Athens furious over Fyrom's insult

[Peris]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

a Fyrom magazine cartoon : our PM the...Nazi:)

http://www.forum.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx

Heil Kostas:) you have even won the Iron Cross


http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s400/karamanlis.png (http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s1600-h/karamanlis.png)




http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getthumb&docid=6291127

Athens furious over Skopje insult

Greece angrily condemns insult to nat'l symbol on Skopje billboards
Greece reacted angrily on Sunday to an unprecedented provocation in the neighbouring Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), as several outdoor billboards in the capital of Skopje depicted an adulterated Greek flag, with the blue Cross morphed into a Swastika.
"This unacceptable poster, which was circulated via a private initiative and raised on Skopje's streets, directly insults our country's national symbol and our struggle against fascism and Nazism," a foreign ministry spokesman tersely said on Sunday afternoon in response to a press question.
"This incident demonstrates the huge mistake made by those that invest in chauvinism and bigotry. It also confirms, yet again, the correctness of Greece's position, namely, that a necessary condition for the establishment of relations of solidarity and relations amongst allies is, in practice, respect of good-neighbourly relations between countries and peoples," spokesman George Koumoutsakos emphasised, speaking days before a NATO summit will consider admission for landlocked FYROM.
The spokesman also announced that Greece's diplomatic representative in the neighbouring one-time Yugoslav state has been instructed to table Athens' severe protest over the provocation to FYROM's foreign ministry as well as to demand the immediate removal of the offensive billboard.
The Swastika imagery on the Greek flag -- in place of the Cross -- was the first item covered by most television news programmes in Greece on Sunday evening, touching on a particularly sensitive nerve, given that the east Mediterranean country sustained monumental damages and loss of life during World War II during successive Italian and German invasions, followed by a triple occupation (1941-1944) by Nazi German, Italian fascist and Bulgarian troops.
According to an ANA-MPA dispatch from Skopje, the controversial billboard ads ostensibly promote a photographic exhibition in the city's cultural centre from April 3 to May 3.



http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=6291328&maindocimg=6291127&service=102

[Bongopete]

And so what are they going to do about it? Complain and put up billboards of their own?

[Mr.Flint]

So Greece doesnt believe in freedom of speech and expression? p-)

[Switek]

Well It's not bad artistic taste. It's just unnecessary political provocation which should be condemned.

[Vorian]

And so what are they going to do about it? Complain and put up billboards of their own?

We are more mature than that. Just veto the hell out of them whenever we can.

[Amateur]

So Greece doesnt believe in freedom of speech and expression? p-)
You 're kidding, right?
What has freedom of expression have to do with insulting somebody else's national symbols?
In Greece, desacrating another country's symbols is a crime.

[Bongopete]

You 're kidding, right?
What has freedom of expression have to do with insulting somebody else's national symbols?
In Greece, desacrating another country's symbols is a crime.

lol hey, ours is descecrated all the time.

[Mordoror]

of course this was totaly unnecessary and utterly stupid

on the other way, until anybody demonstrate that it is guided from the power or some political high level officials it remains something in a street magazine, no more no less.....
so does Greek reaction is not a little "overkill"


edit : We are more mature than that. Just veto the hell out of them whenever we can

just says lol ....

[chris450]

it doesnt have to be guided,allowing it happen is a provocation too

i mean 6m banners all over the capital ,cmon its hardly something that goes unoticed

anyway they just shot themselves in the foot, i hope they enjoy the banners

[Vorian]

lol hey, ours is descecrated all the time.

Wow, we have reached superpower status. :D

[Switek]

...
In Greece, desacrating another country's symbols is a crime.

AFAIK in my country too. And this is a good rule.

[Bongopete]

And why the use of nazi symbology? What has Greece done to make that analogy?

[Mordoror]

i
mean 6m banners all over the capital ,cmon its hardly something that goes unoticed
on that I agree

However you just forgotten that FYROM is a democracry (not so perfect but ...) and that freedom of speech is a basic of that kind of government

so do not look for researched provocation as this assertion
allowing it happen is a provocation too let think

Just to be clear I am not looking for excuses for that, as I said it is utterly stupid especially in the timeline here and now.
But as AFAIK this magazine is not a state controled one, you cannot control everything which is written
and for the pannels you should know that everybody do a little what he wants in the Balkan until a police officer come and knock some asses.

Afterall when some Greeks hooligans spitted and stomped on Macedonian flags nobody throw such a hell on an diplomatic level (This last assertion is not to say look, here are the good guys, here are the bad guys but just to remind you that provocative and unuseful behavior occurs everywhere )

[Amateur]

And why the use of nazi symbology? What has Greece done to make that analogy?

Beats me...
Greece has one of the finest resistance records against the nazis during WW II (see for example http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm (http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm) and
http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol2/articles/griff.html (http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol2/articles/griff.html)).
On the other hand, Skopje (at the time under Bulgarian influence and with no "Macedonian" identity) welcomed them, as we can see in this picture

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6935/naziskopjery6.jpg

Accusing Greeks of being nazis is a really twisted way of looking at history...

[Vorian]

The Greek government just tries to capitulate what happened for its own benefit. It's called diplomacy and we are rarely good at it. Just check how many have recognized them as "Macedonia", you will get what I mean

[Switek]

And why the use of nazi symbology? What has Greece done to make that analogy?

Couse in vast majority Greeks were victims of Nazi invasion in WW2. What Greece done? Hm, what USA done to stop leftists in 1947 would be more appropriate question..

[Telmar]

Beyond the obvious insult to Greece on this occasion, which I find unacceptable, there is something that I find just as unacceptable with the use of nazi symbols all the time when describing people you have issues with.

Everybody is someone's nazi today.

I am sick of seeing this f+cking cross and SS uniforms becoming common.

[Marmot1]

So Greece doesnt believe in freedom of speech and expression? p-)

There is limit even in freedom...

[Mordoror]

Everybody is someone's nazi today.

so f***g and sadly true

welcome to our marvellous world full of wisdom

sometimes I get tired of all this and wishes Darwin rules to be more harsh :
stupidity should be lethal

[Zombie Squad]

What a Greek flag in Macedonia, I thought Macedonia was Macedonia??

[Amateur]

What a Greek flag in Macedonia, I thought Macedonia was Macedonia??
You can see plenty of Greek flags in true Macedonia, in Greece.
This is a forged flag in a forged country...
And you should keep in mind that the degree of respect for the opponent always shows one's degree of self-respect. Desacrating somebody else's flag and history shows a lot about your people.

[Zombie Squad]

Take a closer look at the flag. You see the family and the children, thats Macedonians you told to only speak Greek and convert the names to Greek from now on. So nothing wrong with the flag. It was 1913 when Greece occupied Aegean Macedonia, why where Greece so afraid about the Macedonians to wipe out there identity? Something more you have to say about desecrating somebody's identity and history?

Why did I even bother participating in this thread :cantbeli:

[Zombie Squad]

Beats me...
Greece has one of the finest resistance records against the nazis during WW II (see for example http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm (http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm) and
http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol2/articles/griff.html (http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/scanlink/nornotes/vol2/articles/griff.html)).
On the other hand, Skopje (at the time under Bulgarian influence and with no "Macedonian" identity) welcomed them, as we can see in this picture



Accusing Greeks of being nazis is a really twisted way of looking at history...

Don't mix Macedonians with Nazi Germany, this was Bulgarian agenda, nothing Macedonian autorities had anything to say about. Besides Macedonians resistence groups where fighting with the Partisans against the the Germans, Bulgarinans, Serbs and Albanians whitch the last three all had a interest in having a peace of land of the area.

[achilles]

Why did I even bother participating in this thread :cantbeli:

I was wondering the same thing. Its not too late to remediate that mistake though, by simply staying out. Lets say...for the sake of this thread.

Unless you have something constructive to say, which i highly doubt.

[achilles]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

a Fyrom magazine cartoon : our PM the...Nazi:)

http://www.forum.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx

Heil Kostas:) you have even won the Iron Cross


http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s400/karamanlis.png (http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s1600-h/karamanlis.png)




http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getthumb&docid=6291127

Athens furious over Skopje insult

Greece angrily condemns insult to nat'l symbol on Skopje billboards
Greece reacted angrily on Sunday to an unprecedented provocation in the neighbouring Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), as several outdoor billboards in the capital of Skopje depicted an adulterated Greek flag, with the blue Cross morphed into a Swastika.
"This unacceptable poster, which was circulated via a private initiative and raised on Skopje's streets, directly insults our country's national symbol and our struggle against fascism and Nazism," a foreign ministry spokesman tersely said on Sunday afternoon in response to a press question.
"This incident demonstrates the huge mistake made by those that invest in chauvinism and bigotry. It also confirms, yet again, the correctness of Greece's position, namely, that a necessary condition for the establishment of relations of solidarity and relations amongst allies is, in practice, respect of good-neighbourly relations between countries and peoples," spokesman George Koumoutsakos emphasised, speaking days before a NATO summit will consider admission for landlocked FYROM.
The spokesman also announced that Greece's diplomatic representative in the neighbouring one-time Yugoslav state has been instructed to table Athens' severe protest over the provocation to FYROM's foreign ministry as well as to demand the immediate removal of the offensive billboard.
The Swastika imagery on the Greek flag -- in place of the Cross -- was the first item covered by most television news programmes in Greece on Sunday evening, touching on a particularly sensitive nerve, given that the east Mediterranean country sustained monumental damages and loss of life during World War II during successive Italian and German invasions, followed by a triple occupation (1941-1944) by Nazi German, Italian fascist and Bulgarian troops.
According to an ANA-MPA dispatch from Skopje, the controversial billboard ads ostensibly promote a photographic exhibition in the city's cultural centre from April 3 to May 3.



http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=6291328&maindocimg=6291127&service=102

I dont mind with what the Upper/New/Independent/Liberated/Free/SlavoBulgar/YouNameIt "Macedonians" did. :lol:

It just shows the quality of their argumentation, how desperate they are to join NATO and EU - which by all chances wont be happening anytime soon -and how warm and fuzzy hiding in Bush's and Condi's underwear is.

Its a good thing that the government in Skopje condemned this action, though....even a bit late...

[Mr.Flint]

There is limit even in freedom...
Who sets that limit? how do you decide to set this limit?
Why a Greek flag with a swastika should not be allowed, when Greece allows publications of anti semitic materials?

[achilles]

Who sets that limit? how do you decide to set this limit?
Why a Greek flag with a swastika should not be allowed, when Greece allows publications of anti semitic materials?

Which are those anti-semitic materials exactly? And how do they differ from any sort of anti-semitic materials published in any country around the world?

[Mr.Flint]

Which are those anti-semitic materials exactly? And how do they differ from any sort of anti-semitic materials published in any country around the world?
You are avoiding my question. But how about Stochos, making a series out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

You cant demand others to respect your national symbols (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression) if you do not do so in your own country (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression).

[chris450]

Who sets that limit? how do you decide to set this limit?
Why a Greek flag with a swastika should not be allowed, when Greece allows publications of anti semitic materials?

coz beeing anti-semite,anti-greek,anti-eskimo or anti-congolese is an opinion and you are entitled to one as long as you express it within the boundaries of the law (those boundaries are very clear and they cannot be misintrepreted)

desecrating the israeli,bulgarian,greek,german,french national symbol is not an opinion ,its a direct insult(meant to provoke) to everything the flag stands for ,a whole nation and its history (and thats why its a crime in many countries of the world)

not to mention that this indirect accusation of beeing Nazis is coming from people who colaborated with them when Greece was under the German boot

the difference is self-evident i think

PS what about Stoxos?

[achilles]

You are avoiding my question. But how about Stochos, making a series out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

You cant demand others to respect your national symbols (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression) if you do not do so in your own country (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression).

I think you are avoiding my questions instead.

Anti-semitic publications or criticism of Israel in general (those two are very often confused) are of course subject to the very essential freedoms of speech and expression, both of which, allow me to say, are highly enjoyed in Greece.

To get the discussion straight, when did Greece allow the defacing of a Semitic sacred symbol, like a flag? But yes, we do allow "anti-semitic" criticism or fairy tales about world conspiracies just like any other country does.

And one more question, just in case you answer this time, although i think Chris already beat you to it...what does freedom of speech has to do with insulting a country's one and only sacred national symbol?

[achilles]

not to mention that this indirect accusation of beeing Nazis is coming from people who colaborated with them when Greece was under the German boot


Its funny that back then they had their national identity set straight in their minds...they were Bulgarians (they still are, by-and-large) and thats how they used to identify themselves...Bulgarians (well maybe Makedonski Bulgarians) being a foreign element - and ALWAYS a minority - on Macedonian, i.e. Hellenic, soil.

I think the fact that we are now negotiating a composite name for Republica Vardarska-Skopje-FYROM is more than generous. We have come more than half way through. Its up to them to meet our fair requests and save themselves from backwardness by joining NATO and the EU.

[Zombie Squad]

Exactly I don't, no need to waste time with wannabe politicians thinking they have the solution for every question. I will let the politicians that actually are politicians solve the questions. And if you think you are one of them you wouldn't be here posting your own ignorance. I accept Greece condemns
"a necessary condition for the establishment of relations of solidarity and relations amongst allies is, in practice, respect of good-neighbourly relations between countries and peoples"

And Amatuer is pretty clever with his "beats me" ^ Achilles would you be respected if you would say what you are saying right now if you where a spokesman representing Greece in foreign affairs. I only see propaganda coming from your mouth and thats why I'm discued with threads like this when Greeks really make a show of how discusting they think.

[achilles]

I only see propaganda coming from your mouth and thats why I'm discued with threads like this when Greeks really make a show of how discusting they think.

I have already said that i dont blame you, or the likes of you, my friend. You have been brainwashed ever since the day you were born. Your ethnic identity is an artificial creation but you will never, EVER understand that. I dont expect you to. And the brainwashing i am referring to goes back a few generations so that makes it even worse.

Too bad for you that history, evidence and common sense is on our side. Lucky you, this is not a history forum although you are always welcomed to present your thesis (and we can begin by the arrival of your ancestors in the region 1000 years after ancient Macedonia's peak) so we can argue over it. Then we will see who is disgusting, misled, braiwashed, a liar, a propagandist...and who is not.

I have challenged you before but as i said.....sound argumentation is not your best bet.

Time for me to hit the sack gentlemen...

[Peris]

You are avoiding my question. But how about Stochos, making a series out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

You cant demand others to respect your national symbols (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression) if you do not do so in your own country (ie restrict freedom of speech and expression).


Mr Flint you are lecturing the wrong people about antisemitism:


Greek neo-Nazi gets 14 months for book denying the Holocaust

http://www.ejpress.org/article/22508



and when all others kept silent during Nazi occupation the Greek Orthodox Archishop and other prominent figures sent this letter playing their lives to the puppet Greek pm:



According to the The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation the appeal of Damaskinos and his fellow Greeks is unique as no document similar to the protest against the Nazis during World War II has come to light in any other European country:


Damaskinos went on to publish the letter, even though the local Schutzstaffel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel) commander, Jürgen Stroop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Stroop), threatened to execute him by firing squad. Damaskinos's famous response to him was:
“According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hanged and not shot. Please respect our traditions!.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Damaskinos#_note-USHMM)”
The churches under his jurisdiction were also ordered quietly by Damaskinos to distribute baptismal certificates to Jews fleeing the Nazis, saving thousands of Romaniote Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romaniotes) in and around Athens


full letter:

Archbishop Damaskinos and Greek Intellectuals Protest Persecution of Greek Jewry

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/greekbishop.html

[Peris]

notice that the fyrom posters in the bottom write: Cultural and informations centerp-)

and just a simple question: you have a problem with another country, negotiations are ongoing there is still time to reach a solution and you decide to play dirty ,insulting a country as Nazis who btw lost about its 4,5% of population in WW2?

and these people will be NATO allies? imagine how the enemies must be:)

[Mr.Flint]

Funny that you still havent answered my question.
As for yours, it is nothing but an attempt to sidestep the topic in question, and its being Greece not other european countries...

Burning or desecrating a flag, is as insulting and provocative as a publication, or politicians words. either you criminalize them all, or none. there is no middle ground.

Anyway were any greeks arrested for desecration of other countries flags? Like for burning American flags? or for painting swastikas on Israeli flags?

@Peris
if anyone of you had bothered to read and understand what i wrote, rather than bask in the holy rage at the offensiveness of the Fyromian prank, you would have realized that i do no such thing as accusing greeks of antisemitism,
im merely stating that getting your panties in a twist, just because someone "desecrated" your flag is silly, especially when its done in greece, without much concequences.

[Peris]

and something dedicated to all Fyromians who think themselves as '' Macedonians''woot


Ljubčo Georgievski is a poet and politician from the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) and former Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister) and Vice President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President) of the country. In 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999) he was listed in the Guinness Book of Records (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Book_of_Records) as being the world's youngest Prime Minister. He was 32 years old when he took office


Professional and political biography

1990-2002 President of the VMRO-DPMNE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMRO-DPMNE)
1991-Vice President of the Republic of Macedonia
1992-1995 Representative in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia
1995-1998 Consulting in BS Consulting-Skopje
1998-2002 Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia
2002-2007 President of the VMRO People's Party
On July 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_14), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006) it was announced that Ljubčo Georgievski applied for and was granted Bulgarian citizenship on the basis that his parents are Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) and that he has a Bulgarian national identity.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljub%C4%8Do_Georgievski#cite_note-0)

rofl

[Zeev]

coz beeing anti-semite,anti-greek,anti-eskimo or anti-congolese is an opinion and you are entitled to one as long as you express it within the boundaries of the law (those boundaries are very clear and they cannot be misintrepreted)


in countries which care about this problem, like in france or in germany, racism isn't an opinion, it is a crime..

[Peris]

Funny that you still havent answered my question.
As for yours, it is nothing but an attempt to sidestep the topic in question, and its being Greece not other european countries...

Burning or desecrating a flag, is as insulting and provocative as a publication, or politicians words.

Anyway were any greeks arrested for desecration of other countries flags? Like for burning American flags? or for painting swastikas on Israeli flags?

@Peris
Actually im not accusing greeks of antisemitism,
im merely stating that getting your panties in a twist, just because someone "desecrated" your flag is silly, especially when its done in greece, without much concequences.



ofcourse every person who desecrates ANY national flag is punished under law when he is arrested. Many were sent to court for burning the US flags others were not depending if there was police capacity to arrest them. If you are talking about Israeli flag with the swastika yes it qualifies to be punishable under law. However most of the times here ih Greece this happens by anarchists:



http://www.afipnisis.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/kapsimo_simaiasxnzcdvbov7cr.jpg





You are missing the point: it's only the flag.it's years of antiHellenic background and teachings to these people and most notably their leaders.


You as a foreigner can't possibly now that some of the Fyrom elite is actually ex Greek communists who fleed there when the Greek civil war ended and they lost. After that Tito closed the borders and they stayed inside Fyrom. They never forgived Greece for winning this anticommunist war and they educated their youngsters to believe that they are ''Macedonians''.

[Zeev]

I think you are avoiding my questions instead.

Anti-semitic publications or criticism of Israel in general (those two are very often confused)


considering that israel is the only jewish country in the world, be against its existance, it is be against the right of the Jews to live in their own land like all the other peoples have the right to, so this is like consider that they have not the same rights than the other peoples in the world, so finally, yes being against the right of israel to exist, it is being against the jewish people.

criticize the israeli policies can be absolutely understandable, like all the world countries policies can be criticized.

[Mr.Flint]

ofcourse every person who desecrates ANY national flag is punished under law when he is arrested. Many were sent to court for burning the US flags others were not depending if there was police capacity to arrest them. You are missing the point: it's only the flag.it's years of antiHellenic background and teachings to these people and most notably their leaders.


You as a foreigner can't possibly now that some of the Fyrom elite is actually ex Greek communists who fleed there when the Greek civil war ended and they lost. After that Tito closed the borders and they stayed inside Fyrom. They never forgived Greece for winning this anticommunist war and they educated their youngsters to believe that they are ''Macedonians''.
Please provide me with documented cases of flag desecrators being arrested, because i sincerely have hard time believing that.
As for the rest, frankly i care little about your issues with Fyromians - they are silly, and give the impression of two little kids in a sandbox.

[Zombie Squad]

and something dedicated to all Fyromians who think themselves as '' Macedonians''woot


Ljubčo Georgievski is a poet and politician from the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) and former Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister) and Vice President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President) of the country. In 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999) he was listed in the Guinness Book of Records (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Book_of_Records) as being the world's youngest Prime Minister. He was 32 years old when he took office


Professional and political biography

1990-2002 President of the VMRO-DPMNE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMRO-DPMNE)
1991-Vice President of the Republic of Macedonia
1992-1995 Representative in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia
1995-1998 Consulting in BS Consulting-Skopje
1998-2002 Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia
2002-2007 President of the VMRO People's PartyOn July 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_14), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006) it was announced that Ljubčo Georgievski applied for and was granted Bulgarian citizenship on the basis that his parents are Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) and that he has a Bulgarian national identity.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljub%C4%8Do_Georgievski#cite_note-0)

rofl

What has this to do with the topic?

[V.I.D.]

Beyond the obvious insult to Greece on this occasion, which I find unacceptable, there is something that I find just as unacceptable with the use of nazi symbols all the time when describing people you have issues with.

Everybody is someone's nazi today.

I am sick of seeing this f+cking cross and SS uniforms becoming common.
__________________________________________________________________

I agree 100% with this post.

Zombie Squad, did I just see that? You have seriously put the Serbs in the group with WW2-period Germany, Bulgaria, and Albania?
This explains why most FYROManians don't know who their true friends are (just keep appeasing Albanian secessionists at home, that will "help you" in the long run) and why Greece has every right to defend its history and honor against such ungrateful neighbors. I'm one hundred percent with the Greek brothers on this one.

[Peris]

I think you are avoiding my questions instead.

Anti-semitic publications or criticism of Israel in general (those two are very often confused) are of course subject to the very essential freedoms of speech and expression, both of which, allow me to say, are highly enjoyed in Greece.

To get the discussion straight, when did Greece allow the defacing of a Semitic sacred symbol, like a flag? But yes, we do allow "anti-semitic" criticism or fairy tales about world conspiracies just like any other country does.

And one more question, just in case you answer this time, although i think Chris already beat you to it...what does freedom of speech has to do with insulting a country's one and only sacred national symbol?




btw my town's local Rabbi, a Greek citizen ( also i presume has an Israeli citisenship) is walking in the town center wearing tie with the Israeli flag.
I don't know in which other countries he would also be passed by without any interest or incidents.:) i found a photo of one interview. His grandfather was killed fighting the Italians in ww2 and he earlier was held prisoner by Turks in 1922 in Asia Minor.







http://ta-nea.dolnet.gr/data/D2006/D1027/1el22d.jpg

[Peris]

What has this to do with the topic?


when your ex PM discoveres he is really a Bulgarian in origin maby you must do a little endoscopy too.

I am not translating the term endoscopy as a '' Macedonian'' you must know it:)

[Peris]

Please provide me with documented cases of flag desecrators being arrested, because i sincerely have hard time believing that.
As for the rest, frankly i care little about your issues with Fyromians - they are silly, and give the impression of two little kids in a sandbox.


i will try but man its really late here 4 in the morning:)being with you guys left me only three hours to sleep

about our issues with Fyromians check what the US were saying in 1944 -no kids here budy-just hard politics



Historical U.S. diplomat's telex vs FYROMians
U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations. Vol. VIII
Washington D.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124788

[Zombie Squad]

when your ex PM discoveres he is really a Bulgarian in origin maby you must do a little endoscopy too.

I am not translating the term endoscopy as a '' Macedonian'' you must know it:)

Ok, got it now, really thanks for the explenation. BTW Macedonians don't do endoscopy.

[BW2]

Zombie Squad, did I just see that? You have seriously put the Serbs in the group with WW2-period Germany, Bulgaria, and Albania?
This explains why most FYROManians don't know who their true friends are (just keep appeasing Albanian secessionists at home, that will "help you" in the long run) and why Greece has every right to defend its history and honor against such ungrateful neighbors. I'm one hundred percent with the Greek brothers on this one. I was just about to say the same thing.

And I'm sure the Greeks won't lose any sleep over veto now...

[diminiko]

My friends ,personally i believe that the <<Macedonian matter>> is a weapon for the US diplomats to push Greek Government and assist at U.S policy at the Balkanian Region. FYROM are muppets.... About FYROM's youth, what do you expect from them to say. The propaganda begins from the school, from what is written at their books. MACEDONIA IS ONE AND ITS GREEK

[chris450]

in countries which care about this problem, like in france or in germany, racism isn't an opinion, it is a crime..

here you are making a fundamental mistake..beeing an anti-semite (ie not liking israelites) ,anti-arab or beeing anti-greek or beeing anti-x for X reasons is your god-given right and nobody cant prevent you from feeling that way...

but that does not equate with racism...you become racist when instead of just of having negative feelings ,you go on and break the law by doing something RACIST as beating up a Jew simply coz you he is one,burn a mosque coz you dont like arabs ,bomb a consolate coz you hate Greeks etc etc etc

THATS a crime,and its punishable...freedom of expression (within the limits of the law) is not a crime,and cannot be a crime
there is no such thing as "mind police",and for all our sakes there should never be one

on the topic at hand, our neighbours have every right to hate us if the want too...but when they smash our consolate ,start to push around Greek investors ,and insult our national symbol with 6m banners in their capital ,it becomes more than "a statement"

and i hope it shall be dealt in the proper way

[Snoshi]

here you are making a fundamental mistake..beeing an anti-semite (ie not liking israelites) ,anti-arab or beeing anti-greek or beeing anti-x is your god-given right and nobody cant prevent you from feeling that way...

but that does not equate with racism...you become racist when instead of just of having negative feelings ,you go on and break the law by doing something RACIST as beating up a Jew simply coz you he is one,burn a mosque coz you dont like arabs ,bomb a consolate coz you hate Greeks etc etc etc

THATS a crime,and its punishable...freedom of expression (within the limits of the law) is not a crime,and cannot be a crime
there is no such thing as "mind police",and for all our sakes there should never be one

on the topic at hand, our neighbours have every right to hate us if the want too...but when they smash our consolate ,start to push around Greek investors ,and insult our national symbol with 6m banners in their capital ,it becomes more than "a statement"

and i hope it shall be dealt in the proper way

Wait wait.. You say that having racist opinions is ok and not punishable.. But at the same time you get mad at anti-Greek poster in other countries?

[chris450]

nope, read my post again,its crystal clear :)

[Mordoror]

funny to see that our Greek firends complain about a flag insult but in the same time use insulting assertion on Macedonia/FYROM and its people

as I said before a shame that Darwin rules are so weak concerning the stupidity of some kind of my human fellows .....
we then would have a more peacefull balkan and more peacefull internet posts

[Amateur]

@ Snoshi:

Wait wait.. You say that having racist opinions is ok and not punishable.. But at the same time you get mad at anti-Greek poster in other countries?
Let's not mix apples and oranges here...
Whether racist opinions and/or behaviour should be tolerated as part of the freedom of expression, and to which extent, is a widely debated issue, and a difficult one (BTW in Greece, a known antisemite was recently sentenced to imprisonment for denying the Holocaust (http://www.ejpress.org/article/22508), so I wouldn't say Greece tolerates racist opinions)

But desacrating another country's flag, is a different issue, and it is punishable by law, at least in Greece. It may be an expression of racist opinion, or perhaps not; but it is morally wrong (and legally punishable) as such, not as an expression of racism. I.e. it is morally wrong because it insults another nation and its symbols, not because it regards them as racially inferior.
I hope that was a clear distinction.

@Mordoror:


as I said before a shame that Darwin rules are so weak concerning the stupidity of some kind of my human fellows .....
we then would have a more peacefull balkan and more peacefull internet posts

I absolutely agree with you ;) But I guess even Darwin couldn't have thought of such a historic fraud like yours...

[chris450]

insulting assertion? history is not "an insulting assertion" its just history , distorting it IS an insulting assertion and you cant keep doing it on our expence

mind you ,talk of "insulting assertions" in a thread containing this pic..pot kettle black

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

[achilles]

funny to see that our Greek firends complain about a flag insult but in the same time use insulting assertion on Macedonia/FYROM and its people

as I said before a shame that Darwin rules are so weak concerning the stupidity of some kind of my human fellows .....
we then would have a more peacefull balkan and more peacefull internet posts

Funny to see that you have no clue on the issue, and your opinion is clearly skewed towards....the wrong side.

We are being insulted here not the FYROMians, mate. We wont monopolize the name (even though we could), we just want to meet somewhere in the middle. They can call themselves Chimpanzees if they like, we couldnt care less, we just want to geographically separate our regions and counter their shameless and blatant irredentist propaganda.


Update your information, read some history on Macedonia and then get back to us.

Thanks in advance.

[achilles]

Wait wait.. You say that having racist opinions is ok and not punishable.. But at the same time you get mad at anti-Greek poster in other countries?

You, among others around here, cannot understand the difference between racism, antisemitism, criticism and a straightforward and shameless INSULT of a sacred national symbol, can you?

[Mordoror]

the wrong side.



wrong I am just bored of this neverendless clue that looks like a teenager bragging discussion


their shameless and blatant irredentist propaganda.


welcome in our marvellous word, you are the only white angels
let's says that from my point of view (one more time) both side are looking for trouble each on is own timeline so do not make you to be the only victim of the issue


Update your information, read some history on Macedonia and then get back to us.


please do not make me to be not informed
I do not known how much you are old but assume that I a not a teenage hooligan and that international relationship are something I can say I am relatively well aware off (and when I see some posters here I wonder if I am not in a better way than some only one way orientated MP members)
So please keep your lessons, I am tired of that kind of posting which is the best way to make me run amok.
And let's say that I try to see this issue in the most neutral way (even if you think I see it in a biased way but sorry to say that your point of view is far from neutral)
so i will repeat myself but there is no white angels on that issue
provocating events occurs from both side of the border because of stupid nationalistic behavior which is the scourge of the balkans (patriotism is a good thing, nationalism is a very stupid one)
You are just insisting on the guilty of only one side
This whole event is a stupid one and should have not occured but when I see the posts of some of your greek fellows, they should also know to clean their own home sometimes





we just want to meet somewhere in the middle.


on that we at less agree

[chris450]

acts ,acts mate not words...talk is cheap

acts tell a different story

[Mordoror]

so funny to see so enlighted writting. My posts are enough detailed to make you undertand what i think
and i do not feel concerned by your "words or action"
I never desacrated a Greek flag (or any other flag by any means) and as i said (maybe I should write it in plain grass font to make you see it better)
this action was stupid !!!
the damn thing is that on that issue i agree with you
But Now if you put everybody in the same bag because people do not agree with you at 100% or because of people origin ok it shows exactly what i said above i.e a constructive discussion is impossible

life is neither either white or black but a full pannel of grey
so for an action of a minority you throw all the babies with the bath water...
too simple...

[chris450]

i dont recall claiming you desacrated any flag...if did accept my sincere apologies

that said ,please dont play the "savage minority" card..it wasnt a long time ago we saw their PM (leader of nationalist VMRO–DPMNE) paying his respects under an irredentist map with half of Greece in it..

a coincidence that repeats itself ,ceases to be a coincidence

[achilles]

i dont recall claiming you desacrated any flag..

I dont either...


that said ,please dont play the "savage minority" card..it wasnt a long time ago we saw their PM (leader of nationalist VMRO–DPMNE) paying his respects under an irredentist map with half of Greece in it..

I am sure that he and his ultra-nationalist government officialy condemns those unspeakable maps and other irredentist and provocative actions.

Still, they sponsor blatant propaganda all over the internet. There is discrepancy between what happens officialy and "off the record" here. I am interested in what is going on under the table.

[chris450]

thats why i said that talk is cheap..actions speak louder than words

[Peris]

funny to see that our Greek firends complain about a flag insult but in the same time use insulting assertion on Macedonia/FYROM and its people

as I said before a shame that Darwin rules are so weak concerning the stupidity of some kind of my human fellows .....
we then would have a more peacefull balkan and more peacefull internet posts



let me ask this: from a diplomatic point of view how do you consider the flag and PM insults in the crucial time of possible agreement with US intervention? Because the negotiation was still ongoing at least before the Fyrom's choice of insults. Now it's terminated 99%.

[Peris]

thats why i said that talk is cheap..actions speak louder than words


speaking of actions i hear all day in work that is time to give economic motives to Greek companies located in Fyrom to repatriate.

[80 EAN]

Well It's not bad artistic taste. It's just unnecessary political provocation which should be condemned.

Not bad artistic taste??????
This is insulting for a country that fought and suffered under German occupation during WWII.

[Peris]

The news is that the posters are part of a fair organised by the mayor of the Fyrom's capital Skopje.woot

[heintzX]

great,i just won a bet....i knew that there is going to be a thread on MPnet about the posters........

[Switek]

Not bad artistic taste??????
This is insulting for a country that fought and suffered under German occupation during WWII.


Yo've just proved my words :roll: and you had miss my point...

[Mordoror]

let me ask this: from a diplomatic point of view how do you consider the flag and PM insults in the crucial time of possible agreement with US intervention? Because the negotiation was still ongoing at least before the Fyrom's choice of insults. Now it's terminated 99%


do you sometimes read other posters or do you stay agitating yourself on that issue without taking account of what say the others MP members.
My feeling is in bold font on the page 4
to make it clear one more time (last time because i feel sometime i am talking to walls) here it is :

This was stupid

[eskachig]

considering that israel is the only jewish country in the world, be against its existance, it is be against the right of the Jews to live in their own land like all the other peoples have the right to, so this is like consider that they have not the same rights than the other peoples in the world, so finally, yes being against the right of israel to exist, it is being against the jewish people.No, not really. You can be all for the right of Jewish people to live and practice their religion in peace and still think that the creation of Israel was a mistake (I personally don't, but there's definitely a good argument to be made).

[Vassago]

As much as i remember most of the Greeks were thinking that the Muhammed cartoons were the freedom of speech. I guess it is harder to tell the "freedom of speech" stories when you are the one being insulted.

By the way i think the both cases are not freedom of speech. This is just insult nothing more.

[Paya]

Not to take sides in the Macedonia issue, but this:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

this is just plain wrong. The fight of the Greek people against nazism and facism is well documented and well known. It's also mind numbingly unoriginal.


http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s400/karamanlis.png (http://bp0.blogger.com/_DEHGONdgRh4/R_DeC3znhEI/AAAAAAAABeA/rtT2X_Mb1Mo/s1600-h/karamanlis.png)

Oh, and this is pure gold. It's just so subtle, witty, not to mention the symbolism so easily overlooked by those less educated. I forsee great things for the artist.

[80 EAN]

As much as i remember most of the Greeks were thinking that the Muhammed cartoons were the freedom of speech. I guess it is harder to tell the "freedom of speech" stories when you are the one being insulted.

By the way i think the both cases are not freedom of speech. This is just insult nothing more.



Oh, really?

Can you prove this or just guessing?

[chris450]

As much as i remember most of the Greeks were thinking that the Muhammed cartoons were the freedom of speech. I guess it is harder to tell the "freedom of speech" stories when you are the one being insulted.

By the way i think the both cases are not freedom of speech. This is just insult nothing more.

correct me if i'm wrong but most practising muslims would consider a woman without a head cover an insult too.....

the analogy is very clear indeed lol...

we havent issued any Jihadi threats yet,nope...no western journalist lost his head either..feeling insulted does not nessesarily equate with bombing buses , and chopping heads off , i guess that doesnt compute for some people

[Hollis]

correct me if i'm wrong but most practising muslims would consider a woman without a head cover an insult too.....

the analogy is very clear indeed lol...

we havent issued any Jihadi threats yet,nope...no western journalist lost his head either..feeling insulted does not nessesarily equate with bombing buses , and chopping heads off , i guess that doesnt compute for some people


I haven't seen any threats of violence, So yes big difference in the response here between Greece and those cartoons.


Actually what is interesting are the free speech comments.

If it is free speech to insult, but not free speech to challenge those insults then why?

I don't think Greece's challenge to those insults are a violation of free speech, it is a expression of free speech.

A violation of free speech would be acting in violence, such as they way some people did with those cartoons.

[Vorian]

Actually my head hurts with all these free speech this and free speech that.


Am I angry they desecrated my flag like this when 500,000 died durng WW2?
I am.


Are they free to do it?
Yes they are.

Are we free to keep them out of every international organisation they want to enter?
Yes.

[Zarkus]

Wow, i just saw this tread and i was wondering were have my Greek friends been hiding.... it's been a long time since the last "LOVE fest".
Seriously thou, do you guys really believe in what you say and write? Do you really think that people are gonna buy this cr*p?
We can put whatever we want on billboards.. Here in Macedonia we believe in the freedom of speech, unlike Gr. where you get banned if you speak on your native language... like for instance Macedonian.
Don't you find it strange that Gr. is the only country in Europe (well i'm not sure about Belorussia) that has no nationalities besides Greeks!? The Macedonians (the real ones) have no rights at all, The Turks are called "the Muslim minority", the Albanians are beaten in police stations on daily bases. Brother... i think your people deserve that flag by Botev. It portrays your country perfectly.
Another thing, veto or no veto, "Herr Karamanlis" und "Frau Bakoyannis" will crall back to Gr. with their tails between their legs. It's 25 NATO members vs. Gr. Well just have to wait and see what'll happen.

[chris450]

Another thing, veto or no veto, "Herr Karamanlis" und "Frau Bakoyannis" will crall back to Gr. with their tails between their legs. It's 25 NATO members vs. Gr. Well just have to wait and see what'll happen.hold that thought Zarkus

no comment on the rest of your delutional rant ,you are an exemplary specimen of what this thread is about ,trully awe-inspiring

[Amateur]

Here in Macedonia we believe in the freedom of speech, unlike Gr. where you get banned if you speak on your native language... like for instance Macedonian.
Don't you find it strange that Gr. is the only country in Europe (well i'm not sure about Belorussia) that has no nationalities besides Greeks!? The Macedonians (the real ones) have no rights at all,
"Macedonian minority"? "native language"? You should know that, because Greece is a free democratic country, a political party promoting the concept and rights of what they describe as the "macedonian minority in Greece", the Rainbow (Ουράνιο Τόξο) - was founded in September 1998, and ran in the 2004 elections. It received 2,955 votes in the whole region of Greek Macedonia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_language_%28Greece%29
That should be about 0,1% rofl
Those are the facts, and they were measured in free general elections. The rest is fairytales.


Brother... i think your people deserve that flag by Botev. It protrays your country perfectly
You need to be taught some manners. No country in the world deserves to have its flag desacrated. If you can't grasp that, you don't belong to the civilized nations.


Another thing, veto or no veto, "Herr Karamanlis" und "Frau Bakoyannis" will crall back to Gr. with their tails between their legs. It's 25 NATO members vs. Gr. Well just have to wait and see what'll happen.
Yes, we 'll see what happens after Greece's veto. You will have lots of fun outside NATO, dealing with the Tetovo Albanians. I 'm sure it will be a delight.

[Peris]

Wow, i just saw this tread and i was wondering were have my Greek friends been hiding.... it's been a long time since the last "LOVE fest".
Seriously thou, do you guys really believe in what you say and write? Do you really think that people are gonna buy this cr*p?
We can put whatever we want on billboards.. Here in Macedonia we believe in the freedom of speech, unlike Gr. where you get banned if you speak on your native language... like for instance Macedonian.
Don't you find it strange that Gr. is the only country in Europe (well i'm not sure about Belorussia) that has no nationalities besides Greeks!? The Macedonians (the real ones) have no rights at all, The Turks are called "the Muslim minority", the Albanians are beaten in police stations on daily bases. Brother... i think your people deserve that flag by Botev. It portrays your country perfectly.
.

The ''Turks'' are called Muslims because Turkey signed this in the Lausanne agreement. There are other Muslims like the Pomaks who have nothing to do with Turks for your info. Those were the original Apomachoi troopers in the Alexander army.

The ones you call ''Macedonians'' did het about 3000 votes in the past elections most votes by leftists.


Speaking of Albanians we have about 700000 inside Greece most of them were illegal aliens and were legalised in order to stay and work and get a chance in life. But if someone feels we are hostile country he can go back to Albania anytime. And the incident with the beatings of Albanians was indeed wrong and recently the police officers involved were thrown out of the police. Let's remember for the record also that the beaten Albanians were convicted rapists and robbers.

we were not bad Nazis when we gave you ten APCs to use in the Tetovo operations ?p-)

[Zarkus]

hold that thought Zarkus

no comment on the rest of your delusional rant ,you are an exemplary specimen of what this thread is about ,trully awe-inspiring

Well Heil Karamanlis to you too Chris. I'm delusional you say... Ok, time will tell.
The tread is about an artistic impression of how the artist sees "modern" Greece, and that is all.
And it just happens that the artist family was part of the Gr. genocide in the late 40's, so... i guess he holds some kind of grudge against your country. Damn, i would.

[Peris]

Well Heil Karamanlis to you too Chris. I'm delusional you say... Ok, time will tell.
The tread is about an artistic impression of how the artist sees "modern" Greece, and that is all.
And it just happens that the artist family was part of the Gr. genocide in the late 40's, so... i guess he holds some kind of grudge against your country. Damn, i would.



you mean they were Greek communists who lost the war and fleed to Fyrom after the end of the Greek civil war? Winning the anticomunist war is considered genociderofl

[chris450]

And the incident with the beatings of Albanians was indeed wrong and recently the police officers involved were thrown out of the police. Let's remember for the record also that the beaten Albanians were convicted rapists and robbers.Nontheless the ones responsible were dishonorably discharged and were thrown in jail ,they broke the law and got what was coming to them

@Peris dont mind Zarkus and his likes,he is just fishing for a reaction,for a proper dialogue both parties should be talking out of the same orifice ,which in this case is a problem

[Zarkus]

we were not bad Nazis when we gave you ten APCs to use in the Tetovo operations ?p-)

10 rusty Leonidas APC's.... are you kidding!? We didn't ask for those, you probably gave them to us because it would be more expensive to cut them into pieces and melt them. Besides, they proved to be a death trap if you were inside. So.... thank's a lot... i guess.

[Peris]

10 rusty Leonidas APC's.... are you kidding!? We didn't ask for those, you probably gave them to us because it would be more expensive to cut them into pieces and melt them. Besides, they proved to be a death trap if you were inside. So.... thank's a lot... i guess.


:cantbeli::cantbeli:we gave a lot to our brothers Cypriots probably to get them killed.

[Zarkus]

you mean they were Greek communists who lost the war and fleed to Fyrom after the end of the Greek civil war? Winning the anticomunist war is considered genociderofl

Anticommunist or not... you have to thank the Brits for that one. it's not like you fought them off by yourselves.

[chris450]

refer to post 84 Peris..

its like Pavlovs experiment, an autistic reaction ,dont even try to reason with that

[Zarkus]

Nontheless the ones responsible were dishonorably discharged and were thrown in jail ,they broke the law and got what was coming to them

@Peris dont mind Zarkus and his likes,he is just fishing for a reaction,for a proper dialogue both parties should be talking out of the same orifice ,which in this case is a problem

Chicken? :-)

[Amateur]

And it just happens that the artist family was part of the Gr. genocide in the late 40's, so... i guess he holds some kind of grudge against your country. Damn, i would.
There's no such thing as a "genocide" - you keep using strong words without any proof here...
In the late 40's there was a civil war going on in Greece, and many slavic-speaking people in Greek Macedonia sided with the communists. When the communists were defeated by the national army, most of them (both slavs and greeks) fled to Albania and Yugoslavia (i.e. the area that is today the FYROM). Anyone who wanted to come back, did so after 1989. This is where the 2,955 votes for the "Rainbow" (Ουράνιο Τόξο) in the 2004 elections came from.
So: no genocide, no persecution, no minority.
Get your facts straight.

[Zarkus]

:cantbeli::cantbeli:we gave a lot to our brothers Cypriots probably to get them killed.

Well... they are still divided, so... i guess that didn't work so well.

[chris450]

yes chicken Zarkus! bye bye and mind the door on the way out!

[Zarkus]

There's no such thing as a "genocide" - you keep using strong words without any proof here...
In the late 40's there was a civil war going on in Greece, and many slavic-speaking people in Greek Macedonia sided with the communists. When the communists were defeated by the national army, most of them (both slavs and greeks) fled to Albania and Yugoslavia (i.e. the area that is today the FYROM). Anyone who wanted to come back, did so after 1989. This is where the 2,955 votes for the "Rainbow" (Ουράνιο Τόξο) in the 2004 elections came from.
So: no genocide, no persecution, no minority.
Get your facts straight.

And you call me brainwashed!? Jesus Christ!

[Peris]

Anticommunist or not... you have to thank the Brits for that one. it's not like you fought them off by yourselves.

the Greek defeated commies ended up ''Macedonians''. That's a major breakthrough in life:)

[Zarkus]

yes chicken Zarkus! bye bye and mind the door on the way out!
Bu Hu Hu... are you gonna report me. You don't like what you hear? It's not by your taste maybe? Ok... do that. It will be a real Greek Democracy.

[Peris]

Well... they are still divided, so... i guess that didn't work so well.


:roll: you need professional help

[Zarkus]

the Greek defeated commies ended up ''Macedonians''. That's a major breakthrough in life:)

And we all know how you deal with Macedonians, right?

[Zarkus]

:roll: you need professional help

Man... you all do.

[chris450]

dont let that (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=24253) ruin this thread ,his agenda is obvious

[Zarkus]

dont let that (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=24253) ruin this thread ,his agenda is obvious

Please explain "my agenda" to me please. Maybe telling the truth about something!? A truth that doesn't suit your taste? Is that my agenda? C'mon... you can do better than that.

[kinmid]

@Zarkus

You need history lessons, then a personality trimming...

Here a free lesson from a master in diplomacy and foreign policy.




The 1992 Top Management Forum Competing in Global Markets
Henry Kissinger
An Analysis of the Global Geopolitical Environment







Management Centre Europe
18-19 June 1992, Paris








2/10/92








This is an abstract of the minutes kept during the annual meeting of Management Centre Europe held in Paris on June. During the questions time at the end of Henry Kissinger's presentation one of the questions was:
"What is your opinion for the problem which Greece have to accept the name Macedonia which the Scopia Government is trying to implement?" Mr Kissiger asked the man who asked the question:
"Are you Greek ?" Reply "Yes"
"Look, I believe that Greece is right to object and I agree with Athens. The reason is that I know History which is not the case with most of the others including most of the Government and Administration in Washington. The strength of the Greek case is that of the History which I must say that Athens have not used so far with success."

:oops::roll:


Too bad that current policy makers in the USA forget so easily, and know so little, of both history and politics in the Balkans.




"According to most reliable information, a secret meeting was held yesterday at Comi in southern bulgaria...to draw up plans for a general rising in Greek Macedonia, with the ultimate object of incorporating that region with Salonica in an automonous Macedonia under Yugoslav hegemony."

THE NEW YORK TIMES
August 19, 1946
"The (State) Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-oficcial statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia... with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation," Macedonian "Fatherland," or Macedonian national "consiousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."

US SECRETARY OF STATE
STETTINIUS
December 26, 1944
"Though once the heart of the empire of Alexander the Great, (Macedonia) has been for centuries a geographical expression rather than a political entity, and is today inhabited by an inextricable medley of people, among whom the Serbs, now Yugoslavs, are certainly the least numerous. But a "Federal Macedonia" has been projected as an integral part of Tito's plan for a federated Balkans...taking Greek Macedonia for an outlet to the Aegean Sea through Salonica."

THE NEW YORK TIMES
July 10, 1946
"The possible creation of a Macedonian free state within Greece to amalgamate with Marshal Tito's Federated Macedonia State, with is capital in Skopje...would fulfill the Slavic objectives of re-uniting the...province of Macedonia under Slavic rule, giving access of the sea to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia."

C. L. Sulzberger
THE NEW YORK TIMES
July 26, 1946
"During the occupation...a combined effort was made to wrest Macedonia from Greece --- an effort that allegedly continues, although in altered form...
The main conspirational activity in Macedonia today appears to be directed from Skopje."

THE NEW YORK TIMES
July 16, 1946
"For three weeks the Partisan National Liberation Committee had been busy creating, on paper, the new Yugoslavia. Twice Tito had flown to Moscow, conferred with Stalin and the Peoples' Commissar for Foreign Affairs Vlacheslav M. Molotov... The new power at once began to expand. Yugoslav Macedonians insisted that Yugoslavia's new Macedonian district should include not only Bulgarian Macedonia but Greek Macedonia."

TIME
December 4, 1944



Nazi's all of them...
:cantbeli:
http://www.hri.org/Martis/images/doc4-lg.jpg

What's that Vardarska thingy down there?
:roll::backhand:




CENTRAL BOARD OF JEWISH COMMUNITIES IN GREECE


2 SOURMELI STR.
GR - 104 39 ATHENS





TEL: (01) 883-9953
CABLES: KENISRAIL - ATHENS






Athens, January 8 1993

To the
Central Boards of the
Jewish Communities of Europe
E.J.C.
W.J.C.
Bnei Berit International
Executive Council
of Australian Jewry
American Jewish Committee

Sirs,
as you cetrainly know after the division of the former Democracy of Yugoslavia to a series of independent small states it has been created the question of the naming of the State of Scopia that is asking to be recognized under the name of Macedonia
Greece does not object to the recognition of this State, that it wants to help materially in every way, but it cannot accept the name Macedonia which since antiquity is related to a plainly Greek region.
Jewish religion and philology consitute the unquestionable witnesses of the ancient ethnoloigical character of Macedonians as Greeks.
Noticeably the prophers Daniel (chap.8, 1-22 chap.2 para.39 4-13, 26-28, 31, 38 chap. 7, 2-7) Isiaiah chap. 19, 20 chap. 19,23 Joel chap.3 v.6, Jeremy, Habacoum chap.2, v.5 and the books of the Maccabees (1st book chap. 1, v.1 & 10 chap. 6 v.2, II 8, 20 III 8) include explicit elements for the greek character of Macedonia.
These very same notions have been supported by the contemporary professors Yigal Yadin (archaiologist, Jerusalem University), George Box (professor of Old Testament, London University), Yacov Messorer (numismatist of the Jerusalem Museum), Erich Graetz (historian Breslow University)
Besides these the Talmoud in relating the friendly meeting between Alexander the Great and the High Priest Simon the Just, on the former's entry into Jerusalem in teh year 330 BC., refers to him as Alexander HaMocdon Meleh Yavan - Alexander the Macedonian, King of Greece. Similar references can be found in Talmoud in teh books "Seder Hadorot" as well as "Megilat Taanit".
Moreover Jewish historians like

Flavius Josephus makes reference to the Greeks of Macedonia and to Greece or Macedonia, sometimes using the one term and sometimes the other, clearly regarding the Macedonians as Greeks and the Greeks as Macedonians (Antiquities of the Jews book 11 para.337, 109, 148, 286, 184 book 8 para.61, 95 100, 154, 312 book 10 para.273 book 12 para.322 & 414 where he includes these Macedonina kings together with Antiochus the Great in teh conquest if the Greek world by the Romans since he regards Macedonia as a Greek province).
Philo of Alexandria refers to the Macedonian King Alexander whom he indentifies with the Greeks.
Maimonides according to whom "thanks to the conquest of Judea by the Greek-Macedonian dynasty the greek learning was transplanted there and contributed to making Hellenism and Judaism acquainted with one another and to the creation of a new philosophical and religious synthesis which opened up new paths and gave new directions to human civilisation".
Numerous well known rabbis.In conclusion we mark Henry's Kissinger characteristic statement at the Management of Europe meeting (Paris, June 1992) "I believe that Greece is right to have objections and I agree with Athens. the reason is that I know history, which is not the case most of the others, including most of the Governement and governement officials in Washington. The strength of the side of Greece is its history".
We lined up all the above data so as to prove you the legitimacy of the Greek aspects as far as it concerns the Greek character of Macedonia and to ask you the full support of these greek postitions to the appropriate personalities of your country.
Sincerely yours
The President --- The Gen. Secretary
[Signatures] Nissim Mais --- Moses Constintinis


It's a Greek Nazi-Jewish consiracy unfolding... I guess...
:bash::backhand:




HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

@Zarkus .....

I disagree with most of your behaviour
By such you are comforting our greeks fellows that all the macedonians are provocatives and look for trouble
You are complaining about greeks way of dealing with Macedonia but you are doing exactly the same way ..... unuseful shortcuts, assertions and put every greeks on the same level....
As I said before some from both side of the boder are very far of wisdom and are putting oil on the fire for only what seem a misplaced pride or a malignant pleasure

[Mordoror]

@ to kinmid

you have already posted that elsewhere on the forum ..... by repeating it here you have a clear flooding behaviour
beside that these issues have been discussed hundred of times on that forum

I do not see anything new or useful in repeating again and again the same
things and providing again and again the same links

PS Citing Kissinger is not something I would be pride if I were you ....dig a little more deep than the average media coverage of this man

[heintzX]

Oh.....finally it backfired for Greece.....That is what whole of EU is trying to point out.......With this attitude Greek government is creating nothing more than radicalism in the region......So now Greece determines on what is to be advertised in Macedonia....The guy paid for the poster......It is not like the government has a censure department.......freedom of speech....radical one maybe but it gives a picture of what will happen maybe in future......

[kinmid]

@Mordoror

Dear co-member...
Similar views in different threads/sections, with similar obvious intensions from several FYROMian respected members, require similar response.
So I just save myself the time re-phrasing alot by just copy-pasting the non-personal parts-quotes on my own posts.
And since I am not breaking any rules so far, you can keep your opinion to yourself.
Thanks for sharing it, but I am not interested in buying any...


P.S.-Edit
And by the way... since you are not me... or any other reading these topics...
Let those reading them actually decide, cause that's all I really care about anyways.



HAVE FUN !!!

[Zarkus]

@Zarkus .....

I disagree with most of your behaviour
By such you are comforting our greeks fellows that all the macedonians are provocatives and look for trouble
You are complaining about greeks way of dealing with Macedonia but you are doing exactly the same way ..... unuseful shortcuts, assertions and put every greeks on the same level....
As I said before some from both side of the boder are very far of wisdom and are putting oil on the fire for only what seem a misplaced pride or a malignant pleasure

I admit that these are difficult times for both our countries... and it's difficult to stay with a cool head. But is there another way to talk with unreasonable people that feed lies to the forum members? Which country has the right to decide how their neighbor will be called. I can think of just ONE country in the world that is trying just that. And to blame Macedonia of not cooperating after it accepted the last Nimitz proposal... which Greece so easily rejected.

[kinmid]

@Zarcus



Which country has the right to decide how will their neighbor will be called.


Let's see...
France for United Kingdom maybe?



unreasonable people that feed lies to the forum members


Which ones?
Like the one that just posted the following for example?


to blame Macedonia of not cooperating after it accepted the last Nimitz proposal... which Greece so easily rejected


And don't get offended since you just called all of us liars in your last post. Seems insults is your national virtue after all.
That's my two cents on your attitude.


HAVE FUN !!!

[achilles]

I do not see anything new or useful in repeating again and again the same
things and providing again and again the same links

What is interesting is that nothing, fruitful, consolidated or contructive came up from the opposite side, as a response to this repetition. Simple put, no FYROMian has EVER refuted in ANY sort of credible way the Greek claims on Macedonia. Thats no coincidence. Its called "lack of evidence" or "artifical history and ethnicity" or "unsubstantiated beliefs".




PS Citing Kissinger is not something I would be pride if I were you ....dig a little more deep than the average media coverage of this man

Since you have done a lot of digging, you should know that Kissinger was never friendly to Greece and this makes any pro-Greek claim coming from his mouth even more valuable than you think. Plus, Kissinger knows a lot of history, even though history was never his guide in conducting foreign policy.


To conclude, your criticism of Zarkus' parasitical presence in this thread is highly appreciated.

[heintzX]

Zarkus dude chill......it is not that Greece is that powerful.....

[achilles]

Zarkus dude chill......it is not that Greece is that powerful.....

Now, this was an elaborate and profound post, carefully crafted with unsurpassable succinctness, hanging there for everyone to relish.

[heintzX]

Now, this was an elaborate and profound post, carefully crafted with unsurpassable succinctness, hanging there for everyone to relish.

And it was not addressed to you.....

[kinmid]

@heintzx

Allow me to dissagree...

Greece is in NATO & EU, so FYROM can't get into those without Greece.
So Greece is strong enough to keep FYROM out of those two.

Greece supports FYROM economy in a very significant size and level, and without it's support FYROM economical survival is questionable, let alone being left outside NATO & EU.

Greece can also deal with FYROM at a level similar to the level currently used by Turkey towards the Republic of Cyprus.
Meaning refusal to access in any and all Greek port and airport facilities for any and all FYROMian interests/ownership ships/planes and companies.
It can also keep FYROM outside any and all international organizations where Greece has a saying for new members.

The embargo is also an option for Greece.


So plenty of options for weak Greece available if it's peaceful "power" is to be called in action some day.



HAVE FUN !!!

[Hollis]

I am going to just close this thread.

I'll reopen it later (in a day or so). Really sounds as though a few people need to cool down a little.