U.S. Declared War with Iran on 3/20/2008?

[ckabusk]

The U.S has been at war with Iran as of Thursday, March 20th?

So who made it official?

http://www.fincen.gov/fin-2008-a002.html
A unit within the US Treasury Department, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), which issued a March 20 advisory to the world's financial institutions under the title: "Guidance to financial institutions on the continuing money laundering threat involving illicit Iranian activity."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8429

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JD01Ak01.html

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/mcglynn240308.html

The US is currently blackmailing all the Banks of the World into not doing any trade with Iran to devastate their economy and provoke them into a war that the media will spin.
IRAN did NOT say it wanted to wipe Israel off the map.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=199_1207580549

[Snoshi]

Not this crap again.. Even the Ahmadinejad's homepage translated hes speech to "Wipe out"...

[Snoshi]

EVER since he spoke at an anti-Zionism conference in Tehran last October, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran has been known for one statement above all. As translated by news agencies at the time, it was that Israel "should be wiped off the map." Iran's nuclear program and sponsorship of militant Muslim groups are rarely mentioned without reference to the infamous map remark.

Here, for example, is R. Nicholas Burns, the under secretary of state for political affairs, recently: "Given the radical nature of Iran under Ahmadinejad and its stated wish to wipe Israel off the map of the world, it is entirely unconvincing that we could or should live with a nuclear Iran."

But is that what Mr. Ahmadinejad said? And if so, was it a threat of war? For months, a debate among Iran specialists over both questions has been intensifying. It starts as a dispute over translating Persian but quickly turns on whether the United States (with help from Israel) is doing to Iran what some believe it did to Iraq — building a case for military action predicated on a faulty premise.

"Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian," remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse." Since Iran has not "attacked another country aggressively for over a century," he said in an e-mail exchange, "I smell the whiff of war propaganda."

Jonathan Steele, a columnist for the left-leaning Guardian newspaper in London, recently laid out the case this way: "The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

Mr. Steele added that neither Khomeini nor Mr. Ahmadinejad suggested that Israel's "vanishing" was imminent or that Iran would be involved in bringing it about. "But the propaganda damage was done," he wrote, "and Western hawks bracket the Iranian president with Hitler as though he wants to exterminate Jews."

If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate.

But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran's most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say "wipe off" or "wipe away" is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.

The second translation issue concerns the word "map." Khomeini's words were abstract: "Sahneh roozgar." Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as "map," and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr. Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not "Sahneh roozgar" but "Safheh roozgar," meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word "map" again.

Ahmad Zeidabadi, a professor of political science in Tehran whose specialty is Iran-Israel relations, explained: "It seems that in the early days of the revolution the word 'map' was used because it appeared to be the best meaningful translation for what he said. The words 'sahneh roozgar' are metaphorical and do not refer to anything specific. Maybe it was interpreted as 'book of countries,' and the closest thing to that was a map. Since then, we have often heard 'Israel bayad az naghshe jographya mahv gardad' — Israel must be wiped off the geographical map. Hard-liners have used it in their speeches."

The final translation issue is Mr. Ahmadinejad's use of "occupying regime of Jerusalem" rather than "Israel."

To some analysts, this means he is calling for regime change, not war, and therefore it need not be regarded as a call for military action. Professor Cole, for example, says: "I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no."

But to others, "occupying regime" signals more than opposition to a certain government; the phrase indicates the depth of the Iranian president's rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel. He has said that the Palestinian issue "does not lend itself to a partial territorial solution" and has called Israel "a stain" on Islam that must be erased. By contrast, Mr. Ahmadinejad's predecessor, Mohammad Khatami, said that if the Palestinians accepted Israel's existence, Iran would go along.

When combined with Iran's longstanding support for Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah of Lebanon, two groups that have killed numerous Israelis, and Mr. Ahmadinejad's refusal to acknowledge the Holocaust, it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel.

So did Iran's president call for Israel to be wiped off the map? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question.

Nazila Fathi contributed reporting from Tehran for this article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/iran/imgc/shihab.jpg

“Israel must be uprooted and erased from history” inscribed on a Shahab 3 ballistic missile in a military parade in Teheran (September 22, 2003).

[engel]

A side from translations you have to keep in mind that politics out side of the west are not the same as politics in the west, even though i hate the term west. If the Iranian president says he wants to destroy some state it doesn't neciceraly(?) mean he really wants to destroy that state. It could be just a statment for internal means. Like Putin threating Nato with military means, which is militarily absurd, its to show Putin as a strong leader to the Russians. Im not saying thats what Ahmadinjad was trying to do, but it shows not everything is what is looks like. Especialy looking from a different culture.

Also the creation of a nuclear program gives the Iranians a bargaining chip, if you have nuclear weapons a tactical nuclear strike on your country is less likely. Being a enemy of the US, Iran is probebly feeling a bit threatend. So their basicly creating a insurance policy against US or Israeli attacks. Which only works if you don't attack yourself.

[Winger]

A side from translations you have to keep in mind that politics out side of the west are not the same as politics in the west, even though i hate the term west. If the Iranian president says he wants to destroy some state it doesn't neciceraly(?) mean he really wants to destroy that state. It could be just a statment for internal means. Like Putin threating Nato with military means, which is militarily absurd, its to show Putin as a strong leader to the Russians. Im not saying thats what Ahmadinjad was trying to do, but it shows not everything is what is looks like. Especialy looking from a different culture.

Also the creation of a nuclear program gives the Iranians a bargaining chip, if you have nuclear weapons a tactical nuclear strike on your country is less likely. Being a enemy of the US, Iran is probebly feeling a bit threatend. So their basicly creating a insurance policy against US or Israeli attacks.

Much truth there. What they see to their people is entirely differrent than how they actually act. However, at the same token, what they say is usually in line with their wishes even though they can't act on their wishes.

[3rdMillhouse]

IRAN did NOT say it wanted to wipe Israel off the map.

Ha!!! No wonder you got a tag under your nickname naming you the MPnet's Dumbass of the week. It's well deserved.


f the Iranian president says he wants to destroy some state it doesn't neciceraly(?) mean he really wants to destroy that state.

Heh, funny, I recall the same being said about an austrian guy who ruled over germany during the some part 30s and half of the 40s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's just pretend he isn't serious about his statements, let's pretend that Iran isn't suplying Hizbulah and Hamaz with weapons and trainning, let's all shove our heads in the ground and pretend Iran isn't sponsoring the Mahdi army in Iraq. Heck, why be pragmatic if you can always pretend all is right with the world????

[Snoshi]

The hole "wipe off the map" argument always makes me laugh.. Most of the people who think that he dint say it are strong anti-war leftists, who were shocked that their "peaceful" Ahmadinejad suddenly showed hes ugly side..

[Mu-Meson]

The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon.
Right... coz he didn't say paragraph of time. What about chapter of time?
I doubt people in Bali stood on the beach arguing about the colour of the tsunami before it killed them.
Tourist #1 "Its really more of a bluish green with debris in it."
Tourist #2 "Nah, its more greenish blue with debris in it."

[Parx400]

The hole "wipe off the map" argument always makes me laugh.. Most of the people who think that he dint say it are strong anti-war leftists, who were shocked that their "peaceful" Ahmadinejad suddenly showed hes ugly side..


They also try and pretened Iran does not hang gays from a boom truck in public. Even the liberal gay rights groups i nthe US had no comment. They are so left and anti war they would never dare play into the "zionest bush war Machines agenda".

I personally think IRAN wants ISrael or America to bomb them. They think what ever happenes they will come out more powerful in the end and use it as internal propoganda. If we can bleed there economoy and ruin there gas production we can bring them to a halt. Anything else is goign to get realllll ugly.

[Kak]

He and the Iranian government has stated on many occasions that they meant they wanted the regime to collapse in the way the Soviet Union did, but even if you want to interpret the phrase as implying Israel being blanketed with explosions killing everyone in it which would also mean the deaths of 1.1 million Muslim Palestinians who live in Israel, he is saying he hopes it happens, not that he's going to do it, he never "threatened" to wipe Israel off the map as the world media reports it as. There is a big difference between wanting to see something happen and saying you're going to do it yourself. The US government has recently said on several occasions that it hopes Castro dies very soon, but this is different from a vow to assassinate him. The US government has also called for the collapse of the governments of many nations throughout history.

That being said, I think what Ahmadinejad says is stupid and ignorant. For me this is nothing like "peaceful Ahmadinejad suddenly showing his ugly side", I think his statements on Israel have done significant damage to his country's image. However I don't think he's anywhere close to "the next Hitler".

[2Sheds_Jackson]

He and the Iranian government has stated on many occasions that they meant they wanted the regime to collapse in the way the Soviet Union did, but even if you want to interpret the phrase as implying Israel being blanketed with explosions killing everyone in it which would also mean the deaths of 1.1 million Muslim Palestinians who live in Israel, he is saying he hopes it happens, not that he's going to do it, he never "threatened" to wipe Israel off the map as the world media reports it as. There is a big difference between wanting to see something happen and saying you're going to do it yourself. The US government has recently said on several occasions that it hopes Castro dies very soon, but this is different from a vow to assassinate him. The US government has also called for the collapse of the governments of many nations throughout history.


Israel is a democracy. The nation represents the will of the people living there. It's not like Cuba, that represents the will of a handful of elites in Havana. The US has never called for the elimination of Cuba...but for the removal of Castro so that it's people could determine their own destinies. Calling for the elimination of a despot is one thing - calling for the elimination of a people is another, wouldn't you say?

[Kak]

We have called for the elimination of Cuba in the same way Iran has called for the elimination of Israel, that is we have said we want the current government, the Communist government, to cease to exist, in the same way the Soviet Union was eliminated. I am not trying to say though anything like "there's nothing wrong with it since we're doing it too", there is certainly a big difference between wanting people to be free from Communism in Cuba, and wanting the Democratic government of Israel to collapse. I'm just trying to give examples to help with understanding.

The Iranians have said many times that they are calling for an end to Israel as a state and government, not an elimination of its people, they have stressed this point. I am in no way trying to say that is right, the Iranians are wrong pure and simple, but I just think it's important to be using accurate information when discussing a topic. I'm no fan of Paris Hilton, but if she ate human feces but everyone kept saying she ate an entire human, I would probably be correcting that info too.

[eskachig]

I don't think that even that nutjob ever said he wanted all the Jews to be eliminated. I for one don't give a crap what he says in any case, he can't do anything but fume behind his borders. The Hitler comparison is moot in this case.

[TheSteve]

Ha!!! No wonder you got a tag under your Heh, funny, I recall the same being said about an austrian guy who ruled over germany during the some part 30s and half of the 40s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's just pretend he isn't serious about his statements, let's pretend that Iran isn't suplying Hizbulah and Hamaz with weapons and trainning, let's all shove our heads in the ground and pretend Iran isn't sponsoring the Mahdi army in Iraq. Heck, why be pragmatic if you can always pretend all is right with the world????
Please, please don't compare Iran to Germany. Germany was a world power at the time with a large, well trained army. Iran is a regional power, at best.

So what if they are supplying those groups with weapons? Is that a good enough reason to go to war? Didn't we supply the Afghans with weapons to shoot to kill the soviets? Didn't we supply Iraq with weapons to blow up the Iranians? The Soviets provided weapons and even pilots during the Korean war, did we declare war on them?

[Laworkerbee]

We have called for the elimination of Cuba in the same way Iran has called for the elimination of Israel

While I do not agree with my governments policy towards Cuba; you Sir are smoking way too much weed, my government has said nothing close to the disgusting comments made by Ahmadinejad towards Israel and Jews in general.

[Hollis]

So what if they are supplying those groups with weapons?


Maybe you should ask that to someone who has a love one serving in the US military.

[Laworkerbee]

So what if they are supplying those groups with weapons? Is that a good enough reason to go to war?

Such an action can be considered an act of war


Didn't we supply the Afghans with weapons to shoot to kill the soviets?

The United States repaid in kind the aid the Soviets supplied the Vietnamese in our war there.



Didn't we supply Iraq with weapons to blow up the Iranians?

What weapons? show me a picture of one American weapons system in use by Iraq during the conflict., the United States provided intelligence and imagery.


The Soviets provided weapons and even pilots during the Korean war, did we declare war on them?

No but we could have, the nuclear genie helped contain it, besides the Soviets got their asses handed to them over the skies of Korea.



...............................

[Shellshock1918]

The U.S has been at war with Iran as of Thursday, March 20th?

So who made it official?

http://www.fincen.gov/fin-2008-a002.html
A unit within the US Treasury Department, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), which issued a March 20 advisory to the world's financial institutions under the title: "Guidance to financial institutions on the continuing money laundering threat involving illicit Iranian activity."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8429

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JD01Ak01.html

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/mcglynn240308.html

The US is currently blackmailing all the Banks of the World into not doing any trade with Iran to devastate their economy and provoke them into a war that the media will spin.
IRAN did NOT say it wanted to wipe Israel off the map.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=199_1207580549

Silly ckabusk, the US hasn't declared war since World War II. Why start doing the right thing now?

[Lau]

Two things bug me about this thread:

1. Why cant some people just realize that Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs would wipe Israel of the map if they had the chance?
He said it, stop denying it FSS! They even put in on writing for all of us to see on there old crappy missiles!

2. Since when is being 'anti-war' a bad thing?

[engel]

Ha America hasn't declared war since WWII, isn't that from Wack the Dog
:P
to futher this lovely disscusion, America and Israel are only the "good guys" to Americans and Israeli's. Unfortunatly all are equaly dirty, Iran, Israel, US, Hamas, all are dirty, the only two differances are the scale on which they mess about and the media projection the give.

[Nano]

Silly ckabusk, the US hasn't declared war since World War II. Why start doing the right thing now?
x1
I have to say there are a number of things that he posted that can be ruled out as false, but there is something of economic warfare being waged by the U.S. on Iran. This of course has the backing of the Security Council through the sanctions regime. His basic argument that economic warfare has begun is true. The rest of his arguments are flawed or false altogether. Iran of course has not helped their own situation and in fact their economic policies seem to be having a kind of a multiplying effect that the punitive actions have on their economy.

[Kak]

While I do not agree with my governments policy towards Cuba; you Sir are smoking way too much weed, my government has said nothing close to the disgusting comments made by Ahmadinejad towards Israel and Jews in general.
While I think our government saying that we wish Fidel Castro getting killed in an accident isn't right (yes I know how bad he is, I just have some problems with the death penalty, especially without trials), you're absolutely right that Iran calls for the collapse of the Israeli government in a way incomparable to when our government express similar wishes to other countries. While it's been a little while since I've been in "Ahmadinejad mode" so I may be forgetting some quotes, I don't believe Ahmadinejad has really made too many statements against "Jews in general", meaning not just Israeli's in specific. Remember Iran has an official protected Jewish community of 30,000 that is represented by a seat in parliament. Also, Ahmadinejad has said on at least one occasion, that he "loves and respects Jews". That is something "the next Hitler" wouldn't be caught dead saying (although I know you specifically weren't making Hitler claims).

While I have a loved one and many friends serving in Iraq and knowing that one of them could be killed with an Iranian weapon causes me great distress and wish Iran and all of the people involved with fighting us would just stop so we can win and Iraqi's can live peacefully, on a non-personal level I realise that that's how these types of wars are fought (and I also think we shouldn't have been there in the first place), and as awful as it is, I strongly feel that it alone is not worth starting such an enormously devastating war that will have huge political, economic, and security ramifications around the world and would result in a huge amount of casualties, just as I don't believe that we should have started a war with China and the Soviet Union over what they did in Korea and Vietnam, or the Soviet Union should have started a war with us over what we did in Afghanistan.


1. Why cant some people just realize that Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs would wipe Israel of the map if they had the chance?
He said it, stop denying it FSS! They even put in on writing for all of us to see on there old crappy missiles!
They have never said "we would wipe Israel off the map if we had the chance", that's why people deny it, because it's not true. Ahmadinejad said that Khomeini wanted to see Israel gone, and that he agreed with him, there was never a threat to do it himself.

[dave81]

Ha America hasn't declared war since WWII, isn't that from Wack the Dog.It's true. I got into a legal entanglement while in Iraq, and there was some confusing wording in the official paperwork I was handed. The lawyer assigned to me explained that the official status of troops serving in Iraq was "receiving special pay under US Code such-and-such, Section such-and-such", and not "at war".

"Technically", he said, "Congress never declared war, so the US is not 'at war' with anyone. We are in an armed conflict, but it is not a 'war' according to the book."

[3rdMillhouse]

Please, please don't compare Iran to Germany. Germany was a world power at the time with a large, well trained army. Iran is a regional power, at best.

So what if they are supplying those groups with weapons? Is that a good enough reason to go to war? Didn't we supply the Afghans with weapons to shoot to kill the soviets? Didn't we supply Iraq with weapons to blow up the Iranians? The Soviets provided weapons and even pilots during the Korean war, did we declare war on them?

Wait..... d'you believe in that bull**** called fair play? BTW, that thing over at A-Stan during the Soviet Invasion, it's called "payback".

[Flamming_Python]

While I do not agree with my governments policy towards Cuba; you Sir are smoking way too much weed, my government has said nothing close to the disgusting comments made by Ahmadinejad towards Israel and Jews in general.

I don't remember Ahmadinejad saying anything disgusting about Jews...

He did question the holocaust, IMHO a stupid, disgraceful & provocative move, and did denounce Zionism, which in terms of its relations to the Jewish people is debatable.

[Calanen]

A Tale of Two Faces

Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 9:11:37 am PST

At an Arabic news site, gulfnews.com: Ahmadinejad defends Israel remark (http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/RegionNF.asp?ArticleID=189143).
Tehran: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Friday stood firm on his call for Israel to be “wiped off the map” as thousands of Iranians backed his statement in mass protests.


“They are free to talk but their words do not have any validity. It is natural that if a word is right and just it will provoke a reaction,” Ahmadinejad said.


He asserted that his comments “are the exact words of the Iranian people” and criticised “the expansionist policies of the world arrogance”, the official news agency IRNA said.


Referring to the United States and Israel, he said: “They are cheeky humans, and they think that the entire world should obey them.”

For the Western audience, though, al-******* dutifully reports the lame propaganda: Iran seeks to soften Ahmadinejad comment on Israel (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051028/wl_nm/iran_israel_dc_19).
MOSCOW (*******) - Iran sought on Friday to smooth the effects of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s comment that Israel should be “wiped off the map,” saying through its Moscow embassy that he did not mean to “speak up in such sharp terms.”


Ahmadinejad’s remark, strongly condemned by the United States, Russia and EU countries, has added fresh tension to Iran’s relations with the West, already soured by a stand-off over Tehran’s nuclear program.


“Mr. Ahmadinejad did not have any intention to speak up in such sharp terms and enter into a conflict,” the Iranian embassy in Moscow said in a statement, in a first official reaction to the West’s outrage.


“It’s absolutely clear that, in his remarks, Mr. Ahmadinejad, president of the Islamic Republic of Iran, underlined the key position of Iran, based on the necessity to hold free elections on the occupied territories.”
Meanwhile, in Tehran:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/TehranChildAbuse01.jpg (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051028/481/vah10210281023)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=18029_A_Tale_of_Two_Faces&only



All the Arab news services, including the President of Iran's own webpages, were carrying the 'wiped off the map' reference. It's all been sanitised now however.

[Kak]

Never mind, misread.

[Calanen]

Even Al Jazeera had it as 'Wiped of the Map'

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=15816


Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off mapIranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Image/Dump/A77993CB0EAD417780B6BDA862E1AA04.jpgAhmadinejad addressed students at a conference"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference in Tehran on Wednesday, entitled The World without Zionism.
"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.
His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such slogans are still regularly used at government
rallies.

Call for unity
Addressing about 4000 students gathered in an Interior Ministry conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity, resistance and a point "where the annihilation of the Zionist regime will come".
http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2005/7/31/1_73269_1_9.jpg
Khatami was in favour of
'dialogue among civilisations'
"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to live in its heartland," he said in the fiery speech that centred on a "historic war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".
The term "oppressor" is used by the clerical government to refer to the United States.
"We should not settle for a piece of land," he said of Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip.
"Anyone who signs a treaty which recognises the entity of Israel means he has signed the surrender of the Muslim world," Ahmadinejad said.

"Any leaders in the Islamic umma who recognise Israel face the wrath of their own people."


Major change
Ahmadinejad, a veteran of Iran's hardline Revolutionary Guards, took office in August after scoring a landslide win in a June presidential election.
His tone represents a major change from that of former president Mohammad Khatami, whose favoured topic was "dialogue among civilisations" and who led an effort to improve Iran's relations with the West.
But Ahmadinejad instead spoke of a "historic war".
"It dates backs hundreds of years. Sometimes Islam has advanced. Sometimes nobody was winning. Unfortunately over the past 300 years, the world of Islam has been in retreat," he lamented.

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land"

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
President of Iran

"One hundred years ago the last trench of Islam fell, when the oppressors went towards the creation the Zionist regime. It is using it as a fort to spread its aims in the heart of the Islamic world."

In September, Bahrain announced it was ending a decades-old law banning trade ties with Israel. Earlier this month, Qatar said it was donating US$6 million to help build a soccer stadium for a mixed Arab-Jewish team, the first such financial assistance by an Arab state for any town inside Israel.
Unprecedented steps
The modest but unprecedented steps were seen as a response to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September. Nevertheless, Ahmadinejad said, "There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world."

"Ahmadinejad has clearly declared the doctrine of his government. He is returning Iran to the revolutionary goals it was pursuing in the 1980s," said Mohammad Sadeq Hosseini, an expert on Middle Eastern affairs.

"By these comments, Ahmadinejad is committing himself to those goals. He is also sending the message that his government won't back down."

Israeli response

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev issued a vague response. "Today, Israelis heard two extremists speak openly about destroying the Jewish state. One was the new president of Iran, and the other was the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Zahar.


http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2005/10/3/1_73270_1_9.jpg
Scott McClellan said US fears
have proved accurate


"And it appears the problem with these extremists is that they followed through on their violent declarations with violent actions."

The United States said Ahmadinejad's remarks proved the accuracy of Washington's fears about Iran's contentious nuclear programme.

"I think it reconfirms what we have been saying about the regime in Iran. It underscores the concerns we have about Iran's nuclear intentions," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

Ebrahim Yazdi, a former Iranian foreign minister, said Ahmadinejad's remarks harmed Iran.

"Such comments provoke the international community against us. It's not to Iran's interests at all. It's harmful to Iran to make such a statement," he said.

He said the comments gave Israel justification for urging the world to take a tougher stand against Iran and refer its nuclear programme to the UN Security Council for
possible sanctions.

[Calanen]

They have never said "we would wipe Israel off the map if we had the chance", that's why people deny it, because it's not true. Ahmadinejad said that Khomeini wanted to see Israel gone, and that he agreed with him, there was never a threat to do it himself.

No. That's what the spin team came up with after the backlash once he had said it. Even Russia didn't like him saying that, so, the President had to pretend that it was some error in translation or such other rubbish.

That he used the usual obfuscation to cover up his inflammatory rhetoric is no surprise. That leftish moonbats in the West jumped on board is no big shock either. However, that anyone actually believes that load of BS - is mindblowing.

[Snoshi]

Never mind, misread.

I sense sarcasm. But again, this is what Ahmadinejads homepage said

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned countries or leaders who have taken measures to acknowledge the Zionist regime under pressure or due to lack of sound understanding that they will be confronted with the wrath of the Islamic ummah and will forever be disgraced. Speaking at a conference dubbed "World without Zionism" here Wednesday which was attended by thousands of students, he said any country which acknowledges the Zionist regime will actually be acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world. He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away. Ahmadinejad referred to the Zionist regime's recent withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a "trick," saying Gaza is part of Palestinian territory and the withdrawal was meant to make Islamic states acknowledge the Zionist regime of Israel. Pointing to the evil attempts of the US and Israel to saw discord among warring forces in Palestine and other parts of the Islamic world, the president said such attempts were aimed at forcing some Islamic countries to acknowledge the existence of Israel. .
http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad/cronicnews/1384/08/4/index-e.htm
Case closed.

[Calanen]

Snoshi - note though that that is a paraphrase, not a direct quote. So wipe Israel away, could easily be, in prose 'Wipe Israel off the map.' What the leftie apologists have also conveniently forgotten, is that initially, the Iranian President DEFENDED his alleged misquote or mistranslation. See above.

So, for the week or so after he had said it, he was saying what a very good thing it was to say this and how he had a right to. Then Russia got upset, and he pretended like it had never been said.

[shire19]

So Iran would have Israel nuked directly or indirectly and end up not only killing millions of muslims but also have war declared on them by neighbouring middle-eastern countries because of the fallout.. And this is if Iran itself survives the Israeli nuclear retaliation...

Yeah, Im not buying it... In my opinion everything Iran spouts against Israel is for internal consumption both in Iran and in the Islamic world. The consenquences of wiping Israel off the map literally would not benefit anyone in the Middle-east

[IDF_TANKER]

So Iran would have Israel nuked directly or indirectly and end up not only killing millions of muslims but also have war declared on them by neighbouring middle-eastern countries because of the fallout.. And this is if Iran itself survives the Israeli nuclear retaliation...
..........


You sound like a real nuclear arms specialists. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are probably bombs small enough to nuke only, say, Tel-Aviv and its close surroundings (you know kinda like US bombings in Japan).

[shire19]

You sound like a real nuclear arms specialists. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are probably bombs small enough to nuke only, say, Tel-Aviv and its close surroundings (you know kinda like US bombings in Japan).

No need for the snide remarks.
Irregardless of the size of the nuke, wheter it'll take out an city or Israel as an whole.. The end results would be the same right? Israel will retaliate and it will escalate.

I simply dont believe the Mullahs in Iran are so stupid and blinded by their supposed hate of Israel

[IDF_TANKER]

No need for the snide remarks.
Irregardless of the size of the nuke, wheter it'll take out an city or Israel as an whole.. The end results would be the same right? Israel will retaliate and it will escalate.

I simply dont believe the Mullahs in Iran are so stupid and blinded by their supposed hate of Israel


I'm not sure I can count on that.

[Calanen]

I simply dont believe the Mullahs in Iran are so stupid and blinded by their supposed hate of Israel


The same sort of people who use carbombs to blow themselves up, follow this ideology. I don't think anyone can count on them to behave rationally.

[Snoshi]

The thing is that Iran can give a nuke to any of the terrorist organisations that border Israel to let them nuke Israel and Iran can claim that they didnt supply nuclear weapons to terrorists like they deny that they supply weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Van Gogh]

Hitting Iran with a nuke will be like kicking a beehive.

[Steaks]

I thought he only called for a regime change

[Dasein]

The same sort of people who use carbombs to blow themselves up, follow this ideology. I don't think anyone can count on them to behave rationally.

Most of the suicide bombers are Sunnis, from places like Saudi Arabia, not Iranian Shias.

[Dasein]

The thing is that Iran can give a nuke to any of the terrorist organisations that border Israel to let them nuke Israel and Iran can claim that they didnt supply nuclear weapons to terrorists like they deny that they supply weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah.

Except that it will be obvious that Iran did give the nukes to these groups. A nuclear weapon is fairly easy to trace, and if Hamas or Hezbollah ends up with a nuke, it will be pretty obvious where it came from.

However, I find it highly unlikely that Iran would do something like that. Rather, they'd use their nuclear capability as a bargaining chip to gain influence both regionally and globally. The power of a few nukes lies in the threat of their use, not their actual use.

[Moledet]

However, I find it highly unlikely that Iran would do something like that. Rather, they'd use their nuclear capability as a bargaining chip to gain influence both regionally and globally. The power of a few nukes lies in the threat of their use, not their actual use.
Exactly, and Iran will be free to actively and publicly support terrorist organizations while threatening anyone that wish to act against it.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

We have called for the elimination of Cuba in the same way Iran has called for the elimination of Israel, that is we have said we want the current government, the Communist government, to cease to exist, in the same way the Soviet Union was eliminated. I am not trying to say though anything like "there's nothing wrong with it since we're doing it too", there is certainly a big difference between wanting people to be free from Communism in Cuba, and wanting the Democratic government of Israel to collapse. I'm just trying to give examples to help with understanding.

The Iranians have said many times that they are calling for an end to Israel as a state and government, not an elimination of its people, they have stressed this point.

But that's just silly. Would removing the government of France "eliminate" France? How does one "eliminate" a democratic state that's determined to remain that state, unless you crush it's people with violence? Israel is a democracy - if it's government collapses, the millions of Israelis living there will just put a new government in place. Israel does not = it's government. Israel = it's people.

Iran gains nothing by removing Israel's government, because those troublesome Jews will just put in another set of Israelis to govern the exact same area of the map. Therefore, there are only three possible ways for Iran to get what it has called for:

Enough Israelis are killed and wounded to force them to capitulate and give up on their nation, and become the unwilling subjects of a neighboring country
Israelis wake up one day and somehow forget that they've got their own nation where they get to determine their own destiny, and inexplicably vote to become part of a neighboring country
Crafty Mideast traders show up with a sack full of trinkets and trick the naïve Israelis' into selling Israel to Syria for $26 worth of beads.

[Dasein]

But that's just silly. Would removing the government of France "eliminate" France? How does one "eliminate" a democratic state that's determined to remain that state, unless you crush it's people with violence? Israel is a democracy - if it's government collapses, the millions of Israelis living there will just put a new government in place. Israel does not = it's government. Israel = it's people.

Iran gains nothing by removing Israel's government, because those troublesome Jews will just put in another set of Israelis to govern the exact same area of the map. Therefore, there are only three possible ways for Iran to get what it has called for:
Enough Israelis are killed and wounded to force them to capitulate and give up on their nation, and become the unwilling subjects of a neighboring country
Israelis wake up one day and somehow forget that they've got their own nation where they get to determine their own destiny, and inexplicably vote to become part of a neighboring country
Crafty Mideast traders show up with a sack full of trinkets and trick the naïve Israelis' into selling Israel to Syria for $26 worth of beads.

4. Israel's population ceases to be predominately Jewish, and thus Israel ceases to exist as a Jewish state.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

4. Israel's population ceases to be predominately Jewish, and thus Israel ceases to exist as a Jewish state.

I had considered that, but judged the possibility of Israel legislating itself out of existence to be even less likely than the beads option.

[Kak]

lol I contemplated just letting it go and not responding, I guess I don't really have it in me as much as I used to, I have to remember that next time I think about butting into threads. :oops:


No. That's what the spin team came up with after the backlash once he had said it. Even Russia didn't like him saying that, so, the President had to pretend that it was some error in translation or such other rubbish.

That he used the usual obfuscation to cover up his inflammatory rhetoric is no surprise. That leftish moonbats in the West jumped on board is no big shock either. However, that anyone actually believes that load of BS - is mindblowing.
With all due respect, I do not believe it is spin or BS:

"Israel should be wiped off the map" That is what Ahmadinejad has said.

"We will wipe Israel off the map" or "we would wipe Israel off the map if we had the chance" That is what you guys are incorrectly claiming or insinuating he said.

The difference is one is the expressed desire to one day see Israel "wiped off the map", the other is a threat or vow to do it himself. There is a big difference between saying "I really hope that guy dies soon" and saying "I am going to murder that guy". Let me once again stress I think what he said was very stupid no matter what he meant by it.


I sense sarcasm. But again, this is what Ahmadinejads homepage said
I wasn't being sarcastic in that comment, I had originally made a quick post there based on me misreading the post above it, so I "removed" the post after I realised the mistake.


But that's just silly. Would removing the government of France "eliminate" France? How does one "eliminate" a democratic state that's determined to remain that state, unless you crush it's people with violence? Israel is a democracy - if it's government collapses, the millions of Israelis living there will just put a new government in place. Israel does not = it's government. Israel = it's people.

Iran gains nothing by removing Israel's government, because those troublesome Jews will just put in another set of Israelis to govern the exact same area of the map. Therefore, there are only three possible ways for Iran to get what it has called for:

Enough Israelis are killed and wounded to force them to capitulate and give up on their nation, and become the unwilling subjects of a neighboring country
Israelis wake up one day and somehow forget that they've got their own nation where they get to determine their own destiny, and inexplicably vote to become part of a neighboring country
Crafty Mideast traders show up with a sack full of trinkets and trick the naïve Israelis' into selling Israel to Syria for $26 worth of beads.
The history of France as a state and its relation to its location is much different from that of Israel's. The people around them see Israel as a sort of mix between a foreign occupation and a separatist government, they want that government to be defeated and for the area to be reverted to Palestine, a state where all three "people of the book" live under what would be majority rule, as without the current borders from the state of Israel, (when you take into account the refugees in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan) Jews are a minority in "Palestine" (as in the area currently made up of Israel and the Palestinian Territories). They don't want to kill or remove all the Jews and they have stressed this point.

Obviously this is a stupid, stubborn, and pretty much unattainable goal. I can not stress enough, as I am very fearful of you guys thinking otherwise, that I am not trying to defend these views, I am simply trying to explain them. The only policy I am advocating is that while I believe the government of Iran has said and done some horrible things, I don't think that it is enough to start such a devastating war over.

I know all of you think I am the biggest idiot in the world, and I guess I'm okay with that, however if any of you think something I have said is offensive in any way please tell me, and I will try my best to use appropriate measures to rectify the problem and perhaps cease all together. In absence of that, all I am trying to do is engage in intelligent debate, and I apologize if I ever fall short of that.

[3rdMillhouse]

With all due respect, I do not believe it is spin or BS:

"Israel should be wiped off the map" That is what Ahmadinejad has said.

"We will wipe Israel off the map" or "we would wipe Israel off the map if we had the chance" That is what you guys are incorrectly claiming or insinuating he said.

The difference is one is the expressed desire to one day see Israel "wiped off the map", the other is a threat or vow to do it himself.

Yes, yes, big BIG difference. Specially when Iran is actively pursuing the development of nuclear weapons and openly supports terrorism throughout the middle east. Are you trying to be funny? Cause it's not working, you're only making a fool out of yourself.

[Kak]

The IAEA has stated that there is no evidence that Iran has an active nuclear weapons program, and this statement was even recently backed up by United States intelligence community. While there are plenty of shortcomings, inconsistencies, and unanswered questions, there is less evidence to suggest that Iran is actively pursuing nuclear weapons than there is evidence to the contrary.

No, I'm not trying to be funny or foolish, I'm just trying to characterize things accurately, no matter how trivial the differences might seem to most people. If we weren't dealing with a potential war based on mischaracterizations I probably wouldn't care as much.

[Mr.Flint]

The IAEA has stated that there is no evidence that Iran has an active nuclear weapons program, and this statement was even recently backed up by United States intelligence community. While there are plenty of shortcomings, inconsistencies, and unanswered questions, there is less evidence to suggest that Iran is actively pursuing nuclear weapons than there is evidence to the contrary.

No, I'm not trying to be funny or foolish, I'm just trying to characterize things accurately, no matter how trivial the differences might seem to most people. If we weren't dealing with a potential war based on mischaracterizations I probably wouldn't care as much.
Eh, you are still in yesterday,
IAEA was already presented with evidence on the contrary (some of it was provided by the chinese)
the US intelligence community, already backtracked trying to cover their asses for that bull**** report they made (that for all its falling, it did say that they cannot confirm that Iran doesnt work on a nuke program today.)

[damagejackal]

While I do not agree with my governments policy towards Cuba; you Sir are smoking way too much weed, my government has said nothing close to the disgusting comments made by Ahmadinejad towards Israel and Jews in general

Oh really??
How about this statement back in july 2007 by Bush "One day, the good Lord will take Fidel Castro away,"
This could be constructed to form the notion that Bush wants Castro dead through Assasination or "regime change"

[Laworkerbee]

Oh really??
How about this statement back in july 2007 by Bush "One day, the good Lord will take Fidel Castro away,"
This could be constructed to form the notion that Bush wants Castro dead through Assasination or "regime change"

First off learn to quote correctly.

Secondly wanting a foreign leader who oppresses his people to disappear is quite different from wishing an entire people and country "wiped from the map"

Your reaching.

[Sanat-e-naft]

I fail to see how a war with Iran would lead to anything useful for anyone. Iran has the ability to make a lot of our lives hell. Even if we hit them with airstrikes, it wont get everything. Sure that is an assumption, but a safe assumption. If we hit Iran and they start killing Americans (not by proxy; but by long range missiles and MANPADS etc.) then what, a full on war with Iran too? It just is not possible without a draft to achive a victory against Iran. Additionally most Iranians would rally around even a crappy leader (case and point Bush post 9/11) and that is exactly what we dont need. It would be a shame for one more American to die in the pursuit of a failed foreign policy.

[Snoshi]

I fail to see how a war with Iran would lead to anything useful for anyone. Iran has the ability to make a lot of our lives hell. Even if we hit them with airstrikes, it wont get everything. Sure that is an assumption, but a safe assumption. If we hit Iran and they start killing Americans (not by proxy; but by long range missiles and MANPADS etc.) then what, a full on war with Iran too? It just is not possible without a draft to achive a victory against Iran. Additionally most Iranians would rally around even a crappy leader (case and point Bush post 9/11) and that is exactly what we dont need. It would be a shame for one more American to die in the pursuit of a failed foreign policy.

Do you really think that Iran is some kind of super power that can take unlimited punishment?? Enough punishment from the air and you will get a cease-fire pretty soon.

[little icebear]

When you say something like that about a man, old enough to be your grandfather, then one might suspect, that he does no longer refer to the use of CIA-Killer squadrons, but rather expects the old man to die - as old men generally tend to do, sooner or later... ;)

[Sanat-e-naft]

It is not that Iran would or would not be able to take a beating from the air. The real problem is what Iran would do in retaliation. Because there most definately would be one. And that is where the problem lies. Imagine missiles falling on US bases in Iraq or fired at our fleets; Gas is 7 bucks at the pump. We may be able to block a lot of the incoming fire, but it will lead to US deaths, not to mention what would happen if Iran stopped riding the pine in Afghanistan and started working against us. Can you imagine two Iraqs? Can you imagine one Iraq where the Iranian backed groups like the Mahdi Army and most of the Shiite are actually attacking Americans and not eachother.

No country can hold out against the US (save maybe Russia ...maybe) but it is the retaliation that we should be careful of. I for one sure dont want a draft, and I dont think many others do either. And for what? To make sure that Iran doesn't get nukes? COME ON, if the Paki's have them...

P.S. - Dont buy into the hype, Iran would likely never use a nuke, they just want it like insurance so the US wont try and attack them or overthrow the government like they did in the 50's to Iran or Iraq 6 years ago.

[Dasein]

Do you really think that Iran is some kind of super power that can take unlimited punishment?? Enough punishment from the air and you will get a cease-fire pretty soon.

And then what?

[Laworkerbee]

And then what?

Generations of animosity and low level conflict with no end in sight; which is about as the same situation we have now, but at least we still have hope for change with in Iran.

The United States needs detente with Iran, once that door is opened everything will fall into place eventually.

[Clayton Gold]

The United States needs detente with Iran, once that door is opened everything will fall into place eventually.

X2.

A peaceful Iran has so much to offer the world, that I think normalization could happen rather quickly with a "normal" or less bellicose government in place.

[Kak]

Eh, you are still in yesterday,
IAEA was already presented with evidence on the contrary (some of it was provided by the chinese)
the US intelligence community, already backtracked trying to cover their asses for that bull**** report they made (that for all its falling, it did say that they cannot confirm that Iran doesnt work on a nuke program today.)
Yes there have been some findings and inconsistencies as I said earlier, but those were found before the most recent analysis by the IAEA at the end of last year, and it didn't alter their conclusion that they overall still do not believe Iran is actively pursuing nuclear weapons. And of course the NIE couldn't "confirm" such a thing, but they did say they had a "high level of confidence" that there was no active nuclear weapons program, and that's about as close as you can get.


Secondly wanting a foreign leader who oppresses his people to disappear is quite different from wishing an entire people and country "wiped from the map"
Again, they never said they want the Jewish people or the people who live in Israel to be eliminated.

"WOLF BLITZER: But should there be a state of Israel? IRAN'S AMBASSADOR: I think I've already answered to you. If Israel is a synonym and will give the indication of Zionism mentality, no. But if you are going to conclude that we have said the people there have to be removed or they have to be massacred or so, this is fabricated, unfortunate selective approach to what the mentality and policy of Islamic Republic of Iran is. I have to correct, and I did so."

"Ayatola Khameni: We hold a fair and logical stance on the issue of Palestine. Several decades ago, Egyptian statesman Gamal Abdel Nasser, who was the most popular Arab personality, stated in his slogans that the Egyptians would throw the Jewish usurpers of Palestine into the sea. Some years later, Saddam Hussein, the most hated Arab figure, said that he would put half of the Palestinian land on fire. But we would not approve of either of these two remarks. We believe, according to our Islamic principles, that neither throwing the Jews into the sea nor putting the Palestinian land on fire is logical and reasonable. Our position is that the Palestinian people should regain their rights. Palestine belongs to Palestinians, and the fate of Palestine should also be determined by the Palestinian people. The issue of Palestine is a criterion for judging how truthful those claiming to support democracy and human rights are in their claims. The Islamic Republic of Iran has presented a fair and logical solution to this issue. We have suggested that all native Palestinians, whether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews, should be allowed to take part in a general referendum before the eyes of the world and decide on a Palestinian government. Any government that is the result of this referendum will be a legitimate government."

And while I think that there are limited similarities in that both are calls for governments to be brought down and their ideological opposites imposed, I agree that there is little moral equivalency between them due to the nature of the existing versus the proposed regimes.


Generations of animosity and low level conflict with no end in sight; which is about as the same situation we have now, but at least we still have hope for change with in Iran.

The United States needs detente with Iran, once that door is opened everything will fall into place eventually.
Yeah, I hope (wish) we can leave it at that.

[3rdMillhouse]

The IAEA has stated that there is no evidence that Iran has an active nuclear weapons program, and this statement was even recently backed up by United States intelligence community.

What? The CIA is a joke, they've long lost their credibility.