Moscow: a very dangerous and racist city?

[Afro-European]

Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, April 8, 2008; Page A16

MOSCOW -- It was Valentine's Day, work was over, and Uvaido Shirinbekov, a Tajik carpenter, headed out for a night in the city. With Amid Nasratshoyev, a co-worker, he took the Metro from the Moscow suburb where the two lived. They planned to visit a cafe in the fashionable Chistiye Prudy neighborhood where Nasratshoyev's wife worked an evening shift.
But in Moscow, they were attacked by a gang of youths. Nasratshoyev, 27, was struck from behind on the head and fell dazed to the ground. As he stumbled to his feet, he said, Shirinbekov fell into his arms. "I've been stabbed," Shirinbekov said, according to his friend.
Five youths fled in the darkness. And Shirinbekov, 25, died on the street, just blocks from the pair's destination that night.
The killing of Shirinbekov, which remains under investigation, is part of a wave of racially motivated murders in Moscow that has put the city's migrant communities on edge, particularly people from Central Asia, according to human rights groups. Easily singled out because of their non-Slavic appearance, Central Asian workers have borne the brunt of the attacks by skinheads and neo-Nazis.
"People are living in fear," said Gavkhar Dzhurayeva of the Tajikistan Foundation in Moscow, a support group for citizens from that country. "We are advising people to be very careful. But they still have to travel to work in the morning and go home at night."
From January through March, 49 people have been killed in assaults by radical nationalists, 28 of them in the greater Moscow area, according to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau. There were 27 racist killings in Moscow in 2006 and 45 in 2007, according to the group. Most of the killings remain unsolved.
Twenty-three of the victims this year were from Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan, all former Soviet republics that supply many of the city's markets and construction sites with cheap labor. There are an estimated 850,000 migrants from Central Asia living and working in Moscow, a city of more than 10 million, according to city officials.
Kyrgyz Ambassador Raimkul Attakurov, in a letter to Russia's ombudsman this year, labeled the attacks the "savage outrages of fascist monsters" and called on Russian authorities "to pay the most serious attention to this vile phenomenon."
Local and federal officials, including President-elect Dmitry Medvedev, have begun to express alarm about the rising violence. "Law enforcement bodies should take a tough stand, should not keep silent or retreat into the bushes," Medvedev said recently. "They must act and enforce legislation."
But some officials question the scale of the problem. "I am sure there is no growing wave of extremism," said Moscow prosecutor Yuri Syomin, speaking recently to the government newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta. He said the number of hate crimes is falling "year by year."
It is difficult to obtain firm statistics on hate crimes. There are no official figures. Organizations such as the Moscow Human Rights Bureau and the Sova Center, another group that tracks hate crimes, assemble their statistics from media reports and by monitoring Web sites associated with extremists as well as police reports when they are available.
City officials say the methods of both groups are deeply flawed. "Even if one person is killed, it's a problem," said Alexei Alexandrov, head of Moscow's Committee for Inter-Regional Ties and Nationalities Policy. "But some human rights groups are counting killings of non-Russians by a Russian where the motive is unknown. It could be over a girl, over money."
Vladilen Bokov, another official with the city's nationalities committee, said that since December, only 10 killings in the greater Moscow area could be clearly identified as racially motivated.
Human rights groups say the problem has grown unchecked because of the failure of police and prosecutors to acknowledge and directly confront racist violence. According to Human Rights First, a U.S.-based advocacy group that studies hate crimes across North America and Europe, racist attacks in Russia are often prosecuted as simple acts of "hooliganism."
"Although adequate hate crime legislation exists, it has been ignored in the prosecution of the vast majority of hate crime cases," the organization said in a report this year. "Even when prosecuted, hate crime charges are not always vigorously pursued."
According to Semyon Charny of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, there are an estimated 70,000 skinheads in Russia. Promoting an overtly Nazi ideology, they espouse hatred for those who are not ethnic Russians, typically describing them as invaders stealing jobs and destroying Russian culture.
Also targeted are Russian citizens from the Far East and Caucasus, but attacks on groups such as Chechens have dropped because they began to arm themselves and fight back, according to Galina Kozhevnikova of the Sova Center.
Violent nationalists have become more organized in recent years, according to human rights groups. "If before, attacks were spontaneous and chaotic, now skinheads are going on hunts for victims," Charny said.
Kozhevnikova said the attacks are the most extreme expression of rising nationalism in Russian society. "The xenophobic mood in politics and society is quite high," she said, arguing that denunciation of migrants has entered mainstream discourse.
The Sova Center noted in a recent report, for example, that Gennady Zyuganov, the Communist Party candidate for president, expressed concern about the "lack of Russian faces" in some industries. A poll by the Levada Center in December found that 54 percent of those surveyed support the notion that Russia is a state for the Russian people, and that the influence of other ethnicities should be limited.
There are people of 168 different ethnicities living in Moscow, according to city officials.
Radical nationalists blame the rise in murders on increased pressure against their groups from authorities.
"They've driven large, legal movements underground," Dmitry Demushkin, leader of the Slavic Union, said in an interview with Newsweek's Russian edition. "Now the guys have taken out their knives."
Violent racists are threatening to intensify their attacks. "We'll see how these animals start baying when we start with explosives and shootings," read a comment on the Web site Russian Will after the Moscow city parliament held a session to discuss hate crimes.
Shirinbekov arrived in Moscow from Tajikistan in November. His family described him as a skilled carpenter. It was his second stint in the city, where he worked legally, sponsored by his employer. He and his younger brother, Khofiz, worked at the same site, and each month they wired cash to their family in rural Tajikistan.
"He was a quiet, lovely guy," Salim Silmonov, 38, Shirinbekov's cousin, said in an interview. "He didn't go out much. He talked about saving money so he could study here."
On Feb. 14, Nasratshoyev told his friend he was heading into the city. "He just suddenly decided to come along," Nasratshoyev said in an interview.
Two days later, Silmonov picked up Shirinbekov's body at a city morgue and took the coffin to the airport. Shirinbekov's brother accompanied it home. "Khofiz is never coming back," Silmonov said.
"His family is afraid to lose another son. We're all afraid, and we're all dreaming of going home."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/07/AR2008040702718_2.html?hpid=topnews

Vladimir Putin(whose i admire by the way)and his government have dramatically failed to eradicate violence in Russia(espacially in Moscow which is highly crime ridden,full of skinheads,Neo-Nazis and other right-wing groups).Do they have hate-crime laws in Russia?That might have helped i think.
These kind of sh!t feed the hatred that some people from the Caucasus, Far East or elsewhere harbour against ethnic Russians.I thought Chechens,Tatars,Inghusies,people from the Far East were Russians too.

[Flamming_Python]

My take:

This is what happens when Communist ideology, Friendship of the peoples is demonised and discredited. The working class, and people in similar economic situations start to kill each other over the scraps the rich throw to them, when in fact they should be uniting to put pressure on their elite. People start to divide themselves by white-black, christian-islam, russian-caucasian, and then fascism begins to sweep in among all ethnic groups, leading to inter-ethnic violence & chaos.

From what I read, the situation sounds like it's getting out of control in Moscow. The police & city authorities have proven themselves not only extremely incompetent, but are falling to corruption and racism within their own ranks. If the authorities aren't willing to do the job, the people should. AntiFa is a rapidly growing movement, but unfortunately just as violent and ruthless as the fascists it seeks to exterminate. All normal, non-racists of every ethnicity should unite and march on the streets immediately, workers organisations should organise and step out. Most preferably without further violence, or else the politicians will get nervous, call in the OMON to crack some skulls, and either radicalise the situation further, or else institute a complete lockdown & blackout in Moscow.

Mind you it isn't the same situation everywhere in Russia, places where there have historically been many ethinticities are much more peacefull, and even some places like St.Petersburg are considerably more peacefull than Moscow. For this reason I doubt we'll have a Civil War any time soon :)

[Snoshi]

St.Petersburg is much more dangerous.. Nazis there are organized into a hierarchic structure..

[RWR]

I don't understand how can someone be Russian and support Nazism...it sounds stupid and self-hating almost as Jewish Nazi.Also I don't understand is how they can tell the difference between Chechen and Russian.

[Snoshi]

.Also I don't understand is how they can tell the difference between Chechen and Russian.

Seeing difference between a person of Slavic appeareance and "Caucasian" apperance is pretty easy. Also Russian accent can help to "indentify" where person was born.

[Flamming_Python]

St.Petersburg is much more dangerous.. Nazis there are organized into a hierarchic structure..

Says who? Why would skinhead organisation & hierarchy be any different in Piter than in other Russian cities? It's my home city, last time I been was 3-4 years ago, spent the winter there and didn't see a single neo-nazi, even in the not-so-rich Kalininsky rajon that I often frequented, although I did encounter racist views. Then I visited Moscow and ended up sitting across from a skinhead on the metro on my first day :)

I'm sure the situation has gotten for the worse in the last few years as it has everywhere else, and I know there are neo-nazis there, as there have been some high-profile killings (such as of a 8-year Tadzik girl :(), however I have friends there, and they tell me its not so bad; definitely more quiet than Moscow. There are also less Caucasians, and the ones that are there seem to not clump up into gangs as often. I think it's maybe just that Moscow has always been a huge, aggressive dump, so of course it inspires the same attitudes in its people :)

BTW, getting back to the article, problem of rising neo-nazism is not so much due to Putin and his idea of a strong Russia (an idea which should be uniting Russia's different peoples, not dividing them), but more due to the fact that people who were raised in the turbulent 90's are only now starting to grow up and become adult enough to go around and beat people up according to whatever extremist ideas poverty and hardship drove them to accept.

[Arbody]

Never saw nazi skinhead in SPB or Moscow . In my opinion Moscow or SPB is less dengerous than Warsaw or the same dangerous as London .

[Ichabod]

Its not just the problem in Russia,but also in other countries across Europe.Its about peoples history and culture,for instance in my country there are a lot of neo-nazis but they don't do much **** (like killing or raping) cause there are also many antifascists who would most likely send a couple of hundred of them 6 feet under.Its about what kind of history and culture one has,and of course,the financial situation.I always tend to think that there would be much less racism if people had a better financial situation.However most neo-nazis over here have a solid financial situation.

[Flamming_Python]

Never saw nazi skinhead in SPB or Moscow . In my opinion Moscow or SPB is less dengerous than Warsaw or the same dangerous as London .

Moscow is a humongous city, so yeah you could quite easily go through it without encountering anything. But perhaps living there is a different story, especially in certain areas which have high immigrant populations, or are economically depressed.

Can't say for sure though; I never did spend much time in Moscow :D


Its not just the problem in Russia,but also in other countries across Europe.Its about peoples history and culture,for instance in my country there are a lot of neo-nazis but they don't do much **** (like killing or raping) cause there are also many antifascists who would most likely send a couple of hundred of them 6 feet under.Its about what kind of history and culture one has,and of course,the financial situation.I always tend to think that there would be much less racism if people had a better financial situation.However most neo-nazis over here have a solid financial situation.

The way I see it, the more similar the financial situation of any 2 ethnic groups, the less racism and animosity there will be between them. Unless of course they are both dirt poor, in which case you'll get loads of violence :)

[btdown]

Having lived in SPB, Moscow and Poland (Lodz), my opinion is that Moscow was worse (but not by far). As a "white guy", I never really had any problems but I often saw people of color the target of open hostility. I was in Riga, Latvia once, and while walking past the post office...The front door flies open and this black guy (african) comes flying out the front door, superman style. The must have tossed him like 10 feet. There were about 5 people in the door way screaming at him, and the dude ran away.
Dont know what he did, but it was funny at the time.

[Arbody]

You now I'm from Irkutck (Siberia) 75% blood Ruskie , rest of it Buriat ,Jew,Polish :D . And I lived in Moscow for 6 months but that was long time ago 1993.
PS. I'm look asian :)

[Doublethinker]

I don't understand how can someone be Russian and support Nazism...it sounds stupid and self-hating almost as Jewish Nazi.


One can embrace the nationalist ideas without actually worshipping Hitler or believing in herren and lower races.

But the media would prefer to label everyone with different opinions with the nazi tag, of course.



Also I don't understand is how they can tell the difference between Chechen and Russian.

http://www.chechenpress.info/events/foto/sadulaev6.jpg


http://noogen.newmail.ru/Heroes/gagarin11.jpg

How can one make a mistake? ;)

[Doublethinker]

My take:

This is what happens when Communist ideology, Friendship of the peoples is demonised and discredited.


On the contrary, there was little friendship to speak of, the majority of the peoples living in the USSR hated each other's guts and as soon as the government stopped being so ruthless in supressing nationalism, the country fell apart.

Only goes to show that this professed friendship and brotherhood was skin deep.

The best method for suppressing the population, was send Ukrainian-originated troops to control the population in Tajikistan, Tajiks - into The baltics, Lithuanians - into Moscow.

Hate and fear - that was the soul of the Soviet machine.



The working class, and people in similar economic situations start to kill each other over the scraps the rich throw to them, when in fact they should be uniting to put pressure on their elite. People start to divide themselves by white-black, christian-islam, russian-caucasian, and then fascism begins to sweep in among all ethnic groups, leading to inter-ethnic violence & chaos.


You don't need to divide someone who's already divided by nature.




From what I read, the situation sounds like it's getting out of control in Moscow. The police & city authorities have proven themselves not only extremely incompetent, but are falling to corruption and racism within their own ranks. If the authorities aren't willing to do the job, the people should. AntiFa is a rapidly growing movement, but unfortunately just as violent and ruthless as the fascists it seeks to exterminate. All normal, non-racists of every ethnicity should unite and march on the streets immediately, workers organisations should organise and step out. Most preferably without further violence, or else the politicians will get nervous, call in the OMON to crack some skulls, and either radicalise the situation further, or else institute a complete lockdown & blackout in Moscow.


OMON will crack any skulls that dare to 'march in the street', be they fascist or antifascist.

The government supports neither, they just want to be in control. And that requires a population with low level of political activity. That is why OMON always goes for the overkill, when dealing with any demonstrations.

Welcome to the land of totalitarian democracy.



Mind you it isn't the same situation everywhere in Russia, places where there have historically been many ethinticities are much more peacefull, and even some places like St.Petersburg are considerably more peacefull than Moscow. For this reason I doubt we'll have a Civil War any time soon :)

We already do. Chechnya, Dagestan. Last time I checked these were the territories of the 'Russian federation', at least de jure.

[Ichabod]

The way I see it, the more similar the financial situation of any 2 ethnic groups, the less racism and animosity there will be between them. Unless of course they are both dirt poor, in which case you'll get loads of violence :)

Yeah,thats the way i see it too,however there is also the factor of the century's old animosity between some ethnic groups or nationalities.


One can embrace the nationalist ideas without actually worshipping Hitler or believing in herren and lower races.



What about the ones who do worship Hitler?There is a lot of them actually.

[PeterRJG]

Moscow a dangerous and racist city? Please, there'd be more chance of you getting your ass handed to you in any number of Los Angeles suburbs.

[Doublethinker]

What about the ones who do worship Hitler?There is a lot of them actually.

There are freaks on all sides of political spectre.

To me, a person worshipping Malcolm X is no better than a person worshipping Hitler (not that the characters themselves are equally bad though).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Rockwell_at_Nation_of_Islam_Rally.jpg

Nation of Islam gathering with representatives of the American Nazi Party. United probably by common hatred of the jews.

[Scotus]

Vladimir Putin(whose i admire by the way)or his government weren't able to eradicate violence in Russia(espacially in Moscow which is highly crime ridden).Do they have hate-crime laws in Russia.That might have helped i think.
These kind of sh!t feed the hatred that some people from the Caucasus Far East or elsewhere harbour against ethnic Russians.I thought Chechens,Tatars,Inghusies,people from the Far East were Russians too.You keep posting these alarmist articles. The Washington Post typically writes anti-Russian hyperbole when it mentions the country. Many of those that contribute articles on the country have connections to the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation. They quote sources within these articles that are NGOs funded by the same think tanks or people as quoted/edited speaking to other disseminators of anti-Russian hysteria. There is an ideological aim to depict Russia as a chaotic thug country.

Unfortunately, there is more street crime and the abuse of human rights by criminals in London than in Moscow. Crack cocaine and related thug groups are a gigantic factor in this here - fortunately for Moscow, they do not have that problem. They also have a strong, armed police force - which in the UK would be unthinkable. Crack cocaine is also, interestingly, a big problem in Washington, DC (although not nearly as bad as in London). For the record, I have spent time in all three cities - including being in places that were since hit by Jihadist suicide bombers (we are all equally infidel Crusaders and entitled to death to them).

There are no self-styled "human rights" groups following the scores of unarmed police murdered by Yardies, crack-addict hookers murdered by serial killers, thugs gunned-down by other thugs, random bystanders and terrorised locals. Apparently there is no ideological requirement.

[Sergei]

The crimes against ethnic Russians in Moscow or St. Petersburg just don't get so much attention.
Yesterday, a russian woman was stabbed to death in Moscow McDonalds by three impudent kavkazoids who tried to cut the line.
You would never see this reported in any western newspaper. It won't sell. And the police won't do jack**** to deport those illegal azeris, georgians or other lowlifes from the country.

[blackshadow69]

The crimes against ethnic Russians in Moscow or St. Petersburg just don't get so much attention.
Yesterday, a russian woman was stabbed to death in Moscow McDonalds by three impudent kavkazoids who tried to cut the line.
You would never see this reported in any western newspaper. It won't sell. And the police won't do jack**** to deport those illegal azeris, georgians or other lowlifes from the country.
Exactly bro...those chechenes feel so free on our land and do what ever they want and im sad that we in Ukraine live them do it and give them a place to stay...they do what ever they want but when Russian people do that whole world start about nazis and discrimination...haha so funny world.

[Flamming_Python]

On the contrary, there was little friendship to speak of, the majority of the peoples living in the USSR hated each other's guts and as soon as the government stopped being so ruthless in supressing nationalism, the country fell apart.

Only goes to show that this professed friendship and brotherhood was skin deep.

The best method for suppressing the population, was send Ukrainian-originated troops to control the population in Tajikistan, Tajiks - into The baltics, Lithuanians - into Moscow.

Hate and fear - that was the soul of the Soviet machine.

Rubbish. During the 80's, Azeri men often went to Yerevan to take Armenian brides. Imagine that 10 years later...

I can't count the amount of times I discussed the topic of former USSR with Central Asians, Azeri's, etc... Many of them have nostalgia for it, and long for the days when warfare & poverty wasn't wrecking their country. In fact there is a lot of nostalgia for USSR within Russia, not just the republics, and many recognize that despite material benefits, civil society back then was in many ways better, and there was genuine freindship of the peoples; not among everyone of course, but definately more than there is now. I saw an interview with an ex-Chechen rebel (who is now Kadyrovets), in which he said that in the beggining of the 90's, he had just finished army service, and was a member of a Grozny russian-language rock band, and was by his mentality a Soviet person, who at first didn't relate to the nationalist slogans being repeated in central Grozny in the beggining of the 90's. Only after shells started to fly and he saw his neighbours getting killed, did he pick a side. Don't know if he was lying or not, but certainly interesting to ponder.

Now the Soviet people have let themselves become divided by cynical politicians, die-hard nationalists whose ideas appealed to desperate peoples, not to mention words like 'Rus', 'Islam', etc... all designed to fill in the vacuum that the collapse of the USSR created, but all miserably failing as not one of them has the power to overcome the others, resulting in people become more and more entrenched in their silly ideas and ancient history.

There are movements, independence for this, independence for that. Independence for the Russian people from the 'Churka' republics as you say. But you know what? Should this or that territory get their independence, their politicians who rode on the back of popular sentiment will soon find that they can't live up to their promises to their people, and soon a new wave of discontent and opposition will begin to tear apart society. True it's much easier to do when you have a different culture or religion to unite against, but believe me, even in 'pure russia', there will still be plenty of discontent & hatred.


You don't need to divide someone who's already divided by nature.By nature we are all one race - Homo Sapian. Only difference at birth is colour of skin, but colour of skin only matters in as far as you judge its significance (which for some people is less, some more). Much more important is culture and religious differences, neither of which a person is born with, but rather develops into during the years of adolescence/puberty. However even these differences need not be relevant, if they are either respected, or just largely ignored as was the case with the USSR. I believe each people have a right to develop their own language, culture, religion... but that doesn't mean they should develop separately; unity is a formidable force. If instead of building military we could switch our efforts to economy we would have been unstoppable. But instead we all broke up into small, angry nations, none of which has the support of much of its population now that the fiery nationalist rhetoric of the 90's has transformed into cynical political games, fruit & plant flavoured revolutions and what not. We had what, 5-6 conflicts breaking out on former-USSR territory in first 5 years after fall of USSR? You can say that ethinticity X has always hated people Y, or religion Z is always going to conflict with religion A. But somehow we managed in Soviet era, despite the fact that some nationalists weren't happy, and most important, we didn't butcher each other but all took pride in for example, Space Program of USSR.


OMON will crack any skulls that dare to 'march in the street', be they fascist or antifascist.

The government supports neither, they just want to be in control. And that requires a population with low level of political activity. That is why OMON always goes for the overkill, when dealing with any demonstrations.

Welcome to the land of totalitarian democracy.

Exactly the situation everyone wishes to avoid, and totalitarian democracy is exactly what we'll get (or in fact probably worse) if nationalists don't stop monkeying around with ethnic cleansing. The political leaders tolerate political activity; what they don't tolerate is a threat to their power. Non-violent demonstrations are civil movements in civil society, there is no need to tie the issue with politics. I'm sure even Luzhkov understands that breaking up a peaceful demonstration that doesn't call for the overthrow of the government will do a ton more harm than good.

[Afro-European]

From what I read, the situation sounds like it's getting out of control in Moscow. The police & city authorities have proven themselves not only extremely incompetent, but are falling to corruption and racism within their own ranks.

I wonder how the corrupt Yuri Luzhkov have managed to hold on to power that long.Last year he sent Omon to crackdown on Gay Pride parade (beating their a$$es as if they were criminlas),while skinheads,Neo-Nazis and other right-wing groups(that are a threat to the country) can run wild,robbing,maiming,killing non-white Russians.
You guys need to pass a hate-crime laws US-style.It won't completely eradicate that sh!t but might help.

[Afro-European]

[quote=Scotus;3163008]You keep posting these alarmist articles. The Washington Post typically writes anti-Russian hyperbole when it mentions the country. Many of those that contribute articles on the country have connections to the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation. They quote sources within these articles that are NGOs funded by the same think tanks or people as quoted/edited speaking to other disseminators of anti-Russian hysteria. There is an ideological aim to depict Russia as a chaotic thug country.
quote]

lol it's like a write them.I agree with you that there is some anti-Russian bias by the Western media but if you read Ria Novosti, Izvestia, Kommersant,Moscow Weekly(to name a few),you'll read the same stories.

[Doublethinker]

I wonder how the corrupt Yuri Luzhkov have managed to hold on to power that long.Last year he sent Omon to crackdown on Gay Pride parade (beating their asses like they were criminlas),while skinheads,Nezo-Nazis and other right-wing groups(that are a threat to the country) can run wild,robbing,maiming,killing non-white Russians.
You guys need to pass a hate-crime laws US-style.It won't completely eradicate that sh!t but might help.

there is one already.

Article 282 of the Russian Criminal Code, also called 'the Russian article', since total majority of those who are put on trial because of this article are ethnic Russians - if there's a fight between a Russian and a representative of a minority, there's a great chance that Russian will be also punished for 'igniting interracial hatred', instead of simply breaking order.

[Scotus]

lol it's like a write them.I agree with you that there is some anti-Russian bias by the Western media but if you read Ria Novosti, Izvestia, Kommersant,Moscow Weekly(to name a few),you'll read the same stories.Like I told you before, I read Russian media almost every day. And I never mentioned "Western media," I specifically named the Washington Post and certain think tanks, which are certainly not representative of the "West" but of a specific segment of American political consensus and journalism.

Certainly, you will read stories of incidents as in the article you posted in the Russian media, simply because as things happen they become news. You will also see a greater spectrum of the good and the bad within the country. What you will not find is an equivelant to these articles by a Russian newspaper reporting on, for example, a series of murdered crack-addicted hookers in New Jersey or London suggesting the entire country is at that level of barbarity. Perhaps Pravda might, but they are more of a tabloid and there is not really an equivelant to the Washington Post/Newsweek/Think Tank approach.

I would suggest you spend time in Moscow/Russia for a while if it is so interesting for you.

[Calanen]

I wonder how many people get bashed every day in Moscow, of every colour.

[sergentdarmes]

In France, statistics including ethnic data are totally forbidden. For practitionners of the criminal justice system, it is mostly amonst the second or third generation "french" youngs of foreign origin that criminal activity is found when considering gang activity, drug dealing, armed robbery.
While there are a few neo-nazis, these cowards don't target other violent criminals but soft targets: women, elderly, famillies or religious buildings or even tombs.
Going back to the thread original location, while visiting Moscow as part of an organized tour, I saw some men and women who were looking somewhat asians, eastern siberians (some were in Army uniform, so they are citizens of the Russian Federation).
How are they considered by the ethnic russian population?

[Russian_dude]

Rubbish. During the 80's, Azeri men often went to Yerevan to take Armenian brides. Imagine that 10 years later...

I can't count the amount of times I discussed the topic of former USSR with Central Asians, Azeri's, etc... Many of them have nostalgia for it, and long for the days when warfare & poverty wasn't wrecking their country. In fact there is a lot of nostalgia for USSR within Russia, not just the republics, and many recognize that despite material benefits, civil society back then was in many ways better, and there was genuine freindship of the peoples; not among everyone of course, but definately more than there is now. I saw an interview with an ex-Chechen rebel (who is now Kadyrovets), in which he said that in the beggining of the 90's, he had just finished army service, and was a member of a Grozny russian-language rock band, and was by his mentality a Soviet person, who at first didn't relate to the nationalist slogans being repeated in central Grozny in the beggining of the 90's. Only after shells started to fly and he saw his neighbours getting killed, did he pick a side. Don't know if he was lying or not, but certainly interesting to ponder.

Now the Soviet people have let themselves become divided by cynical politicians, die-hard nationalists whose ideas appealed to desperate peoples, not to mention words like 'Rus', 'Islam', etc... all designed to fill in the vacuum that the collapse of the USSR created, but all miserably failing as not one of them has the power to overcome the others, resulting in people become more and more entrenched in their silly ideas and ancient history.

There are movements, independence for this, independence for that. Independence for the Russian people from the 'Churka' republics as you say. But you know what? Should this or that territory get their independence, their politicians who rode on the back of popular sentiment will soon find that they can't live up to their promises to their people, and soon a new wave of discontent and opposition will begin to tear apart society. True it's much easier to do when you have a different culture or religion to unite against, but believe me, even in 'pure russia', there will still be plenty of discontent & hatred.

By nature we are all one race - Homo Sapian. Only difference at birth is colour of skin, but colour of skin only matters in as far as you judge its significance (which for some people is less, some more). Much more important is culture and religious differences, neither of which a person is born with, but rather develops into during the years of adolescence/puberty. However even these differences need not be relevant, if they are either respected, or just largely ignored as was the case with the USSR. I believe each people have a right to develop their own language, culture, religion... but that doesn't mean they should develop separately; unity is a formidable force. If instead of building military we could switch our efforts to economy we would have been unstoppable. But instead we all broke up into small, angry nations, none of which has the support of much of its population now that the fiery nationalist rhetoric of the 90's has transformed into cynical political games, fruit & plant flavoured revolutions and what not. We had what, 5-6 conflicts breaking out on former-USSR territory in first 5 years after fall of USSR? You can say that ethinticity X has always hated people Y, or religion Z is always going to conflict with religion A. But somehow we managed in Soviet era, despite the fact that some nationalists weren't happy, and most important, we didn't butcher each other but all took pride in for example, Space Program of USSR.



Exactly the situation everyone wishes to avoid, and totalitarian democracy is exactly what we'll get (or in fact probably worse) if nationalists don't stop monkeying around with ethnic cleansing. The political leaders tolerate political activity; what they don't tolerate is a threat to their power. Non-violent demonstrations are civil movements in civil society, there is no need to tie the issue with politics. I'm sure even Luzhkov understands that breaking up a peaceful demonstration that doesn't call for the overthrow of the government will do a ton more harm than good.

All the jokes in the Soviet Union were about how rich the Georgians/Arminians were and how well they lived compared to the Russians. Fast forward a few years... Yerevan barely gets enough electricity to get by and Georgia is US's toilet attendant wiping it's ar*s and cleaning it's sh*t... and being very gratefull.

[Afro-European]

I would suggest you spend time in Moscow/Russia for a while if it is so interesting for you.

I certainly will.As a black, i hope they gonna treat me well :).

[shaytan]

I certainly will.As a black, i hope they gonna treat me well :).

For the most part - it is fairly safe to be black in Russia. Just ask all those students from Africa in Moscow. Moscow of course is not crime-free, so common sense will help.

Even in the middle of Siberia where I live - there are a few black people living permanently. I cannot recall on my memory whether there were any crime against black people in the area.

Population here is more concerned with people coming from Central Asia - because some of them bring heroin traffic along. And to greater extent gypsies - for the very same reason.

[Bongopete]

For the most part - it is fairly safe to be black in Russia. Just ask all those students from Africa in Moscow. Moscow of course is not crime-free, so common sense will help.

Even in the middle of Siberia where I live - there are a few black people living permanently. I cannot recall on my memory whether there were any crime against black people in the area.

Population here is more concerned with people coming from Central Asia - because some of them bring heroin traffic along. And to greater extent gypsies - for the very same reason.


Gypsies??? Are they actually still around?

[johnM]

This is of course very sad. My parents that were living in the Soviet Union they said that racial conflicts never existed, simply because everybody looks so different, which makes it hard to tell of someone for example is arab or german. There was never a hate towards anyone. Students from all around the world applied and went to study in Soviet universities, so "other" people were just as accepted as anyone else.
In olden days (soviet union) nazism or racism was extremely forbidden, mainly because of the socialist/communist ideology that had a big impact in the society, and that it would hurt the countries image. If any1 would ever go out with a naziflag they would probably get their ass kicked. Now the unstability of the country has let these extremist groups to grow stronger.

The thing that kept all "muslim" people accepted in the society was mainly that they had to act like every1 else in the society, never did they disrespect any ukrainian or russian people and their culture, but they shared it and was a part of Russian culture, even if they had their own religion and all. Altough my parents experienced places where infact Russians were threated badly, like in Chechnya before the war where Russians were frequently disrespected, which is because there wasnt many Russian people in Chechnya, which let these some uneducated muslims show their primative disrespect/hate against Russian minorities in Chechnya.

It is sad that most of these neo-nazis are actually troubled young men, that gets tricked by older fascists that tell them lies so they can join their organisation. In Russia, there are big contrasts. Somebody who really represent true Russians are those educated and friendly people, not the neo-nazis, which I consider should actually be placed as a terrorist organisation, and must be taken care of.

It is really sad to see how a ideology that created a good society breaks down and creates confusion ,hate and disrespect among the Russian population. Remember, a Russian Neo-nazi who kills a human being of another skincolor can as well kill a white Russian man. I know that these hate crimes will eventually be taken care of seriously soon. I personally think that Russian is a country that need strong leaders and strict rules. In Russia we have some of the smartest people on earth but also low-life **** that needs to be taken care of. Also russian mafia was did not "exist" in communist years, it flourished during Yeltsins time. Obviously Yeltsins "democracy" didnt help.


sry for misstakes in language

[Eratosthenes]

This just out -
Two Tajik nationals charged with murder of Russian reporter

http://www.en.rian.ru/world/20080408/104071381.html


RIP.

[shaytan]

Gypsies??? Are they actually still around?

Very much so:

http://www.aferizm.ru/images/cigan_razvod.jpg

[koalorka]

Good for Russia. Multiculturalism is a failed Liberal pipe dream and I'm glad the Russians have rejected it. I don't see the BBC writing too many pieces on Japan's extreme xenophobia towards anyone darker than themselves, or the same thing in Korea. Those countries are smart, unlike the West, they know that economic strength and social stability is guaranteed by an ethnically homogeneous population, their consciousness is not clouded by guilt or naive egalitarian fantasies. The reverse is occurring in Western European and NA, the Liberals are attempting to import every starving third worlder for the sake of humanism and their own multicultural vanity. And the devolution of society is already apparent. The Russians have a right to determine their own future without some liberals forcing their ridiculous views on them.

[Bongopete]

Very much so:

http://www.aferizm.ru/images/cigan_razvod.jpg

And what is it that they do? Move about and panhandle and steal and that sort of thing? I thought they died out years ago.

[johnM]

Gypsies??? Are they actually still around?

Gypsies have a very bad status in eastern europe, mainly becuase they are known for stealing and hypnotising people, and begging for money. I actually know people that have seriously been hypnotised by gypsies and got their money and jewelry stolen. The problem with gypsies started also after CCCP collaps, because during communist times it was illegal to beg for money on the street, so then they werent any problem.

[shaytan]

Good for Russia. Multiculturalism is a failed Liberal pipe dream and I'm glad the Russians have rejected it. I don't see the BBC writing too many pieces on Japan's extreme xenophobia towards anyone darker than themselves, or the same thing in Korea. Those countries are smart, unlike the West, they know that economic strength and social stability is guaranteed by an ethnically homogeneous population, their consciousness is not clouded by guilt or naive egalitarian fantasies. The reverse is occurring in Western European and NA, the Liberals are attempting to import every starving third worlder for the sake of humanism and their own multicultural vanity. And the devolution of society is already apparent.

Actually, the thing is - Russia is extremely diverse in cultural sense. The different nations were united by the soviet ideology. Currently, when ideology is no longer here - it is a very handy tool to be able to rip the country apart using nationalism.

The only thing is that the soviet ideology which united people, also created a more or less unified way of life that is still present twenty years later. So multicultural in SU actually was pretty much single-cultural, without denying uniqueness of lifestyles. Hmm, sounds a bit confusing, I suppose.

[shaytan]

And what is it that they do? Move about and panhandle and steal and that sort of thing? I thought they died out years ago.

Heroin pushing, street fraud (women-only, men traditionally do not work), kids run around begging.

Very negative image they have here.

[Ichabod]

Heroin pushing, street fraud (women-only, men traditionally do not work), kids run around begging.

Very negative image they have here.

I guess they have a bad image everywhere.We also didn't have problems with gypsies in the old days,but now,when they don't have work,housing,any kind of education........ go figure

[Bongopete]

Wait a sec......what do you mean they go around hypnotising people????

[shaytan]

Wait a sec......what do you mean they go around hypnotising people????

Literally. They seek their targets - often elderly women and young girls. Persuade them to give away gewlery, money - even follow victims to their homes and make them bring out more money and valuables.

Some of them are very skilled in common psychology and hypnosis. Nothing mysterious.

[Bongopete]

Literally. They seek their targets - often elderly women and young girls. Persuade them to give away gewlery, money - even follow victims to their homes and make them bring out more money and valuables.

Some of them are very skilled in common psychology and hypnosis. Nothing mysterious.


They hypnotise them?????? Wow...that must be great when you go to a bar!

[Ichabod]

Ironically today is the Day of Gypsies

[shaytan]

They hypnotise them?????? Wow...that must be great when you go to a bar!

You should try that! :)

[Bongopete]

You should try that! :)

lol if I tried that I would probably be slapped six sides of heaven.

[shaytan]

lol if I tried that I would probably be slapped six sides of heaven.

You are probably not a gypsy woman then! :)

Oh, wait, gypsy woman still would be slapped six sides of heaven!

[Bongopete]

You are probably not a gypsy woman then! :)

Oh, wait, gypsy woman still would be slapped six sides of heaven!

Not that I am aware of......unless......of course....I have been hypnotised and am not aware of it.

[RomanS]

once you are no longer equal to others, the hyenas come out from all over the places, from all different races.



A chechen could be killed in Moscow, a Moscovite could be killed in Chechnya

Discipline that was there..... oh its gone now my man. Its gone. No more crying about it, since Soviet Union was evil, and during those days that kind of crime was quickly extinguished

[shaytan]

once you are no longer equal to others, the hyenas come out from all over the places, from all different races.



Very well put indeed!

Still, giving up is not an option. Trying to rebuild it one child (and maybe a grown-up) at a time can make a difference in the long run.

[RomanS]

Very well put indeed!

Still, giving up is not an option. Trying to rebuild it one child (and maybe a grown-up) at a time can make a difference in the long run.

Exactly, nothing happens over night. Just 15 years ago there was still Soviet Union. They collapsed it, wanting the freedom of all sorts, democracy, and every little place wanted their own country. Now, we cry about racism and crap like that.

It will be another 50 years before things will get stable. Or if they ever will.

Watch documentaries on LA gangs, thats here, thats only a few miles away from our homes.

There is just no reason for complaining. With democracy there will be never discipline. With socialism there will be never a choice of freedom.

Both have minuses, both have pluses. No system is perfect. We just choose one that has a little bit more options and flavor. ;)

[speedythefreak]

Never saw nazi skinhead in SPB or Moscow . In my opinion Moscow or SPB is less dengerous than Warsaw or the same dangerous as London .

Regarding SPB, go to the park in front of the Admiralty building, you'll see plenty of them...

[GhostBuster]

AntiFa is a rapidly growing movement, but unfortunately just as violent and ruthless as the fascists it seeks to exterminate.

Antifarsh is nothing more than scum screaming about "russian fascism".

[Kaapeli]

Good for Russia. Multiculturalism is a failed Liberal pipe dream and I'm glad the Russians have rejected it.

That's unbelievably ignorant. Russia is by definition a multicultural nation. It has never been homogenous but contains a huge diverstity of people and cultures (slavic, finno-ugric, turkic, caucasian, samoyedic...).
And now you come along and call it a failure? Why do you wish harm to the minorities of Russia?


Those countries are smart, unlike the West, they know that economic strength and social stability is guaranteed by an ethnically homogeneous population, their consciousness is not clouded by guilt or naive egalitarian fantasies.

Russia has literally hundreds of different ethnic minorities that are natives of the land. The Federation also has several ethnic republics and federal subjects.


The Russians have a right to determine their own future without some liberals forcing their ridiculous views on them.

Please tell me that you just didn't realize the nature of the Russian ethnic and cultural diversity...

[Afro-European]

Good for Russia. Multiculturalism is a failed Liberal pipe dream and I'm glad the Russians have rejected it.

If Russia doesn't want multiculturalism,then why don't grant independance to those people?
The last time i checked,Russian population was made of Turks, Chechens, Karelians,Mongolians,Tatars,Chuvas,etc.
With such a divers pop.,multiculturalism is inevitable.

[Cstafford]

what is the definition of a Caucasian in Russia. Is it just a white person?

[koalorka]

If Russia doesn't want multiculturalism,then why don't grant independance to those people?

Grant independence to foreign nationals in Russia? BTW, what the hell is an Afro-European? Some kind of oxymoron?

[CPL Trevoga]

I certainly will.As a black, i hope they gonna treat me well :).

Don't worry, you'll be fine. You might get the "looks", but don't get it to heart. Some people probably never saw an African in their lives.



If Russia doesn't want multiculturalism,then why don't grant independance to those people?
The last time i checked,Russian population was made of Turks, Chechens, Karelians,Mongolians,Tatars,Chuvas,etc.
With such a divers pop.,multiculturalism is inevitable.

Multiculturalism as you called it, was very important part of communist ideology. All people are brothers. It was the best part of communist society. Thanks to democrazy and "freedoms", now there are skinheads in Russia, of all things.

[TR1]

what is the definition of a Caucasian in Russia. Is it just a white person?
A caucasian is often refered in Russia as someone with a "litzo Kavkaskoi nationalnitsy", or someone who looks like they are from the Kavkaz region, in the South of Russia. People of various nationalities from this region are also often called Blacks in Russia, sort of an equivalent to the use of "niger" in the USA. Since the 90s feelings of hatred against people from the Kavkaz has exponentially increased, and they have often been the scapegoat used by the gov to blame a multitude of problems.

It must be added though that in the Kavkaz itself, anti-Russia feelings (especially in Chechnya) also increased rapidly post 1990, and extremist Islam began to makes its unpleasant mark.

The reason my immediate family left Russia (I am from Dagestan) in the late 90s was the general anti-Kavkaz feelings among many in the populace, getting to the point that I would get negative reactions from anyone hearing my name (although a certain noble Imam shared it, so did the late Mr. Basaev). Needles to say this made life not altogether pleasant. I might mention though that during the few months I spent in Moscow last year, I saw no skinheads of any sort, and generally the experience was very pleasing; as a result in the relatively near future I might be moving back to Moscow.

[Afro-European]

Grant independence to foreign nationals in Russia? BTW, what the hell is an Afro-European? Some kind of oxymoron?

To Chechens,Tatars,Ingush(whatever you call them),Armenians and other non-Russian looking people that those skinheads and neo-nazis don't want to live with.
Anyway you need to slow down boy,don't exceed your speed coz... Let's keep the discussion clean.

[Afro-European]

Multiculturalism as you called it, was very important part of communist ideology. All people are brothers. It was the best part of communist society. Thanks to democrazy and "freedoms", now there are skinheads in Russia, of all things.

Might reinstating the good old communist ideology be the solution to that problem?

[CPL Trevoga]

Might reinstating the good old communist ideology be the solution to that problem?

It's not so simple, capitalists don't need "All people are brothers." Anyway, just because you're blond doesn't mean you're doesn't mean somebody not going to jump you. Russia's problem with crime is more of economic. If you wander in a wrong poor neighborhood in Moscow or NYC, you going to get it regardless of your race.

I think that, Washington times is full of ****. Most of the DC is black, poor and they have highest murder rate and these descendants of slave owners write about racist Moscow.

I think the story is part of media campaign against Russia.

[Cstafford]

A caucasian is often refered in Russia as someone with a "litzo Kavkaskoi nationalnitsy", or someone who looks like they are from the Kavkaz region, in the South of Russia. People of various nationalities from this region are also often called Blacks in Russia, sort of an equivalent to the use of "niger" in the USA. Since the 90s feelings of hatred against people from the Kavkaz has exponentially increased, and they have often been the scapegoat used by the gov to blame a multitude of problems.

It must be added though that in the Kavkaz itself, anti-Russia feelings (especially in Chechnya) also increased rapidly post 1990, and extremist Islam began to makes its unpleasant mark.

The reason my immediate family left Russia (I am from Dagestan) in the late 90s was the general anti-Kavkaz feelings among many in the populace, getting to the point that I would get negative reactions from anyone hearing my name (although a certain noble Imam shared it, so did the late Mr. Basaev). Needles to say this made life not altogether pleasant. I might mention though that during the few months I spent in Moscow last year, I saw no skinheads of any sort, and generally the experience was very pleasing; as a result in the relatively near future I might be moving back to Moscow.
so its the exact opposite from what i was thinking. A caucasian where i live is the politically correct term for white person.

[CPL Trevoga]

so its the exact opposite from what i was thinking. A caucasian where i live is the politically correct term for white person.

Caucasian in US comes from term to describe Indo-Caucasian race, Euros being part of that race, along with many other nationalities. Caucasian in former Soviet Union actually describes somebody who is from Caucasus mountains region, a geographical location. Which is populated by many nationalities today, like Chechens, Ossetians, Georgians, Armenians, Dagestans and others.

In anthropological terms these peoples, along with Euros, Persians are part of Indo-Caucasian race.

I hope it's confusing enough for you.

[eugenlitwin]

I don't understand how can someone be Russian and support Nazism...it sounds stupid and self-hating almost as Jewish Nazi.Also I don't understand is how they can tell the difference between Chechen and Russian.


edition: see,

http://images.google.se/images?um=1&hl=sv&q=russian+face
http://images.google.se/images?um=1&hl=sv&q=Chechen+face

[1911-a1]

What would these nazis/racist groups think about lets say someone from Serbia?

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

lol because of their "non slavic facials". i thought russian nazi's are proud of their Scandinavian blood due to their Rurik descent, rather than slavic

btw i'm chinese and travelling to moscow next year...hope i won't meet those nazi's....i'm just a tourist not an immigrant!!

[shaytan]

What would these nazis/racist groups think about lets say someone from Serbia?

Russian skinheads are russian nationalists for the most part. I.e. they view slavic nationality as the dominant. So I suppose serbs are fairly safe in contacting these kind of people.

[Flamming_Python]

What would these nazis/racist groups think about lets say someone from Serbia?

Probably mistake them for Caucasians, especially if said Serb has dark, Mediterranean features :)

[11 Bravo]

My take:

This is what happens when Communist ideology, Friendship of the peoples is demonised and discredited. The working class, and people in similar economic situations start to kill each other over the scraps the rich throw to them, when in fact they should be uniting to put pressure on their elite. People start to divide themselves by white-black, christian-islam, russian-caucasian, and then fascism begins to sweep in among all ethnic groups, leading to inter-ethnic violence & chaos.

From what I read, :)

Say what ?????, What are you smoking mr socialist ?.

[TR1]

Say what ?????, What are you smoking mr socialist ?.
I think the better question is what are you smoking? The fall of socialism has been far from the wondrous events that Westerners think it was for many parts of the former SU.

[koalorka]

To Chechens,Tatars,Ingush(whatever you call them),Armenians and other non-Russian looking people that those skinheads and neo-nazis don't want to live with.
Anyway you need to slow down boy,don't exceed your speed coz... Let's keep the discussion clean.

Boy? Hehe, oh dear....

[The Balkan]

lmao @ the irony of Russian Nazis

idiots


And what is it that they do? Move about and panhandle and steal and that sort of thing? I thought they died out years ago.

No but by most predictions you will pretty soon.

[nagant_m44]

I think the better question is what are you smoking? The fall of socialism has been far from the wondrous events that Westerners think it was for many parts of the former SU.

no one expected wonders. Everyone knows it takes time (usually a long time) to change from a controlled economy to a capitalist one.

[Flamming_Python]

Say what ?????, What are you smoking mr socialist ?.

Only the best :D

[dimasorokine]

Moscow a dangerous and racist city? Please, there'd be more chance of you getting your ass handed to you in any number of Los Angeles suburbs.

Depends on how you look at it, Homicide rates between LA and Moscow are pretty much the same...But if your definition of getting your "ass handed to you" is getting shot than LA is much worse, as in moscow you wont get shot - you'll get stabbed or kicked to death instead.

What people don't understand about cities like Moscow is they are very different when it comes to violence when compared to violent North American cities. How?

1. There are much less guns, people kill each other at close range with knives, metal rods, axes, boots etc. (only Gangsters use guns)

3. Russia is a country with a fighting culture, not a gun culture (kinda like Ireland), people are much more willing to fight - its just the way it is. As far as fighting goes, I can't think of many countries where fights break out as often - maybe Scotland and Ireland.

As far as racist violence goes, I'm not quite sure - but as far as violence and murder go Moscow is by far one of the safest cities in Russia.

-Dima

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Some of you blokes need to stop grouping people all in the same basket and stop using labels to define racist groups and actually learn what sub-cutures are all about instead of jumping in on FOXNEWS's definition.

Like when some depressed emo kid goes on a shooting rampage it's because he was "goth" the same deal applies to skinheads.

Manson is not goth. He's just a freak

I have a few friends who are skinheads and you could not get a nicer bunch of blokes and girls and they get deeply upset when Neo-Nazis are called Skinheads.

This is Skinhead

Laurel Aitken a black guy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ufKb5M9Uj4E

[CYW]

I don't understand how can someone be Russian and support Nazism...it sounds stupid and self-hating almost as Jewish Nazi.Also I don't understand is how they can tell the difference between Chechen and Russian.

Its actually very easy to understand why a lot of Russian people support Fascism/Nazism or anything similar. After having lived for over 5 decades in sometimes extreme poverty solely due to the regime's ideological tendencies....you tend to hate those ideological tendencies and you tend to drift to the exact OPPOSITE of that ideology....and whats the exact opposite of Communism?

[Calanen]

I have a few friends who are skinheads and you could not get a nicer bunch of blokes and girls and they get deeply upset when Neo-Nazis are called Skinheads


Remember seeing a group of skins bash up a dude who was handing out socialist newspapers. It was around Christmas time, so one of the skins was singing 'F_ck a red!' to the tune of Jingle Bells. Ah the Christmas spirit....

[intelligenzija]

the problem with russia, when you compare it to western countries is that it hasn't lived through a natural social and political development concering this issue. Look at USA or Germany 1950, 1960 ('Meine Damen und Herren, liebe Neger'), 1970.
It's a constant development of multiculturalism and tolerance. Russia experienced an uncontrolled clash of cultures in many ways after the collapse of the soviet union.
The people there are not more or less racist than in other cultures but the situation gave this disease a rapid grow.

[Sergei]

the problem with russia, when you compare it to western countries is that it hasn't lived through a natural social and political development concering this issue. Look at USA or Germany 1950, 1960 ('Meine Damen und Herren, liebe Neger'), 1970.
It's a constant development of multiculturalism and tolerance. Russia experienced an uncontrolled clash of cultures in many ways after the collapse of the soviet union.
The people there are not more or less racist than in other cultures but the situation gave this disease a rapid grow.

What a bull.....
I am talking about very similar situation for both Ukraine and Russia.
The kavkazoids (people from Kavkaz and Central Asia) are given "a free ride" in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev.
Militsiya is afraid to reveal the numbers on the "ethnic gang crime groups" in Russia and Ukraine. People would then simply revolt and cut the throat of every passing chechen or azeri on a street.

The problem lies in the inability of MVD to battle ethnically-related gang crime from non-russian criminals.
The skinhead is the temporary answer, call it self-defense if you like, although, if the state is not going to pay attention to the numerours ethnic gangs in both Russia and Ukraine, the representative of skinhead movement will sooner or later be the president of either Russia or Ukraine. Because the people really have had it with all those "churki".

[intelligenzija]

What a bull.....
I am talking about very similar situation for both Ukraine and Russia.
The kavkazoids (people from Kavkaz and Central Asia) are given "a free ride" in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev.
Militsiya is afraid to reveal the numbers on the "ethnic gang crime groups" in Russia and Ukraine. People would then simply revolt and cut the throat of every passing chechen or azeri on a street.

The problem lies in the inability of MVD to battle ethnically-related gang crime from non-russian criminals.
The skinhead is the temporary answer, call it self-defense if you like, although, if the state is not going to pay attention to the numerours ethnic gangs in both Russia and Ukraine, the representative of skinhead movement will sooner or later be the president of either Russia or Ukraine. Because the people really have had it with all those "churki".

calm down buddy,
it was not an answer to your post but how I see the whole situation or moreover the reasons.
I am well aware of caucasian gangs controlling rinaks and all that ****. But do you really think racism in other countries has different "reasons"?
It's always about "criminal foreigners" who take the country and the government isn't doing anything about it.
In Europe Turks, Arabs and people from the Balkan, in America you have Hispanics, in Russia "Hachiki".

[Flamming_Python]

the problem with russia, when you compare it to western countries is that it hasn't lived through a natural social and political development concering this issue. Look at USA or Germany 1950, 1960 ('Meine Damen und Herren, liebe Neger'), 1970.
It's a constant development of multiculturalism and tolerance. Russia experienced an uncontrolled clash of cultures in many ways after the collapse of the soviet union.
The people there are not more or less racist than in other cultures but the situation gave this disease a rapid grow.

I thought about that as well, as well as the fact that Russia hasn't gone through all the 'civil society' movements that America has for example. But then again neither have many of the Western nations, and they never needed to, because they either got it right the first time, or made changes gradually and didn't allow minority consciousness to rise to the point where they felt compelled to march down the street en mass in their capitals.

However you should avoid making the same mistake I warned about, assuming that 1917-1991 was a 'lost' period where society didn't develop at all. Society did develop, but simply it's development was not driven by the people (i.e. from below), but from above (i.e. by the state). Compared to any other country in the world, the Soviet Union was extremely forward thinking in terms of social attitudes to different religious & ethnic minorities on its territory, so much so in fact that it didn't even trust it's own people to develop their own society, they were simply judged as too conservative, too backward, too nationalist, etc... (a judgment that was later proved correct when Gorbachev freed the press and in his own words was completely surprised at just how much nationalism there really was in the USSR). The USSR kept civil society under its grip and enforced such concepts as internationalism and friendship of the peoples. This indeed worked while it lasted, but Gorbachev's reforms caused not only free-fall of economy, but also loosening of state controls on society in a very rapid period of only 4-5 years, and these factors combined lead to those suppressed nationalisms exploding and being manipulated by local leaders/bureaucrats keen to establish their own centers of power separate from the decaying Moscow center, dis-information by rival businessmen & politicians, and further fanning of the flames by extremists and foreign agents.

So now society is in a bit of a muddle. It is certainly true that on the surface our situation resembles that of the growing problems in Sweden, or that with the Turks in Germany. However, looking deeper, you will find that just about all our minorities, muslim/christian or any other, still lived in peace with each other as one nation for many decades, are all Russian-speaking & brought up under Soviet culture, and as any former Soviet will point out no matter what his ethnic origin, have relatives who fought and died in WW2 in the Red Army. IMHO there is little need for multi-culturalism, when we all had one culture in common anyway, and little need for just tolerance, when we had friendship & brotherhood before. Hopefully these attitudes will re-emerge when all the neo-nazi fad has gone away.

[Flamming_Python]

calm down buddy,
it was not an answer to your post but how I see the whole situation or moreover the reasons.
I am well aware of caucasian gangs controlling rinaks and all that ****. But do you really think racism in other countries has different "reasons"?
It's always about "criminal foreigners" who take the country and the government isn't doing anything about it.
In Europe Turks, Arabs and people from the Balkan, in America you have Hispanics, in Russia "Hachiki".

x2. Funilly enough all the troubles always stem from the presence of an ethnic group from a lesser economically developed part of the world, who end up fighting with the poorest part of the native society; after all it's those 2 social groups that are in direct competition.

Sergei: Do you honestly think that when it comes to the elite, that rich Russians racially discriminate against rich Uzbeks (I certainly didn't hear anyone protesting when Alisher Usmanov bought Rostopovich's art collection & donated it to a Russian museum), or that the son of Armenia's PM regularly picks fights with Yushchenko's offspring? Even the middle-class in Russia (comprising many different ethnics) is generally united against all forms of 'Bydlo' & 'Gopy'

Give me a break man, all of these fascist hooligans, and all of these bands of 'Kavkazoids' are either the dregs of society, criminals or simply poor, stupid & dis-illusioned people.

As for the 'Kavkazoids', fair enough from what I hear, some groups of them also display fascist attitudes and act disrespectfully to the native population. But do they go around beating up and stabbing innocent natives in the same way that the Neo-Nazi's go around beating & killing Caucasians and other minorities?

[speedythefreak]

What a bull.....
I am talking about very similar situation for both Ukraine and Russia.
The kavkazoids (people from Kavkaz and Central Asia) are given "a free ride" in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev.
Militsiya is afraid to reveal the numbers on the "ethnic gang crime groups" in Russia and Ukraine. People would then simply revolt and cut the throat of every passing chechen or azeri on a street.

The problem lies in the inability of MVD to battle ethnically-related gang crime from non-russian criminals.
The skinhead is the temporary answer, call it self-defense if you like, although, if the state is not going to pay attention to the numerours ethnic gangs in both Russia and Ukraine, the representative of skinhead movement will sooner or later be the president of either Russia or Ukraine. Because the people really have had it with all those "churki".

Have you ever eard of what is called «russian mafia» ? If i understand you it seems like criminality is the monopoly of «ethnic» gangs...Never a mention of «ethnically russians» criminal organizations...Probably its because they all have a legitimate facade now...During the Eltsin period the russian mafia was a serious concern for «western» police forces, and I can tell you these guys were no chechens or tadjiks or Uzbeks, they were «pure» ethnic russians, so stop the bS about foreign related criminality...As the period of the introduction of «market economy» in Russia generated total chaos, a lot of people were in the «survival» mode, the illicit economy grew as much as the legitimate economy and a lot of «pure» ethnic russians who are now rich or close to power have a less then clean record. As for ethnic related crime in Moscow, when I was there 2 years ago with a group of students from Canada, one of the group got drunk in a bar, too much vodka (that's not uncommon to see drunk people in public in Russia...) So the guy went outside for some fresh air, he got unformally arrested by 3 militsiya, put im in the car, emptied his wallet ( 2000 rubles ) but at least they brought him back close to the bar so he didn't get lost...Those 3 cops were ethnic russians. At least I can say that I've never seen cops robbing people in western Europe or North America. If I understand properly some posters in this group Russia should get rid of all non-pure ethnic russians and throw them back home ! What if Russia is their home...Do you know how many of those lived in the former RSFSR: millions. The task of making Russia ethnically «pure» implies a lot of problems since the actual russian state is the result of colonial expansion: what do you do with Tatarstan, kill all the tatars...As for those russian Hitlerites, you must be quite screwed up in you head to admire a regime who massacred 30 millions of you fellow citizens and that states in its official ideology (Mein Kampf) that slaves are an inferior race.

[Bongopete]

Whatever the cause, still sound like the Brown Shirts in '30s Germany waiting for someone like a Hitler to take advantage of them.

[CYW]

As for those russian Hitlerites, you must be quite screwed up in you head to admire a regime who massacred 30 millions of you fellow citizens and that states in its official ideology (Mein Kampf) that slaves are an inferior race.

Well thats not a far cry from THEIR previous regime which was responsible for the death of over 25 million of THEIR OWN people during the Stalin purges...so dont be THAT suprised when you see Russian Hitlerites or Neo-Nazis or wtv

[tony6]

The skinhead is the temporary answer, call it self-defense if you like, although, if the state is not going to pay attention to the numerours ethnic gangs in both Russia and Ukraine, the representative of skinhead movement will sooner or later be the president of either Russia or Ukraine.
Skinheads killing people on the streets being "temporary answer"..?
Christ...

[TR1]

Skinheads killing people on the streets being "temporary answer"..?
Christ...

He's and idiot, dont even bother.

One of those kids that thinks ethnic Ukranians and Russians are like little sheep that are slaughetred and harrased by the "Kavkazoids". LOL. I know personally that it is most often the opposite.

[Sergei]

Have you ever eard of what is called «russian mafia» ? .

Skipped th rest of the rant. The so-called "russian mafia" usually consists of anybody but native russians, usually jews, armenians, ukrainians, kazahs, georgians, you name it. The term was coined for the sake of identifying criminal gangs from the former Soviet Union and since the largest ethnic composition was russian, the term became "russian mafia".

For example, the homicidal maniac Virchis who went on a killing rampage in LA was native ukrainian, while Mishka "Japonchik" the high-profile "russian mafia" baron in US is a jew.

[Bongopete]

Skipped th rest of the rant. The so-called "russian mafia" usually consists of anybody but native russians, usually jews, armenians, ukrainians, kazahs, georgians, you name it. The term was coined for the sake of identifying criminal gangs from the former Soviet Union and since the largest ethnic composition was russian, the term became "russian mafia".

For example, the homicidal maniac Virchis who went on a killing rampage in LA was native ukrainian, while Mishka "Japonchik" the high-profile "russian mafia" baron in US is a jew.

Are you saying that there are no jews in Russia?

[Sergei]

He's and idiot, dont even bother.

One of those kids that thinks ethnic Ukranians and Russians are like little sheep that are slaughetred and harrased by the "Kavkazoids". LOL. I know personally that it is most often the opposite.

Before calling me idiot, check out on the criminal record of the ethnic gangs especially from the Kavkaz going on a rampage in Russia. The number or murders, muggings, rapes and that sort of terrible things. People should already wake up and do something about it and throw those muds out of the country.
You are living on the other side of the planet, yet typing crap over and over again, while I see it happening every day - arrogant "hachi" in cool cars with a serious attitude.

And here also Kondopoga comes to mind. It didn't start out of nothing.
In no way I am defending the skins, but at least I recognise the reason why they actually exist. With the police actually doing its duty and people actually helping out, there wouldn't be any skinhead movement to talk about.

[speedythefreak]

Skipped th rest of the rant. The so-called "russian mafia" usually consists of anybody but native russians, usually jews, armenians, ukrainians, kazahs, georgians, you name it. The term was coined for the sake of identifying criminal gangs from the former Soviet Union and since the largest ethnic composition was russian, the term became "russian mafia".

For example, the homicidal maniac Virchis who went on a killing rampage in LA was native ukrainian, while Mishka "Japonchik" the high-profile "russian mafia" baron in US is a jew.

So there are no «ethnic» russians involved in organised criminality, that's really reassuring...They seem to all live abiding to the precepts of the Russian Orthodox Church: Do not kill your fellows unless they are gays, blacks, muslims, kavkazoids, etc...It seems that there is a serious problem dealing with differences in Russia, the same logic of investing the Other of all that is dirty, unclean, or illicit. The same logic prevailed in Nazi Germany...So there's nothing new under the sun. As for that homicidal maniac Vichis, if I understand you well, he was probably an homicidal maniac because he was a Jew ? Could there be homicidal maniacs of «pure» russians origin ?

[johnM]

¨Well , im going to Russia soon, altough these racist murders have got me afraid. I have been to Ukraine many times, where this racism doesnt exist at all(atleast what i've seen). I am half Ukrainian and half serb which makes me look a bit like im from middle east, which is mostly cuz of my dark hair and a bit darker skin colour(probably through genetic mutation or whatever) and brown eyes.You guys in Russia think it will be safe for me there?

[vi]

Moscow is not particularly dangerous, sure its a big city so there will always be crime and bad areas, but this is just like anywhere in the world. Im sure that if I go to the wrong part of NY in the evening, nothing good will come out of it :)

johnM, Im sure you will be safe, go there, get a fantastic experience and desolve all these myths

[CHERK]

These racial outcries are ridicules, same as in every major western city there are “hate crimes” and I doubt Moscow outstands in “killings per capita category”. Moreover there are no neighborhoods where you would be afraid to go because of your racial identity, which is not the case in Europe and N. America.



What a bull.....
I am talking about very similar situation for both Ukraine and Russia.
The kavkazoids (people from Kavkaz and Central Asia) are given "a free ride" in Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev.
Militsiya is afraid to reveal the numbers on the "ethnic gang crime groups" in Russia and Ukraine. People would then simply revolt and cut the throat of every passing chechen or azeri on a street.

The problem lies in the inability of MVD to battle ethnically-related gang crime from non-russian criminals.
The skinhead is the temporary answer, call it self-defense if you like, although, if the state is not going to pay attention to the numerours ethnic gangs in both Russia and Ukraine, the representative of skinhead movement will sooner or later be the president of either Russia or Ukraine. Because the people really have had it with all those "churki".

You are way off here.

[Shoko'sDaddyLama]

Gypsies??? Are they actually still around? Romania has the biggest population in the world, it numbers into the millions and they are descended from people who tried to leave behind the cast system of India.

[Chulo]

Romania has the biggest population in the world, it numbers into the millions and they are descended from people who tried to leave behind the cast system of India.
Really? what happened to the population of China or India i think they number in the Billion? what time frame are you talking about, and when did this great Indian diaspora happen?

[oswald]

I think he's saying Romania has the largest population of gypsies in the world.

[Chulo]

fine enough, but when was this great Gypsy Diaspora? and what would you consider a Gypsy. and India still have a higher (official) Gypsy population 2.25 million as to .50 million

[Flamming_Python]

fine enough, but when was this great Gypsy Diaspora? and what would you consider a Gypsy. and India still have a higher (official) Gypsy population 2.25 million as to .50 million

Gypsys are basically Northern Indians; they speak a language which is close to Sanscrit. As for their migration, not sure if correct but I think roughly a millennium ago.

[Shoko'sDaddyLama]

Be careful what you read on wikipedia Ceaucescu's official census numbers are greatly disputed, Romania also deflated its Roma numbers so it could enter the EU. Other sources put the figure at 2.5 million Roma - higher than India's 2.25 million (an offical figure which is not disputed)

[dimasorokine]

Skipped th rest of the rant. The so-called "russian mafia" usually consists of anybody but native russians, usually jews, armenians, ukrainians, kazahs, georgians, you name it. The term was coined for the sake of identifying criminal gangs from the former Soviet Union and since the largest ethnic composition was russian, the term became "russian mafia".

For example, the homicidal maniac Virchis who went on a killing rampage in LA was native ukrainian, while Mishka "Japonchik" the high-profile "russian mafia" baron in US is a jew.

Sergei, as someone who has had a big interest in Russian Organized Crime I can tell you that you are wrong in your assumptions. The majority of organized crime groups and criminals within Russia are Russian...as are the majority of the most powerful crime lords (even in Moscow and St. Petersburg).

Not even the mythical Chechen crime groups of 90s Moscow could ever achieve the kind of power the Russian groups had and still have...simply because the ethnic Russians always had the law on their side, and were always on a different level.

You seem to know next to nothing about organized crime within Russia. The only place all former Soviet criminals are called Russians is in the US and West in general - these are the places where an Azeri crime group will be dubbed as Russian Mafia.

-Dima

PS: As for "Yaponchik" (who's name is not "Mishka" - you just made that up), he is ethnically Russian and is faithful to the Russian Orthodox church.
http://www.compromat.ru/main/japonchik/image/oshibka2.jpg

[dimasorokine]

Before calling me idiot, check out on the criminal record of the ethnic gangs especially from the Kavkaz going on a rampage in Russia. The number or murders, muggings, rapes and that sort of terrible things. People should already wake up and do something about it and throw those muds out of the country.
You are living on the other side of the planet, yet typing crap over and over again, while I see it happening every day - arrogant "hachi" in cool cars with a serious attitude.

And here also Kondopoga comes to mind. It didn't start out of nothing.
In no way I am defending the skins, but at least I recognise the reason why they actually exist. With the police actually doing its duty and people actually helping out, there wouldn't be any skinhead movement to talk about.

I understand what you are saying here, and I must agree - a lot of the Kavkazis behave just as bad as the skinheads. For my opinion check out a thread I started months ago:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=122183&highlight=racist+russians

Basically, when Russians behave badly everyone hears about it and we are labeled as Racists. When others do the same, no one cares to report it or call them on their racist and arrogant behavior...However, this is only a problem because "they" are doing it to "us" in our own country - the fact is the overwhelming majority of murders in Russia are ethnic Russian on Ethnic Russian crimes.

-Dima

[The Balkan]

fine enough, but when was this great Gypsy Diaspora? and what would you consider a Gypsy. and India still have a higher (official) Gypsy population 2.25 million as to .50 million

Today Gypsy is just slang for Roma. They are people who came from India and settled in the Balkans and South Europe and etc. They called them Gypsies cuz they thought they were from Egypt.

So when you ask what qualifies as a gypsy....well look in the dictionary.

But that's not the same thing as a Romani.

[Sergei]

Sergei, as someone who has had a big interest in Russian Organized Crime I can tell you that you are wrong in your assumptions.

I could be biased. My house was broken in last month by some georgian "medvezhatniki" who got shipped out of Russia.

They laughed at me in the police station and told me "this is a Georgian year in Ukraine" as all sorts of georgian criminals "thiefs-in-law", barsetka-stealers, car stealers, lock-pickers are finding their way to Ukraine after they got banned in Russia.
We have our own crime and now we have ethnic organised crime, damn :(

[dimasorokine]

I could be biased. My house was broken in last month by some georgian "medvezhatniki" who got shipped out of Russia.

They laughed at me in the police station and told me "this is a Georgian year in Ukraine" as all sorts of georgian criminals "thiefs-in-law", barsetka-stealers, car stealers, lock-pickers are finding their way to Ukraine after they got banned in Russia.
We have our own crime and now we have ethnic organised crime, damn :(

I'm sorry to hear that, and your biased is understandable - personally I would have less hostility towards ethnic Russian burglers than I would towards non Russian ones. This will sound crazy to some people, but in my opinion you tend to forgive and understand those of the same background as you - especially in a country somewhat divided along ethnic lines. And while all this ethnic hatred is bad, I am glad that Russians fight back instead of just giving into crazy liberal western values of simply lying down and taking it from all angles. I wish all the different ethnicities in Russia could live in peace, but I just don't think its possible at this time...

-Dima

[speedythefreak]

I'm sorry to hear that, and your biased is understandable - personally I would have less hostility towards ethnic Russian burglers than I would towards non Russian ones. This will sound crazy to some people, but in my opinion you tend to forgive and understand those of the same background as you - especially in a country somewhat divided along ethnic lines. And while all this ethnic hatred is bad, I am glad that Russians fight back instead of just giving into crazy liberal western values of simply lying down and taking it from all angles. I wish all the different ethnicities in Russia could live in peace, but I just don't think its possible at this time...

-Dima

So what is your solution ? In a way Russia is no different from other former colonial empires. The russian State expanded physically unto «others» territories: Kavkaz, Tatarstan, Bashkortorstan, etc...submiting those peoples, you guys should be happy, they all speak and write russian and as I was in Moscow, a lot of them seemed quite well integrated...For how long Tatarstan has been a part of Russia ? So maybe now according to the National-socialist bs, these foreigners should be eliminated...These guys consider themselves as «locals» or «natives». As opposed to the «West» who has to deal with massive waves foreign migrants, with some difficulties I agree, Russia has to deal with both internal (internal Others)and external migrants, mostly from former Central Asian republics who in the first place didn't want to separate from the USSR , they just followed the parade of sovereignties lauched by Eltsin. Maybe the solution could for Russia is to reinstate the former limits of the GrandDuchy of Novgorod, that would make it easier to pursue a politic of ethnic purification...All blond guys and girls, white, speaking russian, living under the spiritual guidance of the Church and a strong leader. It strangely reminds me of another similar projet not so long ago...

[johnM]

So, to conclude this discussion, murders in moscow are being called as racial hate crimes in the west? I know for fact that yes there are racist everywhere, but im more worried about moscow, cuz ive seen these documentaries about nazi-groups training and all and patrolling streets in St.Petersburg. Anyone that live in these cities that can tell their opinion?

[Paya]

¨Well , im going to Russia soon, altough these racist murders have got me afraid. I have been to Ukraine many times, where this racism doesnt exist at all(atleast what i've seen). I am half Ukrainian and half serb which makes me look a bit like im from middle east, which is mostly cuz of my dark hair and a bit darker skin colour(probably through genetic mutation or whatever) and brown eyes.You guys in Russia think it will be safe for me there?
Nah, you'll be fine. I've been to Petrograd a few years back and have been told I look like a Kavkazian (probably because I'm tall, dark and handsome p-) ), and had no trouble whatsoever. Well, apart from babushkas chasing me around with ushankas. :)

[vi]

So, to conclude this discussion, murders in moscow are being called as racial hate crimes in the west?
I suppose. What are the statistics on hate crimes in the West?


I know for fact that yes there are racist everywhere, but im more worried about moscow, cuz ive seen these documentaries about nazi-groups training and all and patrolling streets in St.Petersburg. Anyone that live in these cities that can tell their opinion?
Was it the documentary by Ross Kemp? If so, then please be comforted by the fact that the main leader of that gang is already in prison :)
I havent seen a single skinhead (in fact, I dont think I have ever seen a nazi-skinhead in the whole of Russia) when I was in St Petersburg last May and never seen any in Moscow during my visits (I go there at least three times a year). You should totally go to St Petes, its one of the most amazing cities in the world and its beauty just took my breath away, while Moscow is also beautiful in its own way

From what I obsered recently, there is a crackdown on both skinheads and ethnic gangs going on, because they are simply too dangerous for a multi-ethnic society such as the Russian one. The issue of ethnic crime gangs and general rude behavior by some representatives from these ethnic groups is just as important as that of skinheads, but lets realize that this is only the minority which spoils the image of the whole group. I think these kinds of racial tensions are inevitable after what Russia has gone through in the 90's, so lets hope that things are finally starting to change for the better.

Where do skinheads come from? I bet that the skinheads come from the poorest and most unfortunate families. So the solution that I am proposing to fight racism is through economic growth and development, through higher quality of law enforcement and social security, through fighting poverty and extremist views(on both sides of course), etc.. On the economic front there is some progress already with Russia set to become the 2nd economy in Europe this year!

[dimasorokine]

So what is your solution ? In a way Russia is no different from other former colonial empires. The russian State expanded physically unto «others» territories: Kavkaz, Tatarstan, Bashkortorstan, etc...submiting those peoples, you guys should be happy, they all speak and write russian and as I was in Moscow, a lot of them seemed quite well integrated...For how long Tatarstan has been a part of Russia ? So maybe now according to the National-socialist bs, these foreigners should be eliminated...These guys consider themselves as «locals» or «natives». As opposed to the «West» who has to deal with massive waves foreign migrants, with some difficulties I agree, Russia has to deal with both internal (internal Others)and external migrants, mostly from former Central Asian republics who in the first place didn't want to separate from the USSR , they just followed the parade of sovereignties lauched by Eltsin. Maybe the solution could for Russia is to reinstate the former limits of the GrandDuchy of Novgorod, that would make it easier to pursue a politic of ethnic purification...All blond guys and girls, white, speaking russian, living under the spiritual guidance of the Church and a strong leader. It strangely reminds me of another similar projet not so long ago...

Don't try and put words in my mouth, or make me out to be a racist...I'm far from it. Yes, a lot of Chechens, Azeris, Dagestanis are good people - most are as with any ethnicity. However, Russia is not comparable with the US - its more comparable with the Balkans...people who have fought wars live side by side and nationalism is extremely strong among all ethnicities...

-Dima

PS: Tatars actually get along well with Russians.

[vi]

people who have fought wars live side by side and nationalism is extremely strong among all ethnicities...
I think you are overdramatizing the situation. There is extremism in Caucasus, but I would say that most ethnic groups get on well with the Russians and are highly integrated. Havent heard of many problems with Chuvash, Marij, Tatars, Bashkirs, Udmurts, Karel, Morda, Buryat, etc.

[dimasorokine]

I think you are overdramatizing the situation. There is extremism in Caucasus, but I would say that most ethnic groups get on well with the Russians and are highly integrated. Havent heard of many problems with Chuvash, Marij, Tatars, Bashkirs, Udmurts, Karel, Morda, Buryat, etc.

You're right, I'm more so referring to ethnicities from the Caucasus - Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Ossetia etc. As I've stated in my other post, the Tatars and other ethnic groups generally get along better with ethnic Russians.

-Dima

[speedythefreak]

Don't try and put words in my mouth, or make me out to be a racist...I'm far from it. Yes, a lot of Chechens, Azeris, Dagestanis are good people - most are as with any ethnicity. However, Russia is not comparable with the US - its more comparable with the Balkans...people who have fought wars live side by side and nationalism is extremely strong among all ethnicities...

-Dima

PS: Tatars actually get along well with Russians.

No offence intended, I was trying to adress a more global situation not you personnaly: the rise of xenophobia in russian society. I'll make my point more clear: with slogans like russia to russians spreading, the Kremlin instead of adressing the problem of a multi-cultural/ethnic society turns a blind eye on it, even encourages it. As there no real independance of the legal system (tribunals] from the executive power ( trial results are often dictated by political authorities...) we can say that charges of «hooliganism» against those involved in racist murders shows a great tolerance of the regime...When asked in 1999 by western scholars, if he had a national ideal or projet for Russia comparable to soviet internationalism, Putin answered that there was no need for it, instead the war in Chechnya paved the way for the spreading of nationalism among various «ethnic» groups. These nationalist discourse are hardly compatible with the multi-ethnic nature of the russian state.

[Flamming_Python]

No offence intended, I was trying to adress a more global situation not you personnaly: the rise of xenophobia in russian society. I'll make my point more clear: with slogans like russia to russians spreading, the Kremlin instead of adressing the problem of a multi-cultural/ethnic society turns a blind eye on it, even encourages it. As there no real independance of the legal system (tribunals] from the executive power ( trial results are often dictated by political authorities...) we can say that charges of «hooliganism» against those involved in racist murders shows a great tolerance of the regime...When asked in 1999 by western scholars, if he had a national ideal or projet for Russia comparable to soviet internationalism, Putin answered that there was no need for it, instead the war in Chechnya paved the way for the spreading of nationalism among various «ethnic» groups. These nationalist discourse are hardly compatible with the multi-ethnic nature of the russian state.

I doubt the Kremlin encourages it, although I fully agree it is not doing enough to stop it. Nationalism resulted in the collapse of the USSR (and threw everything into chaos, warfare & poverty), and now it looks like at least a considerable proportion of the new generation is just as dumb as the previous one, having learnt ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the collapse of the Soviet Union, and in fact falling for the VERY SAME slogans that were repeated 20 years ago!

The problem with it is, that once it spreads to one group, animosity begins to build, and it quickly spreads to all the groups around it. Like a contageous disease or something. And the worst thing is, often it just happens subtly before you even realise it. Similar to how, over the last 15 years, many Westeners (and Muslims living in Western countries) started to divide people based on whether they are Christian or Muslim. Our only hope for avoiding it, is to continue stable development of the economy and society, and show that Russia is a real force for modernisation. The fact that it is only a small minority of different ethnic groups who are active nationalists didn't prevent riots and conflicts breaking out during perestroika times, and their ideas spreading once the Soviet economy caved in when the price of gas & oil hit rock bottom during the late 80's.

I sound a bit alarmist I suppose. In reality it's not so bad in Russia (hell of a lot quieter than 89-91, that's for sure), and i'm sure that if economic development continues, things will gradually get calmer. I just can't stress enough how heartbreaking it is to have your country shatter into pieces all because of a few stupid and greedy individuals. I would certainly never wish such a fate to Western nations, no matter how many of them gloat over the break up of the USSR.

[Flamming_Python]

You're right, I'm more so referring to ethnicities from the Caucasus - Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Ossetia etc. As I've stated in my other post, the Tatars and other ethnic groups generally get along better with ethnic Russians.

-Dima

Your problem, is that you are thinking about things from the point of view of an ethnic Russian. It's a viewpoint just as valid as any other, but like any 1 viewpoint, it constricts your thinking. Forget that you are one for a secound, and think about things from a purely abstract perspective, if you want to understand the situation better. Or perhaps from the viewpoint of another:

For example, if you are an Ingush, who came to Moscow to work and provide money for your family. You are aware that many of your kind have been driven to smuggling drugs lets say, due in part, by their general poverty and lack of economic oppurtunities in your republic. You will find many Russians (doesn't have to be the majority, just many) simply have a negative attitude to you as soon as you tell them your name. The only people who will welcome you with open arms, are other Ingushetians, and other people whose names cause negative reactions amongst Russians (i.e. Dagestani's, and even the Ossetian's with whom the Ingush back home have many problems with). This is how social groups build and seperate, and as a result you may well find more hostile attitudes amongst Moscow's Ingush arrivals, than amongst the actual Ingush from Ingushetia, who are much more concerned with neighbouring Ossetians, and would generally have good relations and a high opinion of their Russian neighbours in the republic who are accustomed to the Causcases and don't share the racist attitudes of the Moskovites.

[Bongopete]

This is very interesting and somewhat informative..but I have a question.
I am American, and since the fall of the Soviet Union have wanted to visit Moscow and see some museums and the city. How dangerous is it now to visit?

[Flamming_Python]

This is very interesting and somewhat informative..but I have a question.
I am American, and since the fall of the Soviet Union have wanted to visit Moscow and see some museums and the city. How dangerous is it now to visit?

lol, from this discussion you must have reached the conclusion that there is a war in the streets going on. As many other posters have said, you'll be fine :)

[Bongopete]

lol, from this discussion you must have reached the conclusion that there is a war in the streets going on. As many other posters have said, you'll be fine :)

no no...I never thought there was a war in the streets...just wondered if there was a large anti (insert country) movement that is looking for trouble.

[vi]

This is very interesting and somewhat informative..but I have a question.
I am American, and since the fall of the Soviet Union have wanted to visit Moscow and see some museums and the city. How dangerous is it now to visit?
I doubt Moscow is more dangerous than the average American large city :)


So, in conclusion, do it!!!

[Bongopete]

I doubt Moscow is more dangerous than the average American large city :)


So, in conclusion, do it!!!


Good.
On the other hand, in American cities I dont have to worry about being attacked because I am an American....well maybe along the border.....

[vi]

On a more constructive note, please check out the Moscow photo thread, its one of the best ones I have seen:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=604682

[dimasorokine]

No offence intended, I was trying to adress a more global situation not you personnaly: the rise of xenophobia in russian society. I'll make my point more clear: with slogans like russia to russians spreading, the Kremlin instead of adressing the problem of a multi-cultural/ethnic society turns a blind eye on it, even encourages it. As there no real independance of the legal system (tribunals] from the executive power ( trial results are often dictated by political authorities...) we can say that charges of «hooliganism» against those involved in racist murders shows a great tolerance of the regime...When asked in 1999 by western scholars, if he had a national ideal or projet for Russia comparable to soviet internationalism, Putin answered that there was no need for it, instead the war in Chechnya paved the way for the spreading of nationalism among various «ethnic» groups. These nationalist discourse are hardly compatible with the multi-ethnic nature of the russian state.

That take I can live with :) IMO though things aren't as complicated or political as some people believe. At first glance, it might look like there is tolerance towards racially motivated murders and attacks within Russia - but if you hold back the typical "racist Russians" knee jerk responce you will realize that there is a high tolerance towards murders and crimes in general, no matter who is being killed (unless its a famous person). In Russia, life is cheap and the police will often miss label crimes to doctor crime statistics in order to make themselves look good. Murders of all kinds are often labeled accidents to save time on investigations - this is widely practiced among the Militsia - especially outside Moscow and St. Petersburg.

So when a racist murder is classified as "hooliganism" its often NOT a conspiracy against non-Russians, its a lazy cop making his job easier.

You simply can't hold Russia and judge it a the same standards as highly developed Western Nations.

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

Your problem, is that you are thinking about things from the point of view of an ethnic Russian. It's a viewpoint just as valid as any other, but like any 1 viewpoint, it constricts your thinking. Forget that you are one for a secound, and think about things from a purely abstract perspective, if you want to understand the situation better. Or perhaps from the viewpoint of another:

For example, if you are an Ingush, who came to Moscow to work and provide money for your family. You are aware that many of your kind have been driven to smuggling drugs lets say, due in part, by their general poverty and lack of economic oppurtunities in your republic. You will find many Russians (doesn't have to be the majority, just many) simply have a negative attitude to you as soon as you tell them your name. The only people who will welcome you with open arms, are other Ingushetians, and other people whose names cause negative reactions amongst Russians (i.e. Dagestani's, and even the Ossetian's with whom the Ingush back home have many problems with). This is how social groups build and seperate, and as a result you may well find more hostile attitudes amongst Moscow's Ingush arrivals, than amongst the actual Ingush from Ingushetia, who are much more concerned with neighbouring Ossetians, and would generally have good relations and a high opinion of their Russian neighbours in the republic who are accustomed to the Causcases and don't share the racist attitudes of the Moskovites.

If you've read most of my other posts on this forum you will realize that I nearly always try and see things from more than one angle...This however is different as when it comes to the subject of Russians and Racism the one viewpoint that is never heard is the Russian one (at least in the west).

Again, what most westerners don't realize is that Russians are the poor people of Russia - most westerners are quick to paint a picture of poor, desperate people from the Caucuses being abused and battered by the rich Russians...this is an insane point of view. Ethnic Russians (the majority of the population) are the most effected by poverty, alcoholism, high murder rates, high suicide rates, drug abuse, HIV and so on - infact, most Caucus republics have much higher life expectancies, and much lower Murder / Suicide rates (along with all the other bad stuff) than regions where Russians make up the majority of the population.

Russia's problem is that of poverty and hardship, not racism and discrimination. Everyone lives in the same mess, and ethnic Russians are NOT given a special pass or treatment by the government, militsia or Army - everyone is treated badly.

All this reminds me of the Baltic states labeling all Russians as evil murderers for what the Soviet Government did to them without understanding that everyone else was treated the same. This is the part that bothers me most. I don't hate or dislike any ethnic group like some members of this forum, it is expected for a Chechen to dislike Russians in general (its only natural) - I just hate the double standards. There is a reason for everything:the Chechen war is the reason for a Chechen to hate a Russian, the Chechen's hate and arrogance is a reason for Russians to hate him back.

-Dima

[Flamming_Python]

If you've read most of my other posts on this forum you will realize that I nearly always try and see things from more than one angle...This however is different as when it comes to the subject of Russians and Racism the one viewpoint that is never heard is the Russian one (at least in the west).

Again, what most westerners don't realize is that Russians are the poor people of Russia - most westerners are quick to paint a picture of poor, desperate people from the Caucuses being abused and battered by the rich Russians...this is an insane point of view. Ethnic Russians (the majority of the population) are the most effected by poverty, alcoholism, high murder rates, high suicide rates, drug abuse, HIV and so on - infact, most Caucus republics have much higher life expectancies, and much lower Murder / Suicide rates (along with all the other bad stuff) than regions where Russians make up the majority of the population.

Russia's problem is that of poverty and hardship, not racism and discrimination. Everyone lives in the same mess, and ethnic Russians are NOT given a special pass or treatment by the government, militsia or Army - everyone is treated badly.

All this reminds me of the Baltic states labeling all Russians as evil murderers for what the Soviet Government did to them without understanding that everyone else was treated the same. This is the part that bothers me most. I don't hate or dislike any ethnic group like some members of this forum, it is expected for a Chechen to dislike Russians in general (its only natural) - I just hate the double standards. There is a reason for everything:the Chechen war is the reason for a Chechen to hate a Russian, the Chechen's hate and arrogance is a reason for Russians to hate him back.

-Dima

X2, well said.

Only one thing: I remember you once mentioned how you once went onto a Caucasian forum, and were surprised by the rabid nationalism & russophobia there. Now imagine a Caucasian coming to this forum, and seeing the posts by Doublethinker, Sergei & others.

Resentment breeds resentment. Too bad, but a fact of life.

[jokuvaan]

Any multimillion city is dangerous, more there is people, more there are nutcases. Then comes other factors like unemployment rate, drug use, overall wealth, cultural factors and so on.

What comes to "getting along", Soviet Union was so over-massive that its disintegration hasnt stopped yet and wont stop for a some time. There are many ethnic groups "trapped" inside of it that wont get along very well.

[Digimon]

There is one problem: until recently, crimes committed for racist or nationalist reasons could not be classified under the Criminal Code because it did not accommodate this type of motive qualification. Hooliganism, however, is used in the Criminal Code to qualify crimes committed for no reason or without clear purpose ( unlike e.g. robbery, hijacking, etc…). So the reason why these crimes were qualified as hooliganism (which is a type of crime normally committed by teenagers without clear purpose, and which, as a result, constitute petty crimes, like breaking windows or smashing street lights) is not because they were considered petty (like smashing lights or windows) but rather due to the inadequacy of the Criminal Code. Media, of course, neither knows nor really cares for the real reasons - the story where the cops cover up racism is a better story than one in which they are just trying to do their job with the tools that they have at their disposal.

This, of course, does not mean that the cops would not close their eyes to the problem if they could do it – it’s just that qualifying the crimes as hooliganism, in this case, is not an instance of it.

[dimasorokine]

X2, well said.

Only one thing: I remember you once mentioned how you once went onto a Caucasian forum, and were surprised by the rabid nationalism & russophobia there. Now imagine a Caucasian coming to this forum, and seeing the posts by Doublethinker, Sergei & others.

Resentment breeds resentment. Too bad, but a fact of life.

Of course I agree, there are plenty of Russians out there with hostile attitudes towards people from the Caucuses. However, the forums I mentioned are on par with skinhead and nationalist Russian forums - its nearly 100% anti Russian with long well thought out posts justifying the hate...

But this is understandable, as small minorities are much less diverse with their opinions. This goes for Chechens X10 as most were directly affected by the Chechen wars.

But like you said "resentment breeds resentment" :(

-Dima

[Flamming_Python]

Of course I agree, there are plenty of Russians out there with hostile attitudes towards people from the Caucuses. However, the forums I mentioned are on par with skinhead and nationalist Russian forums - its nearly 100% anti Russian with long well thought out posts justifying the hate...

But this is understandable, as small minorities are much less diverse with their opinions. This goes for Chechens X10 as most were directly affected by the Chechen wars.

But like you said "resentment breeds resentment" :(

-Dima

I don't think it's all that bad. Many of these 'haters' themselves live in Moscow, where as I mentioned the inter-ethnic relations are probably worse than in the actual republics.

Add to that the fact that these are by nature nationalist forums; trying to find a Russia Friendly there is like looking for Socialists in a Neo-Nazi forum. Not every Caucasian is interested in or pays much attention to inter-ethnic relations, similar to how most Russians don't. Of the ones that do, the pro-Russians may be more likely to hang out at more general forums, instead of going to forums specifically about their republics.

Like you I am also concerned about ethnic relations, and took it upon myself to glance over many different forums of ru-net to learn about the views of different peoples.

I'll tell you one thing. There is an all-Causcasian forum (h**p://www.interkavkaz.info) where below the avatars there is an option for members to declare their nationality and religion. Most do, and if you take even a casual look at the site, you'll find that the majority of Azeri's there are the most virulent, vile Russophobes on the planet, along with many other peoples on the site.

There is also another forum, an Azerbaijani one (h**p://www.az-maz.com/forum/index.php) with most users centered in Baku. In there you get all sorts of political views, including the same KAVKAZ ETO SILA fascist provocateurs, but overwhelmingly most users take a balanced perspective and have a positive view of the Russian people and of Russian culture. Many say that they are upset with the political situation between Russia and Azerbaijan and consider it sad that the 'brotherly' Russian nation supports Armenia.

So like I said, it all depends. Don't get too worked up over it, and don't listen to other's stories, make your own mind up about a people based on your own experiences with them rather than the experiences of others, that's how gossip, rumors and fairy tales are created...

[Sergei]

Good.
On the other hand, in American cities I dont have to worry about being attacked because I am an American....well maybe along the border.....

You have been reading these boards too much.....

It is much safer than say LA or Detroit in the evening, and I have been to both.

[Sergei]

X2, well said.

Only one thing: I remember you once mentioned how you once went onto a Caucasian forum, and were surprised by the rabid nationalism & russophobia there. Now imagine a Caucasian coming to this forum, and seeing the posts by Doublethinker, Sergei & others.

Resentment breeds resentment. Too bad, but a fact of life.

I wasn't like that until I visited Chechen-Ingush republic back in the soviet days. Damn, I had 3 fiist fights in just 4 days - the locals wouldn't let my girlfriend pass by and several times I was rescued by my friends from Antonov Design bureau who also had a vacation there. It is normal for a chechen to start a fight with 15 on 1, actually they are very proud of that.
So yes, I will say it again, this "peace" bull works until you personally meet people who you preach are "peaceful and nice".
The chechens are well and truly stuck in the 13th century with their "warrior culture" and total disdain for slavic women who they treat as prostitutes (every single woman) and therefore they can be raped and killed at your leisure.
So what happened in 1992-1994 when they started randomly killing the slavic population of Chechen republic doesn't surprise me one bit.

[dimasorokine]

I don't think it's all that bad. Many of these 'haters' themselves live in Moscow, where as I mentioned the inter-ethnic relations are probably worse than in the actual republics.

Add to that the fact that these are by nature nationalist forums; trying to find a Russia Friendly there is like looking for Socialists in a Neo-Nazi forum. Not every Caucasian is interested in or pays much attention to inter-ethnic relations, similar to how most Russians don't. Of the ones that do, the pro-Russians may be more likely to hang out at more general forums, instead of going to forums specifically about their republics.

Like you I am also concerned about ethnic relations, and took it upon myself to glance over many different forums of ru-net to learn about the views of different peoples.

I'll tell you one thing. There is an all-Causcasian forum (h**p://www.interkavkaz.info) where below the avatars there is an option for members to declare their nationality and religion. Most do, and if you take even a casual look at the site, you'll find that the majority of Azeri's there are the most virulent, vile Russophobes on the planet, along with many other peoples on the site.

There is also another forum, an Azerbaijani one (h**p://www.az-maz.com/forum/index.php) with most users centered in Baku. In there you get all sorts of political views, including the same KAVKAZ ETO SILA fascist provocateurs, but overwhelmingly most users take a balanced perspective and have a positive view of the Russian people and of Russian culture. Many say that they are upset with the political situation between Russia and Azerbaijan and consider it sad that the 'brotherly' Russian nation supports Armenia.

So like I said, it all depends. Don't get too worked up over it, and don't listen to other's stories, make your own mind up about a people based on your own experiences with them rather than the experiences of others, that's how gossip, rumors and fairy tales are created...

I have to say, I never pre-judge indeviduals - especially considering the fact that here in Toronto the Russians, Azeris, Armenians, Georgians, Ukrainians all stick together in one big former Soviet circle for the most part. I play basketball with Jewish Azeris, Muslims, Russians, Blacks etc and all are good friends - I guess when you are thrown into a foreign country you realize how much things we have in common :)

This also leads me to believe that if Russia wasn't a cut-throat society people would have less reasons to stick with their own kind.

So when it comes to living my life, Russian / Kavkazi relations have 0 influence on what I do. But it is my general opinion that when it comes to Racism, crime and everything bad Russians are usually labeled as the bad guys and Kavkazis as victims (when in fact they are just as bad).

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

I wasn't like that until I visited Chechen-Ingush republic back in the soviet days. Damn, I had 3 fiist fights in just 4 days - the locals wouldn't let my girlfriend pass by and several times I was rescued by my friends from Antonov Design bureau who also had a vacation there. It is normal for a chechen to start a fight with 15 on 1, actually they are very proud of that.
So yes, I will say it again, this "peace" bull works until you personally meet people who you preach are "peaceful and nice".
The chechens are well and truly stuck in the 13th century with their "warrior culture" and total disdain for slavic women who they treat as prostitutes (every single woman) and therefore they can be raped and killed at your leisure.
So what happened in 1992-1994 when they started randomly killing the slavic population of Chechen republic doesn't surprise me one bit.

Things like this make me angry too, naturally when "they" do something to "us" I get upset. But your story reminds me of what my stepfather and one of his nephews (they are Serbians) had to say about Russians...My step father was nearly beaten to death by a group of thugs, and his nephew was beaten up and robbed twice - needless to say, we Russians look a little on the savage side to them.

-Dima

[Flamming_Python]

I have to say, I never pre-judge indeviduals - especially considering the fact that here in Toronto the Russians, Azeris, Armenians, Georgians, Ukrainians all stick together in one big former Soviet circle for the most part. I play basketball with Jewish Azeris, Muslims, Russians, Blacks etc and all are good friends - I guess when you are thrown into a foreign country you realize how much things we have in common :)


Noticed that as well. Despite all the troubles back in the Motherland, here in London all the Russians, Caucasians, Central Asians, even Baltics and some Russian speaking Eastern Europeans still go to the same Russian Parties, Clubs, Russian Winter Festival, etc... I guess that's why all the Westeners here all group us into "Russians", and none of us has a real problem with that.

Here in Brighton I spend my time often with Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Russian Jews, etc... We all know each other.


So when it comes to living my life, Russian / Kavkazi relations have 0 influence on what I do. But it is my general opinion that when it comes to Racism, crime and everything bad Russians are usually labeled as the bad guys and Kavkazis as victims (when in fact they are just as bad).

-DimaI absolutely agree, fascists are just bad in general and should be gotten rid off ASAP :)


I wasn't like that until I visited Chechen-Ingush republic back in the soviet days. Damn, I had 3 fiist fights in just 4 days - the locals wouldn't let my girlfriend pass by and several times I was rescued by my friends from Antonov Design bureau who also had a vacation there. It is normal for a chechen to start a fight with 15 on 1, actually they are very proud of that.
So yes, I will say it again, this "peace" bull works until you personally meet people who you preach are "peaceful and nice".
The chechens are well and truly stuck in the 13th century with their "warrior culture" and total disdain for slavic women who they treat as prostitutes (every single woman) and therefore they can be raped and killed at your leisure.
So what happened in 1992-1994 when they started randomly killing the slavic population of Chechen republic doesn't surprise me one bit.

Sounds like a very barbaric place alright.

[CPL Trevoga]

Euros already got a taste of Chechen culture. I remember a Chechen from the mountains cut up that Van Gogh guy.

[Snoshi]

Euros already got a taste of Chechen culture. I remember a Chechen from the mountains cut up that Van Gogh guy.

?? The killer was from Morocco..

[Afro-European]

?? The killer was from Morocco..

I second that.His killer Mohammed Bouyeri is a Moroccan.

[Vympel]

HDuring the Eltsin period the russian mafia was a serious concern for «western» police forces, and I can tell you these guys were no chechens or tadjiks or Uzbeks, they were «pure» ethnic russians, so stop the bS about foreign related criminality...

PURE SH:T. You dont know nothing about russian mafia, if you talking about pure russians and etc. Karoche, ask anyone from russia who remember 90-98.

[Vympel]

¨I am half Ukrainian and half serb which makes me look a bit like im from middle east, which is mostly cuz of my dark hair and a bit darker skin colour(probably through genetic mutation or whatever)
In russia:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/images/index/logo.jpg
by the way, it is a joke

[CPL Trevoga]

I second that.His killer Mohammed Bouyeri is a Moroccan.

I stand corrected, but I just want to let you know that Turkey is most visited place by Russians. Turks are like ultimate Kavkaz people, so why would they visit that place if they hate Kavkaz people so much? Because they don't, the article was written by a British Chav. Let's talk about Brits, those most evil people that ever walked the earth.

[Deurzakker]

I stand corrected, but I just want to let you know that Turkey is most visited place by Russians. Turks are like ultimate Kavkaz people, so why would they visit that place if they hate Kavkaz people so much? Because they don't, the article was written by a British Chav. Let's talk about Brits, those most evil people that ever walked the earth.

Because it's cheap, sunny and they don't need to apply for a visa in advance?

I'm just guessing though ;)

[Russian_dude]

I stand corrected, but I just want to let you know that Turkey is most visited place by Russians. Turks are like ultimate Kavkaz people, so why would they visit that place if they hate Kavkaz people so much? Because they don't, the article was written by a British Chav. Let's talk about Brits, those most evil people that ever walked the earth.

Dude you are SOOO off. Turks are not the same as people from the Caucauses. They are from Turkic tribes... originally from the 'Stans. They only came to Anatolia pretty recently. The people in the Caucuses always lived there.

[Afro-European]

I stand corrected, but I just want to let you know that Turkey is most visited place by Russians. Turks are like ultimate Kavkaz people, so why would they visit that place if they hate Kavkaz people so much? Because they don't, the article was written by a British Chav. Let's talk about Brits, those most evil people that ever walked the earth.

Do Turks and Chechens(or other "Kavkazians") look the same?
PS:You comment on Brits is off the hook.

[abhaz]

Do Turks and Chechens(or other "Kavkazians") look the same?
PS:You comment on Brits is off the hook.

Not at all. Chechens look way more russians. You even have blond and redhair chechens.

[abhaz]

VLADIVOSTOK, April 15 (Itar-Tass) - At least forty Russian and Chinese students clashed in central Vladivostok on Tuesday. Several people have been hurt, 1st vice-principal of the Vladivostok State University of Economy and Services (VGUES) for public relations Andrei Kalachinsky said.
"Chinese students from the Far Eastern State Technical University and Russian VGUES students took part in the melee," Kalachinsky said, adding that "several brawlers have been hurt, according to preliminary reports."
A verbal quarrel quickly escalated to a fistfight and students then used knives against each other. Eyewitnesses later said there were at least forty people involved in the fight.
Ambulances sped away after collecting three or four wounded, according to eyewitnesses' accounts.
Police have detained several students and launched an investigation.
Vladivostok's law-enforcement bodies confirmed the fact of fight to Itar-Tass, but declined to comment.

http://itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12583286&PageNum=0

[Afro-European]

VLADIVOSTOK, April 15 (Itar-Tass) - At least forty Russian and Chinese students clashed in central Vladivostok on Tuesday. Several people have been hurt, 1st vice-principal of the Vladivostok State University of Economy and Services (VGUES) for public relations Andrei Kalachinsky said.
"Chinese students from the Far Eastern State Technical University and Russian VGUES students took part in the melee," Kalachinsky said, adding that "several brawlers have been hurt, according to preliminary reports."
A verbal quarrel quickly escalated to a fistfight and students then used knives against each other. Eyewitnesses later said there were at least forty people involved in the fight.
Ambulances sped away after collecting three or four wounded, according to eyewitnesses' accounts.
Police have detained several students and launched an investigation.
Vladivostok's law-enforcement bodies confirmed the fact of fight to Itar-Tass, but declined to comment.

http://itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12583286&PageNum=0


Is this incident racially motived or not?

[abhaz]

Is this incident racially motived or not?
judge by yourself. As far as I know tensions are also getting high in far east where koreans and chinese are slowly taking over Russia.

[INAT]

The title and story is BS.Lets base our opinion of a major world city on the actions of a small group of individuals.:roll:
I mean racially motivated crimes occur everywhere.Los Angeles as we speak is having
what some would see as a major problem with Mexican and African-American gangs killing each other in South Los Angeles can we by those actions say Los Angeles is a dangerous and racist city? I have been there a million times with no such problems nor
do I personally know anyone who has.I am not going to base my view of LA or America on the actions of these two gangs.Come one people common sense.