Can someone please explain War in Chechnya to me?

[shrek]

Ok, I am an college educated 30 something year old man that doesn’t understand one damn bit about what’s going on, has gone on, or will continue to go on in the war in Chechnya. Can someone please explain, in nice, unbiased terms, why they’re fighting, who all is fighting and how it will ever end? I have been in the intel. business in one form or another for most of my adult life, but the European theater was not my thing, so sue me, I’m stupid about some things. You can PM me if you don’t want to start a flame or just send me a link to a good over viewing article on the subject. Thanks in advance!!

[mack pl]

Chechnya? Hmmm, man, its long history.Well, Chechens fighting for freedom, not first time.I guess this war will not end ever :|
BTW Russian friends, dont start with terrorists etc. coz Im talking about XIX century too(Shamil uprising etc.) ;)

[Seoulstriker]

What I know about the conflict is that the ethnic Chechnyans wanted independence from Russia, so they started a civil war. Things got muddled and muslim terrorists started moving in and declared the final degree of jihad there.

I suggest checking here first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

[American Patriot]

Chechnya wanted to declare freedom and Russia would have none of it. Then a bunch of apartment buildings in Moscow blew up and Putin pledged to kill all of them Hitler-style.

[ariweiner]

Several hundred years ago: Russian imperialists try to conquer Chechnya. The Chechens converted to Islam and have continued fighting every effort of the Russians to conquer their country. In the mid 20th century, the entire Chechen population was deported by Stalin to forced labor camps in Siberia. In 1994 Chechnya declares independence from Russia. Russia invades, gets whacked over the head and retreats in a hurry. In 1999, Russia stages bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow(this has been PROVEN to be the work of Russian FSB agents. FSB agents have been caught in the act of planting explosives in other apartment buildings) The Russians use this as an excuse for their 2nd Chechen invasion. The Chechen Armed forces is led by Aslan Maskhadov. One of the General is Shamil Basayev(former Soviet officer) who went vigilante and is planning operations with his own unit, the Riyadh-us-Saleheen(Gardens of the righteous). Commander in chief Maskhadov is also a former artillery officer. The war continues with hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by Russia's state terrorism and there are tens of thousands of disappearances where Russian soldiers and their puppets kidnap ordinary civilians and ransom them back to their families.

The basic conflict is that the Russians view the Chechens as inferior to their own and they consider the Chechens to be barbarians. Even in Moscow, Chechens are attacked on a regular basis and are discriminated against.

Chechnya will be free...

[ariweiner]

Here's another look if I was too biased:

CHECHNYA: HISTORY AS NIGHTMARE
Chechnya during the Tsarist Period

Russia’s systematic attempt to subdue and occupy the North Caucasus region dates from the late 18th century. The conflict between Russia and Chechnya has a long history. Russian imperialism in the Caucasus lasted for several centuries and met its most determined and well-organized resistance on the territory of Chechnya. The first real conflict between the Russians and Chechens began during the reign of Peter the Great who at the same time declared himself as heir and crown-prince of Georgian Kingdom. Russia’s imperialistic policy in Caucasus had thus started. The official Russian troops encountered the Chechens for the first time in the summer 1722 while attempting to conquer the village of Ender. Since that time the history of Chechnya became the worst nightmare imagined. The military campaign began in 1783. Sheik Mansur, a Chechen, led the resistance from 1785 until his capture in 1791. But resistance to Russian occupation didn’t end. From 1824 until 1859 Imam Shamil, a legendary leader of the Chechen resistance, led the Muslim peoples of the North Caucasus in a long, bloody war against the Russian invaders. The Russians won by sheer force of numbers, and by carrying out a policy of relentless and destructive war from fortress towns such as Grozny, which was founded in 1818 by the Russian General, Alexander Yermolov.

Beginning in 1859, many Chechens were deported to or sought haven in the Ottoman Empire. A Chechen Diaspora exists to this day in Turkey, Jordan, and other successor states of the Ottoman Empire. Even after Shamil’s surrender, the Caucasian War continued on a reduced scale until 1864. And there continued to be outbreaks of armed resistance to Russian imperial rule in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Chechnya during the Soviet Period

In May 1918, seizing the opportunity offered by the Russian revolution, the peoples of Dagestan and the North Caucasus formed a North Caucasian Republic and declared their independence. For the next three years, as civil war raged in the former Russian Empire, a fierce struggle was waged for control of the Caucasus. General Denikin, the leader of the anti- Bolshevik Volunteer Army attacked and defeated the forces of the North Caucasian Republic, but in the fall of 1919 Sheikh Uzun Haji organized a North Caucasian Emirate in the mountains of Chechnya and led the anti- Denikin resistance. Denikin was forced to withdraw. The Bolsheviks, who earlier cooperated with Sheikh Uzun Haji, installed a regime of military occupation. This led to a new outbreak of fighting in August 1920.

In January 1921 in Vladikavkaz, a Congress of Mountaineers was convened, and, with the personal participation of Joseph Stalin, the Soviet brutal dictator, a Soviet Socialist Autonomous Mountain Republic (including the Chechens, Ingush, Ossetins, Kabardians, Balkars, and Karachai) was established. The Republic’s constituent assembly accepted Soviet sovereignty in return for recognition of the Shariat (Muslim written law which regulated the civil, social, and family life of all believers) and Adat (Muslim customary law which varies from people to people) as the basic law of the republic, full autonomy of the Republic in domestic affairs, and the transfer to the Republic of territory which had been taken from Mountain peoples by the Tsars.

In November 1922, Chechnya was detached from the Mountain Republic and given the status of an Autonomous Oblast of the Russian federation, one step in the progressive erosion of Bolshevik pledges to respect the mountain peoples’ autonomy. The collectivization campaign of 1929 sparked a new cycle of rebellion and repression. In 1934, the Chechen and Ingush Autonomous Oblasts were merged, and in December 1936, prior to the adoption of a new soviet Constitution, their status was elevated to a Chechen Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (ASSR). However, the purges of 1936-38 led to the execution and imprisonment of thousands of Chechens and the stiffening of anti-Soviet sentiment.

In January 1940, Hassan Izrailov assumed the leadership of the Chechen anti-Soviet guerrillas, declaring in a letter to the Soviet leaders: «For twenty years now, the Soviet authorities have been fighting my people, aiming to destroy them group by group: first the kulaks, then the mullahs and the «bandits», then the bourgeois-nationalists. I am sure now that their real object is the annihilation of our nation as a whole." When writing these words, the Chechen leader could not even imagine what would be happening to his nation after 50 years. Chechen leaders were executed or deported in 1929 and 1939. In 1937-1939 all Chechen intelligentsia and almost all local authorities were exterminated. And finally in February 1944 the whole population (about 400,000) was deported to the cold Siberia and desert of Kazakhstan. 700 people were burnt alive in Khaibakh aul. All the population including young children was sent into exile in cattle cars; those who were too old or sick and couldn’t move were killed right away. At that time the Chechens were expelled not only from their republic but also from neighboring Dagestan. Chechens were falsely accused in cooperating with the Nazi Germany, and more than 50% of the Chechens were liquidated in the exile. In fact, Chechens never cooperated with Hitler. Chechnya was never invaded by Hitler’s forces except one little Ingush town of Malgobeck. Moreover 17,000 Chechens perished in the Red Army fighting against Hitler’s destructible forces. The Soviet authorities used the name of Hitler to justify their reason for «getting rid» of Chechens.

To at least partially fill the gap, Chechen author and historian Mussa Geshaev wrote the book «Prominent Chechens», which was published in the Russian language in Belgium in 1999. In the book, the author recalls the February 1944 deportation of the Chechen population, which he himself experienced as a child. At that time, Geshaev writes, for three days books burned in the center of Grozny as if history itself was to be destroyed. All libraries and museums were reduced to rubble and ashes by Stalin’s subordinates. For a while there was neither Chechnya nor Ingushetia any more. Only in 1957, Soviet leader Nikita Khruschev restored the Chechen- Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist republic by allowing the survived Chechens to return.

Chechnya in the Post Communist Period

Russia’s desire to annihilate Chechens didn’t reduce even in the Post Communist Russia. On the contrary, that desire grew bigger and more inhuman. On October 27, 1990, after the collapse of the USSR, a national congress of the Chechens declared the independence of the Chechen-Ingush Republic, and on October 1991 conducted democratic national elections, monitored by the OSCE and other international organizations, and elected General Johar Dudaev with an 85% majority vote as the first president of the Chechen-Ingush republic. In 1992, the Ingush peacefully seceded, and the name of the republic was later changed to the «Chechen Republic of Ichkeria».

On December 11, 1994 the newly formed federal Republic of Russia (to which Chechnya refused to join) invaded Chechnya with an overwhelming military force under the pretense of restoring constitutional order in Chechnya. This invasion razed Grozny to the ground. The result of the invasion was the complete destruction of the infrastructure of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, and the loss of over one hundred thousands lives of Chechnya’s civilian population. In spite of the massive human and material losses suffered by the Chechen people, The Russian army faced a humiliating defeat by the partisans and subsequently by the Khasav-Yurt accords in August 1996 left Chechnya. On January 27, 1997 democratic elections, monitored by international organizations, were held and Aslan Maskhadov was elected the president of Chechnya.

If the Chechens didn’t suffer enough loss in life and property in the war of 1994-1996, The Russian Authorities corrected their «mistake» by invading already destroyed Chechnya again. A massive Russian military force entered Chechnya on September 30, 1999, supported by air and artillery. Russian officials claimed the «anti-terrorist operation» responded to an incursion by Chechen militias into the neighboring Russian republic of Dagestan and to apartment bombings in several Russian cities which were blamed on Chechens. But no proof has been presented by the Russian authorities that Chechens conducted the explosions. Today many people in Russia and elsewhere suspect the Russian intelligence service FSB to be the culprit of those explosions. The Chechen people were again accused and punished for things they have nothing to do with.

The current conflict in Chechnya can hardly be defined as an «anti- terrorist operation», neither it can be called a war because the methods used by the remorseless Russian forces belong to a completely different reality. The war against civilians that the Russian army is engaged in is a pure genocide. The Chechen civilians are plagued by abuses committed by Russian forces — arbitrary arrest and detention, extortion, looting of houses, torture, and murder. The campaign by the Russian military and police against Chechnya’s separatists has degenerated into a full scale dirty war, complete with forced «disappearances», mass graves, systematic torture, summary and extrajudicial execution of civilians.

The end of large-scale fighting has not meant security for civilians in Chechnya. Hundreds of thousands of Chechens who fled heir homes for refugee camps in Ingushetia and elsewhere in the region remain displaced with no means for survival. But even though conditions in those camps are very poor, the situation is worse where they came from. Those few, who do remain in Chechnya, especially men between the ages of 15 and 50, face the continuing threat of theft, beatings, arrest, and brutal murder by Russian soldiers during so-called «zachistki» operations. In fact, civilian «disappearances» and suffering continue in Chechnya to this day with no sign of peace or slight improvement of the genocidal situation.

For more than three centuries, Chechnya is suffering from continuous Russian military campaigns and severe genocides. Chechen towns were completely destroyed and erased from the surface of the land a countless number of times. Chechens themselves were exposed to annihilation several times. The essence of Russia’s policy in Chechnya is expressed by General Yermolov, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian forces in the Caucasus from 1816 to 1827. He was very well known for his bloody and evil deeds against the Chechen nation: «I will never rest until one Chechen is left alive». This phrase has been stamped on a bronze monument to Yermolov erected in 1949 in Grozny, when the Chechen people had been in deportation for 5 years. And under this same phrase the current Russian president Vladimir Putin operates.

Chechens have endured and continue to endure one of the worst crimes in the history of mankind. But they have never lost their dignity, neither they violated at any point of time the words «Never will we appear submissive before anyone…" These wonderful words come from their National Anthem. And this brilliant phrase will continue to be the driving force of every single Chechen living on the earth. And exactly these words must serve as an example for everyone. The only thing that is left to say is that this is an unimaginable nightmare of a very brave and courageous nation!
Kristina Sarkisyan, USA

[SwissGrenadier]

chechnya has an enormous amount of oil...

which makes it vital for russia's economy + chechnya has pledged allegiance to russia forever + the terrorists

afaik these are the reasons for the war in chechnya.if anything i wrote was wrong or inaccurate feel free to correct it :)

[Marmot1]

waiting for permski reaction.... something like "fuk you......, fuk.......... fuk.........fuk,fuk......." or at last this is what I always understand from his posts ;)


As for me russia needed quick and succesful war before elections so they started this **** then again putin was apointed and he needed also quick war... unfortunaltelly war claimed more russian lives than afghanistan and enormous number of chechens...

BTW do you remeber that russian video with captured rebels from 1999??? this one where they were loaded into trains... they were granted "amnesty" and that was a good exaple of how russian amnesty looks like, when they give up their weapons they dissapered, all 70 , fate of them since 1999 unknown... (3 of them survived since they escaped from prison...)

[Roger Rabbit]

Shrek the best person to ask would be 16 OBr SpN. His posts are always excellent and make very interesting reading.

[citizen-k]

It's a pattern - every where in the world there is a small Islamic group who claims the west is trying to take over the world (their land) - so they "fight for freedom"... I wonder if by the time 90% of the land will be "Islamic" and the other 10% will be fighting for freedom, will the U.N. will still encourage them :roll:
(encourage as: help them move explosives using their vehicles, help them kidnap western soldiors, condemn every killing of "Islamic freedom fighters" while feeling "uncomfortable" for evey 2 years old girl being shot in the head from close range from the same "freedom fighter")

Same ****, different continent / country / religion :cantbeli:

[Russian Texan]

After reading all of the comments above - :cantbeli: :roll:

Just ask 16 OBrSpN, he is the only adult here...

BTW someone mentioned Russia's "expansion" and "conquering" of Chechnya cople hundred years ago. Do you know why it happened?
I do.
Russia intruded into North Caucasus to pacify highlanders. You see, Russian towns neighboring that region were constantly attacked by Chechens who would steal cattle, take people into slavery, kidnap, loot, kill, rob, etc.
So after numerous complaints by local governors the tzar decided to solve the problem - ordered military in to restore the order, similar to what have happened in 1994.
Chechens mentality haven't changed much from hundred years ago: a real men is a warrior and it is shameful for him to work, in simple terms - working is for women and losers.
It is very interesting to read stories from hundred years ago and find so many similarities with the present day situation.

In the end Russia will never let Chechnya go for the same reason why no sane person will ever let mad dog of the chain - it will attack him.

Ariwiner, you wrote "Even in Moscow, Chechens are attacked on a regular basis and are discriminated against."
Dumb ass, have you ever been to Moscow?
Moscow is owned by Chechens! You can feed your hatefull BS to naive American and European suburban kids, but it is not going to fly with me or any other Russian...

Chechens are tired of war, they want a peaceful life, they want their kids to go to schools, recieve medical treatment in hospitals, get their pensions paid, and now they realise that "islamic state" and "laws of shariate" can not provide all of the mentioned above.

[mack pl]

citizen-k They are fighting since XIX century, i guess they werent islamic terrorists 100 years ago ;)

btw Im not terrorists lover, so dont banish me,ok :|

regards:)

[Denat]

BTW do you remeber that russian video with captured rebels from 1999??? this one where they were loaded into trains... they were granted "amnesty" and that was a good exaple of how russian amnesty looks like, when they give up their weapons they dissapered, all 70 , fate of them since 1999 unknown... (3 of them survived since they escaped from prison...)
A pamiętasz to video z ruskim jeńcem któremu ujebali na żywca łeb? Każda rzecz ma swój koniec, a kij ma nawet dwa końce ;)

[mack pl]

BTW do you remeber that russian video with captured rebels from 1999??? this one where they were loaded into trains... they were granted "amnesty" and that was a good exaple of how russian amnesty looks like, when they give up their weapons they dissapered, all 70 , fate of them since 1999 unknown... (3 of them survived since they escaped from prison...)
A pamiętasz to video z ruskim jeńcem któremu ujebali na żywca łeb? Każda rzecz ma swój koniec, a kij ma nawet dwa końce ;)

kurwa, takich filmów to jest pewnie na pęczki,a poza tym na wojnie wszyscy mają brudne łapki ;)

[anonymous individual]

Ariwiner is not the best guy with the right information. Ask 16 OBr SpN. He is the best guy in here who knows it. He has been through the Soviet and Afghan war and the first chechen war, and acted as an advicer in the second one, if I am correct.

[American Patriot]

It's very easy to blame the war on Islam but I'm sure Russia is at least 50% responsible.

[Seoulstriker]

kurwa, takich filmów to jest pewnie na pęczki,a poza tym na wojnie wszyscy mają brudne łapki ;)

:lol: Dzienkuje, ty dziwka. ;)

[Denat]

BTW do you remeber that russian video with captured rebels from 1999??? this one where they were loaded into trains... they were granted "amnesty" and that was a good exaple of how russian amnesty looks like, when they give up their weapons they dissapered, all 70 , fate of them since 1999 unknown... (3 of them survived since they escaped from prison...)
A pamiętasz to video z ruskim jeńcem któremu ujebali na żywca łeb? Każda rzecz ma swój koniec, a kij ma nawet dwa końce ;)

kurwa, takich filmów to jest pewnie na pęczki,a poza tym na wojnie wszyscy mają brudne łapki ;)
Ta, nie ma to jak dobre słowo i grozba . . . ujebania łba na żywca ;)
Ale założę się, że brzydziłbyś się to zrobić własnymi łapkami.

[CRAZY MERC]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

[CRAZY MERC]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

[CRAZY MERC]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

[Javehn]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

If you write the same thing 3 times , it will not make it correct :roll: ;) . You are still wrong .

[bloddyaxe]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but Chechen forces invaded Dagestan before the second Russian invasion of Chechnya in 1999.
The Russians defeated these forces and continued to invade Chechnya to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Without doubt, if that invasion of Dagestan hadn't happened, Chechnya would still have its semi-indipendence.
This would prove that the Chechens aren't intelligent enough to govern themselves and good for them to be under the "iron-fist" of the Russian Federation.

[mack pl]

BTW do you remeber that russian video with captured rebels from 1999??? this one where they were loaded into trains... they were granted "amnesty" and that was a good exaple of how russian amnesty looks like, when they give up their weapons they dissapered, all 70 , fate of them since 1999 unknown... (3 of them survived since they escaped from prison...)
A pamiętasz to video z ruskim jeńcem któremu ujebali na żywca łeb? Każda rzecz ma swój koniec, a kij ma nawet dwa końce ;)

kurwa, takich filmów to jest pewnie na pęczki,a poza tym na wojnie wszyscy mają brudne łapki ;)
Ta, nie ma to jak dobre słowo i grozba . . . ujebania łba na żywca ;)
Ale założę się, że brzydziłbyś się to zrobić własnymi łapkami.

nie jestem mordercą, gdybym był żołnierzem to mógłbym walczyć, ale ujebać komuś główe nożem, sorry, ale nie ;)

@Seoulstriker-You are the biggest DZIWKA on this forum rofl

[Denat]

kurwa, takich filmów to jest pewnie na pęczki,a poza tym na wojnie wszyscy mają brudne łapki ;)

:lol: Dzienkuje, ty dziwka. ;)

Seoul,
you're improving your polish everyday :P

Ja bardzo lubiec twoja zjebana polszczyzna, ty byc troche jebniety, ale wogóle byc wesoła pojeba.
Ty miec pewnie dlatego małpa na twoja avatar ze ty byc niedojebana dziwka.
rofl rofl rofl

[Denat]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

Jeez CM, you have the power of expression ;)
The same message being send 3 times - even the lie would become trouth with your help :P

[mack pl]

Denat-Seoulsiker jest troche jebniety ale w sumie wporzo ;) A jego polszczyzna jest taka jak moja angielszczyzna :lol:

[Russian Texan]

It's very easy to blame the war on Islam but I'm sure Russia is at least 50% responsible.

What makes you think that Russians are blaming this on Islam?
Do you even know what pecentage of Russian population are muslims?

Of course there are plenty of people who think that US is responsible for 9/11 and Americans have no one to blame but themselves...

American Patriot, please try to think before you type, I know it is hard for you but still... And it is not just about this post, it is regarding your "brainfarts" all over the forum.

I am not sure about you being an "American patriot", I'd say you are more like an "American asshole".
Ok, I live here, but there are other people on this forum from all over the world who have never been to the US and form their opinons of this country and it's people based on what Americans say here.
And you see, people tend to generalize and might think that all of the Americans are as dumb as you are, so if you are a true "patriot" of your country, please, do not do US of A any disservice by sticking your zit face into things that you have no clue about or understanding of. That would include just about anything except discussions of the current "cartoon channel" programming and prices on "Ignorant 're us" magazine.
Thank You.

[Denat]

Denat-Seoulsiker jest troche jebniety ale w sumie wporzo ;) A jego polszczyzna jest taka jak moja angielszczyzna :lol:
Pewnie nieżle typ ma zryty beret :D

BTW Który rok historii studiujesz? Jak tam sesja?

[mack pl]

Denat-Seoulsiker jest troche jebniety ale w sumie wporzo ;) A jego polszczyzna jest taka jak moja angielszczyzna :lol:
Pewnie nieżle typ ma zryty beret :D

BTW Który rok historii studiujesz? Jak tam sesja?

4 rok, sesja za dwa tygodnie dopiero.Użyj PM , bo nas Mod opierdoli ;)

btw Seo- jest po prostu "oryginalny" :lol:

[SwissGrenadier]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

i dunno. all i know is that analysts who monitor chechnya say that if the chechens manage to get fully independent, the russian economy could well break down.and i saw it on 3 different occasions, once it was on bbc, once on france 2 and once on cnn. but in the end what do i know, i've never been to chechnya nor russia :)

[bloddyaxe]

i dunno. all i know is that analysts who monitor chechnya say that if the chechens manage to get fully independent, the russian economy could well break down.and i saw it on 3 different occasions, once it was on bbc, once on france 2 and once on cnn. but in the end what do i know, i've never been to chechnya nor russia

That person has to be quite insane. Would the Swiss economy break down if some cottage in Swiss would claim independence and the hermit living there slaugtered the Swiss army?

[American Patriot]

Tell me, douchebag, is it really called fighting terror when your glorious Red Army kills 30,000 Chechens and displaces hundreds of thousands under a specious causus belli or are you just creating more terrorists?

[Russian Texan]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

i dunno. all i know is that analysts who monitor chechnya say that if the chechens manage to get fully independent, the russian economy could well break down.and i saw it on 3 different occasions, once it was on bbc, once on france 2 and once on cnn. but in the end what do i know, i've never been to chechnya nor russia :)

So why it didn't break down yet?
Your "analysts" are wrong, to say at least. For more than 10 years Chechnya didn't contribute anything to the Russian budget, only taken from it.

[SwissGrenadier]

nope since our economy doesn't depend on cottage. ;) doesn't the russian economy depend on oil?

[Russian Texan]

Tell me, douchebag, is it really called fighting terror when your glorious Red Army kills 30,000 Chechens and displaces hundreds of thousands under a specious causus belli or are you just creating more terrorists?

Is it really called fighting terror when your glorious American Army kills tens of thousands innocent Iraqis and displaces thousands more under a specious causus belli or you are just creating more terorists...
You see how easy it is.

BTW, do you even know what "Causus Belli" means? :)

Don't bother to reply, my mama told me not to argue with dumb people, she says it makes me look stupid.

[American Patriot]

Russian economy depends too much on oil.

Their economy doesn't compare to Western countries. A third of Russians live in poverty. That is what created the Chechen organized crime.

[mack pl]

Flame War- Nihil Novi :|

[SwissGrenadier]

russian texan, if i offended you, i apologize because it wasn't my aim

maybe these analysts (they aren't mine) are wrong, i dunno, all i'm saying is what i heard on three different tv channels on 3 different occasions by 3 different people

[American Patriot]

Tell me, douchebag, is it really called fighting terror when your glorious Red Army kills 30,000 Chechens and displaces hundreds of thousands under a specious causus belli or are you just creating more terrorists?

Is it really called fighting terror when your glorious American Army kills tens of thousands innocent Iraqis and displaces thousands more under a specious causus belli or you are just creating more terorists...
You see how easy it is.

BTW, do you even know what "Causus Belli" means? :)

Don't bother to reply, my mama told me not to argue with dumb people, she says it makes me look stupid.

Looks worse for your country when 30,000 is ~25% percent of the whole Chechen population.

[He219]

Would the Swiss economy break down if some cottage in Swiss would claim independence and the hermit living there slaugtered the Swiss army?
Dont' be silly! Don't you know that the Swiss economy is based on KooKoo Clocks and not Oil resources?
;)

[SwissGrenadier]

Would the Swiss economy break down if some cottage in Swiss would claim independence and the hermit living there slaugtered the Swiss army?
Dont' be silly! Don't you know that the Swiss economy is based on KooKoo Clocks and not Oil resources?
;)

no it's based on skis chocolate cheese and watches :lol:
grüsse nach newport beach ;)

[Denat]

Flame War- Nihil Novi :|
sub sole :)

[Russian Texan]

russian texan, if i offended you, i apologize because it wasn't my aim

maybe these analysts (they aren't mine) are wrong, i dunno, all i'm saying is what i heard on three different tv channels on 3 different occasions by 3 different people

Don't worry, nothing to appologize for, you haven't offended me in anyway. That what internet is for - to be able to learn and hear from people who have a different view on a situation.

[bloddyaxe]

So if the Gúgú klokks, chocolate-cheese and watches would declare independence Swiss would become an economic mess?

But still if Russia depends on oil, would a few litres of oil make any difference since Russia owns Siberia which contains a few more billion skrillion litres or something like that.

[Russian Texan]

Looks worse for your country when 30,000 is ~25% percent of the whole Chechen population.

I never had any illusions about your intelectual abilities, but now you have also demonstrated lack of internet use skills.

So entire Chechen population is 120.000? :cantbeli:

Use the "Google"...

[SwissGrenadier]

alright then woot

the last thing i want to start is a flame war by offending or insultign other people.why? cuz it's totally counterproductive on an internet forum.

Regards :D

[American Patriot]

Chechnya has small reserves of oil, but the oil is of high quality.

[SwissGrenadier]

bloodyaxe in your opinion what does the russian economy depend on?
do they exports loads of cars like the germans do?
do they have a ****load of banks like switzerland and luxemburg do?

russia has a lot of well educated people: engineers, scientists and the best mathematicians.but what russia,as a country, lacks is organisation, a free market.therefore the russians depend on oil.not solely on oil, but they do.

but to answer your question yes the cheese makers etc could shut down their plants we still have our banks :)

[Russian Texan]

Russian economy does depend on oil, not entirely, but high oil prices is what makes Russian economy grow faster than expected.

Is oil important for the Russian economy - yes.
Is Chechen oil imperative for the Russian economy - :lol: :lol: :lol: , NO!

[American Patriot]

Whatever. Right now Russia controls Chechen oil and almost all of it is going to Russian oil companies instead of being used to rebuild Chechnya.

[RavenW]

I try to explain the conflict as I understand it.

Lets divide it by periods... Lets be systematic.

Sorry for mistakes, I don't have time to proof read it. I will edit it later.

"Chechnya and Russia" (The Conflict)

1. XIX century up to 1917.

Two views of the conflict:

On one hand Russian empire was systematically attacked by Chechen bandits along its borders with North Caucasus Mountains. As a response , Russian Tsar orders Russian army to restore order and pacify Caucasus.

Second view, Russian Tsar wanted to expand his empire and colonize backward and primitive societies that lived high in the mountains.

But who can dare to blame him for this? British did horrible things in their colonies like in India and Afghanistan at that time. Same imperialist ambition was driving USA. With its colonization of America and moving to the West. XIX century American ambitions are not pretty when it comes to primitive native societies.

Chechen resistance was crashed by traditional brutal ways of American and British people. No offence to some ignorant pseudo-patriots.

(I don't blame Americans, Britons or Russians for wanting to expand their empires, people pursued their own national interest at that time, that’s how world lived for centuries).

Always think in retrospective to other nations at that time of history.

2. 1917 to 1941.

Long overdue revolution arrives in Russia and minority groups gain independence and more rights (it would take Americans, for example, another 40 years to outlaw Jim Crow laws and establish civil rights for minorities). Again there is no one to blame, **** happens. But we got Martin Luther King Jr. finally, thank G-d!

Minorities who tend to be left-wing established socialist republics and joined Soviet Union.

3. 1941-1945

In 1941 when Nazi Germany invaded USSR, Chechen actively participate in the attacks against Soviet rule. Chechen fighters join SS and commit numerous atrocities, but there were some Chechens who helped Jews to hide from advancing Nazis that approached Grozny. (Read memoirs of Alexander Galich)

As a response Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin (who was from Caucasus region himself) decided to brutally suppress any rebellion and collaborators with Nazis by his own methods. Collective punishment. Thus, NKVD troops began systematically uproot Chechen population and forcefully send them to Siberia.

Stalin did not care about Russian people either. So why would he show mercy to some small nation? He was a pig, anyway.

4. 1945-1985

After deaths of Stalin, Khrushchev allows Chechens to return to their own region. They dug up their dead and moved them in regular passenger train wagons to Chechnya.
Imagine the faces of regular train passengers as they looked at those dead bodies riding with them on regular train.

Soviet society lives under totalitarian rules of "internationalism".
Parades, parades, parades...

Chechen are pacified and show no resistance, but they don't have weapons anyway. Also majority of Central Asian Republics have some sort of mixture of feudalism and communism where local communist (like "ba'ath") authority have absolute power. So is in Chechnya and in other places.

5. 1985 - 1994

During Gorbachev rule, USSR began to disintegrate and national conflicts swept border regions.

In 1991 Soviet Union seized to exist.
Local pro-Nazi and extreme nationalistic elements emerge in some former republics of USSR. Numerous atrocities were committed against Russian civilian population that lived in those republics.

Russian civilians were forced from their homes and fled as refugees.

6. 1994-1996

Chechnya gains autonomy from Russia. And Yeltsin allows self-rule in Chechnya.
Former Soviet general Dudaev becomes Chechnya's leader. And organized crime as well as narco-bussiness become "Soup of the Day".

Chechens began actively establish black markets for weapons and oil racketeering in republic. Chechnya becomes one big "crime syndicate" - a banana republic ruled by Mafioso.

People start to disappear and Chechen militias began to pogrom local Russian civilian population. Chechen "fighters" make raid against Russian civilian centers near Chechen border, taking hostages in civilian hospitals like pregnant women's quarters, and kid's hospital department etc.


Chechen make strong connection with Russian mafia. Money laundrey apears on horizon as Chechen and Russian mafia wants to clean their money through Chechen campaign.

7. 1996-2000

Yeltsin orders army to enter Chechnya and restore order. Russia ultimately fails in its attempt to restore order. Heavy civilian casualties happen and both Russian and Chechen civilians become refugees of war. Both sides commit atrocities and torture prisoners etc.

Russia makes a ceasefire with Chechen rebels.

9. 2000 - present

Unsatisfied with position of his former boss, Putin takes job and as old KGB boy begin to clean up the house in Chechnya. His goal - centralized powerful state that existed before Gorbachev took power. Ultimately, Putin wants power for himself and wants to restore "order" as it was in 1970s.

The response from gangs of Chechen "fighters" is devastating. Two Moscow apartment buildings attacked by jihadists in the name of Allah and Chechen independence in holy war against infidels proclaimed.

After numerous civilian loses that Russia suffers in the heart of Moscow, Russia begins the second campaign, but now Putin uses old Soviet method "divide [share] and rule". He gives some piece of the pie to Chechen militias and some of them join forces with Moscow. Chechens fight against Chechens.



Now, to the question whether Chechens are terrorists...
Yes, they are.
I already talk about my definition of what is a terrorist in the topic about Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

Terrorism - a deliberate/intentional act of violence, where civilian non-combatants are the main targets of the attack.]

The tactics that Chechens are using called terrorism and thus they cannot be called guerrilla or partisan fighters. Those who make innocent civllians their main and primary target of deliberate assault can and should be called terrorists. And once a terrorist always a terrorist!

Among other things Chechens do are: denial of Holocaust during WWII, open support to Nazi Germany and Hitler, solidarity with Palestinian "cause", solidarity and full cooperation with Al-Qaeda and other Arab "fighters", international Jihad against infidels and Jews.

You got the picture.

The tactics on other hand they are using include: hostage taking (civilian) for political as well as for ransom (just plain old robbery), targeting civilian centers as apartment buildings, metro stations, civilian passenger trains (like in Spain), car bombs and videotaping executions of civilians (like cutting their heads in the name of jihad0..


Conclusion:
Chechen terrorist scum falls in the same category as Pushtu, Palestinian or any other Muslim scum. And therefore, we must help our good Muslim brothers who are taken hostages by perverts (who stole their religion and turned it into the tool of evil) to restore true good Islam and liberate Chechnya from evil Chechen mob rule.

THe islamo-fascism must be defeated wherever it exists, so the TRUE Muslim peaceful religion would be restored after the liberation of Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Philippines, Indonesia, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Kashmir, Lebanon and the land of Israel from the hordes of Islamo-fascists.

Shalom!


-----------
Fight the bias! Make a difference! :D

[RavenW]

If you got particular questions like "what Chechens did to Russian civilians during XIX century?" or "what Russians did to Chechen civilians in 1944?" or "what Chechens did to Russian civilians in 1994?" I'lll be happy to answer...

Both sides have their share of rights and wrongs. But again I believe that Chechen side is ultimately MORE wrong since it uses tactics of terrorism which is one of the most despicable things on our planet.

[CPL Trevoga]

Tell me, douchebag, is it really called fighting terror when your glorious Red Army kills 30,000 Chechens and displaces hundreds of thousands under a specious causus belli or are you just creating more terrorists?

Look, we got a bleeding heart liberal here. Maybe you cried when you saw pictures of Abu-Whatever prison abuse too. Chechen supported Nazis, that's why some got killed. Wipe the snot of your face, son. Why don't you watch Berg's beheading, which Chechens love to do, and then cry about plight of poor Chechens.

PS Patriot, why don't you join Army or something. Words are cheap.

[Midav]

Chechnya belongs to Russia, from all I can tell and have read.

There were raids and the czar took care of that real quick. Sure, Russia was also expansionist, but who wasn't?

If that's making an excuse, oh well. After WW II, the family side of my German opa (grandfather), lost a house and lot's of land, due to East Prussia being incorporated into the Soviet Union.

It's a shame and heard lot's about it, but that's war. Survival of the fittest.

Gotta look at it realistically.

Much like how I also believe Kosovo belongs to Serbia. Too bad we helped the Albanians there....

Sorry, going off topic...

[SwissGrenadier]

Midav, is your opa Prussian???

Mine is, he grew up in Königsberg, nowadays called Kaliningrad.

[Midav]

My opa wasn't born there.

He was born in in Sonnenberg (think that's the name). That's in Thueringen.

Long story :)

[He219]

It's good to see more Junkers in the forums!

:D

[SwissGrenadier]

My opa wasn't born there.

He was born in in Sonnenberg (think that's the name). That's in Thueringen.

Long story :)

yeah i believe it is!

haha 2 american and 1 swiss member are (part) prussian cool :D


schöne grüsse nach neu mexiko und kalifornien :) ich geh schlafen.adios

[shrek]

Ok, i've been gone all day and came back to 58 replies. Wheewww, I didn't mean to start a war. I will read all pertinent comments! Thanks ever so much for all the comments!!!

[Midav]

My opa wasn't born there.

He was born in in Sonnenberg (think that's the name). That's in Thueringen.

Long story :)

yeah i believe it is!

haha 2 american and 1 swiss member are (part) prussian cool :D


schöne grüsse nach neu mexiko und kalifornien :) ich geh schlafen.adios

Schoene Nacht =)

Ich Trink noch ein paar Bier, danach ins Bett... muss bald wieder zur Arbeit lol

[Midav]

It's good to see more Junkers in the forums!

:D

Didn't see that lol
Don't know how to take that (in a positive way ;)), but my opa flew Junkers JU-88's during WW II heh
Was stationed in Greece.

My great uncle (my opa's brother) was in the Africa Korps.
He was killed at El Alamein. My mother inherited a lot of things after opa died and one such document was a notice of death that my uncle was killed, which was sent to the family.
It's on very fine paper and looks like a telegraph.

I'll ask her if it's ok that I make a scan of it some time.

[OB Kenobi]

To SwissGrenadier:
Chechnya does not have any economic oil reserves. Not enough to start a war anyway...

i dunno. all i know is that analysts who monitor chechnya say that if the chechens manage to get fully independent, the russian economy could well break down.and i saw it on 3 different occasions, once it was on bbc, once on france 2 and once on cnn. but in the end what do i know, i've never been to chechnya nor russia :)

There isn't that much oil in Chechnya itself, but Chechnya borders some key routes to Russia, and is the most direct path to the Caucasus. Russia lost control of Chechen oil since the first war, there was no attempt to take it back. Then the Chechens saw the success of their fellow Islamic terrorists in Yugoslavia and decided to try the same thing in Dagestan and Ingushetia, as well as those bombings. That is when Russia attacked, not for oil.

I find it strange that certain people can't seem to comprehend that the Chechen terrorists (I mean the terrorists, not all Chechens), with outside assistance, launched a military campaign against neighboring Russian states. How this equates with "fighting for freedom for Chechnya" I don't know.

[786mine]

Ok, I am an college educated 30 something year old man that doesn’t understand one damn bit about what’s going on, has gone on, or will continue to go on in the war in Chechnya. Can someone please explain, in nice, unbiased terms, why they’re fighting, who all is fighting and how it will ever end? I have been in the intel. business in one form or another for most of my adult life, but the European theater was not my thing, so sue me, I’m stupid about some things. You can PM me if you don’t want to start a flame or just send me a link to a good over viewing article on the subject. Thanks in advance!!

by now you should have read a lot of info. and here are my 2 cents. chechians wanted freedom from russia. mother russia said no. civil war broke out. propeganda started about "islamic terrorist" [i can't understand why people call them muslims when they don't even represent islamic values...anyways] and that **** is still going on. peace!