Macedonia delivers to Greece note of protest over MAT

[Zombie Squad]

Macedonian authorities delivered a note of protest today for banning MAT to make charter flights over Greece's air space.

The note sent to the Greek Ministry of Transport and Communication says that the Greek authorities' decision represents blatant violation of the international laws.

"The decision of the Greek Airline Administration to reject permission to the company bearing the name MAT - Macedonian Airlines, is a blatant violation of the European Union's fundamental values and has no legal basis in the international acts regulating the air traffic," says the note of protest.

It further reminds that the European Common Aviation Area Agreement allows to airliners of the EU member-countries and of Macedonia to enjoy unlimited rights in terms of operating charter and regular flights between all points in EU and in Macedonia.

http://makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=109180&NrIssue=637&NrSection=10

[kinmid]

Already an active topic in this section, so do stop posting such material in separate threads!

The international law has nothing to do with this action, but rather it has to do with the specific Interim Accord provisions the UN is backing (and the EU supports) with a UN resolution for resolving the issue with FYROM.
Besides the fact FYROM breaks that Interim Accord of 1995 ever since it signed it, even with "blatant" statements of it's officials within the UN itself, and Greece all that does so far is honouring it to the letter.
Thats what the specific action was all about.
FYROM breaking a provision of the Interim Accord regarding membership to international organizations, and naturally Greece acting in accordance to it.





HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

Already an active topic in this section, so do stop posting such material in separate threads!

The international law has nothing to do with this action, but rather it has to do with the specific Interim Accord provisions the UN is backing (and the EU supports) with a UN resolution for resolving the issue with FYROM.
Besides the fact FYROM breaks that Interim Accord of 1995 ever since it signed it, even with "blatant" statements of it's officials within the UN itself, and Greece all that does so far is honouring it to the letter.
Thats what the specific action was all about.
FYROM breaking a provision of the Interim Accord regarding membership to international organizations, and naturally Greece acting in accordance to it.





HAVE FUN !!!

you shall be better regular with rules of market and regulatory texts
The Greek action is an "over-kill" repraisal action regarding the European Common Aviation Area Agreement. The FYROM name problem has to be solved between politicians of both countries not involving companies of either country.
Doing that
1- this action has nothing to do with the name dispute and shall be regarded as a petty way of pressure
2- this is absolutely contrary to the ECAAA rules and should be brought to the European court of justice for breaching of market rules
3- could be regarded as a provocating action (in itself it is much like an embargo) .... nice way to get out the foot of the hornet nest :cantbeli:

and after that you will say that only the Fyromains are looking for trouble rofl

take a look at the text and try to understand that in front of a commercial justice court, your country will have to pay penalities... And moreover in a mediatic approach it is everything except a wise action

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:22006A1016(01):EN:HTML

Multilateral Agreement
between the European Community and its Member States, the Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bulgaria, the Republic of Croatia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the Republic of Iceland, the Republic of Montenegro, the Kingdom of Norway, Romania, the Republic of Serbia and the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo [1] on the establishment of a European Common Aviation Area
THE KINGDOM OF BELGIUM,
THE CZECH REPUBLIC,
THE KINGDOM OF DENMARK,
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA,
THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC,
THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN,.............//



Article 1
1. The aim of this Agreement is the creation of a European Common Aviation Area, hereinafter referred to as the ECAA. The ECAA shall be based on free market access, freedom of establishment, equal conditions of competition, and common rules including in the areas of safety, security, air traffic management, social and environment. For this purpose this Agreement sets out the rules applicable between the Contracting Parties under the conditions set out hereafter. These rules include the provisions laid down by the legislation specified in Annex I.



Article 6
Within the scope of this Agreement, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited

Article 13
the European Community shall associate the Associated Parties with any operational initiative in the fields of air navigation services, airspace and interoperability that stem from the Single European Sky, in particular through an early involvement of the relevant Contracting Parties' efforts to establish functional airspace blocks.

You are definitively breaching EC rules (not the first time) and you will lose at playing that
Not the smartest way to deal with that issue .......


To the mod, can you merge with the other related thread ?

[Nickchios]

NO..... we are not breaching EC rules.

According to a statement from Hellas Ministry of Foreign Affairs the Agreement must be approved from Greece and other countries also...... so we are NOT breaching the rules.

[phoebus]

NO..... we are not breaching EC rules.

According to a statement from Hellas Ministry of Foreign Affairs the Agreement must be approved from Greece and other countries also...... so we are NOT breaching the rules.

+1

Also, such issues should be kept in the same thread in my view. Especially if the titles are so much provocative.

[Afro-European]

+1

Also, such issues should be kept in the same thread in my view. Especially if the titles are so much provocative.

If i may quickly jump in:there is nothing "provocative" about the title.You guys should keep the discussion clean.

[Mordoror]

hum hum Look at the link provided above :

In WITNESS WHEREOF the undersigned plenipotentiaries, being duly authorised thereto, have signed this Agreement:
Για την Ευρωπαϊκή Κοινότητα
Official Journal L 285 , 16/10/2006 P. 0003 - 0046


and to show you that it has nothing to do with the name, here comes a paragraph concerning FYROM :

REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS
Luxembourg, 9 June 2006
Dear Sirs,
Hereby I declare that the final text from 22 May 2006 of the Multilateral ECAA Agreement is acceptable for the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.
With this letter, the Government of the Republic of Macedonia considers itself as signatory of the Multilateral Agreement between the Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bulgaria, the Republic of Croatia, the European Community and its Member States, the Republic of Iceland, the Republic of Macedonia, the Kingdom of Norway, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo on the Establishment of a European Common Aviation Area.
However, I declare that the Republic of Macedonia does not accept the denomination used for my country in the abovementioned Agreement, having in view that the constitutional name of my country is Republic of Macedonia.
Please accept, Sirs, the assurances of my highest consideration.
Xhemali MEHAZI
Minister of Transport and Communications
+++++ TIFF +++++
THE COUNCIL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION
Luxembourg, 9 June 2006
Mr. Xhemali Mehazi,
Minister of Transport and Communications
of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,
Sir,
The European Community and its Member States take note of your letter of today's date and confirms that your letter and this reply shall together take the place of the signature of the Multilateral Agreement between the Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bulgaria, the Republic of Croatia, the European Community and its Member States, the Republic of Iceland, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the Kingdom of Norway, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo on the Establishment of a European Common Aviation Area (ECAA). However, this cannot be construed as acceptance or recognition by the European Community and its Member States, in whatever form or content of a denomination other than the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
Please accept, Sir, the assurance of our highest consideration.
On behalf of the European Community and its Member States


It is a regulatory agreement and has to be seen as such
The answer is above, the name issue was correctly discarded as it had to be done in such agreement (the name issue has to be solved elsewhere, the letters from FYROM and EC are just normal diplomatic play)



so here you clearly breach rules from a regulatory point of view concerning free market access, that's simple and clear

[achilles]

so here you clearly breach rules from a regulatory point of view concerning free market access, that's simple and clear

So take us to the court and we'll see what happens.

Move on.



PS: merging this thread with the big one is a good idea IMO.

[Mordoror]

Oh if the NCO of MAT and the Ministry of Transport are smart enough it will be done

let's wait and see ............

[achilles]

Oh if the NCO of MAT and the Ministry of Transport are smart enough it will be done

let's wait and see ............

Worrying too much about this Greek attrocity is plain stupidity.

Look more into what is good for you, give up the US-induced stubborness, make concessions regarding your name and get yourselves a one-way ticket to the real world. In other words....wake up!

[Mordoror]

Ahh Achilles ....

this action was also of plain stupidity, wasn't it ??


give up the US-induced stubborness, make concessions regarding your name to that i told you from the beginning (some weeks ago) that i agree

but how can you expect some concessions when your country is still warming up the atmosphere by such unilateral actions
it will no help to cool down the situation

wake up is a good advice but shall be provided by somebody who do not try to make you feel a club on the head

all is a matter of trust from both side of the border .... here the trust goes down and you are helping to dig the trench where it will be buried by such kind of action
You give also arguments to the ultranationalists and they do not needed that

that was unecessary and provocative like the flag issue
small titillating that become painful scars one week from FYROM the other from Greece, do you see an ending to that ?.............
Personnaly i don't ...........

[achilles]

Ahh Achilles ....

this action was also of plain stupidity, wasn't it ??

to that i told you from the beginning (some weeks ago) that i agree

but how can you expect some concessions when your country is still warming up the atmosphere by such unilateral actions
it will no help to cool down the situation

wake up is a good advice but shall be provided by somebody who do not try to make you feel a club on the head

all is a matter of trust from both side of the border .... here the trust goes down and you are helping to dig the trench where it will be buried by such kind of action
You give also arguments to the ultranationalists and they do not needed that

that was unecessary and provocative like the flag issue
small titillating that become painful scars one week from FYROM the other from Greece, do you see an ending to that ?.............
Personnaly i don't ...........

I think Greece has been pretty clear regarding her "red lines" in the issue. We do not accept the term "Macedonia" - on its own - on land, sea and in the air. Period.

If you want to discuss about provocations, we can talk about your "Alexander the Great" airport, your laughable irredentist maps among many other examples of blatant provocations, sparked by your ultranationalist leaders.

Self-criticism is the key word.

[Mordoror]

If you want to discuss about provocations, we can talk about your "Alexander the Great" airport, your laughable irredentist maps among many other examples of blatant provocations, sparked by your ultranationalist leaders.

yes yes we can and it was already done for pages and pages and will be done again for pages and pages
That's why this thread should be merged with the other

Anyway :
your laughable irredentist maps Be kind not to put everybody in the same bag, it begins to be tiring to read anytime the "you" as if i was also responsible (you can note that from my side i never say "you" when dealing with those issues but either Greece or Fyrom/Macedonia)

Moreover,
Self-criticism is the key word. should be applyied in both ways. I see your red line. However you are still breaching a EU rule by now. This is in some way above the Fyrom issue and rules at 27 are done to be respected and not to be broken at will. You have accepted to enter Eu and had advantage of that, then you should accept the rules and not only when you find only benefits (in economy, fishery or Cyprus issue or whatever else)

Do not matter, i pass this thread, we will see how it will be solved ....

[Clearday-TRForce]

a typical balkan thread...it means please prepare yourself for heavy rain and take your umbrella. Everyone has got the point...and no one happy.

G.Soros, This must be your thread. Invest and Go !!!

[phoebus]

If i may quickly jump in:there is nothing "provocative" about the title.You guys should keep the discussion clean.

Thanks for expressing your personal opinion.

Making it sound as if you're restoring some sort of objective reality goes too quite a bit far. The title is indeed provocative because it's promoting something that is still debated and that is the name of that specific balkan country.

No reason to create un-necessary tensions mate.


G.Soros, This must be your thread. Invest and Go !!!

You know your stuff, and that is very good. I am positively surprised.

[Clearday-TRForce]

.....

You know your stuff, and that is very good. I am positively surprised.


But negative results...p-)

1 positive + 1 negative = 1 posnegative or we call it "PN". Best environment for speculations and the G.Soros is the name, couldn't hold myself without post.

anyway...Should we wait something valurable at this thread? or watching more who is the man and/or how God DM brothers kill theirselves at same table while white+blue+red flagger laughs at the corner !

Haha, life is a TV show. Catch the train or lost your coins. Few choose but u have to take best.

[achilles]

Anyway : Be kind not to put everybody in the same bag, it begins to be tiring to read anytime the "you" as if i was also responsible (you can note that from my side i never say "you" when dealing with those issues but either Greece or Fyrom/Macedonia)

I am not personifying "you". "You" is in plural and it includes you also since you are, in a sense, representing your mother country in an international forum.


I see your red line. However you are still breaching a EU rule by now.

Can you tell me which "EU rule" is this one exactly and in what way Greece is violating it? I am not good at legal issues and i could use a clarification.

Even if we do, i would guess that we will keep doing so until you show signs of good will. Cervenkovski does but Gruevski is an obstacle. I've been hearing lately that Gruevski disturbs even the American diplomats with his hard-line stance on the name.

[kinmid]

@Mordoror

You can rumble and repost all the agreements you wish, and pray that we end up debating them all over this thread instead, but this doesn't change the FACT that FYROM became member-part of all these agreements with it's name FYROM only because of the Interim Accord, and only based on the provisions of this Interim Accord.
So get used to a simple FACT.
Whenever & Wherever FYROM breaks or violates or ignores those specific provisions, not honouring it's signature and the Interim Accord, then in any and all agrements/treaties/organizations/whatever you guys became part cause of and due to the Interim Accord... you will face the consequences of your illegal actions in regard to it.

And since other countries in the world seek their own perceived interests towards fellow NATO members or EU members, and keep forcing similar or worst illegal measures of embargo and denial of access and recognition (i.e. Greece & Cyprus with Turkey's policy over the last 30+ years), all against the very same "international" laws and EU treaties FYROM flags, but obviously without FYROM actually giving a damn, we can and we will (Greece) act uppon our legal rights honouring our signature on the Interim Accord, and you can simply shove it (FYROM)...
Or go to the International Court of Justice (that Interim Accord provisions) and try to make your case, which based on your own actual disshonorring of the Interim Accord will naturally backfire.


@Mods

Please consider merging this topic with this one:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=131800



P.S.
@Mordoror

I forgot to thank you for posting the following:


REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS
Luxembourg, 9 June 2006
Dear Sirs,
Hereby I declare that the final text from 22 May 2006 of the Multilateral ECAA Agreement is acceptable for the Government of the Republic of Macedonia.
With this letter, the Government of the Republic of Macedonia considers itself as signatory of the Multilateral Agreement between the Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bulgaria, the Republic of Croatia, the European Community and its Member States, the Republic of Iceland, the Republic of Macedonia, the Kingdom of Norway, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo on the Establishment of a European Common Aviation Area.
However, I declare that the Republic of Macedonia does not accept the denomination used for my country in the abovementioned Agreement, having in view that the constitutional name of my country is Republic of Macedonia.
Please accept, Sirs, the assurances of my highest consideration.
Xhemali MEHAZI
Minister of Transport and Communications
+++++ TIFF +++++
THE COUNCIL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION
Luxembourg, 9 June 2006
Mr. Xhemali Mehazi,
Minister of Transport and Communications
of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,
Sir,
The European Community and its Member States take note of your letter of today's date and confirms that your letter and this reply shall together take the place of the signature of the Multilateral Agreement between the Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bulgaria, the Republic of Croatia, the European Community and its Member States, the Republic of Iceland, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the Kingdom of Norway, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo on the Establishment of a European Common Aviation Area (ECAA). However, this cannot be construed as acceptance or recognition by the European Community and its Member States, in whatever form or content of a denomination other than the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
Please accept, Sir, the assurance of our highest consideration.
On behalf of the European Community and its Member States



What do we have here exactly?
-Official violation of the Interim Accord by FYROM.
-Official bitch-slapping by the EU for the specific violation.

And naturally an official responce of Greece to this "violation of words" when it became violation of actions.

Nice work!




HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

@Achilles


I am not personifying "you". "You" is in plural and it includes you also since you are, in a sense, representing your mother country in an international forum.Fixed and no offense.....the english language is less precise than the French one and can lead to such misunderstanding from my side .... no more problems


Can you tell me which "EU rule" is this one exactly and in what way Greece is violating it? I am not good at legal issues and i could use a clarification.
you are breaching the European Common Aviation Area Agreement (ECAA) signed in 2006 by all EC members and some partners countries By imposing unilateral fly restriction without any security or technical issues you are breaching the rules of several articles (see my post N°3 o this thread) and thus breached the Agreement on a regulatory point of view.) You are doing so by restricting the acces of a private company to you airspace, restriction which is not based on anything technical or about safety and thus, at least, breach the free market, free circulation and free concurrence access
I give you the link one more time : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:22006A1016(01):EN:HTML (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:22006A1016%2801%29:EN:HTML)

Just to know how do work EU rules ..... They have the priority over national rules except if national rules are more complete from a regulatory point of view. If the Eu rules are not respected by a country, the concerned country has to pay penalities to the EC... In such way every year, your country as mine (meaning France here) as well as other pay billions of penalities for different issues like road transport, border rules, etc ......

@Kinmid


FYROM breaks or violates or ignores those specific provisions,We are here talking about a private company ..... you can circle as much you want about the Fyrom issue, from a regulatory point of view concerning the ECAA, it has nothing to do with the name issue (of course it does in your mind ....) but Greece breached market rules here based on an irrational argument and not a technical one. We are just here not talking about officials from Fyrom blocked at Greek's border because Greece ispissed of by the name issue. This kind of blockage would have been more understandable given the name issue in fact because the issue is done and deals with and by the politicians. Here we are talking about a business company.... that's simple....


(i.e. Greece & Cyprus with Turkey's policy over the last 30+ years),Turkey is not a member of Ec and has not signed such agreement
Cyprus as now a member of EC is more protected that it was before
So Turkey is paying its attitude by continuing restrictions and embargo on Cyprus ..... as Greece will do on this issue


Or go to the International Court of Justice (that Interim Accord provisions) and try to make your case, which based on your own actual disshonorring of the Interim Accord will naturally backfire.


Given the text both countries have 4 months to solve the issue. After that, yes it should be solved in the ICJ and i am really not sure Greece will win here...



What do we have here exactly?
-Official violation of the Interim Accord by FYROM.
-Official bitch-slapping by the EU for the specific violation.

What do we see here ? Normal diplomatic play, nothing more, with expected answer form the EC side. It has not gone very far and still the agreement was signed so for your bitch-slapping rofl. As i said this statement in a diplomatic language has to be understood as "here we have a regulatory agreement on market rules ..... political problems should be solved elsewhere...in meanwhile, the market rules prevail in our agreement...."

[kinmid]

@Mordoror

Such a long post of yours, and yet no actual truth on actual FACTS.
Just same plain irrelevant side-stories, besides and outside actual FACTS.

We are here talking about simple things you so desperately try to complex with irrelevancies, either on purpose or just due to plain ignorance.
Don't expect from me any "debate" based on ignoring any/all fundamental truths regarding the issue you keep trying to appear as willing to "debate" honestly.
Why?
Simply because you only present false statements based in false basis as it suits you in order to appear as relevant.

Now keep rumbling your EU agreements all you want, since it's off topic to the real agreement that actually matters, and thats the one that allowed the so called FYROM entity to become part of those agreements.
Which one is that?
It is the Interim Accord and it's provision on FYROM becoming part of EU treaties/agreements/laws (as well as any other international organization or treaty or agreement), in which Greece being already and FYROM willing to be part of.
"Business" and "regulatory agreements" within those organizations as far as FYROM is conserned are all regulated primarily based on the provisions of the Interim Accord.
Simple FACTS.

Anything else comes after, and without the previously mentioned is just irrelevant if not blatant lie from the side (yours) that keeps rumbling it.
It is similar to the other blatant lie from FYROM that claims Greece can't denny membership to NATO based on the Interim Accord, yet in fact the same Accord provisions that it's authority/stature/legality is not above and beyond the provisions/terms/laws/treaties/etc of any International treaty in which Greece is already (before the Accord) part of, therefore a dennial based on lack of accomplishing any NATO prerequisite (in our case the "good neighbouring relation" one) by FYROM is also a legal action.

If you don't understand or don't want to understand how actual business is affected by actual international agreements/treaties/laws in regard to the business working environment, then I guess this topic is already dead.
And if you ignore the fact that the Interim Accord provisions FYROM not to support any private venture that creates problems to any international environment in which FYROM becomes part by the same Accord provisions, then learn this too.

Unless of course we are to accept that FYROM should become member of any/all International organizations without Greek objection (honouring the Accord), while FYROM can both officially (statement you posted) and by officially supported private individuals/companies (such as MAT) ignore any/all provisions/obligations from it's part (disshonouring the Accord).
Seems to me you guys have a very weird sence of implementing treaties.

Other than that I already posted in my first post in here what this is all about, and your own posted material provided the actual proof on official FYROM violation of the Interim Accord in question within the specific EU environment Greece is also part of, therefore provided legal stature for Greece's legal action.
Get used to it.



HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

@Kinmid

Your so delighting posts AKA "I am the only who detain the truth and the overall understanding of any issue concerning Greece-Fyrom relationship being either history, politics, diplomacy, market, regulatory, genetics, agreements, deals, international justice, border policy, EC functioning system, ECJ laws, and so on so on" missed me .....

you wanted facts, you get facts and even these you do not want to understand them but instead you still throw mud in your posts and pretend that you are the only one that is to be trust because you detain the overall truth ?

i will quote one of your fellow :

PS: When you don't know shyt about something, always remember: speech is silver, silence is goldThe agreement you talk so much, here it is : http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004457.pdf
Look the title with your open eyes : what does it states : Greece and FYROM
neither it is written that it concerns EC and Fyrom . Here your country is breaching a EC agreement with a recognized partner, take it or leave ....


Anything else comes afterAs i said in my first answer to you : you should be better regular with EC regulatory rules ....Greek foreign policy is of course up to your government. You want to put visa for Fyromians .... it is only up to you. You want to breach a market deal signed under EC official document, it comes to Bruxelles as your market policy as for others EC country policies is not anymore at the state level ..... it is only the third time i have to repeat myself even if it seems not too difficult to understand, .....


It is similar to the other blatant lie from FYROM that claims Greece can't denny membership to NATO based on the Interim Accord,NATO as nothing to do with market rules so far for your example
The functionnal system of NATO is well known : any member can veto the entering of a new member and it was done

here we are talking about a agreement that was already signed (2006 ) by all the parties with no exceptions and that do not concern international politics but air market and dispatch regulation and europeans laws


And if you ignore the fact that the Interim Accord provisions FYROM not to support any private venture that creates problems to any international environment in which FYROM becomes part by the same Accord provisions, then learn this too.

your interim accord concern again Greece-Fyrom relationships. If you do not want to understand that Greece is also part of EC and that EC rules (concerning market rules, here i am not talking about diplomacy, EC is a market union, not a political union but you seem to do not understand that), then you are beyond recovery.

If you do not understand the terms : market rules, private companies and EC laws and confuse it with diplomatic interstate rules, state owned companies and UN Accord then, nobody can do anything for you .....


your own posted material provided the actual proof on official FYROM violation of the Interim Accord in question within the specific EU environment Greece is also part of, therefore provided legal stature for Greece's legal action.Anyway if you do not want to understand that even with that this ECAA agreement was signed by your country and it is still applicable, then what to say :

May be go do a Master in business and another in International relationship...it can provide you a little help to understand facts you are so fond of but of which you do not get the mere subtility

[kinmid]

Now on the topic of who actually acts in violation and against the laws of commerce...

-On the issue of private vs state, and the officially violated Interim Accord by FYROM in regard to MAT just bear in mind as well that:
MAT (Macedonian Airlines) may be a privately owned company but was granted the status as flag carrier by the FYROM government in 2000.

-On the issue of illegal actions towards business and private companies let's just bear in mind that:

MAT retains a veto right on the issuing of new licenses within FYROM, even though the competition authority has ruled this to be illegal.


-On the issue of FYROM respecting the law of free commerce let's also bear in mind that:
"Macedonia" has bilateral air service agreements with 15 EU member states that severely restrict competition.



-------



@Mordoror


Started the same game-tune of insults I see...
Must be something right to what I posted I guess.


Now go read the same treaty and find out the follwoing parts:



Article 5
...
2.. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party to the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.


Simply put you failed on your end regarding MAT, so we block you on our end, and not on any other "third parties" end.
Just on our end.
Legal.



Article 7

1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.


So MAT being official flag carrier of "Macedonia", therefore FYROM is in violation of the treaty.
Simple.




C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS
Article 11

1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).
2. The Parties agree that the ongoing economic development of the Party of the Second Part should be supported through international cooperation, as far as possible by a close relationship of the Party of the Second Part with the European Economic Area and the European Union.


Couldn't be written any clearer.
So whenever FYROM enters an International Organization Greece is part of, it does so under the name of FYROM provisioned in the Accord, and therefore if it tries to play the fool with the "Macedonia" thingy later on, it will receive appropriate responce... so it shouldn't complain about it.




Article 22
This Interim Accord is not directed against any other State or entity and it does not infringe on the rights and duties resulting from bilateral and multilateral agreements already in force that the Parties have concluded with other States or international organizations.


That's for the NATO thingy.


So in conclussion the Interim Accord is between Greece and FYROM (the only real part on your posts), but it is very specific as far as the Greek openings made and the relevant FYROMian obligations to them.
And since it's backed by a UN resolution...

In simple words again...
you can't and will never be part of any International treaty we are part of, and we can block you from, as long as you don't become part of it based on the Interim Accord provisions and obligations.
Once you become part and start dishonouring your signature, you will face the consequences naturally.

As I said:
Unless of course we are to accept that FYROM should become member of any/all International organizations without Greek objection (honouring the Accord), while FYROM can both officially (statement you posted) and by officially supported private individuals/companies (such as MAT) ignore any/all provisions/obligations from it's part (disshonouring the Accord).
Seems to me you guys have a very weird sence of implementing treaties.





HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

@Kinmid

Oh again playing the "Not me .... the Other" Game
or "the insults" come back ......
sorry to say but the tone of the posts is the tone you will deserve forever until you stop to be arrogant and patronizing (yes beginning a post like that could be seen as arrogant :

Such a long post of yours, and yet no actual truth on actual FACTS.
Just same plain irrelevant side-stories, besides and outside actual FACTSso either learn to smooth your writting or expect anothers answers with a high level of
same game-tune of insults (the pity is that you know how to do ..... as your above post shows)

now answers :
On the issue of private vs state, and the officially violated Interim Accord by FYROM in regard to MAT just bear in mind as well that:
MAT (Macedonian Airlines) may be a privately owned company but was granted the status as flag carrier by the FYROM government in 2000. nothing regulatory based on international rules, this argument would not stand in front of lawyers


-On the issue of illegal actions towards business and private companies let's just bear in mind that:

MAT retains a veto right on the issuing of new licenses within FYROM, even though the competition authority has ruled this to be illegal.
Never said they are 100 % clear in how they deal their business ... however until now it concerns internal companies .... let's see if this will remain if some foreign companies want to jump in


-
On the issue of FYROM respecting the law of free commerce let's also bear in mind that:
"Macedonia" has bilateral air service agreements with 15 EU member states that severely restrict competition.Interpretation ...... after all it was signed with 15 EC members .... show me a text where it shows restriction of competition and i will incline to your point of view on that part, however a bilateral agreement is a basic document to allow civil aviation travel between both territories....no more, no less (Greece has exactly the same with China, Canada and any other destinations outside EC as it is a EC member)
somebody is talking about

irrelevant side-stories
??




2.. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party to the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.

Legal ?
As far as i see the term notwithstanding is clear enough. Concerning the second bolded sentence, it concerns the trade and commerce documents and how they are entitled or labelled and how any of the parties are designated in such documents.... I know that legal language is a little subtile moreover when it is not you own language, unfortunaly for you, i had under the eyes the text in French which lead to a much less favorable reading to the first party than you want to see

Moreover why did you not quote the article 8 to make it clear and balanced.....:


1. The Parties shall refrain from imposing any impediment to the movement of people or goods between their territories or through the territory of either Party to the territory of the other. Both Parties shall cooperate to facilitate such movements in accordance with international law and custom.

remains Legal ??


for the article 11


1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).

As far as i see your veto to entering of FYROM (as it was named for the NATO council) is less than Legal from this text....even if the Name issue was not solved at that time.... and yes playing the fool by the ultranationalists was a mistake ....
However if you want to deal from a legal point of view, "Macedonia" entered the NATO summit as FYROM (as in every international summit) and would have not be labelled something else here and there until the name issue solved by a bilateral agreement
But as stated above, NATO is far from being a law court so, so far for the UN accords and other resolutions with this organization (and before you jump to say that here i am biased, it was true concerning other issues like Cyprus, Kosovo or others ......)


you can't and will never be part of any International treaty we are part of, and we can block you from, as long as you don't become part of it based on the Interim Accord provisions and obligations.
regarding the accord, everytime FYROM want to enter an international organization as FYROM, your vetos are illegal
That's the Macedonian politicians did not understood well and that's their fault .....

[kinmid]

@Mordoror

Ignoring your rumblings on the first part I will just post the link from where my initial three statements where made:
http://www.seerecon.org/gen/Documents/SEE%20Air%20Transport%20_9%20February%2007_.pdf

So I guess that the:
"Office for South East Europe" (European Commission & World Bank)
And it's assesment on:
ECAA & Western Balkan
Of February 2007...

Noticing:


...

MAT Macedonian Airlines is
privately owned but was granted the status as flag carrier by the government in 2000.
...
MAT retains a veto right
on the issuing of new licenses, even though the competition authority has ruled this to be illegal.
...

Macedonia has
bilateral air service agreements with 15 EU member states that severely restrict competition.
...


Is irrelevant to your perception of reality i guess...


Yet whether you like it or not the first part:


MAT Macedonian Airlines is privately owned but was granted the status as flag carrier by the government in 2000.


Is an official violation by FYROM of the provisions on which it entered into ECAA, meaning without Greek objection, as clearly defined in the following part of the Interim Accord:


C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS
Article 11

1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).
2. The Parties agree that the ongoing economic development of the Party of the Second Part should be supported through international cooperation, as far as possible by a close relationship of the Party of the Second Part with the European Economic Area and the European Union.



Yet whether you like it or not the second part:


MAT retains a veto right on the issuing of new licenses, even though the competition authority has ruled this to be illegal.


Is crystal clear on how those (MAT) complaining for the business part of this, perceive their own end and obligations towards business.


Yet whether you like it or not the third part:


Macedonia has bilateral air service agreements with 15 EU member states that severely restrict competition.


Is crystal clear too.

And both of the last two parts are also crystal clear for the perception of those hidding behind "Interpretation" comments on an official assesment by the above mentioned authority.

--------


Now on your other comments...




2.. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party to the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.



You will not see me object to any part of the Interim Accord, let alone try and hide around my finger.

The specific part is perfectly clear, and also in a phrase you again seem to ignore a bit down the same article:
"In this context"

And naturally from the same article:


The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.


Key part is:
between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.
Meaning FYROM and others besides Greece.
Well guess what?
Greece isn't a third party, and we blocked your MAT company on our own end alone, as provisioned in the Interim Accord and as clearly mentioned on the very same part you quoted in bold too.
MAT can fly free everywhere else.
I guess my first posting this was in chinese and that's why you missed it.

So IN FACT MAT complains are not valid, while Greek action is legal.


And I love the way you choose to argument on this one:



1. The Parties shall refrain from imposing any impediment to the movement of people or goods between their territories or through the territory of either Party to the territory of the other. Both Parties shall cooperate to facilitate such movements in accordance with international law and custom.



In case you missed it the Interim Accord is a whole legal document with a UN resolution backing it, so all articles in it are taken as a whole and not as a partial entity, while it's adopted nature by a UN resolution actually makes it "international law and custom" for all that it provisions for in regard to our issue with FYROM.

So once again let's see the actual reality and not the selective perception of it...

The above part is from article-8 on the first part of the Interim Accord that describes the:
"FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CONFIDENCE-BUILDING MEASURES"

Which FYROM actually violates by making MAT its official flag carrier, and by it's official statement in ECAA (you posted).

Article-5 of the very same part is clear on the Greek right to react on it's own end as I already posted.

Article-7 of the very same part is clear too on the FYROM failure of taking effective measures towards friendly relations and confidence-building, and again points out that FYROM is actually violating by making MAT its official flag carrier, and by it's official statement in ECAA (you posted).

So basically having the FACT that FYROM f*cked up the entire process of friendly relations as the Interim Accord provisions in the first part, we can clearly see how it perceives honouring International Treaties.

And you were saying about aticle-8?


Finally on NATO thingy...
Yeah right... "Macedonia" entered the ECAA as FYROM too, and we all read your own posted official thesis while they signed in, and their own official attitude once within.

Keep ignoring the fact you've been dennied invitation on the basis of the NATO prerequisites and terms for membership... and not the name.
Specifically the part for good neighbour relation with... another member state of NATO (Greece), and play the FYROM thingy part of the specific application all you want, but in your own post and on the MAT thingy we actually see how FYROM honors it's signature once it gets what it wants.
And we also saw your FYROM good neighbout intention with your official violations of other parts of the Accord durring the time period prior to the NATO summit.

So once again I say:
Unless of course we are to accept that FYROM should become member of any/all International organizations without Greek objection (honouring the Accord), while FYROM can both officially (statement you posted) and by officially supported private individuals/companies (such as MAT) ignore any/all provisions/obligations from it's part (disshonouring the Accord).
Seems to me you guys have a very weird sence of implementing treaties.

Meaning we are expected to accept you in NATO despite the unfriendly attitude you demonstrate, despite the disshonor of your own signatures, and naturally when you deside to change your fyrom name once a NATO member, we will also have to endure your propaganda for us being hostile and illegal towards you... again?
I think not.



HAVE FUN !!!

[Mordoror]

Is irrelevant to your perception of reality i guess...
re-read me back, i answered to your quoting
perhaps not reading me is relevant in your reality but in my world it is impolite


Is an official violation by FYROM of the provisions on which it entered into ECAA, meaning without Greek objection, as clearly defined in the following part of the Interim Accord:
you are again mixing two things : the UN agreement and the ECAA rules
OK


the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).
we are here talking about the party meaning the states, not the private companies...given the fact that MAT is a private company, even if it is a flag company (although i accord you that it was done under some "strange" agreement in Fyrom whihc is something i canot bear) do not give the right in a regulatory point of view (how many time should i repeat that, regulatory-ECAA, regulatory-ECAA, ask a lawyer if you want) to block its flight over your territory for anything else than a security issue


Is crystal clear on how those (MAT) complaining for the business part of this, perceive their own end and obligations towards business.
Did you read me above. I told you that they are not 100 % clear (far from it) but here we are not talking about their mislead in FYROm but about the behaviour of Greece with EC laws !!


Macedonia has bilateral air service agreements with 15 EU member states that severely restrict competition. Is crystal clear too.

read me above as you didn't answer my question ...... find where these agreements that are normal for country to country travels are something to be put on the table in that issue

You hate so much FYROM that it drips from your posts
I am talking here about regulatory and EU rules not the flag, not the name, not Cyprus or something that hits the greek proud even if the greek action is linked with that
But i am here under the law point of view, not under patriotic point of view ... and you still come back with the "not me ...the other" syndrom
amazing ....


MAT can fly free everywhere else.
not true, as you restricted acess to your airspace ... so even here the third party is applicable as if for example if MAT want to fly above Greece (let's say somewhere in north Africa, or somewhere in Egypt) it has to avoid you airspace which means reducing the lenght of the trip so given the airplane that do not allow always to reach the destination.....easy to understand



UN resolution backing
roflrofl are you playing the naive roflrofl
International laws, especially those linked with civil aviation are very specific....UN resolution....funny .....
When did the UN resolutions overpassed international laws on trade, business and market ?? roflrofl


but in your own post and on the MAT thingy we actually see how FYROM honors it's signature once it gets what it wants.



what an honor, i am here talking for a whole country rofl
man, you make my day funny rofl

be serious in your posts for a while, it will change (and clean a little the venom that drips from your finger, you are wasting your keyboard ...)


when you deside to change your fyrom name once a NATO member,
this has to be done by bilateral agreemebts
Are you taking the other countries for silly newbies ?
A first move for that will be diplomaticly smashed by any of the following EC/NATO member including France and if it would be the case, it would be rightly done ....
any name change has to be done properly
but by your closed eyes for everything that come from a Fyromian or stated as such, you missed that point in all the posts i made
....

[kinmid]

@Mordoror




You hate so much FYROM that it drips from your posts


Thanks for the wonderfull talk we had in this very interesting topic created out of pure love for truth and honesty!

I believe everything anyone needs in order to make his/hers own mind is already presented so I leave it to them to decide.




HAVE FUN !!!

[achilles]

I heard that the Skops are complaining also because Greece is implementing complex bureaucratic procedures that hinder the trade of sheep and goats between the two countries. This is not a joke. p-)

[Mordoror]

At least this can be explained by sanitary rules and do not shock more than that ......

there is a difference betwwen procedures as complexes as could be and a full restriction to acess or passing by ....

[achilles]

At least this can be explained by sanitary rules and do not shock more than that ......

there is a difference betwwen procedures as complexes as could be and a full restriction to acess or passing by ....

I dont mind but...you always have to reply to everything and try to justify everything dont you?

It seems to me that you always try to make a point even though you dont have one ;)

[Mordoror]

try to make a point
make a point not really,

i just give my feeling about something that could be explicable (just to says that all the relations between Greece and FYROM are not to be seen only under the name-bad neighbouring-hostility from each side view) and by such there can be some logical explanantions about stuff which is regarded under "political overviews"

after all even if both countries disagree on a lot of things: "la vie continue ........."

[kinmid]

@Achilles

Don't try and explain him any details.
He will just play the fool on you and keep rumbling his no-point and other irrelevant comments of his own perception or "feelings".

His real puprose is to keep repeating the same irrelevant "feelings" he has, and the same irrelevant "logical explanations" he so vigorously shares with the rest of us.
And when he fails in arguments he hopes he will succeed with insults such as our "hate dripping" & "nationalistic approach" towards FYROM.



HAVE FUN !!!