Small Tad Of Info Request On Shooting A Pistol

[Steelersfan413]

Now before I post my question, I would like to point out that no, this question is nor help in the sport of airsoft or painball, and no I will probably not use this information in a real-world scenario. I just wanted to know the information behind it.

So I have noticed that different units in the military will fire their sidearms differently. Some times, they will have their non-firing arm bent, like so:

http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/Pistol/DodgePistolRange.jpg

but sometimes, the shooter will have both arms not very bent at all, and very level with the middle of the body, like so:

http://images.military.com/EQGpics/EQG_WSAM1911_1.jpg

Does it depend on the weapon, or the shooter's preference, or if they are using it outdoors or in CQB?

I've also noticed that more specialized units like SF and SWAT teams will use the 'arms not so bent' method, (picture on the bottom,) while infantrymen and regular police officers will use the top method.

I just want some clarification please.

[SGMGSG9]

~((( SON, THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. )))~

http://www.youtube.com/v/ysa50-plo48


This guy is one of my personal Hero's: TODD JARRETT

[Steelersfan413]

Great video man,

i got a lot of info

but why are people taught the elbow bent way if it prves less accident?

[James]

There are a variety of ways to shoot. When I was an instructor I'd always stress that the important thing was putting your rounds on target. Use of body armor and other equipment, the ability to move, and a variety of other factors in the environment around you generally lead "tactical" pistol shooters to face their targets the way the guy in the 2nd picture in your initial post is. It's more or less the way I shoot too.

I hope this was helpful.

[SGMGSG9]

The bent elbow is the Weaver stance Todd mentions in this video. Its more comfortable for some people. When my arms get tired from the Isosceles Stance (stright arms out) I revert to the weaver to give one arm a rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_stance

http://weaverstance.com/history.htm

[OhioSquid]

I, for one, find the isosceles stance more accurate. I use a modified isosceles in that my knees are bent with week leg forward, weight on the balls of my feet.

Others have better success with weaver; from both training and practice it seems a matter of preference.

[Chulo]

Wasnt the "bent arm" stance off the old style of giving the smallest profile when shooting, and as police/armed forces started to wear armor that stance exposed a weakpoint, so the best was a full on stance that squared the shoulders and expose the chest plate and give balance rather than the unarmored side.

just asking, i remember that from somewhere

[Steelersfan413]

Wow, just shooting targets seems like a whole other 'ballgame' for lack of a better word.

Thanks for the info though.

If any of you live or are going to be in the Florida area anytime soon, you'll have to maybe teach me how to shoot ;)

[SGMGSG9]

Join a local club bro, there's lots of good knowledge to be found there. How old are ya anyway's?

[Samurai]

Theres also, Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.)
heres a link to some vids
http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/car.html

some reading
http://www.pointshooting.com/carmag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_Axis_Relock

[colmurph]

First picture is of Marines firing. They don't know how to roll their sleeves so how do you expect them to take a correct stance? The Weaver stance that they are using was developed by the FBI which has their school at Quantico, VA which is probably very near to where the above picture was taken. It is not terribly accurate as it allows excess play in the suporting arm.

The other photo shows SOF folks who are using a stance that ensures accuracy.

[James]

First picture is of Marines firing. They don't know how to roll their sleeves so how do you expect them to take a correct stance? The Weaver stance that they are using was developed by the FBI which has their school at Quantico, VA which is probably very near to where the above picture was taken. It is not terribly accurate as it allows excess play in the suporting arm.

The other photo shows SOF folks who are using a stance that ensures accuracy.

There's nothing "incorrect" about the Weaver Stance. It might be old fashioned, and there might be some disadvantages to using it in certain situations, but it definitely works. It is one of the positions I was taught when I qualified with the pistol in the USMC back in the 90s. Like Todd Jarrett said in his video, a lot of military training is a bit behind the times.


Wasnt the "bent arm" stance off the old style of giving the smallest profile when shooting, and as police/armed forces started to wear armor that stance exposed a weakpoint, so the best was a full on stance that squared the shoulders and expose the chest plate and give balance rather than the unarmored side.

That is indeed part of the answer. It can also be a difficult position to shoot from if you are wearing bulky gear. Another reason it isn't so popular anymore is because it can hinder one's ability to move - look at the 1st pic in the thread, and think about what the shooter closest to the camera would have to do if he wanted to move 3 feet to his left. Then, imagine facing your target with your shoulders and hips more or less square to it, feet pointing forward, and think how much easier it is to move left or right.

[California Joe]

We were taught a "Modified Weaver" stance when I was in cop school. I can see where the isoceles style stance would be more instinctive. Then again, I'm not a serious pistolero.

[Buckeye67]

I think there's probably as much hype, misinformation and mythology surrounding various shooting styles/positions/stances as there is in the 9mm/.45acp/.357 Mag/.40 Cal debate.

How one shoots is not only a matter of preference for the shooter, it also depends on the preference(s) of your instructors (you'll most likely feel most comfortable with the postition you were first taught). I don't think there's anything inherently "wrong" with any of them, be it Weaver, Modified Weaver, Isoceles, UberDeltaNinjaSealDeathMagick Style - as long as you're able to perforate the target in all the right places before the target perforates you.

The important things are sight alignment and trigger control. After that, it's whatever you like (in my opinion anyway).

[Steelersfan413]

Well this is way to much for me to take in, (that's what she said. lol) And I'll read your posts and try to word them in a way that a tad easier to understand.

To answer your question SGM,


Join a local club bro, there's lots of good knowledge to be found there. How old are ya anyway's?

Not old enough p-)

[Laconian]

Everything old is new again. The weaver stance was developed by Jack Weaver, a CA deputy sheriff who shot pistol competition, namely the Leatherslap host by Col. Jeff Cooper, in the 1950s. It started to dominate pistol competition and was picked up in various modifications, by many LE agencies. It has some great applications and, like CJ, I learned it when I first became a cop.

However there are some quirks about the stance that have had it fall out of favor (although I still many older shooters use it in competition) in the tactical arena. For one, it does bring your off side armpit forward, where body armor is likely not to be for LE/.mil types. It also has a tendency to hinder turning movement to the off side and kinda binds you up, unlike the turret-like isosceles. Lastly, the stance is asymetric, turning the upper & lower bodies against themselves, this is a complex motor skill and as stress (& HR) increases the body's ability to perform complex motor skills decreases (somewhere about 145 bpm), in some instances not being able to perform them at all. (If you have ever seen the Keho Bros. shoot-out with a Ohio SP & local deputy - both LEOs adopt an isosceles stance during the shooting, but both were trained Weaver stance shooters).

That being said, there is nothing wrong with Weaver, but I haven't seen many top shooting competitors use lately. We make our agents shoot a modified isosceles, its not an option.