Israel to pay £1.7m to family of shot British filmmaker

[Lov3ll]

Israel to pay £1.7m to family of shot British filmmaker in deal over killers
From Times Online
April 22, 2008

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00320/james_miller2_185x3_320524a.jpg
James Miller was killed while making a film about children in Israel
Sheera Frenkel, Jerusalem

The Israeli Government is prepared to break legal precedent and compensate the family of a British filmmaker who was fatally shot by an Israeli soldier five years ago.
Israel’s Foreign Ministry announced that it would pay $3.5 million (£1.7million) to the family of James Miller, in return for the British government closing the case and rescinding its intention to ask that the soldiers involved in the incident be extradited.
Lawyers for the family said that the deal had yet to be officially approved, although the case was “moving in a positive direction”.
Tzipi Livni, the Israeli Foreign Minister, negotiated with British government representatives over the case. Officials from the ministry said that the incident had “burdened relations” with the UK.

Related Links
Israeli soldier faces Yard probe over Briton’s death (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article685141.ece)
Diary of a death foretold: how Gaza Briton was shot by Israelis (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article704105.ece)

Mr Miller, an award-winning Welsh producer and director, was making a film about the impact of violence on Israeli and Palestinian children when he was shot in the neck in the Gaza Strip on May 2, 2003. He was one of four internationals killed or injured by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) during the height of intifada in April and May of 2003.
Michael Sfard, one of the attorneys who has worked on the cases, said: “There are no illusions about why these incidents happened so closely together. The Israeli army was given reckless commands and rules of engagement for its soldiers. There was a general feeling of immunity among soldiers."
The IDF is being prosecuted for three similar cases. Thomas Hurndall, 21, from London, died after being shot in the head during fighting in Gaza on April 11, 2003. American Rachel Corrie, 23, was crushed to death trying to prevent a military bulldozer from tearing down a home in Gaza on March 16 of the same year. Brian Avery, also from the US, was severely injured when he was shot walking down a road in the West Bank city of Jenin on April 5, but has recovered.
Mr Miller’s case is unique, however, in that he was working as a journalist at the time of the incident, and that extensive evidence exists from the day of his death. An APTN tape from the documentary Mr Miller was making depicts him and a colleague carrying a white flag while leaving a Palestinian home in a refugee camp. Soldiers fired a single shot in Mr Miller’s direction, after which a voice can be heard calling out: “We are British journalists.” A second shot was then fired, hitting Mr Miller in the front of his neck.
In a statement issued after Mr Miller’s death, a military spokesman said: “The IDF expresses sorrow at the death of the cameraman who entered a combat zone. Cameramen who knowingly enter a combat zone endanger themselves as well as the troops, and clearly run the risk of being caught in the crossfire.”
The Israeli Military Police closed their investigation into Miller’s death in March 2005, announcing that they could not ascertain the responsibility of the soldier who fired the bullet. Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean, a former British Foreign Office Minister, said that she was dismayed by the decision of the military police to close the investigation. “I deeply sympathise with James’s family, who have worked so hard to secure justice for James. The British Government will continue to raise James’s case with the government of Israel.”
Mr Miller was born in Haverfordwest, the son of an army officer and headmistress. His first film, Prime Suspects, won the 1999 Royal Television Society’s award for its depiction of the massacre in Kosovo. Two subsequent films shot in Afghanistan, Beneath the Veil, about the life of women during the Taleban regime, and Unholy War, shot in the height of fighting in 2001, won Emmy and Peabody awards respectively. Mr Miller also posthumously won the Rory Peck Award for his unfinished final film, Death in Gaza.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3797726.ece

[Military-G]

Always baffles me how you get certain "values" for a persons life.

Its a sad story but why was their son worth £1.7 million.... Does he have 10 thousand children that need to be looked after and the money goes to that? I dont think so.

[CombatBoots]

I don't know that case, and I haven't been there to judge.
That said I must say that you can not put a price on human life but also you can not imagine that putting a soldier into prison will make it easier either.

There seem to be enough of these cases to send a clear message; It is a war zone, the risk was there and it was clear.

It happened and now it's become a matter of politics more than justice.

Journalists in war zones want to capture the moments that define war and the misery of the people, thus they are putting themselves up front and rely on "TV" and "Press" written all over. I'm not taking sides but I just hope that none of the people here are going to start flaming because it's so easy to do when you are ignorant to one of the sides.

RIP to J.Miller

[Laworkerbee]

Mr Miller’s case is unique, however, in that he was working as a journalist at the time of the incident, and that extensive evidence exists from the day of his death. An APTN tape from the documentary Mr Miller was making depicts him and a colleague carrying a white flag while leaving a Palestinian home in a refugee camp. Soldiers fired a single shot in Mr Miller’s direction, after which a voice can be heard calling out: “We are British journalists.” A second shot was then fired, hitting Mr Miller in the front of his neck.

I remember the scene as I have watched his movie, it was not so cut and dry as this explanation. It happened at night and it was quite confusing, I also believe it was a Druze serving in the IDF who who killed him.

Either way R.I.P.

I don't appreciate Rachel Corrie being brought in to this case, she was a Darwin award winner.

[BugHunt]

Strange that, i remeber watching the scene and it looked like cold calculated murder to me.

He was in a group standing still and waving flags and verbally announcing there presence. He was shot in the neck just above his body armour. By one imagines aimed fire from soldier who wasnt under any fire at the time.

The shooter was "punished" with what amounted to a slap on the wrist. With lots of talk of how it wasnt really a Israeli, and he was "some crazy" rogue Druze.

One might imagine what would happen if those "rogues" slew palestinians without cause there wouldnt even have been a murmur.


The Israelis also managed to hold up his (or might have been Thomas Hurndall) ambulance keeping him from getting critical treatment.


This was in the wider context of a spate of multiple shootings of protestors and journalists all in questionable circumstances. Itll never been proven - but a cynic might argue it was deliberate policy to muzzle those "unwanted".


But hey 1 scene mulitple interpretations right.....


I wonder what behind the scenes pressure was made for this payout.

[Laworkerbee]

Strange that, i remeber watching the scene and it looked like cold calculated murder to me.

He was in a group standing still and waving flags and verbally announcing there presence. He was shot in the neck just above his body armour. By one imagines aimed fire from soldier who wasnt under any fire at the time.

The shooter was "punished" with what amounted to a slap on the wrist. With lots of talk of how it wasnt really a Israeli, and he was "some crazy" rogue Druze.

One might imagine what would happen if those "rogues" slew palestinians without cause there wouldnt even have been a murmur.


The Israelis also managed to hold up his (or might have been Thomas Hurndall) ambulance keeping him from getting critical treatment.

I thought it was the scene where he was leaving a house and running late, it was dark and there was music pumping from an M-113, they shouted they were approaching journos and a cople of shots rang out.

Am I mixing two different shootings up?

[Winger]

I remember the scene as I have watched his movie, it was not so cut and dry as this explanation. It happened at night and it was quite confusing, I also believe it was a Druze serving in the IDF who who killed him.

Either way R.I.P.

I don't appreciate Rachel Corrie being brought in to this case, she was a Darwin award winner.

Can't argue on the standing in front of a military bulldozer. Darwin ftw. It's too bad it wasn't someone more like Robert Redford. Wow, I can't believe my insensitivity.

[BugHunt]

Hmm in the documentary it was dark - and relatively quiet.

Few distractions. There was a group of journalists waving white flags (they had the blue helments and body armour). They walk out slowly annouced who they were....bang pause bang.

I think (and i might be mixing incidents up here) they couldnt get out until late because the alley they had come in from was taking sniper fire from a Israeli checkpoint.

Theres a full documentary knocking about - its bound to be online somewhere.

[Military-G]

Apparently ..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article704105.ece



Mr Hurndall, from North London, was trying to lead children out of the line of fire in Gaza when he was targeted by an Israeli army marksman, who had a rifle with a telescopic sight. The peace activist was wearing a bright orange jacket to identify him as a civilian volunteer.


A sad story but either way I dont see how his life is valued at £1.7 million, now his family can have a party with the windfall? I just dont comprehend .. Like I mentioned before I understand if he had kids and they needed looking after etc but how do you value a life and at such an odd and high number too ...

[BugHunt]

Can't argue on the standing in front of a military bulldozer. Darwin ftw. It's too bad it wasn't someone more like Robert Redford. Wow, I can't believe my insensitivity.


Yeah what a scumbag peacefully protesting - about the punitive demolitions.

And having the courage of those convictions.


Kill them all - right?

[LEGEND]

Kill them all - right?

No need if they keep on throwing themselves under bulldozers.

[kahn267]

The shooter was "punished" with what amounted to a slap on the wrist. With lots of talk of how it wasnt really a Israeli, and he was "some crazy" rogue Druze.

.

Im not a Druze, but I am somewhat offended that you label them as not "really Israeli" . The Druze people are probably one of the most loyal religious groups you will ever see. Their culture oozes with loyalty for the land they live in, proven in Israel by how low the percentage is for those who defer from the army and the number that proceed to high positions. I can even go as far as saying that they can be considered more 'Israeli' then some of the Jewish Israelis

One issue that also needs to be addressed is that film crews operating in Gaza etc can gain intelligence and therefore sacrificing the safety of IDF troops. In cases where the cameramen are filming live, it can expose the soldiers location and numbers, allowing for gunmen to have greater success in attacking them.

[Moledet]

Yeah what a scumbag peacefully protesting - about the punitive demolitions.

And having the courage of those convictions.


Kill them all - right?
Rushing to stand infront of a 4m. tall D9 that can barely see the tip of the first floor is idiotic.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/bulldozers/d9_c.jpg

[little icebear]

A sad story but either way I dont see how his life is valued at £1.7 million, now his family can have a party with the windfall? I just dont comprehend .. Like I mentioned before I understand if he had kids and they needed looking after etc but how do you value a life and at such an odd and high number too ...


I can´t believe that you´re constantly sh*ting yourself about the amount of money his family is going to receive.
It´s one thing to say: "You cannot measure a life´s worth in money" - I would agree on that.
But you make it sound as if those ridiculous 1.700 000 bugs are actually way too much.

You are aware about the sums people receive as compensation for the weirdest things like pouring some hot coffee over themselves?

[BugHunt]

Im not a Druze, but I am somewhat offended that you label them as not "really Israeli" . The Druze people are probably one of the most loyal religious groups you will ever see. Their culture oozes with loyalty for the land they live in, proven in Israel by how low the percentage is for those who defer from the army and the number that proceed to high positions. I can even go as far as saying that they can be considered more 'Israeli' then some of the Jewish Israelis

What as in they lived on the land from way back? One suspects thats at the heart of the problems over there :roll:

Yes i thought it was wrong at the time as well m8.

It was a form of damage control - infer he was a "arab", an outsider hence the state he was in uniform for was somehow less culpable.



One issue that also needs to be addressed is that film crews operating in Gaza etc can gain intelligence and therefore sacrificing the safety of IDF troops. In cases where the cameramen are filming live, it can expose the soldiers location and numbers, allowing for gunmen to have greater success in attacking them.

Well what about siezing there cameras or not giving visa's or access to these "intell" camera crews? Works for the Chinese ;)


Embarking on a deliberate policy of killing those unarmed is always controversail....

[Moledet]

Well what about siezing there cameras or not giving visa's or access to these "intell" camera crews? Works for the Chinese ;)


Embarking on a deliberate policy of killing those unarmed is always controversail....
It also worked for the US in Iraq, only those that accompanied the soldiers could get footage and that footage was also checked.

There's no deliberate policy of killing news crews (or any unarmed person), though if it looks like the "news crew" belongs to Hamas and they don't listen to orders and try to avoid an arrest/investigation they might get shot at.

[gilgoul]

W
Embarking on a deliberate policy of killing those unarmed is always controversail....

I doubt there is any such a policy.
A few incidents don't make for a policy, but for what they are, incidents.
Those "journalists" don't embed nor coordinate their movments with the IDF, and in man occasions did terrorist groups tried to pass as journalists.
It doesn't excuse this particular case, but it shows a general climate.
Now, that our 'foreign ministry' decided to settle this issue wit mone instead of going all the way to explain it's case is beyond me, those "journalists" know what they are doing, they enjoy a freedom of movement rarely seen on a battle field and yet, when somebody gets hurt, they all complain.
In a few days, we are going to mark the 5th anniversary of the bombing at Mike's place, bombing perpetrated by two british nationals who could leave Gaza thanks unsearched thanks to "journalists" and foreign "peace" activists.
I lost three friends in this bombing.

[Atlantic Friend]

Always baffles me how you get certain "values" for a persons life.

Its a sad story but why was their son worth £1.7 million.... Does he have 10 thousand children that need to be looked after and the money goes to that? I dont think so.

Yeah...well, it's not the price for his life, it's the price for the British government to drop the case. Doesn't make it any more palatable, come to think of it.

[MonkeyLibFront]

As we have seen with the Saudis this government can and has been bought off. I hope they don't drop the case.

[Military-G]

I can´t believe that you´re constantly sh*ting yourself about the amount of money his family is going to receive.
It´s one thing to say: "You cannot measure a life´s worth in money" - I would agree on that.
But you make it sound as if those ridiculous 1.700 000 bugs are actually way too much.

You are aware about the sums people receive as compensation for the weirdest things like pouring some hot coffee over themselves?

Yes i do realise how much morons get for pouring coffee on themselves usuualy in the sue happy usa, why is it so bizarre i cant understand why his family deserves a pay out of £1.7 million ..... Do Palestinians killed on accident while terrorists are being targeted get 1.7 million each?? No i dont think they do .. so yes i find it hard to understand the huge pay off. And yes just to clarify i do think those 1.7 are to much, unless he had a wife and children that depended on him financially and in that case i could understand a smaller pay package to help them along but my guess is mum and dad are now going to be rich so their son being killed will now become irrelevant. I wonder if they will donate the money to the kids he was trying to apparently lead to safety???

[sreto]

nd yes just to clarify i do think those 1.7 are to much, unless he had a wife and children that depended on him financially and in that case i could understand a smaller pay package to help them along but my

If you got killed would you want your wife and children to get a aid package to 'help' her along? Instead of getting a pay out which will secure their financial future (the thing you would have done) in the long run

[Military-G]

If you got killed would you want your wife and children to get a aid package to 'help' her along? Instead of getting a pay out which will secure their financial future (the thing you would have done) in the long run

Yes I would, thats my point .. but surely not 1.7 million (how do you even put a price on each individual), like i said is every palestinian that is acidentally killed entitled to this much money .. we both know the answer is no. So why is the english journalist who volunterely entered a hot spot.

The soldier didnt get a life sentance for murder so we take it that this is an accidental death? Is everybody acidentally killed now going to start being paid huge amounts of money?

Surely you can understand my point.

[Libertas]

Yes i do realise how much morons get for pouring coffee on themselves usuualy in the sue happy usa, why is it so bizarre i cant understand why his family deserves a pay out of £1.7 million ..... Do Palestinians killed on accident while terrorists are being targeted get 1.7 million each?? No i dont think they do .. so yes i find it hard to understand the huge pay off. And yes just to clarify i do think those 1.7 are to much, unless he had a wife and children that depended on him financially and in that case i could understand a smaller pay package to help them along but my guess is mum and dad are now going to be rich so their son being killed will now become irrelevant. I wonder if they will donate the money to the kids he was trying to apparently lead to safety???

Its a pay off, Israel drops the cash, those in the UK drops the case. Israel doesn't give two sh*ts about James Miller or the suffering his family has gone through, they don't want the problem on their doorstep.


The soldier didnt get a life sentance for murder so we take it that this is an accidental death? Is everybody acidentally killed now going to start being paid huge amounts of money?

The way the incident has been decribed, it doesn't seem so much of an accident. Just because no one got a "life sentence" does mean jack.

[Military-G]

But if its so obvious that the shooting wasnt an acciddent why wasnt the soldier charged more heavily?

Surely an Israelie soldier deliberatly targetting a civilian would sicken even his fellow troops? and the court trying him.

[Hot Lips]

Always baffles me how you get certain "values" for a persons life.

Its a sad story but why was their son worth £1.7 million.... Does he have 10 thousand children that need to be looked after and the money goes to that? I dont think so.


I don't know, but I would hope the amount is such that it makes the person or persons paying stop and think. For me that would be a few thousand dollars... to someone with millions/billions.... well you get it. But, I don't know if that's the case.

[Libertas]

But if its so obvious that the shooting wasnt an acciddent why wasnt the soldier charged more heavily?

Surely an Israelie soldier deliberatly targetting a civilian would sicken even his fellow troops? and the court trying him.

The obvious answer isn't always the correct answer. People get away with murder and other crimes. This isn't a perfect world either, people look out for each other whether they did right or wrong. I can't say whether or not this was such a case but neither can you.

I don't like this payment thing because to me it suggests that Israel either has something to hide or just doesn't give a rats ass (half ass investigation, probably biased as well).

[Military-G]

The obvious answer isn't always the correct answer. People get away with murder and other crimes. This isn't a perfect world either, people look out for each other whether they did right or wrong. I can't say whether or not this was such a case but neither can you.

I don't like this payment thing because to me it suggests that Israel either has something to hide or just doesn't give a rats ass (half ass investigation, probably biased as well).

I Know I know, I find it very confusing .. Totally admit it.

[little icebear]

Putting conspiracy theories of a planned assasination aside and asuming that it was an (avoidable) accident.

There are two parties.

The Brits, who want to inquire whether this accident was avoidable and find out which Israeli was to trigger-happy and messed up big time so they can file charges against him.

Then there is the Israeli side. IDF soldiers are in active combat pretty much everyday and in an enviroment where colleratal damages are always part of the game.
They don´t want a public inquiry, fewest of all by a foreign court because of its predictable impact on the morale of the troopers.
What will another active IDF-Soldier think, when he sees a comrade put behind bars for killing a civilian during combat? He´ll think that it could have easily been himself.
The Israelis want to keep their blade sharp. That´s why they want to avoid seeing a soldier charged with murder or negligent killng and rather pay some money to keep it under the carpet.

[Danik]

Strange that, i remeber watching the scene and it looked like cold calculated murder to me.



Are you sure we watched the same documentary?

Because when I watched it, having absolutely no background information on the movie or the man, I actually thought it was a good documentary, when that scene rolls around, he walks out of the house with another reporter and a white rag tied to a stick into complete darkness I first though "what is he doing". Then the other journalist shouted we are journalists I thought who can hear you? When the first shot rang out it was clear that they were suspect and the IDF wanted them back. When they kept walking I actually yelled at the screen "what the hell are they doing they're going to get shot" within seconds the second shot was fired.

So to you it was murder, to me it was not surprising that someone on a military operation in the middle of the night who fired a warning shot at you and you keep approaching them would shoot you.

[little icebear]

he walks out of the house with another reporter and a white rag tied to a stick into complete darkness I first though "what is he doing".

You may want to read up about the general meaning of a "white rag" in this context.

As far as it goes for "they can´t hear you" - estimated distance was 100 m. Unless they were listening to Megadeth on their MP3 players, they should have been able to hear.
Furthermore I´m not under the impression that there was a warning shot. I´d say the first bullet simply missed. Especially since they stopped walking after the first shot broke.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/4883442.stm

[Danik]

You may want to read up about the general meaning of a "white rag" in this context.

As far as it goes for "they can´t hear you" - estimated distance was 100 m. Unless they were listening to Megadeth on their MP3 players, they should have been able to hear.
Furthermore I´m not under the impression that there was a warning shot. I´d say the first bullet simply missed. Especially since they stopped walking after the first shot broke.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/4883442.stm

So a jury based this decision in a UK court far away from the scene with no cooperation from the IDF essentially lacking most of the physical and eyewitness evidence , did the IDF even have someone in court to dispute the case? because linking me to a BBC article where civilians decide on how warranted a use of lethal force is on a foreign battlefield lacking most of the evidence is really not much of an arguing point.

I don't mean to make light of this man's death. I am simply stating exactly what I thought when I watched that documentary, I did not know anything about it in fact I stumbled onto it by accident and decided to watch it. Yet somehow at my young age, with no combat experience I knew that these reporters were going to be shot the second they decided to approach a tank in the middle of the night during an operation. Frankly reporters especially in Israel, where violence against them is minimal compared to much harsher combat zones feel they can do as they please, from shouting orders at soldiers to getting an inside scoop from a battle tank in the middle of an operation. Lets be serious here what exactly do you need to find out from a tank in the middle of the night? It says he wanted to know if it was safe to come out? That makes perfect sense! Hey theres a tank over there conducting an operation let me approach it. And yes there were two shots. After the first one if should have been clear to turn around and head back. I don't agree that this man had to be shot and especially that he had to have been killed but given the past of the terrorist operations, including posing as reporters, and riding around in ambulances, It would probably strike me as odd that reporters in the middle of the night in complete darkness would approach me in a tank, from his POV he saw two people with big vests approaching holding a stick with a white shirt on it, he fired, they did not stop. I am going on exactly what I saw in that documentary and basing my opinions on that footage. If someone has testimony from the soldier that he fired knowing that it was probably a reporter then please provide it.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It's a while since I saw the footage of that shooting but my impression at the time was that the voice of the Israeli soldier that could be heard (presumably the shooter?) sounded either a bit drunk or a bit stoned.

[Calanen]

Always baffles me how you get certain "values" for a persons life.

Its a sad story but why was their son worth £1.7 million.... Does he have 10 thousand children that need to be looked after and the money goes to that? I dont think so.

He was a journalist. They earn good money. What is the economic loss component, now he cannot earn a living, and is dead? The family loses the benefit of his wages for the next 20 years or so for his working life.

It wouldnt be baffling if you were legally qualified.

[LEGEND]

Heres the actual video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-DIOaCUhFk8

Great idea walk towards an APC on patrol... at night. You think something different would happen to someone in a bulletproof vest and a helmet approaching American or British patrol in Iraq at night? Walking around the border in gaza strip at night deserves a darwin award.

[little icebear]

Well, if it sounds perfectly reasonable to you to shoot some dude waving a white flag, having other civilians around himself, shouting "British Press, don´t shoot", than I can´t help you.

But one little reminder: He was not closing in fast, not running torwards and not aproaching the APC in a vehicle or any of that sh*t that would make one believe he tried to reach the APC in order to activate a bomb or something.
In fact the APC was still well away from were they stood.
There was time to yell at him and command him to stop or to get his hands up or to sing the dixie or whatever.
Instead he was shot. Warning Shot? BS. The first shot missed - that´s pretty obvious since there is no difference between the shot before the one that killed the Brit and the bullets fired afterwards.
And it the case was as clear and easy to understand as you want to picture it, then why the lies from the IDF´s side?
If it was so easy to blame the journalist, the IDF wouldn´t pay a single buck in order to stop the inquiry.



Great idea walk towards an APC on patrol... at night.

No patrol iirc. The APC was standing there all the time, having its eyes on a house near the one the journalists had been in. That´s why they pulled this stunt in the first place.
There were palestinan millitans nearby and they wanted to get themselves and the familiy in their house out of there, before something happened.

[Libertas]

You think something different would happen to someone in a bulletproof vest and a helmet approaching American or British patrol in Iraq at night?

I can't speak from experience but could imagine American and British troops would take into account that they are in a residential area and the people made their presence obvious, a white flag lite up with a flashlight, calling out in English "British journalists." Also after the "warning shot" the journalists stop moving and remain still. The journalists behavior doesn't seem threatening or suspicous what so ever, but if you feel that it is... than so be it.

[CombatBoots]

I can't speak from experience but could imagine American and British troops would take into account that they are in a residential area and the people made their presence obvious, a white flag lite up with a flashlight, calling out in English "British journalists." Also after the "warning shot" the journalists stop moving and remain still. The journalists behavior doesn't seem threatening or suspicous what so ever, but if you feel that it is... than so be it.

It doesn't matter how we see it, but how the soldier has seen it.
Nerves can play with your perception of things and there have been other unrelated incidents that a white flag did not save a life. You need to be sure and have confirmed that the soldier knows of your presence and is aware you are approaching his position and he know's you are civilian.
Especially at night. We don't even know if that soldier knows a word in English, we don't know how he has seen the flag. I do agree and want a full inquiry but I already wrote why I think they want it burried.

But hey, feel free to assume you know enough to pass judgement I can't stop you from being near sighted.

[LEGEND]

I can't speak from experience but could imagine American and British troops would take into account that they are in a residential area and the people made their presence obvious, a white flag lite up with a flashlight, calling out in English "British journalists." Also after the "warning shot" the journalists stop moving and remain still. The journalists behavior doesn't seem threatening or suspicous what so ever, but if you feel that it is... than so be it.

There were cases where journalists have been shot in Iraq by our troops. And other journalists have been shot by insurgents. If you are a journalist in a warzone the risk of being killed is the one you accept.

Just to shed some light on the "going home story". He wasnt in Times Square at the time. The incident happened in the Philadelphia corridor which is a swath of uninhabited land that is a border between Egypt and Gaza. At the time it was a controlled and guarded by the IDF and was a scene of numerous attacks of all kinds against the IDF resulting in many IDF soldiers dead and injured. The zone does not contain any crossings or any destinations that he might have wanted to reach, he walked into that zone towards Israeli positions at night...
This is the same as walking towards USMC lines at night during the fallujah offensive.

[Calanen]

Heres the actual video:


Great idea walk towards an APC on patrol... at night. You think something different would happen to someone in a bulletproof vest and a helmet approaching American or British patrol in Iraq at night? Walking around the border in gaza strip at night deserves a darwin award.

But what is the law there? That anyone walking around outside gets mowed down? I accept that people make mistakes, and its hard to determine what was going on at night. APCs dont want someone with a backpack full of explosives coming close to them. But how far away where they? Is this in accordance with ROEs and international law?

Maybe we could ask the people who are gunners here, like AUDIEM - what was the correct thing to do. Would it be to say, stop where you are and shine a spotlight on them?

[LEGEND]

But what is the law there? That anyone walking around outside gets mowed down?

The Philadelphia corridor is not just "outside", it is like the korean demilitarized zone, its a flattened border area where people have no business of going into, especially at night.

I'm not judging if it was the right thing or not to shoot him, I'm saying he had absolutely no business of being there, especially at night, and by being there he put himself at a great risk.

[little icebear]

The Philadelphia corridor is not just "outside", it is like the korean demilitarized zone, its a flattened border area where people have no business of going into, especially at night.


I see. That´s why there are houses with families inside? According to all sources I´ve seen so far, he was shot at a refugee camp.
Maybe you have different sources?


I'm saying he had absolutely no business of being there, especially at night, and by being there he put himself at a great risk.

He was doing his job. A dangerous one for sure but someone has to do it. Would you post something like "he put himself at risk and had it comming" in the next RIP thread for a fallen soldier?

[LEGEND]

I see. That´s why there are houses with families inside? According to all sources I´ve seen so far, he was shot at a refugee camp.
Maybe you have different sources?



He was doing his job. A dangerous one for sure but someone has to do it. Would you post something like "he put himself at risk and had it comming" in the next RIP thread for a fallen soldier?

Where the refugee camp ends the open swath of land that is philadelphia corridor starts. If you dont walk into the open of the corridor that separates the refugee camp from the fence you wouldn't even be seen from the IDF positions. Maybe you dont realize what Gaza Strip is, you have to understand that Gaza Strip is one of the most violent places on the face of this world and has been so for years. In one incidence when an IDF APC got blown up, gazans were playing soccer with the head of an Israeli soldier whose remains got scattered around. And the corridor where the reporter got shot is not just any piece of gaza its a site of numerous attacks and gunfights. There are plenty of videos showing Israeli APCs and patrol jeeps being blown up in that corridor. The reporter didn't just walk in any part of gaza he walked into the field that was a constant battleground and he did so at night, so none of the TV markings or the flag could be seen.

A soldier follows orders to fulfill a mission, they are not recklessly putting themselves and others at risk to push their agenda.

[Calanen]

Where the refugee camp ends the open swath of land that is philadelphia corridor starts. If you dont walk into the open of the corridor that separates the refugeeA soldier follows orders to fulfill a mission, they are not recklessly putting themselves and others at risk to push their agenda.

Ok - knowing all that - do you think that if you were the gunner looking down that sight - that you would have fired the APCs main gun on someone holding a white flag?

[LRPV]

Well, if it sounds perfectly reasonable to you to shoot some dude waving a white flag, having other civilians around himself, shouting "British Press, don´t shoot", than I can´t help you.

icebear, you saw it was night, the flag and people were not clearly visible. I cannot comment on the audability of the journalists shouts, nor can you as you were not there and neither of us know if the IDF vehicles were running. Similarly there has been no mention of the use of night-vision equipment by the IDF.

But one little reminder: He was not closing in fast, not running torwards and not aproaching the APC in a vehicle or any of that sh*t that would make one believe he tried to reach the APC in order to activate a bomb or something.

The fact that movement was slow is irrelevant. If you were infantry trained you would realize this rather than consider it a sign of innocence. If I stalk you at night, I sure as heck will not be rushing you.

In fact the APC was still well away from were they stood.
There was time to yell at him and command him to stop or to get his hands up or to sing the dixie or whatever.
Instead he was shot. Warning Shot? BS. The first shot missed - that´s pretty obvious since there is no difference between the shot before the one that killed the Brit and the bullets fired afterwards.

Are you aware of the IDF Rules of Engagement? What warning shot? This is Gaza at night, not an episode of NYPD Blue.

And it the case was as clear and easy to understand as you want to picture it, then why the lies from the IDF´s side?
If it was so easy to blame the journalist, the IDF wouldn´t pay a single buck in order to stop the inquiry.

Diplomatic pressure does not in itself constitute guilt or intentional wrong-doing. The payment was secured through diplomatic pressure.

No patrol iirc. The APC was standing there all the time, having its eyes on a house near the one the journalists had been in. That´s why they pulled this stunt in the first place.
There were palestinan millitans nearby and they wanted to get themselves and the familiy in their house out of there, before something happened.

For what its worth I don't see a cover up here. It's very easy to judge this situation from your office chair well after the fact and well away from danger. It's certainly not an outcome any reasonable person would desire, but the action taken by the journalists was laden with risk.

[LRPV]

Ok - knowing all that - do you think that if you were the gunner looking down that sight - that you would have fired the APCs main gun on someone holding a white flag?

Holy fire and brimstone batman! Are you a lawyer? That is about the most loaded question imagineable.

[LEGEND]

Ok - knowing all that - do you think that if you were the gunner looking down that sight - that you would have fired the APCs main gun on someone holding a white flag?

The way you describe it- no. But if I see movement towards my position at night, and I know couple of days ago my buddies got blown up by an anti tank missile, or by an IED planted by terrorists - absolutely.

[Antimatty]

at night a large tv camera might look very similar to a shoulder mounted anti-tank rocket launcher. not an rpg, but maybe something like a "dragon " ( or is it dragon fire?) or other wire guided missile.

i would want to take chances if i thought something like that was pointed at me.

[little icebear]

If you were infantry trained you would realize

Waving a flashlight and a white flag while yelling "Don´t shoot" was indeed not part of my basic training.
Maybe because of the demoralizing effect it has on the recruits since it indicates that we are loosing the war.

I don´t want to sound nosie or stubborn. I take the info availlable and form my opinion.
This must not be the ultimate truth but what strikes me, is that some folks who can provide no facts but only constructed possibilities try to argue that it was certainly not the fault of the soldier.
All indices availlable are supporting the estimation that one soldier f*cked up and that this reportes death was avoidable.
Yet, some folks rather like to blame the dead reporter for being there in the first place.

[LRPV]

Well icebear, I for one don't see your 'indices' as you do. Whilst the journalist was attempting something decent, the evacuation of children, was it appropriate or necessary at that time? Could they have waited till daylight? I don't know the facts aside from the imagery and topography, but what is available does not conclusively show the soldier/s as guilty of negligence or criminal misconduct.

As to the journo...no he didn't deserve to die, or even be wounded, but he must be held accountable for his actions. Vicarious liability?

[Calanen]

As to the journo...no he didn't deserve to die, or even be wounded, but he must be held accountable for his actions. Vicarious liability?

Textbook from an international law perspective - he walked outside, hands in the air showing he had no weapons - waving a flag of truce, and he got popped. No sudden movements..the camera man was far back, so even if someone thought the camera guy was holding a shoulder fired launcher - why shoot the guy with the flag?

I understand what LEGEND says - your friends have been killed, the jihadis would easily stoop to dressing up as journos and hold white flags because such deceptions mean nothing to them. But what I dont understand is, why the shooting? Wouldnt you shout at people to stay right where they are and shine a spotlight on them?

I know its easy to be the armchair quarterback, and if they were in a car speeding towards the checkpoint - id say, blow em away. But in the circumstances, its very hard to say that the shooting was justified.

[LRPV]

Calanen, as written earlier, we don't know if the flag was visible from the vehicles. There may well have been bad judgement on the IDF side, but there is nothing to assure that view apart from the personal perspective of those so inclined...

I'll go out on a limb here and say that in my view, given the environment and circumstances, the journalists (not just the dead one) chose a very dangerous route. Rather than head away from the border zone they moved into it, shots are fired but it's not their fault to any degree?

I wonder if they had reteated away from the border and HAMAS had engaged them would there be the same expectations of HAMAS ROE as the IDF?

[little icebear]

I wonder if they had reteated away from the border and HAMAS had engaged them would there be the same expectations of HAMAS ROE as the IDF?

Excuse me sir, but I believe the IDF has to live up to expectations that differ from those we´d apply to a terrorist organization...

[LRPV]

Excuse me sir, but I believe the IDF has to live up to expectations that differ from those we´d apply to a terrorist organization...

Yes, I would expect so....but I'm sure you haven't missed my point.

[LEGEND]

I know its easy to be the armchair quarterback, and if they were in a car speeding towards the checkpoint - id say, blow em away. But in the circumstances, its very hard to say that the shooting was justified.

Sane people dont walk in some parts of New York City at night, just like sane people don't go for a stroll at night in combat zone. We don't know what the soldier saw, i doubt it was possible to see the TV markings, and even if they were visible, in Gaza any types of noncombatant markings are irrelevant and we don't know if it was an aimed shot or an accidental hit from a warning shot.

[little icebear]

Yes, I would expect so....but I'm sure you haven't missed my point.

I think you imply that there is anti-israeli bias hidden behind the cririzism and maybe because of valid experiences you´ve made.
But overall that´s a pretty easy way out.

[LRPV]

I think you imply that there is anti-israeli bias hidden behind the cririzism and maybe because of valid experiences you´ve made.
But overall that´s a pretty easy way out.

What I am openly stating is that some of the wunderkind on this site froth at the mouth whenever they can attribute blame to the evil Zionists...

In this thread I am unsure because I am not as familiar with some members as I am with others. I don't know your politics icebear so I haven't made any conclusions. If Mr Nielson shows up you'll see what I consider blatant prejudice.

So far the thread is headed along rational lines, that is that we all have our opinions but none of us can state the facts on the night.

[little icebear]

In this thread I am unsure because I am not as familiar with some members as I am with others. I don't know your politics icebear so I haven't made any conclusions.

When it comes to politics I´ve nothing but trouble. Leftist are calling me a conservative and right-wingers blame me for my leftist views.
Pro-Zionists say I´m a PLO supporter in the closett while the Israel-is-an-Apartheid-State crowd sometimes suspects that I have a signed poster of Menachem Begin in my living room.

[BugHunt]

So the IDF shooter is protecting his men from a large hostile group in bad light with possible RPG, in a area where recent IDF deaths have taken place.

Doesnt sound like a "ill pop one of them and wait and see" type scenario to me.....

Sounds like "IMMEDIATE deadly threat".


Why only two shots? Why no followup shots? Why didnt he flip to automatic and hose the lot of them? Whatever happened to keep shooting until the threat is gone? There are still large numbers of RPG laden enemy out there!!!

I dont want to make out your scrabbling desperately for excuses, but your shooters actions dont seem to fit the circumstances your portraying.

[Moledet]

So the IDF shooter is protecting his men from a large hostile group in bad light with possible RPG, in a area where recent IDF deaths have taken place.

Doesnt sound like a "ill pop one of them and wait and see" type scenario to me.....

Sounds like "IMMEDIATE deadly threat".


Why only two shots? Why no followup shots? Why didnt he flip to automatic and hose the lot of them? Whatever happened to keep shooting until the threat is gone? There are still large numbers of RPG laden enemy out there!!!

I dont want to make out your scrabbling desperately for excuses, but your shooters actions dont seem to fit the circumstances your portraying.
There were more than two shots, he then started firing at the camera man and kept on firing later.
Overall, you don't use automatic in combat (even MGs fire bursts), it's not accurate and wastes ammo.

[alexz]

Its Israel fault because it allows known proffessional demonstrator (like those in Belien or those that rushed to help the terrorist in the Bet Lehem church) into the country in the first place. Not giving them a visa would have saved his life, or it wouldn't be Isael's if he is killed somewhere else.

[~Berdan]

On this time I don't agree with Israeli posters.This guy was shoot cold blood,nothing more nothing less.His family has every right to get the compensation,and for Israelis its a wake up call to make some order in this mess.

The soldier who shoot the journalist was not a Druze,he was a Bedouin soldier.Recruiting people from places without electricity and running water into hi-tec army,who can barely speak their own language,let alone Hebrew or English,who have very different norm of behavior then western culture,and straight into the army which is culturally worlds apart...

Giving those guys guns and teaching them how to shoot,and not much more,and then letting their cadets easy on the officer course,because they barely make it is not the way.Its good that this population wants to contribute and serve in the IDF,but some of them needs to make a quantum leap of 5 to 6 centuries ahead!

So whats the mixup when those soldiers later get caught smoking weed during operations or shooting people?

[Calanen]

I wonder if they had reteated away from the border and HAMAS had engaged them would there be the same expectations of HAMAS ROE as the IDF?


Of course not. Hamas are nutty terrorists and the IDF are a real army. Im not an apologist for Hamas by any stretch, and those guys do get a free pass in the western media.

I am just asking these questions to see whether there is any more to the story. At this stage we have that it is unwise to be in the Philadelphi Corridor at night, and perhaps the gunner could not see the flag.

Still however - while mistakes can happen in war - im hard pressed being convinced that this gunner needed to fire in this situation.

[Atlantic Friend]

I wonder if they had reteated away from the border and HAMAS had engaged them would there be the same expectations of HAMAS ROE as the IDF?

The ironic part is that, had I been the one to make that kind of parallel, i'd have been branded a rabid, frothing at the mouth antisemite just to suggest the IDF could be in any way comparable to Hamas...

Look, from the available information, the IDF soldier screwed up. Big time. And somebody was killed as a result. Welcome to the real world where soldiers and civilians of every nationality, every race and every creed are fallible, and where their mistakes can cause deaths and where they can be held accountable...

[Palmach]

, from the available information, the IDF soldier screwed up. Big time. And somebody was killed as a result. Welcome to the real world where soldiers and civilians of every nationality, every race and every creed are fallible, and where their mistakes can cause deaths and where they can be held accountable...

Maybe so, but there is a clear bias in the way the killing is treated compared to the US/allied actions in Iraq. There have been at least 16 jurnalists killed by the allied forces in the last 5 years - where is the outrage and persistant attempts to have US soldiers extradited?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I still think that soldier was stoned and that's why he shot up the journo.

Case closed.

[NimDod]

On this time I don't agree with Israeli posters.This guy was shoot cold blood,nothing more nothing less.His family has every right to get the compensation,and for Israelis its a wake up call to make some order in this mess.

The soldier who shoot the journalist was not a Druze,he was a Bedouin soldier.Recruiting people from places without electricity and running water into hi-tec army,who can barely speak their own language,let alone Hebrew or English,who have very different norm of behavior then western culture,and straight into the army which is culturally worlds apart...

Giving those guys guns and teaching them how to shoot,and not much more,and then letting their cadets easy on the officer course,because they barely make it is not the way.Its good that this population wants to contribute and serve in the IDF,but some of them needs to make a quantum leap of 5 to 6 centuries ahead!

So whats the mixup when those soldiers later get caught smoking weed during operations or shooting people?

with how many Beduins did you serv?
I had a friend from the Gadsar who finnished the officer's cource and no one made it easy for him.
I also served under a Beduin lieutenant-company commander who was a hell of a lot better as a person and an officer than his superior.
I lived next to Beduins in the Negev all my life and most, and things there are not as bad as you picture them.

thw case in this story is about a soldier and his non-officer commander in the which were guarding the D-9 dozers in Rafah, after a day of fighting when all of a sudden, in pitch black night they see a weird light 200 away from them.
if they had night vision equipment, there's no way they could have seen the "TV" sign or the flashlight, because when there's a strong source of light, you cant see jack besides of it.

so they shoot warning shots in the air, the suspicious figures keep coming closer and shout something that the soldiers cant understand (and even if they did know English, its too far away), they fire again - and hit.
I dont think that anyone who ever served in similar conditions would have acted differently.

what do you expect soldiers in a war zone to do when someone appraches them at a night, after warning shots have been fired?

[little icebear]

so they shoot warning shots in the air,

Wrong. There was one shot and that missed closely. Hardly a warning shot. The second one that followed shortly after ther first shot was fatal one.



the suspicious figures keep coming closer and shout something that the soldiers cant understand

They did not. They stopped.


(and even if they did know English, its too far away), they fire again - and hit.

100 m is not that far. Especially when everthing around is quiet. Don´t you learn English in school in Israel? It does not take a master degree in Anglophone Phylology to understand "Don´t shoot".

I´m sorry but apparently you did not even bother to read up about the incident. You just make up circumstances in order to apologize.

[NimDod]

Wrong. There was one shot and that missed closely. Hardly a warning shot. The second one that followed shortly after ther first shot was fatal one.
...
They did not. They stopped.
...
100 m is not that far. Especially when everthing around is quiet. Don´t you learn English in school in Israel? It does not take a master degree in Anglophone Phylology to understand "Don´t shoot".
...
I´m sorry but apparently you did not even bother to read up about the incident. You just make up circumstances in order to apologize.

I saw the video footage - they kept going after the first shot. the woman said something like "we are brittish jornalists" and a second later came the second shot.

and how can you tell that the first shot missed them closly? if it did, they would have felt it and take cover, wouldnt they?
and why did they approach the soldiers for the first place?
IDF's investigation showes that the shot was taken from a 200m distance. its very far for an assult rifle. even a 100m is a long distance at night.
I read about the incident when it happened and now also.
I also saw a small part of the film "Death In Gaza", but got sick of it in the middle.

I dont think that there should be any apologies, because I think that in that situation, the soldiers did that they should have done. I would have acted the same if I was there.

the whole incident became well-known just because it happened in Israel. if a reporter was killed in Iraq, Afganistan or any other part of the world no one would give a damn a week later.
My opinion is that this payment is shameful hush-money and a waste of my tax money. another price we have to pay for the Palestinian propeganda machine and its Brith press's cooperators.

[LRPV]

the whole incident became well-known just because it happened in Israel. if a reporter was killed in Iraq, Afganistan or any other part of the world no one would give a damn a week later.



My earlier point, exactly....

[little icebear]

You´ve seen the footage? Then why are you talking about several warning shots in the air?
Now it´s only because you claim they kept going.

Your answer pretty much resembles how the IDF behaved in that case. Their initial respose was that the reporter was caught in a cross-fire during a fight. A lie or a case of misunderstanding? It´s up to you to decide what to believe.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIOaCUhFk8

You may note that they do not move after the first shot broke.

For further reading:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/04/nmiller04.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/04/ixhome.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4872444.stm




I dont think that there should be any apologies, because I think that in that situation, the soldiers did that they should have done. I would have acted the same if I was there.



General Mandelblith seems to disagree.


In Tel Aviv, Brig. Gen. Avichai Mandelblith told members of Miller's family that the soldier would instead be disciplined for violating the rules of engagement and for changing his account of the incident. Mandelblith, the military's prosecutor-general, ordered the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to begin disciplinary proceedings. The IDF did not immediately disclose potential disciplinary measures.

"The findings of the military police show that an IDF lieutenant, the commanding officer of the IDF force at the site, allegedly fired his weapon in breach of IDF rules of engagement," the IDF said in an e-mail statement today. "

http://www.cpj.org/news/2005/Israel09mar05na.html




the whole incident became well-known just because it happened in Israel

And if the incident had not happened in Israel, you´d take the availlable information and conclude: Heck, this guy f*cked up, he should not be allowed to carry a gun when he can´t handle the responsibility.
But since he is a comrade or a countrymen, you´d defend him no matter what. Awesome.

[LRPV]

So in essence, icebear, regardless of the established facts you insist upon Israeli guilt...? It's got nothing to do with who is Israeli or otherwise, it's about a finding based upon facts. It has already been acknowledged that there may have been poor decision-making but no-one here knows enough facts to judge. I would hate to have you on my jury...I'd be swinging from an oak tree by sunset.

[little icebear]

So in essence, icebear, regardless of the established facts you insist upon Israeli guilt...?


First of all, there is no such thing as "Israeli guilt", only individual guilt. Furthermore I see few established facts.
What we know so far does not put this Lt. and the way the IDF responded afterwards exactly in good light.
However, there are enough facts and indices to start a serious inquiry of this incident which was prevented by a payment of 1.7 milions.



I would hate to have you on my jury...I'd be swinging from an oak tree by sunset.

Don´t worry. I´d prefer the firing squat... if I was a supporter of the Death Penalty.

[LRPV]

There was an inquiry, but because some parties weren't happy with the findings the issue was taken up by the journos lobby to the Brit government. It was a case of keep having a trial until you get a guilty verdict. In the end the Israelis took the plunge to reduce diplomatic damage. Think of it like this icebear, if I crash into your car, sue you in a civil court for my neck injuries and win, are you really guilty???

[little icebear]

It was a case of keep having a trial until you get a guilty verdict.

Possible but questionable. The critizism about the internal inquiry seems well funded.



In the end the Israelis took the plunge to reduce diplomatic damage.

One could just as easily assume, that the Israelis feared that the trial could have come to a justified guilty verdict, probably even exposing odd details about the way the IDF dealt with this incident...

Let me quote myself with my first posting in this thread.



There are two parties.

The Brits, who want to inquire whether this accident was avoidable and find out which Israeli was to trigger-happy and messed up big time so they can file charges against him.

Then there is the Israeli side. IDF soldiers are in active combat pretty much everyday and in an enviroment where colleratal damages are always part of the game.
They don´t want a public inquiry, fewest of all by a foreign court because of its predictable impact on the morale of the troopers.
What will another active IDF-Soldier think, when he sees a comrade put behind bars for killing a civilian during combat? He´ll think that it could have easily been himself.
The Israelis want to keep their blade sharp. That´s why they want to avoid seeing a soldier charged with murder or negligent killng and rather pay some money to keep it under the carpet.

[LRPV]

Possible but questionable. The critizism about the internal inquiry seems well funded.


Quoted for the truth.

[Atlantic Friend]

Maybe so, but there is a clear bias in the way the killing is treated compared to the US/allied actions in Iraq. There have been at least 16 jurnalists killed by the allied forces in the last 5 years - where is the outrage and persistant attempts to have US soldiers extradited?

Actually, there is no such bias here. When Iraqis (or Afghanis) are killed in dubious circumstances by Coalition forces, we see the exact same pattern. There are those who question the Coalition forces' line of action and those who'll say the soldiers were/are/will be right - both disregarding exact circumstances as befits their agenda.

You want to put your finger on the real difference between, this case and some Iraqi getting killed by US Marines, you take the nationality of the victim, not the one of the shooter. The British government has a lot more clout than the Iraqi or Afghan one, and when you kill one of their citizens, you cannot just push the body under the carpet and say "give me a break, it was a war zone, and are you supporting the troops, or are you condoning terrorism ?". You might also note that US public opinion is quite demanding about whether American troops' actions have been justified or proportionate. American reactions to Abu Ghraib and Haditha come to mind...

[DS73]

Where the refugee camp ends the open swath of land that is philadelphia corridor starts. If you dont walk into the open of the corridor that separates the refugee camp from the fence you wouldn't even be seen from the IDF positions. Maybe you dont realize what Gaza Strip is, you have to understand that Gaza Strip is one of the most violent places on the face of this world and has been so for years. In one incidence when an IDF APC got blown up, gazans were playing soccer with the head of an Israeli soldier whose remains got scattered around. And the corridor where the reporter got shot is not just any piece of gaza its a site of numerous attacks and gunfights. There are plenty of videos showing Israeli APCs and patrol jeeps being blown up in that corridor. The reporter didn't just walk in any part of gaza he walked into the field that was a constant battleground and he did so at night, so none of the TV markings or the flag could be seen.

A soldier follows orders to fulfill a mission, they are not recklessly putting themselves and others at risk to push their agenda.

If it was so dangerous, did israeli impose curfew? if they didn't and I've got impression that what was happened, the responsible general should pay. hmm 3 mln. $.

by itself the idea to approach armed guy in the battle zone at night is suicidal, with white flag, good beer whatever you choose. Darwin case.