How did the Brits do room clearing with their SLR's during the 70's-80's

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

With the introduction of assault rifles such as STG44, AK 47, m16 after lessons such as stalingrad and vietnam war etc....why did the brits bother to use the SEMI auto SLR?

although i'm a great fan of SLR and the SLR was more accurate and reliable than the SA80. but wasn't using a semi automatic and LONG rifle too unsuitable for modern combat (especially urban areas room clearing)?

i wonder how did the brits do room clearing with them, would the british army issue a few brits with sterlin SMG's (ww2 style lol) or the brits simply frag and clear rooms with SLR, or do they dump their SLR's and clear rooms with their brownings?

but i'm not sure if they did any though since falklands was a mountanous, vast plain and didn't know if the brits adopted the SA80 during northern ireland...

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It's a secret.
We could tell you but we'd have to kill you.

[Kachinjsh]

I am surely a dilettante in many aspects, but I believe urban combat did not become an important thing in military doctrines until lets say Iraq. Talking about the lessons learned in WWII or anything else, there have been a lot of times when things, that would seem obvious to us now, have been ignored.
I have done some room-to-room training with a Swedish made AK4 (H&K-G3 copy) back in the day. Sure, it'd have been a lot easier with an MP5, but I can't imagine normal interior of an average building, that would be so cramped, that I would have serious problems with an AK4 or an SLR (knowing that it's a similar weapon both in length and weight).

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Cold steel
They don't like it up 'em

[big_les]

They'd say "what's this self-loading nonsense? Not like the good old SMLE we had in my youth". And the room would clear...

[Dave242]

Put a matchstick under the sear and watch it go!

Dave

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

I am surely a dilettante in many aspects, but I believe urban combat did not become an important thing in military doctrines until lets say Iraq. Talking about the lessons learned in WWII or anything else, there have been a lot of times when things, that would seem obvious to us now, have been ignored.
I have done some room-to-room training with a Swedish made AK4 (H&K-G3 copy) back in the day. Sure, it'd have been a lot easier with an MP5, but I can't imagine normal interior of an average building, that would be so cramped, that I would have serious problems with an AK4 or an SLR (knowing that it's a similar weapon both in length and weight).

well SMG was dominant during WW2 after battles like stalingrad, that's why most armies adopted the assault rifle

[BrianT]

You do realize that most people hardly ever put there weapons on full auto, right? So other than the length of the weapon, which just makes it somewhat cumbersome, the fact that it's semi-auto effects nothing.

The L1A1 appears to be only 5 more inchs in length compared to the M16, which Marines are still using to this day to clear rooms.

[Beowulf]

This is the cancer that's killing mp.net

[Jurpula]

Nevermindhksö.

[Britboy]

Must've been a bit cramped with an SLR inside an FV432 and all...

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

an assault rifle is to be as accurate as a rifle in semi auto at long ranges but are also capable of fully automatic and short during room clearing

so why semi auto rifles for brits? but yet still venerated by old british soldiers over the SA80, which they call it a piece of sh**?

[Roy Batty]

This is the cancer that's killing mp.net

X2........

[Britboy]

Probably the same reason that you have some M14/M21s reintroduced to U.S. forces (Desig Marksman Rifle) - its got a reputation as a hard hitter; and as a good weapon at longer ranges.

Also, you'll find people nostalgic for old kit and the old days wherever you are, military or not. It's the reason I hit the clubs in my smoking jacket, ebony pipe and monocle.

[BrianT]

an assault rifle is to be as accurate as a rifle in semi auto at long ranges but are also capable of fully automatic and short during room clearing

so why semi auto rifles for brits? but yet still venerated by old british soldiers over the SA80, which they call it a piece of sh**?

Look. I already said people clear rooms using accurate, controlled groups. Usually you flip your weapon over to semi, fire, reaquire, fire, reaquire until the enemy goes down. It's very quick, but it's not full auto. You don't burst into a room going full auto like you see in the movies. Full auto is pretty much used for surpressive fire only.

[Roy Batty]

The SLR was 43 inches the C7A1 (a modern "assault rifle") is 39.5 inches. The 3.5 inch difference is not a huge issue. You enter the room with your barrel angled down and bring it up onto target once you have identified a bad guy.....same as it's always been done.

Christ...is it summer break from school already or what?

[Britboy]

-------------------

[oscarni]

Ah I remember the good old days ::smiles back to his merry days in Northern Ireland::

Room clearing has been a key bit of training for troops rotating into Northern Ireland, Tin Town etc but I did have it explained to me once, that if the soldiers A, couldn't be bothered or B, the risk was to great, they would get a MBT or battle taxi up to drive through the corner of the building :)

Ah the good old days before PC and human rights.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I wonder if the OP in this thread is 'special'?

[Winger]

I am surely a dilettante in many aspects, but I believe urban combat did not become an important thing in military doctrines until lets say Iraq.

Hue City? The Marine Corps learned from it and has provided training for it ever since.

[Winger]

Ah I remember the good old days ::smiles back to his merry days in Northern Ireland::

Room clearing has been a key bit of training for troops rotating into Northern Ireland, Tin Town etc but I did have it explained to me once, that if the soldiers A, couldn't be bothered or B, the risk was to great, they would get a MBT or battle taxi up to drive through the corner of the building :)

Ah the good old days before PC and human rights.

We still do it. Seen plenty a Stryker, Bradley and AAV punch holes. I guess we learned something from ya eh?

[Cdt.Hawkins]

Wasn't the S.L.R limited to single and semi so that scared consripts couldn't let off all their ammo in one go?

[boreal]

And you always can clean a room with a shiny new hand grenade, even I never had a problem with a Cetme C (G-3)

[Royal]

Jesus H Tapdancing Christ on a pushbike (sorry Chops).

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Oh and to answer the question - exactly the same way that they did in the 50s and 60s.

[asch]

And you always can clean a room with a shiny new hand grenade, even I never had a problem with a Cetme C (G-3)

hehe, that's really a winner :)

[Buckeye67]

How did the Redcoats do room clearing with their Long Land Pattern Muskets (1st Model Brown Bess) during the French & Indian War?

[Britboy]

If its any help to the original poster, I occasionally clear rooms using flatulence.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

If its any help to the original poster, I occasionally clear rooms using flatulence.


Lightweight.

I can clear a room with my withering sarcasm :)

[dave law]

Ah I remember the good old days ::smiles back to his merry days in Northern Ireland::

Room clearing has been a key bit of training for troops rotating into Northern Ireland, Tin Town etc but I did have it explained to me once, that if the soldiers A, couldn't be bothered or B, the risk was to great, they would get a MBT or battle taxi up to drive through the corner of the building :)

Ah the good old days before PC and human rights.



your personal info says otherwise "age 24"

MBT ay

[Calanen]

It's a secret.
We could tell you but we'd have to kill you.

Can we please tell him then?

[Calanen]

Ah I remember the good old days ::smiles back to his merry days in Northern Ireland::


You are barely old enough to have watched Brad Pitt in the Devil's Own.

[oscarni]

your personal info says otherwise "age 24"

MBT ay

::nods:: I was hoping that people would pick up on my Sarcasm :) Or is the Good old days restricted to the more "mature" folks :)

[sexyhamburger]

psh screw SLR's and all that junk. Forget even the Brits with muskets! The real question is how did the Spartans do room clearing with spears!?

[Richard W]

Back in the Dark Ages I was a FIBUA (Fighting In Built Up Areas) instructor. We still had the M 14. I think it was in the same class as the SLR. (about 44 inches long, 9.5 lbs fired the 7.62 x 51 mm round).

We still had WWII veterans. They emphasized three things:

1) Avoid going in buildings. Try to collapse them. Set them on fire. And use the smoke to conceal your next move.

2) If you had to enter a building always put in HE first into every room, hallway and broom closet. (We practiced ad nauseam throwing frags and satchel charges through windows.) Bring the MG's into the building. Fire through all interior walls before you enter a room. Plan for a LOT of ammo bearers.

3) Room entry with the M14. Butt was on the pistol belt. Muzzle was up at eye level (eyes - muzzle - target). As the lead guy entered the room he either snapped the butt into his shoulder, if it was a big room, or up under his armpit, and thus radically reducing the length, if it was a small room.

4) We were provisionally issued with what we called the "echo" model of the M14. (I think the proper designation was M14A!). It had an auto capability, a pistol grip and the forward hand grip for the non-firing hand. We stripped off the bipod, hinged shoulder support and flash suppressor to keep the weight down. I thought it was a great and controllable weapon.

We trained with I think the Welsh Guards who had the SLR. They seemed to have similar techniques.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Richard

[lightfire]

In our army, people still do clear room with AK4s (similar to SLRs) and M-16. And somehow the do it. I personally found it quite clumsy, but nevertheless normal enough. people used to do it, they keep doing it and will do it.

As for the british, someone dig that photo of brits carrying Sterlings in 1st Gulf War..

[rgjbloke]

Must've been a bit cramped with an SLR inside an FV432 and all...

Yes but the SLR was your best mate.



Wasn't the S.L.R limited to single and semi so that scared consripts couldn't let off all their ammo in one go?

Is this serious???

[Backwoodshunter]

How did the Redcoats do room clearing with their Long Land Pattern Muskets (1st Model Brown Bess) during the French & Indian War?

Hatchets and long knives, Mel Gibson style.

[vor033]

With the introduction of assault rifles such as STG44, AK 47, m16 after lessons such as stalingrad and vietnam war etc....why did the brits bother to use the SEMI auto SLR?

although i'm a great fan of SLR and the SLR was more accurate and reliable than the SA80. but wasn't using a semi automatic and LONG rifle too unsuitable for modern combat (especially urban areas room clearing)?

i wonder how did the brits do room clearing with them, would the british army issue a few brits with sterlin SMG's (ww2 style lol) or the brits simply frag and clear rooms with SLR, or do they dump their SLR's and clear rooms with their brownings?

but i'm not sure if they did any though since falklands was a mountanous, vast plain and didn't know if the brits adopted the SA80 during northern ireland...

Hi Mate,

At the end of WW2 we brits put all our experience into a new rifle firing a .280 round it was a slective fire bullpup assault rifle with attached optics and was by all accounts a superb bit of kit and although we officially adopted it in i think 1948 the USA moaned as they wanted all NATO forces to adopt 7.62mm and the best rifle around was the FN FAL which after modification we adopted.

And when all you are issued with is a semi auto battle rifle you base you rooom clearing tactics around it, and as the rifle is narrow very easy to point and virtually unbreakable it works really well in FIBUA type assaults with the advantage of the 7.62mm round being able to punch through walls etc.

All in all a superb battle rifle but its does make you think as to what might have been if we had been using the EM2 since the late 40's or early 50's !!!

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

Hi Mate,

At the end of WW2 we brits put all our experience into a new rifle firing a .280 round it was a slective fire bullpup assault rifle with attached optics and was by all accounts a superb bit of kit and although we officially adopted it in i think 1948 the USA moaned as they wanted all NATO forces to adopt 7.62mm and the best rifle around was the FN FAL which after modification we adopted.

And when all you are issued with is a semi auto battle rifle you base you rooom clearing tactics around it, and as the rifle is narrow very easy to point and virtually unbreakable it works really well in FIBUA type assaults with the advantage of the 7.62mm round being able to punch through walls etc.

All in all a superb battle rifle but its does make you think as to what might have been if we had been using the EM2 since the late 40's or early 50's !!!

finally a serious answer, thanks,

i know setting their FAL's to semi are just for disciplinary purpose and british marksmanship (and probably because of the poor labour govt to afford ammunition lol), but i think having a long semi auto SLR is just too awkward for room clearing

i've heard that brits have SMG's named sterling during the cold war era, what kind of british troops were issued with it? my uncle was in the hong kong military police and he had fired the sterling and said it was crap.....lol why did the brits bother to design a side magazine anyway after the bad reputation of the sten gun...

[GazB]

i know setting their FAL's to semi are just for disciplinary purpose and british marksmanship (and probably because of the poor labour govt to afford ammunition lol), but i think having a long semi auto SLR is just too awkward for room clearing

The purpose of not having full auto rifles is to prevent units out firing their supply columns capacity to supply them. Also full auto fire is very wasteful and not actually effective in most situations... except in movies. Look at the untrained in Africa and elsewhere on TV and you will see burst fire from the hip at long range targets. Look at any properly trained peacekeepers in the same region and you will see careful aimed fire. There is a reason the casualty figures in Somalia during the "Blackhawk down" incident were the way they were. It is considered a failure by many but also shows the difference between spray and pray (you hit something) and careful aimed fire... both sides were in extreme danger of being killed yet one side seemed to hit their targets and the other side seem to have only hit occasionally.

(No disrespect meant to anyone with this post)

[Britboy]

'Semi automatic just for disciplinary purpose' is rubbish, the IW, replacement to the SLR, is capable of full automatic fire, does that mean people loose off a whole magazine at a time? No! You may as well say that's why theres a 3-round burst setting on M16 series rifles. Troops know better than anyone that theres no use wasting all your ammunition - they are the ones relying on it for defending themselves more often than not!

Single shots are just more useful than fully automatic fire for the great majority of the time. It means you might actually hit something more than 20m away and with more than the first 2 rounds, and you might actually still have some rounds left to go looking for something else to kill. Even moreso I should think with a 7.62mm rifle, as the recoil would be higher and the amount of ammunition carried lower.

Yes there are a few occasions when you may need bursts, and the IW has that capability, but back in the day I understand that the SMG fulfilled that role. IW replaced both SLR and SMG (I think!) so it can be used automatically or with single shots.

As for unusually mounted magazines being crap in your opinion, the Aussies thought enough of the Owen guns to continue using them for ages (Vietnam, right) and in some pretty harsh environments, didn't they?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

As for unusually mounted magazines being crap in your opinion, the Aussies thought enough of the Owen guns to continue using them for ages (Vietnam, right) and in some pretty harsh environments, didn't they?

In very harsh environments, where its difficult to keep stuff clean I can imagine having mags where the feed is at least partially assisted by gravity is a good idea.

[EsoognomEhT]

1) Avoid going in buildings. Try to collapse them. Set them on fire. And use the smoke to conceal your next move.

I like the sound of this one.

Army Doctrine and Training News here I come!

[asch]

finally a serious answer, thanks
serious question = serious answer. simple as that.

[Corrupt]

Is this serious???

I severely hope he isn't because in the Falklands the British entirely volunteer Army has Semi SLR's faced Argentine conscripts with full automatic versions. It was Semi because a "light" weapon such as an SLR (lets face it its not a GPMG) while long ranged and accurate due to its 7.62 round, was only accurate for about the first two rounds of automatic fire, similar to the M14 hence that being switched to Semi only too. Besides a little bit of skill with a matchstick and you had a fully auto rifle again. That or you nicked one from the Argies as many did

As to room clearing, as many others have said, we didnt clear many rooms (Falklands etc didnt have too much urban fighting) and those we did you would do it just as you would now, rifle down, snap it up to the shoulder or under arm and give the guy 2-3 quick trigger pulls to the chest.

As to the side loading magazines, sterlings etc see http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/British_Military_Procurement_Mysteries

[Britboy]

That or you nicked one from the Argies as many did...


That must've been a godsend, esp with the loss of stores ships and helos for resupply. Low on ammunition? Broke your SLR for some reason? No problems.

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but now I'm wondering if you could get the thinnest of barrel inserts and some modification to the magazine well and innards to let you fire 5.45 out of a rifle 5.56... Hmmm unlikely I'm guessing...

Probably impossible and you would just end up carrying the AK or whatever as weapon no.2 anyway instead... But I wonder if there are rifles designed to swap barrels and innards in the field to let you use either 9mm, 5.56, 7.62 AK, 7.62 NATO etc etc... hmmmmm...

Regards
BB

[Dave242]

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but now I'm wondering if you could get the thinnest of barrel inserts and some modification to the magazine well and innards to let you fire 5.45 out of a rifle 5.56... Hmmm unlikely I'm guessing...

Probably impossible and you would just end up carrying the AK or whatever as weapon no.2 anyway instead... But I wonder if there are rifles designed to swap barrels and innards in the field to let you use either 9mm, 5.56, 7.62 AK, 7.62 NATO etc etc... hmmmmm...

Regards
BB

Check out the FN SCAR at http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm

Dave

[a_very_ex_STAB]

That must've been a godsend, esp with the loss of stores ships and helos for resupply. Low on ammunition? Broke your SLR for some reason? No problems.

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but now I'm wondering if you could get the thinnest of barrel inserts and some modification to the magazine well and innards to let you fire 5.45 out of a rifle 5.56... Hmmm unlikely I'm guessing...

Probably impossible and you would just end up carrying the AK or whatever as weapon no.2 anyway instead... But I wonder if there are rifles designed to swap barrels and innards in the field to let you use either 9mm, 5.56, 7.62 AK, 7.62 NATO etc etc... hmmmmm...

Regards
BB

Why would you want to carry different sets of barrels and mags around when you could just sling your issue weapon on your back and pick up another one.

[Roy Batty]

Why would you want to carry different sets of barrels and mags around when you could just sling your issue weapon on your back and pick up another one.

How dare you try to derail this pathetic, puddle of dog's vomit of a thread with logic Sir?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

How dare you try to derail this pathetic, puddle of dog's vomit of a thread with logic Sir?

Sorry I won't let it happen again.

[Britboy]

Ha, yeh, s'pose that is the way to go...
Thought the Steyr could do something like that though?
Regards
BB

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Ha, yeh, s'pose that is the way to go...
Thought the Steyr could do something like that though?
Regards
BB

I could be wrong but I think some AR-type rifles can be swapped fairly quickly from 5.56mm to 6.8mm SPC but I'm not sure it's something you'd want to do in a battle.

Or I could be talking bollox.

[Roy Batty]

Why would you want to carry different sets of barrels and mags around when you could just sling your issue weapon on your back and pick up another one.

Stab is right. Thats why we do foreign weapons classes. We learn to use them, strip them ect.

[Britboy]

Ah, good stuff. I haven't been through pre-tour trg or anything so I haven't had any experience with foreign weapons. Is it a case of 'how to make safe' or do you actually go through all the drills, or even go to the ranges with them?

Hmm I can imagine an RPG tucked under my daysack lid would look very natty...p-)

[Roy Batty]

We do everything from "make safe" to live fire on the AKs but just handleing drills on the RPGs and MGs.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

serious question = serious answer. simple as that.

my question was a serious one.....wasn't that why the M-14 was out of service? too long + heavy + incapable of full auto with a reasonable accuracy that makes the US suffer during the early stages of vietnam war

i've heard many british troops from the older generations whines about how crappy the SA80 is and how they wanted the SLR back, I know SLR is more reliable and has more stopping power than the SA80, but it's too long and SEMI for room clearing!

[Roy Batty]

......, but it's too long and SEMI for room clearing!

We still learn room clearing in semi auto and with C7s! We almost never fire our weapons on FA. I have fired FA twice in the last 6 years.

[Fade]

We still learn room clearing in semi auto and with C7s! We almost never fire our weapons on FA. I have fired FA twice in the last 6 years.
Well, thats no fun. Whatever happened to sprayin' and prayin'? ;-)

[Roy Batty]

Well, thats no fun. Whatever happened to sprayin' and prayin'? ;-)

Thats what the grenades are for. :lol:

[Britboy]

Well the L85A2 hasnt got a bad feedback from the ongoing commitments, if it was so unreliable and generally cack, don't you think there'd be more consternation and solutions seeing as they're being used day-in-day-out?

Lots of people remember the media getting into a furore years ago about the previous mark of weapons, and automatically think "SA80 = crap". Why is that? When the M16 first entered service it had some major reliability dramas until they instituted new cleaning procedures and made some modifications. Now it is possibly the best known assault rifle and widely used. The current models dont have the reputation of the first ones, so why the persistence with the SA80 beliefs?

As for stopping power, yes I wouldn't like to be hit by a 7.62, but are you telling me you wouldn't mind being hit by a 5.56?? The SA80 is bullpup, so we can have short overall length without compromising barrel length, effects etc etc like the M4 may.

Ever thought that when clearing rooms you may not want to spray the whole place and suffer the ricochets/have rounds pass through the walls killing your mates/civvies on the other side?

I'll let others comment on the M14 vs M16 issue, but I believe it was adopted by USAF security police, then to Vietnamese troops as it was lighter and better suited for their usually smaller lighter physique and hot humid conditions on foot they worked in, and then the US 'liked it' and the amount of ammo that could be carried and ended up adopting it over the M14.

[scabstermooch]

Look. I already said people clear rooms using accurate, controlled groups. Usually you flip your weapon over to semi, fire, reaquire, fire, reaquire until the enemy goes down. It's very quick, but it's not full auto. You don't burst into a room going full auto like you see in the movies. Full auto is pretty much used for surpressive fire only.

So you are saying people do not clear rooms using rifles on automatic mode.

Really?!

[Rancid]

When we did room cleaning, we did it with some polish, rags and a bumper with wax, you'd put a GS blanket under the bumper at the end to get a high shine on the floor.

Hope this helps.

[scabstermooch]

When we did room cleaning, we did it with some polish, rags and a bumper with wax, you'd put a GS blanket under the bumper at the end to get a high shine on the floor.

Hope this helps.

Lucky you. At least you had eastern europeans to help you!

All I got was a tooth brush, some newspapers and a Sergeant wearing white gloves.

Some people dunno their born etc etc.

Back on topic, I think the Brits has SMGs to help them a little. I personally think it is a bad idea to do room clearing on semi but that is just me. Of course if things change if there are other blokes in the house you don't want to shoot but in general, auto is clearly better - and that was how I was taught!

[BrianT]

my question was a serious one.....wasn't that why the M-14 was out of service? too long + heavy + incapable of full auto with a reasonable accuracy that makes the US suffer during the early stages of vietnam war

i've heard many british troops from the older generations whines about how crappy the SA80 is and how they wanted the SLR back, I know SLR is more reliable and has more stopping power than the SA80, but it's too long and SEMI for room clearing!
You're not even trying to ask a question. You just stated that it's too long and 'SEMI' to clear rooms with.

Look kid, give me a long rifle musket and one other guy to check the opposite corner and I can clear a room. Is it less than ideal? Roger. Is it impossible? Negative.


Lucky you. At least you had eastern europeans to help you!

All I got was a tooth brush, some newspapers and a Sergeant wearing white gloves.

Some people dunno their born etc etc.

Back on topic, I think the Brits has SMGs to help them a little. I personally think it is a bad idea to do room clearing on semi but that is just me. Of course if things change if there are other blokes in the house you don't want to shoot but in general, auto is clearly better - and that was how I was taught!
Where were you taught at? I can tell you right now, even Delta comes in using semi. Are they quick on the trigger? Yes.

[Roy Batty]

Look kid, give me a long rifle musket and one other guy to check the opposite corner and I can clear a room. Is it less than ideal? Roger. Is it impossible? Negative.

Well said Brian.

[scabstermooch]

You're not even trying to ask a question. You just stated that it's too long and 'SEMI' to clear rooms with.

Look kid, give me a long rifle musket and one other guy to check the opposite corner and I can clear a room. Is it less than ideal? Roger. Is it impossible? Negative.


Where were you taught at? I can tell you right now, even Delta comes in using semi. Are they quick on the trigger? Yes.


I genuinely am surprised you do not think using auto to clear rooms is a legitimate technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxw8pY8ZR7w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XlGgN7JL-4

Shows the british army clearing rooms in auto during FIBUA.

As you can see, there is more than one way of doing things. You speak in absolutes when there are none. The topic is about how the British Army cleared rooms with an SLR, a legitimate question. I do not think it should have attracted the level of ridicule it has.

edit:

Ah having done some quick reading here (http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/29-3593/page2.aspx) in a bid to understand the other POV, I see the US army has apparently stopped using automatic fire in room clearings and has not done so for a while. That would explain the level of conviction and puzzlement displayed here.

[Britboy]

As an aside, thats a great 2nd clip there. Didn't know of the Royal Gib Regt before...

BB

[BrianT]

I'm not sure how old those videos are, but fragging rooms and then going full auto as you hop up or climb through a window with one hand on the gun would definitely be unacceptable in our Army. Too many civilians in theater. At one point the guy had his weapon against the window sill side ways and was just sweeping across the room. Interesting technique. We're a bit more into precision.

[vor033]

finally a serious answer, thanks,

i know setting their FAL's to semi are just for disciplinary purpose and british marksmanship (and probably because of the poor labour govt to afford ammunition lol), but i think having a long semi auto SLR is just too awkward for room clearing

i've heard that brits have SMG's named sterling during the cold war era, what kind of british troops were issued with it? my uncle was in the hong kong military police and he had fired the sterling and said it was crap.....lol why did the brits bother to design a side magazine anyway after the bad reputation of the sten gun...

Hi Mate,

I think only people such as storemen,RMP,signals, drivers etc were issued the Stirling SMG in any numbers though i think some infantry units isssued it to Officers and Senior NCO's but not sure. The SMG was never really a general issue weapon and as far as i am aware i dont think any specific tactics were ever worked out for the use of SMG type weapons in house clearing (FIBUA) except by Special Forces though i might be wrong.

[scabstermooch]

I'm not sure how old those videos are, but fragging rooms and then going full auto as you hop up or climb through a window with one hand on the gun would definitely be unacceptable in our Army. Too many civilians in theater. At one point the guy had his weapon against the window sill side ways and was just sweeping across the room. Interesting technique. We're a bit more into precision.

Using a grenade followed by a burst of automatic fire is to suppress anyone inside thereby allowing more time to enter into the room. Those are standard fibua techniques.

In the link (to another forum) I posted above, the same concerns were voiced. I guess it is a matter of mindset coupled with the fact that recent ops involve 'low-intensity conflicts' instead of conventional warfare.

[Roy Batty]

Using a grenade followed by a burst of automatic fire is to suppress anyone inside thereby allowing more time to enter into the room. Those are standard fibua techniques.



Those were standard FIBUA techniques. Thats no longer the way it is taught (at least not here). The evolution of MOUT (or FISH: Fighting In Someones House) I guess.

[Britboy]

I haven't done FIBUA in a little while, and I haven't done OPTAG or been to the Middle East. But for what its worth, I'm willing to bet its 'horses for courses'.

I.e. you train to fight a high intensity war, so you train as if you were taking a fully defended house in a massive conflict. For arguments sake, as if you were taking a house back off the Soviets in W Germany... Yes I know that particular conflict will not happen, but its that kind of level of conflict and violence in general war that the forces have to be ready for - hence still having tanks, arty etc etc.

HOWEVER

Due to the nature of the current commitments, COIN operations, civilians and so on, it must get 'toned down' so that we do continue to carry out the mission but without grenading and shooting civvies by mistake. Hence single shots, no grenades, and so on.

Lets face it if you're taking a building from an enemy army in general war, grenades and lots of fire are likely to end up being used. But if you are carrying out COIN in an area with lots of civvies, another approach is needed.

So prepare and train generally for a big nasty war (worst case scenario); then tone down or alter this to the actual situ. I seem to remember reading a phrase from a little while ago saying you can prepare for a big war and still carry out little interventions, but it is impossible to prepare for only little interventions and then to be able to carry out a big war. Makes sense to me.

After all, there were recruits in those clips, they are probably getting their first taste of FIBUA or a refresher after quite a period of time (seems RGR are TA based), so they need GENERAL techniques. Not the SPECIFIC techniques that are applicable in Iraq at the moment, these are taught pre-tour, right? And techniques that may be the way to go in a COIN operation or police action or whatever else, could possibly be dangerously wrong in a big General War situ...

Or have I got it all wrong and am talking out of my arse??
BB

[BrianT]

If it was high intensity, I'd imagine we'd call in an airstrike. Or if that was somehow unavailable, I'd imagine My Deuce would be involved. Or at least M240, which would uttlery destroy a structure like that. After people stopped shooting out of it, I'd send in my assault who would still come in probably through the front door after fragging the entry way rather than the window with weapons at semi-auto. That's just from an American perspective.

[Britboy]

Hmm MGs might work on breezeblocks, granted, but on compound walls in Afg? I've not been there, so don't quote me, but was under the impression that it was v difficult to breach walls there, hence a lot of explosives being used - so I'm not sure what the effect of MGs would be. As well as you'd have to just spray the whole structure...

Surely the doors are a little suspect. If they are the only way in, then I get that entirely. But I wonder how many doors feature nasty surprises, whether you've used a grenade or not.

[California Joe]

Using a grenade followed by a burst of automatic fire is to suppress anyone inside thereby allowing more time to enter into the room. Those are standard fibua techniques.

In the link (to another forum) I posted above, the same concerns were voiced. I guess it is a matter of mindset coupled with the fact that recent ops involve 'low-intensity conflicts' instead of conventional warfare.

Have you actually ever cleared a room? Cause it kinda sounds like your experience level is limited to reading and videos...If I'm incorrect then I apologize, but if you are just some gobby little knob that plays Rainbow Six, STFU.

[BrianT]

Oh I thought we were talking about a hypothetical high intensity war in W. Germany. I know the .50 cal will definitely put holes in structures over there(Afghanistan). Probably not 7.62. I haven't seen haji ****y trap a door before, but then again usually they don't see us coming.

I just don't see it being practical to try to pop one guy up in a window at a time. Takes too long to get in. You got one guy trying to hold a room by himself in a house possibly full of baddies. Plus it's just plain awkward trying to pull security and climb up in the window. I just don't buy the spraying the room thing. Keep it simple. Assault the door.

[scabstermooch]

Have you actually ever cleared a room? Cause it kinda sounds like your experience level is limited to reading and videos...If I'm incorrect then I apologize, but if you are just some gobby little knob that plays Rainbow Six, STFU.

uh-huh...

Again, there are many ways of doing things. You seem somehow offended that other people may do things differently...I am not sure why.

Oh well. As long as you are happy.

[scabstermooch]

Oh I thought we were talking about a hypothetical high intensity war in W. Germany. I know the .50 cal will definitely put holes in structures over there(Afghanistan). Probably not 7.62. I haven't seen haji ****y trap a door before, but then again usually they don't see us coming.

I just don't see it being practical to try to pop one guy up in a window at a time. Takes too long to get in. You got one guy trying to hold a room by himself in a house possibly full of baddies. Plus it's just plain awkward trying to pull security and climb up in the window. I just don't buy the spraying the room thing. Keep it simple. Assault the door.

I was never told why we practiced going in through windows in addition to going through doorways but I suppose its about being prepared. If you had to go in through the window, I would do it the way I was shown: IE like in the video!

The drill for going through the door is roughly the same btw: grenade in, boom, two guys through the door.

[California Joe]

uh-huh what?

I almost shot a full length mirror once because I came around a corner and saw me pointing a gun at me.

I get offended when, as usual, the opinions of people that have read books and watched YouTube are offered up as if they had the same merit as the opinions of people that have actually been there and done that. Like I said, if that doesn't apply to you then it was not intended for you.

[Roy Batty]

Nine banger in the door and then followed bythe brick or stack...weapons on select fire.

[scabstermooch]

uh-huh what?

I almost shot a full length mirror once because I came around a corner and saw me pointing a gun at me.

I get offended when, as usual, the opinions of people that have read books and watched YouTube are offered up as if they had the same merit as the opinions of people that have actually been there and done that.

I agree with you. Therefore, Americans should not comment on a topic about British Army fibua tactics?

[Buckeye67]

I agree with you. Therefore, Americans should not comment on a topic about British Army fibua tactics?

How 'bout answering the man's question.

[scabstermooch]

How 'bout answering the man's question.

His question is have I cleared a room before? Yes. I was taught FIbua wasn't I?

Edit: I have never fired a weapon in anger though.

[Britboy]

I suppose we could umm and ahh all day about what may or may not be the best or not-so-good way to do things. At the end of the day, it's going to be the call of the junior commander on the ground. I suppose the best thing we can do in training is practice for a variety of approaches so that he can decide on the best one to take (as opposed to the only one training allows for). The situation could change rapidly from a relatively peaceful one to a v nasty one, and buildings and villages can vary massively, so I suppose its pointless having a dogmatic 'one size fits all' view of this, and better to let the bloke with the best view (i.e. the one there) act as he sees fit.

On a personal note, it always used to piss me off when I was launched into a room by my mates chucking me through the window, only to find some bastard had filled it full of wire... Haha hilarious :(

[Calanen]

His question is have I cleared a room before? Yes. I was taught FIbua wasn't I?

Edit: I have never fired a weapon in anger though.

By whom, and in what capacity?

[scabstermooch]

By whom, and in what capacity?

I was taught FIBUA in the Singapore Infantry.

[Buckeye67]

His question is have I cleared a room before? Yes. I was taught FIbua wasn't I?

When you post silly crap like "I think the brits has SMGs to help", you sound like a Chairborne Counterstrike Commando.

I suggest winding your neck in.

While I'm here, I fixed this one for you too:


Therefore, Singapore Infantry should not comment on a topic about British or American Army fibua tactics?

[scabstermooch]

When you post silly crap like "I think the brits has SMGs to help", you sound like a Chairborne Counterstrike Commando.

I suggest winding your neck in.

I disagree.

[scabstermooch]

When you post silly crap like "I think the brits has SMGs to help", you sound like a Chairborne Counterstrike Commando.

I suggest winding your neck in.

While I'm here, I fixed this one for you too:

Wrong. The Singapore Army uses British Army tactics, esp where FIBUA is concerned. We do FOFO as well.

[Roy Batty]

My last MOUT/FIBUA training was at least a month or two ago so I may be out of date.....http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1420/smsalutene4.gif

[Calanen]

I was taught FIBUA in the Singapore Infantry.

During your national service?

[Buckeye67]

I disagree.

and I predict your stay here will be a short one.

[Britboy]

It bloody annoys me when people are denigrated on here for just holding a different point of view. Yes SM is posting on a subject about British tactics, he has done military service, Singapore has British heritage and still sends its young officers to British officer training, so there is relevance.

Meanwhile many other nationalities have posted (how many Americans have been taught by British FIBUA instructors here?), and no one 'has a go' and tells them to STFU. I do not see what SM has said that is so provocative, except his views are outside those of 'the herd', and for that he is insulted?

I know, why don't we all just agree and backslap each other and tell each other how great we are, wouldnt that be educational and fun?

Honestly, its called debate, and the fact that debates here often degenerate into 'whats your credentials vs my credentials', or just plain insults, doesnt bode well at all.

Regards

BB

[Buckeye67]

It isn't about what he's saying, it's that he's saying it like a complete ****.

[Britboy]

How so? He just presented the fact that he was taught differently to the majority of people posting here. There was nothing provocative or outlandish in any of it as far as I can see, it's not like he said go in with 2 pistols like in a John Woo film is it?

He also didnt start flinging insults around or having a go at other's credentials. Others did that, and thats when it got nasty.

Sometimes other people do have their own ideas, are taught differently, and can be learnt from. Its not as if he was laying down the law and its not as if he has no experience. So lets not have a go at anyone who doesnt just reinforce the previous guy's view.


BB

[scabstermooch]

Thanks Britboy. How have I said it like a ****?

I saw the topic starter being ridiculed about what I felt was a legitimate question and decided to weigh in. The general thrust of the posts before mine was that one never clears room with automatic fire. I pointed out that I was taught to use automatic fire and provided evidence that the British Army still teaches its recruits to use automatic fire.

Then people started having a go, again seemingly because no one believed that anyone would use automatic fire to clear a room.

The level of dogmatic thinking here is quite extreme.

[California Joe]

Britboy, I agree. As a Moderator I sometimes question the veracity of posters. That's all. Frankly, I've been here too long and have seen far too many threads descend into some sort of weird bizzarro world where 16 year old kids tell serving soldiers how it should be done. I was merely checking. It's my job. Trouble is, anyone can claim to be anything on the net and sometimes people resent being questioned. Tough. My intent is to make sure that the information being posted is correct, from people that know what they're talking about. By all means carry on.

[Buckeye67]

First time he pops up in the thread he starts questioning a known BTDT. Not "Hi, I was in the infantry in Singapore and we trained this way..." - which would have 1) established that he might have some credible input and 2) isn't a snarky ass comment to someone who's really done this stuff.

His next post makes some nebulous allusion to having had a "sergeant" and then he goes on to telling people what he thinks the brits have to "help them out". Again, this does absolutely zero to establish any sort of credibility.

In his third post, he again makes no mention of his military service and/or training. He again makes a ****ty ass comment, and then posts youtube videos. Much like airsofters who veer out of their lane and start gobbing off about crap they know nothing about.

His fourth post he's again telling a known BTDT what "standard FIBUA" techniques are - not "this is how we did in in the infantry in Singapore"... and he still makes no mention whatsoever as to what his qualifications for making such a wide-sweeping generalization are.

Then he's corrected by a known CF soldier that his "standard techniques" are out of date. We still have no indication from scabmeister what his quals are, other than having watched a youtube video.

That's when CJ - a former LEO and moderator of this forum, asks him what his qualifications are - which AGAIN we have NO IDEA what they might be. I mean hell, I masturbate quite frequently to Anna Kournikova photos, but that sure as hell don't make me a tennis player.

After being asked what his qualifications might be, he still makes no mention of any military service - no, he makes a ****ty comment to a moderator. It isn't until I asked him to answer CJ's question that he finally mentions something specific about his military service.

...and you think that we're the ones being unreasonable?

as long as that makes you happy. :roll:

[Calanen]

Everyone in Singapore has to do national service, and the guy is apparently from Singapore. That's a lot closer than most of the people (including me) on the internetz are ever going to get to real military service.

In terms of hiring him as an expert witness on room clearing for a trial however, I probably wouldnt choose a former nasho.

[Britboy]

What he called standard FIBUA techniques are just that, FIBUA is a British (and Commonwealth too it'd seem) doctrinal term. He didn't say MOUT did he? Moreover, they are standard techniques for him and his military - much as your standard techniques are for you and your militaries. Its not as if he said 'Americans should do it this way'. The term 'standard' also referred to the fact that these techniques were for general use - for general war. Techniques used in particular situations, like COIN ops with civvies around, may have to be adapted.

I don't see how the fact other people have prior service make his contentions any less valid. Given that you don't have to have been in the forces to get on MP.net, the fact SM has served if anything means he is one of the more relevant members on here. I agree with CJ that he needs to vet these threads so that it doesnt all go Pete Tong, but SM has served.

Reduced to the basics, SM simply said that automatic fire does have a role in clearing rooms. He then posted some links that displayed that. I have no doubt now that American doctrine advocates single shots, but the fact is you can employ automatic fire, other doctrines and other people do.

Well thats enough argument for me. Shall we return to the topic, if we're all done now?

[BrianT]

Well, regardless, I learned something new. So are the British still going 'Hollywood' through windows?:)

[Buckeye67]

You're still missing the point. Reread my post until it makes sense - it has nothing to do with the content of his posts, it has everything to do with the manner in which he posted it.

[Britboy]

Oh, did you mean to say you want a full military CV on everyones opening post Buckeye? Was that it? :roll:

[Buckeye67]

Yes, absolutely. :roll:

Edit: Murk loar.

[boone]

Oh, did you mean to say you want a full military CV on everyones opening post Buckeye? Was that it? :roll:
If you're going to beak-off about military matters/tactics? wouldn't hurt, would it?

[Britboy]

Might not be too good for PERSEC either to go blabbering on about where you were, with who, when etc etc all over the internet... Plus it'd make a lot of other peoples input automatically disregarded, closed mindedness is never a good thing.

[BrianT]

It doesn't hurt to say you were in the Singapore infantry. I didn't initially want to say I was in Battalion, but it was hard to talk about things without people questioning my credentials. In the end, people still don't know my exact identity.

[Buckeye67]

Close-mindedness isn't a bad thing when the target's a Been Nowhere, Done Nothing knobhead spouting off about crap he knows nothing about. But again, that's not my point anyway. I'm failing to see why it is so difficult to understand that saying:


So you are saying people do not clear rooms using rifles on automatic mode.

Really?!

To a BTDT, makes you sound like a ****.

Whereas saying something like this:


That's interesting that you guys in the US military train that way. I served in the infantry in Singapore, and we trained to do it this way *insert explanation of training technique*

sounds a lot less like you're some douchebag with a load of bull**** spilling out of your pie-hole. Heck, it even sounds like it's a worthwhile contribution to the discussion that could have prevented this entire line of conversation.

[Britboy]

Brian: Yeh, thats true. Just makes me think 'eh?' when some of my mates are on Facebook and upload whole albums of mil photos with everybody elses name on their face, and are on a network so then everyone else on that network can see everything they posted, friend or not! Just doesn't seem too wise to me, but hey, thats just me I s'pose...

[Dispatcher]

First time he pops up in the thread he starts questioning a known BTDT. Not "Hi, I was in the infantry in Singapore and we trained this way..." - which would have 1) established that he might have some credible input and 2) isn't a snarky ass comment to someone who's really done this stuff.

His next post makes some nebulous allusion to having had a "sergeant" and then he goes on to telling people what he thinks the brits have to "help them out". Again, this does absolutely zero to establish any sort of credibility.

In his third post, he again makes no mention of his military service and/or training. He again makes a ****ty ass comment, and then posts youtube videos. Much like airsofters who veer out of their lane and start gobbing off about crap they know nothing about.

His fourth post he's again telling a known BTDT what "standard FIBUA" techniques are - not "this is how we did in in the infantry in Singapore"... and he still makes no mention whatsoever as to what his qualifications for making such a wide-sweeping generalization are.

Then he's corrected by a known CF soldier that his "standard techniques" are out of date. We still have no indication from scabmeister what his quals are, other than having watched a youtube video.

That's when CJ - a former LEO and moderator of this forum, asks him what his qualifications are - which AGAIN we have NO IDEA what they might be. I mean hell, I masturbate quite frequently to Anna Kournikova photos, but that sure as hell don't make me a tennis player.

After being asked what his qualifications might be, he still makes no mention of any military service - no, he makes a ****ty comment to a moderator. It isn't until I asked him to answer CJ's question that he finally mentions something specific about his military service.

...and you think that we're the ones being unreasonable?

as long as that makes you happy. :roll:


You owe me a new keyboard. I couldnt keep my coffee in, when i read this. rofl

[Beowulf]

This is the cancer that's killing mp.net

I ****ing called it.

[T3ngu]

First time he pops up in the thread he starts questioning a known BTDT. Not "Hi, I was in the infantry in Singapore and we trained this way..." - which would have 1) established that he might have some credible input and 2) isn't a snarky ass comment to someone who's really done this stuff.

blah blah blah

...and you think that we're the ones being unreasonable?

as long as that makes you happy. :roll:

Holy smokes cranky pants on eh? Great post Buckeye

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

Hi apparently no one has answered my question regarding the Sterling SMG. Were the Sterling SMG's issued to some infantry units during wars such as Falklands? were they used for room clearing rather than SLR's due to their compact size? or were they issued as self defense weapons?

but my uncle said the sterling was trash and it is probably the second worst british weapon he has ever fired (1. being L85A1)

[Beowulf]

Holy smokes cranky pants on eh?

I think he's spot on.

Standard SOP when entering a new AO, familiarize yourself with the area and get to know the culture of the LN's.

[Buckeye67]

I think I was more snarky than cranky there. I mean, I didn't say f**k once in that entire post. :hug:

[T3ngu]

I think he's spot on.

Standard SOP when entering a new AO, familiarize yourself with the area and get to know the culture of the LN's.

Edited most post a second ago to add good post. Which it was!

Meant to add a few :):)

[Beowulf]

Edited most post a second ago to add good post. Which it was!

Meant to add a few :):)

ha, no worries.

[Rancid]

Nine banger in the door and then followed bythe brick or stack...weapons on select fire.

What do you mean "weapons on select fire" ?

When I was in the British Army my weapon, if a semi auto was either on safe or fire and if an automatic weapon it was on safe, semi or auto. No smallarms I have used had a "select fire position".

[Rancid]

Hi apparently no one has answered my question regarding the Sterling SMG. Were the Sterling SMG's issued to some infantry units during wars such as Falklands? were they used for room clearing rather than SLR's due to their compact size? or were they issued as self defense weapons?

but my uncle said the sterling was trash and it is probably the second worst british weapon he has ever fired (1. being L85A1)

All units in the British Army had Sterling L2A3 Smg's issued and yes they were used in the Falklands. Rooms would have been cleared by soldiers with the weapon that they were issued with.

The L2A3 Smg was as good as any open bolt Smg of that era. It wasn't trash it did the job it was designed to do.

[martinexsquaddie]

Sterling was strictly a cqb weapon issued to people who had over jobs to do or heavy loads to carry i.e radio op hq staff milan mortars etc.
aimed shots will clear a room just as well as random bursts

[kongman]

You're still missing the point. Reread my post until it makes sense - it has nothing to do with the content of his posts, it has everything to do with the manner in which he posted it.

yup the guy sounds like a noob ...........unless the guy is an instructer on the subject ,being shown it couple of times dont make you an expert...........

[LRPV]

I ****ing called it.

Ok, go to the front of the class....:)

But you have to admit, this **** does get amusing.

[kongman]

Ok, go to the front of the class....:)

But you have to admit, this **** does get amusing.


yup its a good read.................

[Corrupt]

Well, regardless, I learned something new. So are the British still going 'Hollywood' through windows?:)

Well he was invited to practice FIBUA with the British Army that's how Jeremy Clarkson got killed about 40 times in a day. Getting stuck clambering through windows.

[Roy Batty]

What do you mean "weapons on select fire" ?

When I was in the British Army my weapon, if a semi auto was either on safe or fire and if an automatic weapon it was on safe, semi or auto. No smallarms I have used had a "select fire position".

Sorry to be unclear. I meant Semi-auto.

[Rancid]

Sorry to be unclear. I meant Semi-auto.

Cheers mate.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Well he was invited to practice FIBUA with the British Army that's how Jeremy Clarkson got killed about 40 times in a day. Getting stuck clambering through windows.

Yeah but JC is a tall, slow, overweight, middle aged git!

[Corrupt]

Yeah but JC is a tall, slow, overweight, middle aged git!
Yes I agree, but still the point was it is very easy to shoot someone trying to struggle through a window no matter who they are, with they're carrying all their combat gear.