Nato to accept Russia membership soon,says ex-Polish president

[Afro-European]

Former president of Poland Aleksander Kwasniewski thinks it is possible that NATO will accept the membership of Russia, RIA Novosti reports. Kwasniewski made that statement at the a presentation at the American research institute The Bipartisan Policy Center.


According to Kwasniewski, the alliance should evolve further in the direction of collective security organizations and accept states beyond the Atlantic region. He named Japan, Australia and South Korea along with Russia as potential members of the reformed organization.

Kwasniewski noted that Russia does not show any desire to join NATO and that it is using all means available to it, including high fuel prices, to prevent Ukraine and Georgia from joining it. “Russia will use its position to hold Ukraine and Georgia as far as possible from the European Union and NATO as long as it can. And then it will play the Kosovo and Transdniestria cards,” the former president said. He added optimistically that eventually, “Russia will understand that its place is in Europe.”

http://www.kommersant.com/p-12411/NATO_expansion/

[Flamming_Python]

Russia's place is in Europe?... lol :)

[Afro-European]

Russia's place is in Europe?... lol :)

Russia will be joining the EU and Nato soon.The ex-Polish president has some "inside"info about that:).

[Flamming_Python]

Russia will be joining the EU and Nato soon.The ex-Polish president has some "inside"info about that:).

Under Polish supervision, of course p-)

All hail Wielka Polska! woot

[little icebear]

Laugh as long as you can, my Russian friend. We´ll see if you´re still laughing when you wake up in the morning to find out, that your country´s run by faceless, Brussel based burocrats.
Victory shall be ours and no T-80 or SS-something missile will prevent it.

[Arbody]

Former president of Poland Aleksander Kwasniewski thinks it is possible that NATO will accept the membership of Russia, RIA Novosti reports. Kwasniewski made that statement at the a presentation at the American research institute The Bipartisan Policy Center.


According to Kwasniewski, the alliance should evolve further in the direction of collective security organizations and accept states beyond the Atlantic region. He named Japan, Australia and South Korea along with Russia as potential members of the reformed organization.

Kwasniewski noted that Russia does not show any desire to join NATO and that it is using all means available to it, including high fuel prices, to prevent Ukraine and Georgia from joining it. “Russia will use its position to hold Ukraine and Georgia as far as possible from the European Union and NATO as long as it can. And then it will play the Kosovo and Transdniestria cards,” the former president said. He added optimistically that eventually, “Russia will understand that its place is in Europe.”

http://www.kommersant.com/p-12411/NATO_expansion/


Polish Vodka Strong !!!111111 Aleksander don't drink

[tsuri]

Russia joining NATO has always been a possibility. But currently Russia dislikes it as they need an external threat to justify their policies.
Especially with NATO turning into a Globocop for human rights, that stuff does not fly so well with the Russians.

Millitarily, it makes all the sense in the world.

If you want to get an overview on the historic perspective (even though it is a bit dated)
http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/davydov.pdf



Japan, Australia and South Korea
Japan is extremely unlikely. If their constitution stays the way it is, they are only dead weight to NATO. Nobody would want them. South Korea.. would you accept a warzone into an organisation that is committed to the defense of its members?
Australia is probably the only possible pick here but their ties with the British and the Americans make it rather unncessary.

[Silent Reader]

hmm i don't really think that russia could and would want to join nato
both sides can point at each other and say "we need more money for our defense because of them" - something that benefits both sides.
and besides this - what would be the mission of such a big nato organisation? protaction against china/north korea/iran? hmm.. i don't really know

concerning Japan.. i think they are at a point similar to Germany in the early 90s when we first deployed some UN soldiers to somalia..
it might take another 10 or 20 years for them to normalize their attitude towards the military but i think they are on their way

[Mamont]

:) Russia in NATO? Only after Putin's marriage with Kabaeva..

[Xaito]

and what good would such an oversized NATO be, where every member pulls in a different direction?

[Pleonasm]

and what good would such an oversized NATO be, where every member pulls in a different direction?Yellow Peril?

[VPR]

:) Russia in NATO? Only after Putin's marriage with Kabaeva..

by the way, lenta.ru said quoting Putin, that its complete BS and there is no divorce and marriage, and the news paper that published this story was closed down already

[little icebear]

and the news paper that published this story was closed down already

You forgot to mention that the Journalists and their Families were deported to Siberia.

[perdurabo]

Polish Vodka Strong !!!111111 Aleksander don't drink
agreed our former pres. is known for having problems with drinking so guys don't expect anything serious from this dude.

[TR1]

No thanks.

[Alexandr]

Only after Somalia.We are next on level of Evilness =)

[Kitsune]

A Russia within NATO makes no sense at all. I don't buy it, it simply won't happen.
A Russia within the European Union may perhaps come to be - on one day in a more distant future, who knows how things will look in the second half of this century. But at present it seems more likely that Russia and "the West" will drift apart.

[wholagun]

maybe it was one of his drunken outbursts

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4UEoRN9asdw&feature=related

[delio]

The title of this thread is very misleading.

[wholagun]

A Russia within NATO makes no sense at all. I don't buy it, it simply won't happen.
A Russia within the European Union may perhaps come to be - on one day in a more distant future, who knows how things will look in the second half of this century. But at present it seems more likely that Russia and "the West" will drift apart.

the Russia that joins NATO and the EU - if they ever join - would not be the same Russia as today, they would have to undergo HUGE reforms. At this point Russia is in no state to join the EU, they're entire form of government, and judicial system and standards are no where near EU standards not to mention Russia's questionable democracy. Russia in the EU and NATO? Like Kitsenu says - distant - very distant future

I don't think Russia would want to, or is ready to, relinquish its sovereignty to Brussels

[Afro-European]

Russia joining NATO has always been a possibility. But currently Russia dislikes it as they need an external threat to justify their policies.

.

Nato needs Russia too to justify its unnecessary expansion eastward.What you said goes both ways.

[Afro-European]

A Russia within NATO makes no sense at all. I don't buy it, it simply won't happen.
A Russia within the European Union may perhaps come to be - on one day in a more distant future, who knows how things will look in the second half of this century. But at present it seems more likely that Russia and "the West" will drift apart.

Actually joining the EU goes hands in hands with joining Nato nowadays.
Don't you know that all EU members(with the exception of Finland, Ireland, Sweden) are Nato members?

[Kitsune]

the Russia that joins NATO and the EU - if they ever join - would not be the same Russia as today, they would have to undergo HUGE reforms.
I know. And since I suspect Russia won't join for many decades, the EU would not be the same either. ;-)






Actually joining the EU goes hands in hands with joining Nato nowadays.
Don't you know that all EU members(with the exception of Finland, Ireland, Sweden) are Nato members?
As you said yourself, not all EU members are NATO members. That all the former Warsaw bloc states who joined the EU also joined NATO has one simple reason: they are afraid of Russia (although they may not say so). So, unless the Russians start being afraid of themselves, joining NATO does really not make much sense for them and NATO alike. Besides, I said that I believe that, if Russia joins the European Union at all, it will be in a more distant future. I somewhat doubt that NATO will still be around then. Of course, I could be wrong.

[tsuri]

Nato needs Russia too to justify its unnecessary expansion eastward.What you said goes both ways.

Well thats the hen and the egg isnt it? The russians feel threatened because the eastern european states are so scared of their former overlords that they will give an arm and a leg to join NATO.
Nobody is circling Russia. they are all running away from them and behaving like Stalin got back in Office wont help one bit, except for the domestic voters which is what all of this is about.

The enemy for NATO is not global terrorism, dictators and the like. Russia is a has been and they have yet to realize that nobody in NATO will see them as a serious threat (except the eastern members of course ;) )
NATO - Russia war? Not going to happen. Everyone know that, except for the Kremlin.

[Mamont]

NATO - Russia war? Not going to happen. Everyone know that, except for the Kremlin.
Don't tell me - F22, F35, EF2000, new ships, guns, tech are all against terrorists?

[Xaito]

Nobody is circling Russia. [...] and they have yet to realize that nobody in NATO will see them as a serious threat[...]
NATO - Russia war? Not going to happen. Everyone know that, except for the Kremlin.

oh please call russian intelligence services and tell them that you know more then them :D
while you're at it call Putin too and give him some hints about how to lead a country ;)

[CPL Trevoga]

As you said yourself, not all EU members are NATO members. That all the former Warsaw bloc states who joined the EU also joined NATO has one simple reason: they are afraid of Russia (although they may not say so). So, unless the Russians start being afraid of themselves, joining NATO does really not make much sense for them and NATO alike. Besides, I said that I believe that, if Russia joins the European Union at all, it will be in a more distant future. I somewhat doubt that NATO will still be around then. Of course, I could be wrong.

Afraid of Russia? This is silliest argument. Poland was afraid of Russia, yet they were ready to join forces with Germans, where were making fertilizer out Polish 50 years prior? Their elites sold their country to the highest bidder. Now Polish are free to clean dishes and do the dirty work for their British and German masters.

[Macs.]

Afraid of Russia? This is silliest argument. Poland was afraid of Russia, yet they were ready to join forces with Germans, where were making fertilizer out Polish 50 years prior? Their elites sold their country to the highest bidder. Now Polish are free to clean dishes and do the dirty work for their British and German masters.

And getting Multi-Billion-Euros pumped into their country from the evil """"masters"""" and power up the country that was runned down by communism. Getting on par with the nations that had the chance to be free and could enjoy a good economy earlier.

[tsuri]

Don't tell me - F22, F35, EF2000, new ships, guns, tech are all against terrorists?

You need tools to fight the old kind of enemy and the occasional rogue state. Also: The military is always gearing up to win the last war. Not the next one.

There was supposedly a leaflet like this which was hanging around in the Pentagon in the 1990ies which captures this pretty well.


Mature North American Superpower seeks hostile partner for arms-racing, Third World conflicts and general antagonism. Must be sufficiently menacing to convinve Congress of military financial requirements. Nuclear capability is preferred; however, non-nuclear candidates possessing significant bio-chemical warfare resources will be considered. Send note with pictures of fleet and air squadrons to:

Chairman joint chiefs of staff
The PENTAGON
WASHINGTON,DC
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA


oh please call russian intelligence services and tell them that you know more then them

They know it pretty well themselves.
Just look at the FDI going around between Europe, the US and Russia. The trade, the labour movement. And now tell me again that anyone would be daft enough to put their profits at stake for... what?


while you're at it call Putin too and give him some hints about how to lead a countr
He could clearly need some advice(faking an election that his guy would clearly win regardless of that - how weird can it get) but mostly he seems to lead pretty well. The direction is the problem..

[Kitsune]

Afraid of Russia? This is silliest argument. Poland was afraid of Russia, yet they were ready to join forces with Germans, where were making fertilizer out Polish 50 years prior?
Yes, but then there is our unique German charme. I mean, who can be angry with us for long? :grin:

[CPL Trevoga]

And getting Multi-Billion-Euros pumped into their country from the evil """"masters"""" and power up the country that was runned down by communism. Getting on par with the nations that had the chance to be free and could enjoy a good economy earlier.

That's sounds more fair and balanced.

[GazB]

You forgot to mention that the Journalists and their Families were deported to Siberia.

And so they should be.


Nobody is circling Russia. they are all running away from them and behaving like Stalin got back in Office wont help one bit, except for the domestic voters which is what all of this is about.

So those radar stations in Latvia are for monitoring bird migration?

Russia has nothing to gain from EU or NATO membership... now or in the future.

And if it can't even become part of the WTO what chance does it have in the EU or NATO anyway... no matter what some ex polish politician says.

Should we listen to what ex US president Jimmy Carter has to say too?

[Flamming_Python]

And getting Multi-Billion-Euros pumped into their country from the evil """"masters"""" and power up the country that was runned down by communism. Getting on par with the nations that had the chance to be free and could enjoy a good economy earlier.

We didn't live any better than them, that's the difference. Under such conditions, you can't just say one group has control and enslaves everyone else.

It just becomes a system, that everyone is under and everyone has in common. That's why all this talk of blaming Russia, is BS from Russian point of view, with an aggressive verbal counterattack against anyone who insists otherwise :)

[delio]

Afraid of Russia? This is silliest argument. Poland was afraid of Russia, yet they were ready to join forces with Germans, where were making fertilizer out Polish 50 years prior? Their elites sold their country to the highest bidder. Now Polish are free to clean dishes and do the dirty work for their British and German masters.

Talking about Western masters ..a friend of mine just mail ordered a Russian bride. She'll arrive to watch his dishes - as well as serve him in other ways - in a couple of days ..

[KoTeMoRe]

Yellow Peril?

There is no such thing as Yellow peril.:roll:

Demographically China is tied by India. And I hardly see China taking on "ze west" with such a potentially disastrous adversary at it's door. Not mentionning the chinese are feared and despised by half of the continent (Asia).

[SrB-23Q]

would Russia even want to join NATO?? lol

[KillerBD]

NATO is cool and all... But I don't really see too awful much of a point for it anymore... The USSR is gone, and now they are considering having Russia join..? Whats the point anymore?

Well, there is always China NATO could gang up on... Seeing as how Russia is begining to view China as the USSR did back in the '60s (they didn't really see eye to eye).

[Lokos]

Talking about Western masters ..a friend of mine just mail ordered a Russian bride. She'll arrive to watch his dishes - as well as serve him in other ways - in a couple of days ..

That tells me everything I need to know about you, slime. And your friend, too.

Lokos

[-Church-]

If they do will they stop crying crocodile tears over the missile shield ?

[Alexandr]

If they do will they stop crying crocodile tears over the missile shield ?

You mean "they" - USA?They cry on every press meeting about it,in that level of fear of sophisicated missle danger,seems like they changing they underpants every time after words "Dangerr!!",as W prounonse it.
Like that http://youtube.com/watch?v=BgrSCVYT_0Y

[Afro-European]

NATO is cool and all... But I don't really see too awful much of a point for it anymore... The USSR is gone, and now they are considering having Russia join..? Whats the point anymore?Russia joining Nato would be a great idea as it could deploy its forces on American soil and US forces could be deployed in Russia.Doing so would strenghten their military cooperation and prevent some "misunderstanding" .No need to retain nukes as they don't see each other as a threat :):):)



Well, there is always China NATO could gang up on... .
Then instead of Nato unnecessarily keeps on moving eastward,it should directly take a wide jump from the Baltic states to South Korea and Japan.

[GazB]

Talking about Western masters ..a friend of mine just mail ordered a Russian bride. She'll arrive to watch his dishes - as well as serve him in other ways - in a couple of days ..

Reminds be of the big fat european guys you see in places like Thailand with little asian girls hanging around them... but I guess for westerners that sort of thing is OK... acceptable slavery. Where everything is for sale is where the west takes off its mask...

[AlexMartin2]

If they do will they stop crying crocodile tears over the missile shield ?

You are right. We should stop crying and begin to supply Iraq resistance or Iran or Siria advanced military weapons. Also we should begin to install ABM on Cuba, and give nuclear technology to N.Korea.

You will say that is complete bullsh1t, and Russia should listen to western worries? Yes, but why, when our worries called 'crocodile tears'?

[Pleonasm]

There is no such thing as Yellow peril.:roll:
I think there's a misunderstanding. I said Yellow Peril and not China. The (probably irrational) fear of China some states or individuals have was the point I was pointing at, I didn't want to say that China is a danger that could force Russia into NATO or something like that.

[tsuri]

You are right. We should stop crying and begin to supply Iraq resistance or Iran or Siria advanced military weapons.
Bad response

, and give nuclear technology to N.Korea.

Talk about over the top?


Also we should begin to install ABM on Cuba
That would be the appropriate measure. But that is the problem for Russia. They can't do it. The US have the money to spare, Russia does not. Thats what upsets them.


Russia has nothing to gain from EU or NATO membership... now or in the future.

They have everything to gain but their pride gets in the way. They have a disastrous political system, a parliament without power, a bad human rights record and their income equality is somewhere between the US and Eritrea.

That all could improve in a EU ascension process (just look how the Eastern European States developed, overtaking Russia on all levels - even without natural resources and the beloved leader Putin)
But they won't join if they do not have at least the illusion to be the top dog, the guy in charge. Thats why NATO membership would also be problematic. US domination is a fact, Russian parity is a comforting fiction for the local population.

Russia could make a great peer in Europe, but they chose not to.

Quick mental health test:
If your neighbours do not trust you and join a military alliance to be protected against you, what do you do?

You commit yourself to trust building measures
You threaten them and vow to support separatist movements

[-Church-]

You are right. We should stop crying and begin to supply Iraq resistance or Iran or Siria advanced military weapons. Also we should begin to install ABM on Cuba, and give nuclear technology to N.Korea.

Im not gonna play dumb and pretend i dont understand why the russians are getting excited over the missile shield. Its obviously a threat to their nuclear deterrence and its a scary thought to know that a potential enemy can not only have first strike capibility and have a defense system that might(or might not) actually work.

But comparing the missile shield, a system here to destroy incoming ICBMs to fielding weapons to enemies that are in active conflict with the west, rogue states etc... is just stupid.

Its not like along with the missile shield, the us are supplying chechens with guns and explosives. Lets get real.


You will say that is complete bullsh1t, and Russia should listen to western worries? Yes, but why, when our worries called 'crocodile tears'?

Cos in soviet russia, you dont win cold war, cold war wins you. p-)

[KoTeMoRe]

Im not gonna play dumb and pretend i dont understand why the russians are getting excited over the missile shield. Its obviously a threat to their nuclear deterrence and its a scary thought to know that a potential enemy can not only have first strike capibility and have a defense system that might(or might not) actually work.

But comparing the missile shield, a system here to destroy incoming ICBMs to fielding weapons to enemies that are in active conflict with the west, rogue states etc... is just stupid.

Its not like along with the missile shield, the us are supplying chechens with guns and explosives. Lets get real.



Cos in soviet russia, you dont win cold war, cold war wins you. p-)

Not willing to ignite a fire but you may very well get a look at some of your buddies in the ME sending cash, instructors and shaheeds within Chechnya.
Like the house of Saud. Don't give me that old and tiresome "but tis not them state", it is their state and their connections buying a relative peace at home by exporting their a-holes elsewhere.

I would not like to step up the debate on the "missile shield" stopping "iranian" ICBM's over...Russia. and what not. I'm not including Korean ICBM's because, as Mr.Putin put it, it is against basic ballistics.

Why not, you fight with what you got. Since when "proxy wars" were stupid.

Tsuri: You obviously don't understand it. Russia has nothing to gain from an EU access. Because they're just too big for the EU, and paradoxally as much a coherent force as a problematic ethnic and custodial puzzle. Who will deal with such a partner? Who would bring in enough leverage to outweight Russia once it has joined the EU.

You give me the progress of the Eastern European states as example...that is a prime evidence you ignore totally the scale at work here. And even then, Eastern Europe is not a EU-made paradise. Just less worse in some places than it was 20 years ago. Thing again before talking non-sense.

[Rostov]

You forgot to mention that the Journalists and their Families were deported to Siberia.

they were allowed to take their dog with them to Siberia, but ironicaly it died from a deadly dose of Polonium 4 days later. What was even more ironic was the fact that the dog was bi******.

[GazB]

That all could improve in a EU ascension process (just look how the Eastern European States developed,

The eastern european states are used to being told what to do by a foreign country. During the cold war it was oppression, now it is democracy and free market economy.

The point is that there is no benefit to Russia in handing its government over to Brussels and its foreign negotiations over to any little baltic country that wants to exercise its veto vote.

Rule by committee might sound good... I doubt they will get anything done... but in reality sometime your government actually does have to do things, which is where the EU falls over.

BTW human rights for Russian citizens within the EU are far worse than within Russia.

[Afro-European]

.
BTW human rights for Russian citizens within the EU are far worse than within Russia.

Can you elaborate?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Australia will never join a broad military alliance. Our current arrangements work just fine thank you.

[Afro-European]

Australia will never join a broad military alliance. Our current arrangements work just fine thank you.
Does Australia even need a military alliance? The only "enemy" you guys have is Indonesia,which you can "take care of" on your own if things hit the fans.

[GazB]

Can you elaborate?

Referring to latvians etc all with their passports stamped alien rather than latvian or whatever.


But comparing the missile shield, a system here to destroy incoming ICBMs to fielding weapons to enemies that are in active conflict with the west, rogue states etc... is just stupid.

Missile shields undermine Russias strategic forces. There are limits on Russia as to what types of ICBMs they can build and a limit that means they can't build any land based missile, ballistic or cruise, with a range of between 500km and 5,500km, or with a warhead greater than 500kgs that is not an ICBM.
There are no treaty limits or financial limits on all of the EU, or all of NATO except the US. It just seems a little unfair that Russia is restricted and the US is restricted but no one else in Europe... that can be assumed to be on the US's side are not restricted at all.
The west has made plenty of promises and none of them have been kept.
The west now claims this defence system will only have 10 interceptors. Then they say as a reward for basing it in Poland they will upgrade Polands military forces and base THAAD missiles at this base as well.
How long before it makes sense to base 15 interceptors or more there?
Russia had no say in stopping the first 10, why would they expect to have any say in the next 20 if they say and do nothing now.

The reactions of Russia are perfectly normal.
They are not saying they will invade Poland to prevent this.
They are saying if you think this is necessary then we will have to take steps to counter this move. Ignore us further and we will take further action to modify our stance.
These actions and reactions are taking us further and further from friendship and cooperation... but you are the one making the moves and we are reacting to those moves.