17yr old killed by father for loving British soldier

[Lov3ll]

The Iraqi teenage girl killed for loving a British soldier
The Observer, Sunday April 27 2008
Afif Sarhan in Basra

A 17-year-old Iraqi girl has been murdered by her father in an 'honour killing' after falling in love with a British soldier in Basra, The Observer can reveal.
Rand Abdel-Qader was killed after her family discovered she had formed a friendship with a 22-year-old infantryman she knew as Paul. Rand, who met the soldier while working on an aid project for displaced families, was suffocated by her father and then hacked at with a knife. All the time he was calling out that his honour was being cleansed, said Rand's mother.
The father was arrested, held for two hours, then released without charge. 'Not much can be done when we have an "honour killing",' said Sgt Ali Jabbar of Basra police. 'You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws.'
Rand's mother, who divorced her husband after the killing, is now in hiding from her family and being looked after by a local charity. 'She has been threatened by her husband's family and is very scared,' said a charity spokeswoman.
An MoD spokesman said there was no official policy on advising troops how to behave with Iraqi women, indicating that Paul would not have been told that their friendship might be putting her life at risk. 'They are not told: don't go and fall in love.'
Though this is believed to be the first 'honour killing' involving a British soldier, there were 47 such killings of young women in Basra last year, though only three convictions, said the Basra Security Committee.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/27/iraq.military

[LazerLordz]

Pure and simple murder.

[MoFo]

Pretty ****ing outragious.

[Rudolph]

Hope the guy can get over it and realize it's not his fault for being caught in a primitive world.

RIP to the girl.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Animals. RIP to the girl.

[Pars]

Outright barbarism. It ****ing blows my mind. Poor girl..

[wagon]

RIP to the girl. I fear her death will not be the last 'honour killing'. Honour killing is murder, period. How can these people can hold up their religion as 'the one' when they do these kind of things in its name?

[Military-G]

Why isnt this front page headlines ... wheres the outcry ... the fact he murdered the girl is bad enough but "was released after 2 hours" .. ****ing disgusting in my opinion.:|

[Shadowstorm]

RIP for the girl.

[Xaito]

not the kind of values I'd like to uphold...

[btdown]

Time for the solidier to go perform an honor killing of his own...

[jokuvaan]

Its critical to always know local culture where ever you are. Wikipedia says that: "Honor killing was legal until 2002 in Iraq." So are there two parallel laws?

[kosse]

Why isnt this front page headlines ... wheres the outcry ... the fact he murdered the girl is bad enough but "was released after 2 hours" .. ****ing disgusting in my opinion.:|

Because it happens all the time. Even in Europe young muslim girls have a lot of "accidental" deaths..falling off from a balcony etc.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Why isnt this front page headlines ... wheres the outcry ... the fact he murdered the girl is bad enough but "was released after 2 hours" .. ****ing disgusting in my opinion.:|

It is front page news in the UK. I am looking at it right now on the front page of The Observer (national Sunday newspaper)

[Warlord]

Well she was in a Muslim country....where women should follow religious laws.....


Jeezz.....

[Ghelp]

It is a Muslim country so this is obviously allowed...
He should of been taken out back and unloaded on with SA-80's.

[Jarhead]

Welcome in the 21st centruy...sometimes its like medieval
Sad story anway.
RIP

[LazerLordz]

The Australian had another report about a transnational "murder of thy own daughter/niece/female cousin" . The tale is sickening.
----------------------------

Honour killing's Aussie link

Sian Powell | April 26, 2008

MORTALLY wounded and bleeding profusely, Pela Atroshi covered her head with her hands, pleading "please don't shoot me, please don't shoot me". As her sister and her mother screamed, her uncle Rezkar Atroshi raised his gun and killed her. The family's honour had been cleansed.

Rezkar had already shot Pela twice in the back in the upstairs room. Helped downstairs by her mother and her younger sister, the 19-year-old Kurdish Swede was confronted by four resolute men - her father and his three brothers. The men pulled the women apart. Her youngest uncle then finished the job, shooting Pela in the head. The bullet went through one of her fingers and into her brain.

The decision to kill her was made by a council of male relatives, led by Pela's grandfather, Abdulmajid Atroshi - a Kurd who lived in Australia.

One of his sons, Shivan Atroshi, helped pull the women away from Pela so his younger brother could get a clean shot. Shivan, too, lived in Australia.

It is the first time an officially confirmed honour killing with a connection to Australia has ever publicly come to light, but it is likely there have been other Australian-connected honour crimes that have been kept hidden within the tight-lipped Australian Kurdish community.

Pela Atroshi's murder in Dohuk, in Iraqi Kurdistan, was officially deemed an honour killing by both Iraqi and Swedish authorities.

The Swedish detective inspector who investigated the murder, Kickis Aahre Algamo, said she had since heard of another honour crime with a connection to Australia - this time the attempted killing of an Australian Kurd that went awry when the girl escaped.

She told The Weekend Australian that from 2000 the Swedish authorities were in communication with Australian authorities and the Swedish embassy in Canberra about the 1999 murder of Pela Atroshi.

Breen Atroshi, Pela's younger sister, Inspector Algamo said, was still prepared to testify in any prosecution of her Australian grandfather or uncle. But it is unclear whether Pela's grandfather and uncle still live in Australia.

An Interpol investigation in 2000 found that Shivan Atroshi was not at the time living in Australia, although he may have since returned. One person in Sydney's Kurdish community said he believed the Atroshi grandfather - once a freedom fighter - had hidden in Kurdistan, but had sporadically returned to Australia in recent years. Abdulmajid Atroshi had travelled to Stockholm with his son Shivan in 1999 to finally decide on Pela's fate.

She had made the mistake of leaving home for a time, frustrated by her family's adherence to restrictive Kurdish traditions.

"Pela's uncle, the oldest son of Abdulmajid, said if any of the unmarried girls is away from home for one night, she has to be killed," Inspector Algamo said on the phone from Stockholm.

Pela was an intelligent and good-looking girl. When she emigrated with her family to Sweden in 1995, she took to Swedish ways - eventually leaving the family home in January 1999. But after a time she missed her parents and six younger brothers and sisters and returned, agreeing to an arranged marriage in Kurdistan. It was a front - the men in her family had decided to kill her in their home town of Dohuk, northern Iraq, where honour killings were considered minor crimes, and where the Atroshi clan commanded immense respect.

The UN Special *******eur on Violence Against Women, Yakin Erturk, in a report last year to the Human Rights Council, said she had been told that a "family council of male relatives living in Sweden and Australia decided that Pela had to die to cleanse the family honour".

The men of the family - Pela's father, Agid, and her three uncles, Australian Shivan, and Swedish Rezkar and Dakhaz - arranged for Pela to go to Kurdistan in June 1999 so they could kill her. Her grandfather remained in Sweden, saying, according to the testimony of Pela's younger sister Breen, "I will not set foot in Kurdistan until Pela is dead".

In October 1999, in Iraq, Agid and Rezkar were convicted of her murder, and sentenced to one-year suspended jail terms. The court referred to a medical report that said "her hymen was broken" and to the "defendants' honourable motivation".

A higher court later ordered that the sentences be served, but by that time, the two Swedes, Rezkar and Dakhaz, had returned to Stockholm, where they were arrested. Inspector Algamo and a fellow officer had travelled to Turkey to bring a key witness, Pela's sister Breen, back to Sweden. Breen was the first to raise the alarm, ringing the Swedish police from Dohuk to report her sister's murder.

Breen was brought by a delegation of Kurds to the Swedish embassy in Ankara, Turkey. "I got a couple of minutes alone with her, and she said, 'I want to go home and I want to testify for my sister Pela'," said Inspector Algamo, who is now compiling a report on honour crimes.

"We rushed her away to a waiting embassy car and drove as fast as possible to the airport."

In Sweden, Breen testified in the trials of her uncles - who had been arrested in January 2000 and who were liable to prosecution because Pela's murder was planned in Stockholm. Breen condemned her elders in court. She now lives in hiding.

On January 12, 2001, the Stockholm City Court convicted both men of murder and sentenced them to life imprisonment. Their sentences were confirmed on appeal. Pela's father Agid remained in Kurdistan. He is still wanted for murder in Sweden.

"When we counted all the ones involved in the planning (of Pela's murder) there were 11," Inspector Algamo said. "But some of them were Australian citizens and some of them were Iraqi citizens - we could only prosecute three of them."

Swedish deputy chief prosecutor Agnetha Hilding Qvarnstrom explained that while there had been contact with the Australian authorities regarding the Atroshi case it had not culminated in an official extradition request.

Since the murder was planned in Sweden and committed in Iraq, it also seems unlikely Australia could take any action.

In Australia, Muhammad Kamal, a lecturer in philosophy at Melbourne University, remembers Pela's grandfather, Abdulmajid Atroshi - the patriarch.

In the early 1990s, Dr Kamal had been broadcasting a Kurdish program on SBS radio, and Atroshi was behind a campaign to have the program taken off air because he believed it was preaching immorality.

"He was a practising Muslim and a tribal man," Dr Kamal said, adding that religious leaders in Kurdistan never condemned honour crimes because they believed it was an essential bulwark against immorality. "I haven't heard any statement from clergy in the region to say honour killing is wrong," he said.

In recent years, with the diaspora from tribal regions, there are honour killings connected to a number of nations in Europe - and now to Australia. Inspector Algamo has also been told that in 2004 or 2005 an Australian girl connected to the Atroshi clan was in the same position as Pela.

"I was told by my informers that the Australian girl was taken to Kurdistan in the summer on vacation," Inspector Algamo said. "She had a forbidden love or something, they were also planning to kill her." The girl discovered the plans and fled, assisted by an American soldier who helped to smuggle her out of the country.

She said the Australian Kurdish community staged two demonstrations in front of the Swedish embassy in Canberra insisting on the Atroshi men's innocence.

Unni Wikan, a Norwegian academic who has written a recent book on honour crimes titled In Honour of Fadime, has looked carefully at the Atroshi case. She said the horrors persisted. "In Sweden there is a development now called balcony suicide," she said, adding the deaths were really camouflaged honour killings.

Inspector Algamo said her research into honour crimes had been difficult. "So many murders, so many girls who fall from the balcony, so many false suicides," she said.

"There is huge pressure on girls to take their own lives. They don't have the right to their own bodies, because their bodies are owned by the clan."

powells@theaustralian.com.au


Link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23600452-601,00.html)

[Weasel]

Those evil muslims. :roll:

Glad we non-muslims don´t kill each other.

[LazerLordz]

Those evil muslims. :roll:

Glad we non-muslims don´t kill each other.

Now you know that is a sweeping statement.

There's a bloody butcher in every race, and a peacenik in every race too.

[Elemental666]

Those evil muslims. :roll:

Glad we non-muslims don´t kill each other.

:cantbeli:. And this is the difference:


The father was arrested, held for two hours, then released without charge

[Britboy]

Bloody shocking, animalistic.

The scariest bit is the soldier didn't necessarily have to know that this'd happen. All it takes is a smile or a laugh or a crush, and the girl, or others watching, to get a bit carried away, and then this happens! Even if you tell troops about the danger, there is nothing that will stop this unless you stop all contact - difficult when you're trying to provide a reassuring presence and aid projects etc.

I wonder what the Sharia Law sentence for Murder is? Because that is all 'honour killings' are. How can it 'restore honour' to have a murder in the family, when the whole point of honour is to act properly and respectfully towards others!

Edited to add: Of course non-Muslims kill too, but I do not see it characterised as 'for honour', something about that is deeply disturbing. Killers need to be held up as an example of those who have done wrong, not those who have acted honourably and are to be emulated. Glorifying murder is just beyond the pale, whatever culture you are from.

[Rudolph]

Those evil muslims. :roll:

Glad we non-muslims don´t kill each other.

Oh, brother. Bumped your head? :bash:

[MPNFL]

note: not all Muslims are crazy facist idiots.

but i gotta question: are British soldiers allowed to interact with the native population at that level (becoming close and having personal relationships)?

I know in the US Army, at least from how i've been trained, it's best not to get involved at such a level...or maybe that has recently changed as well?

[Mordoror]

AFAIK those honor killing have nothing to do with religion (altough actually they are mainly done in islamic areas) but moreover with some twisted retarded clanic or tribe mentality
You can find this as well as in Kurdish mountain settlements, Albanians villages (and yes they are muslim) but also Sicilia/Sadaignia/Corsica (and no here they are not muslims) or India (and among none muslim ones)

You can find it for any reasons (remember a Kurd young women who was killed because she fall in love for another muslim guy but he was not kurd).
You can find it (under another form) in south america (and yes here it is not the women who will directly suffer but a field battle between villages with dozens of wounded or killed because a village guy was not "fully" respectful of a young women of another village is not less stupid)

the point is only : how does the concerned country justice deals with this issue

and PS :yes it is disgusting and should be dealt with the most extrem measure

[Gulag]

Welcome in the 21st centruy...sometimes its like medieval
Sad story anway.
RIP

Too often...

[Martel]

Animals ...

[gaijinsamurai]

I know this murderer does not reflect ALL Muslims, but for the police to have arrested him does reflect on the Iraqi community and Basra. And it should have an effect on how we Westerners feel about sacrificing our soldiers and Marines to help this society.

RIP to the girl.

Rest in Pieces to her father.

[Warlord]

Muslims have been struggling with their image these past few years, perhaps decade to the point of changing the meaning of Islam as a "religion of peace" from "submission to God" just so to appease the world. Then you have these kinds of situations, where you will see very few Muslims speak out against it.

Although honor killing isn't exclusive to Muslims/Islam. There are other forms of violence in the guise of preserving or protecting ones honor.

[mas-36]

Time for the solidier to go perform an honor killing of his own...

I would support that. It's time these people join the rest of us in the new millenia, even if we have to do it at the point of a gun. Our decendants, and quite possible theirs as well, will be grateful. If not, then we should really stop trying so hard to convince ourselves of unrealistic happy endings and let them fend for themselves until there is no one left.

My patience with the entire ME has almost run out.

[Weasel]

Now you know that is a sweeping statement.

There's a bloody butcher in every race, and a peacenik in every race too.

Spot the irony!

[Britboy]

If you try to impose massive societal change like that with the threat of force, it'll only entrench their resistance to it.

What to do is a difficult subject...

Whilst some may feel uncomfortable about criticising those who act in the name of their religion (or claim to at least), I feel that the majority of Muslims do not condone this sort of action at all. You do get extremists of all groups who, worse luck, get everyone tarred with the same brush. There are Christian extremists, but mainstream Christian society is not blamed for their acts. So lets bare in mind that whilst this is massively wrong, it hardly applies to all; rather, it is probably a small minority of hardliners, much like any other extreme viewpoint.

[Calanen]

Whilst some may feel uncomfortable about criticising those who act in the name of their religion (or claim to at least), I feel that the majority of Muslims do not condone this sort of action at all.


Then why wouldnt they charge the guy with killing his daughter?

[Doggonit55]

Those evil muslims. :roll:

Glad we non-muslims don´t kill each other.

You've been trolling here for ages. I respect that, you Achtundsechsziger.

Tell me, how much granola do you crunch whilst weaving your hemp and listen to Marx on CD?

No... let me rephrase that. Why do you come here when you obviously dislike anything and everything to do with the military and always make snide little subversive comments? I'm truly curious. I hope I'm wrong about you.

[Mordoror]

Then why wouldnt they charge the guy with killing his daughter?

yes that's the true question
some answers : corrupted law enforcement forces ?
links with some top important tribe leaders ?
some f*** retarded respect of tradition ?
do not want to have a blood bath because pissing off the rest of the "brothers/cousins/brothers in law/grandpa ....etc"
a mix of everything above ?

[usa320]

Federal charges should be brought so police from baghdad can arrest him.

The Police Chief in Basra should be removed for not following Federal law. People like him are what are creating the secretarianism and preventing a strong national identity of iraq to emerge.

[Bulletproof]

And now the father and his family are after the wife... just great.

[Fade]

Killing off your own genetic offspring is antithetical to biology and perhaps even evolution itself. The father and co. should take it a step further and choke themselves to death too, to complete the cycle.

[Military-G]

These sort of killings just like the one where the kurdish girl was stoned to death with the whole village looking on and not giving a **** (made me sick beyond belief) should really be forced down the throat of the iraqi government ... its sick and barbaric and they just let the murderers walk in the name of some "honour" BS .... I wish our governments would really ram it down the throats of the Iraqi government to sort it out ... If they cant stop individuals acting out they can atleast sentence them accordingly. Its nothing short of a disgrace.

[PennyWise]

Rest in Pieces to her father.

Sadly he is still alive... What we should do is rip him open and give him the good ol' "William Wallace" style execution.

[pacifist]

The father was arrested, held for two hours, then released without charge. 'Not much can be done when we have an "honour killing",' said Sgt Ali Jabbar of Basra police. 'You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws.'


Not allowed to fall in love? :roll:

Oh, the beauty of religion.

[deagle]

if its in accordance with their laws, we can't and shouldn't do much (we can persuade, but thats about as much as you can do).

[Bia]

And King George told us mission accomplished and they love us.




Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[wicked_hind]

Time for the solidier to go perform an honor killing of his own...

Too bad the public would call that murder as well if he did that :-(. Personally, I'm for it in this case, and yet that won't bring the girl back. R.I.P.

[3rdMillhouse]

Hooray for islam and it's 1400 yrs religious laws.

[Calanen]

if its in accordance with their laws, we can't and shouldn't do much (we can persuade, but thats about as much as you can do).

I doubt its a law on the books in Basra. It was in Kurdistan until 2002.

What was removed, I think - was the justification defence for a husband disciplining his wife in the Iraqi Penal Code. Even if that is still there in Basra, this would not cover this circumstance.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Please do not view all muslims like this it is a few rotten apples that are giving us all a bad name. These honor killings are not allowed. Before Islam came to the Middle East the Arabs where digging holes putting the live daughters in them and covering them up, honor killings then in Islam they banished these and the Arabs still do it. Also please note the middle east is not the only area that has Muslims there are Muslims in Europe (exception of Arabs that moved there), Central Asia and South East Asia they you do not hear much about them too much because they do not do stuff like this.

[Flamming_Python]

I think there is a very simple way to get rid of it.

Anyone who practices Honor Killings, should be shot... p-)


Please do not view all muslims like this it is a few rotten apples that are giving us all a bad name. These honor killings are not allowed. Before Islam came to the Middle East the Arabs where digging holes putting the live daughters in them and covering them up, honor killings then in Islam they banished these and the Arabs still do it. Also please note the middle east is not the only area that has Muslims there are Muslims in Europe (exception of Arabs that moved there), Central Asia and South East Asia they you do not hear much about them too much because they do not do stuff like this.

Are you from Kazakhstan?

[Ulytau]

First Sad..

It is love wont care nationality,religion,race or other thing..

About honour killings its not about religion but traditional thing also i readin about similar problems about this issue..

in Turkiye a Turk and Yazidi love gonna be diplomatic problem cause one of Yazidi deputy in EU ''Deputy name Feleknas Uca ''

Still there is many sick things about this issue too like before killing rapin to his daugther or sister etc.I know true there was similar problems at other countries etc too..Mentality need to change it wont change anything with blaming to Muslims cause its not about religion.Also there is many different religous orders and in Iraq,Tribe system works more then other issues..

RIP to girl..

And I hope soldier will be good too..

[Col.O'neill]

Welcome to islamic sharia law folks

[OWTLAW]

Sad stuff. R.I.P to the girl.

[IraGlacialis]

That action was completely disgusting. R.I.P. to her, hope the soldier can cope with it, and may karma be a bitch to that sicko of a father.


Though like what some have said, this is not as religious as it is cutural.
Stoning of the Kurdish girl was not done by Muslims but by Yazidis (which have little, if anything, to do with Islam). Same as "honor" killings done among extremely conservative Sikh communities as well.

[DevilDogHopeful]

This upsets me. A 17 year old girl killed because she fell in love with a British Soldier. Someone kill these sick pieces of sh*t.

[Bro Jangles]

Anyone who practices Honor Killings, should be shot... p-)





no not shot, beaten to death with an e-tool

[Karaahmetoglu]

I think there is a very simple way to get rid of it.

Anyone who practices Honor Killings, should be shot... p-)



Are you from Kazakhstan?


Yes i am from Kazakhstan but do not live there.:-( Still live in a Turkic country though!:)

R.I.P for the Girl. Sad just because of what she thought she got killed for it.. Sad.

[kerfuffled]

This is just another reason why democracy will never work in the middle east.:-( Stupid chauvanistic and quasi-religious paranoia holds these people in the stone age.:bash:

[dava]

lso please note the middle east is not the only area that has Muslims there are Muslims in Europe (exception of Arabs that moved there), Central Asia and South East Asia they you do not hear much about them too much because they do not do stuff like this.

17 honour killings in Belgium over the last 5 years.
May not sound too much but still quite staggering this also happens in the western world. Mostly for the same reason, daughter/sister dating a non-muslim.

I think it happens a lot more than we hear about, it mostly doenst get that far as a murder but the girl gets relocated to country of origin or is forced to marry some guy she barely knows.

I befriended a turkish girl last year in college and she said her father would just not allow her to marry a non-turkish man.

[khalifah]

Don't you just love it when there are "lopeholes" when religion and justification come together...:-(

One more death religion needs to answer for:-(

[ren0312]

Yes i am from Kazakhstan but do not live there.:-( Still live in a Turkic country though!:)

R.I.P for the Girl. Sad just because of what she thought she got killed for it.. Sad.

Hi Borat!p-)

[sreto]

feel that the majority of Muslims do not condone this sort of action at all.

Sure sure, thats what we always hear, majority of muslims this majority of muslims that, nobody does **** about it, nobody protests they all just sit back and say islam doesnt condone this, majority of muslims dont support this and it keeps on happening.But god forbid you draw a photo of mohammed then muslim outrage, worldwide protests, burning embassies and a couple of sympathizers agreeing with them. this world is doomed

[Annihilator9112]

i just cant belive a father would do that, i thought familly comes first. I tohught u should care for your familly but kill your own daughter for a really stupid reason as this? that guy was
1. mentally insane
2. crazy religious guy
3. hated his daughter
4. all of the above

[sisqo]

Another sad story, can't believe this things can still happen in the 21st century. R.I.P to the girl.

[Karaahmetoglu]

17 honour killings in Belgium over the last 5 years.
May not sound too much but still quite staggering this also happens in the western world. Mostly for the same reason, daughter/sister dating a non-muslim.

I think it happens a lot more than we hear about, it mostly doenst get that far as a murder but the girl gets relocated to country of origin or is forced to marry some guy she barely knows.

I befriended a turkish girl last year in college and she said her father would just not allow her to marry a non-turkish man.

Well it is a shame this should not happen, I seriously think that Turkish Girl will not get killed if she does marry a non-turkish man, I hope so, also do not use personal examples because no one on an online forum would know if this was true or not. Also I would like to say that no all people from Turkey are Turkish. Like in Kazakhstan I think something like 25% of the population is Russian they are the ones giving us a bad name like Borat. I think out of the whole Turkish population only some 40 million are true Turks that is why in any Genetic testing in Turkey needs to get at least 20% of the total population, especially in Belgium most of the "Turks" there are really Kurdish. Again R.I.P for this Girl. This should not happen, this is not allowed in our religion please do not take example of all Muslims like this. It is just a few rotten apples.

R.I.P for the Girl.

[SrB-23Q]

how could someone kill their own child???wtf
no matter what the child did/dose this should never happen

[LRPV]

Another sad story, can't believe this things can still happen in the 21st century. R.I.P to the girl.

Unfortunately not everyone is living in the 21st century...

[vinny_121_ND]

rest in peace. Completely barbaric to kill her. In the Koran, it forbids the union of a female muslim to marry a non muslim, but nothing about having feelings for non muslims.

[AreKay7]

Obviously not all Muslims are this extreme in their beliefs. Do I think this guy was wrong in doing what he did? Absolutely. Do I think he should be punished? Absolutely. Do I think its his fault? ...well yes and no.

This strict law is all this man (and a large portion of the ME) has ever known. This may seem primitive and barbaric to westerners, but you have to see the whole picture. From the day he popped out of the womb this is the way he has been taught. You really can't blame him as thats the only way he's knows.

Having said that it saddens (and sickens) me to think that these people hate us so much that they would kill their own daughter just for befriending a western soldier. At least the mother had enough sense to leave the father after the fact.

Edit- And just so we clear this up, I'm not condoning in any way what the man did. I think he should be put on trial and executed. I'm just trying to look at it from both sides.

[Ritual]

To sound as they do..

Put them to the sword. :-(

[Billy No Mates]

Having said that it saddens (and sickens) me to think that these people hate us so much that they would kill their own daughter just for befriending a western soldier. At least the mother had enough sense to leave the father after the fact.

I don't think its 'us' so much as its anyone not of their 'tribe' that elicts this sort of response,like you say its a deep seated cultural concept that will take generations to alter,as others have said it would be good if the central government could take action if the local cops are unable or unwilling to deal with these crimes for what they are,cold calculated murder .
I hope the soldier involved finds some peace,i hope the girls father never does

[Excalibur]

RIP to the girl.

[JQ24]

Sad story. :-(

I just don't see how killing your own daughter would bring honor back to the family. But then again, I don't live in that kind of culture so I wouldn't know. I'm just an outsider with a western "civilized" culture view looking in.

It's kind of interesting how some cultures involve taking a life or one's own life in order to restore honor. Seppuku or hara-kiri for the samurai warriors comes to mind.

[Annihilator9112]

they are bored and want to do something they think is cool (samurai warriors).

[Lt. James Anderson]

Maybe he should've provided condoms and room for fcuking and then he wouldn't be considered backward? I don't know what they teach to the British Army but in the US Army you're not suppose to be doing stuff like that ...

Arabs don't take stuff like that lightly and to them it is not "falling in love" but whoring around ... IMO, it has more to do with Arab culture than a religion.

[Dercius]

Sad to hear that in 21st century, lots of people down there, and coming up here, keep their stoneage way of thinking. Freedom and human rights, people with stoneage mind set just cant cant get those concepts.

[Bia]

Welcome to islamic sharia law folks

Yes...and it's their country and their laws.

We wouldnt tolerate another coming here and changing our laws.

She should have listened to her dad.... I always did!

:P

[deli_dumrul]

Turkish newspaper reports that the mother managed to divorce the man but after being threatened and seriously beaten (her arm was broken). She is currently in hiding and working for prevention of honor killings.

RIP

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/1258/5471258.jpg

[SoSo]

Because it happens all the time. Even in Europe young muslim girls have a lot of "accidental" deaths..falling off from a balcony etc.

I have heard that in Europe, the battered womens' shelters are filled with Muslim women.

[deadskull]

Also I would like to say that no all people from Turkey are Turkish. Like in Kazakhstan I think something like 25% of the population is Russian they are the ones giving us a bad name like Borat.
R.I.P for the Girl.
Care to explain that? How are Russians giving average Kazakhs a bad name?

[Karaahmetoglu]

Care to explain that? How are Russians giving average Kazakhs a bad name?

I guess you have not seen Borat.

[IraGlacialis]

^^^^^
The guy who plays Borat is a British Jew for crying out loud.

[Karaahmetoglu]

^^^^^
The guy who plays Borat is a British Jew for crying out loud.

This is going of topic, this Girl has passed away and even on her thread on this forum it is getting derailed please lets go back to the main issue on hand. Also as deli_dumrul said, her mother has fled and is hiding probably for her life, if I was the someone in the coalition forces I would try to get the man detained before he causes more harm.

[oxxi]

what happened is certainly a shame for humanity.
we should all ask ourselves what has made islam be so backwards compare to other cultures around the world, and why do most of the muslims in middle-east & africa still lives like they did in the dark ages. (maybe a bit over the top but you get what i try to say)

[LazerLordz]

Please do not view all muslims like this it is a few rotten apples that are giving us all a bad name. These honor killings are not allowed. Before Islam came to the Middle East the Arabs where digging holes putting the live daughters in them and covering them up, honor killings then in Islam they banished these and the Arabs still do it. Also please note the middle east is not the only area that has Muslims there are Muslims in Europe (exception of Arabs that moved there), Central Asia and South East Asia they you do not hear much about them too much because they do not do stuff like this.

South East Asian Muslims by and large practise a more moderate form of Islam, and in Indonesia, it's fairly syncretic too.

I would classify this barbarism more attributable to a mix of culture and their interpretation of religion than religion itself.

[LazerLordz]

Sad story. :-(

I just don't see how killing your own daughter would bring honor back to the family. But then again, I don't live in that kind of culture so I wouldn't know. I'm just an outsider with a western "civilized" culture view looking in.

It's kind of interesting how some cultures involve taking a life or one's own life in order to restore honor. Seppuku or hara-kiri for the samurai warriors comes to mind.

And we should also note that cultures move on and adapt to the prevailing norms lest they fade away.

The world's many diverse cultures, by and large, do not condone the murder of one's own offspring to save one's own excuse for a manhood.

[Fiber]

This case shows a lack of respect for basic human rights and the lack of a satisfactory legal system. This kind of behaviour wasn't too uncommon in Europe a couple of centuries ago. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a couple of centuries for some parts of the world to catch up.

To change these kinds of attitudes you need to strike down hard on those conducting these monstrous acts. To do so you need a legislative power willing pass strict laws. To get this legislative power willing, in a democracy, you need a public will to impose such laws. This again needs a change of attitude in the general population. Classic chicken and the egg.

What the western world can do is to try to influence the governments, showing them that taking the high road pays off. With every deal there should be strings attached. At every meeting you should nag about human rights.

Or we can just conduct business as usual and tell ourselves it's not our problem.

RIP.

[timetraveller]

What happen is terrible and beyond belief , You can change the Goverment in Iraq but you can't change the peoples own religious beliefs not matter because That itself is the problem with Religion each one has it's own set of rules and is different even if there beliefs may not be to the liking of others .. but thats Religion and why such religions were created ..by those Founders

There is religious cults and people who preach the word of God that a take advantage of Minors , And recently in America where the parents refused there daughter medical care ... all because of there Religious beliefs ..

[blackshadow69]

That is terrible what happened to her but im surprised from some people here they think that all muslims behave like that:roll:

[pacifist]

This kind of behaviour wasn't too uncommon in Europe a couple of centuries ago.

Never heard of that.

Maybe in the balkans?

[PanzerMaster]

For many "unenlighted" (I wrote other terms but fear of banning prevented me to post those) cultures, expecially those who practize polygamy and arranged marriages, girls are a resources... a currency.

Giving the girl as spouse to a wealthy influent man can relatively improve the condition of the family. That wealthy influent man, naturally, pretend a virgin girl so her offspring (in the age of DNA paternity test you can say) is sure to be fathered by him.

That is the explanation of the problem. The solution? A mix of execution of those murderers and education of who is left.

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=565681&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490


The Iraqi father who brutally murdered his teenage daughter in an "honour killing" for befriending a British soldier in Basra has said that he has no regrets, and that death "was the least she deserved". Abdel-Qader Ali boasted that he would have slaughtered his 17-year-old daughter Rand at birth if he had know of the shame she would bring on him and his family.

He proudly told how his two sons helped with the murder, bragging that they were "men enough to help me end the life of someone who had just brought shame to our lives."


…The 46-year-old father holds a key post in the Iraqi health ministry, and was quickly released from police custody following the murder because the officers who arrested him were full of praise for his actions.


…"I have no regrets, and I had the support of all my friends who are fathers like me, and who know that what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours their religion.


wow

[INAT]

Damn what a effing shame.Does'nt killing your child also bring shame to you as a parent?

[Jarhead]

Its a repost.
It was already posted 2-3 weeks ago.

[Orbiter]

RIP girl.
Unfortunately such crimes are considered as normal behavior in Islamic societies.
Sorry for saying that, but I'm not surprised.

[RallyPointCebu]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=565681&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490



wow

no sh!T! wtf! :bash:

[Gunbird]

This kind of thing is extra-not tolerated during wartime, with occupying forces. The same happened in the UK, in WW2. Though in that case, assasins killed girls that got friendly with Germans.

[Billy No Mates]

This kind of thing is extra-not tolerated during wartime, with occupying forces. The same happened in the UK, in WW2. Though in that case, assasins killed girls that got friendly with Germans.

Really?just how many British women fell victim to such practices during WW2 .

[PeterG]

This kind of thing is extra-not tolerated during wartime, with occupying forces. The same happened in the UK, in WW2. Though in that case, assasins killed girls that got friendly with Germans.

I suspect these pathetic scumbags would have been happy to kill the poor girl even if the lad was an aid worker, or whatever. That he was a soldier was probably not why she was killed.

[Billy No Mates]

I suspect these pathetic scumbags would have been happy to kill the poor girl even if the lad was an aid worker, or whatever. That he was a soldier was probably not why she was killed.

The Guardian newspaper ran a chilling interview with the father who claimed his only regret was not killing the girl at birth....your right in saying the fact he was a soldier was probably not a major factor in what happened as these sort of murders are a common problem in Basra and elsewhere .

[LRPV]

Damn what a effing shame.Does'nt killing your child also bring shame to you as a parent?

In Arab cultures the father owns the children.....

Warlord may be able to comment but as I understand it, for murder in Saudi you can buy off the penalty with blood money. However this may not be the same with the charge of killing a father... ie fathers have special 'rights'.....

[deli_dumrul]

Turkish newspaper reports that the mother, 41 year old Leyla Hüseyin, was gunned down trying to escape to Jordan on May 17th.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Turkish newspaper reports that the mother, 41 year old Leyla Hüseyin, was gunned down trying to escape to Jordan on May 17th.


Rest In Peace for both the Mother and the Daughter this is tragic.

[IraGlacialis]

Turkish newspaper reports that the mother, 41 year old Leyla Hüseyin, was gunned down trying to escape to Jordan on May 17th.
Damn that's depressing. Any more info? :-(
R.I.P.

[ren0312]

Damn that's depressing. Any more info? :-(
R.I.P.

How come that British soldier's unit did not do a little payback, the nature of which would not be fit to print.

[vinny_121_ND]

that's tragic to hear. Rest in peace. Sickening again.

[deli_dumrul]

Damn that's depressing. Any more info? :-(
R.I.P.

Finally located an article in English.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/01/iraq

[Billy No Mates]

So sad,a tragic end to a tragic episode .

R.I.P to mother and daughter .

[domokun]

R.I.P, tragic finish for the story. Her husband seems to be getting "get out jail free"- card second time. It's good indication that barbarianism winning in Iraq, society that leaves murderers unpunished and glorifies 'em deservs nothing more than stigma of barbarian.

[Rudolph]

That's a sick world.

[baboon6]

How come that British soldier's unit did not do a little payback, the nature of which would not be fit to print.

Because it's illegal?

[baboon6]

R.I.P, tragic finish for the story. Her husband seems to be getting "get out jail free"- card second time. It's good indication that barbarianism winning in Iraq, society that leaves murderers unpunished and glorifies 'em deservs nothing more than stigma of barbarian.

Nonsense, the surge is working, the good guys are winning. I know because President Bush said so.

[Karaahmetoglu]

No but what the British Marines could have done was save the mom and put her in there protection and have her educate Muslims in England about how honor killings are not allowed in the religion.


Note* I am not putting any blame on the British Troops, this is just an advice.

[baboon6]

No but what the British Marines could have done was save the mom and put her in there protection and have her educate Muslims in England about how honor killings are not allowed in the religion.


Note* I am not putting any blame on the British Troops, this is just and advice.

Isn't that the responsibility of the Iraqi Police?

[Karaahmetoglu]

Isn't that the responsibility of the Iraqi Police?

Yes probably is there responsibility. You think they going to do anything about it?

[vinny_121_ND]

Yes probably is their responsibility. You think they going to do anything about it?

They can't. The law let the killer get away with murder. It's a different culture in the arab lands. Women are to be dominated and controlled by men. If men can't ... well this is what happens. This isn't a bunch of freedom fighters we're dealing with.

[Billy No Mates]

Yes probably is there responsibility. You think they going to do anything about it?

Probably not but we have to give them the chance to do the right thing ultimately it will do a great deal of harm if we do everything for them,we can't impose our values only hope that in the fullness of time they might realise this is one of theirs that they can turn their backs on .
It is frustrating that more couldnt be done to protect the mother but even if she had of made it to Jordan i doubt she would of been safe there either .