did the us get there apache back?

[martinexsquaddie]

does anybody know if the captured apache was recovered?

[Argyll]

Maybe Saddam will use it to flee Iraq!!?
The Apache was given an extremely bad write up during GW2,very damning indeed!!
The Army Air Corp Apache can't fire their hellfires due to problems with the Guidance wires entangling onparts of the chopper!!
It wasn't used in the Yugoslavia conflict either as it was deemed too risky or something like that!!!............WTF.......was it not designed to operate in the European Cental Plains against the Bad old Russkies,It may have performed well in GW1,thats cause nobody shot back at it!!

[martinexsquaddie]

sending it off to fight during the day big mistake
its a lethal night fighting machine but if you can see you can hose it down with smallarms
IMPO there going to have to rethink the death of the Tank for a few years to come yet :lol:

[budanski]

The AH-64 Apache that was seen carted off by the Iraqis was eventually located at Saddam Int'l Airport. They coordinated 2 JDAMs to destroy it and confirmed with S.F. units that were already in Bagdhad. The next day was when the Marines came in and captured the airport. That's what I remembered reading about this.

[budanski]

Not exactly guys. Although no system is perfect, the Apache did fine in Iraq. They were just used wrong.


April 9, 2003: U.S. Army AH-64 Apache gunship pilots went into Iraq with the intention of going off on their own and hitting enemy targets far away from friendly troops. This led to a lot of shot up Apaches. Part of this was due to the paucity of targets, but mostly it was due to a lot of Iraqis down their with AK-47s and heavy machine-guns (14.5mm and up). Early actions like this left about 30 Apaches* damaged, and two shot down. But the Apaches were saved by other demands for their services by their own ground troops. Attacks on supply convoys, and combat troops wanting more air support, took the Apaches away from those long range missions. An Apache flying over a supply convoy tended to discourage Iraqi attacks. Combat units were more effective with a few Apaches working with them. These new missions gave the Apaches more targets, and less ground fire directed at them.*


April 28, 2003: The U.S. Army's AH-64 Apache gunships are sturdy, but they aren't bulletproof. When 34 Apaches were sent off on the evening of March 24th to attack the Republican Guard Medina division, hundreds, if not thousands, of Iraqis along the way took out their weapons and fired at the sound of the Apaches in the night sky. Before long, just about every weapon the Medina division had, including artillery, was being fired at the sound of the Apaches. The American gunships were taking lots of damage and soon retreated. One Apache was brought down and its two man crew captured. Of the remainder, 27 were not flyable the next day, and required considerable patching up before they could go back into action. Most of the damage was machine-gun bullets. None, obviously, enough to blow an Apache out of the air, but enough to eventually drive them off and keep them grounded for repairs for days afterward. The army is still studying exactly what happened, but the Apaches were not used in such large numbers, so far from friendly troops for the rest of the war. One "Charge of the Flight Brigade" was enough.


May 20, 2003: The experience of U.S. Army AH-64 Apache gunships has revived a debate that's been going on since the end of the Cold War. On one side you have the Cold Warriors who see the AH-64s flying into firing positions and then hovering as they get off shots at enemy armored vehicles. On the other side you have a lot of the AH-64 pilots, who see a whole new battlefield (and now have Afghanistan and Iraq experience to back them up.) The pilots want the AH-64s to keep moving on the battlefield and basically be the close support for the ground troops, as well as their overhead observers. This is what the AH-64s were successful at in Iraq and Afghanistan. On the other hand, several dozen AH-64s got shot up when they tried a Cold War era attack on a Republican Guard division. The pilots, being pilots, have a wish list of AH-64 improvements that they are pushing. This includes a more powerful engine, more armor and a better night vision system. The pilots have experience on their side, and some of the army aviation generals are leaning towards seeing things the pilots way.

[Argyll]

Pehaps a change of Doctrine is required Bud,cause if a supposedly crap army can all point their gats at the sound of incoming choppers,and fill the sky with lead,then I'd hate to think of what an organised and professional Army can do

I thought the Idea was to use the Apache's weapons platform(Hellfire)as a stand off weapon,to prevent such battle damage occuring,to keep it out of harms way,this then asks the questions to the accounts of CENTCOM about BDA,surely it is folly to send any kind of A/c into an area where,there are such large concentrations of equipment,and troops,without having them "softened" up,and reducing their combat effectiveness..........so much for preping the battlefield!!Someone didn't do their job here,and I'm beggining to doubt the authenticity and accuracy of what CENTCOM was telling the world from their Million Dollar TV station!!
Where was the BIA a/c when they came under such intense fire?

[Merik]

Everyone is still using Cold War tactics so they just sit there thinking they are oblivious to anything else.

I miss the Cobra, you could dive in on a tank and nail his ass then get out of there before anyone else knew what happened.

[ibstolidude]

army air corps - :)

- It was used extensively in Kosovo based out out both Camp Able Sentry for several years prior in Norther Macedonia and then at Camp Bondsteel a fire base designed to support the large areas required to house the helicopters. They were not used as a lead element as any modern army would all the helicopters to pass using the natural defilade of the mountains and spray the hell out of them once they pass. NATO would not did not seek to enter Kosovo from the North as it is Serbia proper or Montenegro and was not in the mandate, the remainder of the country is absolutely surrounded by mountain ranges. The higher a helicopter goes the thinner the air, the less speed and manuverability it have.


- I agree stalking fixed positions and prepared defenses in a helicopter does not sound too promising, but that helicopter is WICKED on the move. But the concept of moving the firing line 100 feet into the air to move slowly and shoot (assuming that the article is correct) does seem asinine.

[Scrim]

The Apache has lots of nice toys (when they work), but you cant beat the old Cobra for reliability. Thats one of the reasons other than money of course, that the USMC never adopted the Apache.

[ibstolidude]

totally unfamiliar with the Cobra - I don't eventhinkI have ever seen one operating. But I have heard Marines rave about it.

[Ratamacue]

The Cobra was the first dedicated gunship in history, the first being the AH-1G ( http://www.aircav.com/cobra/ahgal06/ahgal06.html ) in Vietnam. The Marines have used a twin-engine version better suited to seaborne operations ever since. The current model is the AH-1W ( http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/supcobra/ ), which does not have as advanced systems as the Apache, but is inherently more reliable.

The next generation model is the AH-1Z ( http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/aircraft/military/bell_ah-1z.html ), which has a four-blade rotor, more powerful engines, the most advanced avionics around, the works. The Marines will be the only in the US Military taking these, and I'm pretty sure they're the first group in the world that'll receive them.

[Argyll]

Army Air Corps..........are the British Rotary/Fixed winged Regiment within the British Army.........hope that clears up the surprise!!
I read somewhere Stoli that the Apache never left Macedonia during the ousting of Milosevich!,and was not used against FYA assets at all!
Perhaps an Apache expert can clarify this too,but were there not problems with the Weapons system,that maent the chopper had to be almost at a standstill to engage with it's main armament(Hellfires).This will be true if they are the laser guided variant,as they would need a clear line of site ,which means no movement!!
The AH64D Longbow made under license by Westland has been dogged with Weapons systems problems,such as the guidance wire issues,and is causing the delay in having these choppers Operational,I'm certain they're now 2 years over due!!.If the UK version has thses problems,it would be fairly presumtious,to say that perhaps the US version has also got the same problem,if not then you sold us a dummy!!!

[ibstolidude]

I can speak from 'standing and watching' knowledge that the Apaches were used in Kosovo. - at one point they were grounded after 2 men were lost in 2 crashes while training crashes in Albania during the air campaign over Servia- due to Faulty tail rotor assemblies.
I can also tell you that most ground troops sang their praises after Opertation Anaconda in A-stan.
During other ops in other places - they were used in Bosnia (all through out the Balkans - albania - macedonia - croatia) , Korea, Haiti, Gulf 1, panama + more.

As far as problem in the use of Hellfire missles on the fly, that you would need to take up with a technician, and I am not. I have no idea nor did I or would comment on that.

But it is my understanding that the Apache would set up a PFZ priority fire zone and can target all radar objects inside that area fire the missles and lower themselves out of LOS (Line of Sight) and the missles will each be assigned a specific target and then hit. It aslo my understanding that a PFZ can be passed from platform to platform and/or a helicopter in LOS can set the PFZ and a second helo can use to fire on.
- Accuracy is based on the explanaition from a CWO weapons officer about a 18 months ago over food- I could remember the whole thing wrong. I'm not much of a hobbiest so I never researched the thing.

I think that is has had a lot of problems, but it is a very technical piece of equipment and the doctrine is ever changing.. One can research that the doctrine they were developing during the kosovo time frame was new to the helicopter and they are still attempting to determine it's best usage.. even today it is a large debate among commanders.

[Argyll]

YEp thats correct about the PFZ's
And I'm cool about their uses too in Bosnia,just remember seeing a report about them grounded that was all!!

[ibstolidude]

You are correct 100% they were grounded during the air war but in Albania they had conducted a couple of weeks of training excersizes after 2 crashes...later there very well may have been other incidents I am unware of..

[Seiyuuki]

The Apache has lots of nice toys (when they work), but you cant beat the old Cobra for reliability. Thats one of the reasons other than money of course, that the USMC never adopted the Apache.

Plus the fact you can't really land and find enough room to park enough Apache on an Amphibious Assault Carrier.

[Seiyuuki]

Any of you ever flown an Apache in combat?

[HMMcrewchief]

Any Apache or Cobra sent into that Medina fiasco without further and heavier support such as A-10's would be knocked out of the sky. I am normaly not a supporter of the Apache but the fact is only one was forced down is a testiment to the skills of army pilots and there machines. This was a intel, planning screw up and a bit of luck that an Iraqi officer heard the choppers on there way and called in a warning on his cell phone. So the element of surprise was lost, and there was no backup to help the Apache's to break the engagement. I still stand by my good ol whiskey cobra though, the Keep It Simple Stupid logic I think should apply to forward deployed combat and support helicopters.