ithuania could block the EU's efforts to sign the treaty with Russia

[lightfire]

News just in. It seems, that Lithuania is blocing EU treaty with Russia over some issues. Therefore EU commision will not have the approval to start the negotiations with the third party (Russia)

So far sources are either old, or not in english:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7367742.stm


"We believe that not all our remarks were taken into account, so negotiations have to continue [within the EU]. We cannot accept this proposal," said Violeta Gaizauskaite, a spokesperson for the country's foreign ministry.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080429/106149982.html

^^
in russian version of RIA novosti it says, (according to the dutch diplomat), that Lithuania is blocing the treaty, and "this is what I've feared of" - says dutch diplomat.


Baisically I'm slightly confused over the situation, but as far as the issues - I would approve the standing for the national interests here.

And these issues are:

1. Energetic security and renewal of pipeline "Druzhba" (Friendship), that has been "damaged" for than a year. Russian were "unable to fix it" and refuses to do so, without any serious motivation.

2. Solving the frozen conflicts concerning Georgia and Moldova.

3. Helping with the case of missing buisnessman (which has dissapeared in Kaliningrad last year). Russia refuses to provide any help.

4. Ensure REAL russian cooperation in the January 13th and Medininkai June 31st masacare cases of 1991. The suspects and responsible ones legally hide/live in Russia and the country refuses to give them up, despite the signed extradiction treaty.


All of those issues have been raised numerous of times in private and official negotiations with Russia. The result - zero reaction. Therefore I perfectly understand this radical approach - "If you don't want to cooperate, then neither shall we on the same manner"

Now the first issue is the easiest to solve. Of the second I highly doubt, and a compromise would be enough here, all sides keeping their faces clean and proud. But the problem with georgian relations is obvious, as well as with Moldova-Padniestr situation, where Russia does not keep their promises.

The other two issues are clearly personal ones and should be solved privatelly, on two side negotiations level. however, if Russia is refusing even to talk about it, well then there's no other way.

I hope it's understandable.

[Afro-European]

[quote=lightfire;3212041]

2. Solving the frozen conflicts concerning Georgia and Moldova.



What does Lithuania to do with this conflict? Why is it even sticking its nose into that?

[blackshadow69]

That is normal...they will stick there nose evrywhere .. its like some goverments in eastern europe who r ready to do evrything what uncle same will say:)

[lightfire]

That is normal...they will stick there nose evrywhere .. its like some goverments in eastern europe who r ready to do evrything what uncle same will say:)

you prick, we do what we want, and no uncle sams direct this.Apparently you cannot imagine that small states can have their own foreign policy. Perhaps that's how it works in your country, but not in mine.



What does Lithuania to do with this conflict? Why is it even sticking its nose into that?

it is one of the directions of our foreign policy. I personally think it's bit one sided and hardlly influentual, however, if this matter works on the EU level, then why not? The goal is to help former ex soviet republics, in this case Georgia in their relations with Russia, esspecially when they have such problems there, and we don't (at least on the scale of Georgia - Russia relations). Baisically, easing the tenssion and advocate smaller side. Mind you, that is not valid in case of violent cracdown on the protests in Georgia.

[AlexMartin2]

lightfire (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=15344), are you from Lithuania?

I can say, that Lithuania opinion doesn't matter at all. Your goverment may block anything they want, but clearly it is path to nothing.
Some demands are too absurd. It it very foolish to mix Moldova/Georgia issue with case of missing buisnessman, for example.

Also it is extremelly funny (for me, at least) to demand to open pipeline. Dont you agree, that is Russian, and only Russian decision to do so?
It is our oil after all :)

[CPL Trevoga]

Those damn ex-commies can't get along. They want "Druzhba", but acting very unfriendly. No "Druzhba", without druzhba.

[daily666]

lightfire (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=15344), are you from Lithuania?

I can say, that Lithuania opinion doesn't matter at all. Your goverment may block anything they want, but clearly it is path to nothing.
Some demands are too absurd. It it very foolish to mix Moldova/Georgia issue with case of missing buisnessman, for example.

Also it is extremelly funny (for me, at least) to demand to open pipeline. Dont you agree, that is Russian, and only Russian decision to do so?
It is our oil after all :)

Really think it's that simple? The problem is more complex. If it would be like you say the Russian Federation or Gazprom or Transneft (no difference) officials would point that we don't want to make business with you, period. But no, the Russians say they cannot fix the pipline which is allegedly damaged. The pipeline is the way (happily not only) oil gets to the Mozejki Refinery which is owned by Polish Oil Company "ORLEN". The refinery was bought from Yukos at the last moment before the Putin govt. took control over it, and it is the only Refinery in the Baltics. What we think the situation with this pipeline is some sort of reprisal towards the Lithuanian and Polish governments. The Pipeline is a part of "Druhzba" system which carries oil not only to Lithuania but to most European states but only this leg was closed, think why?.

The Moldova/Georgia issue is not how it looks like. Those countries are also important players in the oil&gas game of chess the powers (US, RF and EU) play. Even EU had noticed it's becoming more and more dependant on Russian natural resources, when Putin killed it's Nabucco project by sucking it's co-players into it's own project (Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria). Sadly it all looks like most of the old-EU members leaders and politicians are so easily corrupt that they will be in Putin's pocket sooner or later (like Schroeder did!), while the omnipotent Brussels will become Moscow satellite. OK, that's a bit far-fetched but being in the business it looks like that.

So good luck Lithuania, but don't expect EU to fall in love with this idea.

[lightfire]

lightfire (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=15344), are you from Lithuania?

I can say, that Lithuania opinion doesn't matter at all.

That's exactly your problem. If it doesn't matter, then you'll have no agreement with the EU, period. Stop acting childishlly and arogantlly and then you will have no problems with the EU members.

Everything else about "Druzhba" Daily has already said, nothing to add here. The demands aren't the tools of blackmail, however, if you say "we don't care what you want, say or think" then you should not expect friendly approach and those questions will be and are raised at the higher level, that's in our national interests, and they dare I say, do not contradict with the national interests of Russia, therefore once again - if it doesn't matter to you, well then you can forget the agreement with the EU.

[Igor01]

That's exactly your problem. If it doesn't matter, then you'll have no agreement with the EU, period. Stop acting childishlly and arogantlly and then you will have no problems with the EU members.


There are EU members and then there are EU members. The big boys need the agreement and they will make sure they have it. They may appear to be compliant with the EU bureacracy machinery but when it comes to money and security, they will find a way to gently calm down a hysterical poor relative.

There is nothing new under the sun - yes, they are all "equal" but some are "more equal" than others, ignoring this important fact is a big mistake.

[Mamont]

As usual the main battle is fought in the shadows. Lithuania is just a frontman, who is of little concern, couldn't harm and have a big mouth. It acts as an attention beacon(i am being polite), possibly creating a basis for another media campaighn.

[lightfire]

No, we are standin for our national interests, nomatter of the size, that is all, in someone large ***** complex allows them only to bully, threaten and tease, those are their problems. Any EU member state has a right to veto such decissions, and our country is doing so not because of fun, but because it's impossible to talk with Russia in other way.

[CPL Trevoga]

Since all my homies are in this thread, yo, my wife gave birth to a son. A strong Russian boy, with a touch of Ossetian and Tatar.

[Mamont]

No, we are standin for our national interests, nomatter of the size, that is all, in someone large ***** complex allows them only to bully, threaten and tease, those are their problems. Any EU member state has a right to veto such decissions, and our country is doing so not because of fun, but because it's impossible to talk with Russia in other way. Lightfire, you really need to stop this chest-thumping and memorise at least part of president adamkus speeches and actions toward Russia.. It's a rare example of arroganse and stupidity fueled i presume by his full awareness of personal impunity.

Trevoga - with all my heart i salute you and your wife.

[lightfire]

Since all my homies are in this thread, yo, my wife gave birth to a son. A strong Russian boy, with a touch of Ossetian and Tatar.


congrats man! woot My son was born a month ago, he's tall and strong too :)


Lightfire, you really need to stop this chest-thumping and memorise at least part of president adamkus speeches and actions toward Russia.. It's a rare example of arroganse and stupidity fueled i presume by his full awareness of personal impunity.


exactly what speeches and actions? He's quite moderate and diplomatic president and have always went into a dialog with Russia. Criticising the actions of the russian government or some politics doesn't mean anything anti-russian, but again, he stands for the national interests of his own country. If you refer the 9th of May events, I believe there's no reason to repeat the same 2years old discussion leading to vodka...

[Mamont]

exactly what speeches and actions? Dude, please.. Don't play that "innocent and pure" game here.. You'll loose.. From the totally arrogant and insulting rejection to participate in celebration of the 60 years of Victory to outrageously stupid demand to pay 28 billion and claims that "Russia is fearing Lithuania".. There is such a long list of such events, that we sooner turn old, than finish it.. Simply put, Lightfire, you can't just spit in the face anytime you want and then demand from a man that he will obey your wishes..

[lightfire]

Dude, please.. Don't play that "innocent and pure" game here.. You'll loose.. From the totally arrogant and insulting rejection to participate in celebration of the 60 years of Victory to outrageously stupid demand to pay 28 billion and claims that "Russia is fearing Lithuania".. There is such a long list of such events, that we sooner turn old, than finish it.. Simply put, Lightfire, you can't just spit in the face anytime you want and then demand from a man that he will obey your wishes..

First, the rejection to "celebrate" the 60 years Victory was rationally explained. there was no whish to look at the glorious soldiers marching with soviet flags. Those soldiers and those flags DO NOT bring any great memories, not of liberation, but of opression and killings. Just like if someone would invite to join the parade with swastikas. And that is neither outrageous, nor insulting, russian media and some politicians have infuriated this to the scale of stupidity, that is all.

second, the law of comenstation for the ocupation was signed by the parliament of 1996-2000, it has nothing to do with the president. I'm personally against this law, and I think only a symbolic compensation should be required along with the archives and the embassy buildings in France and Italy, that russians until this day refuses to give back. Those aren't demands, but requests, like in normal civilised world, with argumentations. If one side cannot cope with arguments and acts uncivilised, it's their problem, but there's no need to feel insulted then.

third, there are no claims "Russia is fearing Lithuania", where did you bring this up?

fourth, you have no arguments, only emotions, let's speak with arguments, as equal to equal, putting aside your "Velikaja derzhava" stunts. There is absolutelly nothing outrageous, nor provocative in the requests, get over it.

[Mamont]

Lightfire, you can go with exuses far and away. The point is already clear, no amount of words would cover it.

Interesting - it seems that i know more about glorious man adamkus than you. And as usual, a quick jump to conclusion that i'm russian. Shows quite a lot about way of thinking..

[lightfire]

Lightfire, you can go with exuses far and away. The point is already clear, no amount of words would cover it.

Interesting - it seems that i know more about glorious man adamkus than you. And as usual, a quick jump to conclusion that i'm russian. Shows quite a lot about way of thinking..

it's going far and away to the OT.

PM

[daily666]

Since all my homies are in this thread, yo, my wife gave birth to a son. A strong Russian boy, with a touch of Ossetian and Tatar.

Congrats buddy! Have a shot of vodka "na zdarovie".

[AlexMartin2]

Really think it's that simple?


Of course not, but I believe that EU dont care about Lithuania problems with Russia, especially, when most of them is BS.
Also, I know that Russian goverment prefers not to tell directly about the problem. I dont like such approach, but I dont have any influence on goverment :)


That's exactly your problem. If it doesn't matter, then you'll have no agreement with the EU, period. Stop acting childishlly and arogantlly and then you will have no problems with the EU members.

You know, we like to act childishlly and arogantlly. We are Russians after all :) And we dont like countries celebrating with Nazi collaborators.

Probably EU thinks the same as you, but they NEED oil and gas. And they will do anything to persuade Lithuania to stop doing BS.
Lets wait and see...

[kosse]

I think Finland should take a harder stance too and but our politicians are cowards, as always. Nevertheless, something must be done for example to the wood tariffs. I'm inclined to give silent "vodka" diplomacy more time but if it doesn't not work out we'll lose 25 000 well paid jobs unless we act.

We could place fees on the Russian cargo trucks that cross the border by thousands each day transporting goods to Europe. Nowadays they can use our road network for free. How is it going to be tomorrow? Big part of Russian exports go through Finland and I don't think Russians have capabilities to transport them through their own harbors. Blackmail? Yes, but what are wood tariffs where tariff per cubic meter is bigger than the value of the wood itself..

[Kangars]

Yes, Yes please impose tariffs in Finland, please.... this will shift more russian transit to Latvia (we like it). Please tell estonian brothers to replace more monuments so we can have more estonian transit shifted to Latvia like last year.
Also I hope that lithuanians sabotage trade negotiations with russians. You see... our pipeline from Russia to Ventspils was dry for years, maybe there will be possibility to deal with Rossneft directly without common european agreement (why share?)

[kosse]

Yes, Yes please impose tariffs in Finland, please.... this will shift more russian transit to Latvia (we like it). Please tell estonian brothers to replace more monuments so we can have more estonian transit shifted to Latvia like last year.


You do realise that the Russian cargo strains the road infrastructure a lot and thus costs money? We are building a 24 million truck park as we speak just for the Russian trucks. Meanwhile there are very little financial benefits as the goods are just passing through..the situation is that we are offering them free transport to and from EU with our own expense.

[asch]

Since all my homies are in this thread, yo, my wife gave birth to a son. A strong Russian boy, with a touch of Ossetian and Tatar.

Congrats, man! :) will have a shot of tequila for your son and his mother health and prosperity. (sorry no vodka in the bar today p-))

[asch]

oh, yes, and on topic:
this will make them yuropins to think twice before inviting any country that chopped off USSR. p-)

[Kangars]

You do realise that the Russian cargo strains the road infrastructure a lot and thus costs money? We are building a 24 million truck park as we speak just for the Russian trucks. Meanwhile there are very little financial benefits as the goods are just passing through..the situation is that we are offering them free transport to and from EU with our own expense.

Russian cargo companies pay transit fees to Latvian budget. More transit means also high seaport turnover (we have 3 of them). EU invested in Latvian truck park and road development a.k.a via Baltica and border facilities renovation and expansion (thank you very much).
Since monument riots Riga's port turnover increased above expectations. Friend of mine is one of the port's executives recently managed to buy villa in Nice (thanks to estonians ).
The point is that if you have pragmatic relationship with Russia it can be financially rewording. Did I mention Riga's airport expansion?

[Afro-European]

Russian cargo companies pay transit fees to Latvian budget. More transit means also high seaport turnover (we have 3 of them). EU invested in Latvian truck park and road development a.k.a via Baltica and border facilities renovation and expansion (thank you very much).
Since monument riots Riga's port turnover increased above expectations. Friend of mine is one of the port's executives recently managed to buy villa in Nice (thanks to estonians ).
The point is that if you have pragmatic relationship with Russia it can be financially rewording. Did I mention Riga's airport expansion?
So the bickering between Russia and Estonia has economically helped(still help) you guys,right?

[Flamming_Python]

Sorry lightfire, you lost, just like the Finns. You'll just have to learn to tolerate it...

BTW, we take no responsibility for Stalin, Beria & all other over-zeleous murderous communists. All of these are trademarks copyrighted by the USSR. If you don't agree with this statement and judge that the modern Russian state has something to 'apologise' for - idi k chortu ;)

[Flamming_Python]

You do realise that the Russian cargo strains the road infrastructure a lot and thus costs money? We are building a 24 million truck park as we speak just for the Russian trucks. Meanwhile there are very little financial benefits as the goods are just passing through..the situation is that we are offering them free transport to and from EU with our own expense.

Well let's put it this way... Estonia's economical growth has fallen to around 3% now for this year, where it had about 10-11% growth last year. Part of the reason is due to the credit slump, the other part of the reason is that a huge part of its transport industry was diverted and businesses could no longer do deal with Russian ones so easily. True though, the Russian ban mainly effected Russian businesses in Estonia.

C'est la vie, I guess...

[Kangars]

So the bickering between Russia and Estonia has economically helped(still help) you guys,right?
Yes, a little bit. Now it is Lithuanian turn to help us.:)

[lightfire]

Sorry lightfire, you lost, just like the Finns. You'll just have to learn to tolerate it...

BTW, we take no responsibility for Stalin, Beria & all other over-zeleous murderous communists. All of these are trademarks copyrighted by the USSR. If you don't agree with this statement and judge that the modern Russian state has something to 'apologise' for - idi k chortu ;)

This time, the tollerance will have to come from your side, we've had enough of it, besides those issues, as I've said, aren't against russian interests. Isn't that what's most important to you guys? Russian interests. So there you go, none of those requests damage russian interests - fix the pipeline, take a path of compromise with georgia and Moldova, at least in public, saving the face anyway, help with those two cases once and for all - lithuanian buisnesman was making investment into kaliningrad, into russian economy, and your security services haven't moved a finger to help about that, and lastly - you've singed treaty of extradiction, why don't you give up murderes of Januarry 13th? All the documentation is ready, nothing to harm the relations - and we could live without any problems.

As for appology, Russia is a sole successor of the SU rights. You don't celebrate 9th of May as a day of russian victory, but as soviet victory, why so hard to recognize? The key here is not even the appology or compensation - it would be wiped out of any talks, if you admit the fact. The the thing is that Russia denies the fact - from media to highest officials (my example of Putin, beer, his studies and occupation). However I must tell you another thing. The fact of occupation is better discussed not by officials, but by the historians. A documented united study by lithuanian and russian historians "„SSSR i Litva v gody vtoroj mirovoj vojny“ has been made and they both recognized the fact of occupation. Various historians including prof. Alfred Erik Senn and dr. Karsten Brügemann (Forschungen zur baltischen Geschichte 3, 2008, S. 296- 301 has written possitive reviws of this study. As far asI've heard russian historians, that have worked on this study have fell under disfavour of Kremlin (they are not actually sent to Siberia as enemies of the motherland...yet..p-)). Therefore you have historical study, based on documents, without any space for drunk interpretations - a porffesional assesment. All the russian government has to do, is to admit it, thus denying any allegations of the recent years, that there was no such thing. (there was Holocaust, there were gas chambers, there was 9/11, there was an occupation as well, period.). I'm pretty sure a comprimise could then be achieved, revoking the law of compensation. However, this stuff of occupation IS NOT the issue at the table of negotiations regarding the EU at the moment. That has to be made clear, cause I've already read wild interpretations of russian media why Lithuania has blocked the treaty - assumptions, allegations, propoganda, but nothing quite real, except "Druzhba". I've mentioned four exact reasons, those are the issues that Russia can should talk about, if they want that treaty.

[Igor01]

...fix the pipeline, take a path of compromise with georgia and Moldova, at least in public, saving the face anyway, help with those two cases once and for all ...

In the spirit of your country's newly found geopolitical influence, why don't you guys demand that the US drops unfair hardwood tariffs for Canadian exporters or that lesbians cease and desist using the derivative of the name of a certain Greek island that they usurped?

[lightfire]

In the spirit of your country's newly found geopolitical influence, why don't you guys demand that the US drops unfair hardwood tariffs for Canadian exporters or that lesbians cease and desist using the derivative of the name of a certain Greek island that they usurped?


why would we? You have the pipeline, that has been "damaged" after the polish took the "Mazeikiu nafta" over, and russians "couldn't fix this pipeline suddenly..for over a year", despite all pleas... Perhaps on July we should close the railway to Kaliningrad "for capital repairs", huh?

[ting]

What is this pipeline issue you guys are talking about? Is this related to the planned but doomed baltic pipeline?

[lightfire]

What is this pipeline issue you guys are talking about? Is this related to the planned but doomed baltic pipeline?

No, it's the pipeline called "Druzhba", that has been functional until the Polish company has bought lithuanian Oil refinery "Mazeikiu nafta". Then it "broke down".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druzhba_pipeline

[ting]

No, it's the pipeline called "Druzhba", that has been functional until the Polish company has bought lithuanian Oil refinery "Mazeikiu nafta". Then it "broke down".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druzhba_pipeline

Thanks, still not shure I get it though:oops: Why should the russians fix the pipeline, since a polish company bought it? Is this something related to the fire in 2006 or what?

[lightfire]

Thanks, still not shure I get it though:oops: Why should the russians fix the pipeline, since a polish company bought it? Is this something related to the fire in 2006 or what?

the problem is, that we won't get enough oil. As for Druzhba, it was firstly told, they are gonna fix it, then they said, they are fixing it, then they said it is impossible to fix it and the pipeline is closed. That's not how you deal with your neighbours and not just economical question. As I've said, it is very easy to start general repairs of the railway, going through Lithuania to Kaliningrad, but that is neither in our nor in russian interests.

[ting]

the problem is, that we won't get enough oil. As for Druzhba, it was firstly told, they are gonna fix it, then they said, they are fixing it, then they said it is impossible to fix it and the pipeline is closed. That's not how you deal with your neighbours and not just economical question. As I've said, it is very easy to start general repairs of the railway, going through Lithuania to Kaliningrad, but that is neither in our nor in russian interests.


Hmm sounds like a real headache. The russians are tough to deal with. We have had a long standing issue with a Nickel plant close to our border which is spewing out poison. We even try to subsidize rebuilding of the plant, however nothing gets done, despite our attempts to pursuade them with monetary incentives. It`s worse for the local russian population though, since they bread the stuff.:roll:

[IronFinn]

Well let's put it this way... Estonia's economical growth has fallen to around 3% now for this year, where it had about 10-11% growth last year. Part of the reason is due to the credit slump, the other part of the reason is that a huge part of its transport industry was diverted and businesses could no longer do deal with Russian ones so easily. True though, the Russian ban mainly effected Russian businesses in Estonia.

C'est la vie, I guess...

As a side note, Kosse has a valid point, besides the strain on the road network this traffic brings it also is a danger for the average driver because many of the russian trucks have are in bad condition (bad tires) and some of the drivers have a habbit of being drunk while driving. All this is just costs for Finland I think it is just fair that we take our share from the cake by imposing road payments for this transit function.

[Igor01]

As a side note, Kosse has a valid point, besides the strain on the road network this traffic brings it also is a danger for the average driver because many of the russian trucks have are in bad condition (bad tires) and some of the drivers have a habbit of being drunk while driving. All this is just costs for Finland I think it is just fair that we take our share from the cake by imposing road payments for this transit function.

It makes sense to charge a transit fee, unless of course Finland is getting some benefit for letting the Russian transit through for free. They probably are since I can't imagine how can Russia possibly coerce Finns to give something for nothing.

[Flamming_Python]

This time, the tollerance will have to come from your side, we've had enough of it, besides those issues, as I've said, aren't against russian interests. Isn't that what's most important to you guys? Russian interests. So there you go, none of those requests damage russian interests - fix the pipeline, take a path of compromise with georgia and Moldova, at least in public, saving the face anyway, help with those two cases once and for all - lithuanian buisnesman was making investment into kaliningrad, into russian economy, and your security services haven't moved a finger to help about that, and lastly - you've singed treaty of extradiction, why don't you give up murderes of Januarry 13th? All the documentation is ready, nothing to harm the relations - and we could live without any problems.

As for appology, Russia is a sole successor of the SU rights. You don't celebrate 9th of May as a day of russian victory, but as soviet victory, why so hard to recognize? The key here is not even the appology or compensation - it would be wiped out of any talks, if you admit the fact. The the thing is that Russia denies the fact - from media to highest officials (my example of Putin, beer, his studies and occupation). However I must tell you another thing. The fact of occupation is better discussed not by officials, but by the historians. A documented united study by lithuanian and russian historians "„SSSR i Litva v gody vtoroj mirovoj vojny“ has been made and they both recognized the fact of occupation. Various historians including prof. Alfred Erik Senn and dr. Karsten Brügemann (Forschungen zur baltischen Geschichte 3, 2008, S. 296- 301 has written possitive reviws of this study. As far asI've heard russian historians, that have worked on this study have fell under disfavour of Kremlin (they are not actually sent to Siberia as enemies of the motherland...yet..p-)). Therefore you have historical study, based on documents, without any space for drunk interpretations - a porffesional assesment. All the russian government has to do, is to admit it, thus denying any allegations of the recent years, that there was no such thing. (there was Holocaust, there were gas chambers, there was 9/11, there was an occupation as well, period.). I'm pretty sure a comprimise could then be achieved, revoking the law of compensation. However, this stuff of occupation IS NOT the issue at the table of negotiations regarding the EU at the moment. That has to be made clear, cause I've already read wild interpretations of russian media why Lithuania has blocked the treaty - assumptions, allegations, propoganda, but nothing quite real, except "Druzhba". I've mentioned four exact reasons, those are the issues that Russia can should talk about, if they want that treaty.

You know, Russia declared itself as the sole successor state of the USSR, something which theoretically it did not have to do, under the international law of 1991 (i.e. time of USSR's collapse), all 15 states which emerged from the USSR were equal successor states.

However, in practise, it was neccessery for Russia to do this in order to inherit the USSR's seat at the UN permenant security council, and nuclear weapons. As a consenquence, it also inherited the USSR's foreign debt. Therefore, if there is compensation to be made, it should come from Russia I think.

However, I don't think I need to argue with you that Stalin's USSR was a markedly different beast than that of Krushchev's or Brezhnev's times. The mass-murdering, etc... it happened under Stalin. Secoundly, although Russia should pay the compensation, the modern Russian state is no more responsible for Stalin's crimes than the Russian empire of yester-year. There is no apology to be made, and as for the occupation, although it may have been such (although techniqually it wasn't such from the perspective of international law), was conducted by a state that no longer exists. The Russian people have suffered even more (from the late 20's to 1953) than the Baltics (from 1941-1953) under Stalin's rule, and so if there is compensation to be made, it should be given to both people's equally, no more and no less.

I repeat, neither the Russian people nor the Russian state is responsible for the crimes of Stalin. The Baltic countries should acknowledge this I think, before any re-concilliation and questions of re-payment can be discussed.

As for 'Druzhba' pipeline, it doesn't seem to be living up to it's name lately unfortunately. Perhaps that's why Russia shut it down? :)
Seriously though, it's hardly like Russia has got good relations or extensive economic links with these countries that would justify it giving a secound thought to the subject. Of course, you are right it is bullying, but that's just the way it works between big & small. USA has similar policies in relation to many of its Latin American, Carribean and South American neighbours. It's not right, it's just reality.

[lightfire]

You know, Russia declared itself as the sole successor state of the USSR, something which theoretically it did not have to do, under the international law of 1991 (i.e. time of USSR's collapse), all 15 states which emerged from the USSR were equal successor states.

However, in practise, it was neccessery for Russia to do this in order to inherit the USSR's seat at the UN permenant security council, and nuclear weapons. As a consenquence, it also inherited the USSR's foreign debt. Therefore, if there is compensation to be made, it should come from Russia I think.

However, I don't think I need to argue with you that Stalin's USSR was a markedly different beast than that of Krushchev's or Brezhnev's times. The mass-murdering, etc... it happened under Stalin. Secoundly, although Russia should pay the compensation, the modern Russian state is no more responsible for Stalin's crimes than the Russian empire of yester-year. There is no apology to be made, and as for the occupation, although it may have been such (although techniqually it wasn't such from the perspective of international law), was conducted by a state that no longer exists. The Russian people have suffered even more (from the late 20's to 1953) than the Baltics (from 1941-1953) under Stalin's rule, and so if there is compensation to be made, it should be given to both people's equally, no more and no less.

I repeat, neither the Russian people nor the Russian state is responsible for the crimes of Stalin. The Baltic countries should acknowledge this I think, before any re-concilliation and questions of re-payment can be discussed.

As for 'Druzhba' pipeline, it doesn't seem to be living up to it's name lately unfortunately. Perhaps that's why Russia shut it down? :)
Seriously though, it's hardly like Russia has got good relations or extensive economic links with these countries that would justify it giving a secound thought to the subject. Of course, you are right it is bullying, but that's just the way it works between big & small. USA has similar policies in relation to many of its Latin American, Carribean and South American neighbours. It's not right, it's just reality.

Hmmm...I don't get it. You recognize, that Russia is sole succesor, then agree that "Therefore, if there is compensation to be made, it should come from Russia I think." and then you dissagree with yourself on quite weak reality and international law grounds. The first thing about the "responsobilities" of those other 14 rebublics, is that (well, I dunno , about all of them, but as for Baltic states for instance, that have been occupied in the summer of 1940) this is not valid. They have been occupied, annexed by force by a foreign power and cannot share the responsibilities for the SU actions. Now if the state is a succesor of the SU, nomatter what reasons, it shares both debts, nukes and responsibilty. Yes, I realise what Stalin have done to russians, besides other nations, just like Hitler have done to germans and other nations, but that does not mean Germany of today, wich has little resemblence to the Third Reich (Macs would dissagree p-)), does not share the responsibility.

Here's some quick explanation from the legal ground (the pearson who wrote this is a lawyer, though his russian languge skills aren't perfect as he admits himself):

http://senoji.skaityta.lt/russianlies.html?

See, what infuriates us, is not that Russian government or russians claiming no responsibility, but the fact they deny the fact of the action itself, buth moraly and legaly. It is the lack of knowledge, historical knowledge, when during soviet times one could not speak of such matters, and the offical version of the SU is still valid in russian historiagraphy, offical statements and media announcements. See, we are not the evil joos, who after appology for the holocoust demand to return their lands, property, dig some 17 century cemetry in the center of Vilnius and demand to demolish all new buildings. No matter what reality is with the ballance of power, the principle justice of history should be made, and that would be a period, after wich better relations could evolve.

And yet, let me remind you that concering the treaty with the EU, this issue was not raised, despite russian media allegations. 4 issueas I've mentioned, they remain the same. If reality is such, then the reality of russian - EU treaty position for now is adequate as well. The "Druzhba" story is a threat to our energetic security, and that is a national interest, and while some other EU countries might wana make steps down towards Russia in fear of lack of resources, we already have this situation, and there's simply no way to step down. As for those other 3 issues, as I've said, for the russian side, if it wills, they are easily met and solved.And in fact from lithuanian side, comprimises over 2 nd and 3 rd are already to be offered.

[Igor01]

Yes, I realise what Stalin have done to russians, besides other nations, just like Hitler have done to germans and other nations, but that does not mean Germany of today, wich has little resemblence to the Third Reich (Macs would dissagree p-)), does not share the responsibility.

Last time I checked Hitler's National Socialism was aimed to establish Germans as the master race, rob and subjugate "subhuman" nations and clear the Lebensraum for the Ubermensch by forced germanization and outright extermination. Kindly explain how the Russian people benefited from the Soviet policies at the expense of other nations and should therefore share a responsibility similar to that of post-WWII Germany.


The "Druzhba" story is a threat to our energetic security... ...As for those other 3 issues, as I've said, for the russian side, if it wills, they are easily met and solved.

Why not alleviate this "threat to your energy security" by building your own pipeline and buying hydrocarbons from your beloved EU, or even your best buddies Georgia and Moldova that you are so concerned about? Surely, they won't leave such a good friend high and dry. Heck, add a few more demands for the Russians in the meantime, tell them to return Sakhalin to Japan and drop the objections to the US missle shield.

[lightfire]

Last time I checked Hitler's National Socialism was aimed to establish Germans as the master race, rob and subjugate "subhuman" nations and clear the Lebensraum for the Ubermensch by forced germanization and outright extermination. Kindly explain how the Russian people benefited from the Soviet policies at the expense of other nations and should therefore share a responsibility similar to that of post-WWII Germany.
.

I was speaking of the evil deeds of Stalin and Hitler for their countries. I hope you do not deny this fact. Nazi Germany is no more, SU is no more, Germany still shares responsibility for, lets say, occupation of Austria, why shouldn't Russia?


Why not alleviate this "threat to your energy security" by building your own pipeline and buying hydrocarbons from your beloved EU, or even your best buddies Georgia and Moldova that you are so concerned about? Surely, they won't leave such a good friend high and dry. Heck, add a few more demands for the Russians in the meantime, tell them to return Sakhalin to Japan and drop the objections to the US missle shield

I hope you realise, that it's not so easy, essp for smaller countries, to build pipelines in few months, while the suddenlly "damaged" Druzhba is closed forever.

[Igor01]

I was speaking of the evil deeds of Stalin and Hitler for their countries. I hope you do not deny this fact. Nazi Germany is no more, SU is no more, Germany still shares responsibility for, lets say, occupation of Austria, why shouldn't Russia?

Germans as a nation derived a benefit from Hitler's policies at the expense of other nations, Russians on the other hand did not benefit from Stalin's policies at the expense of others, on the contrary - they suffered the most. If you're unable to see the fundamental difference between the two, just say so and I won't waste any more breath.


I hope you realise, that it's not so easy, essp for smaller countries, to build pipelines in few months, while the suddenlly "damaged" Druzhba is closed forever.

It would seem that Lithuania is big enough when it comes to putting forth demands on issues that don't concern her but too small to show similar zeal in dealing with her economic challanges. Funny, that.

[lightfire]

Germans as a nation derived a benefit from Hitler's policies at the expense of other nations,
.


mmm..yes indeed, esspecially german jews, gipsies, others having different thoughts on nazi regime. A lot of benefit.


Russians on the other hand did not benefit from Stalin's policies at the expense of others, on the contrary - they suffered the most.

ORLY? Not that I'm claiming that russians did not suffer, but IMHO it's inappropriate to measure who suffered the most, all of the victims, all of the dead are equal in their suffereings. The difference with my country is, that this suffering came from a foreign power. As for benefits - the russian colonists who were offered to settle in the Baltic states after the war had more privileges than anyone else. Besides, have forgot the free labour force, that has been transfered to Siberia and other places of the SU? Who was building first stadiums and many of the buildings after the war? Who was working to their deaths in Yakutia, in the mines and forsets?



It would seem that Lithuania is big enough when it comes to putting forth demands on issues that don't concern her but too small to show similar zeal in dealing with her economic challanges. Funny, that

Putting fair issues, that Russia cannot resolve in a two side negotiations and refuses to do so has nothing to do with the size. As I've mentioned - the railway to Kaliningrad might be closed for repairs as well - try to organize transportation by ship and air so fast in few months. That wouldn't be easy in short term, huh?

[Indiana Jones]

Germans as a nation derived a benefit from Hitler's policies at the expense of other nations, Russians on the other hand did not benefit from Stalin's policies at the expense of others, on the contrary - they suffered the most. If you're unable to see the fundamental difference between the two, just say so and I won't waste any more breath.

Igor, no offence, but I do not think anybody with a modicum of intellectual sobriety could possibly maintain that the Germans (or anybody else for that matter) ultimatively benefited from Hitlers policies. However, this is besides the point. What is relevant to the subject at hand is that the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Soviet Union.

[Igor01]

mmm..yes indeed, esspecially german jews, gipsies, others having different thoughts on nazi regime. A lot of benefit.

What do Jews, Gypsies and commies/homo******s/infirm have to do with the German nation's collective responsibility for Nazism? Germany was an almost mononational country and those you mentioned were persecuted almost exclusively by ethnic Germans who benefitted from the robbing, conquest, forced labour and expanding the German "living space" just by virtue of being German. Ethnic Germans were the perpetrators while others (for the most part) were victims.

In the case of the Soviets, there was neither oppression nor benefaction on the basis of nationality (apart from a few isolated campaigns in late 30's, and even then, the highest proportion of new GULAG victims were Russian). In the early years of the Russian Revolution and the Civil War, the majority of the Red Guard units and later VChK/GPU were predominanly non-Russian. Before Ezhov's purges, NKVD had a disproportionately non-Russian (and even non-Slavic) element.

The perceived loyalty to the regime and its ideology were the basis benefaction and persecution. Clearly, unlike ethnicity, that is something that a person can control, at least in the appearance, which most Soviets had to do.


ORLY? Not that I'm claiming that russians did not suffer, but IMHO it's inappropriate to measure who suffered the most, all of the victims, all of the dead are equal in their suffereings.

I am not suggesting that we measure the suffering, I am simply pointing out the fact that there's a verifiable fundamental difference between the German people and the Russian people in regards to their collective responsibilities. Simply put - unlike Germans, Russians did not benefit from USSR's actions and unlike Germans, Russians by far were the main victims of Soviet oppression.


The difference with my country is, that this suffering came from a foreign power. As for benefits - the russian colonists who were offered to settle in the Baltic states after the war had more privileges than anyone else. Besides, have forgot the free labour force, that has been transfered to Siberia and other places of the SU? Who was building first stadiums and many of the buildings after the war? Who was working to their deaths in Yakutia, in the mines and forsets?

Perhaps if your small (but proud) country chose to offer some resistance similar to the Finns as opposed to simply rolling over and letting the internal pro-Soviet element quickly take over and ask for incorporation into the USSR, your history might have been very different.

And please spare me the lecture on the forced labour, the majority of the GULAG labourers were Russian. There were also a lot of Germans after the war but it was only fair that they would pay for at least some of the damage they've caused.


Putting fair issues, that Russia cannot resolve in a two side negotiations and refuses to do so has nothing to do with the size. As I've mentioned - the railway to Kaliningrad might be closed for repairs as well - try to organize transportation by ship and air so fast in few months. That wouldn't be easy in short term, huh?

This may come as a shock but countries much like people do not what others think they should but what they can get away with. Study the US foreign policy for example if you don't believe me. Acting according to own size and influence is prudent.

[lightfire]

What do Jews, Gypsies and commies/homo******s/infirm have to do with the German nation's collective responsibility for Nazism?

the were german citizens, uppressed, tortured and killed by the germans, just like russians, SU citizens, tortured, killed by the soviet regime. same responsibility.


Germany was an almost mononational country and those you mentioned were persecuted almost exclusively by ethnic Germans who benefitted from the robbing, conquest, forced labour and expanding the German "living space" just by virtue of being German. Ethnic Germans were the perpetrators while others (for the most part) were victims.

Incorrect, Germany had lots of jews before Hitler came to power. And they were killed not only by the germans, but by various criminals, yes, including from the Baltic states and occupied parts of the SU as well.




In the case of the Soviets, there was neither oppression nor benefaction on the basis of nationality

At this point the grounds of nationality or ethnicity does not matter, the fact there was an oppression is undenyable. Opression of the foreign nationals, in this case people from Baltic countries. As I've said, I do not deny the russian, ukrainian or suffering of the people from other nations. I say, it is not valid to compare the sufferings, but since Russia is a successor of SU rights, it shares the responsobility. In Russia I believe (if this hasn't been revoked by the Putin, who in a way contradicted himself by calling Stalin a monster and yet whitening some of the crimes, being sad of the dissolving of the SU in general), stalinist crimes and comunist crimes are condemned. However the occupation of the foreign countries did not end with Stalins death, it lasted until 1991. While some remember soviet times with nostalgy, they tend to mix things and unable to separate responsibility, truth and values, ecconomic status tehn and now. Nobody is saying that random russian should fall on their knees with tears in his eyes and beg for pardon, for what the soviets did to other countries, and (it would be absurd) beg for pardon HIMSELF, for what soviets did for russians. The point here is admiting the past, putting aside all geopolitical and pragmatic reasons, the moral side is relevant here - admit that SU did the wrongdoing not only to russians, but to other nations as well. As I've said, denying the fact of occupation is exactly what pisses off.



Perhaps if your small (but proud) country chose to offer some resistance similar to the Finns as opposed to simply rolling over and letting the internal pro-Soviet element quickly take over and ask for incorporation into the USSR, your history might have been very different.

Yes, perhaps. But this is another and longer discussion. I've participated in numbers of them, and to be short, the conclussion was, that the resistence would not have guaranted any benefits except thousands of dead, ruined cities (there was no Mannerheim line, no terrain barriers like in Finland, even no finish winter. Only 3 soviet armies facing 3 Baltic countries with limited abbilities to resist - on paper 300 000 - 400 000 men). And who could guarantee that same repressions, that have actually happened would not be the same after the resistance? In lithuanian case there was yet another 'joker" card - Vilnius, that Stalin has threatened to give uo to the belarussians. However, as the period after the war has shown, it was not without the resistance, and resistance movements in the Baltic states have been active from 1944 til mid fifties. That was, off cource, too late.


And please spare me the lecture on the forced labour, the majority of the GULAG labourers were Russian. There were also a lot of Germans after the war but it was only fair that they would pay for at least some of the damage they've caused.

that does not eliminate the fact that part of the forced labour were from the Baltic states, with their smaller number of citizens. One cannot compare the sheer number of russians and lithuanians in the orld, neither in 1940, nor today. Lithuania has lost 13% of it's population during the WWII, part of it have been deported/killed by the soviets. Again, despite saying "I am not suggesting that we measure the suffering" you are putting numbers again and compare them, who suffered the most. Forced labour, from various countries was a bennefit to the SU.


This may come as a shock but countries much like people do not what others think they should but what they can get away with. Study the US foreign policy for example if you don't believe me. Acting according to own size and influence is prudent.

yes, but thinking you can get away from it is a blunder. In this case, the relations with the EU suffers.

[Igor01]

Igor, no offence, but I do not think anybody with a modicum of intellectual sobriety could possibly maintain that the Germans (or anybody else for that matter) ultimatively benefited from Hitlers policies. However, this is besides the point. What is relevant to the subject at hand is that the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Soviet Union.

None taken, there's absolutely no doubt that Germans ultimately paid an immense price for National Socialism. However, the fact remains, that before WWII turned unfavourable for Germany the ethnic Germans were the benefecieries of the Nazi policy of racial supremacy and military conquest and caused unprecedented human suffering and material destruction. It cannot be likened to the Soviet ideological oppression of the Eastern Europe after WWII as Soviet regime never treated the "brotherly nations" as inferior subhumans that are to be forsefully russified, exterminated or relocated in order to free living space for the Soviet overlords. If anything, the living standards in the "popular democracies" were significantly higher than in the USSR, and the living standards of the various Soviet republics like the Baltics and Georgia for example were much higher than than those in Russia.

I've heard the "legal successor" pitch before and fail to see how this concept requires Russia to apologize for whatever Soviet leadership perpetrated. The Soviet Supreme Council (Verkhovny Sovet) has denounced the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the secret protocol in 1989 and stated that these were against the interests of the Soviet people. USSR was dissolved and Russia has taken over the seat on the Security Council, the nukes and the Soviet foreign debts and assets. Legitimizing the above was exactly the purpose of establishing the "legal succession" concept. It has nothing to do with assuming some fault which would be akin to signing a blank cheque for a meal that one did not even have.

If they want an apology, let them start with themselves. The argument that they were occupied and forced into the Union doesn't hold much water as Soviet troops were placed in the Baltics as a result of treaties ratified by their governments, there was no state of war and Soviet troops were not opposed or resisted against at all. Oh, so they were coerced? Perhaps, but there is always a choice. The Baltic governments preferred the comfort of peaceful subjugation as opposed to losses and suffering of struggling. Finns, on the other hand, didn't roll over and kept their freedom.

Why not demand an apology from all the other 14 former republics, including their own? Any Russian Federation citizen born before 1991 had as much control over his or her life as any Lithuanian born in the same time frame. The whole idea that RF should apologize to the Baltics and assume some imaginary responsibility for Soviet wrongdoings is absurd.

[TR1]

None taken, there's absolutely no doubt that Germans ultimately paid an immense price for National Socialism. However, the fact remains, that before WWII turned unfavourable for Germany the ethnic Germans were the benefecieries of the Nazi policy of racial supremacy and military conquest and caused unprecedented human suffering and material destruction. It cannot be likened to the Soviet ideological oppression of the Eastern Europe after WWII as Soviet regime never treated the "brotherly nations" as inferior subhumans that are to be forsefully russified, exterminated or relocated in order to free living space for the Soviet overlords. If anything, the living standards in the "popular democracies" were significantly higher than in the USSR, and the living standards of the various Soviet republics like the Baltics and Georgia for example were much higher than than those in Russia.

I've heard the "legal successor" pitch before and fail to see how this concept requires Russia to apologize for whatever Soviet leadership perpetrated. The Soviet Supreme Council (Verkhovny Sovet) has denounced the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the secret protocol in 1989 and stated that these were against the interests of the Soviet people. USSR was dissolved and Russia has taken over the seat on the Security Council, the nukes and the Soviet foreign debts and assets. Legitimizing the above was exactly the purpose of establishing the "legal succession" concept. It has nothing to do with assuming some fault which would be akin to signing a blank cheque for a meal that one did not even have.

If they want an apology, let them start with themselves. The argument that they were occupied and forced into the Union doesn't hold much water as Soviet troops were placed in the Baltics as a result of treaties ratified by their governments, there was no state of war and Soviet troops were not opposed or resisted against at all. Oh, so they were coerced? Perhaps, but there is always a choice. The Baltic governments preferred the comfort of peaceful subjugation as opposed to losses and suffering of struggling. Finns, on the other hand, didn't roll over and kept their freedom.

Why not demand an apology from all the other 14 former republics, including their own? Any Russian Federation citizen born before 1991 had as much control over his or her life as any Lithuanian born in the same time frame. The whole idea that RF should apologize to the Baltics and assume some imaginary responsibility for Soviet wrongdoings is absurd.
totally agree.

[Kilgor]

The Baltic governments preferred the comfort of peaceful subjugation as opposed to losses and suffering of struggling. Finns, on the other hand, didn't roll over and kept their freedom.

.

Peaceful subjugation ? You must be joking.... Jeez you Soviet fanboys have no idea of reality do you.

[Indiana Jones]

None taken, there's absolutely no doubt that Germans ultimately paid an immense price for National Socialism. However, the fact remains, that before WWII turned unfavourable for Germany the ethnic Germans were the benefecieries of the Nazi policy of racial supremacy and military conquest and caused unprecedented human suffering and material destruction. It cannot be likened to the Soviet ideological oppression of the Eastern Europe after WWII as Soviet regime never treated the "brotherly nations" as inferior subhumans that are to be forsefully russified, exterminated or relocated in order to free living space for the Soviet overlords. If anything, the living standards in the "popular democracies" were significantly higher than in the USSR, and the living standards of the various Soviet republics like the Baltics and Georgia for example were much higher than than those in Russia.

On the subject of what has been called a "Raubkrieg" in German historiography you might find this (albeit controversial) title interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Beneficiaries-Plunder-Racial-Welfare/dp/0805087265/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209685261&sr=8-1

..........
I think the pre-WW2 and wartime Soviet Union would make for an obviously more valid comparison as far as criteria such as the treatment of national minorities etc are concerned. Although I agree with you with that there can be qualitatively no equivalency whatsoever between both regimes in this regard, it would be plain misleading to state that there was no discrimination in the Soviet Union based on nationality; as you are certainly aware, various forced resettlements of entire ethnies regardless of material standing and/or political affiliation took place before, during and after the war, resulting in the deaths of many of those affected. These measures were augmented after the war with at least one instance of outright ethnic cleansing followed by what amounts to little more than old-fashioned colonisation (Kaliningrad oblast) and somewhat more subtle efforts of what one may very well call cultural marginalisation in the Baltic countries.
I´d like to add that the living standards in at least some of the satellites were indeed better than in Russia proper, however at least early on this was often despite the best efforts of the Soviet leadership to the contrary, who stifled potential competition in key industries, collected reparatations, etc.

If they want an apology, let them start with themselves. The argument that they were occupied and forced into the Union doesn't hold much water as Soviet troops were placed in the Baltics as a result of treaties ratified by their governments, there was no state of war and Soviet troops were not opposed or resisted against at all. Oh, so they were coerced? Perhaps, but there is always a choice. The Baltic governments preferred the comfort of peaceful subjugation as opposed to losses and suffering of struggling. Finns, on the other hand, didn't roll over and kept their freedom.

On this subject I must disagree. To begin with one may ask whether the Baltic goverments and the respective collective will of their peoples can be considered to be interchangeable. There was no realistic "choice" whatsoever. The Finns did not really have a chance either. At the time, nobody, including the higher echelons of their leadership, could reasonably expect their resistance against the overwhelming onslaught of the steamroller that was the RKKA to be more than merely symbolic. If one takes a look at the respective military capacities of the belligerents this becomes immediately apparent. There is no point in fighting if one cannot remotely win. Organized military resistance against the Soviet Union would have constituted nothing more than a beau geste, but one that would have claimed countless lives. To deny that the Damocles sword of Soviet invasion was not the major contributive influence to the eventual compliance of the Baltic governments seems disingenuous to me. The large-scale insurgency after the war on the other hand amply documents that -at the very least- a significant proportion of the populace was not content with their lot at all.

Why not demand an apology from all the other 14 former republics, including their own? Any Russian Federation citizen born before 1991 had as much control over his or her life as any Lithuanian born in the same time frame. The whole idea that RF should apologize to the Baltics and assume some imaginary responsibility for Soviet wrongdoings is absurd.
In my opinion, it has little to do with apologies, and I for one would be the last to demand an apology by the current Russian government, let alone individual Russians. The debate as a whole appears to be indicative of what is perceived as a continuation of "Soviet" antics in economical and sociocultural matters by the Russian federation, a very real fear of Russian hegemony with its ****ounced disregard for the affairs and identity of the Baltic peoples. There is a reason why the former Soviet satellites at the earliest possible opportunity sought refuge within the formerly "Western" systems of collective security.

Then again-what would you make of the FRG and the "greater German empire" ? The GDR, as you might know-that is- really, the Soviet Union, categorically denied it bore any responsibility when it was approached by Jewish and other organisations seeking compensations. ;)

[lightfire]

None taken, there's absolutely no doubt that Germans ultimately paid an immense price for National Socialism. However, the fact remains, that before WWII turned unfavourable for Germany the ethnic Germans were the benefecieries of the Nazi policy of racial supremacy and military conquest and caused unprecedented human suffering and material destruction. It cannot be likened to the Soviet ideological oppression of the Eastern Europe after WWII as Soviet regime never treated the "brotherly nations" as inferior subhumans that are to be forsefully russified, exterminated or relocated in order to free living space for the Soviet overlords. If anything, the living standards in the "popular democracies" were significantly higher than in the USSR, and the living standards of the various Soviet republics like the Baltics and Georgia for example were much higher than than those in Russia.


As I've said, that is not an excuse neither for the fact of the occupation, nor for the atrocities against citizens of the foreign soil. Murder, forced labour, forced exile should be concidered same evil as nazi crimes. Suffering is not a criteria one could measure in numbers or percents, this is why i'm against any laws of compensation.


I've heard the "legal successor" pitch before and fail to see how this concept requires Russia to apologize for whatever Soviet leadership perpetrated. The Soviet Supreme Council (Verkhovny Sovet) has denounced the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the secret protocol in 1989 and stated that these were against the interests of the Soviet people. USSR was dissolved and Russia has taken over the seat on the Security Council, the nukes and the Soviet foreign debts and assets. Legitimizing the above was exactly the purpose of establishing the "legal succession" concept. It has nothing to do with assuming some fault which would be akin to signing a blank cheque for a meal that one did not even have.

So the convenient side of the "sucessor" is ok, and moral side is not? If you take the seat at the security council (not other 14 republics, not SNG), nukes and debts, but deny any fact of occupation, this is what? Cowardice or a simple wish to keep the embassies of occupied countries, that SU has overtaken, and until today, not soviet, but RUSSIAN consulates are working, and russian side refuse to talk about it. Is it because of those few buildings?


If they want an apology, let them start with themselves. The argument that they were occupied and forced into the Union doesn't hold much water as Soviet troops were placed in the Baltics as a result of treaties ratified by their governments

And? Soviet army units have crossed the borders first of all, without the consent of the governments. You might wave the flag of "ultimatums". Do you know the text of ultimatums? Do you know what it says?


there was no state of war and Soviet troops were not opposed or resisted against at all.

So do you deny the fact of the occupation?
Did Austria resisted the german occupation? Czechoslovakia?? Denmark?



Perhaps, but there is always a choice. The Baltic governments preferred the comfort of peaceful subjugation as opposed to losses and suffering of struggling. Finns, on the other hand, didn't roll over and kept their freedom.

It doesn't matter, whether you resist or not, threatening by force, entering that force are the illeagal actions and concidered as occupation.

read that again:

http://senoji.skaityta.lt/russianlies.html?


Why not demand an apology from all the other 14 former republics, including their own?

They are the successors of the SU?



Any Russian Federation citizen born before 1991 had as much control over his or her life as any Lithuanian born in the same time frame.

And that proves exactly what? That any citizen could have voted for independency during SU times? For their personal independency?



The whole idea that RF should apologize to the Baltics and assume some imaginary responsibility for Soviet wrongdoings is absurd

Again, recognize first, this IS the responsobility.

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

The funny thing is,the EU needs that treaty more than russia.

[eskachig]

I think Georgia should apologize for Stalin, it's only fair.

[Mamont]

The issue with Lithuania is clear:

- don't care what Russia thinks
- don't care what Russia's wishes
- want her demands fulfilled at any cost

[CPL Trevoga]

Don't understand "victim culture" of the West. Why should I apologies, for Soviet occupation of Lithuania? I did not approve it. I was very happy for Lithuania when they got their independence.

Current generations of Russians is not responsible for any past wrong doing of the Sowiet leadership, just as current German generation is not responsible for crimes of Nazi regime. Just as current generation of Lithuanians is not responsible for Rzechpospolita's occupation of Western Russia and Ukraine in 15th-17th century.

I think Lithuania's membership in EU, with it's liberal immigration and social policies, will bring more harm to Lithuanian culture than any commies ever did.

[Igor01]

On the subject of what has been called a "Raubkrieg" in German historiography you might find this (albeit controversial) title interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Beneficiaries-Plunder-Racial-Welfare/dp/0805087265/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209685261&sr=8-1

Thanks, Indiana, I find that part of the Third Reich's history very fascinating and would definetely like to research it.


On this subject I must disagree. To begin with one may ask whether the Baltic goverments and the respective collective will of their peoples can be considered to be interchangeable. There was no realistic "choice" whatsoever. The Finns did not really have a chance either. At the time, nobody, including the higher echelons of their leadership, could reasonably expect their resistance against the overwhelming onslaught of the steamroller that was the RKKA to be more than merely symbolic. If one takes a look at the respective military capacities of the belligerents this becomes immediately apparent. There is no point in fighting if one cannot remotely win. Organized military resistance against the Soviet Union would have constituted nothing more than a beau geste, but one that would have claimed countless lives. To deny that the Damocles sword of Soviet invasion was not the major contributive influence to the eventual compliance of the Baltic governments seems disingenuous to me. The large-scale insurgency after the war on the other hand amply documents that -at the very least- a significant proportion of the populace was not content with their lot at all.

I understand this reasoning, however I'd like to point out offering resistance, albeit symbolic would have given at least some validity to the argument that the Baltics were "occupied". As you well know, before the Soviet-orchestrated elections and the request to join the USSR, all three governments had agreed to house significant Soviet bases. The RKKA entered their territory in accordance with respective signed treaties, encountered no resistance and was not hindered in any way while setting up their bases. This makes the use of the very term "occupation" rather questionable. As for the Finns, they set out to fight a hopeless battle, but achieved the results beyond their wildest dreams. One might argue that had there been at least some political will on the part of the Baltic governments, that corner of Europe might have had a very different history. I am far from offering a moral judgment on the choice they made, but as the Russian saying states "what use is throwing punches when the fight is over?" It's important to look at the situation in the historical context, the Baltic states had just three options - ally with the Soviets (loosing their independence in the process), ally with Germany (very unappealing option, especially for Lithuanians who would loose Kaunas) or make a stand and fight the Soviets should they attempt to occupy them. They chose to surrender their free will and allowed the Soviets to establish a military presence and use a variety of technics (and not an insignificant portion of the population who sympathized with USSR) to incorporate them into the Soviet Union.


In my opinion, it has little to do with apologies, and I for one would be the last to demand an apology by the current Russian government, let alone individual Russians. The debate as a whole appears to be indicative of what is perceived as a continuation of "Soviet" antics in economical and sociocultural matters by the Russian federation, a very real fear of Russian hegemony with its ****ounced disregard for the affairs and identity of the Baltic peoples. There is a reason why the former Soviet satellites at the earliest possible opportunity sought refuge within the formerly "Western" systems of collective security.

Their fears are not unjustified, given the difficult history. However, being the EU and NATO members they should feel considerably safer now as a replay of what happened 68 years ago is impossible. They don't have to like the economic pressure that Russia is exerting on them but then it's the name of the game, and not for political gains either - "just business, nothing personal". Everybody and their grandmother are doing it, so how is this different in the case of Russia? As far as I know, Lithuania is the "good" Baltic state with virtually zero bad press in Russian media and often serves as a good example in the ever-controversial issue of treatment of the Russian-speaking minorities in the Baltic countries.


Then again-what would you make of the FRG and the "greater German empire" ? The GDR, as you might know-that is- really, the Soviet Union, categorically denied it bore any responsibility when it was approached by Jewish and other organisations seeking compensations. ;)

Quite true, but on the whole, Soviets never insisted that German people bear the stigma of the responsibility for Nazism forever. Stalin said "Hitlers come and go, but Germany remains". Soviet propaganda never accented this particular topic unless of course they were talking of the "revaunchists" from the West Germany, them being the far-right of the political spectrum.

Lightfire, I am not ignoring your arguments, I have read them but I am convinced that you are not reading my posts. So let me just reiterate the fact that it was the Soviet Union and not RSFSR or Russian Federation that was the "occupier" (if I were to use your term). The Soviet Parliament has denounced the Pact and the Protocol and the issue had been discussed in Soviet and later Russian press ad naseaum. The present-day Russian Federation is not responsible for the Soviet policy of the 1930's and 40's and does not owe anybody an apology any more than say Lithuania needs to apologize for her "occupation" of Democratic Republic of Afghanistan or Poland needs to apologize for crushing the "Prague Spring", successor or no succesor.

[Funnage]

They chose to surrender their free will and allowed the Soviets to establish a military presence and use a variety of technics (and not an insignificant portion of the population who sympathized with USSR) to incorporate them into the Soviet Union.

FYI, not all Lithuanians just surrendered their free will. My grandfather was apart of the Lithuanian Paristans that resisted the Soviet Occupation. I grew up to stories of how my grandfather shot and killed Soviet Soldiers that passed by and he buried them where they laid. Much of my family was murdered by the Soviets in the 1950's before what remained fled to the US. Also "Soviet Incorporation" meant that Lithuanian culture was gradually destroyed and russianized. Lithuanian could not be spoken and was rarely taught, but as my grandmother always said "kas bus, kas nebus, bet lietuvis neprazus"

Soviet's military inclusion was a grave mistake on Lithuania part, but after WW2 and during the war, the west cared less about what happened in the Baltics and largly ignored Soviet atrocities because they thought the Nazis were a greater threat. Personally I think the west should have pushed up from Germany and into the Soviet Union instead of carving up Berlin. Considering that Lithuania faced total destruction or inclusion, what would you have chosen? Germany was viewed as a liberator from Russia (before they realized they were becoming puppets) and other than the Nazis, no one else came to aide Lithuania. What did you expect the country to do?

Edit:
I do not agree with Lithuania being apart of the EU either. Lithuania fought hard to remain an independent nation. Sure NATO is a good idea, but EU? I want a Lithuania that could stand on it's own. Bring back Lietuvos Didzioji Kunigikstyte! But not really. I just want to see Lithuania as it's people are: stubborn and independent.

[lightfire]

^^^

That is not cool. Emotions, not arguments. The legal issues with the matter of occupation have been discussed. And they remain in favour of the Baltic states. If one cannot deal with their emotions as this guy on the other side of the camp, then read the law.

[eskachig]

^^^

That is not cool. Emotions, not arguments. The legal issues with the matter of occupation have been discussed. And they remain in favour of the Baltic states. If one cannot deal with their emotions as this guy on the other side of the camp, then read the law.I really don't understand what the legal issues are. Why does Russia owe anything for the occupation? Do the Mongols owe Russians for 400 years of occupation and misery? Reparations are usually paid because a country was forced to sign an unfavorable treaty after a military or political defeat. Russia signed no such treaty and doesn't owe anyone jack. Certainly, Lithuanian parliament has no authority to force Russians to pay anything at all.

And it's their pipeline to repair, who are you to tell them where to sell their oil? If you can't support your own economy without it then why threaten good relation with ridiculous rhetoric?


Personally I think the west should have pushed up from Germany and into the Soviet Union instead of carving up Berlin.Yeah that would've been a hoot. It's probably a good thing for the West that they didn't try this absurd path.

[TR1]

FYI, not all Lithuanians just surrendered their free will. My grandfather was apart of the Lithuanian Paristans that resisted the Soviet Occupation. I grew up to stories of how my grandfather shot and killed Soviet Soldiers that passed by and he buried them where they laid. Much of my family was murdered by the Soviets in the 1950's before what remained fled to the US. Also "Soviet Incorporation" meant that Lithuanian culture was gradually destroyed and russianized. Lithuanian could not be spoken and was rarely taught, but as my grandmother always said "kas bus, kas nebus, bet lietuvis neprazus"

Soviet's military inclusion was a grave mistake on Lithuania part, but after WW2 and during the war, the west cared less about what happened in the Baltics and largly ignored Soviet atrocities because they thought the Nazis were a greater threat. Personally I think the west should have pushed up from Germany and into the Soviet Union instead of carving up Berlin. Considering that Lithuania faced total destruction or inclusion, what would you have chosen? Germany was viewed as a liberator from Russia (before they realized they were becoming puppets) and other than the Nazis, no one else came to aide Lithuania. What did you expect the country to do?

Edit:
I do not agree with Lithuania being apart of the EU either. Lithuania fought hard to remain an independent nation. Sure NATO is a good idea, but EU? I want a Lithuania that could stand on it's own. Bring back Lietuvos Didzioji Kunigikstyte! But not really. I just want to see Lithuania as it's people are: stubborn and independent.

lol. idiocy.

Churchill himself asked his military planners to predict what would happen in case of war with the SU. Results were not encouraging.


also I bet you grandady killed whole Soviet Divisions didn't he?

[CPL Trevoga]

FYI, not all Lithuanians just surrendered their free will. My grandfather was apart of the Lithuanian Paristans that resisted the Soviet Occupation. I grew up to stories of how my grandfather shot and killed Soviet Soldiers that passed by and he buried them where they laid. Much of my family was murdered by the Soviets in the 1950's before what remained fled to the US. Also "Soviet Incorporation" meant that Lithuanian culture was gradually destroyed and russianized. Lithuanian could not be spoken and was rarely taught, but as my grandmother always said "kas bus, kas nebus, bet lietuvis neprazus"

Jesus, maybe if they didn't commit murder nothing would have happed to them?

As far as I remember, I was in Vilnus (aka Vilno) back in communist days and pretty much everything was in Lithuanian. Lithuanian culture was well. So that "destroying culture" this, is a total bull****. Lithuania SSR and present Lithuanian Republic actually benefited from commies. Vilno from Poland, Kaunas from Germans.

[lightfire]

I really don't understand what the legal issues are.


no, you realy don't.

http://senoji.skaityta.lt/russianlies.html?


And it's their pipeline to repair, who are you to tell them where to sell their oil? If you can't support your own economy without it then why threaten good relation with ridiculous rhetoric?

...And it's our railway, our soil, our visas, who are they, to tell us how we should deal vith railway/visa policies..?If they cannot transport people and good by air and sea, then why threaten good relation with ridiculous rethoric?


lol. idiocy.

Churchill himself asked his military planners to predict what would happen in case of war with the SU. Results were not encouraging.


also I bet you grandady killed whole Soviet Divisions didn't he?

that dude was a bit overtop, just try not to follow that way, you'r smarter than this.


As far as I remember, I was in Vilnus (aka Vilno) back in communist days and pretty much everything was in Lithuanian. Lithuanian culture was well.

actually, a lot was in russian, essp in schools, but national identity, serving for the commie purposes remained and flourished essp after the Perestroika.


Lithuania SSR and present Lithuanian Republic actually benefited from commies. Vilno from Poland, Kaunas from Germans.

Kaunas from germans? wat.

Actually I'm clearly not against Vilnius, but that should not be concidered as a whitening bribe for the rest of the evil. Same goes to the "buildings" argumentation. Nobody actually asked to build this and that, no legitimate government has asked SU here in the first place, nobody is going to demolish it just because it was built by the evil commies, no need of that BS

[blackshadow69]

FYI, not all Lithuanians just surrendered their free will. My grandfather was apart of the Lithuanian Paristans that resisted the Soviet Occupation. I grew up to stories of how my grandfather shot and killed Soviet Soldiers that passed by and he buried them where they laid.
Your grandfather was a nazi as* kisser that is whol thing...In countries such Lithuania Czechoslovakia Estonia there were three types of people one were hiding under women's skirt second one that ur type nazi as* kisser and the third who decide to fight against nazis.If u dont like go and smash ur head on evry wall u see...ChingizKhan had more than half of the world in his hand so what???Go and ask him for compinsasionrofl
U Lithuanies the only thing u will get from Russia is a piece of u know what...becoz people like u deserve it(Not all Lituanies ofcorse becoz there still some people who still have a brains in there head)

[lightfire]

Your grandfather was a nazi as* kisser that is whol thing...In countries such Lithuania Czechoslovakia Estonia there were three types of people one were hiding under women's skirt second one that ur type nazi as* kisser and the third who decide to fight against nazis.If u dont like go and smash ur head on evry wall u see...ChingizKhan had more than half of the world in his hand so what???Go and ask him for compinsasionrofl
U Lithuanies the only thing u will get from Russia is a piece of u know what...becoz people like u deserve it(Not all Lituanies ofcorse becoz there still some people who still have a brains in there head)


Russian chauvinism in full colours, inability to discuss and resorting to ethnic, national hatred and insults, well done once again. I hope one day you will regret for your words with personal and unbareble pain. Reported btw.

[blackshadow69]

Russian chauvinism in full colours, inability to discuss and resorting to ethnic, national hatred and insults, well done once again. I hope one day you will regret for your words with personal and unbareble pain. Reported btw.
Russian what?roflthat is what he said...his grandfather was fighting and killing soviet soldiers so he was fighting with nazis and who fight and support nazis HE IS A NAZI AS* KISSER u like it or not...if not u can do the same smash ur head on the first wall u will see!Both my grandfathers were fighting against people like him and nazis and one died so be quite!!!!!

[Doublethinker]

As for appology, Russia is a sole successor of the SU rights.


For the zillionth time. Russia isn't a full successor. We inherited some rights and obligations as per international treaties with regards to the USSR (mostly, economical obligations - somehow Lithuanians tend to forget that we also payed for all Soviet debts and are still paying for them now, and so were offered all Soviet-owned buildings abroad).



You don't celebrate 9th of May as a day of russian victory, but as soviet victory, why so hard to recognize?


The overwhelming majority celebrates it as a day of Russian victory, simply because of the input. If you take three main Slavic nations, like Russian, Byelorussian and Ukrainian, you get an overwhelming majority of fighting troops participating in the war.




The key here is not even the appology or compensation - it would be wiped out of any talks, if you admit the fact. The the thing is that Russia denies the fact - from media to highest officials (my example of Putin, beer, his studies and occupation).
However I must tell you another thing. The fact of occupation is better discussed not by officials, but by the historians. A documented united study by lithuanian and russian historians "„SSSR i Litva v gody vtoroj mirovoj vojny“ has been made and they both recognized the fact of occupation. Various historians including prof. Alfred Erik Senn and dr. Karsten Brügemann (Forschungen zur baltischen Geschichte 3, 2008, S. 296- 301 has written possitive reviws of this study. As far asI've heard russian historians, that have worked on this study have fell under disfavour of Kremlin (they are not actually sent to Siberia as enemies of the motherland...yet..p-)). Therefore you have historical study, based on documents, without any space for drunk interpretations - a porffesional assesment. All the russian government has to do, is to admit it, thus denying any allegations of the recent years, that there was no such thing. (there was Holocaust, there were gas chambers, there was 9/11, there was an occupation as well, period.).


No arguing here.



I'm pretty sure a comprimise could then be achieved, revoking the law of compensation. However, this stuff of occupation IS NOT the issue at the table of negotiations regarding the EU at the moment. That has to be made clear, cause I've already read wild interpretations of russian media why Lithuania has blocked the treaty - assumptions, allegations, propoganda, but nothing quite real, except "Druzhba". I've mentioned four exact reasons, those are the issues that Russia can should talk about, if they want that treaty.

Yet again, EU participants have already demonstrated that when it comes to crucial issues, they might simply abandon the EU-framework and negotiate as independent countries. In the end, Lithuania will just be hurting its own interests, I believe.

[Doublethinker]

I think Georgia should apologize for Stalin, it's only fair.

And Austria - for Hitler.

[Funnage]

l
also I bet you grandady killed whole Soviet Divisions didn't he?


Oh yeah, he also told me that if it wasn't for getting shot and losing his leg he would have walked right up to Stalin and put a round in his head because he totally had that chance.
;-)


Jesus, maybe if they didn't commit murder nothing would have happed to them?

As far as I remember, I was in Vilnus (aka Vilno) back in communist days and pretty much everything was in Lithuanian. Lithuanian culture was well. So that "destroying culture" this, is a total bull****. Lithuania SSR and present Lithuanian Republic actually benefited from commies. Vilno from Poland, Kaunas from Germans.

Having your family's farm land taken by the state and a preference of teaching Russian over Lithuania, as well as the Russificatoin process undergone. But I guess I'm biased as I grew up listening to stories and having Lithuanian classes constantly talk about the issue of russification.


Russian what?roflthat is what he said...his grandfather was fighting and killing soviet soldiers so he was fighting with nazis and who fight and support nazis HE IS A NAZI AS* KISSER u like it or not...if not u can do the same smash ur head on the first wall u will see!Both my grandfathers were fighting against people like him and nazis and one died so be quite!!!!!

It's funny you say that because he was doing this after WW2 ended. He ended up leaving Lithuania in 1952 after much of the resistance was put down and, according to him, the idea of an independent Lithuania was lost.

Yeah I'm done talking about this since I'm railroading the topic.

[eskachig]

no, you realy don't.

http://senoji.skaityta.lt/russianlies.html?Those aren't really legal issues. I contend that USSR occupied the Baltic states to secure buffer territories, because they were strong and the Baltics were weak, and because the rest of the world wasn't going to do anything about it - I never pretended there were altruistic motives. It's the way of the world. They are entitled to whatever they managed to negotiate out of other fellow SSRs during the breakup and nothing else. Reparations were not part of those negotiations, so they aren't entitled to any.


...And it's our railway, our soil, our visas, who are they, to tell us how we should deal vith railway/visa policies..?If they cannot transport people and good by air and sea, then why threaten good relation with ridiculous rethoric?
Nobody? Are Russians making some railway-related demands? All I've seen in here is that you think it should be closed as way to assert pressure on Russia, but I think you'll find that Russians will simply find another way. Otherwise knock yourself out, it's your railway.

[CPL Trevoga]

Having your family's farm land taken by the state and a preference of teaching Russian over Lithuania, as well as the Russificatoin process undergone. But I guess I'm biased as I grew up listening to stories and having Lithuanian classes constantly talk about the issue of russification.


You right about the confiscated farm by commies, I didn't not think of that. The Russification issue is total bull****. Ask Lightfire, he doesn't own a balalaika.

[lightfire]

Those aren't really legal issues. I contend that USSR occupied the Baltic states to secure buffer territories, because they were strong and the Baltics were weak, and because the rest of the world wasn't going to do anything about it - I never pretended there were altruistic motives. It's the way of the world. They are entitled to whatever they managed to negotiate out of other fellow SSRs during the breakup and nothing else. Reparations were not part of those negotiations, so they aren't entitled to any.



Are you being sarcastic, or are you pretending that legal issue is "dis iz stron, diz iz weak, that concludes teh law". Not the matter what motives - legaly it's occupation, just like Austrian occupation by Germany, confirmed by the NT and Geneva.


Nobody? Are Russians making some railway-related demands? All I've seen in here is that you think it should be closed as way to assert pressure on Russia, but I think you'll find that Russians will simply find another way. Otherwise knock yourself out, it's your railway

Russians were making demands and putting unpreccedented preasure due to the Lithuanias accession to the EU in 2004. All those years russians weren't doing anything about upcomming problem with Kaliningrad - visas - railway transportation (the only effective way, since air routes aren't enough and more expencive, while sea routes aren't sufficient ebough) and then suddenlly all hell broke loose in 2004, as if the EU membership and new visa regulations was a suprise. From the governmental, media preasure to ensure easier transportation through lithuanian teritory (baisically, easier the visa prosedure) immediatelly, to mentioned radical ways, when russian ultranationalists beat conductors on the train and lock themselves up in there shouting nazi slogans. It was the matter with the EU Russia had to deal with in at first and with the EU regulations, however all of the preasure has fell on us, as if we were responsible for those regulations. And despite that, we stood our ground and diplomacy has prevailed, while russians had to make some steps back, deal with the EU and sign the agreement with us. By this day the system works. It's more expencive, more strick than before, but such are the regulations.

Now the example of the railworks I gave, was to compare it with pipeline situation - we don't get oil, we need - not happy. We ask to fix it, since for now there are no real alternatives to build pipelines from anywhere else - no reaction from the russian side. Ok, so we could do the adeqate situation for the russians - close the railway. They'll find another routs for sure, but not so fast, just like with the pipeline and people will suffer. Yet this thing I'm talking is a theoretical and NOT included into the negotiations, for what Russia and EU has 1 month from no on.


CPL Trevoga,

You right about the confiscated farm by commies, I didn't not think of that. The Russification issue is total bull****. Ask Lightfire, he doesn't own a balalaika.

the best example of russifcation policy now days are Belaruss, Latia and Estonia, not to mention central asian republics.

In 1961 commie party programe it says:

"Along with the victory of the communism in USSR, nations will get closer to each other, their economic and cultural identity will increase and communist features, common to their spiritual structure will develop. However it is a way more longer process for the national differences, esspecially linguistic ones to vansih, rather than the class differences"

Obligatorry russian in schools and universities (ant not only for language classes), however the fact that many people, including local commies strongly the process of russification has created a situation, that local language survived as the main and important one, while in Latvia and Estonia for instance, large number of russian speaking settlers have never learnt local language (hence modern problems there)

[CPL Trevoga]

In 1961 commie party programe it says:

"Along with the victory of the communism in USSR, nations will get closer to each other, their economic and cultural identity will increase and communist features, common to their spiritual structure will develop. However it is a way more longer process for the national differences, esspecially linguistic ones to vansih, rather than the class differences"

Obligatorry russian in schools and universities (ant not only for language classes), however the fact that many people, including local commies strongly the process of russification has created a situation, that local language survived as the main and important one, while in Latvia and Estonia for instance, large number of russian speaking settlers have never learnt local language (hence modern problems there)

In Belarus, Russian language and literature was additional course to native language courses of Belorussian language and literature. At no point native language was removed, forbidden. That was prudent for multinational state to have one spoken language and that's hardly Russification.

From Lithuanian history I know that Lithuanian nobility preferred Polish, Lithuanian being language of the masses, thus Lithuanian language and literature was very important to communists. Why would Soviets oppress the language of brotherly Lithuanian workers and peasants?

[Igor01]

Obligatorry russian in schools and universities (ant not only for language classes), however the fact that many people, including local commies strongly the process of russification has created a situation, that local language survived as the main and important one, while in Latvia and Estonia for instance, large number of russian speaking settlers have never learnt local language (hence modern problems there)

Russian was the language of inter-ethnic communication in the USSR. Learning it opened all the opportunities for education and career growth within the huge country that we had. It's similar to English or Hindi in present-day India. Sure, some can treasure their Telugu dialect and whine about "forced Hindization", but try getting a job or an education outside of your small community.

[KninGrad]

I just read something in Serbian newspapers that stated Lithuania got 1/3 of its territory during the Soviet "occupation". Could someone confirm this?

thanks

[Flamming_Python]

Hmmm...I don't get it. You recognize, that Russia is sole succesor, then agree that "Therefore, if there is compensation to be made, it should come from Russia I think." and then you dissagree with yourself on quite weak reality and international law grounds. The first thing about the "responsobilities" of those other 14 rebublics, is that (well, I dunno , about all of them, but as for Baltic states for instance, that have been occupied in the summer of 1940) this is not valid. They have been occupied, annexed by force by a foreign power and cannot share the responsibilities for the SU actions. Now if the state is a succesor of the SU, nomatter what reasons, it shares both debts, nukes and responsibilty. Yes, I realise what Stalin have done to russians, besides other nations, just like Hitler have done to germans and other nations, but that does not mean Germany of today, wich has little resemblence to the Third Reich (Macs would dissagree p-)), does not share the responsibility.

Here's some quick explanation from the legal ground (the pearson who wrote this is a lawyer, though his russian languge skills aren't perfect as he admits himself):

http://senoji.skaityta.lt/russianlies.html?

See, what infuriates us, is not that Russian government or russians claiming no responsibility, but the fact they deny the fact of the action itself, buth moraly and legaly. It is the lack of knowledge, historical knowledge, when during soviet times one could not speak of such matters, and the offical version of the SU is still valid in russian historiagraphy, offical statements and media announcements. See, we are not the evil joos, who after appology for the holocoust demand to return their lands, property, dig some 17 century cemetry in the center of Vilnius and demand to demolish all new buildings. No matter what reality is with the ballance of power, the principle justice of history should be made, and that would be a period, after wich better relations could evolve.

And yet, let me remind you that concering the treaty with the EU, this issue was not raised, despite russian media allegations. 4 issueas I've mentioned, they remain the same. If reality is such, then the reality of russian - EU treaty position for now is adequate as well. The "Druzhba" story is a threat to our energetic security, and that is a national interest, and while some other EU countries might wana make steps down towards Russia in fear of lack of resources, we already have this situation, and there's simply no way to step down. As for those other 3 issues, as I've said, for the russian side, if it wills, they are easily met and solved.And in fact from lithuanian side, comprimises over 2 nd and 3 rd are already to be offered.

:cantbeli::cantbeli:

OK I will spell it out again. Russia is not the USSR. Russia is the successor state of the USSR. Two very different things. Now the reason why it is a successor state is because of what I told you; political (UN permanent council seat), military (nuclear inventory) and economical (foreign debts) reasons. Now since the economical factor was inherited from the USSR to the Russian Federation, it can be argued that Russia should pay compensation for any wrong-doings.

However, from these 3 reasons you seem to want to ascribe a Moral imperative as well, arguing that Russia should apologise and/or acknowledge. Maybe that sounds reasonable from the perspective of certain former Warsaw Pact and ex-USSR nations, but among ordinary Russians in the street (not to mention the perspective of the Russian state), it will not pass, and I will attempt to explain to you why...

Allow me to pose you a question; why should it be from the perspective of an ordinary Russian, that him or his country should be anymore blamed for certain failures of the USSR than the average Ukrainian or Ukraine, the average Georgian or Georgia, the average Uzbek or Uzbekistan, etc...? Therefore, why should Russia apologize? Why not Ukraine? Why not Georgia? Why us?

All of the ex-USSR states (with the exception of the 3 Baltic states naturally), peoples and current subjects of the Russian Federation, celebrate May 9th as their victory day. Why? Because it was their victory, just as much as it was for example Russian and Belarussian. If those peoples acknowledge its successes as their own, than surely they should also acknowledge its failures as their own just as much as that of the Russians?

Of course in each of these countries you have local nationalists who view the USSR as nothing more than Russia, seek to blame Russia for all their past, present & future troubles, demonise & exaggerate its failures and either completely ignore or take credit on behalf of their own ethnic group for its successes. These idiots have grown and spread unchecked and unhamppered in many countries such as the Ukraine, but even there (as well as in the majority of the former-USSR block), they remain the minority. In Russia you also have an equivalent, Fascists, Ultra-Nationalists and Neo-Nazis that believe that Hitler's invasion of Russia was a good dead in light of the Russian revolution that in their words was nothing but a Jewish plot to destroy Russia.

Interestingly enough, when it comes to for example positive achievements of the USSR that are flat out undeniable even Ukrainian nationalists I encountered held some pride for example (perhaps encouraged by the Ukrainian roots of Korolyov), the Space Program of the USSR, which many Eastern Europeans still to this day hold closer to their heart than NASA's efforts, despite what they might or might not think about the USSR.

BTW: There is a view among some Russian nationalist elements that the USSR occupied Russian lands in much the same manner as it occupied Lithuanian. Try heaping your Russia=USSR thing on them.

[Hukatus]

Well let's put it this way... Estonia's economical growth has fallen to around 3% now for this year, where it had about 10-11% growth last year. Part of the reason is due to the credit slump, the other part of the reason is that a huge part of its transport industry was diverted and businesses could no longer do deal with Russian ones so easily. True though, the Russian ban mainly effected Russian businesses in Estonia.

C'est la vie, I guess...taxes from transit industry provided about 1,5% of our government budget, unlike the 30% number claimed by Russian media.
Main reason of smaller economical growth is the overheating of real estate sector.

[lightfire]

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1210528923.39

"Principal agreements were reached today on the proposals of Lithuania. We have found ways to reflect in the mandate of the talks the issues of the Druzhba pipeline, issues of legal cooperation with Russia, and frozen conflicts," said a statement issued by the foreign ministers of Lithuania, Poland, Sweden and Slovenia, which holds the presidency of the 27-nation EU"

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

I just read something in Serbian newspapers that stated Lithuania got 1/3 of its territory during the Soviet "occupation". Could someone confirm this?

thanks

Most of today's southern Lithuania was part of Poland until 1939. Vilna/Vlinius is historically a Polish city.

FYI, for those wondering why the "frozen conflict" issue was brought up, it is probably a ploy thrown in by the negotiators who planned this. I don't know what it's called, but it's a condition that the party who brings it up doesn't care about but makes the appearance of sacrifice - "well, we're going to give in on the frozen conflict thing, but in exchange you need to do us a big favor."

Anyway, this was probably another stupid move by the Lithuanian government to wheedle out of EU taxes or something.

Regarding the "Medininkai massacre," apparently it is not enough that people like Czesław Młynnik sat around in prison for 4 years without any evidence, now the Lithuanian government would like to imprison them some more based on the same lack of evidence?

[lightfire]

Most of today's southern Lithuania was part of Poland until 1939. Vilna/Vlinius is historically a Polish city.


incorrect and ignorant. This part was part of Poland from 1920 till 1939 as an occupied teritory, but historically it NEVER was a polish city. It was a mixed city - poles, jews, old russians, but nevertheless, a historical lithuanian capital. The fact, that many locals were polonised, i.e. they spoke rather polish than lithuanian did not make them polish in overal, just like the british were not french despite the normans.


FYI, for those wondering why the "frozen conflict" issue was brought up, it is probably a ploy thrown in by the negotiators who planned this. I don't know what it's called, but it's a condition that the party who brings it up doesn't care about but makes the appearance of sacrifice - "well, we're going to give in on the frozen conflict thing, but in exchange you need to do us a big favor."

no, no realy. Solving frozen conflict situations is the part of Lithuania's foreign policy. A compromise not a bargain is needed.


Anyway, this was probably another stupid move by the Lithuanian government to wheedle out of EU taxes or something.

clueless you are or smth. What taxes? because of this???


Regarding the "Medininkai massacre," apparently it is not enough that people like Czesław Młynnik sat around in prison for 4 years without any evidence, now the Lithuanian government would like to imprison them some more based on the same lack of evidence

there are enough evidences on Riga's OMON members and they are hiding in Russia, searched by the interpol, period.

[Sergei]

Lithuania thinks it is doing something nasty to Russia?
Think again.
The EU needs this agreement much more than Russia, and Russia doesn't seem to care much.
Oh, and watch for Medved - the businessman.
Putin has been really nice and warm with all those limitrophe countries. Now Medved with his business approach will not cut any slack.

[Afro-European]

Lithuania thinks it is doing something nasty to Russia?
Think again.
The EU needs this agreement much more than Russia, and Russia doesn't seem to care much.
Oh, and watch for Medved - the businessman.
Putin has been really nice and warm with all those limitrophe countries. Now Medved with his business approach will not cut any slack.
Yesterday Lithuana dropped its conditions against resuming "strategic" talks between Russia and the EU. Maybe Russia secretly agreed to repair the Druzhba pipeline.:)
Offtopic:Welcome back Sergei.

[Sergei]

Yesterday Lithuana dropped its conditions against resuming "strategic" talks between Russia and the EU. Maybe Russia secretly agreed to repair the Druzhba pipeline.:)
Offtopic:Welcome back Sergei.

Thanks/
And be careful entering debates with Snoshi. When he runs out of arguments, he bitches and moans to the moderator to ban the opposition.

[lightfire]

So, the real outcome is to be seen, but as for now, it seems we've achieved our aims, and the EU negotiations with Russia will commence. Everybody's happy.

[Dercius]

No, we are standin for our national interests, nomatter of the size, that is all, in someone large ***** complex allows them only to bully, threaten and tease, those are their problems. Any EU member state has a right to veto such decissions, and our country is doing so not because of fun, but because it's impossible to talk with Russia in other way.

Yeah, its ok to defend your national interests and all that stuff. But let me tell you something. You are new in the EU club, I tell you, you can say whatever you want, but it all depends on what the Paris-Berlin Axis interests are. The rest of us (italians,spanish,greeks,portuguese,austrians), we learnt it a while ago, it doesnt matter what we want, what really matters is what Berlin, Paris, and sometimes London want. The sooner you learnt it the better for you.

[dava]

Well, thats why we need the Lisboa Treaty. Streamlining european decision making. I think its quite appalling that a state compromising barely 1% of population of EU and not even 0,1% of its GDP can completely stall talks.

[dava]

The rest of us (italians,spanish,greeks,portuguese,austrians), we learnt it a while ago, it doesnt matter what we want, what really matters is what Berlin, Paris, and sometimes London want. The sooner you learnt it the better for you.

Not anymore with Lisboa Treaty.
Better rules. But Berlin, Paris and London still matter greatly. Those 3 countries count for over three quarters of EU GDP and half of its population. So its only logical.
Thats also the real reason why Turkey is such a difficult case, its sheer population size would make it equal with Germany in voting power.

[Alexandr]

So, the real outcome is to be seen, but as for now, it seems we've achieved our aims, and the EU negotiations with Russia will commence. Everybody's happy.

I hope there will not rising again (after that achievment) Latvian mind-blowing 4-billons-dollars suit against Russia "as reparations for 53 years of Soviet ocuupations"

[Dercius]

Not anymore with Lisboa Treaty.
Better rules. But Berlin, Paris and London still matter greatly. Those 3 countries count for over three quarters of EU GDP and half of its population. So its only logical.
Thats also the real reason why Turkey is such a difficult case, its sheer population size would make it equal with Germany in voting power.

Yes, thats the theory, but who is paying for the whole party???? Are you gonna tell them to pay for the drinks??. They will blackmail you or will persuade you using the agricultual funds, or the integration funds or whatever. And about the Turks, they can forget about it, because it wont happen.

[Mamont]

as for now, it seems we've achieved our aims, and the EU negotiations with Russia will commence. Everybody's happy.Please refresh my memory, what aims were achieved for real?

[lightfire]

Yeah, its ok to defend your national interests and all that stuff. But let me tell you something. You are new in the EU club, I tell you, you can say whatever you want, but it all depends on what the Paris-Berlin Axis interests are. The rest of us (italians,spanish,greeks,portuguese,austrians), we learnt it a while ago, it doesnt matter what we want, what really matters is what Berlin, Paris, and sometimes London want. The sooner you learnt it the better for you.

Not every time in every situation, no need to make an axis of evil dictators, EU CK from Berlin-Paris-London axis..Everybody understands where the powers lie and what they are capable of, but those issues (if you've read any of them) are quite understandable, this is why the negotiations have been stoped and neither Berlin, nor London or Paris have stormed Vilnius with demands to revoke veto. A compromise was a wish and it seems it has been achieved.


I hope there will not rising again (after that achievment) Latvian mind-blowing 4-billons-dollars suit against Russia "as reparations for 53 years of Soviet ocuupations"

well, it will depend on how Russia is willing to cooperate here on those issues. If promises will have weight enough, then I see no problem from lithuanian side. As for compesation for the occupation - it is not an issue here. Despite we do have a law of compensation (and thats over 30 bln$) it has no real power to Russia and in fact there are already rummors to revoke it, IF Russia recognizes the fact itself and does not deny it. Now the other, completelly different issue is with the families and persons themselves, who has suffered from deportations and forced labour. Those would be private cases, and Lithuania is only asking juridical and political help from Russia to solve them. Every and single case, just like with the jewish property or forced labour will be a private venture and it's up to russian legistative system and the victims themselves to solve that all.


Please refresh my memory, what aims were achieved for real?

those 4 issues I've mentioned have been acnowledged by the EU as valid ones, and they will be part of Russian - EU negotiations at the end of the month and Lithuania will not block the negotiations itself. Thus it won't be left unresolved with AT LEAST compromise options.

[Afro-European]

So, the real outcome is to be seen, but as for now, it seems we've achieved our aims, and the EU negotiations with Russia will commence. Everybody's happy.
Did Russia accept to repair Druzhba? to extradite the wanted Omon agents? to "pay" for the occupation?

[Igor01]

those 4 issues I've mentioned have been acnowledged by the EU as valid ones, and they will be part of Russian - EU negotiations at the end of the month and Lithuania will not block the negotiations itself. Thus it won't be left unresolved with AT LEAST compromise options.

I have a strong hunch that these "issues" will remain exactly where they are now. Neither Russia nor the big EU players see the relevance of these to the subject of the negotiations. Lithuania would be wise to asses her own geopolitical pull with at least some degree of realism.

[Mamont]

those 4 issues I've mentioned have been acnowledged by the EU as valid ones
So, did Russia accepted any of them, signed papers or anything similar? If not things went exactly as i and others were predicted. EU just bent Lithuania to act not in selfish way, but towards the common goal.

[lightfire]

Not exactly. Those issues will be the part of the upcomming Russia-EU negotiations in the end of this month and EU is on lithuanian side, so not so fast.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

clueless you are or smth. What taxes? because of this???

The Lithuanian government was not raising these requests to Russia, but to the EU. Why would they negotiate with the EU over points that bear no direct relationship to the current EU-Russian negotiations and the EU cannot do anything about? The directly stated grievances by the Lithuanian government are secondary goals at best.


there are enough evidences on Riga's OMON members and they are hiding in Russia, searched by the interpol, period.

Who is in hiding and why are they wanted? Links please. As far as I am aware, there is only unilateral wish on the part of the Lithuanian government for their extradition. Once again, this doesn't make sense as Mlynnik was arrested for 4 years in Latvia because of those events; why wasn't he extradited to Lithuania then?

[lightfire]

The Lithuanian government was not raising these requests to Russia, but to the EU. Why would they negotiate with the EU over points that bear no direct relationship to the current EU-Russian negotiations and the EU cannot do anything about? The directly stated grievances by the Lithuanian government are secondary goals at best.


and numerous times Lithuanian government was raising these issues directlly to the russian authorities. There have been either no answers or formal decline. This is why, the EU is the institution Lithuania has applied for, the one, that is trying to make agreements with Russia. Just like russians point towards Georgia, that it cannot join NATO because of its teritorial issues, Russia has to solve it's issues with EU members as well.



Who is in hiding and why are they wanted?

Aleksandr Ryzhov, Andrej Laktionov and Cheslav Mlynik, for the murder of 7 lithuanian officers. First one was arrested in Moscow 5 moths ago.


As far as I am aware, there is only unilateral wish on the part of the Lithuanian government for their extradition.

Both our countries have signed extradittion treaty, presidents ratified.


Once again, this doesn't make sense as Mlynnik was arrested for 4 years in Latvia because of those events; why wasn't he extradited to Lithuania then

I dunno, Lithuania is not Latvia, however latvians have extradited Nikulin.

What we ask from Russia is cooperation under the treaty it has signed, to extradite those persons (again, requests have been made since the beginning of the investigation), they could face trial.

Aleksandru Ryžovu, Andrejumi Laktionovu ir Česlavu Mlyniku

[Mamont]

Russia has to solve it's issues with EU members as well.Do Russia have any territorial issues with the EU or is it the other way around?

[lightfire]

Not the teritorial issues, but the issues I've mentioned for this moment.

[Sergei]

Please refresh my memory, what aims were achieved for real?

More like blowing hot air once again.

[Sergei]

Not exactly. Those issues will be the part of the upcomming Russia-EU negotiations in the end of this month and EU is on lithuanian side, so not so fast.

The only thing Lithuania is getting is more expensive gas and ears from a dead donkey which were promised by Putin.
Oh wait, that was Latvia.
Still doesn't matter, there are only 2 ears on a dead donkey and 3 baltic countries. So you will have to share.

[tommy00]

The only thing Lithuania is getting is more expensive gas and ears from a dead donkey which were promised by Putin.
Oh wait, that was Latvia.
Still doesn't matter, there are only 2 ears on a dead donkey and 3 baltic countries. So you will have to share.

I understand that some people just are stupid and arrogant..(my condolences:(...) but why show it to everyone...

[lightfire]

Because he feels the pleasure of a large bully type, when he has nothing else argumented to say.

[Sergei]

I understand that some people just are stupid and arrogant..(my condolences:(...) but why show it to everyone...

because the irony is always lost on эстонские тормоза ......:)

[RyanRyzzo]

Ne pizdi.
Take it easy, before you spark a row.

[asch]

you guys a shining examples of why our countries can't find a common grounds.
:cantbeli:

[lightfire]

you guys a shining examples of why our countries can't find a common grounds.
:cantbeli:


pretty sure we can, however there are national interests, sovereignity and national identity line, that other force bullies can not cross. There are few ways to influence matters for the big ones, but yet - there are, live with it.

[Serjey]

The point is clear another dead thread about baltics-russia relations.
The Baltics wine that Russia owe them smth after more then half-hundred years ago deals of SU.
Russia dont care anymore, by 2012 Russia will have enough ways of transist oil and gas to our partners in europe avoiding ex-soviet countries.
like Stalin said "no man - no problem"

[lightfire]

like Stalin said "no man - no problem"

indeed, a very characteristic attitude concluding the point of view of "Russia strooong !!11One one!!1".

[Serjey]

indeed, a very characteristic attitude concluding the point of view of "Russia strooong !!11One one!!1".

however, its all about that, we cant afford some problems with transist because of ex soviet block (Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, other Baltic states are main problem countries)

1 Russia Bulds and repairs tube and pays money to these countries for nothing(transist)

2 Russia depends on relations with these countries because they can turn off this transist at once.

3 I dont think Russia has or must to do smth special for Baltic states, even apologise, the no reason Russia (from 1991) owe something to baltics, and majority of russian thinks so.

4 But by 2012y we will have 2 more streams of transist, 1st under water of baltic sea to germany, second i dont remember where but also avoiding ex soviet block.
So Russia will no longer need this transist from ex soviet countries, and be more independent like our european partners. So we wont care just about all this BS.

Once again, lightfire: Russia owe you nothing! no free stations,no free energy, no free repair works, no free money. Soviet Union times are over, nowadays it is another country p-)

[lightfire]

however, its all about that, we cant afford some problems with transist because of ex soviet block (Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, other Baltic states are main problem countries)


Not very strong in geography, are you? Lithuania, Latvia and estonia are Baltic countries, there are no others, you've mentioned them all.:) However those countries aren't problems, your attitude to them is.


1 Russia Bulds and repairs tube and pays money to these countries for nothing(transist)

Incorrect. Not for nothing, but for the higher price (for Lithuania to pay), which would still be less than to build new pipeline.


2 Russia depends on relations with these countries because they can turn off this transist at once.

Theoretically they can, but ecconomically that's not reasonable.



3 I dont think Russia has or must to do smth special for Baltic states, even apologise, the no reason Russia (from 1991) owe something to baltics, and majority of russian thinks so.

you are missing the point like many russians here and elswhere do. Can't read, can't hear the arguments nor the issues themselves. You imagine things, that do not exist, interpret them and put into the mouths of others. The issues are related with legal extradiction, investigation and pipeline, NOT with appologies at this matter. The issues are very clear and have been presented to Russia many times, but since this country refuses even to discuss about it and inform it's citizens about them, the only way to get things moving is through the EU this time.


4 But by 2012y we will have 2 more streams of transist, 1st under water of baltic sea to germany, second i dont remember where but also avoiding ex soviet block.

that's all very well, but that does not contradict with the issues, neither today, nor in 2012.


So Russia will no longer need this transist from ex soviet countries, and be more independent like our european partners. So we wont care just about all this BS.

Yes, our european partners are SO independent in this matter p-)


Once again, lightfire: Russia owe you nothing! no free stations,no free energy, no free repair works, no free money. Soviet Union times are over, nowadays it is another country p-

SU times are over, responsibilities remain. You may think what you want, but as for legal terms, there are issues to be solved - if you cover criminals, murderes, refuse to extradict them despite the treaty, shut down pipeline to the neighbour without warning, refuse to admit the fact of occupation - don't expect nice play and attitude at the EU.

[Serjey]

SU times are over, responsibilities remain. You may think what you want, but as for legal terms, there are issues to be solved - if you cover criminals, murderes, refuse to extradict them despite the treaty, shut down pipeline to the neighbour without warning, refuse to admit the fact of occupation - don't expect nice play and attitude at the EU.

Where diid u find document or resolution that Russia is responsible for SU deals? That Russia responsible for occupation of Baltics and EE? Name me atleast one. Its senceless discussion.

The way of politics "Do what we want" towards Russia dont work anymore sine 90`s times. This politics leads to isolation more than progress.

By the way Leading countries of EU like Germany , France, Italy, ect have no problem with Russia and our way of bussiness. Just Baltic countries and EE can`t keep their mouth shut, and flame BS threads toward Russia.

And the last issue made me laugh, why the hell Lithuania can tell Russia about foreign politics towards Georgia, and what EU should disscuss it about? Georgia not even part of EU.

[lightfire]

Where diid u find document or resolution that Russia is responsible for SU deals? That Russia responsible for occupation of Baltics and EE? Name me atleast one. Its senceless discussion.


You russians seem to accept SU debt, seat at the security council, soviet WMDs, celebrate soviet victory days etc - all that pleases you, however, when it comes to other responsibilities, you deny them as if having nothing to do with the SU legacy. And the only argumentation for such double standard and contravercial possition is "we need UN seat etc it's in our interests". Well, screw that, if bullying smaller neighbours is in your interests, don't expect love from them.


The way of politics "Do what we want" towards Russia dont work anymore sine 90`s times. This politics leads to isolation more than progress.

It's vice versa, cause it's the russian side, that constantly scream "do what we want" and thinking that gas and oil card will let you play this forever is false.


By the way Leading countries of EU like Germany , France, Italy, ect have no problem with Russia and our way of bussiness.

Well, they don't say it loud and besides, their are bigger and don't live near Russia.


Just Baltic countries and EE can`t keep their mouth shut, and flame BS threads toward Russia.

you'd very much like to keep other mouths shut and dictate them what to do/say. Well, ain't gonna happen annymore.



And the last issue made me laugh, why the hell Lithuania can tell Russia about foreign politics towards Georgia, and what EU should disscuss it about? Georgia not even part of EU

and again, your ignorance, sir. First, Georgia is one of the directions of our foreign policy and at the present time, if you haven't noticed, there's alot of tension and dangerous playin' with guns out there recently. The goal of Lithuania here is to speak with the voice of EU and keep the hostilities of the hot spot. Russia does not recognize, but it is part of the lasting hostilities (not direct action so far though). Lithuania can tell and will tell, criticize and so on, but not dictate to Russia what to do - everyone's clear on that. The fact that EU could resolve the conflict zone, or at least bring smth possitive there, could do the trick, smth that georgian - russian (abkhazian, osetin) and moldavian - russian (padnestrian) 16 years of relations could not.

[henrichek]

You russians seem to accept SU debt, seat at the security council, soviet WMDs, celebrate soviet victory days etc - all that pleases you, ...

You are welcome to take over my pleasing debt :)

[lightfire]

You are welcome to take over my pleasing debt :)

It seems you've paid it already, or am I mistaken..:) Either way, it's your debt, your responsobilities. What we are asking you is to admit rest of the responsibilities and above all - do not deny the facts.

[Mamont]

Either way, it's your debt, your responsobilities. Then why you don't compensate your share in that debt? Why such simple thought seems to never crossed the mind of your goverment representatives, and on the contrary - they still want money from Russia.


What we are asking you is to admit rest of the responsibilities and above all - do not deny the facts.Before you ask anything present something.

[Sergei]

SU times are over, responsibilities remain. You may think what you want, but as for legal terms, there are issues to be solved - if you cover criminals, murderes, refuse to extradict them despite the treaty, shut down pipeline to the neighbour without warning, refuse to admit the fact of occupation - don't expect nice play and attitude at the EU.

Come on, chap. You would be bombed to stone age by your "allies" from far away if you didn't sell that oil terminal to the right people.
Russia is really being easy with you - you can't have lunch and eat it too.


Ladies and gentleman, it is bloody clear that the so-called "baltic economic miracle" is over and at the end of the day those countries owe to EU a buttload of money. What is a better way to get the money? That's right, bitch and moan about some "compensation" from Russia.
As I said, ask and you shall receive - 2 ears from a dead donkey.

[Flamming_Python]

You russians seem to accept SU debt, seat at the security council, soviet WMDs, celebrate soviet victory days etc - all that pleases you, however, when it comes to other responsibilities, you deny them as if having nothing to do with the SU legacy. And the only argumentation for such double standard and contravercial possition is "we need UN seat etc it's in our interests". Well, screw that, if bullying smaller neighbours is in your interests, don't expect love from them.

You are just a Russophobe plain & simple. As I already explained there is a difference between legal definitions (Russian Federation of today is technically what is left of the former USSR, due to its status as sole successor state) and moral ones.

First let me ask you, what is a Russian? The strictly ethnic Slavic Christian Orthodox definition? Or simply one who identifies as Russian (i.e. can be any ethnicitity but has his heart in Russia)? Both of those are what you can call the moral definition; i.e. the actual one.

Of course the legal definition would be anyone who is a citizen of Russia, no matter his political views, whether he is a seperatist or not, etc...

So let's assume that Russia takes responsibility for the 'occupation'. That would also imply that the Tatar, Bashkir, Buryat, Ingush, etc... peoples also take as much responsibility, as the 'Russians'. Now let's say 20 years later the country breaks into pieces again; all the republics declaring independence and a smaller, core 'Rus' state being left. You will then be left with the situation, whereby technically Chechnya will have as much responsibility for the USSR as 'Rus', whereas the Ukraine will have none at all. And I also bet that at that point people like you, will demand that all responsibility should be brought off the shoulders of the independent republics and all heaped on what is left of Russia. That's why I call such people Russophobes, and why very few Russians will listen to them. It is impossible to have a balanced conversation with a natural enemy whose fair assessment of the situation is blinded by his emotional desires to see Russia as weak as possible.

That's why I really don't understand this whole thing about 'apology'. The USSR was a joint effort. The Latvian Red Riflemen helped as much in its initial founding and success as the latter Soviet Lithuanian and Soviet Russian leaders had in preserving it throughout the 60's and 70's, and keeping it from collapse throughout the 80's, right up until the last minute.

[Sergei]

It seems you've paid it already, or am I mistaken..:) Either way, it's your debt, your responsobilities. What we are asking you is to admit rest of the responsibilities and above all - do not deny the facts.

Something tells me if push comes to shove - Lithuania should surrender all their industry and housing projects (most built during soviet days) to Russia. All this stuff never belonged to Lithuania in the first place and was just marauded during 1990-1991.
Stupid claim? Sure, as stupid as the one Lithuania is having right now.

[Serjey]

Something tells me if push comes to shove - Lithuania should surrender all their industry and housing projects (most built during soviet days) to Russia. All this stuff never belonged to Lithuania in the first place and was just marauded during 1990-1991.
Stupid claim? Sure, as stupid as the one Lithuania is having right now.

+1 and share debt of SU . pay their part of this debt to Russia, if Lithuania is so unpleased that only Russia took debt of Soviet Union(including alot of nations and alot of countries)
We`ve payed it off by the way)

[lightfire]

Then why you don't compensate your share in that debt? Why such simple thought seems to never crossed the mind of your goverment representatives, and on the contrary - they still want money from Russia.

We don't own that debt since we were occupied. As for the money compensations, I personaly never aproved this idea and did not think it to be either realistic or moral. Private compesations for deportations should be dealt in courts, not in political level.


Before you ask anything present something.

A man ordered to rape a woman. He also did this himself. Then he changed his name. then he says - if you want an appology, or at least me to admit I raped you - you should give me smth first.great.


Come on, chap. You would be bombed to stone age by your "allies" from far away if you didn't sell that oil terminal to the right people

are you suggesting americans or poles would have bombed us to stone age if we didn't gime them the oild terminal? what???


Ladies and gentleman, it is bloody clear that the so-called "baltic economic miracle" is over and at the end of the day those countries owe to EU a buttload of money. What is a better way to get the money? That's right, bitch and moan about some "compensation" from Russia.
As I said, ask and you shall receive - 2 ears from a dead donkey.

I hope to see a day, when your oil and gas money will a mirrage of a past. However neither my dreams nor your are relevant here.


You are just a Russophobe plain & simple. As I already explained there is a difference between legal definitions (Russian Federation of today is technically what is left of the former USSR, due to its status as sole successor state) and moral ones.

Russophobe...

that reminds me:

"Hey here's some hot Serb chicks"

"They look like sluts and in some cases men"

"They do not, they are Serbian flowers and are therefor perfect"

"Yeah but seriously dude, they look like hookers"

"Bite your tongue, you have insulted the motherland, you are a gay"

"Why are they wearing hooker clothes and fake tans"

"You hate us because we are Serbs"

"Mmmmmmkay"

^^^

<Cali Joe>


No, actually, i'm not russophobe, it seems you guys (look at the polls anyway) are balticphobe - surrounded by enemies. "Babusia, vyruchiai, v okrug vragi!"

It was not a fair explanation of a difference, you simply separated by your will - what you like, you keep, what you don't - you deny. And deny it soundly.


So let's assume that Russia takes responsibility for the 'occupation'. That would also imply that the Tatar, Bashkir, Buryat, Ingush, etc... peoples also take as much responsibility, as the 'Russians'. Now let's say 20 years later the country breaks into pieces again; all the republics declaring independence and a smaller, core 'Rus' state being left. You will then be left with the situation, whereby technically Chechnya will have as much responsibility for the USSR as 'Rus', whereas the Ukraine will have none at all. And I also bet that at that point people like you, will demand that all responsibility should be brought off the shoulders of the independent republics and all heaped on what is left of Russia. That's why I call such people Russophobes, and why very few Russians will listen to them. It is impossible to have a balanced conversation with a natural enemy whose fair assessment of the situation is blinded by his emotional desires to see Russia as weak as possible.

I see a lot of dreadful "let's say" crap. First thing to do is NOT TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY as russians or Russia, but NOT TO DENY the fact. Just say it - yea, so it was, USSR has occupied Baltic countries and we admit this. We are the legal succesors, but NO, we won't talk about any compensations you are talking about, however we will see, that the deported people, that are willing to go on court would have a right to do so. THAT'S IT!

You can always say NO, this is the line. We can say it was so, we do not deny it, but we are a different country today. We are sorry it happened, but hey, understand us too - we also suffered from Stalinist terror, who will compensate us, who should we ask for pardon? Ghost of Stalin? Beria? the whole comunist party or just the CK?

Just like we do not deny, there have been lithuanians who murdered jews, we do not deny the holocaust, same YOU could do. And neither your pride, nor legal side would suffer from this. Is it your imperial ambitions, "tupaja gordast" or smth in your sentiments that does not allow you to acknowledge this?


Something tells me if push comes to shove - Lithuania should surrender all their industry and housing projects (most built during soviet days) to Russia. All this stuff never belonged to Lithuania in the first place and was just marauded during 1990-1991.
Stupid claim? Sure, as stupid as the one Lithuania is having right now.

That is stupid. We didn't ask you to build it, we didn't ask you occupy us in the first place, deport, kill, we didn't ask for loans, debts, SU never consulted this nor cared. What was built, was built for the purposes of SU, it's economical, military potential and to give minimal for appeasement of the locals. And yet we've gained independence, stood for it in 1990 again in 1991 January. As for maraudering, you should take interest of the belongings what SU captured in 1940 and never returned, and not so valuable, but for the sake of ridiculiness - what soviet troops have maraudered after leaving TV tower of Vilnius and Radio and TV building. Everything - chairs, tables, equipment, and destroyed a lot inside, what they couldn't carry. That's just insane, so don't you spill your s*it about marauders...

[Mamont]

We don't own that debt since we were occupied. Oh, rly? Wasn't your first president a former member of KPSS?


As for the money compensations, I personaly never aproved this idea and did not think it to be either realistic or moral. Than how come adamkus is still in power and this idea is not forgotten? What you think personnally matters very little when it comes to relations between Russia and Lithuania.


Private compesations for deportations should be dealt in courts, not in political level.I guess as a sign of good will Lithuania should first find those, who killed soviets after the ww2 and trial them for murder of course compensating relatives for the death, if no realtives left, money should go to Russia. Lithuania could even create a fund to help victims of the terrorists "forrest brothers".


A man ordered to rape a woman. (BS skipped)As usual your analogy is way off, comrade. Now is year 2008, Lithuania breaks from SU in 1990. But it seems most of the people there still live in 1939. A shame, really. The more you and your president talk, the more obvious is that you need a shock therapy to bring you consciousness to the present time, to heal your collective mind. Really if you can't do that by yourself, someone has.


We didn't ask you to build itThan build your own, return what belongs to the dreaded SU to Russia. Quite simple.

[lightfire]

Oh, rly? Wasn't your first president a former member of KPSS?


He was. Point?


Than how come adamkus is still in power and this idea is not forgotten? What you think personnally matters very little when it comes to relations between Russia and Lithuania.

He has been elected as a president, while the law was passed by the 1996-2000 conservative Seimas (Parliament), when possition towards Russia was way more neggative than today.


I guess as a sign of good will Lithuania should first find those, who killed soviets after the ww2 and trial them for murder of course compensating relatives for the death, if no realtives left, money should go to Russia. Lithuania could even create a fund to help victims of the terrorists "forrest brothers".

reported for ignorance and national abuse.
Explanation for the rest - partisans resisted the occupation and have killed soviet troops and colaborators. You are derailling the point towards "nazis should get the compensation for the killed ones".


As usual your analogy is way off, comrade. Now is year 2008, Lithuania breaks from SU in 1990. But it seems most of the people there still live in 1939. A shame, really. The more you and your president talk, the more obvious is that you need a shock therapy to bring you consciousness to the present time, to heal your collective mind. Really if you can't do that by yourself, someone has.

time for facts does not matter.


Than build your own, return what belongs to the dreaded SU to Russia. Quite simpl

again, derailing the point - you'd realisticly expect to demolish every factory and building and etc. built during soviet times? You lock a person to the prisson, take some of his belongings,demolish parts of the structure, build your own attachment, the release him and mockingly expect him to return those belongings?

[eskachig]

I see a lot of dreadful "let's say" crap. First thing to do is NOT TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY as russians or Russia, but NOT TO DENY the fact. Just say it - yea, so it was, USSR has occupied Baltic countries and we admit this. We are the legal succesors, but NO, we won't talk about any compensations you are talking about, however we will see, that the deported people, that are willing to go on court would have a right to do so. THAT'S IT!

You can always say NO, this is the line. We can say it was so, we do not deny it, but we are a different country today. We are sorry it happened, but hey, understand us too - we also suffered from Stalinist terror, who will compensate us, who should we ask for pardon? Ghost of Stalin? Beria? the whole comunist party or just the CK?You take this so personally, it's kind of funny. Lithuania was a little badass in the middle ages and I certainly don't see it apologizing for all the suffering it has caused over hundreds of years. But now it's weak and little and the big boys will kick it around when times are troubled.

Russia has given its unofficial answer. It doesn't give a rat's ass about what happened. It did what was in its national interests and will always continue to do so. There is no justice, law, or morality in anything that happens between nations, only some vague treaties.

As for deportations, etc, that's a legal impossibility. Do you see Iraquis suing their government over things Saddam did?

[Mamont]

He was. Point?He was a member of an oppresing party. An active communist. How many members of the goverment were former communists?


reported for ignorance and national abuse.Can't stand the heat? In our private discussion you already shown ignorance of your own history. Continuing the trend here?


Explanation for the rest - partisans resisted the occupation and have killed soviet troops and colaborators. Really? Let's see a couple of examples:

September 28, 1946
Group of VÈA (Vytis Command) partisans led by J. Survila (Sarunas) attack town of Siesikai in Ukmerge district, burn down MVD building, shoot several county activists (communists).
December 9, 1946
Partisans attack Skapiskis railway station in the district of Rokiskis killing stationmaster and 2 individuals.
April 18, 1948
Partisans explode a mine during a dance at a club in Merkine, killing a NKVD lieutenant and 2 civilians, injuring 19 people.
May 7, 1948
Varena county, near Barciai village. Partisans prepare an ambush for Soviet sympathisers and Communist Party activists who were selling Soviet government bonds. Of the accompanying military and collaborators, nine were killed and ten injured.
July 5, 1948
Daugai town, Alytus district. Partisans throw a hand grenade into a dance club: 3 communist activists killed, 8 wounded.
March 15, 1949
Partisans of Lokys (“Bear”) Special Team, acting on orders from the leadership of RL (East Lithuania) region, begin a widespread anti-kolchoz (collective farm) campaign: by year’s end they have liquidated 14 communist activists and their families; they cut off the hair of kolchoz "pioneers" and shaved off the beards of pro-Soviet Russian Orthodox “old believers”.

Typical terror activity.


You are derailling the point towards "nazis should get the compensation for the killed ones".Note - you say nazis. Not me. Also, do you want to say that the victims of the struggle between "forest brothers" and SU are not worth the mention or at least support? Or only those, oppressed by SU matters and deserve a compensation, but those killed and injured by "freedom fighters" are not?


again, derailing the point - you'd realisticly expect to demolish every factory and building and etc. built during soviet times? Comrade, your country actively rejects all what happened through soviet times. Be consistent in this rejection/hatred to the end.


You lock a person to the prisson, (another BS skipped)Please, you already shown inability to put analogies correctly.

[Serjey]

Its pointless discussion with lightfire anti-russian Lithuanian citizen, who is just screaming about some responsibilities of Russia for Soviet Union deals in 50es.
lightfire can`t even name any document that proofs responsibilities of Russia for Soviet Union deals, and EE/Baltic occupation, because there is no such document.

Russia was one of numerous states of Soviet Union, and the fact that Russia took debt of all states ater collapse is very frendly action, and all states should say "thanks" but not talking senceless BS.

[Sergei]

We don't own that debt since we were occupied.

Typical "victim" mentality.

With independence comes responsibility (financial to boot) - you and your country seem to possess neither.
Watch EU kick these loud hotshots under the bed.