Use and future of side arms? (Pistols)

[SOG]

Just a question I had that I thought was strange:
I remember seeing in some recent thread I think (Sorry, can't remember where) where a bunch of soldiers had been doing missions and didn't have their side arms? (Americans, maybe Marines?)

Is the side arm very relevant anymore? Is it just more weight to carry?

For all you soldiers/experienced out there:
1. Are you issued a side arm?
2. Do you carry it on deployment?
3. Do you ever train with it? Range time etc?
4. How would you feel if the military by and large ditched it?
5. Do any other military's not issue a standard side arm? Does it work for them?

I had never thought about it really but is the pistol for the general soldier just a non issue?

[KEEPER0311]

In general a normal infantry man in the Marine Corps doesn't carry a sidearm unless it's needed( Mortarmen, Machine Gunner(240B, M2) ). We all get basic introduction with the service pistol, but unless we are going to be using it, we generally don't fire it or handle them often.

[vinny_121_ND]

There was also a similar question asking if rangers are issued sidearms, and the answer was no. If they do, it's a M9.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=132511&highlight=ranger

[SOG]

There was also a similar question asking if rangers are issued sidearms, and the answer was no. If they do, it's a M9.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=132511&highlight=ranger

Yup, that was it!

So side arms are simply not carried/used in real combat except by maybe very specific forces?

[Roy Batty]

I am issued either a BHP or Sig Sauer 226 (currently the 226). I carry it everywhere while deployed. I get a fair bit of range time with it and spend a lot of time doing transition drills from my C8 to my sidearm. I probably train more with it than most CF members due to my current job but I would hate to deploy without it.

[PennyWise]

Shouldn't this be in the Equipment and Gear (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8) section?

[SilentType]

Problem is that body armor is starting to become more common. However, at the same time we've got close in urban combat becoming the norm. Hard to beat a pistol for close-in work sometimes whether inside a tight building or a ship. Plus, you never know when your primary rifle could have a malfunction or failure. There isn't a rifle out there that can't fail or malfunction.

I'm not that crazy about the 5.7 pistol and I think there is defintely room for someone to come out with an AP pistol round that is different than the 9mm AP and 5.7x28mm rounds currently offered up.

FMJ is the suck as well and I'll never understand why JHP was made illegal for military use.

[vinny_121_ND]

FMJ is the suck as well and I'll never understand why JHP was made illegal for military use.
Same here in the Canadian Forces. JHP is only used by police officers.

[Calanen]

As any Elite Team Fighter knows, when your M-16A2 jams, you throw it away and draw your pistol, engaging 'skinnies' at 400 yards with it. It's your 'backup' weapon. You can also carry a duck hunting shotgun with you as well, and wear a SWAT helmet.

[....]

I am issued either a BHP or Sig Sauer 226 (currently the 226). I carry it everywhere while deployed. I get a fair bit of range time with it and spend a lot of time doing transition drills from my C8 to my sidearm. I probably train more with it than most CF members due to my current job but I would hate to deploy without it.

Forgive my ignorance, but when did non JTF-2 Canadian forces start to use SIG p226's?

[justagoodolboy]

I'm speaking purely from a non BTDT status, as I have not been deployed yet in my short military career. I was trained and qualified with the M9 service pistol. I will be issued one when deployed. The side arm is a valuable tool for a few reasons. The obvious reasons being a second line of defense and for use in situations in which whatever reason your rifle is not accessible, useable etc. Also, it allows you to present a downgraded appearance to those you are trying to build ******* with, without being defenseless or appearing as such. It could be perceived as insulting if you're invited into the house of a prominent figure in Baghdad to talk peace and yet you're not confident enough in your host to trust that he will be able to protect you in his own home.

Just my .02$

[Roy Batty]

Forgive my ignorance, but when did non JTF-2 Canadian forces start to use SIG p226's?

nevermind......

[vinny_121_ND]

Forgive my ignorance, but when did non JTF-2 Canadian forces start to use SIG p226's?
---------------------. Nevermind.

[....]

I know that boarding parties use them, when exactly, I don't know.

Naw man, you're thinking the 225-its a single stack. The 226 is a new addition

that I was unaware of. I did see a pic of a canadian soldier with a 226 in a BHI serpa a couple of weeks ago.

[Roy Batty]

Naw man, you're thinking the 225-its a single stack. The 226 is a new addition

that I was unaware of. I did see a pic of a canadian soldier with a 226 in a BHI serpa a couple of weeks ago.

Which pic was that if you dont mind me asking?

[....]

Which pic was that if you dont mind me asking?

I'm sorry for making this an opsec issue, wasn't my intention, but the pic was in one of the daily threads that He219, BD, EMT have. I think the soldier may have been a CP MP as he had a simple plate carrier no cumberbum over a vest, a c8 carbine, and a pistol in a serpa belt holster. I figured it was a 226 because it had the newer stippled grips of the newer SIG pistols. The 225 was always checkered. Anyway, I'm sorry but I don't have the pic, it was just in a daily pic thread.

[Roy Batty]

No worries. I've seen the pic. The CPP is no longer just MPs. It's now open to all trades in the CF.

[Karaahmetoglu]

I think someone needs to come up with a round that is something like 7.6 to 8mm that is bottlenecked like rifle rounds and also make the length long take for example 9X19mm length is just that 19mm, for this round it should be something like 34mm that would be pushing it soo. Along with the bottle necking make the tip of the round (forgot name) same as the ones in rifles not like in pistols, rifle tips are much much more aerodynamic also make the brass really thick allowing much powerful powders. A round like this could go 2300 FPS, and could go through body amour. But hey who is listening?

[Campari]

I'm speaking purely from a non BTDT status, as I have not been deployed yet in my short military career. I was trained and qualified with the M9 service pistol. I will be issued one when deployed. The side arm is a valuable tool for a few reasons. The obvious reasons being a second line of defense and for use in situations in which whatever reason your rifle is not accessible, useable etc. Also, it allows you to present a downgraded appearance to those you are trying to build ******* with, without being defenseless or appearing as such. It could be perceived as insulting if you're invited into the house of a prominent figure in Baghdad to talk peace and yet you're not confident enough in your host to trust that he will be able to protect you in his own home.

Just my .02$

Good one. I may add that for VCP's or other checkpoints a handgun comes in quite handy for the guy searching a car or a person. Much easier accessible than a rifle slung to your back and not that intimidating, wich is always a good thing on a peacekeeping mission. That was my experience during my time with the KFOR.
Nowadays, I carry a handgun as well as a rifle, troops specialized in MOUT are issued both wich makes good sense to me. Having a stoppage while clearing a house really sucks, having a handgun for self-defense at hand is in my eyes a good idea!

[ex Strathcona]

Forgive my ignorance, but when did non JTF-2 Canadian forces start to use SIG p226's?
"if" i am not mistaken pilots were being issued them as far back as the mid 90's while i was still in. i remember seeing some shooting at Canaught durring the DCRA shoots.

[Jippo]

But hey who is listening?

Since you're suggesting that a pistol should be chambered in a rifle caliber (7,62x39), probably nobody.

[gilgoul]

Since I have my carry license, I always carry my glock with me also in the reserve.
Usually in a thigh holster with an extra mag.
And I keep my civilian ultra shock JHP in the mag.

On base, I put it in an inside holster.

Just a good back up and since I don't hump that much (vehicle patrol/check point duty mainly), I don't mind the extra weight.
Also, when I have to drive on patrol, it is definitely a better option than having to pop out my M16.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Since you're suggesting that a pistol should be chambered in a rifle caliber (7,62x39), probably nobody.


Did i say those exact words no I said a pistol round that imitates a rifle one.

[Jippo]

Yes, you said 2300fps 7,6-8mm round. Which is exactly what 7,62x39 is.

And which again is uncontrollable in a pistol.

Well, to be honest, it is possible as we have weapons like .500S&W, .454 Casull and .45-70 T/C Contenders. But those are highly specialised handguns for special purposes.

But for a service pistol 10mm Auto was the upper limit for most people.

[Roy Batty]

Another reason for a side arm that nobody has mentioned yet is certain societies perceptions of pistols. In Afghanistan almost everyone has an AK but only the "tough guys" carry pistols. It is sometimes easier in that society to command respect with a pistol on your hip than with the C8 in your hands.

[Rancid]

FMJ is the suck as well and I'll never understand why JHP was made illegal for military use.


First Hague Peace Conference (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm) of (29 July) 1899 which states:


The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,



Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/decpeter.htm) of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,



Declare as follows:



"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."



The USA have not signed this declaration, but did sign this one;



the Hague Convention IV of 1907, Article 23(e) (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm#art23) of which Annex states:



"…it is especially forbidden -



To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

[SOG]

unnecessary suffering

So is letting them bleed out from a small caliber wound unnecessary suffering or killing them with a more lethal but arguably painful round more suffering? I can see that going in circles.

[justagoodolboy]

Another reason for a side arm that nobody has mentioned yet is certain societies perceptions of pistols. In Afghanistan almost everyone has an AK but only the "tough guys" carry pistols. It is sometimes easier in that society to command respect with a pistol on your hip than with the C8 in your hands.

Its the pop-culture thing. Some countries have boys growing up seeing "assault rifles" since a young age, but the only handguns they see are being carried by the badasses in movies from the west

[big_les]

So is letting them bleed out from a small caliber wound unnecessary suffering or killing them with a more lethal but arguably painful round more suffering? I can see that going in circles.

You're right of course; but early C20th logic (politicians and surgeons) went that any wound worse than a simple permanent wound channel was "un-necessary", because the former would incapacitate ones civilised opponent, who would sit and wait for a stretcher whilst crying "I say you chaps, wizard shot, what?". Or, it would hit a critical structure and kill them outright. Hence in the conference room, it made sense to disallow exploding and expanding rounds.

Of course even us chairborne types know that often doesn't happen. Hell, soldiers knew it back then too (hence dumdums, which got officially adopted just before the convention kicked in). But that didn't stop the above interpretation of the Hague convention becoming standard, resulting in FMJ rounds across the board, even for pistols eventually. The brass of most of the world's militaries didn't really care and were happy to comply to keep the politicos happy, because a hit from an FMJ .303 (for example) would indeed take an enemy soldier out of the fight more often than not (small comfort to the man on the ground of course). In fact they welcomed streamlined/round-nosed (in the case of pistol) FMJ rounds because they had range and accuracy and fed easily in self-loaders.

So I would say that the average soldier relying on a pistol is handicapped by outdated senses of what's moral and ethical on the battlefield. Whereas even our armed police use hollowpoints (or dum dums as the media amusingly insists on calling them). Now of course, the idea in law enforcement AND in battle (though the laws may not reflect it) is that if you open fire, you do so to kill or to incapacitate ASAP, which means firing as many shots as it takes of whatever you have.

[Jippo]

So I would say that the average soldier relying on a pistol is handicapped by outdated senses of what's moral and ethical on the battlefield. Whereas even our armed police use hollowpoints (or dum dums as the media amusingly insists on calling them). Now of course, the idea in law enforcement AND in battle (though the laws may not reflect it) is that if you open fire, you do so to kill or to incapacitate ASAP, which means firing as many shots as it takes of whatever you have.

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I can't help myself. HP or fragmenting FMJ will cause wounds that require more extensive surgery to heal properly. Large tissue damage also causes higher risk of inflammation in the wound. These factors do not make a difference in the heat of the battle but will certainly affect the person injured if he lives. And in all honesty I do not think that an average soldier will keep fighting after he gets a bullet hole on him, be it HP or FMJ.

With most pistol calibers the HP naturally will not fragment, so it is not such a big deal.

[JoaMei]

Well... the answer to this thread is pretty obvious:

http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/SCHV_PDWs/hk_mp7_MP.jpg

[big_les]

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I can't help myself. HP or fragmenting FMJ will cause wounds that require more extensive surgery to heal properly. Large tissue damage also causes higher risk of inflammation in the wound. These factors do not make a difference in the heat of the battle but will certainly affect the person injured if he lives.

Of course - that's the whole reasoning behind the Hague convention. I personally think it's ridiculous, if you're trying to kill people, to worry about how bad their wounds might be IF they survive. It's war, for goodness sake. The whole concept only works in conventional warfare between "civilised" developed industrial nations, where there's tacit agreement not to start using more lethal/damaging ammo, so that the other side won't escalate. When fighting "irregular" war, this just doesn't apply. If it can be justified for law enforcement, it sure as hell can apply to warfare, IMO.


And in all honesty I do not think that an average soldier will keep fighting after he gets a bullet hole on him, be it HP or FMJ.

If the data on law enforcement is comparable to a military situation, and based on what I've read (not a soldier) it happens enough to allow some enemy combatants to at least return fire, if not waltz off happy as Larry. Whereas if hit by something more potent, they might well be unable to do so.


With most pistol calibers the HP naturally will not fragment, so it is not such a big deal.

True, but the expansion issue, which is where this sidetrack is relevant to the OP, is covered by Hague. It's even more crucial at pistol engagement ranges (with non-tumbling, subsonic rounds) that the round be as incapacitating as possible after impact. I doubt such engagements are happening often enough (with lack of incapacitation) for it to be a worry. And as ever, shot placement is key. And with body armour, HPs become less effective in any case.

But my point really was that the theory behind the "humanitarian" restrictions in the context of trying to kill people with small arms makes little sense to me beyond squeamishness. It's a way of hypocritically reassuring ourselves that we aren't cruel.

As to small calibre PDWs - testing has AFAIK shown the rounds to be lacking in effectiveness compared even to 9mm FMJ.

[Beowulf]

For all you soldiers/experienced out there:
1. Are you issued a side arm?
2. Do you carry it on deployment?
3. Do you ever train with it? Range time etc?
4. How would you feel if the military by and large ditched it?
5. Do any other military's not issue a standard side arm? Does it work for them?



1,2,3: Yes

4. I think that it is a valuable tool. Useful in most situations, but particularly in urban scenarios. Especially if I'm riding a truck. When I went on longer field ops in the mountains I would generally leave the pistol behind.

We were dismounted for long periods of time and ounces make pounds, also our engagement ranges were generally greater than 100 meters, and usually just inside of small arms range (point target).

However, my job requires me to work with small teams, to work with local nationals, and to work in urban environments or confined spaces.

So as with most things in the military it is largely METT-TC dependent. I think all of our combat arms MOS' should have familiarity with sidearms.

[Roy Batty]

my job requires me to work with small teams, to work with local nationals, and to work in urban environments or confined spaces.


Besides it's a real bitch trying to do Dirty Harry impersonations with a C7.....

[Seraphim]

No worries. I've seen the pic. The CPP is no longer just MPs. It's now open to all trades in the CF.

Got a link to the pic?

[Roy Batty]

I think he means this one:

http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&catalog=photos&template=detail_e.np&field=itemid&op=matches&value=34250&site=combatcamera

[gilgoul]

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I can't help myself. HP or fragmenting FMJ will cause wounds that require more extensive surgery to heal properly. Large tissue damage also causes higher risk of inflammation in the wound. These factors do not make a difference in the heat of the battle but will certainly affect the person injured if he lives. And in all honesty I do not think that an average soldier will keep fighting after he gets a bullet hole on him, be it HP or FMJ.

With most pistol calibers the HP naturally will not fragment, so it is not such a big deal.

Maybe true, but if heaven forbid I have to use my 9mm, it means that things got close and dirty, and I'd like to make sure that the person I shoot at is incapacitated.
And quite honestly, the NATO as well as Soviet rifle calibers often do just that by tumbling, spalling and fragmenting just in the way that should have been prevented by the conventions.

Also, and that's why FMJ is forbidden in most LE agencies around, an FMJ will quite easily go thru a target at close range, and remain a potential danger for a passer by behind the threat.

I consider check point duty more of a police than strictly military job, and I would hate to injure someone behind my target in case of a bad situation.
That's also why I keep my JHP in my mag, if I have to use my side arm, I want to be able to blow my target off, without having to risk the health or the life of any passerby, and if I have to be judged for that, so be it.

[MetroN]

I have the impression that using a suppressed pistol is a possibility for most armies in the world, but no-one ever does or perhaps wants to. Seems like anytime they need a suppressed weapon they prefer their rifles/carbines, guessing that's because they use their rifles/carbines more than they'll ever use a pistol. And I can totally understand that.

[Seraphim]

Thanks Sig.

[Corrupt]

Well picked up from cadets (although now 18 my application to becoma a h'officer as started:D) for the British Army it is

For all you soldiers/experienced out there:
1. Are you issued a side arm?-No Unless you're SAS or Aircrew really, even then rarely. Senior officers have one on their rare rare trips in country to dangerous areas mind
2. Do you carry it on deployment? See above
3. Do you ever train with it? Range time etc?Occasionally range time for the Browning High power for regulars, otherwise no
4. How would you feel if the military by and large ditched it? Already have
5. Do any other military's not issue a standard side arm? Does it work for them? Irrelevant question

The pics of Harry in Iraq showed him with either a Browning or Beretta 92 stuffed into the front of his body armour all the time though when none of the other blokes got one. Royalty eh? I love em!

As to the Hollowpoint/Dum Dum Rounds, summed up by one particularly down to earth corporal who said "You never ever File the tips of rounds flat to make them work better" while grinning and nodding his head/making filing motions with his hands

[BrianT]

I have the impression that using a suppressed pistol is a possibility for most armies in the world, but no-one ever does or perhaps wants to. Seems like anytime they need a suppressed weapon they prefer their rifles/carbines, guessing that's because they use their rifles/carbines more than they'll ever use a pistol. And I can totally understand that.
That probably has more to do with the fact that a pistol is firstly a backup weapon. If you're using yourr backup, chances are things aren't quiet any longer. Two, a pistol is used in confine spaces. Surpressors are long. Kind of defeats the purpose.

[Rancid]

.......to earth corporal who said "You never ever File the tips of rounds flat to make them work better" while grinning and nodding his head/making filing motions with his hands

You never ever file the tips of rounds, because they usually jam the pistol and if you've been putting big holes in people if they catch you they kill you and it's against the convention which will get you trouble if you're caught by your own side.

I spent 16yrs in the Army, I fired thousands and thousands of rds through pistols and saw thousands and thousands of 9mm rds issued as training and operational ammo all of it FMJ no one ever filed the tips flat. If the British Army require you to have HP/SP ammo you'd get issued it. For instance whilst I was in the Army the RMP VIP Close Protection teams were issued SP 9mm ammo.

Only idiots would would file the tips and make the round shorter and more likely to jam...

[MetroN]

That probably has more to do with the fact that a pistol is firstly a backup weapon. If you're using your backup, chances are things aren't quiet any longer. Two, a pistol is used in confine spaces. Suppressors are long. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Thank you for your answer sir.

It's just something that's stuck with me since 'Tears of the Sun'.

[schwarz]

Excuse my ignorance on this subject but wouldn’t terrorists be excluded from the GC (Al-Qaeda/insurgents)?

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;


I am sure this has been discussed on similar subjects before dealing with interrogation techniques and other things.


Sorry to get off topic even more.

[Roy Batty]

I am bound by my oaths and training to follow the Laws of Warfare regardless of who I'm up against. I'm a soldier not a terrorist so the laws apply to me all the time.

[Corrupt]

You never ever file the tips of rounds, because they usually jam the pistol and if you've been putting big holes in people if they catch you they kill you and it's against the convention which will get you trouble if you're caught by your own side.

I mean on the rifles 5.56 rounds. Wasn't my idea. Just remarking on how he described it. Besides it would only be on ops, so on the range you wouldnt notice I guess

[Rancid]

I mean on the rifles 5.56 rounds. Wasn't my idea. Just remarking on how he described it. Besides it would only be on ops, so on the range you wouldnt notice I guess

Even more problems if you file the tips on 5.56 rds. The filed rds would jam, would not hit the same POA as unfiled rds (so your zero would be out) etc etc etc

You really don't want to believe everything your Corporals say.

[Corrupt]

Fairy snuff
Though the manic grin he had on his face during this little talk still worries me

[vinny_121_ND]

I mean on the rifles 5.56 rounds. Wasn't my idea. Just remarking on how he described it. Besides it would only be on ops, so on the range you wouldnt notice I guess

The effective range of that round would drop substantially if you file it. There's always a fine line between smart and stupid.

[JoaMei]

The effective range of that round would drop substantially if you file it. There's always a fine line between smart and stupid.

Plus if you file of the tip to much there is the Danger the Jacket separates from the lead core in the barrel. That will result in a kaboom of the weapon....

[Corrupt]

Well with the example round he used it was shortened by about 2mm or so, just so that the point was gone, nothing massive. I guess he wasn't too worried about accuracy and was expecting any firing to be short range.
That or he was having us cadets on:P