Moslem cleric in England says killing non-Moslems is OK

[seruriermarshal]

Moslem cleric in England says killing non-Moslems is OK

By: John Russell | Source: IRN NEWS
May 27, 2004 5:29PM EST


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A leading Muslim teacher in the United Kingdom is telling his followers that the killing of non-Moslems is in accordance with Islamic teachings. Shiek Abu Hamsa of the notorious Finsbury Park Mosque in London has been videotaped telling his congregation that, “If a Kafir (that is a non-Moslem)is walking by you and you catch him he’s booty (that is a slave), you can sell him in the market. Most of them are spies. And even if they don’t do anything, if Moslems can not take them and sell them in the market, you just kill them, its OK.” Hamsa went on to say that that Americans are especially worthy of death.



From (http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=2328&category=)

[Mark Sman]

Does the UK have a "conspiracy to murder" type law?

[scm77]

But I thought Islam was a religion of peace. Hmmmmm...

[American Patriot]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.

[Ratamacue]

But I thought Islam was a religion of peace. Hmmmmm...

It is. The problem is that many interpret it as "peace through murder of infidels." Think of Muslim radicals as akin to the KKK.

[Chris1]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.
As I expect all Christian organisations to denounce Joseph Kony.
Why haven't they?
Of couse
why should they care about some piece of **** in another country who calls himself a preacher.

[seruriermarshal]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.
As I expect all Christian organisations to denounce Joseph Kony.
Why haven't they?
Of couse
why should they care about some piece of **** in another country who calls himself a preacher.

:roll:

[cut]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.
As I expect all Christian organisations to denounce Joseph Kony.
Why haven't they?
Of couse
why should they care about some piece of **** in another country who calls himself a preacher.

:roll:

So you thinks it's ok if they're christian?

[seruriermarshal]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.
As I expect all Christian organisations to denounce Joseph Kony.
Why haven't they?
Of couse
why should they care about some piece of **** in another country who calls himself a preacher.

:roll:

So you thinks it's ok if they're christian?

In fact I don't know who's Joseph Kony ?

[Chris1]

Point proven.

[seruriermarshal]

Point proven.

?

:roll:

[American Patriot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kony

[seruriermarshal]

I can't access this link , who can give me a proxy server ? thanks .

[cut]

Joseph Kony is the primary leader of the Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army. The LRA is a group that is enganged in a violent campaign to establish a theocratic government in Uganda based on the Bible and the Ten Commandments. The Uganda government says Mr Kony is based in Southern Sudan.

[seruriermarshal]

Joseph Kony is the primary leader of the Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army. The LRA is a group that is enganged in a violent campaign to establish a theocratic government in Uganda based on the Bible and the Ten Commandments. The Uganda government says Mr Kony is based in Southern Sudan.

Thank you cut , In fact it's a cults, is illegal, but I felt strange Moslem cleric that says killing non-Moslems is OK , can be legitimate exists in England ?

[Fintin]

fring groups are bound to happen in any orginazation....muslims have groups that advocate the killing of non muslims...the KKK in the US clames to be christian...if either one of these groups sat back and read the books they say they believe in....they would **** themselves...you cant blam muslims....and you cant blam christians...on the whole they arent responsible....however you can blam the small fring groups that piss everyone off

[seruriermarshal]

fring groups are bound to happen in any orginazation....muslims have groups that advocate the killing of non muslims...the KKK in the US clames to be christian...if either one of these groups sat back and read the books they say they believe in....they would **** themselves...you cant blam muslims....and you cant blam christians...on the whole they arent responsible....however you can blam the small fring groups that piss everyone off

fring groups are cults , but they still send their think to world ......

[One?]

I expect all American Moslem organizations to denounce this man.
As I expect all Christian organisations to denounce Joseph Kony.
Why haven't they?
Of couse
why should they care about some piece of **** in another country who calls himself a preacher.


that sums it up!

give him attention and he will become popular. There are over 1 million preachers. you can't control all of them.

[mmackem]

Ah, good old Abu Hamza LOL.

He is a ex mujahadeen, who lost a hand and an eye fighting the Russians. (which means he was probably on our side at one point :( )

He is wanted around the world for kidnaping and and other terrorist stuff.
So that's obviously why the British government has been giving him $1000 a week in benifits for the last 10 years LOL.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs, I mean even Bin Laden used to live in North London, near Abu Hamza (OBL was an Arsenal Fan!)

And they have already linked Hamza's mosque in Finsbury Road to the Madrid bombing's.

Abu Hamza:
http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/*******_molt/3571353281.jpg

[scm77]

Another ugly ass radical muslim leader for that other thread we had a few days ago. :lol:

[usa320]

Why dont people just beat the **** out of these jerkoffs? Sometimes street justice is the best form of justice.

[seruriermarshal]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040529/capt.gaz10105292352.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz101.jpg

Palestinians gather next to the remains of a motorcycle after it was hit an Israeli helicopter at Zaitoon neighborhood in Gaza city, Sunday May 30, 2004. An explosion ripped apart a motorcycle in Gaza City early Sunday, residents said, killing three people _ including a senior Hamas commander and his assistant. Hamas charged that Israel was responsible for what it called a 'dirty assassination crime' killing Wael Nassar, 38, a top Hamas commander, and his assistant, Mohammed Sarsour, 31, his assistant,and a bystander. The two Hamas leaders were on the motorcycle when it exploded, witnesses said. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)

[cut]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/08/31/britain.extremism/story.griffin.jpg = http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564626_hamza150.jpg

[seruriermarshal]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/08/31/britain.extremism/story.griffin.jpg = http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564626_hamza150.jpg

Who's he ?

[cut]

BNP they incite racial hatred just like hamza

[seruriermarshal]

BNP they incite racial hatred just like hamza

His name is ?

[cut]

Nick Griffin

[seruriermarshal]

Nick Griffin

Can you send more about his event ? thanks .

[Yard Ape]

Does the UK have a "conspiracy to murder" type law?
Or Anti-hate laws?

[cut]

http://www.bnp.org.uk

http://www.anl.org.uk/who_are.htm

[cut]

Does the UK have a "conspiracy to murder" type law?
Or Anti-hate laws?


yes, conspiracy to instigate ethnic violence, or something like that is often mentioned when speaking of Hamza

[seruriermarshal]

http://www.bnp.org.uk

http://www.anl.org.uk/who_are.htm


The first link is their homepage ?

Why they still live in UK ?

Second link can't access .

[cut]

They pretend to be reformed, they say they want to deal with the problems with assylum seekers more aggressively.

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.

This is tempting the votes of people like you who take a strong dislike to abu hamza and his friends.

In truth they are still nazis, but voters in poorer areas where they are gaining support because they are fed up with immigrants.

[seruriermarshal]

They pretend to be reformed, they say they want to deal with the problems with assylum seekers more aggressively.

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.

This is tempting the votes of people like you who take a strong dislike to abu hamza and his friends.

In truth they are still nazis, but voters in poorer areas where they are gaining support because they are fed up with immigrants.

Why nazis still live in UK ? We win WWII ?

[martinexsquaddie]

Hanzu is in jail
nick griffin is just like le pen
a nazi by another name fortunalty in the uk he can get a couple of local councilliors :roll:

[cut]

They pretend to be reformed, they say they want to deal with the problems with assylum seekers more aggressively.

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.

This is tempting the votes of people like you who take a strong dislike to abu hamza and his friends.

In truth they are still nazis, but voters in poorer areas where they are gaining support because they are fed up with immigrants.

Why nazis still live in UK ? We win WWII ?

:cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[mattnwnc03]

thats ok if they wanna kill non muslims cause i feel its okto kill muslims. bring it on baby!!!! :bash:

[Umm-Qasr]

thats ok if they wanna kill non muslims cause i feel its okto kill muslims. bring it on baby!!!! :bash:
Why do you degrade yourself if someone else does that? where's the logic ...

[Denat]

http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/*******_molt/3571353281.jpg
He is a serious problem :roll:
3 rounds 0.45 ACP - problem solved woot

[ShadowNeo]

Nick Griffin is just as much of a tosser as Hamza, and the BNP are just as disgusting as any Islamic Extremist group.

The BNP had their European Election programs on the TV this week, and I personally was completely disgusted by them. Firstly, what did they talk about Europe in them? Bugger all. All they had were "testimonies" from people about anti-white racism and some mocked up interview with a girl who had apparently been the victim of an "Asian Rape Gang". Completely one sided bull****.

They then went on about how you could have "Islamic Fundamentalism or Womens Rights", I mean, the party has no stance whatsoever on womens rights, and they just throw things in to make them look somehow legitemate, its utter bollocks.

What disgusted me the most though, was that at the end of the broadcast, Nick Griffin stood beside a Hurricane WW2 fighter, and said that the BNP were fighting to keep Britain's freedom again.

Slightly hypocritical since the BNP are basically Nazis.

[martinexsquaddie]

back in the good old days nick would be breaking rocks in jail :lol:

[Dijital_Majik]

He is a serious problem
3 rounds 0.45 ACP - problem solved

wow, how hard/tough are you mate?? Feel like a real man to shoot gun, yes??
(and btw, if it takes you 3 rounds with a .45, then you need some glasses my boy!)


thats ok if they wanna kill non muslims cause i feel its okto kill muslims. bring it on baby!!!!

if you were infamous, and in the public eye and made comments like that, do you think it would be apropriate? Such comments would make you just as bad as Abu Hamza.

Please think for even just a second before you post mate.

Have a good 'un :hug:

[oldsoak]

There is a problem in the UK moslem community where there is an unwillingness to denounce clerics even if one personally disagrees with what they are saying. This is partly due to the respect accorded to clerics and also due to the fact that these chaps can produce quotations or arguements from the Koran ( the ultimate authority ) to back themselves up. Bear in mind clerics are seen as being able to intepret and pass on the true meaning of the Koran in a way the beleiver is not able to do on his own authority. Think Christianity in the middle ages where the priest or the bishop was the only one who was able to pass on the meaning of ther Bible. Dispute what a particular firebrand says and its "What, are you argueing with the Koran ?" - as a devout muslim you are stuffed for arguement. ( again , similarity to Christianity in the middle ages where if a bishop said "this is so" is was so - no arguement from the faithful unless you fancied the title of heretic. ). Theres quite a few muslims who think Hamzas a bad egg, but they cant do much with him.

[Dijital_Majik]

Claiming that it is ok to kill anybody else simply because of their race, religion etc. is absolutly wrong.

Islam is definitely a religion of peace as anybody who has actually read the Quran knows, yet it is also realistic in that we cannot always turn the other cheek (for expamle when you are invaded unlawfully you must defend you land and family).


This is partly due to the respect accorded to clerics and also due to the fact that these chaps can produce quotations or arguements from the Koran ( the ultimate authority ) to back themselves up. Bear in mind clerics are seen as being able to intepret and pass on the true meaning of the Koran in a way the beleiver is not able to do on his own authority

Some radicals interpret/twist the meanings of verses intended to give permission to Muslims to protect themselves from harm, and these are usually the ones who come into the media spotlight (naturally), so please do not take the words of any man as the words of Allah, but make imformed decisions for yourself about after some objective reading (tabloids and CNN dont count) and study as many Muslims do.

The majority of Muslims are not stupid, and dont just follow somebody simply because he quotes the Quran (how many actually took up and followed Abu Hamza's supposed comments?), and if you are unsure about a law in Islam, it is your duty to to research until you are sure.

Please note that in Islam that anybody living in a non-Muslim country may not break the laws of the nation they are living, unless they are persecuted and not allowed to practice thier faith (i.e. not allowed to pray), and hence if what Abu Hamza says is true (can never trust the tabloids and media on qutations completely), then he is definitely at fault, and the whole muslim community feels this.


again , similarity to Christianity in the middle ages where if a bishop said "this is so" is was so - no arguement from the faithful unless you fancied the title of heretic

Wrongfully implying in a sly manner that the faith of Islam is backwards and in still in the middle ages (like you just have above) is a pristine example of how the majority of non Muslims in the West get wrong ideas about Islam. To most, small comments like this go unnoticed, but the effects can be quite dramtic.

Most of the time I generally dont believe there is malicious intent in such comments, but it just happens, with one thing leading to another, leading to Muslims being questioned. e.g women's rights in Islam are nothing like you read in the papers and certain propaganda sites, and women are actully protected very much so (compare rape figures in Muslim countries to anywhere else), and I bet you didn't know that in Islam your Mother, after Allah and the Prophet (peace be upon him), is the most important thing to you in life ahead of your father!!

Oldsoak, please dont feel i'm picking on you, i'm merely trying my best to help rid the bad stigma Islam has on boards like these, and hopefully enlighten to the best of my abilities the people here too.

Have a good 'un :hug:

[king_nothing100]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

[Dijital_Majik]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Why nazis still live in UK ? We win WWII ?
There are Nazi's in almost every country in Europe and the Americas.

[big80a2]

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:

so if your point's are true, why doesn't they work nowaday's in let me say Indonesia?

[big80a2]

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.



you mean Pim Fortuyn his Party?

well it didn't really effect the asylum system .... that is ne politics and i don't like them...

also Pim Fortuyn was shot not for his radical views on Islam but because his views on animal rights :|

[cut]

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.



you mean Pim Fortuyn his Party?

well it didn't really effect the asylum system .... that is ne politics and i don't like them...

also Pim Fortuyn was shot not for his radical views on Islam but because his views on animal rights :|

Yes I know but that is what the BNP said in their party political broadcasts

[Dijital_Majik]

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:

so if your point's are true, why doesn't they work nowaday's in let me say Indonesia?

I don't not know any details about your situation, and therefore it would be stupid and contradictory for me to make a comment.

Have a good 'un :hug:

[cut]

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:

so if your point's are true, why doesn't they work nowaday's in let me say Indonesia?

I don't not know any details about your situation, and therefore it would be stupid and contradictory for me to make a comment.

Have a good 'un :hug:

Well point is that muslim countries around the world today are the most unstable.

Many aren't even heard about like the Sudan, where arab muslims are effectively ethnically cleansing black muslims & christians.

Whatever tolerences muslim controlled countries had centuries ago, it is sadly not the case now.

[Dijital_Majik]

Well point is that muslim countries around the world today are the most unstable.

based on...??


Many aren't even heard about like the Sudan, where arab muslims are effectively ethnically cleansing black muslims & christians.

Cut, you got any links about the situation in Sudan? I would like to look into this. I reserve the right to make judgement until I'm fully aware of both sides of the situation.


Whatever tolerences muslim controlled countries had centuries ago, it is sadly not the case now.

be careful my friend, generalisation is a very powerful tool. I agree that not every Muslim is perfect, and infact far from it, but again, just because of a few bad eggs, don't think that all Muslim countries are the same.

have a good 'un :hug:

[cut]

you were generalising, I just repeated what you said...


Sudan

Who's fighting who? As the government and southern rebels sign a peace agreement, a new rebellion has broken out in the western region of Darfur. There, the government is accused of backing the Arab "Janjaweed" militia.

What's the fighting about? In the south, Christians and animists opposed plans to expand Islamic Sharia law to the areas where they lived. In Darfur, the rebels accused the Arab-dominated government of ignoring the region and now accuse the government and the Janjaweed of "ethnic cleansing" against black African residents.

How many have died? About 2 million in 20 years of fighting in the south. In Darfur, about 10,000 have died and 1 million fled their homes.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/this_world/one_day_of_war/img/203/10.jpg

The journey began in Johannesburg and ended in a remote village on the Chad/Sudan border.

The biggest obstacle was the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Despite their helpfulness and generosity, they could not be told of our plans.

Our character, Mousa, is a soldier with the Sudanese Liberation Army (SLA). He was eager to be part of the film.

Mousa and the SLA are fighting against government troops and they hope to draw attention to the neglected Darfur region where authorities have been accused of backing a scorched-earth campaign and committing crimes against humanity.

The terrain is hostile desert. Nine of Mousa's brothers have been killed already, he says.

As for any Muslim, the day of 22 March started with prayer, followed by the preparation of the first meal of the day.

He then loaded up his camels and joined the patrol in Darfur.

Border hopping

The first part of the day was spent training as they set up mock attacks and target training.

After a little rest, the soldiers started their proper patrol and marched to a village 8-10kms away, which had been attacked and destroyed by government soldiers.

It was becoming risky to remain in Sudan, and having me in the unit could have endangered them further


It was rumoured that some militia were still around the village, but Mousa's patrol found no-one there, so they turned back and headed towards the border.

Stops were only made for food and prayer. Lunch was provided by a slaughtered sheep.

As the evening set in, the enemy were approaching the SLA patrol and the commander ordered them back to Chad.

It was becoming risky to remain in Sudan, and having me in the unit could have endangered them further.



another example.... (there are plenty)




Thailand ready for talks on South

Thailand has said it is ready to hold talks with the leader of an Islamic group blamed for recent violence in the country's mainly Muslim south.
Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said talks could take place with Wan Abdul Kadir Che Man, head of Bersatu, an umbrella organisation.

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Wan Kadir denied Bersatu was involved in recent violence which left more than 100 dead.

He also said Bersatu no longer saw a separate state as its ultimate goal.

Instead, he said his group was focusing on gaining political influence within Thailand.

Prime Minister Thaksin said on Monday that he had assigned an army commander in the south to talk to Mr Wan Kadir, who currently lives in exile in neighbouring Malaysia.

"It brings no harm to talk," Mr Thaksin told reporters. "At least we could get some pieces to complete our jigsaw."

Defence Minister Chetta Thanajaro said the government had already made "official-level contact" with Mr Wan Kadir - but he added that there was still no time-frame for discussions.

Mr Chetta said both sides would benefit from the talks, with the government learning more about the feelings and motivations of separatist groups in the south, the only Muslim-majority area in predominantly Buddhist Thailand.

Bersatu is an umbrella organisation for a number of separatist groups, such as the Pattani United Liberation Front (Pulo), Barisan Revolusi Nasional (BRN) and Gerakan Mujahideen Islam Pattani. The world Bersatu means "united" in Malay.

Separatism dream

Mr Wan Kadir said over the weekend that he was willing to give up Bersatu's demand for a separate homeland in southern Thailand.

Analysts said that Mr Wan Kadir's apparent willingness to talk about autonomy rather than a separate state could be a major step forward in relations between the south and the Bangkok government.


"The objective of our struggle was separatism," he told the BBC's Thai service. "But in the world of globalisation, we want the status of people who live in this land and want to have a say in the administration."
Mr Wan Kadir added that Bersatu still wanted its people to be involved in the administration of the southern provinces.

While the Thai government appears keen to hold discussions with Bersatu, it still blames the group for a series of attacks since the beginning of this year.

Mr Chetta told a Bangkok-based radio station that Bersatu was the "mastermind" behind the upsurge in violence in the south.

"Every separatist movement is under this organisation," he said.

But Mr Wan Kadir denied Bersatu was responsible for the attacks on 28 April - when 108 suspected insurgents were killed after launching a series of co-ordinated assaults on police posts and checkpoints.

But he admitted he had come under pressure to retaliate for the attacks from other Muslim groups in the region.

[big80a2]

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:

so if your point's are true, why doesn't they work nowaday's in let me say Indonesia?

I don't not know any details about your situation, and therefore it would be stupid and contradictory for me to make a comment.

Have a good 'un :hug:

wel could you give us prove of the nice treathment of people in Spain and Jeruzalem by muslims?
because didn't they took this lands by sword? I'm not saying christians are that good they have a fulty history, but I think you are showing a picture that is not the full truth.

So if muslims controlled spain there would not be muslims that would have killed infedels?

[big80a2]

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.



you mean Pim Fortuyn his Party?

well it didn't really effect the asylum system .... that is ne politics and i don't like them...

also Pim Fortuyn was shot not for his radical views on Islam but because his views on animal rights :|

Yes I know but that is what the BNP said in their party political broadcasts

well another twisted political point ;)

[cut]

Also in the netherlands the extreme right wing won a lot of votes but very little power but the effect was complete shutdown of the asylum system.



you mean Pim Fortuyn his Party?

well it didn't really effect the asylum system .... that is ne politics and i don't like them...

also Pim Fortuyn was shot not for his radical views on Islam but because his views on animal rights :|

Yes I know but that is what the BNP said in their party political broadcasts

well another twisted political point ;)

exactly..

[Moledet]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

[cut]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

Can women can't pray with men at the western wall? Women are not allowed to be priests in the Catholic church. etc.. few religions treat men and women equally


therefore we should get rid of all of them p-)

[big80a2]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts

[cut]

problem is there are still some non-western muslims in western countries, but still a good point

[Dijital_Majik]

Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old?

I think you will find that this is cultural, rather than religous.


Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?

where in the Quran or Hadith does it say women must stay at home?


Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone?

For their own protection, would you want your woman going out on her own unprotected and be open bait to rapists?


Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?

the rule applies to men as well.

My suggestion is that you read some REAL books about women in Islam (there are plenty).


And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

Every Muslim does this? You know for sure do you?

have a good 'un :hug: [/quote]

[Dijital_Majik]

Ah yes, Western Muslims...

why does the West have to impart/force beliefs on everyone else?

Is it not enough for a Muslim to practise his faith, as long as he is not breaking the law of the country he is in?

have a good 'un :hug:

[big80a2]

And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

Every Muslim does this? You know for sure do you?

have a good 'un :hug: [/quote]

well from 9 of the 10 muslims of all muslims I know there is a smal to big lie flowing around. That just start with insults. But sometimes it's more fabricated like jews taking over the world.

[Moledet]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts
British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

[big80a2]

Ah yes, Western Muslims...

why does the West have to impart/force beliefs on everyone else?

Is it not enough for a Muslim to practise his faith, as long as he is not breaking the law of the country he is in?

have a good 'un :hug:

well.... I know muslims in the west and muslims outside the west. And they do have diffrent views of islam. So there should be a difrence, doesn't it?

and the name west sute them well.

[cut]

many israelis are the same about muslims, palestinians are not a good example of what muslims in general are like.

[Moledet]

I think you will find that this is cultural, rather than religous.

It come from religion and it's being made only by Muslims.





For their own protection, would you want your woman going out on her own unprotected and be open bait to rapists?

LOL, I don't have a wife but my mom goes wherever she want to go to, she doesn't have to ask my dad for permision.
That's the most lame excuse I've ever heard.



the rule applies to men as well.

Maybe it is, but when men does it nothing happens to them. They denie any responsibility and because men are more respected in the Muslim culture the people blame the woman for cheating and she is being killed.
They also rape women and denie responsibility and then again the society blame the women.



My suggestion is that you read some REAL books about women in Islam (there are plenty).

I have no interest in reading a book that was written by a man that suppose to describe women life.




Every Muslim does this? You know for sure do you?

have a good 'un :hug:
Not every Muslim, only the Arabian and Muslim countries:
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/adl/adl_12_03.htm

[big80a2]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts
British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

well I know about the wrong doings,
but I want to know why a lot of muslims semms to have double standarts,
and I want to know the definition of "normal" muslim, What difines a "normal" muslim. I know a lot of muslims and the thing that bothers me is that when you talk to one he/she is verry moderate in view but when you see the same person in a group they have this strang wrong radical views... they just dinounced to you in eye to eye conversation....

[Dijital_Majik]

many israelis are the same about muslims, palestinians are not a good example of what muslims in general are like.

Literally took the words out of my mouth!


So there should be a difrence, doesn't it?

not really, Islam is the same for everyone. Depends on the individual as well, their level of faith, knowledge etc..


British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

because they are Arabic doesnt make them true. Being media makes it worse, and like I said before, read a copy of the Quran with an open heart for the truth. Who knows, inshallah you may even convert to Islam! :D

Have a good 'un :hug:

[Moledet]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts
British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

well I know about the wrong doings,
but I want to know why a lot of muslims semms to have double standarts,
and I want to know the definition of "normal" muslim, What difines a "normal" muslim. I know a lot of muslims and the thing that bothers me is that when you talk to one he/she is verry moderate in view but when you see the same person in a group they have this strang wrong radical views... they just dinounced to you in eye to eye conversation....
It happens a lot of times, you won't see an Arabian leader telling the western media what he tell to his own people, they just put a fake ID to please you and to make you support them.

[cut]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts
British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

lol is that why you hate us Britis so much?

Well these newspapers are not british they are based in britain because we insist on freedom of the press, unlike your beloved government which enjoys authoritarian-style censorship over Israeli media

[big80a2]

Well these newspapers are not british they are based in britain because we insist on freedom of the press,

I should call it more like: media prevertarisation...
the media company's make you hear what they wan't you to hear

[Dijital_Majik]

Moledet, you seem to make very many generic comments such as the man will deny adultery and get away with it. Based on what? one or two cases? will this happen every time?

same with the arab leader to his people and the western media.

I don't claim to know everything, and far from it, but I at least try to be objective and fair where I can and don't come out with comments like All Israelis hate Muslims because I know its not true. Please my friend, dont generalise comments!

Make real points all you like and you wont find me commenting about objectivity and generalisation, for I realise that I am not always 100% right.

Have a good 'un :hug:

I gotta sign out for today...

Assalaam Alaikum[/i]

[cut]

Well these newspapers are not british they are based in britain because we insist on freedom of the press,

I should call it more like: media prevertarisation...
the media company's make you hear what they wan't you to hear

yes but I'd rather chose from and array of views in the media rather then one governement view or not hear about certain views because they criticise the government. It's part and parcel of democracy.

[big80a2]

So there should be a difrence, doesn't it?

not really, Islam is the same for everyone. Depends on the individual as well, their level of faith, knowledge etc..



Have a good 'un :hug:

well for you it is the islam of your view,
while other exstremist muslims think they have the right view.
you have your true islam somebody else has his.
like in christianity the one has his true christianity the other his.

anyway, do muslims dispite diffrences see all other muslims views (not acts) as beliefers in Allah?
just something I wonderd,

[BlackRain]

Muslim cleric in England says killing non-Moslems is OK

The sad part of all of this is that the British citizens are subsidizing these "clerics" by giving them welfare.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/_1564626_hamza150.jpeg
Abu Hamza says Aye-Aye Captain


The radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri (aka Captain Hook) who was deported to the USA from London was living on welfare receiving £1,000 a week.

and

Abu Qatada, a leading al-Qaeda recruiter, became an Islamist bigshot while British taxpayers were giving aid. It was only when he was discovered to have £150,000 in his bank account that the Department for Work and Pensions turned off the spigot.


Interesting reads: http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5570 and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/02/24/do2402.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/02/24/ixopinion.html

[big80a2]

Well these newspapers are not british they are based in britain because we insist on freedom of the press,

I should call it more like: media prevertarisation...
the media company's make you hear what they wan't you to hear

yes but I'd rather chose from and array of views in the media rather then one governement view or not hear about certain views because they criticise the government. It's part and parcel of democracy.

well what I experianced from news in Israel is not the picture you discrive,
when comparing Haeretz and Jeruzalem Post the diffrences are there and there is a lot of chritism on goverments all the time, you really get tierd of it ;)

I't is true that a national newspaper would be more into the story of it's own country than a outstander newpaper does.
Like: Jpost post often story's about the background of a killed soldier while other outside newspapers only say a soldier died or something like that. But thats the same with Britain, the Netherlands, etc.
IMO this ads to the report

[cut]

Muslim cleric in England says killing non-Moslems is OK

The sad part of all of this is that the British citizens are subsidizing these "clerics" by giving them welfare.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/_1564626_hamza150.jpeg
Abu Hamza says Aye-Aye Captain


The radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri (aka Captain Hook) who was deported to the USA from London was living on welfare receiving £1,000 a week.


Interesting read: http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5570

what a surprise frontpage... :roll: would you like me to find an anti-conservative article about how terrorism is the result of right wing politics from so socialist magazine?

[Moledet]

What I find funny is that Islam is said to respect the views of other peoples religions? Also the fact they treat most of their women like **** but no-where in the Koran does it say to, lol.

Have you read the Quran, or just read some bs propagandi sites??

have you witnessed in person a women being treated like ****, not what you see on tv and read about?

If you have, is the reason behind this Islam, or merely cultural customs (the two are very, very different)?

If you read true history, you will see that in places such as Spain and Jerusalem under Islamic rule was the most fair to other faiths; Jews and Christians lived in peace with Muslims, and were not persecuted at all. Only when Islamic rule fell in Spain did the Jews get booted out by Isabella and Ferdinand! During the Crusades, the Christian crusaders were the ones who came into Jerusalem and murdered civilians of all religions (including Christians).

like I said before, make informed decisions!

Have a good 'un :hug:
Why do you cut your children (females) clitoris when they are six or five years old? Why men can take few women to be his wives while women can't? Why women has to stay at home and make babies like bunnies?
Why women can't get divorce while men can? Why women need to ask their husband for a permision to go to travel in other countries or to travel alone? Why women that cheat on their husbands are allowed to be killed?
I suggest you to read some books of muslim women (even though there are not many books of muslim women), my first suggestion is Nawal Al Saadawi book.

If Islam is so nice towards other religions then why did the Muslim countries kicked out 800,000 Jews? And why did they make pogroms to the Jews? And why do they lie to their own people and they teach them false things about Jews?

well I tink these things are not about all muslims...
I think we should focus more on average muslim, altrough I would call that a western muslim.

another question:
Should we when talking about muslims split them in "western muslims" and "non western muslims"
But when I asked this question another pops up in my mind that say's where is the border... what defines a western muslim?

just a couple of thoughts
British newspapers in Arabic:
Alquds al Arabi (Jerusalem the arabian):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133mtr.jpg
Alshark Al Awsat (The Middle East):
http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/as2_04/img/133t.jpg

lol is that why you hate us Britis so much?

Well these newspapers are not british they are based in britain because we insist on freedom of the press, unlike your beloved government which enjoys authoritarian-style censorship over Israeli media
I don't hate you, it was just an example to "western" muslims.
And in Israel the press has full freedom (Arabian and Jewish).

[cut]

these are not western muslims they are palestinians who live in britain so that they can express their views. But don't worry the telegraph IS a British paper and always sides with Israel, and not by mistake, it is part of the same group as the Jerusalem post.

Hamza is an example of a muslim living in the west but isn't a western muslim. Those newspapers are simply palestinian

[BlackRain]

Cut: That is not my implication. I added a left wing reference as well. I am not blaiming anyone.

My point is that the shoe bomber and other Al-Quida members are gaming the system and the system is either unable or bloated with bureaucratic clock-watchers to do anything about it.

[cut]

Cut: That is not my implication. I added a left wing reference as well. I am not blaiming anyone.

My point is that the shoe bomber and other Al-Quida members are gaming the system and the system is either unable or bloated with bureaucratic clock-watchers to do anything about it.

yes but that's only because of or insinstance on giving people a fair trial.

[ibstolidude]

Ah yes, Western Muslims...

why does the West have to impart/force beliefs on everyone else?
You have now degraded any cred you may have had.
For a guy who begs for cessation of generalizations to post this and hope to retain any credibility is ridiculous.

of course you also posted:

Make real points all you like and you wont find me commenting about objectivity and generalisation, for I realise that I am not always 100% right.
How unfortunate that rather than trying to offer an intelligent and credable alternative opinion to many on the forum, you choose to use generalizations to counter generalization.

I also love how Islam is a religion of peace, is not the same claim able to made for Judism, Christianity, Buddhism, (insert 99% of religion here), but
Some radicals interpret/twist the meanings of verses intended to give permission to *insert religion of choice*.

[big80a2]

these are not western muslims they are palestinians who live in britain so that they can express their views. But don't worry the telegraph IS a British paper and always sides with Israel, and not by mistake, it is part of the same group as the Jerusalem post.

Hamza is an example of a muslim living in the west but isn't a western muslim. Those newspapers are simply palestinian

well they don't have free press in pali terrotories....
but I think there view's are pro pali ain't they?
I'm not an all time faforite of free pers and controlled pers also don't work so we got to do with whatever we like...

[cbreedon]

Abu Hamza will be in a US jail soon.....He'll never see the light of day again.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/27/hamza.indict/index.html

[Dijital_Majik]

Dijital_Majik wrote:
Ah yes, Western Muslims...

why does the West have to impart/force beliefs on everyone else?

You have now degraded any cred you may have had.
For a guy who begs for cessation of generalizations to post this and hope to retain any credibility is ridiculous.

Fair enough, you have a very valid point, that was a generalisation, I also posted
for I realise that I am not always 100% right.


How unfortunate that rather than trying to offer an intelligent and credable alternative opinion to many on the forum, you choose to use generalizations to counter generalization

now you are generalising all of what i say, are you not? perhaps I have generalised (possibly more times than you have pointed out) but at least I try my best not to (i'm not perfect, no one is), and definitely have not over the last few pages done so as much as you make out to be the case, nor have I generalised more that those countering my arguements.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake!


I also love how Islam is a religion of peace, is not the same claim able to made for Judism, Christianity, Buddhism, (insert 99% of religion here), but Quote:
Some radicals interpret/twist the meanings of verses intended to give permission to
*insert religion of choice*.

absolutely, I cant think of one singles religion that doesnt preach peace, but then again, i'm not the one going around saying things about other religions.

Have a good 'un :hug:

[ibstolidude]

How unfortunate that rather than trying to offer an intelligent and credable alternative opinion to many on the forum, you choose to use generalizations to counter generalization

now you are generalising all of what i say, are you not?


Actually, no, a generalization would be a statement that has a general application; I, on the other hand was making a very specific point you chose to use generalizations - now you have admitted to doing so, and unless you were forced and did not "choose" then my specific statement was correct. You did us generalizations to counter generalizations. My comments were pretty specific, relatesd to a distinct and definite event.

However, atleast you were willing to admit you had done so, many refuse to do so. I don't comment on many others who make sweeping generalizations, biased and/or often racist comments as I have long since stopped reading their posts.

[ZeroPositive]

He made outrageous comments about the UK, I can't believe he was getting so much off the system and slagging it off big time.

Don't bite the hand that feeds.

[oldsoak]

Claiming that it is ok to kill anybody else simply because of their race, religion etc. is absolutly wrong.

Islam is definitely a religion of peace as anybody who has actually read the Quran knows, yet it is also realistic in that we cannot always turn the other cheek (for expamle when you are invaded unlawfully you must defend you land and family).


This is partly due to the respect accorded to clerics and also due to the fact that these chaps can produce quotations or arguements from the Koran ( the ultimate authority ) to back themselves up. Bear in mind clerics are seen as being able to intepret and pass on the true meaning of the Koran in a way the beleiver is not able to do on his own authority

Some radicals interpret/twist the meanings of verses intended to give permission to Muslims to protect themselves from harm, and these are usually the ones who come into the media spotlight (naturally), so please do not take the words of any man as the words of Allah, but make imformed decisions for yourself about after some objective reading (tabloids and CNN dont count) and study as many Muslims do.

The majority of Muslims are Islam is not simply a religion, it is core to how a lot of people lead their lives and it is what keeps a lot of people together. not stupid, and dont just follow somebody simply because he quotes the Quran (how many actually took up and followed Abu Hamza's supposed comments?), and if you are unsure about a law in Islam, it is your duty to to research until you are sure.

Please note that in Islam that anybody living in a non-Muslim country may not break the laws of the nation they are living, unless they are persecuted and not allowed to practice thier faith (i.e. not allowed to pray), and hence if what Abu Hamza says is true (can never trust the tabloids and media on qutations completely), then he is definitely at fault, and the whole muslim community feels this.


again , similarity to ChIslam is not simply a religion, it is core to how a lot of people lead their lives and it is what keeps a lot of people together. ristianity in the middle ages where if a bishop said "this is so" is was so - no arguement from the faithful unless you fancied the title of heretic

Wrongfully implying in a sly manner that the faith of Islam is backwards and in still in the middle ages (like you just have above) is a pristine example of how the majority of non Muslims in the West get wrong ideas about Islam. To most, small comments like this go unnoticed, but the effects can be quite dramtic.

Most of the time I generally dont believe there is malicious intent in such comments, but it just happens, with one thing leading to another, leading to Muslims being questioned. e.g women's rights in Islam are nothing like you read in the papers and certain propaganda sites, and women are actully protected very much so (compare rape figures in Muslim countries to anywhere else), and I bet you didn't know that in Islam your Mother, after Allah and the Prophet (peace Islam is not simply a religion, it is core to how a lot of people lead their lives and it is what keeps a lot of people together. be upon him), is the most important thing to you in life ahead of your father!!

Oldsoak, please dont feel i'm picking on you, i'm merely trying my best to help rid the bad stigma Islam has on boards like these, and hopefully enlighten to the best of my abilities the people here too.

Have a good 'un :hug:

Think you might have picked up the wrong end of the stick chum . I was born in a muslim country and thats where not a few of friends are from, so I do have a feel for the quandary that these guys find themselves in. Culturally and religiously they dont feel they can tell a firebrand to get stuffed because they do not consider themselves at that perosns level. No one is trying to slyly imply anything about the evolutionary staus of Islam - westeners find hard to comprehend a clerics authority simply because religion does not occupy the same status here as it did years ago and he/she has to be reminded of history. Tell a westener now that the pope has declared Jews persona non grata and he'll most likely burst out laughing and take the piss - but there was a time when it was deadly serious matter amongst Christians despite the love and charity etc that Christianity teaches. A lot of people suffered as a result. ( Its good to remember that Christians have encouraged into a lot of un-Christian behaviour by their religious leaders because it makes people determined not to repeat the mistake )- I agree that what the Qu'ran says and a particular cleric teaches are not necessarily the same thing - Chriistians have the same problem and we have our share of bigots as well btw, the problem lies not in Islam, I wholeheartedly agree, but what is taught in its name. Someone like Hamza is charismatic - not least because he can claim that he put his life on the line for fellow muslims in Afghanistan which gives him a pretty cast iron credibility, plus he's a cleric and he is a "strong " figure. He appeals to a lot of people. Few are going to be able to engage him in a war of words because of the street cred, but it has to be done for the sake of muslims that wish to show that the wests negative and often bigoted view of Islam is not true. :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

OK guys..........let's get a few facts right here.

Abu Hamza was a British citizen long before he became a Muslim radical and joined any terrorist movement. He worked in London as a night-club bouncer of all things, married a British woman (result Uk citizenship), and was a hard drinker and womanizer. Hamza was thus entitled to British benefit rights etc. - though not by being a Muslim cleric.

Hamza disappeared from the UK and claims to have fought in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen and received his injuries there - although the injuries were received in Afg. informed sources say it was from dismantling land-mines etc., to re-claim the explosives.

When Hamza re-appeared in the UK, it was as a self-styled Muslim radical, and it was thus he and his gang took-over the north-London mosque he has considered his base for the last few years. This was against the will of many of the Mosque's elders according to respectible press reports.

Fortunately for all of us, Abu Hamza is now in a British High-security prison awaiting extradition to the US - that is assuming that our esteemed (not) leader Tony doesn't loose his balls and let him go - and hopefully once he arrives in the US he will loose his liberty on a permanent basis.

[oldsoak]

OK guys..........let's get a few facts right here.

Abu Hamza was a British citizen long before he became a Muslim radical and joined any terrorist movement. He worked in London as a night-club bouncer of all things, married a British woman (result Uk citizenship), and was a hard drinker and womanizer. Hamza was thus entitled to British benefit rights etc. - though not by being a Muslim cleric.

Hamza disappeared from the UK and claims to have fought in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen and received his injuries there - although the injuries were received in Afg. informed sources say it was from dismantling land-mines etc., to re-claim the explosives.

When Hamza re-appeared in the UK, it was as a self-styled Muslim radical, and it was thus he and his gang took-over the north-London mosque he has considered his base for the last few years. This was against the will of many of the Mosque's elders according to respectible press reports.

Fortunately for all of us, Abu Hamza is now in a British High-security prison awaiting extradition to the US - that is assuming that our esteemed (not) leader Tony doesn't loose his balls and let him go - and hopefully once he arrives in the US he will loose his liberty on a permanent basis.

Well, well, well - that I didnt know.
not happy with TB having any influence over the extradition process - too much power and that sort of thing.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Oldsoak et al

I'm with you guys all the way on this one - the sooner Captain Hook is behind bars long-term, the happier I will be. I felt however, that I needed to set the record straight on how Abu Hamza was entitled to benefits etc. in the UK.