D-Day? France preferred us to the US even then, says German

[seruriermarshal]

D-Day? France preferred us to the US even then, says German veteran

By Tony Paterson,Omaha Beach Normandy
(Filed: 30/05/2004)


Franz Gockel sits on the grassed-over remains of his former machine-gun nest above Omaha beach, and quietly weeps as he looks out across a broad stretch of sand towards the English Channel.

Sixty years ago this week, he was a raw 18-year-old private in the German infantry, about to suffer the full onslaught of the D-Day invasion. Of his 25 comrades who manned the gun emplacement WN62 near Coleville-sur-Mer, 18 were killed. The experience marked him for life.

"Whenever I return here I am overcome with emotion," he said. "I know that the Germans were on the wrong side but I feel that I owe it to my fallen comrades to revisit this place and remember that we all suffered terribly as well."

Mr Gockel is troubled by more, however. "D-Day is remembered almost exclusively from the Allied point of view," he said. "We Germans have been depicted merely as the occupiers of France. In fact many French people became our friends.

"During D-Day there were many French who were angry about the destruction of their towns and cities by American bombers." As a result, he said, the French were more hostile to the Americans than to the Germans who were, ostensibly, their enemies.

In the days after the invasion, he met a Frenchman in the badly bombed town of Vire who pulled a six-inch dagger from his pocket. "I said, 'I hope you're not going to use that on me.' He replied, 'No, I'm saving it up for the Americans, look what they've done to our town.' The whole place was in ruins," he said.

He recalled one French woman boasting that she would marry a German soldier. "She said, 'After the war I will be Frau Koch, and I'm proud about that,"' he said.

On his first return visit to Coleville-sur-Mer with his wife Hedwig in 1958, a local farmer greeted him warmly and cracked open a bottle of champagne.

Next Sunday, Mr Gockel will be back again, among German D-Day survivors who will meet Gerhard Schroder at a formal ceremony in Caen - the first time a German chancellor will have joined British, French and American leaders to commemorate the invasion.

Mr Gockel's memories of June 6, 1944 are strong. It began at 1am as he was ordered from his bunk into his machine-gun nest. Only months beforehand, the entire emplacement had been condemned as inadequate by visiting Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. To the west Mr Gockel saw flares and heard gunfire as American paratroops began the descent which was to launch the attack.

When dawn broke, he and his comrades were aghast to see the sea before them black with ships and landing craft. "It appeared that there were more ships than there were German soldiers to fight them.

We realised that we had no hope of repelling the attack. It was to be just a battle for survival," he said. The assault on Omaha beach began in earnest soon afterwards. For four hours Mr Gockel's emplacement was pounded with artillery shells.

"As the shells came in I hid under the big wooden platform on which my machine-gun was mounted. The only thing I could do was pray," he said.

When the shelling stopped, Mr Gockel looked over his parapet to see hundreds of American troops pouring out of landing craft 300 yards away. "I got up and started firing. My machine gun was a big water-cooled Polish contraption.

There was too much going on to be afraid. I watched men falling into the water. Then there was a massive splitting noise and the gun stopped firing. It was shot to pieces, but mercifully I was unharmed," he said.

About 18 hours after the invasion began, Mr Gockel crawled out of his emplacement to find food for himself and his fellow soldiers. As he made for a trench he felt a violent blow to his left hand. "When I looked, it was covered in blood and three of my fingers were dangling from their tendons. But for me it was a million dollar shot - I could leave the battlefield," he said.

Together with other far more seriously wounded Germans Mr Gockel commandeered a horse and cart and made for nearby Bayeux, where his wounds were patched up. He was sent back to Germany to recover, but soon returned to the front. His own war ended in November 1944 when he was captured by advancing US troops.

About 21,000 of his comrades were killed during the D-Day invasion - yet, apart from ruined remains of bunkers and gun emplacements, there was nothing to commemorate the German dead on Omaha beach last week.

Earlier in the war, Mr Gockel had worked as a roofer in his family's business. Much of his time was spent repairing the damage caused to Ruhr towns by British and American bombing raids. "I saw enough dead bodies before my time in Normandy. When D-Day finally came I felt as if I had to defend my homeland in retribution for these attacks," he said.

The Gockels still return to Normandy, often renting a cottage owned by Yvonne Lemaire, 78, a farmer's daughter who sold the Germans milk during the occupation.

"At least around Omaha beach, the Germans treated us correctly," Mrs Lemaire said last week. "They were not all barbarians and not all the French were in the Resistance. Franz and Hedwig are our friends now."


From (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/30/ndday130.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/30/ixhome.html)

[Kitsune]

Funny that one can read stuff like this only in American or English newspapers, never in German ones...

[scm77]

It sure doesn't look that way when you see video of their liberation.

[Pook2]

Not surprising. I admire George Washington. I hope we never deal with Europe again.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

F*ck the French

[cut]

seruriermarshall is turning into one of those serial political spammers.

only for a few other people to lap this up. And you can't get more biased then the telegraph.

Thoroughly pointless thread. Especially from someone so ashamed of his own country that he won't admit where he's from.

[seruriermarshal]

seruriermarshall is turning into one of those serial political spammers.

only for a few other people to lap this up. And you can't get more biased then the telegraph.

Thoroughly pointless thread. Especially from someone so ashamed of his own country that he won't admit where he's from.

Just some news , perhaps you haven't chance watch them .

[cut]

news? this is bollocks printed in a newspaper you know nothing about.

[seruriermarshal]

news? this is bollocks printed in a newspaper you know nothing about.

And it's freedom , because Micheal Moore can say :"911 IS Bush lie", so I can't send few news to forums ?

:roll:

[cut]

michael more is not french or german he's american

so why are you having a go at the french, is it part of the national agenda of the country you are from? What have they done to you?

This article is bull****, the french were repeatedly at war with the Germans for centuries. European unity against the US is a recent thing before the first world war the US was an irrelevance and afterwards the French and the US became firm allies.

[seruriermarshal]

michael more is not french or german he's american

so why are you having a go at the french, is it part of the national agenda of the country you are from? What have they done to you?

This article is bull****, the french were repeatedly at war with the Germans for centuries. European unity against the US is a recent thing before the first world war the US was an irrelevance and afterwards the French and the US became firm allies.

So I don't know why French hate U.S. in this news ?

[cut]

Probably because this "news" is wrong

[ShotOver]

Yeah, this is a load of crap.
And where are you from seruriermarshal, you type using a english translator, im guessing your french?

[seruriermarshal]

Probably because this "news" is wrong

But have more example in this news ?

[SeanAshi]

During D-Day there were many French who were angry about the destruction of their towns and cities by American bombers." As a result, he said, the French were more hostile to the Americans than to the Germans who were, ostensibly, their enemies.

In the days after the invasion, he met a Frenchman in the badly bombed town of Vire who pulled a six-inch dagger from his pocket. "I said, 'I hope you're not going to use that on me.' He replied, 'No, I'm saving it up for the Americans, look what they've done to our town.' The whole place was in ruins," he said.
Look what they've done to our town? wtf Look what the Germans did to Europe and N. Africa :cantbeli: France should have never allowed Germany to re-arm in the first place.

[Midtown]

UGH...ill be there for 5 days this summer with my ******, should be intresting with all of my california beach shirts.

[Kilgor]

I have a dutch friend that make very bad comments on the americans in ww2.

"americans got the russians to do all the fighting"
"americans only landed in europe when it was too late"
"americans should have started d-day much sooner"

Sometimes I wonder if the liberation of europe was worth it. Maybe it would have been better if stalin's forces chased the germans out of the corners of europe and stayed there. With europe so anti american at times, I wonder what it would have been like with no second front and the soviet occupation of the entire continent.

Maybe just for one day, Europe could drop the anti bush/ anti american attitude and realise they would either be talking german or russian without their help.

[Midtown]

AMEN

[n.ignomo]

Kilgor, if you really want a reason which isn't freedom, let's take economical ones (read again you history, bad situation before, great after..)

[martinexsquaddie]

I think you confuse being anti america with being anti george
I've not met anyone in the UK who is a big fan of bush. best I heard "they could have done worse :roll: "
George may'd it quite clear america could go it alone and now worrys what people think of him :roll:.
Personally georges administration wants unconditional support from its allies and offers nothing in exchange the mans a pigmy and has managed single handedly to sour international relations across a wide area
cheers for that :lol:

[mack pl]

Maybe it would have been better if stalin's forces chased the germans out of the corners of europe and stayed there.


You are jokking, yeah?Stalin wasnt better than Hitler dude.Comunism wasnt better than nazism.

Have a nice day.

regards

[Kilgor]

I know stalin wasnt better than hitler... he was far worse in some ways.

Im just saying, imagine what the whole of europe would have been like if it was like east germany.

[mack pl]

I know stalin wasnt better than hitler... he was far worse in some ways.

Im just saying, imagine what the whole of europe would have been like if it was like east germany.

East Germany wasnt so bad-Trabant,Wardburg etc. ;) ...only this fukin STASI everywhere ;) :lol:

regards :)

[kinghk]

Maybe just for one day, Europe could drop the anti bush/ anti american attitude and realise they would either be talking german or russian without their help.

Where does this "without our help you would have been talking german or russian now"
bull**** come from?

Although the germans and russians did made their language the first foreign language in schools, there is no proof whatsoever that they wanted to replace the native tounge with russian/german. Look at all the poles in this forum. They speak polish don't they?

If germany still ruled Norway, I guess I would have german as my first foreign language instead of English, and I don't see a huge problem with that. Although the german grammatic is a pain in the ass, it's quite easy to learn when you already speak a germanic language.

And yankies, remember that your beloved enemy france once gave you your independence. If it wasn't for the froggies, you would been a part of UK today.

If the europeans didn't discover America, USA would not exist as it is today.
Where do you think all the white people in America come from ?

[kinghk]

Maybe it would have been better if stalin's forces chased the germans out of the corners of europe and stayed there.


You are jokking, yeah?Stalin wasnt better than Hitler dude.Comunism wasnt better than nazism.


If I had to choose between these to evils, I'd pick Hitler. Although Hitler sent people to consentration camps, he "only" sent jews and resistance people, not just huge amounts of random people like Stalin did.

[Fiber]

If the europeans didn't discover America, USA would not exist as it is today.
Where do you think all the white people in America come from ?

It's funny how everything is somehow connected.

Americans and Europeans will always be family. It's just that Americans are the in-laws :lol:

[moughoun]

Maybe just for one day, Europe could drop the anti bush/ anti american attitude and realise they would either be talking german or russian without their help.

When did George Bush become synonomous with the US??, oh well thank you George for storming all the beach's on D-day woot woot

[big_les]

UGH...ill be there for 5 days this summer with my ******, should be intresting with all of my california beach shirts.

With your ******??? Do you normally leave your genitals at home then?

[Valuk]

Maybe just for one day, Europe could drop the anti bush/ anti american attitude and realise they would either be talking german or russian without their help.

Where does this "without our help you would have been talking german or russian now"
bull**** come from?

Although the germans and russians did made their language the first foreign language in schools, there is no proof whatsoever that they wanted to replace the native tounge with russian/german. Look at all the poles in this forum. They speak polish don't they?

If germany still ruled Norway, I guess I would have german as my first foreign language instead of English, and I don't see a huge problem with that. Although the german grammatic is a pain in the ass, it's quite easy to learn when you already speak a germanic language.

And yankies, remember that your beloved enemy france once gave you your independence. If it wasn't for the froggies, you would been a part of UK today.

If the europeans didn't discover America, USA would not exist as it is today.
Where do you think all the white people in America come from ?

Hmm, you are wrong here! :roll: Hitler actually did try to erase some nations. One of them was my nation, I'm Slowene. We are situated east of Italy and south of Austria. Cause our countryside, dressing, music and food is quite simmilar to Bavarian or Austrian, Hitler wanted my country to be a part of German soil (»wieder Deutsch«). Therefore he had plans to move some of our inhabitans to the Balkans, some ended up in a »Konzentrationslager« and many had their names changed into German, like for example Puh for Puch or Mah for Mach. The Mach number, denoting the speed ratio was invented by a Slovenian named Mah, but as we were then a part of Austrian-Hungarian empire he is now known as MACH. The same goes for the jeep manufacturer PUCH. Many Slovenians also ended up in SS or Wehrmacht, those of German origine were naturally volunteers, while others were forced to join. A lot more naturally ended up in our Partisan battalions, brigades and divisions. In case the Germans won the war, I am completely sure, we in Slovenia would all be speaking German by now! That wouldn't happen to French or British, but for us it would, 100%! We lost about 10% of our population in the ww2, many to the civil war between communists and non-communists that linked with the Germans. :bash:

[martinexsquaddie]

if we'd had to rely on george bush jr to liberate europe we'd have had to relocate omaha beach to a reserve airbase outside texas and persuade the germans to turn up at weekends prefably after lunch :(.
Theres something just a little galling about political leaders grandstanding about the victorys of others knowing they'd never do something like that.

[mack pl]

Maybe it would have been better if stalin's forces chased the germans out of the corners of europe and stayed there.


You are jokking, yeah?Stalin wasnt better than Hitler dude.Comunism wasnt better than nazism.


If I had to choose between these to evils, I'd pick Hitler. Although Hitler sent people to consentration camps, he "only" sent jews and resistance people, not just huge amounts of random people like Stalin did.

Only Jews and resistance????Are you sure??What about priests,homo******s,witnes of Jehova(sp.) etc.!!!! Hey, do you heard about A-B action, against polish intelectuals, profesors etc...Do you know that he want to kill not only all Jews ,but Slavs too???Ohh, man,if you want you could belived that Hitler was better fuzker than Stalin, but its not fuzkin true........

Im pissed off when I reading BS like that-who was better hitler or stalin.They both were motherfuzkers!!!!!!!

Comunism wasnt better than nazism, that why in polish constitution(from 1997) this both political ideology are illegal!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards

[Operation Ivy]

Well i thought the article was gay,load of BS

(no need to bash france)

[OldRecon]

Another one of those sully nation mocking threads that end in flaming :(.
By and large I think the people of Western Europe were happy with the Allied liberation after D-day.
On the other hand, that the civilian in the Normandy/Caen area were affected by "war weariness" is also quite understandable, considering the heavy drawn-out fighting and consequential amount destruction there.
Being a civilian in that area and timeframe was no bed of roses, thus stroies about civilians scrounging corpses of dead soldiers for barter or food isn't all that surprising.
Also the last year of the war was a very harsh one for the Dutch people, with widespread starvation (+ several cases of flooding post WW-2 compounded by dikes destroyed during the war).
As for who benefited from WW-2, I'll say both the USA and Western Europe benefited from it.
Western Europe benefited in that US presence secured the foundations of democratic rule among it nations, as alternatives to either a nazi or communist autocratic style regimes. Trade relations with the US has also been prosperous for Western Europe to a degree that it would most probably not have been under the yoke of either Hitler or Stalin.
The Marshal plan in particular being crucial for getting the Western European economy going again.
The US benefited in that WW-2 released a lot of cash on the market, that hithero had been held in store by depression shaky investors (New deal had tried to achieve much the same but had sort of stalled through political oposition just before the outbreak of the war). Thus spreading wealth and encouraging consumption and expansion of the US middle class.
Through the liberation of Western Europe the USA also created a future market for trade with US produce, who would most probably not have been there, had either Hitler or Stalin conquered all of Europe.
In terms of science and technology the US also gained a lot with regards to import of ideas, inventions and people as a result of the upheveal caused by the emergence of Hitler on the political scene in Europe.
At the start of the war the USA wasn't exactly in the forefront of development of either radar, jet engines, rocket technology, codebreaking or nuclear weapons. Five years later the US held the field in all those branches of technology. Helped a lot along the way by Europeans.

[kinghk]

Well i thought the article was gay,load of BS

(no need to bash france)

There's no need to bash gays either.

[kinghk]

Im pissed off when I reading BS like that-who was better hitler or stalin.



I didn't wrote that Hitler was better than Stalin, I wrote that he was less worse.




They both were motherfuzkers!!!!!!!



Can't argue on that.




Comunism wasnt better than nazism, that why in polish constitution(from 1997) this both political ideology are illegal!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't believe in banning political idologys. Commies and nazies bans political ideologies.

[Bombtrack]

At any rate the title of the article is way off - all he was talking about was some French people he knew who liked the germans, some more than the Americans, he definately didnt say "France liked us more."

[Sharp]

I'm French and this is a big fake :roll:

I would like to meet this man.

Do not base your opinion on this bull****..

[mack pl]

Im pissed off when I reading BS like that-who was better hitler or stalin.



I didn't wrote that Hitler was better than Stalin, I wrote that he was less worse.
Less worse=better.........its BS still...........





They both were motherfuzkers!!!!!!!



Can't argue on that.
Maybe I should changed language(motefukers etc.),coz with this argument unfortunetaly you cannot argue ;) But I think they were BAD "people" ;)





Comunism wasnt better than nazism, that why in polish constitution(from 1997) this both political ideology are illegal!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't believe in banning political idologys. Commies and nazies bans political ideologies.
Yes,we cannot bann political ideologys, but we trying to bann ppl who trying to proof this ideologys are good.

ohh,well, i dont like to talking about **** like that-Hitler vs stalin, for me they were evil ppl,and theirs ideology was evil too......

regards

[Vance]

I have a dutch friend that make very bad comments on the americans in ww2.

"americans got the russians to do all the fighting"
"americans only landed in europe when it was too late"
"americans should have started d-day much sooner"

So I guess the UK is at fault too then eh? And the Canadians? :roll:

Listen you Euros here, let's face it; without OUR help (The big bad Americans) you would have been fighting that war for MANY more years or you would of NEVER won it at all. Even before America entered the war they gave valuable resources to Britain and other countries in Europe.

[Haiw]

:cantbeli: @ article & thread...

[dez000]

I have a dutch friend that make very bad comments on the americans in ww2.

"americans got the russians to do all the fighting"
"americans only landed in europe when it was too late"
"americans should have started d-day much sooner"

So I guess the UK is at fault too then eh? And the Canadians? :roll:

Listen you Euros here, let's face it; without OUR help (The big bad Americans) you would have been fighting that war for MANY more years or you would of NEVER won it at all. Even before America entered the war they gave valuable resources to Britain and other countries in Europe.

Perhaps some countries didn't want to fight because they had a better life under the ruling of Germany, perhaps some supressed people saw the chance of being free at last (because Hitler favoured them)

Look at some historic websites of Belgium, (the Flemish region)

And the US bombers did much damage... they bombed a town in Belgium instead of a factory for instance, hitting and destroying a school full of children...

Don't get me wrong, Hitler did many bad things... but for some people he did good things too... He just did more bad things then good things which ofcourse makes him a piece of trash which is luckily death...

I do not sympathize with Hitler I just understand why some people where happier with the Germans...

[BlackRain]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

[ZeroPositive]

a change of subject, sometimes I wonder if the Germans won the war in Europe I wouldn't be alive being Chinese/french *I look more asian* and all, but the London Underground would work on time, the trains would run on time, the buses would run on time, British things wouldn't be so messed up eg the NHS, I was seriously ill and had to wait a good 5 hrs before I got a chance to see anyone in Ealing hospital and it was a lone indonesian Female doctor....
Our taxes are stupidly high.... due to over immigration the local English/welsh/scottish white people no longer are keen on foreigners in the UK....
This goes for my relations in Holland, they are sick and tired of say the Turk and my uncle whose children do not look asian but white don't feel the heat I feel at times. Sometimes I don't know if this horrible evil we got rid of was all worth it.... sorry I am rambling just my thoughts may not be agree on by all, I am having a **** day.

Take care all

[Fioraon]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

[NcDeuce]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

[Vance]

I have a dutch friend that make very bad comments on the americans in ww2.

"americans got the russians to do all the fighting"
"americans only landed in europe when it was too late"
"americans should have started d-day much sooner"

So I guess the UK is at fault too then eh? And the Canadians? :roll:

Listen you Euros here, let's face it; without OUR help (The big bad Americans) you would have been fighting that war for MANY more years or you would of NEVER won it at all. Even before America entered the war they gave valuable resources to Britain and other countries in Europe.

Perhaps some countries didn't want to fight because they had a better life under the ruling of Germany, perhaps some supressed people saw the chance of being free at last (because Hitler favoured them)

Look at some historic websites of Belgium, (the Flemish region)

And the US bombers did much damage... they bombed a town in Belgium instead of a factory for instance, hitting and destroying a school full of children...

Don't get me wrong, Hitler did many bad things... but for some people he did good things too... He just did more bad things then good things which ofcourse makes him a piece of trash which is luckily death...

I do not sympathize with Hitler I just understand why some people where happier with the Germans...
What? I wasn't even near what you just said. I was talking about American effort in the war not wether people like Hitler or not.

Anyways, about the bombing. In war, people make mistakes. Can you really hold it against them?

[Jehuty]

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

Did you pull this out of your ass?
There are countless articles or books about Vichy and his meaning, since at least 20 years now, the difficulties were iddmediatly after the war.


The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

The ill government of the Third Republic surrendered, i'm not sure many French where happy to be occupied, think a little bit.


There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

Yes that's true, and many did the opposite thing.
But you know what? The vast majority just tried to survive and take care of their families, often what happens in dark times.

This article is totally gay and full of generalizations, we never wanted more the Germans than the Americans and freedom.

[Operation Ivy]

Well i thought the article was gay,load of BS

(no need to bash france)

There's no need to bash gays either. :roll:

[BlackRain]

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

Did you pull this out of your ass?
There are countless articles or books about Vichy and his meaning, since at least 20 years now, the difficulties were iddmediatly after the war.


France Won't Take Vichy Era Blame


In June 1940, the French National Assembly unanimously voted the Vichy regime full powers.


Only a handful of French military personnel resisted in the early days of the occupation, fleeing to London where they established the Free French Forces.

http://www.codoh.com/newsdesk/000306.html



After the war, the French sought to distance themselves from the Vichy past, asserting that the anti-Jewish measures had been imposed by the Nazis and that only a few anti-Semitic zealots in the administration had supported the anti-Jewish program. Caron presents overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

By examining the socioeconomic and political factors that informed French refugee policy in the 1930s, she shows that Vichy's anti-Semitic program had widespread popular support, especially among middle-class professionals -- doctors, lawyers, merchants and artisans -- who perceived Jews as a competitive threat.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May99/Caron.French.Jews.html

Missing hard truth about Vichy, but ably cataloguing its mean history


In Africa and the Middle East and Indochina, troops and functionaries loyal to the French state fought against American, British, and Fighting French (later Free French) troops as they closed in on the Axis. On this Mr. Curtis also has it right. Vichy served the German war effort and the war effort had the killing of Jews as one of it primary strategic objectives. And Vichy was France.

http://www.washtimes.com/books/20030705-111458-8740r.htm

[GrimmyRX]

I though you guys are mixing the title for the artical. The artical itself was a good one. The title was ****, lol.

All the artical talked about was a single German soldier's experiance (not all too different from a single American Soldier's experiance, or a single Canadian soldiers experiance, et al) on the beaches of Normandy.

I do believe the main point of the artical is stated at the end: "At least around Omaha beach, the Germans treated us correctly," Mrs Lemaire said last week. "They were not all barbarians and not all the French were in the Resistance. Franz and Hedwig are our friends now."

Take it as such, and do a favour by ignoring the title.

[Dalleer]

I have a dutch friend that make very bad comments on the americans in ww2.

"americans got the russians to do all the fighting"
"americans only landed in europe when it was too late"
"americans should have started d-day much sooner"

You know, I have to agree with you on this one. There are some really dumb individuals here in Europe that have the guts to say this sort of stuff about the US's effort to liberate Europe.

Without the American efforts in Europe during WWII, history would have been very different. Many nations could've stayed under Nazi occupation for a long time and suffered more.

Maybe the Russians would've come and "liberated" the occupied countries at some point, but I'd consider it a "back to the same situation" myself. I am very thankful for what the US did, despite the thing that my country wasn't directly occupied by the Germans.

To think that the Americans came across the Atlantic to shed blood in order to help us Europeans. I can never even imagine what it felt like for the veterans to be out there , but it is very much due to their efforts that people like this "dutch" get the chance to say things like this.

I wouldn't know about the other Europeans here, but I am personally very thankful for the efforts that the allied forces put together in order to free Europe.

[Vance]

Thank you Dalleer woot

[kinghk]

I wouldn't know about the other Europeans here, but I am personally very thankful for the efforts that the allied forces put together in order to free Europe.

So am I.

But some of you americans could be a littlebit more grateful to Europe also.
Done forget where your ancestors come from, if it weren't for Europe, USA would not be as it is today.

[cut]

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

Did you pull this out of your ass?
There are countless articles or books about Vichy and his meaning, since at least 20 years now, the difficulties were iddmediatly after the war.


France Won't Take Vichy Era Blame


In June 1940, the French National Assembly unanimously voted the Vichy regime full powers.


Only a handful of French military personnel resisted in the early days of the occupation, fleeing to London where they established the Free French Forces.

http://www.codoh.com/newsdesk/000306.html



After the war, the French sought to distance themselves from the Vichy past, asserting that the anti-Jewish measures had been imposed by the Nazis and that only a few anti-Semitic zealots in the administration had supported the anti-Jewish program. Caron presents overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

By examining the socioeconomic and political factors that informed French refugee policy in the 1930s, she shows that Vichy's anti-Semitic program had widespread popular support, especially among middle-class professionals -- doctors, lawyers, merchants and artisans -- who perceived Jews as a competitive threat.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May99/Caron.French.Jews.html

Missing hard truth about Vichy, but ably cataloguing its mean history


In Africa and the Middle East and Indochina, troops and functionaries loyal to the French state fought against American, British, and Fighting French (later Free French) troops as they closed in on the Axis. On this Mr. Curtis also has it right. Vichy served the German war effort and the war effort had the killing of Jews as one of it primary strategic objectives. And Vichy was France.

http://www.washtimes.com/books/20030705-111458-8740r.htm

vichy did not represent the french therefor you can't say "Vichy was france"

You can leave out this anti-french propaganda it doesn't help anyone.

[Zarathustra]

F*ck the French

Did you forgot your brain, ass?

[Kilgor]

You can leave out this anti-french propaganda it doesn't help anyone.

For four years it was.

[Fioraon]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

[EvanL]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers
Careful man. Hes in ROTC. He might have to shuffle some papers on your ass. p-)

[SeanAshi]

Didn't Churchill have the HMS Hood sink some French Naval Ships in N. Africa for surrending?

[EvanL]

Didn't Churchill have the HMS Hood sink some French Naval Ships in N. Africa for surrending?
I believe they sunk the ship so that it wouldnt come under the control of the Vichy government and handed over to the Nazis for use.
the island of St Pierre et Miquelon, off the coast of Canada, is a french island still under the control of France. During WW2 my Grandfathers regiment was stationed on the east coast, and for months practiced storming the islands, in anticipation of a Nazi uprising there. But the islands remained neutral and they stood down.

[MEGR]

Will the flaming ever end?

[Fioraon]

Careful man. Hes in ROTC. He might have to shuffle some papers on your ass. p-)

Uh oh, big bad cadet gonna kiss, I mean kick* my ass...

rofl

[German_American]

I remember reading how about 50 or so British vets arnt able to go to the ceremony on June 6th because there isnt enough space. Is that true because that is really messed up. My grandfather was on Omaha and if he was alive today and was told he wasnt allowed to go I'm sure he would have a **** fit. As for the Germans, my grandfather always use to tell me he had an enourmous respect for the average German soldier and I dont think he would have a problem having them attend the ceremony. That is just one vets point of view who served throughout Europe.

[n.ignomo]

Vichy was only the southern half of France and mostly during 3 years. Then the whole France has been invaded. You should remeber that at the end of the war, most of the VIchy's leaders have been arrested and for most executed. All the laws made under Vichy have been destroyed and don't you forget about free french government which started in Alger.

[NcDeuce]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

We're talking about Nazis, ****-for-brains. And BTW, you aren't in the service...that's right. Same for you Lloyd.

[Vance]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

We're talking about Nazis, ****-for-brains. And BTW, you aren't in the service...that's right. Same for you Lloyd.
Now now, all Germans weren't Nazis, we all know this. ;)

[EvanL]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

We're talking about Nazis, ****-for-brains. And BTW, you aren't in the service...that's right. Same for you Lloyd.
Ohh im so sorry cadet. I forgot about how important you are. Especially to me.
good luck shining shoes.

[NcDeuce]

rofl

They're called boots. You can call me or whoever a cadet as much as you want...if you think you're putting us down, that's freakin hilarious. Look at every officer this nation has ever produced and where they came from. You crack me up.

[EvanL]

rofl

They're called boots. You can call me or whoever a cadet as much as you want...if you think you're putting us down, that's freakin hilarious. Look at every officer this nation has ever produced and where they came from. You crack me up.
I have the utmost appreciation for the officers of any country. And i am aware that at the beginnning they were cadets. But you should not compare yourself to great officers. You have not achieved there status yet. And if you wish to. I suggest an attitude change. Remember, Officers are leaders. And from everything i have seen you talk about on this site, you in no way represent what a leader should be.

[NcDeuce]

rofl

They're called boots. You can call me or whoever a cadet as much as you want...if you think you're putting us down, that's freakin hilarious. Look at every officer this nation has ever produced and where they came from. You crack me up.
I have the utmost appreciation for the officers of any country. And i am aware that at the beginnning they were cadets. But you should not compare yourself to great officers. You have not achieved there status yet. And if you wish to. I suggest an attitude change. Remember, Officers are leaders. And from everything i have seen you talk about on this site, you in no way represent what a leader should be.

Where was I comparing myself to
great officers? I suggest you get an attitude change because your definition of leader must be skewed.

BTW, when did we start judging intangibles on an internet forum? rofl :cantbeli:

[Fioraon]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

We're talking about Nazis, ****-for-brains. And BTW, you aren't in the service...that's right. Same for you Lloyd.

rofl


Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

God pray they don't even put you in logistics. Maybe you can be the **** burning 2Lt.

[NcDeuce]

This article does bring up a valid point.

The French refuse to confront their Vichy goverment past which was established on July 10, 1940 by the French parliament.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

There were hundreds of thousands of French who collaborated against the Allied powers and actually preferred the Germans.

For more reading on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

Please tell me you're 6-years old. If not, punch yourself.

You got issues with Germans? You're the one acting like he's six.

cheers

We're talking about Nazis, ****-for-brains. And BTW, you aren't in the service...that's right. Same for you Lloyd.

rofl


Its is true, but who could blame them. The Germans are just so badass.

God pray they don't even put you in logistics. Maybe you can be the **** burning 2Lt.

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

What group of Germans received the territory, dingleberry?

I'm glad we have an expert speaking here. You haven't the faintest clue what Army logistics does. Hell, you probably don't even know where ALMC is. Way to expose your intelligence there bud.

[BlackRain]

Cut: You forget history.

The Vichy government was ELECTED into existence by the French Parliment, a democratic institution.

The Vichy government received popular support of the French population.

The Vichy government and French military actually FOUGHT against the allies.

Example:



Operation Torch

The Allies planned an Anglo-American invasion of northwestern Africa - Morocco and Algeria, territory nominally in the hands of Vichy France. The French had around 60,000 soldiers in Morocco as well as coastal artillery, a handful of tanks and aircraft, with ten or so warships and 11 submarines at Casablanca. The Allies believed that the French forces would not fight, although they harboured suspicions that the French navy would bear a grudge over the British action at Mers-el-Kebir (Oran) in 1940.

The initial forces landed on November 8, 1942 at Safi, Fedala, and Mehedia-Port Lyautey to sporadic French resistance. Pro-Allied forces had attempted a coup on the night of the 7th, but with no success. Safi, to the west, fell the most easily - on the first afternoon. The Americans met tougher resistance at Port Lyautey, although the French defence collapsed suddenly on the 10th.

The landing at Fedala, nearest to the target of Casablanca, formed potentially the most risky part of the operation - a sortie by the French navy could reach the landing sites within minutes, and so most of the Allied naval strength stood arrayed against this threat. Weather made the initial landings at Fedala tricky, while around Casablanca the French batteries soon opened fire on the US naval vessels and dogfights between French and US navy fighters occurred - the Allies sank or severely damaged four French destroyers and three submarines.

The initial landing at Fedala did not even finish until the 9th, and rather than advance, the American forces hung back.

The Vichy leader Admiral François Darlan was present in Algiers, and negotiations opened with him over a ceasefire. In France Hitler threatened Pétain that he would have Vichy invaded if the French did not resist. Darlan agreed to a surrender on November 11 and the Germans occupied Vichy France. Most of the French troops in Africa followed Darlan's lead but certain elements instead joined the German forces in Tunisia.


How popular was the Vichy government in France???

Vichy enjoyed widespread popularity. A huge majority of France's elected députés had voted for a radical change to the country's constitution. This was largely, although not exclusively, due to the character of Pétain. Today, there's still a strong current of pro-Pétainist sympathy in France.

To say that there was not wide support by French citizens for Vichy is simply a LIE.

What about the Resistance movement?

The largest resistance group was the National Front, a communist group. In its newspaper, L'Humanité, edited by Pierre Villon, the Communist Party called for a "National front for the independence of France." In May 1942, Villon established the resistance group, Front National, a full two years after the Vichy government was created.

[Fioraon]

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

What group of Germans received the territory, dingleberry?

Thank you dip ****, but I didn't say the Nazi's now did I?

[Fioraon]

I'm glad we have an expert speaking here. You haven't the faintest clue what Army logistics does. Hell, you probably don't even know where ALMC is. Way to expose your intelligence there bud.

Fort Lee Virginia, my brother spent nearly half a year there until he got the hell out.

[NcDeuce]

The French turned over 3/5ths of France to the Germans voluntarily.

What group of Germans received the territory, dingleberry?

Thank you dip ****, but I didn't say the Nazi's now did I?

Look, I'll try to clarify this because I know your brain cannot handle this amount of information at one time.

The "Germans" "received" "French" "territory". Right? Okay, relax for a second so I don't lose you...

Germany would control northern and western France. Right? Okay, slowly...let's move on...

France had to pay the occupation costs of the German troops, and prevent any French people leaving the country. All Jews in France were handed over to Germany.

Conclusion...http://www.musee-resistance.com/histo/DH/images/eiffel2-1.jpg

I made it short so your brain would not explode. Have a nice day.

[Fioraon]

Maybe you should make me a picture book. I fail to see your point. Im aware Nazi's ruled Germany, and Im aware Nazi's controlled northern France... So what?

[DPGLAW]

Too bad we, the Allies, didn;t just let the Germans have France....we could of tried to make a deal, leave the rest of the workd alone and we will let oyu have france...lol I know it wouldn't of worked but since this article is so indicitave of how little the French appreciate that the US saved their ass and this is obviously evident especially today. Because of that I felt a need to make that comment....lol

[Haiw]

Oh dear... the French gave 3/5 of their country to the Germans voluntarily....riiiiiiiiiiiiight. So that's why the Germans had to blitzkrieg all their way to Paris instead of being welcomed with flowers? :roll: This thread really makes the history books cry.

[Vance]

Oh dear... the French gave 3/5 of their country to the Germans voluntarily....riiiiiiiiiiiiight. So that's why the Germans had to blitzkrieg all their way to Paris instead of being welcomed with flowers? :roll: This thread really makes the history books cry.
6 weeks. :lol:

[Haiw]

Well they didn't happen to have an ocean between Germany's superior army and their own country...

[Kilgor]

thats no execuse.

Like stalin, they clearly ignored the german threat, built the totally unless maginot line, and failed to modernise their armed forces despite being pioneers in some modern war technology.

[Jehuty]

The Vichy government was ELECTED into existence by the French Parliment, a democratic institution.

The parliement gave Petain full powers in a time of crisis (his reputation at this time was "Savior of Verdun" not "Antisemit Dictator"), doing so was obviously a suicide considering what happened after, but in no way people in France said "Screw democracy" as you would like to make it sounds.
The Third Republic was ill, but fascism has never been powerful in France and failed way before WW2.


The Vichy government received popular support of the French population.

The Vichy government and French military actually FOUGHT against the allies.

Example:



Operation Torch

The Allies planned an Anglo-American invasion of northwestern Africa - Morocco and Algeria, territory nominally in the hands of Vichy France. The French had around 60,000 soldiers in Morocco as well as coastal artillery, a handful of tanks and aircraft, with ten or so warships and 11 submarines at Casablanca. The Allies believed that the French forces would not fight, although they harboured suspicions that the French navy would bear a grudge over the British action at Mers-el-Kebir (Oran) in 1940.

The initial forces landed on November 8, 1942 at Safi, Fedala, and Mehedia-Port Lyautey to sporadic French resistance. Pro-Allied forces had attempted a coup on the night of the 7th, but with no success. Safi, to the west, fell the most easily - on the first afternoon. The Americans met tougher resistance at Port Lyautey, although the French defence collapsed suddenly on the 10th.

The landing at Fedala, nearest to the target of Casablanca, formed potentially the most risky part of the operation - a sortie by the French navy could reach the landing sites within minutes, and so most of the Allied naval strength stood arrayed against this threat. Weather made the initial landings at Fedala tricky, while around Casablanca the French batteries soon opened fire on the US naval vessels and dogfights between French and US navy fighters occurred - the Allies sank or severely damaged four French destroyers and three submarines.

The initial landing at Fedala did not even finish until the 9th, and rather than advance, the American forces hung back.

The Vichy leader Admiral François Darlan was present in Algiers, and negotiations opened with him over a ceasefire. In France Hitler threatened Pétain that he would have Vichy invaded if the French did not resist. Darlan agreed to a surrender on November 11 and the Germans occupied Vichy France. Most of the French troops in Africa followed Darlan's lead but certain elements instead joined the German forces in Tunisia.




This is 3 days of small fights against americans and a majority then joined the Free French Force.It's in your quote of Wikipedia and underline the opposite won't make it more important. :roll:
Now why not talking about the thousands of Free French forces who fought on every fronts during the whole war, sometimes even against others French? The ones who won Kouffra, who showed heroic resistance at Bir-Akheim, who landed in Provence or Normandy?

Ho yes i know, because according to you there was only one France: Vichy and only one French people during WW2. :roll:


How popular was the Vichy government in France???

Vichy enjoyed widespread popularity. A huge majority of France's elected députés had voted for a radical change to the country's constitution. This was largely, although not exclusively, due to the character of Pétain.
Today, there's still a strong current of pro-Pétainist sympathy in France.

To say that there was not wide support by French citizens for Vichy is simply a LIE.

And why in your opinion? Because the French people was naturally fascist and antisemit?
Or maybe because there was intense propaganda showing Petain as the defensor of the French people through the National Revolution?
As i said, most people didn't care and just tried to survive and take care of their families.Those who resisted or collaborated were an extreme minority, and that is a fact.
Try to think history please, don't only copy-paste it. :roll:

BTW you'll have to show concrete evidences to prove that there is still a big pro-petainist movement in France, because even the worst far-right here don't even dare to talk about him positively in the medias or publicly and as a French, i still wait to see someone trying to make him looks "cool".


What about the Resistance movement?

The largest resistance group was the National Front, a communist group. In its newspaper, L'Humanité, edited by Pierre Villon, the Communist Party called for a "National front for the independence of France." In May 1942, Villon established the resistance group, Front National, a full two years after the Vichy government was created.

The biggest movement was communist? No **** Sherlock? :roll:
Point?

In reply to one of your previous post, i also wait for you to prove me that in France, we still don't face the hard truth about Vichy.
Because it surprises me a lot when i remember studying this well know photo of a park forbidden to jews kids or about the Vel d'Hiv rafle when i was in school, or when i saw all these documentaries on TV about it.
It also amazes me because as a history student in university, i learned that it indeed tooks a lot of time in France to admit Vichy, but everything started in the early seventies with this american book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231124694/qid=1086047790/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8150049-4446536?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and since then, countless books and articles have been written by French historians like Milza or Bernstein for exemple.

Anyway i simply fail to see any point in your posts, or is it just for some good old bashing?

[Kilgor]

On D-day, France has no right to lecture
June 1, 2004

The Age
Australia

Look at history. The French should learn some modesty, and quickly, writes Gerard Henderson.

Next Sunday marks the 60th anniversary of the D-day landings at Normandy in north-western France, which began the liberation of much of western Europe from Nazi Germany rule. George Bush and Tony Blair will be present at the commemoration. John Howard will have a minor role.

And naturally, France will be represented on June 6, by its President, Jacques Chirac.

At a time when the "give-peace-a-chance" mantra is once again prevalent, it is worth recording that Adolf Hitler's regime was crushed by military force and that the D-day landings were led by the Americans and the British. No member of any pacifist society, nor any member of any international organisation, ever troubled Hitler's Reich. What's more, despite Charles de Gaulle's attempt to rewrite history, the French played only a small part in their nation's liberation in 1944 and 1945.

The presence of so many leaders at the one place provides an occasion for some discussions about Iraq in the lead-up to the handover of authority to Iraqis. There is still a degree of tension between Bush and Chirac concerning France's announcement in early 2003 that it would veto any United Nations Security Council resolution that would have facilitated an invasion of Iraq.

This is understandable - from the coalition of the willing's perspective. In early 2003, Chirac's Government believed that Saddam Hussein's regime had weapons of mass destruction. By refusing to support the stance of Bush and Blair, France effectively sent a message to Saddam that he had little reason to fear an invasion. That is, if Iraq had WMD it could keep them - for the short term, at least. And if it did not have WMD, there was no reason to abide by numerous mandatory Security Council resolutions and declare this.

Despite the deteriorating security situation in Iraq, there have been scant "I-told-you-so" refrains from the Elysee Palace in recent months. This possibly reflects a view in France that Chirac went over the top with his criticisms of the Bush Administration in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq. Whatever the extent of Chirac's evident dislike of Bush, it is not in France's national interest to see Iraq dissolve into civil war or anarchy.

Last year Chirac gave megalomania a real nudge. During the course of a few months, the French President criticised the US, lectured Britain and dressed down the new members of the European Union from central and eastern Europe. For all Chirac's grandstanding in 2003, the French conservatives did poorly in France's regional elections last March.

The events of June 6 serve as a reminder of the fact that, over the past century or so, French governments have spoken loudly but carried a small stick. France fought bravely to turn back the German invasion in 1914 but by 1917 its military forces were of little consequence. The German Army was defeated in the field in late 1918 primarily by Commonwealth nations. The US decision to enter the war in 1917 also put pressure on the German High Command.

In 1940 France was defeated by Germany. There followed wide-scale collaboration in both the German occupied zone (that is, in the north-west, centred on Paris) and the unoccupied zone (that is, in the south, centred on Vichy). The degree of collaboration - which included the deportation of tens of thousands of French Jews to Nazi death camps in the east - was effectively ignored for decades after the war.

The extent of collaboration - on both the right and left of French politics - was first revealed by the American historian Robert Paxton in the early 1970s. Recent works in this genre include Adam Nossiter's France and the Nazis, Robert Gildea's Marianne in Chains and Michael Curtis's Verdict on Vichy. Certainly there was some resistance, but this mainly became a factor as a German defeat (on both the eastern and western fronts) seemed evident.

Just a decade after June 6, 1944, the French were defeated by Vietnamese communist forces at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Some 60,000 French troops died in Indochina before the surrender on May 7, 1954. Subsequently, despite the presence of more than 500,000 troops, the French withdrew defeated from Algeria in 1962.

French colonialism expired - first in Vietnam, then in Algeria - in just a decade.

Some Indochinese settled successfully in France. Not so the 5 million Muslims (about 10 per cent of France's population) who live in France after France's unsuccessful attempt at colonising parts of North Africa. Critics of multiculturalism in Australia and elsewhere would be well advised to look at the problems caused when migrant groups are not welcomed into a society. Today parts of Paris and some other major French cities are effectively no-go areas for police and security forces.

There has been a long-term anti-Semitic tradition in France, historically stemming from the right. This intolerance has now been accentuated by an influx of anti-Semites from North Africa. The unpleasant reality is well documented in Marie Brenner's essay in the new edited collection Those Who Forget the Past.

Add to all this the fact that the over-regulated French economy is holding back European economic growth, and it is evident that President Chirac is in no position to lecture the world. Especially in foreign policy, where France preaches multilateralism to the US and Britain but practises unilateralism when it sees fit - in Rwanda (on the wrong side of the civil war), the Ivory Coast and even New Zealand (remember France's terrorist attack on the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour?).

Here's hoping that D-day 2004 kick-starts some modesty on the part of the French political class. But don't bet on it.

Gerard Henderson is executive director of The Sydney Institute

[StarvingStudent47]

[in response to the initial post]

I can only assume that this Nazi is talking exclusively about non-Jewish Frenchpeople...the ones his military DIDN'T load into rail cars for the Final Solution?

F*cker.

[n.ignomo]

Kilgor in France this article would be called a far right extremist one. What a pity US and UK have only 2 political sides, otherwise we would know how they really think.
Anyway to get back to the point, how do you think the allies knew where to bomb and where to land...who risked his life to send beach's sand to England to know if tanks could go on it, who told the allies where V-1 launching sites were located ? Watch "The Longest Day" again !

[Kilgor]

That "article" was printed in a very reputable upper class newspaper.

If it was far right, it would never have made it into the age.

[BlackRain]

The Vichy government was ELECTED into existence by the French Parliment, a democratic institution.

The parliement gave Petain full powers in a time of crisis (his reputation at this time was "Savior of Verdun" not "Antisemit Dictator"), doing so was obviously a suicide considering what happened after, but in no way people in France said "Screw democracy" as you would like to make it sounds.
The Third Republic was ill, but fascism has never been powerful in France and failed way before WW2.


The Vichy government received popular support of the French population.

The Vichy government and French military actually FOUGHT against the allies.

Example:



Operation Torch

The Allies planned an Anglo-American invasion of northwestern Africa - Morocco and Algeria, territory nominally in the hands of Vichy France. The French had around 60,000 soldiers in Morocco as well as coastal artillery, a handful of tanks and aircraft, with ten or so warships and 11 submarines at Casablanca. The Allies believed that the French forces would not fight, although they harboured suspicions that the French navy would bear a grudge over the British action at Mers-el-Kebir (Oran) in 1940.

The initial forces landed on November 8, 1942 at Safi, Fedala, and Mehedia-Port Lyautey to sporadic French resistance. Pro-Allied forces had attempted a coup on the night of the 7th, but with no success. Safi, to the west, fell the most easily - on the first afternoon. The Americans met tougher resistance at Port Lyautey, although the French defence collapsed suddenly on the 10th.

The landing at Fedala, nearest to the target of Casablanca, formed potentially the most risky part of the operation - a sortie by the French navy could reach the landing sites within minutes, and so most of the Allied naval strength stood arrayed against this threat. Weather made the initial landings at Fedala tricky, while around Casablanca the French batteries soon opened fire on the US naval vessels and dogfights between French and US navy fighters occurred - the Allies sank or severely damaged four French destroyers and three submarines.

The initial landing at Fedala did not even finish until the 9th, and rather than advance, the American forces hung back.

The Vichy leader Admiral François Darlan was present in Algiers, and negotiations opened with him over a ceasefire. In France Hitler threatened Pétain that he would have Vichy invaded if the French did not resist. Darlan agreed to a surrender on November 11 and the Germans occupied Vichy France. Most of the French troops in Africa followed Darlan's lead but certain elements instead joined the German forces in Tunisia.




This is 3 days of small fights against americans and a majority then joined the Free French Force.It's in your quote of Wikipedia and underline the opposite won't make it more important. :roll:
Now why not talking about the thousands of Free French forces who fought on every fronts during the whole war, sometimes even against others French? The ones who won Kouffra, who showed heroic resistance at Bir-Akheim, who landed in Provence or Normandy?

Ho yes i know, because according to you there was only one France: Vichy and only one French people during WW2. :roll:


How popular was the Vichy government in France???

Vichy enjoyed widespread popularity. A huge majority of France's elected députés had voted for a radical change to the country's constitution. This was largely, although not exclusively, due to the character of Pétain.
Today, there's still a strong current of pro-Pétainist sympathy in France.

To say that there was not wide support by French citizens for Vichy is simply a LIE.

And why in your opinion? Because the French people was naturally fascist and antisemit?
Or maybe because there was intense propaganda showing Petain as the defensor of the French people through the National Revolution?
As i said, most people didn't care and just tried to survive and take care of their families.Those who resisted or collaborated were an extreme minority, and that is a fact.
Try to think history please, don't only copy-paste it. :roll:

BTW you'll have to show concrete evidences to prove that there is still a big pro-petainist movement in France, because even the worst far-right here don't even dare to talk about him positively in the medias or publicly and as a French, i still wait to see someone trying to make him looks "cool".


What about the Resistance movement?

The largest resistance group was the National Front, a communist group. In its newspaper, L'Humanité, edited by Pierre Villon, the Communist Party called for a "National front for the independence of France." In May 1942, Villon established the resistance group, Front National, a full two years after the Vichy government was created.

The biggest movement was communist? No **** Sherlock? :roll:
Point?

In reply to one of your previous post, i also wait for you to prove me that in France, we still don't face the hard truth about Vichy.
Because it surprises me a lot when i remember studying this well know photo of a park forbidden to jews kids or about the Vel d'Hiv rafle when i was in school, or when i saw all these documentaries on TV about it.
It also amazes me because as a history student in university, i learned that it indeed tooks a lot of time in France to admit Vichy, but everything started in the early seventies with this american book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231124694/qid=1086047790/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8150049-4446536?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and since then, countless books and articles have been written by French historians like Milza or Bernstein for exemple.

Anyway i simply fail to see any point in your posts, or is it just for some good old bashing?

Your post proves the point.

When ever someone mentions Vichy to a Frenchman:

He becomes defensive, gives lots of excuses, and transfers the blame.

Where I come from, people just don't do what they have to survive. What a totally selfish and self centered concept.

Live free or die.

I doubt you would find many Americans who would have lived or acted the same way the French did in WWII.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference.

Oh and here is an example from todays news that you requested:


Historian Peter Schoettler says the post-war politics of General Charles de Gaulle were based on the myth that all French had fought in the anti-Nazi resistance and on blanking out the existence of the collaborationist Vichy government, established after France surrendered to the Germans in 1940.

It was only in 1995 that President Jacques Chirac recognized Vichy's role in the Holocaust and became the first French head of state to formally apologize to the Jewish people.

Not only did the French not resist the Germans very well, they made babies together. France has an estimated 200,000 half-German war children.



Source: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=572&e=2&u=/nm/france_germany_warbabies_dc

[Hydro]

Where I come from, people just don't do what they have to survive. What a totally selfish and self centered concept.

How do you know? When was the last time you were invaded by a superior force, who started shooting anyone who resisted? I think your self-preservation kicks in pretty hard when you're staring down the barrel of an MG42.

[Olybrius]

I doubt you would find many Americans who would have lived or acted the same way the French did in WWII.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference.


Really ?
let's see

U.S. history quizz :

1. On August 4, 1914, the Germans invaded Belgium. Since Belgium was neutral, no country was bound to her by treaty. Nevertheless a large number of countries came to her aid by declaring war on Germany. Which one of the following countries did NOT come to Belgium’s aid?

A) France
B) Russia
C) Britain
D) Australia
E) Canada
F) New Zealand
G) The United States of America


2. On April 6, 1917, the United States finally declared war on Germany, although somehow no US troops actually faced any Germans for another year. As any American can tell us, the act which pushed America into the war was the sinking of the Lusitania by the German submarine U-20, an attack which killed 1201 men, women and children and shocked world opinion. When was the Lusitania sunk?

A) April 5, 1917
B) April 1, 1917
C) February 29, 1917
D) January 1, 1917
E) May 7, 1915


3. When the Panzers crossed the Polish frontier on September 1, 1939, Hitler crossed the line set by a group of nations who were determined to prevent further aggression whatever the cost. Which one of the following countries did NOT come to Poland’s aid?

A) France
B) Britain
C) Canada
D) Australia
E) New Zealand
F) The United States of America


4. On Oct 31, 1941, The destroyer USS Reuben James was torpedoed by the German submarine U-562. Her magazine exploded and she sank with the loss of 100 out of 144 men. The Reuben James was the second US destroyer torpedoed by a German submarine with loss of life in the space of a fortnight, the Kearny having been struck by U-568 on 17 Oct 1941. Did the US:

A) Come into the war to protect its Atlantic trade route?
B) Come into the war to share the burden of the fight against Hitler?
C) Come into the war to avenge the deaths of its sailors?
D) Act as if nothing had happened?


5. On Dec 7, 1941, Japanese aircraft launched a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour, declaring war on the US simultaneously. Although it was then fully engaged fighting Hitler alone, Britain immediately declared war on Japan, and paid the price when the Japanese overran Singapore, sending tens of thousands of British prisoners to die in Burma. What did America do to thank Britain?

A) Declare war against Nazi Germany as Britain had done against America’s enemy Japan
B) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it was allied to Japan
C) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it menaced the existence of Britain and the free world
D) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it was evil, strangled US trade and sank US ships
E) Cravenly continue to try to avoid war against Germany, leaving its ally to face Hitler alone, until a bemused Hitler got bored of waiting and DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES


6. Which of the following two countries sacrificed more of its young men confronting Hitler?

A) The United States
B) France

and finally

What is the smallest number of casualties in human history ever to force a country to surrender and recall its troops?

A) 1,700,000 dead, which knocked Russia out of WW1 in 1917
B) 123,000 dead, which knocked France out of the 1st part of WW2 in 1940
C) 58,182 dead, which knocked the US out of Vietnam in 1971-75
D) 241 dead, which knocked the US out of Lebanon in 1983
E) 19 dead, which knocked the US out of Somalia in 1993

[SwissGrenadier]

simplified anti american crap :|

[Vance]

I doubt you would find many Americans who would have lived or acted the same way the French did in WWII.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference.


Really ?
let's see

U.S. history quizz :

1. On August 4, 1914, the Germans invaded Belgium. Since Belgium was neutral, no country was bound to her by treaty. Nevertheless a large number of countries came to her aid by declaring war on Germany. Which one of the following countries did NOT come to Belgium’s aid?

A) France
B) Russia
C) Britain
D) Australia
E) Canada
F) New Zealand
G) The United States of America


2. On April 6, 1917, the United States finally declared war on Germany, although somehow no US troops actually faced any Germans for another year. As any American can tell us, the act which pushed America into the war was the sinking of the Lusitania by the German submarine U-20, an attack which killed 1201 men, women and children and shocked world opinion. When was the Lusitania sunk?

A) April 5, 1917
B) April 1, 1917
C) February 29, 1917
D) January 1, 1917
E) May 7, 1915


3. When the Panzers crossed the Polish frontier on September 1, 1939, Hitler crossed the line set by a group of nations who were determined to prevent further aggression whatever the cost. Which one of the following countries did NOT come to Poland’s aid?

A) France
B) Britain
C) Canada
D) Australia
E) New Zealand
F) The United States of America


4. On Oct 31, 1941, The destroyer USS Reuben James was torpedoed by the German submarine U-562. Her magazine exploded and she sank with the loss of 100 out of 144 men. The Reuben James was the second US destroyer torpedoed by a German submarine with loss of life in the space of a fortnight, the Kearny having been struck by U-568 on 17 Oct 1941. Did the US:

A) Come into the war to protect its Atlantic trade route?
B) Come into the war to share the burden of the fight against Hitler?
C) Come into the war to avenge the deaths of its sailors?
D) Act as if nothing had happened?


5. On Dec 7, 1941, Japanese aircraft launched a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour, declaring war on the US simultaneously. Although it was then fully engaged fighting Hitler alone, Britain immediately declared war on Japan, and paid the price when the Japanese overran Singapore, sending tens of thousands of British prisoners to die in Burma. What did America do to thank Britain?

A) Declare war against Nazi Germany as Britain had done against America’s enemy Japan
B) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it was allied to Japan
C) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it menaced the existence of Britain and the free world
D) Declare war against Nazi Germany because it was evil, strangled US trade and sank US ships
E) Cravenly continue to try to avoid war against Germany, leaving its ally to face Hitler alone, until a bemused Hitler got bored of waiting and DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES


6. Which of the following two countries sacrificed more of its young men confronting Hitler?

A) The United States
B) France

and finally

What is the smallest number of casualties in human history ever to force a country to surrender and recall its troops?

A) 1,700,000 dead, which knocked Russia out of WW1 in 1917
B) 123,000 dead, which knocked France out of the 1st part of WW2 in 1940
C) 58,182 dead, which knocked the US out of Vietnam in 1971-75
D) 241 dead, which knocked the US out of Lebanon in 1983
E) 19 dead, which knocked the US out of Somalia in 1993
You are a peice of ****. You know only know that ****ty one side of the story. Go burn in hell.

[Jehuty]

Your post proves the point.

When ever someone mentions Vichy to a Frenchman:

He becomes defensive, gives lots of excuses, and transfers the blame

Where I come from, people just don't do what they have to survive. What a totally selfish and self centered concept.

Live free or die.

I doubt you would find many Americans who would have lived or acted the same way the French did in WWII.

Perhaps it is just a cultural difference.

Yes because i idmediately said that Vichy never existed and that everyone was a resistant right? Or i didn't?

But your post also proves something, you are one of the biggest arrogant prick i ever have the displeasure to read.
How can you judge this kind of event whitout living it? (well a lot of Americans and Frenchmens are like you)
Cultural difference my ass, it's easy to say behind your computer that you and all your fellow countrymens would be heroic resistants but until someone come in your house and point a gun at your head, or until an army comes into your city and start to kills hostages randomly (the day to day life of a resistant), i suggest you to shut your big mouth.
At least now you show your true face, just one more French-basher who think he knows something in history. :roll:


Oh and here is an example from todays news that you requested:


Historian Peter Schoettler says the post-war politics of General Charles de Gaulle were based on the myth that all French had fought in the anti-Nazi resistance and on blanking out the existence of the collaborationist Vichy government, established after France surrendered to the Germans in 1940.

It was only in 1995 that President Jacques Chirac recognized Vichy's role in the Holocaust and became the first French head of state to formally apologize to the Jewish people.

Wow thanxs for that, it shows that you can't prove that now in France we don't show the thruth about Vichy.Well it's pretty logical since it's an lie.


Not only did the French not resist the Germans very well, they made babies together. France has an estimated 200,000 half-German war children.

Excuse me but your level of argumentation got a sudden drop here.
Yes there has been a lot of Franco-Germans babies during this 4 (or 5) years, but since when a soldier of the Wechmacht and a Frenchwomen can't fall in love? Never thought of it or in your great stupidity you just imagined a women raising her legs to get a baby from the occupier?
I also read a few things about it and the way those kids have been treated after the war is unacceptable.

Get off of your high horse mister "Live Free or Die", and start to think.

[Olybrius]

You are a peice of ****. You know only know that ****ty one side of the story. Go burn in hell.

please no insults , it's only history ;)

[radon]

Where I come from, people just don't do what they have to survive. What a totally selfish and self centered concept.

How do you know? Do you think all normal people started to resist with doing something , remember Usa is full of obese. What would people like Michael Moore do? Immigrants who just arrived to make money? Sorry I think Usa is just like everyone else. Usa has cowards and brave people , and something between them.

And about France one has to remember the big losses of ww1 , that has something to do why they put theyr head in the sand. America in ww1 had small losses and the war on the other side of the ocean.

[Vance]

You are a peice of ****. You know only know that ****ty one side of the story. Go burn in hell.

please no insults , it's only history ;)
Repeat after me: History has two sides to every story.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

When ever someone mentions Vichy to a Frenchman:

He becomes defensive, gives lots of excuses, and transfers the blame.
Yes BlackRain we all have our Achilles Heel / Skeleton in the closet what country does not.


Live free or die.

I doubt you would find many Americans who would have lived or acted the same way the French did in WWII.
It was sometime after the liberation of France and the end WW2 before a certain sector of American society gained full freedom of movement and equality and it took great protests and strife before they attained this. Despite the absolute purity of their cause many Americans were unwilling to grant these people the freedom that they themselves enjoyed.


Perhaps it is just a cultural difference.
There is little difference between us.

[David Lehmann]

Hello everyone,

I am new among your community.
Much hate and anti-French feelings or mutual country bashing in this forum apparently :|

Concerning what happened after the French defeat I would like to add some points.

In the summer of 1940, there was grossly no more French people. A high percentage of the population north of the Loire river had fled their houses, and were crawling south on the roads, civilian and flying soldiers together under repetitive terror bombings from the Germans. Bridges were destroyed, roads interrupted and all railways rolling stocks were evacuated to the south. Ninety per cent of the Paris population was trying to join the south. At the entries of Abbeville, the number of refugees killed by the Germans was so high that, even today nobody can estimate how many refugees, French and Belgian, lost their lives there.

There was no administration left in most of towns, firemen had been ordered to go south, the town staff, the medics, all people with cars had fled. The government was also on the roads, Paris, Tours, Bordeaux, Clermont Ferrand, Vichy. Nobody did know what was going on, and except for some unheard speeches of Petain, and what could be found on some rare edition of local south France papers there was no information medias.

All reactions were individual. Some committed suicide. The majority tried to join their lost family members. Until November 1940, lists of children found and lost were published by the red cross and the church. There was no post before August, no direct trains to Paris or Lille or Nancy before November. Travel was limited, and Germans prohibited the return of refugees to the north-east zone.

The majority of the population was knocked unconscious, and just trying to survive. In addition, remember there were 1,450,000 prisoners, men in the prime of life, with wife and children left behind.
What happened in Vichy was entirely indifferent to the individuals. Even Montoire remained largely ignored, in November 1940

The German Europe conception was largely ignored before 1943. Papers did not consider this subject. They limited their comments to the collaboration concept, and often to the practical aspects of this collaboration, crossing of demarcation line, sending of interzone postcards, regulations edited by the authorities, south, north and Brussels. With some local news and information on rations cards, some sport results and the deaths and births, the four to eight pages of the papers were rapidly filled.
I a not sure the leadership in Vichy did really discuss on this Germanic Europe. They had lots of inner quarrels to solve, and a new regime to organize.
Political life was minimal, and people were not interested if the subject was not everyday life, or war news on successes or defeats. Moreover the general opinion was that all printed matter was lie. And already in occupied Paris in 1940 several men not willing to obey to the Germans had been shot.

Until about 1942, the majority of the French in the Free Area were more or less in favor of Vichy. In the Occupied Area the participation to a political movement was generally not the acceptation of an ideology at all but it was just a mean to improve everyday's life.

The youth was also often attracted by the uniforms (which otherwise were totally banned in the occupied area) and the organized leisure of the paramilitary movements. Wearing an uniform was a promotion in the men's world and several 16 year old boys were enrolled in the German army. It was also a break with all the other small movements without future and with poorly charismatic leaders having little audience. The idea of the unique party had failed and the new idea of a unified Europe against communism seemed at one hand an easier notion to understand and something more important than the little French-French interests.
These men were not national-socialist generally but anti-communist.

For the adults, going to several meetings or simply joining to a political movement by signing a paper translated generally the research of improving every day's life (for example in exchange of the promise to liberate a brother, a father ... which was held in Germany or forced to work in German industries), simply the curiosity or even sometimes a kind of snobbery favoring sometimes local promotion.

But when the question was to wear the German uniform, to join the German auxiliary forces, the police, the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS the issue was totally different. In 1941 their was still the perspective of a short war which could have tempted some adventurers, but already after the first winter in Russia it was different. That's why many preferred to serve in France in auxiliary units.

From 1943, things are totally different. The hope of a German victory is each day smaller and most of the factories as well as cities are bombed by the allies. The resistance movements attacked more likely and more often the French collaborationists than the German army. To defend themselves these collaborationists have to be armed and the single way to get a weapon was to join a military or paramilitary formation. Only the men who joined the LVF and the Waffen-SS wanted really to fight with the German army some by real national-socialist ideas, the majority much more by simple anti-communist ideas.

In August 1944, the Vichy government had disappeared and the men who had followed the German were considered as THE ENEMY, except from the "Malgré-Nous" from the annexed lands (about 140,000 men) which had been enlisted by force since August 1942. Nevertheless the "Malgré-Nous" taken POW by the soviets were not treated differently than soldiers from the LVF or the Charlemagne and were very badly treated in the camp of Tambov.

In totality about 40,000 to 45,000 French served under the German uniform (not counting here the 140,000 requisitioned men and also not the Militia which depended from Vichy) in fighting or auxiliary units. The LVF and Waffen-SS represented grossly 15,000 to 20,000 men.
You can compare these about 45,000 men to the about 200,000 men engaged in the resistance / FFI and 500,000 men in the Free French forces (until 1943, after that they are just called French forces).

It is probably hard for today's teen living in wealth to understand the 30's and 40's in France. In WW1 and WW2 the wars were largely led on French soil, it is not the case for every country and that plays in the common conscious of a people.
During WWI France had about 6 millions losses that meant 10% of the active male population of the country (1,400,000 KIA) and the USA who helped us to victory had about 350,000 losses with 100,000 KIA for a far bigger country. Only in the late 50's the French population could reach again the number of before WW1.
During WW2 France lost 253,000 soldiers KIA (92,000-120,000 alone during the 45 days of the 1940 campaign) and 390,000 civilians killed and of course numerous mutilated. Among these civilians there were 67,000 deaths due to allied bombings and the battle in Normandy alone caused the death of 50,000 civilians. The USA for example suffered about 300,000 losses for a much bigger country.

Regards,

David

[BlackRain]

But your post also proves something, you are one of the biggest arrogant prick i ever have the displeasure to read.

How can you judge this kind of event whitout living it? (well a lot of Americans and Frenchmens are like you)

Cultural difference my ass, it's easy to say behind your computer that you and all your fellow countrymens would be heroic resistants but until someone come in your house and point a gun at your head, or until an army comes into your city and start to kills hostages randomly (the day to day life of a resistant), i suggest you to shut your big mouth.


I am sorry that I was a "prick" and posted facts about France's role in WWII.

Apparently, they must teach people in France that when they can not respond with facts:

A) Attack the messenger personally.
B) Seek to silence the messenger's freedom of speech.

You are rhetoric is illogical.

Must a person have "lived through" through the Holocaust or Waterloo or any other historical event to make a judgement regarding it.

Example: To I have to live through being burned in a fire to make a judgement that it would hurt like hell?

Americans in general would rather die that "live through" occupation. I know I would.

P.S. I know you really love me deep down inside :D

[Old300]

I think Sir Max Hastings (a former editor of the Telegraph, but also, today, a ferocious critic of American foreign policy) made a point similar to the one which started this thread. In his book on D Day, "Overlord", Hastings noted that many Norman women were raped by allied soldiers, thousands of civilians were killed in bombings on the night of the 5th, and that many British soldiers landing on the 6th hated the French more than the Germans because the former - for whom they were fighting and dying - had given so little support to them in the weeks leading up to Dunkirk in 1940. In other words, in addition to all of the almost incredible sacrifices our people made for freedom back then, we were not without blemish, nor were the people we were liberating, and our and their allegiances were therefore sometimes appropriately confused.

Incidentally, it's interesting to note the arguments above in connection with John Keegan's article in the Telegraph today. Keegan basically argues that nothing was inevitable about D-Day; that we very well could have lost WWII even after June 6; that the consequences of war are almost chaotic and messy; and that what has happened in Iraq since last April is not historically exceptional.

I'd add to those arguments this: although WWII was obvioulsy a great and wonderful victory for us, that victory came at the cost of millions of our people and, lest we forget, the enslavement of Eastern Europe and much of East Asia.

I bring this up not to malign our ancestors - who did so much good for so many people - but merely to suggest that hindsight is not always 20/20 and the history of WWII, as well as that of Iraq, is not yet completely written.

[Jehuty]

I am sorry that I was a "prick" and posted facts about France's role in WWII.

I never attacked you because you posted facts about Vichy, even though you showed only one side of history to fit your own view.


Apparently, they must teach people in France that when they can not respond with facts:

You talk to me, not France.
And i hardly responded with "opinions", i've been taught to forget them for everything concerning history.


A) Attack the messenger personally.
B) Seek to silence the messenger's freedom of speech.

You are rhetoric is illogical.

Must a person have "lived through" through the Holocaust or Waterloo or any other historical event to make a judgement regarding it.

Example: To I have to live through being burned in a fire to make a judgement that it would hurt like hell?

I'd say you logic is false.
You can't pretend to know how a Holocaust survivor feels unless you are one too, you can't pretend you will be a heroic resistant until something like an occupation happens.

And if you feel it's right to judge people who wanted to take care of their families in dark times (everything is explained on David post), good for you.
I personally decided a long time ago to don't judge my ancestors, because we don't live in the same context.


Americans in general would rather die that "live through" occupation. I know I would.

Again, big talk on an internet board.


P.S. I know you really love me deep down inside :D

I wouldn't bet on it ;)
Let's end this dicussion now, we'll just agree to disagree.

[David Lehmann]

Concerning some remarks here on WW1 ...
Although the decisive role of the USA during WWII and the cold is obvious it is IMHO not that clear concerning WW1. For the French, the American entry into the war came at the perfect moment : the fall of the Czar meant that the future role of Russia was uncertain ; and there was the bloody failure of the Nivelle offensive in the area of Chemin des Dames ; and finally the mutinies at the front gave even those most optimistic reason to doubt. The news of the American intervention raised the soldiers' moral. The USA provided also money but on the theatre of operations most of the job was done by French, British and Empire and other allies although the role of the US forces in late 1918 was very important.
The "the allied won WWI because of the USA" sounds a little bit like the American WWI Myth. Despite the massive mobilisation of the US only 150000 soldiers reached France by early 1918 and on 21 March 1918 the US Army had seven Divisions in theatre, of which only one was combat ready. This compares to 61 British and Empire, 99 French and 2 Portuguese. Ludicrously the army of the largest manufacturing country was equipped with the weapons of its exhausted allies : French artillery (37 mm TR, 75 mm Mle 1897, 155 mm GPF that gave later the US 155 mm "Long Tom" and many others), French tanks (FT17) and several British ones, mostly French planes etc. WWI also began in 1914 and ended in 1918, it didn't began in 1918. There was a lot of hard fighting between March and August 1918. In August alone the French army suffered 100,000 casualties and took 800 guns and 31,000 prisoners for example. By mid September the 1st US army was ready to attack at St Mihiel with 550,000 men in 12 Divisions - and 110,000 French soldiers attached. The French provided about half the artillery crews to support the offensive.
It is true that the threat of the US army prompted Ludendorff's gamble in 1918 and that it would have brought overwhelming force to a 1919 campaign. However, the vast majority of the fighting in 1918 was carried out by British and French forces as it had been throughout WW1. During WWI UK and Empire had about 3 millions losses (800,000 - 900,000 KIA), As already writthen, France had about 6 millions losses that meant 10% of the active male population of the country (1,400,000 KIA) and the USA who helped us to victory had about 350,000 losses with 100,000 KIA. No during WWI the US involvement did not everything. WW1 was largely fought on French soil and the country was litteraly ravaged ... and only in the late 50's the French population could reach again the number of before WW1.

Regards,

David