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2RHPZ
05-30-2004, 03:19 AM
Well, this is the story that starts flames in Czech republic in a second! Unbeliveable amount of Czechs, almost 94 per cent, support this, what some called the first ethnic cleansing in Europe. I don´t want to judge both sides because I think we cannot evaulated everythings after 60 years, without emotions which were very high at this time. Only I want is to bring a story ... that may be not really interesting to you.


Expelling Germans from Czechoslovakia, 1945-1946
An ugly chapter at the end of the war.

James Quinn

Originally posted on the THC forum in September 2002.

In 1945 and 1946 almost two million Germans were forced to abandon their homes
in Czechoslovakia and relocate to either Germany or Austria. During this
expulsion as many as 30,000 Germans may have died. This ethnic cleansing was
done by Czechs, however the USSR, UK and USA all had full knowledge of it and
gave it their tacit approval.

BACKGROUND:
There had been a sizable German minority living in Bohemia and Moravia since at
least the 17th century. During the years of the Austro-Hungarian empire the
German population enjoyed certain benefits not offered Czechs. Many Czechs came
to see the Germans as invaders of their land, oppressors of the true Slavic
inhabitants. ?Carpetbaggers?. When Czechoslovakia gained its independence in
1918 the German minority was given protection by several minority laws, however
the Czechs clearly became the dominate group.

In the 1930´s approximately 3 million Germans lived in Bohemia and Moravia,
sharing the land with 7 million Czechs. The Germans tended to live and work
within their own community and not mix a great deal with the Czechs. The German
Fascist party in Czechoslovakia (financially supported by the German Nazi party)
received up to 85% of the German votes in elections. When the Nazi German
government demanded the annexation of German areas of Czechoslovakia most German
residents of these areas supported the German demands. Most Czechs thought their
German neighbors had been disloyal citizens of Czechoslovakia and had helped
bring about the collapse of the nation.

In 1939 when Germany occupied the Czech regions of Bohemia and Moravia the
ethnic Germans in these regions once more assumed a dominate role in their area.
Germans tended to hold the seats of power and to oppress the Czech population.
Tens of thousands of Czechs were killed during the Nazi occupation for racial or
political reasons.

THE PLAN:
During the war the Czech leadership in exile formulated a radical plan for the
post war reconstruction of their nation. They reached the conclusion that any
Germans who had not been loyal to Czechoslovakia while it was an independent
nation would have to be driven out of the country upon its liberation. This was
not a secret plan. It was openly presented to the various allied leaders.
Stalin, Churchill and FDR all gave the plan their approval, however at the time
it was stated that the expulsion of the Germans would have to be done in an
"orderly and humane" fashion.

When Czechoslovakia was liberated in 1945 this plan was put into action. Two
phases of ethnic cleansing occurred, the first lasting for approximately three
months in 1945 was called the "wild transfer". The second phase, lasting through
1946 was called the "organized transfer".

WILD TRANSFER:
The "Wild Transfer" occurred during a period of time in which there was not a
strong central government in Czechoslovakia. The main pillar of order during
this time was the Soviet Red Army. The Red Army declared it was not interested
in what the Czechs did with their German neighbors and did not involve
themselves with events. This allowed local Czech citizen groups and paramilitary
organizations to treat their German neighbors in an arbitrary fashion. While
there doesn´t appear to have been much central organization to the expulsions,
all across Czechoslovakia ethnic Germans were driven from their homes and forced
to either move to Germany or Austria, or were collected into relocation camps.
By the end of 1945, Czech soldiers, security forces, and local militias had
already expelled over 700,000 Sudeten Germans to occupied Germany and Austria.
As many as 30,000 Germans died on forced marches, in disease-filled
concentration camps, in summary executions, and massacres. Though historians
disagree widely on the number of deaths a recent report from a Czech-German
Joint Commission on Historians agreed on a range from 19,000 to 30,000 dead
The commission´s figures included more than 6,000 victims of acts of violence
and 5,000 estimated suicides. (1)

The following characterized the expulsion of Germans during this period:
murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions,
rape and ****** assaults, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas,
forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian populations,
deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civil an
areas. (2)

In addition to the 700,000 forcible expulsions a further 300,000 Germans fled
their homes out of fear.

ORGANIZED TRANSFER:
Following the Wild Transfer period the Czechoslovak government asserted its
authority over the whole of the nation. Apparently at this point the excesses of
the Wild period were stopped, however the expulsion of Germans still
continued, however now in a less harsh form. During this period a further one
million Germans were forced to abandon their homes and resettle in Germany or
Austria.

POST WAR:
The issue of the German expellees became a political issue during the Cold War.
Most German expellees settled in West Germany or Austria and so fell in the
American sphere of influence. Since Czechoslovakia was in the Soviet area of
influence the conflict between the German expellees and the Czechoslovak
government took on the character of a Cold War feud. German expellee social
organizations were for a time supported by American funding. After the end of
the Cold War a dialogue developed between the German expellee community and the
new Czechoslovak government. Czechoslovak president Václav Havel publicly
apologized for the expulsions and rejected the concept of collective guilt in
any form.

This issue remains alive today as certain Germany expellees are attempting to
gain financial restitution from the current Czech government for what occurred
in 1945-1946. Some nationalist members of the Austrian government have wanted to
make the settlement of these claims necessary before the Czech Republic can join
the European Union.

(1) National Mythologies and Ethnic Cleansing: The Expulsion of Czechoslovak
Germans in 1945 by Eagle Glassheim, Central European History, vol. 33, no. 4,
pg 463.
(2) Ibid, pg 466

mack pl
05-30-2004, 05:12 AM
... that may be not really interesting to you.


Yeah, it was boring ;) :lol:

We have the same problem.We expelled Germans too, but hey, it wasnt our decision.If Erika Steinbach(and other Germans) have some problem , they should sue Russia,USA,Great Britain....whatever.........regards........

Zdarec mate :)

2RHPZ
05-30-2004, 05:35 PM
... that may be not really interesting to you.


Yeah, it was boring ;) :lol:

We have the same problem.We expelled Germans too, but hey, it wasnt our decision.If Erika Steinbach(and other Germans) have some problem , they should sue Russia,USA,Great Britain....whatever.........regards........

Zdarec mate :)

Hm, I know. But this story is not dead even for politicians. Today, bavarian PM Edmund Stoiber addressed to Czech goverment request to canceled validity of, so called, "Benes decrets" - expelling Germans as a result of WW II - otherwise "Czech republic could not be a member of EU".

mack pl
05-31-2004, 02:42 AM
... that may be not really interesting to you.


Yeah, it was boring ;) :lol:

We have the same problem.We expelled Germans too, but hey, it wasnt our decision.If Erika Steinbach(and other Germans) have some problem , they should sue Russia,USA,Great Britain....whatever.........regards........

Zdarec mate :)

Hm, I know. But this story is not dead even for politicians. Today, bavarian PM Edmund Stoiber addressed to Czech goverment request to canceled validity of, so called, "Benes decrets" - expelling Germans as a result of WW II - otherwise "Czech republic could not be a member of EU".

Yes ,I know.This **** about expelling Germans are very popular especially in Bavaria.I guess, ours governments will never say "sorry" for that coz it wasn't ours decision, only -Soviet Russia,USA and GB.This is only political BS, I think Stoiber,Steinbach and other this kind of ppl should fuzk off.

BTW dear Erika Steinbach planing to orginsed some intelectual debate(Its not the best word) about polish uprising-Warsaw 1944 :cantbeli: Stupid bitch :bash: She should go and fuzk herself :-*$

zdarec mate
ohh,about this "boring" article it was joke ;) )

2RHPZ
04-23-2005, 12:35 PM
I bring this topic back from the hell because I find good article:

Reparations to Germans and Hungarians Expelled From Czechoslovakia


As its disintegration in 1992 has proven, Czechoslovakia may have been merely an artificial multi-ethnic chimera. But it was also an industrial and military powerhouse. In the fateful 1930's, its - mainly heavy - industry was the 7th largest in the world. Even the Germans were awed by its well equipped and well trained army.

The Sudeten was a region of Czechoslovakia bordering on Germany and Austria and inhabited mainly by Germans. The new-fangled country incorporated more than 3 million Germans in what used to be Austrian Silesia. These Germans, once members of the ruling majority in the Austrian Empire - became overnight a minority subjected to subtle forms of discrimination in their new country.

Link (http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=640&cid=3&sid=8)

Cert
04-23-2005, 02:04 PM
bastards they started the war ,so they got what they deserved bla bla bla...no its BS
Yes you hit a very painfull spot of our history.
Got a german friend whose family had to move after ww2 from Sudety to Germany.But guess what, he speaks bit of czech and love to come here.I guess we do not pass so much hatered from generations to another like others......viz other threads on MP.net.
It was a tragedy.It was their land, they were mostly hard working people, and some of them felt like german czechs, but even anti-nazi had to go.Only few of them stayed.
Those parts of country got populated by czechs and now are those areas parts with highest unemployment and interestingly with most atheist population.
But no we will not dismiss Benes decrets, we all know what preceded it.And we were victims of political games.
We paid for nazi occupation dearly...6 years of terror and 40 of communist ****.......

Kitsune
04-23-2005, 09:04 PM
1. All in all 15 million Germans were expelled by Russians, Poles, Czechs and some other Eastern Europeans. They lost their home and most possessions. The largely destroyed Germany had to cope with this enormous number of refugees, the largest in modern times.

2. About 2 million of the expellees died during the process of expulsion throgh various means.

3. Since this happened largely 1946, a year after the war had ended, these dead are usually not counted as "victims of WWII". But then they are somehow.

4. Most people don't know this. Actually, its has been so downplayed that even in Germany most people don't know it anymore. As I learned it, I was completely surprised, thought it was bull**** or completely exaggerated. It's not, it's not even debated among historians. The numbers are that high.

5. With this post I do not want to offend anyone. And no, it's not some insidious attempt to start a process to regain the land for the survivors or the descendants of those who lost everything they had.

6. Perhaps this thread should be closed. Because this is actually a thread about the suffering of German civilians only. Germans may not deserve this. Please remember the horrible astrocities Germans committed everywhere. And that they started every war, while Russians, French and English are completely innocent. I hope someone else mentions these things in detail. Generally, the mentioning the suffering of Germans during WWII should be illegal unless accompanied by an detailed desciption of German astrocities of at least thrice that length.

CRAZY MERC
04-23-2005, 09:44 PM
1. All in all 15 million Germans were expelled by Russians, Poles, Czechs and some other Eastern Europeans. They lost their home and most possessions. The largely destroyed Germany had to cope with this enormous number of refugees, the largest in modern times.

2. About 2 million of the expellees died during the process of expulsion throgh various means.

3. Since this happened largely 1946, a year after the war had ended, these dead are usually not counted as "victims of WWII". But then they are somehow.

4. Most people don't know this. Actually, its has been so downplayed that even in Germany most people don't know it anymore. As I learned it, I was completely surprised, thought it was bull**** or completely exaggerated. It's not, it's not even debated among historians. The numbers are that high.

5. With this post I do not want to offend anyone. And no, it's not some insidious attempt to start a process to regain the land for the survivors or the descendants of those who lost everything they had.

6. Perhaps this thread should be closed. Because this is actually a thread about the suffering of German civilians only. Germans may not deserve this. Please remember the horrible astrocities Germans committed everywhere. And that they started every war, while Russians, French and English are completely innocent. I hope someone else mentions these things in detail. Generally, the mentioning the suffering of Germans during WWII should be illegal unless accompanied by an detailed desciption of German astrocities of at least thrice that length.

While suffering of civilians is terrible thing, Germany lost the war its started. End of the story.

Drako
04-23-2005, 11:17 PM
Although I feel sorry for all Germans who have lost their property, it had to be done and no repairations should be paid for them from eastern countries. Our contries have lost much more (destroing Warsaw alone probably costed us more than all german property in Poland was worth).

2RHPZ
04-24-2005, 05:09 AM
... Poles, Czechs and some other Eastern Europeans.

I am starting to be nervous when I read easten in connection with Czechs and Poles ...


6. Perhaps this thread should be closed. Because this is actually a thread about the suffering of German civilians only. Germans may not deserve this.

I think that discussion has been civilized so far and if it turns to flames I will immediately ask Mods to lock it, don´worry. Although I am Czech I have also little bit different and "strange" opinion on this. I don´t want to judge what was wrong and good because I didn´t live at that time.

Drako
04-24-2005, 07:02 AM
I am starting to be nervous when I read easten in connection with Czechs and Poles ...

Well, you should get used to it that Europe is divided on west and east only. Those on the west don't care that we're basically in the center of the continent. :D

Freibier
04-24-2005, 09:06 AM
In the end, you did most of the german refugees a favor.
Many got to beautiful places like bavaria, etc. and prospered there, while their old homes were in countries that were in the ****ter for 50 years afterwards. I was in czechoslovakia for teh first time in '89 (one of my grandfathers originally came from a small town called Neustadl near Marienbad) and it was sad to see everything in decay - no comparison to today

Cert
04-24-2005, 09:52 AM
In the end, you did most of the german refugees a favor.
Many got to beautiful places like bavaria, etc. and prospered there, while their old homes were in countries that were in the ****ter for 50 years afterwards. I was in czechoslovakia for teh first time in '89 (one of my grandfathers originally came from a small town called Neustadl near Marienbad) and it was sad to see everything in decay - no comparison to today
Hey I think you right, It was very hard for them first years after the war, but after that, most of them had a chance to live in democratic country with great economy.Speaking of West Germany.
What the hell is Neustadl near Marienbad?"Nove Mesto u Marianskych lazni?" :D

Freibier
04-24-2005, 10:21 AM
that are the old german names, sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea what the czech names are :D

Para
04-24-2005, 02:49 PM
Again there are two sides to this story, when the German troops over ran the Czechs the Germans started to this area into a Greater Germany by shipping many poor Germans into this area. The German troops then turned the Czechs out of their house and farms and handed them over to the new German arrivals. Many of the Germans that had been living there also turned on their former hosts and helped the Germans size property and kill the owners. When the war ended it became pay back time, it may be cruel but so where they when they thought they could not lose. Now I am going to wait for those who will bound to say two wrongs don't make a right, and that the Czechs should have forgiven them all the pain and suffering that they heaped on there former hosts.

Mamon
04-24-2005, 07:11 PM
This sort of thing occurred all throughout WWII. There were sizable minority populations in all Eastern European countries due to the Versailles Treaty. The Ukranians and Poles practiced mutual "ethnic-cleansing" along their borders and particularly in Galicia, circa 1944-1945.

Musashi
04-30-2005, 07:24 PM
... Poles, Czechs and some other Eastern Europeans.
I am starting to be nervous when I read easten in connection with Czechs and Poles ...

Kitstune, you are an intelligent man, but your knowledge from geography needs to be improved.

Let's take four points and places in Europe:
Nordkapp in Norway - 71o 12' N
Cape Matapan in Greece - 36o 23' N
Cape Roca in Portugal - 9o 27' W
Ural Mountains in Russian Federation - 60o E
After dividing of the coordinates the centre of Europe would be situated in the western Belarus, 40 km eastwards from the city of Grodno (Gorodno), about 50 km from the Polish border. I painted the red dot there. Exactly 53o 48' N and 24o 43' E.

http://republika.pl/kfialkowski/images/europe1.jpg

There is a "Polish week" in German schools now and I have seen a few interviews with German students. Most of them don't know what is a name of capital of Poland and one of them claimed Poland had been established 15 years ago :roll:


1. All in all 15 million Germans were expelled by Russians, Poles, Czechs and some other Eastern Europeans. They lost their home and most possessions. The largely destroyed Germany had to cope with this enormous number of refugees, the largest in modern times.
Not so fast, mein Freund. Do you claim all of those Germans were expelled? I am just checking out if you are joking or not.
You should know many of the Germans living in Poland escaped seeing what Soviet soldiers had been doing to them. I remember a program about what happened in one of German villages in Eastern Prussia. It had been seized by the Soviet troops and German Army regained it for short then. German mass media brought up what happened there. It is not a surprise the German population was escaping from these territories en masse. Besides many of them didn't have enough courage (what is not a surprise again) to live with Poles together in these territories. It's true many of them were expelled, but it's just selective true. It's really hard to estimate what number of people escaped and what number of them was expelled.
I live in a small town 19 km from the German border. There are many ethnic Germans in my town (most of them has already died anyway) and a large group of them became real Polish fundamentalists. Some of them would not be interested to see any German even on a picture.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
Chris

Hessian
05-01-2005, 03:21 AM
It was a terrible event, I have spoken to people who were there at the time. It leaves a black spot on Czech history and the decree by Alexander Dubcek hurts his legacy.

The murder of woman, children and soldiers who have surrendered is pathetic by any country or person.

Musashi
05-01-2005, 06:07 AM
It was a terrible event, I have spoken to people who were there at the time. It leaves a black spot on Czech history and the decree by Alexander Dubcek hurts his legacy.

The murder of woman, children and soldiers who have surrendered is pathetic by any country or person.
AFAIK it was signed by Edi Benes. However IIRC he did not order to kill anybody...

Hessian
05-01-2005, 06:35 AM
I stand corrected it was Benes, thank you... and this decree was a tragedy for thousands.

Regards,
Hessian

martinexsquaddie
05-03-2005, 05:18 PM
it was a war crime but also unliklely to have been stoped doubt the rest of europe gave a thought to the suffering of germans fro a fair few years after the war :(

Kitsune
05-03-2005, 09:12 PM
@Musashi:

1) The number 15 million is no joke, I am afraid.

2) The "Eastern Europe" thing. I know the geography of Europe more or less. (More more than less I would say). But if my terminology concerning "East" and "West" Europe is concerned, is been criticized, I am guilty as charged. I have to admit, that I still divide Europe in two parts: West and East, with no "Middle" Europe. And the dividing line between two is the former Iron Curtain...
That makes Germany a West European nation (well the part of it that counts ;) ), Poland an East-European one...Finland is West-European again...ehem. OK. That can be attacked, and perhaps rightly so.
But I am not the only one, nor the first, who does subordinate strict geographical consideration to other ones (do you know where the West-Indian Islands are located?)

From now on, I promise trying getting used to see Poland as the center and fulcrum of Europe.



May take me some time, though. I am an old dog, who doesn't like to learn new tricks... :|

2RHPZ
05-11-2005, 04:13 AM
Expulsion of Czech Germans: bitter memories and disrupted relations

09-05-2005] By Martin Mikule, Brian Kenety


In recent days Czech towns have been commemorating the end of the Second World War. But among the events of 60 years ago that many prefer not to be reminded of, is the expulsion of the German minority (the so called Sudeten Germans) from Czechoslovakia. The expulsion was the culmination of the clash between Czechs and Germans in the lands of Bohemia and Moravia, which had erupted in such a brutal way during the German occupation. But now even 60 years after the war this event still represents a sensitive issue in Czech public life.

Link (http://www.radio.cz/en/issue/66308)

marktigger
05-11-2005, 04:50 AM
well my answer is so what the Germans started a war of aggression to liberate ethnic Germans. Then 60 years on their descendants are trying to reclaim posessions their ancestors forfitted by supporting the loosing side.
Thats History for you. BTW how many human rights were broken by Germans in countries they occupied?

Musashi
05-11-2005, 07:44 AM
1) The number 15 million is no joke, I am afraid.

Many of them were expelled, but many left these lands voluntarily. It happened even during the war, when Soviet troops were taking these lands. Many German civilians panicked and were retreating westwards. After the war many Germans did not have courage to live with Poles, Russians and Czechs together.
I don't think that statement "15 million of Germans left the German lands which were lost in 1945" would be a joke.
My point is clear - I am against acknowledging the whole 15 million as the people who were expelled, because it's a crap. The same about Poles who lived in the part of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania, which belonged to Poland before WW II. It's hard to estimate if 80% or 90% of them were expelled, but SOME of them left those lands voluntarily. Comparing to Germans they did not need to escape from the Soviet offensives and soldiers, so the number of the Poles who left these lands voluntarily is in percentage terms less.

Dexx
05-11-2005, 03:03 PM
Musashi, the Germans who lived there fled because of the Russian soldiers and the rumors of rape. You have to admit that you won't stay somewhere where there is a chance to get raped as a female.

You might get furious but I have an opinion on the Benec Decrets (sp?). I think that those laws should be revoked immediately. Not because it is directed against Germany, but because those kinds of law have no meaning in todays Europe that should come closer together. They are a thorne in the flesh of Europe. Just to make it clear: If Croatia had similar laws directed against Serbs, they shouldn't be accepted into the EU. The whole EU is about peaceful coexistance, about integration and not expuslion.