Handgun procurement [Archive]

JTAR7242

11-14-2005, 04:39 PM

Must be American made, full sized, reasonably priced and 9mm.

Don't argue, these are the restrictions emplaced by a potential employer. Payrate is significant enough to warrant buying a new gun, since my German .40 USP does not qualify. I've been thinking about this pretty seriously, as the money is absurdly good for what they want me to do.

No Beretta M92s, I hate those things

tehllama

11-14-2005, 04:45 PM

Well, if P226's don't count (or SigPro 2340)

--edited for stupidity--

Flying Dutchman

11-14-2005, 05:22 PM

Well, if P226's don't count (or SigPro 2340)

Any High Power should work fine.

nvm, bad reply

CQB_Operator

11-14-2005, 05:36 PM

Frens

11-14-2005, 05:54 PM

Must be American made
I don't have experience with american 9mm handguns but IMO you should consider a Browning HP. of course I have one and I'm very proud of it: simple and reliable. don't forget that the 1911 is based on Mr Browning's project ;)

Hydro

11-14-2005, 06:35 PM

Apologies if this seems a stupid question, but by American made, do you mean the company must have a manufacturing facility in the US, or it must be an American company through and through?

If the former, then the FN-Browning Hi-Power. I believe you can get it in a variety of flavours to suit your needs, Double Action, Single Action etc.

sickofpretenders

11-14-2005, 06:37 PM

Check out this article. He makes 9mm weapons also The maker is one of the top pistol shots in the word. If your interested and need his contact details PM me. Sorry there are no pics.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685769

CMEPTb

11-14-2005, 06:38 PM

S&W Model 910??? http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=14706&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15712
Sringfield-armory 1911 9mm luger http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-fs.shtml
Colt 1911 9mm Luger

Springfield frames are produced in Imbel (Brazil?). Glocks are assembled in Smyrna, Georgia...does that count?

If not, the only reasonably priced alternative is going to be S&W.

nognig

11-14-2005, 06:39 PM

Jeeze, you are really limiting yourself with "American made".

I thought S&W had a newer 9mm out that got pretty good reviews. That's all I can really think of (since you don't want a Beretta). Wait, isn't Beretta Italian?

NN

LtVacan

11-14-2005, 07:01 PM

Springfield Armory XD9. You can get it with 4" or 5" barrel (or 3", but that isn't full-sized). Very rugged American made 9mm pistol.

Seiran

11-14-2005, 07:35 PM

Jeeze, you are really limiting yourself with "American made".

Not his choice mate. Stips of the potential employer.

Glass2

11-14-2005, 08:24 PM

Interesting requirement. I would think reliability to be a more sound common sense parameter, but what do I know... I can't imagine "American made" saves them enough favor to outweigh reliability when it comes to insurance payouts. But, I digress...

I've heard nothing bad about the Springfield XD and enough good to convince me that it is worthy of consideration. That is probably the route I'd go if a US-assembled Glock wasn't an option.

Its interesting that your potential employer finds "US made" a bigger concern than the US government does, considering our recent contracts with Sig and HK (both of which would be my choice over the XD and probably the Glock).

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favor of supporting the US economy first, but in regards to a handgun I'll stake my life on, I'll go with whoever makes the most reliable.

BadKarma26

11-14-2005, 08:44 PM

I really hated the grip of the sig P226 (9mm). The grip of the USP (9mm) is very comfortable and I got much closer controlled pair shots with it than the sig.

LtVacan

11-14-2005, 09:16 PM

Actually, Sig P229 and P239 pistols are made in New Hampshire and Berettas in Maryland. Probably some others I'm forgetting right now.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-14-2005, 09:49 PM

berretta handguns are made in the US...was thinking of buying a J960500 in .40 S&W, but ive never fired one/never heard anything good or bad about them...

Aerosoul

11-14-2005, 10:18 PM

Springfield Armory XD line...

StukaJr

11-14-2005, 10:44 PM

Springfield frames are produced in Imbel (Brazil?). Glocks are assembled in Smyrna, Georgia...does that count?

If not, the only reasonably priced alternative is going to be S&W.

I think as long as the frame stamped with Geneseo, IL USA that's all that matters. Otherwise, I'd recomend CZ75B in hopes that they would miss giant "Made in Chech Republic" on its frame :D With that said, however, I still read in regards to the XD's as "imported" by Springfield - plus, it does have "Springfield Armory Croatia" in its crest on the top of the slide. Is XD considered US Made now?

But if a Full Frame, American Made are the main two requirements - I guess I'd give a "x2" on a 1911 in 9mm is a true bet, Colt or Springfield Armory... Probably would command more respect with your new employers then any Tuppawear :D Plus, you probably have more experience handling a 1911.

Much respect and good luck with the gig!

RomanS

11-14-2005, 10:59 PM

Kimber in .45
f 9mm

CMEPTb

11-14-2005, 11:15 PM

I still read in regards to the XD's as "imported" by Springfield - plus, it does have "Springfield Armory Croatia" in its crest on the top of the slide. Is XD considered US Made now?

He can always get a used HS2000 (for half the price of an XD) and glue a Springfield sticker on it.

;)

AmericanImperialist

11-14-2005, 11:22 PM

another vote for the XD

Seraphim

11-14-2005, 11:56 PM

How come no one has mentioned Ruger...inexpensive and reliable.

No Sig or HK, lets face it...your better off having a whistle and a flashlight.

Lanton

11-15-2005, 12:09 AM

Sig 9mm
Browning HP
HK USP 9mm

Seraphim

11-15-2005, 12:49 AM

Sig 9mm
Browning HP
HK USP 9mm

Sure sucks that you cant read.

FallenAngel

11-15-2005, 03:24 AM

others have made the point.

several guns are literally "made in America" even if they were designed by a foriegn company. (Certain Sigs, Glocks, Walthers, Berettas...)

Guns like the XD and HPs are actually produced overseas.

Some more specific idea of what "made in America" means to your employer might be helpful.

TacoDelRio

11-15-2005, 03:35 AM

How come no one has mentioned Ruger...inexpensive and reliable.

No Sig or HK, lets face it...your better off having a whistle and a flashlight.

x2

Ruger makes good guns. I like their P90. You can get the P89 in 9mm, that's the base model, sorta.

sergey31

11-15-2005, 07:24 AM

http://www.defensereview.com/stories/swmp/IACP_SWMP_8.JPG

Herrmannek

11-15-2005, 08:11 AM

If it must be big framed, fully made and designed in America, price is a factor, and and you don't need to shot more than 10000 rounds from it consider this http://www.mkssupply.com/ So called Poor man's Glock... Little pun iontended :)
Bah i see you are from California, forget what I said...I think blow back pistols made of ZnAl aren't legit in California... :)

sergey31

11-15-2005, 08:17 AM

rofl ...............................

Seraphim

11-15-2005, 08:18 AM

But the SW MP isnt out yet...Man they need to get rid of that ugly beavertail of a monster.

sergey31

11-15-2005, 08:25 AM

I think it looks O.K but still uglier then Glock
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson//upload/images/firearms/209000_large.jpg

JoaMei

11-15-2005, 09:48 AM

What is the exact meaning of US made, the exact definition?

Geezah

11-15-2005, 10:10 AM

Actually, Sig P229 and P239 pistols are made in New Hampshire

I think it's the slide that's made in NH and the frame that's made overseas or the other way round, but it's not completely American.

Anyway, last time he asked about handguns, he said he wasn't interested in anything that didn't have a manual safety, so that's pretty much the SIG line out of the way.

Freibier

11-15-2005, 11:45 AM

The only american 9mm Handguns I would consider are S&W 686 or Ruger GP100 in .357 ;)

Glass2

11-15-2005, 08:06 PM

I think its a moot point until JTAR7242 expands a bit on the question concerning what exactly American-made entails.

StukaJr

11-15-2005, 09:59 PM

There is a difference between "Made in America" and "Made it into America" :D

JoaMei

11-16-2005, 03:33 AM

By the way, why is a european Caliber like 9mm allowed but the rest has to be american.
What if one of the machines used for manufacturing the weapon uses metric system? p-)

Lanton

11-16-2005, 03:39 AM

Sure sucks that you cant read.

You obviously haven't had much shooting-time with Sig's and HK's have you. There's a reason why the SAS goes with the Browning HP 9mm, Sig 9mm and HK 9mm.

Seraphim

11-16-2005, 04:55 AM

You obviously haven't had much shooting-time with Sig's and HK's have you. There's a reason why the SAS goes with the Browning HP 9mm, Sig 9mm and HK 9mm.

Spend a little more time on the forum before you open your pie hole. :bash:

And I'll re-emphasize.....sure sucks that you cant read or have a reading comprehension of a 8year old.

Lanton

11-16-2005, 06:30 AM

Spend a little more time on the forum before you open your pie hole. :bash:

And I'll re-emphasize.....sure sucks that you cant read or have a reading comprehension of a 8year old.

'have THE reading comprehension SKILLS of AN 8-year old'.

Seraphim

11-16-2005, 07:52 AM

'have THE reading comprehension SKILLS of AN 8-year old'.

Oops, because obvously my posts are being marked by english profs for grammar.

Its still no excuse for your piss poor reading comprehension SKILLS

LoTek

11-16-2005, 09:32 AM

If you go by the definition of MADE IN AMERICA:

Beretta 92FS
S&W 990L
Springfield Armory XD

Geezah

11-16-2005, 09:35 AM

If you go by the definition of MADE IN AMERICA:

Beretta 92FS
S&W 990L
Springfield Armory XD

I thought Beretta were Italian;)

Freibier

11-16-2005, 09:37 AM

Don't they have a factory in ze US?

ramy

11-17-2005, 08:01 PM

I would go for a Springfield Armory XD

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-18-2005, 01:42 AM

I was told by my concealed handgun instructor (I never actually got the license cuz I'm a jackass, but thats another story entirely) that the "ballistics" testing for a .40 and .45 were exactly the same.

I have no clue what that meant exactly, so I would like to pose the question to all members of the forum.

.40 vs. .45, statements/opinions/information/links...etc...how do they match against each other...?

TacoDelRio

11-18-2005, 02:36 AM

sergey31

11-18-2005, 02:38 AM

Ballistics can be similar depending on bullet weight of each caliber.
.40S&W ends at 180 gr or so and .45 ACP ends in 230gr maximum but .45 can also be at 185gr in which case ballistic will be similar and .45 will retain it's bigger size and more energy with +P ammo.
There's much more to it than what I wrote.

StukaJr

11-18-2005, 03:26 AM

I thought that the original 180 grain .40S&W has a similar muzzle velocity to that of the 230 grain .45ACP? Even if .40 is a little higher, it's only marginal. In the later (lighter) versions of the round like 165 and 155 grain, the velocity reaches and latter supercedes the muzzle velocity that of a regular pressure 9mm Para in 124 and 115 grain respectively...

That's all pig Latin, since the instructor did not specify the rounds or you weren't listening/comprehending... Sure, Corvette is similar to the Dodge Viper... Ahhuummm... Maybe the relation of the powder charge to the bullet weight is the same ratio?

Ballistic performance could be similar between .45 and .40 but only to the naked eye - I believe both rounds with the heaviest bullets have trouble penetrating cover like car doors. Also, Ballistics are like Gritz - don't serve them plain, put some salt and pepper, shuffle the facts and variables until they prove what you want. It's easy enough to fudge, even before terminal ballistics get involved.

tehllama

11-18-2005, 03:34 AM

Well, for any CCW, I don't see the added distance of the .40 as a huge advantage, though you should get beter penetration.

Ballistics are terribly easy to fudge, and by no means the .40 a better up-close-and-personal round than the .45, but it will certainly work, but with a spunky .40 round, you can do plenty.

sergey31

11-18-2005, 03:50 AM

I thought that the original 180 grain .40S&W has a similar muzzle velocity to that of the 230 grain .45ACP? Even if .40 is a little higher, it's only marginal. In the later (lighter) versions of the round like 165 and 155 grain, the velocity reaches and latter supercedes the muzzle velocity that of a regular pressure 9mm Para in 124 and 115 grain respectively...

.40 S&W came from 10mm by making the cartridge shorter.
.40 operates at the same pressure as 9mm (35,000 cup) .45 APC is 21,000 and 23,000 with +P.
230gr 45ACP is a subsonic cartridge while 180gr .40S&W is not 830 fps vs 1100.
There are .45ACP in 165gr +P with velocity of 1225 fps mind you that even with this velocity it still operates at 12,000 less pressure then .40S&W

StukaJr

11-18-2005, 04:05 AM

Ummmm... this is the info I got:

.40 Short & Wimpy :D

Muzzle velocity
8.7 g (135 Gr) Full Metal Jacket: 400 m/s (1310 ft/s)
11.6 g (180 Gr) Full Metal Jacket: 290 m/s (950 ft/s)

Still, technically Sub-Sonic... Of course, the different velocities often come from different guns used to achieve the tests.

sergey31

11-18-2005, 04:27 AM

11.6 g (180 Gr) Full Metal Jacket: 290 m/s (950 ft/s)

You're right, 180gr in .40S&W lacks severely behind .45 while still operating at a much higher pressure. It begins to shine in it's speed at very light load like 135gr etc.
I do think that most tests were done with barrel length of less then 5"

Majority of Law enforcement issue 165gr ammo in .40

StukaJr

11-18-2005, 04:32 AM

And finally, on the pressure... The SAAMI specs are not as easy to compare as just two numbers - otherwise, explain how the SAAMI pressure in a 12 gauge shotgun is only about one third that of the 9mm or .40S&W?
Obviously, the size of the propellant charge, the width of the bore matter greately as the gasses expand - since the gunpowder is propellant and does not burn up its entire charge all at once. Since the bore of the .45 is wider, the maximum peak in the pressure is significantly less - so I'm not quite sure what we are arguing about :D
Captain Morgan is not aiding me in this conversation... I guess I'm trying to state that the SAAMI pressure does not equate the ammount of propellant charge to propel the projectile. But I take it the lower pressure is better for the longevity of the parts, amongst the other things...

sergey31

11-18-2005, 04:38 AM

I tell you what, you wan to know about the pressure of those two rounds in the same weight category?
It's very easy to find out with first hand experience.

Shoot two gun of the same make with same barrel length in .40 and .45 and you will find out what I'm talking about.

BTW .40 S&W does not have SAAMI +P category, it already operates at it's maximum pressure while regular .45 does not.

StukaJr

11-18-2005, 04:48 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of uncrimming two cartridges by the same maker and weighing the ammount of powder and doing little bastard math... Or I could just look up manufacturer's specs when I'm not so toasted... Actually, both are out right now :D

I personally think you misunderstood me - I simply stated that the same charge set off in a larger space head will generate less pressure...

Once again, 12ga shotgun generates Max 12 K PSI while .45 ACP spikes at 21 K cup - the pressure difference alone implies that 12 ga generates third less power, kick whatever IF I only state the pressure. .45 Colt opperates at half the pressure of .45 ACP - that still means nothing as everybody knows which one bruises more.

I think we are comparing the apples and oranges, once again... :)

Durandal

11-18-2005, 05:07 AM

Bullets kill...

That's all that is really relevant. p-)

sergey31

11-18-2005, 06:35 AM

Since we were talking about the difference in cup pressure that is why I offered you to try out my experiment.
From my own personal experience the higher pistol cartridge pressure is- The more the handgun will recoil with the same barrel length..... And I'm mainly talking about service pistol calibers.
The most recoil in service cartridge I've experienced is .357 Mag and .357SIG followed by .40 and .45ACP is nearly equal to 9mm while 9mm +P+ is pretty close if not the same as .357SIG
.40S&W has a faster & snappier recoil then .45 which is more softer push.

BTW I've shot friends Ruger revolver in .45 COLT and it was like shooting underpowered .38 recoil wise. But then again there are HOT .45 COLT loads that will make you hold on to that gun with more attention. I have Winchester 94 (16" BBL) lever action in .45COLT and some Buffalo Bore 300gr ammo (talk about recoil).

Jippo

11-18-2005, 09:14 AM

Since we were talking about the difference in cup pressure that is why I offered you to try out my experiment.
From my own personal experience the higher pistol cartridge pressure is- The more the handgun will recoil with the same barrel length..... And I'm mainly talking about service pistol calibers.

Recoil is quite simple equation. Total recoil force is the same as kinetic energy of the round at muzzle. Gases escaping the barrel also cause recoil but their effect is radically smaller than the projectiles (relative to weight of the powder vs. weight of the projectile), thus it is possible to get rough relative value by looking at the projectile kinetic energy only.

E(k)=MV²

Perceived recoil depends also on other things like the weight of the weapon, weight of the moving masses on semi- and automatic guns, barrel time of the projectile, etc. Weight of the weapon and barrel time of the projectile are the most determining factors for the initial impulse along with the E(k).

-jippo

Freibier

11-18-2005, 10:12 AM

It's E(k)=MV²/2 ;)

sergey31

11-18-2005, 10:27 AM

Recoil is quite simple equation. Total recoil force is the same as kinetic energy of the round at muzzle. Gases escaping the barrel also cause recoil but their effect is radically smaller than the projectiles (relative to weight of the powder vs. weight of the projectile), thus it is possible to get rough relative value by looking at the projectile kinetic energy only.

E(k)=MV²

Perceived recoil depends also on other things like the weight of the weapon, weight of the moving masses on semi- and automatic guns, barrel time of the projectile, etc. Weight of the weapon and barrel time of the projectile are the most determining factors for the initial impulse along with the E(k).

-jippo

Take two of the same/similar handguns (like Sig Sauer or Glock).... One chambered in .45ACP and the other in .357SIG.
.45 in 230gr and 357SIG in 125gr shoot them both and tell me what you think then.
I can actually bet $ on this one.

ed316

11-18-2005, 10:41 AM

Both are good calibers, it comes down to your preference.

Jippo

11-18-2005, 11:00 AM

It's E(k)=MV²/2 ;)

So it is, was writing very fast. :) Sorry about that. :)

-jippo

Jippo

11-18-2005, 11:10 AM

Take two of the same/similar handguns (like Sig Sauer or Glock).... One chambered in .45ACP and the other in .357SIG.
.45 in 230gr and 357SIG in 125gr shoot them both and tell me what you think then.
I can actually bet $ on this one.

No need to bet anything, all really depends on the matters I written. Pressure is part of the recoil as in escaping gas in the muzzle, as it has mass too, but it is not nearly the most important part.

Compare .223 and 7.62 in carbine for instance. .223 has very high pressure still at the muzzle, but significantly less recoil. Reason is that .223 also has only 2/3's of the kinetic energy [E(k)] of the 7,62x39.

-jippo

sergey31

11-18-2005, 11:24 AM

............edit

sergey31

11-18-2005, 11:36 AM

Cartridge Caliber/mm Bullet mass (g) Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy (joules)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Centerfire Hornet .22 3.0 g 820 m/sec 2,690 fps 1,009 joules
Remington NATO .223/5.56mm 3.6 g 1,006 m/sec 3,301 fps 1,822 joules
M1 Carbine .30 7.1 g 607 m/sec 1,991 fps 1,308 joules
Winchester .30-30 9.7 g 728 m/sec 2,388 fps 2,560 joules
Soviet AK-47, 7.62mm 8.0 g 715 m/sec 2,346 fps 2,045 joules
Lee-Enfield .303 11.7 g 770 m/sec 2,526 fps 3,469 joules
Winchester,NATO,FN .308/7.62x51mm 11.7 g 3,744 joules
Winchester .458 Magnum 33.0 g 643 m/sec 2,110 fps 6,822 joules (1)
Dakota .450 Magnum 32.4 g 747 m/sec 2,451 fps 9,040 joules (2)
Weatherby .460 Magnum 32.4 g 793 m/sec 2,602 fps 10,187 joules (3)
Browning MG .50 caliber 46.7 g 857 m/sec 2,812 fps 17,149 joules (4)

I never found AK 47/SKS or AR 15 or even Kel Tec SU 16(which is nearly half the weight of AR) to be any major difference in recoil at all.
Handguns are totally different story especial when shooting with one hand and fast follow up shots.

BTW .223 has the same SAAMI cup pressure as standard military 7.62x39mm if not less.
5.6NATO has only 8,000 more - not that big of a deal in rifle especially when you consider their cartidge weight.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-18-2005, 01:34 PM

wow great info everyone, geez especially stuka and sergey, that was amazing. this is probably the best Q&A post ive ever had by far...

ok ok ok i will admit i asked a "loaded" question though...

i've fired a glock (and sig, the sig was not near as bad) in .40S&W and a Colt 1911 in .45ACP...

this is just me of course...but the .40 kicked like a BEAST! compared to the .45 and i was kind of always wondering if this had anything to do with the actual speed/velocity of the rounds (of course different weapons taken into account). of course that was me assuming that it was solely b/c the .40 was a quicker round than the .45, but it seems there is more to it than that. plus the 1911 seemed to be a bit more "top heavy" as i say, which i actually prefer b/c it allows for greater control when firing multiple rounds...

put it this way, i fired a glock (not sure of the model number but it was some where b/n the full size and the compact?) in .40S&W several times including different angles with my hand (sideways, no need to try to sound scientific here, ha) and it has a beasty recoil. i fired 50 rounds through .45 for CHL (which like i said i never got, im a jackass) and i felt like i could shoot another 50+ rounds, no biggie...

but the .40 did seem to be substantially more accurate, but a good portion of this is due to shooter err im sure.

BadKarma26

11-18-2005, 02:20 PM

yah same here. the .40s ive fired all pretty "snappy" (for lack of a better description) the 45s are a little easier to control IMO

Jippo

11-18-2005, 05:33 PM

I never found AK 47/SKS or AR 15 or even Kel Tec SU 16(which is nearly half the weight of AR) to be any major difference in recoil at all.

Then I can't really help you, can I?

If you can't find any difference in recoil, take a timer with you next time you go on range. The difference should be pretty obvious.

But in the mean time, Newtonian Physics still remain more or less world standard...

-jippo

Seraphim

11-18-2005, 05:49 PM

Take two of the same/similar handguns (like Sig Sauer or Glock).... One chambered in .45ACP and the other in .357SIG.
.45 in 230gr and 357SIG in 125gr shoot them both and tell me what you think then.
I can actually bet $ on this one.

I dont think a Sig and Glock are similiar...especially if your talking about the Sig Classic full size. Only way to compare is with the exact same pistol with the same ammo from the same box.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-18-2005, 06:47 PM

hey karma what was the make of the .40's you fired?

sergey31

11-18-2005, 08:29 PM

I dont think a Sig and Glock are similiar...especially if your talking about the Sig Classic full size. Only way to compare is with the exact same pistol with the same ammo from the same box.

I meant two Glock in different caliber or two Sigs not Glock compared to Sig.
Both of those manufacturers offer all service calibers.

Seraphim

11-18-2005, 09:09 PM

I meant two Glock in different caliber or two Sigs not Glock compared to Sig.
Both of those manufacturers offer all service calibers.

Gotcha

1234567890

BadKarma26

11-18-2005, 09:50 PM

hey karma what was the make of the .40's you fired?

HK USP and Sig P2XX?

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-18-2005, 11:44 PM

how is the USP, it looks like a fiiiiiiiiiiine weapon, German made, cant go wrong, especially HK, but are they as smooth as they look? just too damn pricey...

Seraphim

11-19-2005, 01:53 AM

how is the USP, it looks like a fiiiiiiiiiiine weapon, German made, cant go wrong, especially HK, but are they as smooth as they look? just too damn pricey...

Oh its worth every penny.

BadKarma26

11-19-2005, 02:09 AM

Oh its worth every penny.

i enjoyed it a lot but id rather have it in 9mm.

crinkler

11-19-2005, 04:02 AM

dislike the .40, .45 or 9mm are the only choices for me. 9mm if you need high cap 45 if you need reliable power.

not sure why but hate the recoil on the .40, as bad karma posted it is a little too snappy for my taste.

For a CCW I would go 9mm, higher cap smaller package.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-19-2005, 04:22 PM

sergey31

11-20-2005, 02:34 AM

yeah...9mm is higher cap but i dunno i just like to line up a 9mm Para, .40S&W, and a .45ACP and im like hhmmm there is SUCH a huge difference, but i have little to no experience with 9mm...it just seems (to me) that a .45 would just put someone from standing to right on there ass in a manner of a few secs.

does anyone know what branches of police, govt agencies and so forth that use .357SIG?

No service handgun cartridge will put someone on their ass, unless he/she on the receiving end is in so much fear that he/she falls because of the shock & panic.
Texas DPS, Virginia State Police and Secret Service that I know use .357SIG
There are quite a few police departments across the country that switched from 9mm to. 357SIG. But I haven’t heard of any agency switching to this round from .40 or .45

Jippo

11-20-2005, 05:26 AM

I never found AK 47/SKS or AR 15 or even Kel Tec SU 16(which is nearly half the weight of AR) to be any major difference in recoil at all.
Handguns are totally different story especial when shooting with one hand and fast follow up shots.

BTW .223 has the same SAAMI cup pressure as standard military 7.62x39mm if not less.
5.6NATO has only 8,000 more - not that big of a deal in rifle especially when you consider their cartidge weight.

Come on, did I say carbine length rifles? Pressure at the muzzle? etc... Read carefully.

And if you are unable to notice a clear difference in recoil, I can not help you. Other than that it is simple highschool Newtonian physics that apply to everything, even shooting. Trust me I know what I talk about.

-jippo

sergey31

11-20-2005, 06:37 AM

Come on, did I say carbine length rifles? Pressure at the muzzle? etc... Read carefully.

And if you are unable to notice a clear difference in recoil, I can not help you. Other than that it is simple highschool Newtonian physics that apply to everything, even shooting. Trust me I know what I talk about.

-jippo

This is what you said

Compare .223 and 7.62 in carbine for instance. .223 has very high pressure still at the muzzle, but significantly less recoil. Reason is that .223 also has only 2/3's of the kinetic energy [E(k)] of the 7,62x39.

No need to help me with this as I know what I'm talking as well.
Both rounds have high pressure at the muzzle, .223 is nearly identical as "standard" military 7.62x39mm. As a matter of fact military 7.62x39mm is 52,000 cup vs 50,000 for .223 per SAAMI specs. You weren't talking about 5.56x45 so I'll leave it out.
Like I mention before there is no "SIGNIFICANT" recoil between AK and M16. I'm not sure what guns you have been firing but the recoil between them is anything but "significant".
And there are many published reports of kinetic energy between those two rounds or "joules". Each report will vary but I would not believe that its as much as 2/3's.
here's one.

Remington NATO .223/5.56mm 3.6 g 1,006 m/sec 3,301 fps 1,822 joules
Soviet AK-47, 7.62mm 8.0 g 715 m/sec 2,346 fps 2,045 joules

The thing to remember is that 7.62x39mm operates at the similar cartridge pressure while having double the bullet weight and case volume.
You can't compare rifle cartridges to handguns, apples and oranges. Different BBL, platform, weight etc etc.

Jippo

11-20-2005, 07:47 AM

And there are many published reports of kinetic energy between those two rounds or "joules". Each report will vary but I would not believe that its as much as 2/3's.

Hint: carbine has much less V(0) than long rifle. Also in carbine barrel powder hasn't got enough time to fully burn resulting higher pressure at the muzzle. Maximum pressure of a cartridge is a different animal, and doesn't affect recoil that much at all (even though you claim otherwise).

High gas pressure at the muzzle and low initial recoil impulse allows AR-15 carnines to be modified as virtually recoilles rifles with the help of muzzle brake/compensator.

The thing to remember is that 7.62x39mm operates at the similar cartridge pressure while having double the bullet weight and case volume.
You can't compare rifle cartridges to handguns, apples and oranges. Different BBL, platform, weight etc etc.

I wasn't comparing rifle cartridges to pistol cartridges, was I? But really it wouldn't matter if I were: physics remain the same. If you really want to learn about recoil effects, there is plenty to read online and in libraries.

-jippo

StukaJr

11-20-2005, 07:57 AM

Well, I agree with Sergey on something for once :)

While difference between 7.62x39 vs .223 maybe "significant" to the first time "OMFG! I shoot gun" shooters, it's hardly noticeble/easily adjustable by anybody with repeated range experience. I'd leave "significant" to the comparissons between full size rifle and assault rifle cartridges, not when comparing the two intermidiate ones. It's certainly nice to have almost no recoil when dealing with intermidiate 5.56/5.45 chambered weapons, but not as nice when you have no assurence those super sonic bullets are all of a sudden incapable with dealing with about a half of situations. Purely for fun shooting activities, I'd pick an AKM as a shooter since at least it feels like shooting.

There is a good reason why Russian Special forces request/use exlussively the 7.62x39mm chambered weapons.

And finally, are we talking about the Cartridges in the pure form, or the cartridges fired out of particular weapons? 7.62 out of the AKM generates a fraction of the recoil of the SKS. AR-15 generates very little recoil but there are plenty of weapons with a high kick in .223

Jippo

11-20-2005, 08:07 AM

StukaJr

11-20-2005, 08:08 AM

Hint: carbine has much less V(0) than long rifle. Also in carbine barrel powder hasn't got enough time to fully burn resulting higher pressure at the muzzle. Maximum pressure of a cartridge is a different animal, and doesn't affect recoil that much at all (even though you claim otherwise).

High gas pressure at the muzzle and low initial recoil impulse allows AR-15 carnines to be modified as virtually recoilles rifles with the help of muzzle brake/compensator.

I'd worry about gas pressure at the muzzle if I were to BBQ someone with a muzzle blast... I'd more worry about the velocity of the projectile and its weight, how it retains its velocity in counteracting force or penetrating insignificant barriers while maintaining its stability.

AR-15 system also blows much of the gasses back into the rifle... Comparing AR-15 and AK-74, I don't see any difference in the actual recoil... If the AR-15 is chambered for anything but the Super Long .22 - the recoiless rifle comment is pure nonsense.

StukaJr

11-20-2005, 08:17 AM

I shoot +10k rounds per year, and have a quite long experience with guns of all types up to 125mm cannon. :) I have also studied ballistics and weapons a bit on my own. You may verify what I said by simply reading about internal ballistics and down to earth weapons physics.

-jippo

It's not worth a discussion when you spend more time on explaining why you right, then actually having a discussion.

We are also in different time zones - Good night :)

sergey31

11-20-2005, 08:18 AM

Hint: carbine has much less V(0) than long rifle. Also in carbine barrel powder hasn't got enough time to fully burn resulting higher pressure at the muzzle. Maximum pressure of a cartridge is a different animal, and doesn't affect recoil that much at all (even though you claim otherwise).

SKS is considered as a carbine while it has 4" longer barrel then AK 47.
No, actually go back and read my example of different handgun tests, I know anyone who has experience with this will agree with me.

.357SIG operates at 40,000 pressure cup while .45ACP is at 21,000... While .45 has 230 gr and bigger casing when compared with .357SIG with 125gr 9mm bullet inside .40 S&W casing
Anyone who shot these two cartridges know which recoils MUCH more from the same/similar platform.
There goes you theory and physics out the window.

You are right, there is plenty of material available on the web, read up BETTER yet go and shoot to find out first hand.

Jippo

11-20-2005, 08:29 AM

I'd worry about gas pressure at the muzzle if I were to BBQ someone with a muzzle blast... I'd more worry about the velocity of the projectile and its weight, how it retains its velocity in counteracting force or penetrating insignificant barriers while maintaining its stability.

AR-15 system also blows much of the gasses back into the rifle... Comparing AR-15 and AK-74, I don't see any difference in the actual recoil... If the AR-15 is chambered for anything but the Super Long .22 - the recoiless rifle comment is pure nonsense.

Lets keep to what the gun does and doesn't do, not what the bullets do in the end of their journey. Too long talk then...

The gas pressure in the muzzle is significant, because that is the pressure that causes recoil. High maximum pressure doesn't in itself effect the amount of recoil at all; but direction, speed and mass of the gas escaping from the weapon does (think about rocket engines, same thing). So if the gas pressure is somehow contained in the gun, the only thing causing the recoil is the forward momentum of the bullet which must have caused equal momentum for the weapon in the opposite direction.

In a .223 carbine projectile kinetic energy is relatively small compared to other rifles around, and the gas kinetic energy on the other hand very high since the barrel is too short for the cartridge. Muzzle brake can be used to divert the kinetic energy of the gases to have effect on the opposite direction as the recoil, i.e. muzzle brake pulls the gun forward because of the high pressure, high velocity gases hitting it's surfaces. For the same reason supressors reduce the recoil in almost equal fashion. Gas pressure is not contained in the weapon, but diverted to create an opposing force to the recoil.

Try a customised IPSC AR-15 to see what I mean with "virtually recoilless".

-jippo

akmarksman

11-29-2005, 09:43 AM

but those race guns cost a lot of $$$

Jippo

11-29-2005, 10:53 AM

Buy e.g. a JP tank comp for your normal 16 inch barrel AR. Not that expensive and you will see the difference.

-jippo

uglybaby

01-03-2006, 06:57 PM

Okay so Im gonna sell my Sig 239 in .40 and get either a CZ P-01 or a CZ 75bd. I've handled a P-01 and loved it. Not many dealers have CZ pistols around here so I havent found a 75 yet to play with. I know the 75 is a great gun but just not sure which to buy. Anyone have any input particularly if you own/owned or used either. Thanks.

Geezah

01-03-2006, 07:04 PM

Why are you selling the Sig? Just asking.......

JoaMei

01-04-2006, 03:32 AM

Well, I have handled the CZ 75 and its really nice. The CZ P-01 is a improved/modernized version of the 75 so it should be better or as good as.

CMEPTb

01-04-2006, 03:44 AM

I have a PCR and a 75bd...both very reliable and accurate, with a slight accuracy advantage going to the 75bd. The BD's are cheaper, and it is easier to get hi-cap mags for the full size models (B/BD/SA) than the PCR/P01, although 10 round 40 cal mags from pro mag will work just fine with 9mm ammo (wink, wink). If you're going to carry concealed, go for the p01, otherwise my preference is for the full size bd model.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/2763/toys0057rp.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=toys0057rp.jpg)

Bulabash

01-04-2006, 04:02 AM

ive had a CZ 75 since 1991 and about 25000 rounds through it (broke two slide releases due to a "HOT" lot of Blue Dot" but other than that no probs) and im very happy with it, other handgun is a Glock which im very happy with too.
Id go for the full size model as im not too fond of smaller handguns, even for concealed carry theyre usually ok (unless u want to carry a desert eagle lol) unless you are a short/thin person

Kontra1

01-04-2006, 04:23 AM

Go with the CZ.I have a full size 75 B and I'm very pleased with it.

BTW..can anyone tell me where I can get some wood grips for my CZ75B ?

Freibier

01-04-2006, 06:36 AM

BTW..can anyone tell me where I can get some wood grips for my CZ75B ?
Nill makes very nice CZ75 wood grips
www.nill-griffe.de

Chops

01-04-2006, 08:23 AM

No offense to the CZ series at all- sweet little shooters- but... why sell the 239? In my neck o the woods that's kinda downscaling...

C

Silent 6

01-04-2006, 10:39 AM

Selling the sig? Something wrong with the gun or with you?

A Sig is an EXCELLENT piece of equipment. I agree with the previous poster....you'd be downgrading your equipment.

DON'T DO IT!

JoaMei

01-04-2006, 10:54 AM

The Sig 239 is nice quality but has only a 8 rounds magazine in 9mm or 7 in .40 so its not exactely that great compared to modern guns with high capacity mags.

Durandal

01-04-2006, 10:56 AM

Jericho...

Geezah

01-04-2006, 11:15 AM

The Sig 239 is nice quality but has only a 8 rounds magazine in 9mm or 7 in .40 so its not exactely that great compared to modern guns with high capacity mags.

Depends on its use, if you want something between full size and a CCW firearm, you could always go with the P228/229?

JoaMei

01-04-2006, 11:25 AM

Depends on its use, if you want something between full size and a CCW firearm, you could always go with the P228/229?

Oh, and I forgot to say I think the 239 looks really ugly.

Geezah

01-04-2006, 12:13 PM

Oh, and I forgot to say I think the 239 looks really ugly.

Well, I'm glad looks never affected its performance;)

uglybaby

01-04-2006, 04:53 PM

Yes the Sig is a great pistol and Sig makes great quality handguns. I'm selling the 239 because I bought it primarily for cc but now have the oppurtunity to do more target shooting. The .40 in this small package is a bit too much for me after 3-4 magazines. I simply don't shoot it well and think I would benefit from a 9mm on a heavier or larger platform. Also around here .40 ammo is about twice the price of 9mm. A Sig 228 or 226 could fit my bill quite nicely but they are significantly more expensive than the P-01 or 75db. I got a chance to shoot some CZ's in Czech ( my brother in-law is friendly with the local constablery) and knew I needed to own one. The testing done on the P-01 is quite impressive and if its a "improvement" over the 75, count me in. Basically thats it. The Sig is for sale. If anyones interested PM me. Thanks for the replies. Oh and JoaMei if you wanna talk about ugly firearms HighPoint is hard to beat.

Geezah

01-04-2006, 05:47 PM

Yes the Sig is a great pistol and Sig makes great quality handguns. I'm selling the 239 because I bought it primarily for cc but now have the oppurtunity to do more target shooting.

I went with 9mm on both my 226 and 239, and after spending a fair amount of time with my 239, I have found I'm a better shot with it.

The .40 in this small package is a bit too much for me after 3-4 magazines. I simply don't shoot it well and think I would benefit from a 9mm on a heavier or larger platform. Also around here .40 ammo is about twice the price of 9mm. A Sig 228 or 226 could fit my bill quite nicely but they are significantly more expensive than the P-01 or 75db.

You may want to sign up on the SIGforum, you may be able to sort out some type of trade, if you would prefer a 228 or 226, it's worth a go, if you are happy with the Sig family just not in .40 in the smaller framed firearms.

Oh and JoaMei if you wanna talk about ugly firearms HighPoint is hard to beat.

Amen to that........

StukaJr

01-04-2006, 08:24 PM

No complaints about my CZ-75B in 9mm - it was my first handgun and a very nice target pistol. It did get shipped back to CZ for a manufacturer's defect in the first month, but hasn't had any problems since. It's a very accurate shooter and has double number of rounds put through it compared to my .40 due to less fatique and cheaper ammo. I have installed a 18 lbs Wolff spring as half of its usual diet are the snappy +p rounds. I have been frequenting the official CZ boards and their pistols have a stellar track record.

My only beef with the CZ are its rear sights - not the best for rapid target acquisition. Obviously, that's just a personal preference.

Durandal

01-04-2006, 08:49 PM

This must killing Geezah. I do not think he can comprehend HOW a person could sell a working SiG. :)

Hehehehehehehe....

mi35d

01-04-2006, 09:09 PM

Have your dealer look into "police trade-ins" on a SIG 226. I purchased one back in April 05 and used it throughout the shooting season. Great handgun. Solid, low recoil, accurate. My favorite in the collection.

Great thing about SIG is that you can send the weapon to their factory and they can upgrade or restore it to new.

jpg

01-04-2006, 09:43 PM

I agree, why are you downgading? I would sell the 239 to fund a 226, 228 or 229. My only foray into the CZ realm was a Tangfolio .45. YUCK!! That and $200 became a USP45F. WOOHOO!

JPG

combat jack

01-05-2006, 12:59 AM

I rented a Sig P226. Not impressed with it at all. Decent shooter, but slide lock on it is junk. Could have just been a worn out rental. Will not pay the $600+ I've seen it sell for at the local laser gun shop. Never shot a CZ but I've heard good reports so far. My advice? If it shoots every time you pull the trigger, then buy it.

Geezah

01-05-2006, 09:37 AM

This must killing Geezah. I do not think he can comprehend HOW a person could sell a working SiG. :)

Hehehehehehehe....

You know me too well;)

The only time I've handled a CZ was at an FFL I used to go through, I was there picking up my P239 and he had it on hand while the potential owners Yellow went through(he was delayed). It felt good in my hand but as I have never fired one I cannot comment on it's performance. All that said if you prefer Sigs but cost is an issue, try trading on the Sig forum as mentioned before or you can get Police Trade ins through CDNN on the 226 and 228 or 229, it's been a while since I last got their catalog.

LtVacan

01-05-2006, 04:34 PM

Yeah, CDNN still has great deals on Sigs.

I have two P239s and I love 'em. Both of mine are .357 Sig. I don't think I would like it in .40. I have a P229 in .40, didn't like the way it shoots, so I got .357 barrel for it. I already had another P229 in .357 so I knew i'd like it. I have a P220 and a P245 too. All six are great guns and well worth the money.

DeathForSale

01-05-2006, 04:47 PM

I own a Glock 34 in 9x19mm a CZ75 which is by the way a very nice pistol and an two Zastava M57's which are my 'heavy hitters"! I would say go with a Glock!

Jippo

01-05-2006, 06:50 PM

CZ's do have the tendency break disassembly latch bolts every few thousand rounds, which will render the weapon unusable. If you have your eye set on CZ's, there are some clones that you might want to consider, namely:

- Alfa Combat (<-newcomer, according to reviews a workable gun but remains not proven. Czech-Italian co-production)
- Jericho (Israeli gun, I believe called "Baby Eagle" in the states. Some consider it to be a better weapon than CZ)
- Tanfoglio (Italian clone, cheaper models are of very varying quality and may be much worse than CZ. Expensive race guns are good from what I hear though)

I would still choose my tupperware gun over these. :) It goes on and on like the Duracell bunny...

-jippo

Seraphim

01-05-2006, 07:07 PM

I wouldnt give up a Sig either. Have you looked at the SP-01?

http://tinypic.com/jr90y8.jpg

uglybaby

01-05-2006, 07:25 PM

Seraphim

01-05-2006, 07:45 PM

Im also a member of Sigforum, I dont post much there...usually if I have a question I can quickly find it by using the search. Same as 1911forum...man did that forum sure die.

Kontra1

01-05-2006, 09:07 PM

Nill makes very nice CZ75 wood grips
www.nill-griffe.de

Yeah..I've heard of them, but I was lookingfor something more like a custom maker so I can influence a bit.

Thanks annyways though.

BTW..slidestop breakage of the CZ's are taking care of.

KaceCoyote

01-05-2006, 09:17 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/Kacecoyote/CeskaZbrojovka.jpg

2500+ rounds and counting, 0 malfs, 0 breakages. Excellent handgun, its the perfect size for CCW in my opinion. Its more accurate than I am, by a fairly large margin actually. The SIG is a great gun but, take what fits best in the hand and NOT what looks best on the mantle.

Geezah

01-06-2006, 10:26 AM

Geezah, yeah I'm on he Sig board. Ruslanb76 is my tag over there. Don't like Glocks personally. My father owns three and they are nice guns just not for me. I got to shoot some CZ's and really was impressed with them. Seraphim, I would love to get a SP-01 but they are a little hard to come by and I can get a P-01 for $450 new in box from my local guy. Just need to free up the funds. The Sig 239 is still for sale. Theres a thread on Sig forum on it. Thanks for the advice everyone. It's funny how guns are like cars or women, when you like one it's almost impossible to change ones mind.

If you have no joy on the Sig forum(it looks likeek you have had a few bites), you might want to try the EE board on AR15.Com.
I posted my STAG ARMS build on their yesterday and I think I've already got it sold.
I go by Geezah over on AR15.Com and Geezer on the Sig Forum.

Anyway, pictures are a must for any sale, people like to see what they may be buying.

uglybaby

01-07-2006, 10:16 PM

So it looks as though the 239 is sold. Can get the CZpo1 from my local dealer for $450 which leaves me some money for getting extra high caps or should I invest in proper night sites? I'm tinkering with the idea of getting a SP01 if my dealer can get it about 50 bucks more than the p01 but they are hard to get a hold of aren't they? Only small releases to the states. Anyways heres a cool video I found of the SP01 in action. I hate the video game sound effects for the gunshots and the rock music is kinda gay but still cool none the less. Gotta love the bayonet mount!
http://www.czub.cz/videospot3.php

Icarus1

01-28-2006, 07:11 PM

CQB_Operator

01-28-2006, 07:15 PM

Go for a SOCOM, the tactical is good but it is still a USP, the Mk 23 is another world!!!
http://www.hkpro.com/socomflag.jpg

OMON

01-28-2006, 07:47 PM

Walther P99 !

and if i had to choose between USP T.45 or a SOCOM, then SOCOM

Icarus1

01-28-2006, 07:50 PM

Question is not about P99 or other guns, just SOCOM or USP Tactical .45

And please post also why you would chose one of the above mentioned guns. I am working with guns, so let me know exact facts and experiences.

OMON

01-28-2006, 07:52 PM

USP Tactical .45

Caliber
.45 ACP

Capacity
12

Length
8.64

Width
1.26

Sight Radius
6.34

Barrel Length
5.09

Weight
1.90lb

JoaMei

01-28-2006, 08:13 PM

USP Tactical .45

Caliber
.45 ACP

Capacity
12

Length
8.64

Width
1.26

Sight Radius
6.34

Barrel Length
5.09

Weight
1.90lb

Well, If you dont have to carry it around pick the SOCOM. Its really heavy and bulky, but more precise.

Seraphim

01-28-2006, 09:58 PM

If money is no option then get the MARK 23...it is also being discontinued. The SOCOM MK23 is the military version.

maw

01-29-2006, 01:50 AM

practical or safe queen?

if safe queen then 23.

if practical then usp tactical hands down. with the o-ring in the barrel like the 23 and the nice trigger, the usp is no less accurate then the 23, but more managable (a lot of people joke about how the 23 is a crew served weapon).

fwiw, if it were my money, i'd get a usp compact .45, get an aftermarket o-ring threaded barrel (ccfa, jarvis?) and get some high profile night sights. this was the path some of the military 23 users were going to go but then the hk .45 project came out and put procurement on hold.

also, keep in mind that there are only two silencers that can be used on the 23 without voiding the warranty, the kac and the b&t (the ccfa is a clone of the b&t), for example, the first generation awc nexus causes the frame to develop stress cracks. i'm not singling out the nexus can, this just happens to be a big deal with the 23. the kac can is crap (imho). the usp .45 tactical and .45 compact give you more freedom of choice when it comes to cans. also the thread on the barrel on the 23 is backwards so it'll definately need a dedicated can which kinda sucks.

Durandal

01-29-2006, 02:09 AM

Hi guys, this goes to all you gun experts.

I wanted to know what I should buy of these two guns. Price is not a question, only performance, handling, reliability etc.

Heckler&Koch USP Tactical .45 or SOCOM Mk23?

What are advantages, what would you prefer. This is not about airsoft!

Having shot both, I'd have to ask what your purpose is for these pistols.

The Mk 23 is a freaking laser, but its a massive frame and heavy.

The .45 USP is lighter. It is accurate, don't get me wrong, but I shot quite well with the Mk 23 at 100 yards.

TacoDelRio

01-29-2006, 05:00 AM

The tactical is a bit shorter and lighter. he Mk23 is quite the large handgun, but if you want to shoot like Durandal says, then it may be a better gun.

I'd personally go with the Tactical. It has most everything the Mk23 has, minus a seperate decocker. Both have sights high enough to "see" over a sound suppressor.

Good luck and save your pennies!

Icarus1

01-29-2006, 10:23 AM

Having shot both, I'd have to ask what your purpose is for these pistols.

The Mk 23 is a freaking laser, but its a massive frame and heavy.

The .45 USP is lighter. It is accurate, don't get me wrong, but I shot quite well with the Mk 23 at 100 yards.

Just buy one to shoot them on the range, i work with other kinds of guns. I ask you pros because I don't want to buy one and realize afterwards that the other would be better.

ZaakM433

01-29-2006, 08:31 PM

bottom line - mk 23 is the best as far as range and accuracy goes. Its huge though, and size is often quite important (or u would just get a rifle).

hk usp tac will be most of the benefits of the mk 23 in a smaller package...

Roaming East

01-30-2006, 09:51 AM

The benefits of the 23 over the tactical are such that you'd be better served by a carbine. They are both equal in terms of applicable use. the extra accuracy from the 23 is negligible for practical reasons. If the 23 came with a detachable stock id think the world of it.

tehllama

01-30-2006, 05:18 PM

If space or weight are no big -- easily Mark23

Agreed, the USP Tactical is a more reasonable package, and is actually managable whereas the Mark23 might as well have a shoulder stock.

That, and the safety/decocker is a cute feature, only downside is that after decocking, DA triggers require you to go and put it back in safe (for models I'm familiar with).

Durandal

01-30-2006, 09:48 PM

MACT-1

01-31-2006, 05:04 AM

USP TACTICAL.
Law enforcement always copies the FBI....i.e. the 40 caliber.
Military always follows special forces....i.e. the M4.
Most units that can carry a SOCOM, opt to carry the Tactical.
A USP Tactical is the way to go.
Don't worry about 100 yard shots with a pistol. You better have a carbine or rifle for that work.
I carry a USP45 on duty and own a USP9 for personal use. The tactical is more than enough gun and recoil is relegated to a weak push in this weapon as well. Mags are a bit pricey but you sound like you can afford it.

Icarus1

01-31-2006, 10:08 AM

Okay, will go for a USP Tactical .45

Sounds good for the thing I use it for. Tactical shooting on the range and stuff. Also I should be able to use my equipment with the Tac.45. The SOCOM would be to large for it I suggest.

But I just heard collector-friend of mine recieved a fully equipped SOCOM. So I will have my fun with the SOCOM too. I am wondering how the two guns compare.

Thanks for advise guys, helped me much with my decision. Good to have the pros on mp.net

Best regards
Icarus1

akmarksman

02-04-2006, 03:07 PM

the Mk.23 kinda reminds me of the Deagle I used to shoot..big,manly caliber..and if it runs dry..you can clobber someone with it.

accessorys? you might be better served by the USP Tactical.

Personally..I'd buy both.

wormie

02-12-2006, 05:30 PM

What should I get? It's just going to be used for shooting on the weekends and personal protection... Looking to spend no more than 600.

jetsetter

02-12-2006, 05:40 PM

Used HK USP.

khaz

02-12-2006, 06:07 PM

Beretta Elite 1A .40 cal

American Patriot

02-12-2006, 06:19 PM

Can't go wrong with a Glock

crinkler

02-12-2006, 06:20 PM

Glock 17, not unique but it's cheap dependable and accurate. Stay away from the 92. I have had two and each had big problems. A lot of fte's.

I own a few glocks including a 17, 17 has had zero problems. I pull the trigger it goes bang. I carry a 19 and trust it with my life. Only problems I have ever had with a glock are bad primers on win white box. Golden sabre's are nice, not plinking ammo unless your very wealthy but great for defense.

And stick with a 9mm for carry.

Edit: Note on the beretta, I'm sure many have had good experience with their pistols. I just haven't and my views are based on the ones I have owned.

Herrmannek

02-12-2006, 06:55 PM

hmm
http://p64.proboards67.com/index.cgi

OMON

02-12-2006, 07:05 PM

Glock 17 or Walther P99

JoaMei

02-12-2006, 07:32 PM

What should I get? It's just going to be used for shooting on the weekends and personal protection... Looking to spend no more than 600.

Well, CZ Guns are well worth their Money. You should go to a Gunstore and Handle some different Guns to see what fits your hand and which control elements you feel comfortable with.

ramy

02-12-2006, 10:21 PM

buy whatever fits your hand the best.
A pistol that fits one person might not fit you well..

that being said, I like my Glock 17.

ogukuo72

02-12-2006, 10:27 PM

A Taurus 0.22 WMR revolver with target barrel and Lasergrip.

Death.

02-12-2006, 10:28 PM

Glock > All.

It's justa facT!

sergey31

02-12-2006, 10:31 PM

buy whatever fits your hand the best.
A pistol that fits one person might not fit you well..

that being said, I like my Glock 17.

Yah....My Sig 220 fits perfect in my hand and shoots like crap.
Glock 22 doesn't fit all that comfortable but I hit bulls eye at 30yd non stop.

There's more to handguns then just comfortable fit.

Catch22

02-12-2006, 10:42 PM

hmm
http://p64.proboards67.com/index.cgi

You are intentionally trying to kill him Hermie. Don't!

Glock 17, good hollowpoints for self defense, FMJ for practice.

Seraphim

02-13-2006, 12:00 AM

Test out a Sig certified refurb. Spend the rest on mags and ammo.

onefast93z28

02-13-2006, 05:59 AM

I carry a full size 1911 everyday with my CWL, can't go wrong with the tried and true.

nognig

02-13-2006, 07:59 AM

Definitely buy a 9mm, you'll get a lot more rounds for your money than any other calibre (except .22LR).

NN

crinkler

02-13-2006, 08:02 AM

Definitely buy a 9mm, you'll get a lot more rounds for your money than any other calibre (except .22LR).

NN
My main reason to have a 9mm is capacity. It's a strong round plus you can have 17 rounds in the case that first one doesn't hit. Most people aren't crack shots under stress.

Durandal

02-13-2006, 10:15 AM

What should I get? It's just going to be used for shooting on the weekends and personal protection... Looking to spend no more than 600.

If you are asking here, in this forum, then you should try to get some trigger time on various pistols to see what YOU like.

Otherwise, you are going to get the HK vs SiG vs Glock vs Beretta vs 1911 vs 9mm vs .45 vs 40 argument...

Go to a store/range and hold every single mainstream pistol. Since you are looking for personal defense try to keep out of the large frame stuff. Other than that, check them all out. Find a range that lets you rent guns. They usually cost 5 to 10 bucks plus range time and ammo. They usually have the guns and calibers I mentioned above. Get a feel and then work from there.

Anyone that tells you what gun to buy without KNOWING you is simply blowing wind.

With that said, have fun doing it and be safe. The first pistol is always the most memorable and exciting.

dangerdan87

02-13-2006, 11:40 AM

wormie, your not 21, so you can't legally buy a handgun and have it in your name.

And dont fall for the $1000000 DELTA FROCE RECON SEAL SOCOM pistols....they work just like any other pistol out there.

sergey31

02-13-2006, 11:53 AM

Anyone that tells you what gun to buy without KNOWING you is simply blowing wind.

Not true....

You should buy Glock Magnum, It's more accurate then other guns + FBI SEAL team use them so you can't go wrong. It has to be good if they use them.

Geezah

02-13-2006, 11:57 AM

wormie, your not 21, so you can't legally buy a handgun and have it in your name.

I was going to say the same thing, but if a parent purchases it and lets him use it, then he should be good.

Frens

02-13-2006, 12:10 PM

try as many handguns as possible, then decide.

American Patriot

02-13-2006, 12:39 PM

I would highly recommend a .22 handgun or a .22 conversion kit if this is your first and you want to learn to shoot properly.

Createdeemcee

02-13-2006, 01:58 PM

Definately go .40 cal or .45. In these days and times 9mm isnt anything. I like the taurus 27/7 in .40 cal. It offers some upgrade abilities with its Tac mount rail and never jams on me at all. It also was noted as the NRA Pistol of the year for 2005. You can prchase it in 9mm,.40 , or .45 calibers. Glock is great, but this is dependability and affordability packed into one pistol. I paid 419.00 for mine but I have seen them online as cheap as 330.00

http://taurususa.com/main/index.cfm?CFID=790519&CFTOKEN=92564157

wormie

02-13-2006, 03:24 PM

I would highly recommend a .22 handgun or a .22 conversion kit if this is your first and you want to learn to shoot properly.
I've been shooting a .25 a lot lately, the gun is pretty ****ty though, the trigger is messed up. And about the 21 to buy thing, I am FULLY aware of that.

scrybe

02-13-2006, 05:14 PM

If you are asking here, in this forum, then you should try to get some trigger time on various pistols to see what YOU like.

Otherwise, you are going to get the HK vs SiG vs Glock vs Beretta vs 1911 vs 9mm vs .45 vs 40 argument...

Go to a store/range and hold every single mainstream pistol. Since you are looking for personal defense try to keep out of the large frame stuff. Other than that, check them all out. Find a range that lets you rent guns. They usually cost 5 to 10 bucks plus range time and ammo. They usually have the guns and calibers I mentioned above. Get a feel and then work from there.

Anyone that tells you what gun to buy without KNOWING you is simply blowing wind.

With that said, have fun doing it and be safe. The first pistol is always the most memorable and exciting.

This is the best advice you are going to get. With a budget of $600, you will be able to chose from many of the main brands, specially if you buy used.

BrigN96

02-13-2006, 05:52 PM

I`m not in the US so I don`t know the prices.
But, I encourage you to try as many different types of guns as possible.
Your hand might fit better to a 1911 grip rather than the GLOCK grip, and there are huge differenses between singel stack and double stack 1911`s.

You might prefer the softer recoil from a .45 than the sharp recoil from a 9mm.

What ever you do, please do not go for Walther P99 or the Beretta 92, they look good, but are pieces of crap;)

Seraphim

02-13-2006, 06:07 PM

BrigN96

02-13-2006, 06:09 PM

9mm has recoil? p-)

For a first time shooter a .25 acp has recoil :roll:

StukaJr

02-13-2006, 06:36 PM

Buying any handgun from hearsay is only worth it if you are going to have a collection - if it's the only handgun you are planning to have in a while, then perhaps it's going to be one handgun that is best fitted for your hands and what you plan to do with it.

Your local range should have a variety of handguns available for rent - get a good idea what suits your hands, get a feel for how guns shoot and also range guns are a good way to tell how the extreme wear affects each weapon... There will certainly be certain models that will show age a lot quicker - if it's your only handgun, it will need to take a lot of punishment.

Guns are like cars, except that buying a used gun is a lot safer than buying a used cars. As far as the new guns go - you do get what you paid for 99% of the time.

uglybaby

02-13-2006, 07:36 PM

For a first gun you might be well served to get a wheel gun in .357 so you can shoot .38 and save money for plinking. Simple and reliable. If you are set on an automatic like others have said try some out. Go to stores and handle them. I like Sigs, Glocks and my newest the CZ P01. I actually prefer the feel of the CZ to the Sigs but would like the slide to be a little larger for easier racking. They are really simple to operate and maintain will fit your price range and have lots of options and parts available. Some are 1911 only guys. It all depends. Best thing to do is try out a lot find someone knowledgeable, join a local gun club and take an NRA saftey course. Not just in that order of course. Good luck in your search and let us know what you decide.

Durandal

02-13-2006, 07:59 PM

What ever you do, please do not go for Walther P99 or the Beretta 92, they look good, but are pieces of crap;)

And this is the kind of §hit I am talking about.
I am talking about.

I've owned a 92 for years now and put thousands of round through it. Its a laser with the large frame and long barrel.

But I will not tell the guy to buy it and NOT buy a Smith and Wesson, because I do not like Smith and Wesson. My buddy got a DA only Taurus PT24/7. I cannot stand the gun, but he loves it. To each their own.

So chill out on the stupid §hit...

MACT-1

02-14-2006, 01:18 AM

Glocks are nice. If you are a pistol novice you might want a weapon with a safety though. HK's are also very nice.
If you want a 9mm get one. If you want a .357 sig, get one. You do not have to own a .40 caliber pistol to defend yourself. As long as you buy one of the major calibers and carry hollowpoint ammo you will be okay.
Your job is try and shoot as many pistols as you can get your hands on then buy then train, train, train.

JoaMei

02-14-2006, 03:04 AM

BrigN96

02-14-2006, 06:02 AM

And this is the kind of §hit I am talking about.
I am talking about.

I've owned a 92 for years now and put thousands of round through it. Its a laser with the large frame and long barrel.

But I will not tell the guy to buy it and NOT buy a Smith and Wesson, because I do not like Smith and Wesson. My buddy got a DA only Taurus PT24/7. I cannot stand the gun, but he loves it. To each their own.

So chill out on the stupid §hit...

Whats wrong with the P99? Ok, its nothing special but it works.

Well, the P99 might have been improved since it was launched.
But I was one of the first to shoot it at my clubs range back in 1999 or was it 2000.. Anyway, my club had two P99 and both were malfunctioning with all kinds of ammo so we sent them back for review / gunsmithing.

There was heaps of issues with the P99, so we returned them after the supplier had his fair share of opportunity to fix the issues.

Wather have some unique and wonderful pieces, as the PPK, witch I love.

But please, go to your local range try their guns, ask to try other member’s guns, go to your local gunshop and fumble with their guns. Then decide.

(And I believe personal opinions are allowed with close to 15 years of experience with firearms, 3 years army duty and two tours to conflict areas in a blue beret ) p-)

wormie

02-14-2006, 06:44 AM

I think I want a Glock 23C... gonna go check some out today if I get the time. :)

Durandal

02-14-2006, 10:32 AM

(And I believe personal opinions are allowed with close to 15 years of experience with firearms, 3 years army duty and two tours to conflict areas in a blue beret ) p-)

Then you should be giving him BETTER advice and one less contrary to someone who knows something about firearms.

wormie

02-14-2006, 11:36 AM

Went to the local store and found the follow Glock's:
Glock 27 - New - 529.99
Glock 23 - Used - 419.99
Glock 22 - New - 529.99
Glock 21 - New - 579.99

The model I am interested in is the Glock 23, but is a used Glock 23 for 419.99 a good deal? Was hoping for a new one, but it is after all my first gun..

crinkler

02-14-2006, 11:49 AM

wormie

02-14-2006, 12:02 PM

$420 for a used glock is high unless its a 34
What about the rest of those prices?

crinkler

02-14-2006, 12:22 PM

What about the rest of those prices?
$579 is a bit high. Glocks usually sell $20-30 if not more under retail.

Durandal

02-14-2006, 08:31 PM

What about the rest of those prices?

Go to a local gun show and check.

You should be able to roll most of the Glocks for about 500.00 even, maybe even the 490.00 range.

Used should be MUCH lower, especially for a used LE issue one. If you can get a good price on a used one, go for it. You can always buy a new barrel later on down the line.

IF that is what you know will work for you.

wormie

02-15-2006, 06:54 PM

Go to a local gun show and check.

You should be able to roll most of the Glocks for about 500.00 even, maybe even the 490.00 range.

Used should be MUCH lower, especially for a used LE issue one. If you can get a good price on a used one, go for it. You can always buy a new barrel later on down the line.

IF that is what you know will work for you.

Local gun store had the Glock 17 at $575.

gonna wait for a gun show.

Durandal

02-15-2006, 08:45 PM

Local gun store had the Glock 17 at $575.

gonna wait for a gun show.

Sounds like a good plan.

You going to have your old man buy this for you? If so, make sure your State's gun laws are cool with this. For example, both Ohio and Texas have laws that make legal for a legal guardian to purchase a pistol for a minor. Some States consider it a straw man purchase.

Other than that, have fun, and update what you find out or get!

DrMom

02-16-2006, 02:39 AM

aww man, he's gettin a glock :-(

Vandervahn

02-16-2006, 03:54 AM

aww man, he's gettin a glock :-(
... and by that he will get a modern well-respected firearm with a comparably low price, unquestioned reliable and proven design AND a huge dealer/fanbase (for when he has problems).

Thats definately better for a newcomer than for example a pretty 1911 clone that often need a bit more care, or a HK/SiG with a heavenly price.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

03-19-2006, 08:57 PM

I'm looking for a .45ACP...preferably under $500 (I know thats pretty conservative but I am open to larger prices but this will be my first .45 and I figured I should buy a cheaper one the first time, am I wrong?). I'm not interested in the GAP round though (smells like the .41 AE!). Open to different suggestions and opinions. My only experience with the .45ACP is Colt 1911A1, not a bad weapon but I'd like a higher cap...

HoboWithAK

03-19-2006, 09:20 PM

Used or new? Go to a range and try out some different ones in your price range. You don't want to spend 450$ on a 1000$ gun in a killer deal, that doesn't fit your hand.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

03-19-2006, 09:37 PM

New 123456

ShakesFIST

03-19-2006, 09:38 PM

I bought a USP 45... I love it but I payed $799 for a new one. Its a good choice if you ask me. I would research everything about .45s in general. Then I would narrow it down to 3-5 models. Then I would research EVERYTHING you can possibly find about those 3-5. NOW go to your local gun store and feel them up. Now decide.

ABNINF

03-19-2006, 10:04 PM

Springfield Armory has a new .45 ACP XD, that holds 14 rounds. It's supposed to be no bigger than the normal XD's, but I have yet to hold one, as they're hard to come by around these parts;-) You should be able to get it for around $500.

Also, there's a HUGE difference between .41AE and .45GAP

Seraphim

03-19-2006, 10:34 PM

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

03-19-2006, 10:43 PM

oh haha no i was saying that .45 GAP might be discontinued like the old .41 AE, but I saw a Springfield XD in .45 GAP (so I wasn't much interested although it was $500 and it looked like an expensive glock knockoff or something) that held 11 rounds, but the slide said made in "Croatia" and no offense to Croatia but I wasn't sure if their machining tolerances are very good or not, dunno if they're ISO 9000 or not.

LaoSexMachine

03-19-2006, 11:26 PM

I have a Rock Island .45 1911. Got it fot $400 it's my project pistol. It's a good gun and accuracy is good. I'm going to replace the trigger, hammmer, and beaver tail. So it will be a better weapon after I'm done without spending the money versus buying one with all the bells and whistle.

ShakesFIST

03-20-2006, 01:41 AM

A friend of mine bought his XD .45 ACp the same time I got my USP. It shoots pretty good and seems pretty reliable. Its nearly impossible to find mags for it though.

I like it and would say its a good choice. I still prefer the USP though... :)

CMEPTb

03-20-2006, 06:19 AM

Glock 21, used sig 220, CZ97, Ruger (don't know model#)

gaijinsamurai

03-20-2006, 07:34 AM

I've owned a Springfield .45 for almost twenty years now, and I've been happy with it. I'd love to have a HK USP .45 compact, but my budget and location prevent it at this time. I've heard the newer Auto-Ordinance 1911s are good pistols for the price.

Mark Sman

03-21-2006, 03:53 AM

Para Ordnance also has aline of .45s that are very 1911ish, but with some higher capacity versions. Some people find the grips large. I had a P13.45, and used it until it was worn out. I replaced it with a Kimber that has since had a major redesign. The redesign isn't bad, the original design was crap.

http://www.paraord.com/pages/indexc.html

dangerdan87

03-21-2006, 12:11 PM

I have a Ruger KP-90 (stainless steel P90) in .45. Trying to sell. Not a bad gun for the money. Its no SF DELTA FORCE RECON SOCOM SEAL tactical low drag high speed gun, but it gets the job done and then some.

sergey31

03-21-2006, 12:25 PM

I'll sell my Sig 220 and will get Springfield XD 45 tactical model. (I hate Sigs)

spin

03-21-2006, 12:43 PM

but the slide said made in "Croatia" and no offense to Croatia but I wasn't sure if their machining tolerances are very good or not, dunno if they're ISO 9000 or not.

Yes, they have iso standards.

James

03-21-2006, 03:13 PM

Here's someother threads you started about similar topics...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62446
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52451
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51150

Anyway, I'll repeat myself. Up your budget a little bit. You'll havea lot more options.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

03-22-2006, 02:26 AM

yeah I know James, but I've been too miserly and haven't seen a weapon thats given me the right "fit" yet. The old IMI baby eagle felt great in my hand, and the cap was 10+1 but it wasn't offered in stainless, in hindsight I should've bought it ($300+) plus I have never shot any weapon made by IMI so I wasnt sure. The 1911's are good but low cap, although the para ordinances that Mark pointed out had higher caps (might be a good direction to check out).

I think I'm just looking for something in stainless (though this isnt completely necessary), high cap, with a sleeker design something not overly bulky. Everyone on this sight that responds gives great responses, I couldn't imagine asking anyone else.

rob

03-22-2006, 04:00 AM

get a smith wesson m1911 and dont worry about it.

chances are if what ever our shooting at doesnt go down after 8 rounds of .45 then its not going down after 12 or 14. and if there are more then two guys anything short of a rifle was a bad choice.

USMC Tanker

03-22-2006, 09:35 PM

For around $500 you're looking at the new Springfield Armory XD .45 ACP or their 1911 High Capacity which you can find under $600. Glocks just don't impress me.

Hispeed1

03-22-2006, 09:46 PM

Sigs are very ergonomic and feel good in the hand, Glocks & HK's feel a bit squarish and boxy in the hand-they are great pistols though. Tactical 1911's are tried and true. . . If you can, try to buy brand new. My advice-TAKE your TIME and even go to your local range to shoot your top pics.

USMC-to-be

03-23-2006, 03:15 PM

Ack, opened my mouth too fast, sorry. Disregard.

Durandal

03-24-2006, 10:46 AM

.45 GAP will stay a minority in the .45 family, never matching the availability that .45 ACP does. So you have a cost and supply issue there.

With that being said, what exactly are you looking for? Hi-Magazine capacity or .45ACP?

Its difficult to get both.

Either get a single stack 1911 or get an AR in .45ACP. The pistol, if you go the Rock River, Springfield, Taurus route will be in your price range.

Its sort of like asking, "I want a muscle car that gets 60 miles to the gallon."

You cannot have both.

sergey31

03-24-2006, 11:06 AM

Glock and Springfield XD will hold 13 rounds in mag + 1 in the chamber..... That's 14 rounds of .45 in your hand. If anyone needs more then that, Well, they need more training not higher capacity.

ABNINF

03-24-2006, 12:45 PM

Agreed. I used to tell people that when I sold guns. I used to tell the people that were obsessed with hi cap mags, that if you needed more than 10 rounds, you either needed more training, or to run like h*** cause you're outnumbered. I also told them that if they felt they needed more than 10 rounds, to carry an extra mag. But, some people were hopeless.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

03-24-2006, 01:07 PM

i wouldnt snub my nose at ten, but 7 is another story entirely...although im pretty damn sure id never have to use beyond 7, im just never sure, id rather be overly prepared than under.

its just hard to find a .45 ACP with higher caps because the casing is so big, but i want the .45 nothing more or less, just trying to find that gun that i can research and try out.

Durandal

03-24-2006, 09:23 PM

Glock and Springfield XD will hold 13 rounds in mag + 1 in the chamber..... That's 14 rounds of .45 in your hand. If anyone needs more then that, Well, they need more training not higher capacity.

Yeah, but those do not fall in his 400.00 price range.

Not too sure what is wrong with 7+1 or 10+1, which pretty much what you get with most 1911s...

Sorry, when someone says they want a gun in .45ACP I get a sort of tunnel vision.

ShakesFIST

03-24-2006, 11:30 PM

I found 20 round mags for my USP45 and they are releasing a 45 round DRUM...yes I said drum. Pointless but if you REALLY want capacity and .45 you should be good... :)

ABNINF

03-24-2006, 11:30 PM

Sorry, when someone says they want a gun in .45ACP I get a sort of tunnel vision.

lol, ditto.

Remember, 1911 mags are alot slimmer than ordinary double stack mags, meaning they're easier to conceal.

Seraphim

03-24-2006, 11:36 PM

I found 20 round mags for my USP45 and they are releasing a 45 round DRUM...yes I said drum. Pointless but if you REALLY want capacity and .45 you should be good... :)

Factory or crappy pro mags?

ShakesFIST

03-24-2006, 11:49 PM

Promags, thats why I put the smile on it. If all you want is a high cap mag for the range they can't be THAT bad...:)

jpg

03-25-2006, 12:21 AM

I have and love the USP45F. If you are on a budget, get a name brand 1911. Colt, Kimber and Springfield are all good. Don't buy anything that you are the slightest bit unsure of. $500 is a lot of money don't be disapponted.

I had an EAA Witness in .45. It was VERY cheap. It held 11+1, was reliable as could be, but had the worst trigger on the planet. I used it as a partial trade and got the USP45F. It was what I wanted in the first place.

Durandal

03-25-2006, 10:52 AM

lol, ditto.

Remember, 1911 mags are alot slimmer than ordinary double stack mags, meaning they're easier to conceal.

Well not THAT much easier. They are slimmer, sure, but if you are running courses, they still take up pretty much the same space as double stack 9mm mags.

But that's me. I'm not the one that keeps an extra mag in my sock or under my hat :) . I keep everything on the belt or under the shoulder.

Durandal

03-25-2006, 10:55 AM

I found 20 round mags for my USP45 and they are releasing a 45 round DRUM...yes I said drum. Pointless but if you REALLY want capacity and .45 you should be good... :)

Hell, I'd argue that even a drum is pointless if all you are doing is spraying lead down a range. 45 rounds is pretty damn heavy.

I was down at Knob Creek one time chilling on the bleachers after hauling 2000 rounds back to my truck and along walks this guy. I did a double take. He had made a custom 100 Glock mag, double stack 9mm. The thing was almost 4ft long.

He gets nerd points for certain. Interesting but absolutely pointless.

ABNINF

03-25-2006, 02:28 PM

Well not THAT much easier. They are slimmer, sure, but if you are running courses, they still take up pretty much the same space as double stack 9mm mags.

But that's me. I'm not the one that keeps an extra mag in my sock or under my hat :) . I keep everything on the belt or under the shoulder.

What I meant by that was, that IF you feel that you need to carry another mag, it's easier to slip a 1911 mag in next to your wallet, or something along those lines. I've never been in a situation, outside work, where I felt that I needed another mag.

akmarksman

03-26-2006, 05:13 AM

Laconian

03-26-2006, 08:40 AM

As a platform for a .45ACP round, I tend to favor the 1911A1. There are widebodies that take more than 7-8 rounds, but I find them uncomfortable, the same with the Glock 21. I also like the SIG P220, but I shoot/carry a SIG so I am used to the system. Again, I like single stack mags & you can get some extended 9-10 rounders from reputable companies. Also, the N-Frame S&W wheelgun like the one James recently picked up is as cool as he!!, although its like trying to hide a box of Cap'n Crunch under your shirt.

If I carry any handgun, I also carry at least one reloading device for it. Not just cause I might need more ammo, but to help fix a double feed as well.

Sneeker

03-29-2006, 01:10 PM

Just wondering a littlebit about this round, I hurd that the secret service use this round. What are they comparable too. Are they easy to find. Im thinking they are like a 9mm. And what are your thoughts on this round.

Any input would be enjoyed.
Thanks alot
Elkow

SMGLee

03-29-2006, 01:58 PM

almost like shooting a 357MAG.

it is a 40SW casing necked to accept a 9mm round. shoots very flat and the recoil is robust but very controllable.

not a lot of shooting with this round yet so the verdict is still out.

wamp

03-29-2006, 04:59 PM

The Texas Highway patrol was one of the first departments to adopt it here in the United States. With 13 shootings using the SIG 226 .45 there were only three fatalties, with the 11 shootings with .357 SIG there were eight fatalities. Sure there were diffrent variables such as shot placement and such, but the majority of the shootings were similar but a decent .45 round such as the gold dot was not available yet. For instance a shooting occured where a suspect was shot in the shirt pocket full of business cards, the .45rnd mushroomed into the cards then went into his chest but he was available to continue firing. The .357SIG has an amazing amount of FPS coming out of the muzzle also which allows for more penetration, granted there was a problem at first with this, but we shoot alot of cars off the road here and it was nice to have a round that would crack a rim etc. Prolly to much info but yes it is a very good round for self-defense application. They are still semi expensive but a number of gun manufactuers now offer a wide range of pistols chambered in this caliber.

StukaJr

03-29-2006, 05:21 PM

I like the fact that many Sigs now come with interchangeable barrels for the .357 sig and .40 S&W...

Yimmy

03-29-2006, 05:41 PM

The Texas Highway patrol was one of the first departments to adopt it here in the United States. With 13 shootings using the SIG 226 .45 there were only three fatalties

I wasn't aware the Sig 226 was available in .45, I thought that was the Sig 220?

Laconian

03-29-2006, 09:40 PM

I had basically heard the same thing as wamp, I couldn't remember if it was TX DPS or a local PD, but yeah they are digging the stop rate with the .357SIG. From the f/a instructors I have talked with the .357 SIG is not experiencing the same amounts of problems that we are with our P229s in .40. It may be because it is a necked down cartridge or hotter round.

wamp

03-29-2006, 10:46 PM

I wasn't aware the Sig 226 was available in .45, I thought that was the Sig 220?

Nice catch didnt realize I had put that :)

sergey31

03-29-2006, 10:54 PM

It's a good round and better then 9mm but I'll stick with .45 instead (and 5.7x28mm)

Hollis

03-29-2006, 11:07 PM

I like the fact that many Sigs now come with interchangeable barrels for the .357 sig and .40 S&W...

Yep about 100 - 130 USD you can get a 357 sig barrel for a glock in 40 S&W,

wamp

03-29-2006, 11:25 PM

Putting a 357 sig barrel in the long barrel Glock 35 is alot of fun. Hardly any recoil and the FPS coming out of that long barrel is amazing.

Here is a page to help you out concerning the caliber
http://glockmeister.com/357sig.shtml

ogukuo72

03-29-2006, 11:32 PM

What's the difference between a 125gr 357Sig and a 9mm 124gr +p+?

wamp

03-29-2006, 11:55 PM

What's the difference between a 125gr 357Sig and a 9mm 124gr +p+?

I couldnt tell you exactly but this might help....

http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm

Hollis

03-30-2006, 12:26 AM

Another way of looking at it, 9 mm to 357 Sig is like 38 special to 357 Mag.

ogukuo72

03-30-2006, 01:38 AM

Between the 0.38 and the 0.357, I will choose the 0.38 as having the better balance between power and shootability. :)

BTW, nice link Wamp. It's not surprising that the 0.357SiG can be loaded to a higher pressure given the larger shell volume.

sergey31

03-30-2006, 03:26 AM

What's the difference between a 125gr 357Sig and a 9mm 124gr +p+?
The difference is that 357SIG handgun was designed for that cartridge to fire many thousands of rounds. While there is no handgun that I know of that will tolerate 9mm +P+ for the same amount of rounds. The quickest way to prematurely wear off you 9mm pistol is to shoot +p+ regularly. Not to mention that in most cases +p+ is available only to LE officers and is very expencive.

ogukuo72

03-30-2006, 03:37 AM

I got this from tactical forums:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."

I'm not familiar with the 0.357 SIG, but what I've read so far wouldn't convince me to switch from 9mm to 0.357 SIG. The 0.357 SiG 125gr seems to be no better than the 9mm 124gr +P. Looking at an expanded bullet, the 0.357SIG bullet has roughly the same diameter as both 124gr and 147gr 9mm round. The 147gr load had slightly better penetration in ballistic gelatin. Given this, performance probably won't be that different.

So the 0.357Sig is more equivalent to the 9mm +p than the 9mm +p+.

And if I'm not wrong, what is +P in US civilian loads is roughly equivalent to the pressure in NATO loads. Many 9mm pistols - including many forty year old Browning Hi-Powers - continue to happily accept NATO loads without problem.

My $0.02 is, don't give up on the 9mm just yet. If you want really want to trade up, go with the 0.40 instead. The 0.357Sig doesn't seem to do much more than the 9mm +p.

sergey31

03-30-2006, 03:48 AM

THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."

Good to know again, even though I already knew it.

Sneeker

03-30-2006, 04:53 AM

akmarksman

03-30-2006, 09:48 AM

I never had trouble with 7 rounds of .45ACP..
of course reloads might be an issue if you spray..or if there's more than one bad guy..but shot placement and training outweigh caliber.

You could have a .50BMG thermonuclear round and if you don't aim..and you miss..well what about the guy on the other end,who has trained with his .32ACP and consistently hits targets out to 40yds with 1" groups?
;-)

wamp

03-30-2006, 10:37 AM

Thanks alot guys. That helped alot :hug:

So out of the 4 rounds witch would be the best deffence round. For a last resort sort of thing.
Witch would you want to have on your hip if you had nothing else and you were backed into a corner/ditch/hell.

We could argue about the best caliber for pages, but the best thing is like akmarksman said, find a gun that you are comfortable with and go from there. If you have a range near you rent a couple of diffrent handguns in diffrent calibers and see what you like. Once you decide on a pistol then practice, practice, practice.

Obvisouly stay away from the smaller calibers, but with any of the 9mm,40s&w, .45acp, 357sig, you will be fine.

Sneeker

03-30-2006, 11:55 AM

Right on thanks guys for all your input again.

Hollis

03-30-2006, 01:04 PM

Between the 0.38 and the 0.357, I will choose the 0.38 as having the better balance between power and shootability. :)

Yes that about sums up shooting. I was LEo just when the switch to 357 Mag from 38 spec, it was stopability. Generally a LEO in alife threatening situation stopabilty is a important factor, especially when a perp is pumped on PCP(?) and a 38 just does not hit hard enough. For generall sport shooting I like 38 Spec loads.

eighty2

03-30-2006, 02:42 PM

"The .357SIG has an amazing amount of FPS coming out of the muzzle also which allows for more penetration, granted there was a problem at first with this, but we shoot alot of cars off the road here and it was nice to have a round that would crack a rim etc."

Damn... Don't mess with Texas!

LtVacan

03-30-2006, 03:34 PM

I would be interested in which brand of .357 Sig ammo was used in that test. All of the JHP ammo that I have in that caliber clocks over 1400 FPS, the tested ammo was at 1319 fps. Corbon loads are around 1450 with 125 gr. bullets and 1420 or so with 150 gr. bullets.

I have several pistols in .357 Sig caliber and I have fired several thousand rounds through them (Glock 32, H&K USP compact, Sig P229, Sig P239). I have not shot anybody with them, but I HAVE used them in several tactical pistol classes. More than half of the ammo I use in training is FMJ and I doubt it is at the maximum pressure. I was actually putting dents in the steel targets made of hardened steel armor plate. No other pistol caliber has ever done this in the 15-20 years this school has been in existance.

I personally can shoot much better with the .357 Sig than with the .40 S&W from otherwise identical pistols. The recoil is not more, or less, but different. The .357 seems to push the gun back while the .40 seems to go up.

I've been shooting 9mm guns for decades, with a wide variety of ammo, including NATO ball, +p and +P+. My experience tells me the .357 Sig outperforms them all. I like it better than the .40, but that is just a personal preference. The full house 10mm beats them both, but only slightly, and requires a larger frame pistol.

That's my two cents.

ogukuo72

03-30-2006, 08:38 PM

The bullets used in the picture of the bare gelatin shots were all Federal HST's. BTW, the picture would look exactly the same if Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger Talon were used instead...

The photos illustrating the recovered bullets depict Gold Dot in 357 Sig and Ranger Talons for the other calibers--they represent optimum performance in each caliber.

"Partywaggin", you might consider re-assessing your comment that the 357 Sig compares to the .45 ACP--the 357 Sig has nearly identical expansion and permanent crush cavity compared with the 9 mm, not .45 ACP. The only area where the 357 Sig is similar to .45 ACP is with the temporary cavity, however, since the stretch effects are relatively minor with all of these service calibers and cause no significant injury, the similarity is moot. Please review the following previous discussions of 357 Sig.

Here you go! :) I think it's the Gold Dot 357 SIG. Can't find any mention of what they shot it out of, though.

I would suppose to shooting a round that depends on high velocity out of a shorter barrel might effect its performance somewhat.

ogukuo72

03-30-2006, 08:39 PM

Yes that about sums up shooting. I was LEo just when the switch to 357 Mag from 38 spec, it was stopability. Generally a LEO in alife threatening situation stopabilty is a important factor, especially when a perp is pumped on PCP(?) and a 38 just does not hit hard enough. For generall sport shooting I like 38 Spec loads.

Then you'll contemplate with horror our little country of Singapore here! :) Our patrol officers carry a five-shot 0.38 Special Taurus M85 3-inch barrelled revolver. p-)