Israel hit by Bible burning row

[TheStorm]

Israel hit by Bible burning row

Messianic Jews in Israel say they want an inquiry into the burning of hundreds of copies of the New Testament by Orthodox Jews in Or Yehuda last week.

The books were given to the town's Ethiopian Jews by the Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus as a saviour.

Or Yehuda's deputy mayor says he received complaints about the books, and arranged for them to be burnt.

He has now apologised after his actions have been compared to those of Nazis who burnt Jewish holy scriptures.

Proselytizing to Ethiopian Jews is sensitive because historically they were the target of missionaries who converted many to Christianity in Ethiopia - though they later argued the conversion was forced and they had never really abandoned their Jewish faith, the BBC's Frances Harrison says.

The dispute is revealing growing tension between Messianic Jews and their Orthodox opponents who do not recognise them as Jews, our correspondent adds.

'Dumped and burned'

Many of the details of exactly what happened in Or Yehuda are now disputed.

But the deputy mayor says Messianic Jewish missionaries had targeted an area of the town where many Ethiopian Jews live, distributing packages containing New Testaments and pamphlets.

He says he received complaints and then drove around the area with a loudspeaker urging people to hand over the material to Orthodox religious students who went door-to-door collecting it.

The books were then dumped in a pile and burned.

Messianic Jews complain of institutionalised discrimination and are demanding all those involved be put on trial.

Meanwhile, Orthodox Jews are applauding the destruction of texts they say urge Jews to convert.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7413134.stm

Published: 2008/05/21 15:45:59 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

In reference to the bolded parts: what the hell? Who is the deputy mayor (or any public official) to go around collecting and burning books because they piss some people off?

[Vorian]

What's the difference between Messianic and Orthodox Jews? (I think Orthodox Jews are more hardcore right?)

[Mackie]

Religions :roll:
For weak spirits. ^^

[Hollis]

What's the difference between Messianic and Orthodox Jews? (I think Orthodox Jews are more hardcore right?)


No, Messianics are Christians. Orthodox Jews follows Judaism. Two different religions.

[TheStorm]

What's the difference between Messianic and Orthodox Jews? (I think Orthodox Jews are more hardcore right?)

As the article says, Messianic Jews believe that Jesus is the saviour. Most other Jews don't consider them to be Jews. Orthodox Jews believe that the Messiah hasn't come yet. See the wikipedia articles:

Messianic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews)


"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."

Orthodox Jews
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Jews)

[bigvig]

What's the difference between Messianic and Orthodox Jews? (I think Orthodox Jews are more hardcore right?)
I think Messianic Jews believe in Jesus or something, while the Orthodox don't. Or at least don't hold Jeebuz to be the embodiment of divinity.

[BloodDiamondPants]

The Torah is simply the old testament of the Christian Bible. If they burn a Bible, they by proxy burn the Torah as well. I put it akin to refusing to sleep with a beautiful woman with a flawless body because you think her face isn't up to your standards. Must one pass up an great opportunity because some part of it isn't up to your standards? Have a beer, everything will be alright. Every culture has it's idiots.

[playtym]

I wonder whether the Christians of the world are going to be as outraged (and will display this outrage) over this as the Muslims were over the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad?

I also wonder whether it will be more of a negative reflection on their faith if they do, or if they don't?

[Hollis]

The Torah is simply the old testament of the Christian Bible. If they burn a Bible, they by proxy burn the Torah as well. I put it akin to refusing to sleep with a beautiful woman because you think her face isn't up to your standards. Must one pass up an great opportunity because some part of it isn't up to your standards? Have a beer, everything will be alright. Every culture has it's idiots.


Torah is the first five books, equivalent to the Pentateuch. The Old Testament is very similar to the Tanach. They burnt the the New Testament. It is a uniquely Christian Book (part of the Christian Bible).

[BloodDiamondPants]

Understood HOLLIS; what I was referring to is the near-symbiotic link between the two texts. I believe in people. I don't believe in group-think, and Abilene Paradox however. I believe this is an example of the former. Yes, they are separate; and yes, one may pick and choose the parts of religion that suit your life. But intelligent people (and there are many people out there that don't realize that they have the capability to be intelligent, but get them alone; they always come around in my experience) know that the foundations of all religions are ones of peace. The Christian and Jewish texts are neigh inseparable; burning one and not the other: "don't make no sense (hence the "proxy" caveat)." I believe most people, given the chance to think independently, come to that conclusion. That is what I was speaking to.

[futurepilot2004]

I wonder whether the Christians of the world are going to be as outraged (and will display this outrage) over this as the Muslims were over the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad?


I wonder if there`ll be as much an uproar from people on this site about this compared to if it had been muslims who did the burning.

[Mr.Flint]

Stupid action on the part of the mayor, especially considering the fact the proselyting is not exactly legal there.
but Messianic "Jews" piss me off, i constantly get those loons on my doorstep, and everytime im trying to dispute with them, i realize how shallow and uneducated they are... Jehova's Witnesses are so much more amusing.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

I wonder whether the Christians of the world are going to be as outraged (and will display this outrage) over this as the Muslims were over the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad?

I also wonder whether it will be more of a negative reflection on their faith if they do, or if they don't?



I doubt it, the Evangelical-types love the Jews now because of all that rapture crap.

[Snoshi]

Burning books is stupid.. But you have to be idiotic to go into an Orthodox Jewish area and try to convert them to other religion..

[Vorian]

So Messianic Jews are actually Christians of Jewish descend. Ok. Got it.

[Moledet]

I am certainly against burning any type of book, this should have been taken care of in another way though any type of missionary is forbidden in Israel and those who do it should stand for a trial.

[jokuvaan]

As far as I understand main Christianity line is that bible is simply a book, not worship object so people couldnt care less if some burn them.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

any type of missionary is forbidden in Israel and those who do it should stand for a trial.

What sort of BS law is that? I thought Israel was a free country, not freakin Saudi Arabia...

[Kampfbaer]

I´m so outraged and hurt in my religious feelings, that I´m going to start wasting the neighbourhood right after finishing dinner!

[Mu-Meson]

Smart thing to do would have been to collect them all and then air drop them over Gaza or something.

[frenchy]

Megaraptor;3261780']What sort of BS law is that? I thought Israel was a free country, not freakin Saudi Arabia...

It's free, if it was the case, we would have heard that a lot of missionaries are in prison.

[Laworkerbee]

Some books we burned by idiots, lets not turn it into more than that.

[TheStorm]

Some books we burned by idiots, lets not turn it into more than that.

Like my OP said, what I care about is the fact that the burning was actively organized and carried out by a public official. That sh!t shouldn't happen in a free, democratic society. I expected better from Israel.

[Pars]

any type of missionary is forbidden in Israel and those who do it should stand for a trial.

Really? Wow.. Just like Iran then p-)

[frenchy]

Like my OP said, what I care about is the fact that the burning was actively organized and carried out by a public official. That sh!t shouldn't happen in a free, democratic society. I expected better from Israel.

You can find extremists in each country.

[Hollis]

Like my OP said, what I care about is the fact that the burning was actively organized and carried out by a public official. That sh!t shouldn't happen in a free, democratic society. I expected better from Israel.


I agree with your sentiments, but that comes with having a free society. People are free to do things even if they piss off other people. Just another act of uncontrolled stupidity.

[TheStorm]

You can find extremists in each country.

Let's not be disingenuous. Read my post again. The idea that a deputy mayor would have an idea this over-the-top and ridiculous to some controversial books is amazing. Not expected behavior from a public official in a free society, extremist or not. Or Yehuda isn't exactly a tiny backwater, either.

[TheStorm]

People are free to do things even if they piss off other people.

Well, not if you're an elected official. I can't see how this could be acceptable behavior by the authorities in a country that protects freedom of religion. He even had Orthodox students collecting the books, not a neutral party like the police.

[Atlantic Friend]

So, someone trying to convert an Israeli citizen to a non-Judaic faith goes to jail ? It's state-enforced religion ?

[Mr.Flint]

Very interesting post, showing your depth of tolerence and true "live and let live" spirit, I think you just proved how shallow and uneducated YOU are.
Really? and what was so shallow and uneducated from me?
Is it my fault that Messianic "Jews" missionaries lack the knowledge of the basics? Is it my fault that Messianic "Jews" missionaries target specifically jews? Is it my fault that their belief in Jesus is a direct contradiction of the basic identification of the messiah according to the Jewish law?

As a jew im against all sorts of proselyting.

[frenchy]

I'm against all form of proselyting too.
Because soon or later, we have crusaders or jihadists who kill, to bring people to their own religion.

And of course, we can find people who are violent and kill those proselytes like afghans did to korean missionaries.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I'm against all form of proselyting too.
Because soon or later, we have crusaders or jihadists who kill, to bring people to their own religion.


Why are you against free speech? I mean, I can see being against forced conversion, but how does that translate to being against someone telling other people about their religion?

[Peris]

here in Greece proselyting is illegal but we have Jehovah ''witnesses'' giving magazines and leaflets and trying to convert us and the best is that they refuse to serve in the armed forces when others bust their asses to the borders. Now what should we do with them?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

here in Greece proselyting is illegal but we have Jehovah ''witnesses'' giving magazines and leaflets and trying to convert us and the best is that they refuse to serve in the armed forces when others bust their asses to the borders. Now what should we do with them?

Convert to an all-volunteer military and stop making ridiculous and offensive laws that restrict freedom of speech?

[Mr.Flint]

Megaraptor;3262191']Convert to an all-volunteer military and stop making ridiculous and offensive laws that restrict freedom of speech?
Do you believe the Phelps have a right to protest funerals?
There should be no right to proselyte, because imho its a violation of rights of the target person.
And i dont think proselyting should be covered by freedom of speech.

[Moledet]

So, someone trying to convert an Israeli citizen to a non-Judaic faith goes to jail ? It's state-enforced religion ?
No, the law goes as following:
Anyone that promises any type of payment (cash, goods) for someone in case he converts is expected to up to 5 years in prison. Anyone that converts a minor (under the age of 18) can be given 6 months in prison. In all other cases it's legal. Doesn't matter which religion he's trying to convert someone to or from.

Each should believe in his own faith and not have other people, religions and cults pressure to convert him and no matter whether the missionary is done by Jews, Christians or Bahais.

[Peris]

Megaraptor;3262191']Convert to an all-volunteer military and stop making ridiculous and offensive laws that restrict freedom of speech?

can we afford the all volunteer army in that numbers? in our military history war and army duty was the privilege and duty for all citizens and every major battle was won like that with the nation in arms. As for laws restricting the freedom of ''speech'' why don't you see my rights violated when i have to be exposed in border duty and live fire exercises while the yehoveh people enjoy the luxury and security i provide?


:)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2071/2259196860_b025f21a8a_o.jpg

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Do you believe the Phelps have a right to protest funerals?

Yes.


There should be no right to proselyte, because imho its a violation of rights of the target person.

In what way? Is hearing someone express a political opinion that you don't like also a violation of your rights?


And i dont think proselyting should be covered by freedom of speech.

What good is freedom of speech if you only allow speech that you like?

[Moledet]

The right for privacy, the right for a good name (not to be slandered) and honor of the dead can have higher priority over the freedom of speech. You know, that right isn't the only one around and isn't the most important one either.

[Zeev]

No, Messianics are Christians. Orthodox Jews follows Judaism. Two different religions.

so, by definition, the term "Messianic Jews" have no sense.

Judaism and Christianism had been separated since a long time, so you can't claim to be from the both, you had to make a choice, because these are two distinct religions with distinct rules and rituals, exept if of course, you make your own "cocktail" and create one more "bibic" religion.. sorry! I mean, sect... p-)

[eskachig]

The Christian and Jewish texts are neigh inseparable; burning one and not the other: "don't make no sense (hence the "proxy" caveat)." I believe most people, given the chance to think independently, come to that conclusion. That is what I was speaking to.It's very much a one way relationship. I imagine that Orthodox jews view the new testament like modern day fundamentalist Christians view the Mormon bible.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The right for privacy, the right for a good name (not to be slandered) and honor of the dead can have higher priority over the freedom of speech. You know, that right isn't the only one around and isn't the most important one either.

I don't see how having people tell you about their religion infringes on any of these rights.

Only people who are insecure in their own religious beliefs have a problem with hearing about other people's.

[Moledet]

Megaraptor;3262512']I don't see how having people tell you about their religion infringes on any of these rights.

Only people who are insecure in their own religious beliefs have a problem with hearing about other people's.
I was referring to the funerals protests, calling the family members and the dead in names is slander and coming over uninvited to the funeral does hurt privacy and the public feelings.

[Hollis]

so, by definition, the term "Messianic Jews" have no sense.

Judaism and Christianism had been separated since a long time, so you can't claim to be from the both, you had to make a choice, because these are two distinct religions with distinct rules and rituals, exept if of course, you make your own "cocktail" and create one more "bibic" religion.. sorry! I mean, sect... p-)


Zeev, the word "Jew" can have a dual meaning. One means ethnic group, the other religion. Messianic Jews are Christian Jews. They try to worship in a fashion similar to Judaism. The Premise is to worship like the Jews who followed Jesus did in the 1st century Israel versus the way Christianity developed in Hellenistic Europe.

[IraGlacialis]

I doubt it, the Evangelical-types love the Jews now because of all that rapture crap.
Correction: They love that the state of Israel is being set up. All the more they want is for the Dome of the Rock to be demolised for the new Temple.
Once the Rapture happens, the "Christ-killers" won't be saved, and will burn in Hell with the "Muhammadeans", "Papist Dogs", "God-hating secularists", and other "pagans idolators".

[Mr.Flint]

Megaraptor;3262512']I don't see how having people tell you about their religion infringes on any of these rights.

Only people who are insecure in their own religious beliefs have a problem with hearing about other people's.
When some wanker stops me on the street, or knocks on my door and starts blabbering and shoving his pamphlets in my face, thats intrusion of my privacy.

And for the record it is usually those who are trying to proselyte to me who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they feel the need to prove it to others.'

They want to tell others about their beliefs? do it in a specifically designated place, such as a church or religious center.

[Kaplanr]

Correction: They love that the state of Israel is being set up. All the more they want is for the Dome of the Rock to be demolised for the new Temple.
Once the Rapture happens, the "Christ-killers" won't be saved, and will burn in Hell with the "Muhammadeans", "Papist Dogs", "God-hating secularists", and other "pagans idolators".

Thank you but I prefer "well-poisoner" or "Global interest rate setter" to "Christ Killer". What you say is true, but aren't there supposed to be something like 3-4 dozen of us left when it happens?

[Hollis]

When some wanker stops me on the street, or knocks on my door and starts blabbering and shoving his pamphlets in my face, thats intrusion of my privacy.

And for the record it is usually those who are trying to proselyte to me who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they feel the need to prove it to others.'

They want to tell others about their beliefs? do it in a specifically designated place, such as a church or religious center.


I happen to enjoy that, being a student of theology/philosophy of religions it allows me a great opportunity to discuss various theological issues........... sad part they never come back.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

When some wanker stops me on the street, or knocks on my door and starts blabbering and shoving his pamphlets in my face, thats intrusion of my privacy.

Do you feel the same way when a political campaigner does the same thing?

[Mr.Flint]

I happen to enjoy that, being a student of theology/philosophy of religions it allows me a great opportunity to discuss various theological issues........... sad part they never come back.
It is nice when they are atleast educated, hence why i said that Jehova's Witnesses are amusing.



Megaraptor;3262662']Do you feel the same way when a political campaigner does the same thing?
As a matter of fact i do feel the same way.

[Lambert58]

Religions :roll:
For weak spirits. ^^

failure to commit yourself to a belief is true weakness.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

As a matter of fact i do feel the same way.


So...why should other people's right to express their opinions be curtailed because it makes you uncomfortable?

[WKD]

I wonder if there`ll be as much an uproar from people on this site about this compared to if it had been muslims who did the burning.

Most christians I'd hazard really don't give a **** if you burn some bibles. This wouldn't be the first time it has happened in the world. Don't expect riots and murder over it you know?


Very interesting post, showing your depth of tolerence and true "live and let live" spirit, I think you just proved how shallow and uneducated YOU are.

Yeah, shallow and uneducated because he doesn't like ****heads turning up on his door and telling him what to believe. Thanks for sharing.


Your whole cavalier attitude not only about Messianic Jews but your also including others beliefs in your "they are more fun" statement just shows to me how little respect you have for other people if they don't believe as you do. Ergo, shallow and uneducated.

Waaaaaah.


Thank you but I prefer "well-poisoner" or "Global interest rate setter" to "Christ Killer". What you say is true, but aren't there supposed to be something like 3-4 dozen of us left when it happens?

Goddamn did you make me laugh.

[gilgoul]

Like my OP said, what I care about is the fact that the burning was actively organized and carried out by a public official. That sh!t shouldn't happen in a free, democratic society. I expected better from Israel.

I have to say that I share completely your pov here.
I as an Israeli jew feel ashamed and angry at those morons.
What is their problem, do they doubt their faith they so ostensibly and publicly practice?
I have read and read all the books finding their roots in Abraham's legacy (torah/New testament/koran) on an almost daily basis for studies purpose (becoming a tour guide in Israel), and if I can recognize the wisdom displayed in the books that are not a part of my religion's canon, I don't feel in anyway changed nor attracted to any other religion than mine.

This incident shouldn't be blown out of proportions, and the Messianic Jews, or Jews for Jesus are they are known here, should know better than going and proselytizing in an Orthodox city, but this in anyway shouldn't be an excuse for the despicable act of those morons.

[Snoshi]

This incident shouldn't be blown out of proportions, and the Messianic Jews, or Jews for Jesus are they are known here, should know better than going and proselytizing in an Orthodox city, but this in anyway shouldn't be an excuse for the despicable act of those morons.

So true....

[Peris]

i was surprised to know that these Messianic Jews exist in that numbers. Do they have Jesus icons inside the temples?

[LRPV]

I happen to enjoy that, being a student of theology/philosophy of religions it allows me a great opportunity to discuss various theological issues........... sad part they never come back.
:) So you have invited Mormons into your home for a chat? Did you feel the cheerful vibe as they thought they had kicked a goal, only to realize by the decor (religious artefacts) they didn't want to be there anymore?
...said the spider to the fly...p-)

[Telmar]

Stupid action on the part of the mayor, especially considering the fact the proselyting is not exactly legal there.
but Messianic "Jews" piss me off, i constantly get those loons on my doorstep, and everytime im trying to dispute with them, i realize how shallow and uneducated they are... Jehova's Witnesses are so much more amusing.

Nice generalization.

[Warlord]

As far as I understand main Christianity line is that bible is simply a book, not worship object so people couldnt care less if some burn them.


Yes, to me, the Bible is just a book. However it is what the book symbolizes. If you burn the book by accident like that. It doesn't bother me at all. If you burn it with the intent of insulting my beliefs as symbolized by the book of the Bible, that's a different story.

[WKD]

Yes, to me, the Bible is just a book. However it is what the book symbolizes. If you burn the book by accident like that. It doesn't bother me at all. If you burn it with the intent of insulting my beliefs as symbolized by the book of the Bible, that's a different story.

Do you think it's worth killing/maiming/fighting/going to jail over though? Because if the big guy exists, I doubt he really cares.

[Reaver]

Every country have ****tard religious hard liners. Some just have more in government then others. from the sound of it , being a secular jew or an atheist is not popular either.

If they had a universal draft, it mite help end some of the discrimination issues

[Stan187]

Considering the majority of the population are secular Jews, I'd say its quite popular.

[Reaver]

Considering the majority of the population are secular Jews, I'd say its quite popular.

I was referring to the hardliners

[Warlord]

Do you think it's worth killing/maiming/fighting/going to jail over though? Because if the big guy exists, I doubt he really cares.


Do you see many Catholics blowing themselves up or murdering some hapless Arab filmakers?

[Stan187]

Do you see many Catholics blowing themselves up or murdering some hapless Arab filmakers?

What are you blabbing about?

[Stan187]

In Israel you can believe in any religion you want to, its still free, you're just not supposed to go around thumping your bible/koran/etc.. on anyone else's doorstep. Which sounds like an upgrade to me from the US, where every week Jehovah's Witnesses are at my door trying to bring me into the world of truth out of the darkness.

[Warlord]

What are you blabbing about?


Follow the quotes. It was a in response to the other guy. Read.

[Atlantic Friend]

No, the law goes as following:
Anyone that promises any type of payment (cash, goods) for someone in case he converts is expected to up to 5 years in prison. Anyone that converts a minor (under the age of 18) can be given 6 months in prison. In all other cases it's legal. Doesn't matter which religion he's trying to convert someone to or from.

Each should believe in his own faith and not have other people, religions and cults pressure to convert him and no matter whether the missionary is done by Jews, Christians or Bahais.

Ah, I see. It's more like protecting people from money-making schemes and sects. That I couldn't approve more. What kind of conversion is "join my church and get money" anyway ?

Thanks, Moledet ! I was genuinely at a loss.

[IsraDani]

the jewish guys light up a fire for lag baOmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_Ba%27omer) with the propaganda brochures collected after months of harassment.Its also questionable if they did it on purpose or not (you need a lot of paper for an entire week of fires).Then ma'ariv came and inflated the whole story for sell more copies as usual.Welcome to reality.

[WKD]

Do you see many Catholics blowing themselves up or murdering some hapless Arab filmakers?

Then what exactly does this mean?


If you burn it with the intent of insulting my beliefs as symbolized by the book of the Bible, that's a different story.

Who cares why they burn the book. It's just a book. Their intention has zero net effect.

[Warlord]

Then what exactly does this mean?



Who cares why they burn the book. It's just a book. Their intention has zero net effect.


I cannot be more clearer on what I said. If you don't understand it, then my English is really bad.

[Stan187]

I cannot be more clearer on what I said. If you don't understand it, then my English is really bad.

What you said is unclear because you seem to have lost sight of history, and all the **** that the Catholics have done themselves, even fairly recently. Remember that whole Northern Ireland thing?

[vinny_121_ND]

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

By LAURIE COPANS – 5 hours ago
TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a ****y-trapped gift basket sent to his family. The explosion severed two toes, damaged his hearing and harmed a promising basketball career.
Police say they are still searching for the assailants. But to the Ortiz family the motive of the attackers is clear: The Ortizes are Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
Israel's tiny community of Messianic Jews, a mixed group of 10,000 people who include the California-based Jews for Jesus, complains of threats, harassment and police indifference.
The March 20 bombing was the worst incident so far. In October, a mysterious fire damaged a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews, and last month ultra-Orthodox Jews torched a stack of Christian holy books distributed by missionaries.
Israel's Foreign Ministry and two chief rabbis were quick to condemn the burning, but the Ortiz family says vigorous police action is needed.
"I believe that it will happen again, if not to us, then to other Messianic believers," said Ami's mother, Leah Ortiz, a 54-year-old native of South Orange, N.J.
Proselytizing is strongly discouraged in Israel, a state that was established for a people that suffered centuries of persecution for not accepting Jesus and has little tolerance for missionary work.
At the same time, Israel has warm relations with U.S. evangelical groups, which strongly support its cause, but these generally refrain from proselytizing inside Israel. Even the Mormon church, which has mission work at its core worldwide, agreed when it opened a campus in Jerusalem to refrain from missionary activity.
"Historically the core of Christianity ... was 'convert or die,' so it was seen and is still seen as an assault on Jewish existence itself," said Rabbi David Rosen, who oversees interfaith affairs for the American Jewish Committee. "When you are called to join another religion, you are being called on to betray your people."
Messianic Jews consider themselves Jewish, observing the holy days and reciting many of the same prayers. The Ortiz family lights candles on the Jewish Sabbath, shuns pork and eats matzoth on Passover.
Ami Ortiz, interviewed at the Tel Aviv hospital where he is being treated, comes across as no different from any Jewish Israeli his age. He's a sabra, or native-born Israeli, who speaks English with a Hebrew accent, has an older brother in an elite Israeli army unit and was hoping to join the youth squad of Maccabi Tel Aviv, a league-topping basketball team.
But his religion also holds that one can embrace Jesus — Ami calls him by his Hebrew name, Yeshua — as the Messiah and remain Jewish. Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, believe that the Messiah has yet to come, that he will do so only when he chooses, and that any attempt to pre-empt his coming is a grievous sin.
Rabbi Sholom Dov Lifschitz, head of the ultra-Orthodox Yad Leahim organization that campaigns against missionary activity in Israel, says Messianic Jews give him "great pain."
"They are provoking ... it's a miracle that worse things don't happen," he said.
Messianic activists appear to have had some success among couples with one non-Jewish spouse, as well as immigrants from Ethiopia and the former Soviet Union who have loose ties to Judaism.
Or Yehuda, a town in central Israel with many immigrants as well as ultra-Orthodox Jews including a deputy mayor, Uri Aharon, was the scene of the May 15 book-burning.
Ami Dahan, a local police official, says hundreds of Christian religious books were burned on May 15 in an empty lot in town. He said Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon, has been questioned on suspicion that he instructed youths to collect the books from homes where they had been distributed and told them to burn them.
Aharon denies ordering the burning. He says the books were collected from a neighborhood of mostly Ethiopian immigrants who are easily persuaded by missionaries.
"There are three missionaries who live and work in the town, and every Saturday they take people to worship and try to brainwash them," Aharon said.
Many Messianic Jews say they recognize the sensitivities involved and do not distribute religious material or conduct high-profile campaigns. But Aharon noted a recent "Jews for Jesus" campaign with signs on buses that equated two similar Hebrew words — "Jesus" and "salvation." Public outrage quickly forced the bus company to remove the signs.
Lawyer Dan Yakir of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel says the law allows missionaries to preach provided they don't offer gifts or money or go after minors.
"It is their right according to freedom of religion to maintain their religious lifestyle and disseminate their beliefs, including through literature," he said.
But the obstacles are evident, raised not just from religious activists but by the state.
Calev Myers, a lawyer who represents Messianic Jews, said he has fought 200 legal cases in the past two years. Most involve authorities' attempts to close down houses of worship, revoke the citizenship of believers or refuse to register their children as Israelis. In one case, Israel has accused a German religion student of missionary activity and has tried — so far unsuccessfully — to deport her.
In incidents of violence, police are reluctant to press charges, Myers said.
The book-burning caused shock among U.S. evangelicals.
Dave Parsons, spokesman of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, which represents evangelical Christian communities, said the test would be how vigorously authorities pursued the case.
"We believe there is a link to a series of incidents here in the land that involve harassment, intimidation and physical violence," he said.
The Ortiz family moved from the United States to Israel in 1985, qualifying as immigrants under Israel's Law of Return because Leah, the mother, is Jewish. In 1989 they moved into Ariel, a Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and established a small Messianic group which now numbers 60, most of them immigrants from the former Soviet Union, according to David Ortiz, the pastor and Ami's father.
He said that he built the community through conversations with friends and neighbors, but did not actually go door-to-door distributing religious material to strangers in the traditional sense of missionary work. David Ortiz says he has also proselytized in the Palestinian areas — prompting Islamic leaders there to warn against contact with him. Ortiz said he had "no problem" if Messianic Jews discuss their religious views with others and persuade them to believe in Jesus.
When the family began holding study sessions, a rabbi warned Ortiz not to speak about Jesus outside the home.
In 2005, fliers were distributed in Ariel warning that there were believers of Jesus in the community. One day, two men wearing the black skullcaps of Orthodox Jews knocked on the door and photographed Ortiz when he answered. Recently the photo turned up on a flier with the family's address.
When the basket was left at the door Ami wasn't surprised, since it was Purim, a holiday when Jews exchange gifts.
"I opened it up and I heard it and then I was on the floor and I didn't hear anything, I didn't see anything," the lanky boy recalls.
Ami was in critical condition, with severe gashes in his legs and feet and one that just missed his jugular vein. His tryout for the Maccabi team was canceled.
His family initially suspected Palestinians; Ariel is in the heart of the West Bank and surrounded by Palestinian towns and villages and, like most Jewish settlements, has been the target of Palestinian attacks. But police immediately told him the bomb was more sophisticated than those made by Palestinians since it contained plastic explosives.
"Nobody ever suspected that a Jewish group would do such a thing, that they would put a bomb in somebody else's house," David Ortiz said.
Police have since told the family that Palestinians were not behind the bombing. The family has footage from a security camera of a man delivering the package, according to a person close to the family who spoke on condition of anonymity because police say disclosing details could harm the investigation.
Police spokesman Danny Poleg would not discuss the case, saying only that no arrests have been made.
Meanwhile, the Messianic Jewish believers are taking no chances. These days they worship under the protection of an armed guard.



http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g27g5e76FR04lo_ACObFJRCE-SAwD91EISDO0

I'm not a expert in Judaism, but all I can say is, I hope that boy recovers from that PE bomb.

[IDF_TANKER]

We already have thread regarding this issue here:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=134582

Perhaps a merge is in order. Modes?

[Moledet]

Sorry, but they bring it upon themselves. You go around preaching and trying to convert people, in a more specific context try and force Jews to believe in Jesus, than you might piss people off, we have a hot tamper.
I'd personally punch a guy that tries it on me, we had enough of this sh!t in the diaspora.

[little icebear]

Sorry, but they bring it upon themselves. You go around preaching and trying to convert people, in a more specific context try and force Jews to believe in Jesus, than you might piss people off, we have a hot tamper.
I'd personally punch a guy that tries it on me, we had enough of this sh!t in the diaspora.

You´re free not to listen to them just like I don´t care about christian scientists or any other religious idiot who wants to convert me to anything.

Posting something like "they bring it upon themselves" into a thread about a boy, injured in a terrorist attack is disgusting.

[Moledet]

You´re free not to listen to them just like I don´t care about christian scientists or any other religious idiot who wants to convert me to anything.

Posting something like "they bring it upon themselves" into a thread about a boy, injured in a terrorist attack is disgusting.
Hey, I don't support any terror attack but you play with fire you might get burnt.
I know a guy that entered a Haredi place and gave them leaflets about secularism and his car was stoned, he knew what he'll be getting same with Israelis entering Palestinian villages and getting lynched-they are idiots.

[muttbutt]

Hey, I don't support any terror attack but you play with fire you might get burnt.
I know a guy that entered a Haredi place and gave them leaflets about secularism and his car was stoned, he knew what he'll be getting same with Israelis entering Palestinian villages and getting lynched-they are idiots.
uh...they were sent the package, he didn't walk into anyone elses space.....and of course you support it, you just said they brought it on themselves, what's the diffrence between that and some prick in a Mosque saying Muslims should hurt their neighbours?

We get Jehovah's witness's ect coming around to my house, I disagree with them.....doesn't mean I'm going to blow them up or think it's ok for someone else to do it....what's the term yanks use..."ah yes, your an "enabler" for douchbag's

[Snoshi]

We get Jehovah's witness's ect coming around to my house, I disagree with them.....doesn't mean I'm going to blow them up or think it's ok for someone else to do it....what's the term yanks use..."ah yes, your an "enabler" for douchbag's

Neather will "normal" Israelis... But we are talking about ultra-religious nuts who spend most of their time reading a book and protesting, while other Israelis serve in army and work.

[muttbutt]

Neather will "normal" Israelis... But we are talking about ultra-religious nuts who spend most of their time reading a book and protesting, while other Israelis serve in army and work.Fair enough...I just didn't like the rationalising of this sort of thing...if you can be ok with this, what next?

[Moledet]

uh...they were sent the package, he didn't walk into anyone elses space.....and of course you support it, you just said they brought it on themselves, what's the diffrence between that and some prick in a Mosque saying Muslims should hurt their neighbours?

We get Jehovah's witness's ect coming around to my house, I disagree with them.....doesn't mean I'm going to blow them up or think it's ok for someone else to do it....what's the term yanks use..."ah yes, your an "enabler" for douchbag's
The family didn't get the package by accident, I guess they are active in missionary.

The main difference between you and I is that I am Jewish and not a diaspora one, I won't take this type of sh!t like my ancestors had to in Europe. They want to live here than it's fine by me but respect people's feelings, respect our history.

[muck]

What about respecting the human right on freedom of religion? If they approach an individual against his will he is free to take legal procedures against them, but to lay hands on them is still wrong, and to defend such acts true to the motto 'you'll reap what you sow' is wrong as well.
I'm somewhat shocked by the fact that a community that has suffered so much because of its religion let others suffer because of theirs.

[muttbutt]

edit...........

[muttbutt]

The family didn't get the package by accident, I guess they are active in missionary.

The main difference between you and I is that I am Jewish and not a diaspora one, I won't take this type of sh!t like my ancestors had to in Europe. They want to live here than it's fine by me but respect people's feelings, respect our history.

No I think the main difference between you an I is, I couldn't give **** what someone's religion is, , but it's cool you think this is alright.....have a great day...

we usually ban terrorist supporting nut job's on here....let's hope your next up for a ticket to ride...

[Moledet]

What about respecting the human right on freedom of religion? If they approach an individual against his will he is free to take legal procedures against them, but to lay hands on them is still wrong, and to defend such acts true to the motto 'you'll reap what you sow' is wrong as well.
I'm somewhat shocked by the fact that a community that has suffered so much because of its religion let others suffer because of theirs.
They don't suffer because of their religion, they 'suffer' because they go and anger people. As I said, I am not going to enter a Palestinian village because I will most likely get lynched-they won't get lynched doing missionary work but they might get a violent reaction.
The fact that they are the weak ones so they don't go around forcing everyone to convert but instead use the cover of democracy to do it, doesn't make it any better.

[Thor]

Sorry, but they bring it upon themselves. You go around preaching and trying to convert people, in a more specific context try and force Jews to believe in Jesus, than you might piss people off, we have a hot tamper.
I'd personally punch a guy that tries it on me, we had enough of this sh!t in the diaspora.
I hope all of the above is a really bad joke.

The correct answer if someone approach you is "no thanks". Seems like you could learn a few things from our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Moledet]

I hope all of the above is a really bad joke.

The correct answer if someone approach you is "no thanks". Seems like you could learn a few things from our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Yeah well, from my experience outside Israel they don't leave you after 'no thanks'. Sometimes it's nice to make fun of them and tell jokes about them and take pictures, in other times they are very annoying.

[muck]

They don't suffer because of their religion, they 'suffer' because they go and anger people.
That would be even worse, but what you've said indicates that they encounter violence for "trying" to make people convert, and that would make them suffer for their religion, wouldn't it?
Many religions do know that task to persuade others to convert to one's faith.

The fact that they are the weak ones so they don't go around forcing everyone to convert but instead use the cover of democracy to do it, doesn't make it any better.
You simply impute that they would do that if they could. Fears and presumptions lead to discrimination, it's the same why normal jews have suffered so much.

[vinny_121_ND]

uh...they were sent the package, he didn't walk into anyone elses space.....and of course you support it, you just said they brought it on themselves, what's the diffrence between that and some prick in a Mosque saying Muslims should hurt their neighbours?

We get Jehovah's witness's ect coming around to my house, I disagree with them.....doesn't mean I'm going to blow them up or think it's ok for someone else to do it....what's the term yanks use..."ah yes, your an "enabler" for douchbag's

It's just beyond belief that some people would send someone a bomb package based on his religious beliefs. A good neighbour will always just go over and discuss the problems and future conflicts can be avoided. This type of attack is purely the work of the devil.

And I agree, when Jehovah's witness come over every third sunday, they usually wake me out of bed and just say sorry and drop off their pamphlets. They have no intention of hurting me, and never have I thought of hurting them.

[Mr.Flint]

Messianic Jews are in a sense predators, they always try to pick the easiest target for conversion (hell the article confirms it!) the less the target knows of real judaism the better.

Is it ok to attack them? hell no! whoever sent them that bomb deserves ass rape.
Yet one cannot ignore the fact that they know that their missionary work is not welcome, yet they continue to do so.
Missionary work is a violation of freedom of religion rather than a part of it, IMHO. If someone wants to learn of another religion to convert into it he should do that on his own, go into a temple or community centre. it should not happen because some jackass on the street gave them a sermon and a pamphlet, or they saw an ad on a bus or in a newspaper.

Vinny - notice the article actually states that they were asked to stop proselyting...

Ads of it on buses, sorry but thats beyond not just insensitive but insulting too...

They keep forgetting or ignoring our history with Christianity....

[pacifist]

Go ahead and burn all the bibles.

[vinny_121_ND]

Vinny - notice the article actually states that they were asked to stop proselyting...


I know, it's just heartbreaking to hear of such attack. Yes, it is stupid to attempt to convert jews in israel, and common sense is needed.

[LineDoggie]

Megaraptor;3262384']Yes.



In what way? Is hearing someone express a political opinion that you don't like also a violation of your rights?



What good is freedom of speech if you only allow speech that you like?


Why should anyone have the right to protest someones funeral?

Be they Military or Civilian, that is not the proper place or time.

[little icebear]

So as a Jew I suck arse because of the actrions of a minority?

You don´t. I wanted to express my dislike torwards religion in general and not torwards individuals. Apart from greed, religious ideas and sensitivities are No.1 reason for violence throughout mankinds history.

If you feel insulted as a person, please accept my appology. However, my attitude torwards religious lunacy stays.

[Bushranger]

So as a Jew I suck arse because of the actrions of a minority? Think about the ramifications of your comments... a soldier is convicted of rape, do we then jail the entire army?

Where have i made a particular comment about being a jew or that they suck arse as you put it,i dont know where you got this from or how you interpreted it that way at all. Jews dont bother me at all far from it. I was refering to religion & thats all of them, why cant people just believe what they want & not hassle or try & change anothers thoughts or beliefs, i dont do so i dont expect others to do it to me.

[LRPV]

You don´t. I wanted to express my dislike torwards religion in general and not torwards individuals. Apart from greed, religious ideas and sensitivities are No.1 reason for violence throughout mankinds history.

If you feel insulted as a person, please accept my appology. However, my attitude torwards religious lunacy stays.


Where have i made a particular comment about being a jew or that they suck arse as you put it,i dont know where you got this from or how you interpreted it that way at all. Jews dont bother me at all far from it. I was refering to religion & thats all of them, why cant people just believe what they want & not hassle or try & change anothers thoughts or beliefs, i dont do so i dont expect others to do it to me.


Hollis has deleted the offensive post made by Icebear to which Bushranger stated agreement.
I don't think any rational person could condone any form of extremism, however the shotgun approach to the issue, hitting all taget sets rather than the culprits is less than helpful.

[Bushranger]

Hollis has deleted the offensive post made by Icebear to which Bushranger stated agreement.
I don't think any rational person could condone any form of extremism, however the shotgun approach to the issue, hitting all taget sets rather than the culprits is less than helpful.

If thats how it was interpreted then i didnt mean to offend anybody nor did i find Icebear comments offensive i dont believe he was attacking 1 religion but religion as a whole.

[little icebear]

i dont believe he was attacking 1 religion but religion as a whole.

And more important: I was refering to the concept of religion. That´s different from attacking human beings, IMO.

[LRPV]

If thats how it was interpreted then i didnt mean to offend anybody nor did i find Icebear comments offensive i dont believe he was attacking 1 religion but religion as a whole.

...and this is appropriate for MP.net? This comment is a bit like saying if I attack all foreigners, not just one group, its OK...

If Icebear had stated he thought the extremists were wackos, well that would be a fair call. However to denigrate all of one religion based upon a tiny minority is unreasonable. To similarly deal with all religions in that manner was simply immature flame-baiting. Do we need that here?

[Bushranger]

...and this is appropriate for MP.net? This comment is a bit like saying if I attack all foreigners, not just one group, its OK...

If Icebear had stated he thought the extremists were wackos, well that would be a fair call. However to denigrate all of one religion based upon a tiny minority is unreasonable. To similarly deal with all religions in that manner was simply immature flame-baiting. Do we need that here?

I dont want to argue with you on this LRPV nor was there any flame baiting intended, i think your reading into this to way to much. It was comments made on religion as a whole as ive said people should just believe what the want & not bother others about it, you have to agree with me there.

[Hollis]

And more important: I was refering to the concept of religion. That´s different from attacking human beings, IMO.


Maybe ask yourself what is the difference between philosophy and religion. There is none, most people are a mix. They both present a "world view". No reason to attack everyone. It still takes a person to act on any philosophical or religious view. Some people do great good other do great harm. Regardless of how a person justifies their intentions they are still the person acting on it.

[LRPV]

I dont want to argue with you on this LRPV nor was there any flame baiting intended, i think your reading into this to way to much. It was comments made on religion as a whole as ive said people should just believe what the want & not bother others about it, you have to agree with me there.

I think the point has been made by moderation that a line was crossed. As for arguing, yes we are moving OT so I agree we can leave it here.

[little icebear]

Maybe ask yourself what is the difference between philosophy and religion. There is none, most people are a mix. They both present a "world view". No reason to attack everyone. It still takes a person to act on any philosophical or religious view. Some people do great good other do great harm. Regardless of how a person justifies their intentions they are still the person acting on it.

Can´t argue with that... you´re right.

I just thought to myself, that religious ideas have way to often inspired people to do the most terrible things and typed away.

[Calanen]

"Where one burns books, one will soon burn people." --Heinrich Heine

[Mr.Flint]

"Where one burns books, one will soon burn people." --Heinrich Heine
Very true, the morons who did this are ignorant fools

Rebbe Nachman said: `Dont be a fanatic. Serving God is not fanaticism. Those who run after worldly goods are the true fanatics. The world will consider you a lunatic if you abandon all worldliness in your quest for the Godly. This is said to be fanaticism. Yet even this is not necessary. You can serve God with restraint' (Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom p.159).
Rebbe Nachman cautioned not to be overly stringent in any observance. While he did endorse the practice of each individual choosing one observance to keep strictly with all its fine points, he stressed that even with this observance one should not be abnormally strict to the point of foolishness. Regarding the other commandments, he said there was no need to observe them with any unnecessary stringency at all. `It would be enough,' he said, `if we were worthy of keeping all the Torah's commandments according to the law, without going beyond it.... True devotion consists mainly of simplicity and sincerity. Pray much, study much Torah, do many good deeds. Do not worry yourself with unnecessary restrictions. Just follow the way of our forefathers. `The Torah was not given to ministering angels' ' (Berakhot 25b)(Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom pp. 370f).

[eugenlitwin]

Israel hit by Bible burning row

Messianic Jews in Israel say they want an inquiry into the burning of hundreds of copies of the New Testament by Orthodox Jews in Or Yehuda last week.

The books were given to the town's Ethiopian Jews by the Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus as a saviour.

Or Yehuda's deputy mayor says he received complaints about the books, and arranged for them to be burnt.

He has now apologised after his actions have been compared to those of Nazis who burnt Jewish holy scriptures.

Proselytizing to Ethiopian Jews is sensitive because historically they were the target of missionaries who converted many to Christianity in Ethiopia - though they later argued the conversion was forced and they had never really abandoned their Jewish faith, the BBC's Frances Harrison says.

The dispute is revealing growing tension between Messianic Jews and their Orthodox opponents who do not recognise them as Jews, our correspondent adds.

'Dumped and burned'

Many of the details of exactly what happened in Or Yehuda are now disputed.

But the deputy mayor says Messianic Jewish missionaries had targeted an area of the town where many Ethiopian Jews live, distributing packages containing New Testaments and pamphlets.

He says he received complaints and then drove around the area with a loudspeaker urging people to hand over the material to Orthodox religious students who went door-to-door collecting it.

The books were then dumped in a pile and burned.

Messianic Jews complain of institutionalised discrimination and are demanding all those involved be put on trial.

Meanwhile, Orthodox Jews are applauding the destruction of texts they say urge Jews to convert.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7413134.stm

Published: 2008/05/21 15:45:59 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

In reference to the bolded parts: what the hell? Who is the deputy mayor (or any public official) to go around collecting and burning books because they piss some people off?

haw´d react G W BUsh and his brothers in Jesus C. on this performance?