Dirty Dozens

[Herrmannek]

Out of random... Anyone know of any acts of bravery or any other outstanding soldiership by military convicted criminals or penal companies? I want only positive examples...

[Laworkerbee]

Question along the same lines, were the Soviets the only army to use penal units in WWII?

[Hutz]

Out of random... Anyone know of any acts of bravery or any other outstanding soldiership by military convicted criminals or penal companies? I want only positive examples...

Here you go.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2014947/posts

Nothing specific, but along the same lines.


Winning: Bad Boys Make Better Soldiers
Strategy Page ^ | May 12, 2008 | Jim Dunnigan

Posted on May 12, 2008 5:31:21 PM by billorites

Recently, there were a number of media stories about how the U.S. Army has been recruiting more men with criminal records. When pressed about this, the army released a report showing that recruits let in via "moral waivers" made better combat soldiers. That is, they got promoted faster, re-enlisted at a higher rate, got more awards for valor and were noted for superior combat performance. They were also better educated, and more likely to talk back. A slightly higher percentage of them got punished for that.

All this is nothing new. It was noted as far back as World War II, when detailed records of troop performance were first compiled and analyzed. A disproportionate number of troops that excelled in combat, also had disciplinary problems when off the battlefield. The conventional wisdom was that someone with a "taste for combat" also lacked respect for authority. Research since World War II has shown that risk-taking behavior is the basis of brave acts, as well as criminal ones, drug use, and addiction to things like gambling and dangerous sports.

The U.S. Army has, for the last sixty years, turned down most recruits with a criminal record. The reason was that, since an army (especially in peacetime) depended on discipline to function, anyone who broke the law had already demonstrated problems with following orders. Before September 11, 2001, the army found that 27 percent of recruits with criminal records (and given a "moral waiver" to enlist), didn't finish their enlistment because of misconduct (refusing to obey orders, or just a bad attitude). This was twice the rate of troops who did not need a moral waiver. Back then, less than four percent of recruits got moral waivers. That usually required references from teachers, clergy or employers attesting to how the applicant had shaped up, and was worthy of acceptance. But since 2004, the percentage of recruit getting in with moral waivers has tripled to 13 percent. Yet there has not been a noticeable decline in troops quality. There is still a higher percentage of moral waiver recruits getting discharged early, but not double the rate of those without moral waivers.

The army has found ways to lower its traditional admission standards, yet still get people who can perform well in a professional force. This is not just the case with those who do poorly on written tests, or did not finish high school. It's especially the case with those allowed in on waivers. The most common items waived are medical conditions, criminal records or drug use, in that order. Last year, most of the moral waivers were for juvenile offenses. Less than one percent (511) of last years recruits (80,407) received moral waivers for adult criminal records. Keep in mind that the numbers were talking about here are small, and that the negative impact of recruits with moral waivers is basically non-existent.

Most waivers are for medical problems. For example, many urban recruits have asthma problems. If the recruit is headed for a job that does not require the kind of physical effort that low grade asthma would interfere with, a waiver would be granted. If a prospect has a low grade (no felonies) criminal record, and appears to have moved on from that sort of thing, a waiver is possible. Same with prior drug use. Prospects are made aware of the regular, unannounced, drug tests for troops on active duty. Asking for testimonials from responsible adults helps deal with those seeking moral waivers. The army also has new psychological tests that indicate those that have put their bad behavior behind them, and which haven't.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Question along the same lines, were the Soviets the only army to use penal units in WWII?

Germans used it too and so did a lot of other armies.

[Creampuff]

All this is nothing new. It was noted as far back as World War II, when detailed records of troop performance were first compiled and analyzed. A disproportionate number of troops that excelled in combat, also had disciplinary problems when off the battlefield. The conventional wisdom was that someone with a "taste for combat" also lacked respect for authority. Research since World War II has shown that risk-taking behavior is the basis of brave acts, as well as criminal ones, drug use, and addiction to things like gambling and dangerous sports.

I read something similar a while back, relating to the 28th Maori Battalion and why they made such an impact during the north African and Italian campaigns.

[el borracho]

Question along the same lines, were the Soviets the only army to use penal units in WWII?

Germany's 999th Afrika Division were part of Rommel's Afrika Korps and was made up of bewahrungsschutze (disciplinary soldiers) with regular NCOs and officers to keep them in line. From what I've read, they were used as a stopgap measure in early 1943 as regular units were being transfered out of the theater. As the Allies charged across North Africa, many of the 999th's units collapsed in combat or surrendered to the Allies. Those that made it out were later used in anti-partisan duties in the Balkans.

[Creampuff]

Wasn't there a 500 ss para battalion opperating against Titos partisans later in the war? I'm sure i seen a post or thread on MP net somewhere.

[kajser]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade

first read about it in the Sven Hassel novels...
a Waffen SS brigade(later a division) of convicts who commited major crimes in the eyes of the civilian courts. It's primary focus was anti-partisan warfare but later came in contact with the Red Army. It is among the most infamous of all Waffen-SS units of the war.
so much for positive example :/

[Billy No Mates]

The cohorts formed from criminals and freed slaves to make good Roman loses after Cannae seem to have performed well in the Punic wars .

[Herrmannek]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade

first read about it in the Sven Hassel novels...
a Waffen SS brigade(later a division) of convicts who commited major crimes in the eyes of the civilian courts. It's primary focus was anti-partisan warfare but later came in contact with the Red Army. It is among the most infamous of all Waffen-SS units of the war.
so much for positive example :/


This wasn't a positive example by even far fetch :)

Rotorhead thanks for the article...

[nemowork]

Wasn't there a 500 ss para battalion opperating against Titos partisans later in the war? I'm sure i seen a post or thread on MP net somewhere.

500ss is quite afamous unit, they were made up of soldiers who had committed disciplinary offences such as talking back to officers, outstaying leave and so on.
They were used for a glider assault of about 300 men on Tito's headquarters with about 12,000 partisans while armoured and mountain troops fought their way up!
Didnt succeed but that any of them survived is pretty amazing. They then got converted to a regular unit and have a pretty impressive combat record on the retreat to Germany.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade

first read about it in the Sven Hassel novels...
a Waffen SS brigade(later a division) of convicts who commited major crimes in the eyes of the civilian courts. It's primary focus was anti-partisan warfare but later came in contact with the Red Army. It is among the most infamous of all Waffen-SS units of the war.
so much for positive example :/

By contrst the Dirlewanger unit was made up of men who had commited criminal acts such as poachers who would make good anti-guerilla troops. it quickly became a dumping ground for anybody who felt like lying about their crimes and accepted rapists, thieves, murderers, conscripted deserters from the russians (who promptly deserted) and politicals who got sent there to get there to suffer or get killed.
The one thing you can never accuse Dirlewanger or his men of was cowardice, but they managed to include rape, theft, drunkeness and massacre a daily routine.

For a better quote than i could manage

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115887

[evilhand]

Finland had unit made up from prisoners convicted on civil crimes during the war, it was 550 men strong battalion and was comanded by lieutenant-colonel Nikke Pärmi, unit was often called eather a Black arrow or Pärmi's devils, unfortunetly i cant find anything from it in the english and i'm lousy (and litle lazy) at translating from finish to english, some body who is better than me migh want to give a try.

http://www.pkymasehist.fi/parmi.html

[rattenkrieger]

500ss is quite afamous unit, they were made up of soldiers who had committed disciplinary offences such as talking back to officers, outstaying leave and so on.
They were used for a glider assault of about 300 men on Tito's headquarters with about 12,000 partisans while armoured and mountain troops fought their way up!
Didnt succeed but that any of them survived is pretty amazing. They then got converted to a regular unit and have a pretty impressive combat record on the retreat to Germany.



By contrst the Dirlewanger unit was made up of men who had commited criminal acts such as poachers who would make good anti-guerilla troops. it quickly became a dumping ground for anybody who felt like lying about their crimes and accepted rapists, thieves, murderers, conscripted deserters from the russians (who promptly deserted) and politicals who got sent there to get there to suffer or get killed.
The one thing you can never accuse Dirlewanger or his men of was cowardice, but they managed to include rape, theft, drunkeness and massacre a daily routine.

For a better quote than i could manage

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115887


I've once found something about another infamous ss unit which fought allongside 'Dirlewanger' into the battle of Warsaw, but I never figured it out :cantbeli:

Now I don't remember the name and can't find anything directly...

I'm going to continue my search... I let you guys/girls??? know something if I manage to find something more :roll:

[Liba85]

might be Vlasov? Russian traitor general.

[nemowork]

He probably means Kaminski and the RONA brigade.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/rona.htm

[rattenkrieger]

He probably means Kaminski and the RONA brigade.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/rona.htm

Thx mate... that's the one I mentioned. I really didn't remembered the name... :oops:

[Crassus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade

first read about it in the Sven Hassel novels...
a Waffen SS brigade(later a division) of convicts who commited major crimes in the eyes of the civilian courts. It's primary focus was anti-partisan warfare but later came in contact with the Red Army. It is among the most infamous of all Waffen-SS units of the war.
so much for positive example :/

What can you say about Dirlewanger? The Guy got wounded 17th times during WWI, Spanish civil war and WWII - he was the bravest of the brave - and absolutly mad. He was too crazy to be a sociopath and too controlled to be a psychopath.

He turned his unit to his madness.