Tom Clancy wrestles with Iraq war

[2RHPZ]

Tom Clancy wrestles with Iraq war

New book co-written with war critic Gen. Anthony Zinni
Wednesday, May 26, 2004 Posted: 10:04 AM EDT (1404 GMT)

NEW YORK (AP) -- A brand name author with many admirers in the military criticized the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, citing it as proof that "good men make mistakes."
That same writer said he almost "came to blows" with a leading war supporter, former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle.
The author is Tom Clancy.
The hawkish master of such million-selling thrillers as "Patriot Games" and "The Hunt for Red October" now finds himself adding to the criticism of the Iraq war, and not only through his own comments.
His latest book, "Battle Ready," is a collaboration with another war critic, retired Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni. "Battle Ready" looks at Zinni's long military career, dating back to the Vietnam War, and includes harsh remarks by Zinni about the current conflict.
In an interview Monday with The Associated Press, Clancy and Zinni sat side by side in a hotel conference room in midtown Manhattan, mutual admirers who said they agreed on most issues, despite "one or two" spirited "discussions" during the book's planning.
Zinni has openly attacked the war, but Clancy reluctantly acknowledged his own concerns. He declined repeatedly to comment on the war, before saying that it lacked a "casus belli," or suitable provocation.
"It troubles me greatly to say that, because I've met President Bush," Clancy said. "He's a good guy. ... I think he's well-grounded, both morally and philosophically. But good men make mistakes."
'These are good guys'
"Battle Ready" was published Monday with a first printing of 438,700. It is the fourth in Clancy's "Commanders" series, in which military leaders reflect on their careers and discuss military strategy.
"In the movies, military leaders are all drunken Nazis," said Clancy, who has worked on books about retired Gen. Chuck Horner, who led U.S. Central Command Air Forces during the Gulf War, and retired Gen. Carl Stiner, whose missions included the capture of Panama leader Manuel Noriega.
"In fact, these are very bright people who regard the soldiers and Marines under them as their own kids. I thought the people needed to know about that. These are good guys, and smart guys."
While the 57-year-old Clancy is tall and thin, with bony arms and round, sunken eyes, the 60-year-old Zinni has the short, stocky build of an ex-Marine. He served as commander in chief of the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000 and as a special Middle East envoy from 2001-2003.
But even as an envoy, Zinni spoke out against invading Iraq, regarding it as disastrous for Middle East peace and a distraction from the war against terrorism. On Monday, he said getting rid of Saddam Hussein was not worth the price.
"He's a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go," Zinni said. "But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4,500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and our reputation and our image in the world, particularly in that region, shattered."

Expressing concern

In discussing the Iraq war, both Clancy and Zinni singled out the Department of Defense for criticism. Clancy recalled a prewar encounter in Washington during which he "almost came to blows" with Richard Perle, a Pentagon adviser at the time and a longtime advocate of the invasion.
"He was saying how (Secretary of State) Colin Powell was being a wuss because he was overly concerned with the lives of the troops," Clancy said. "And I said, 'Look ..., he's supposed to think that way!' And Perle didn't agree with me on that. People like that worry me."
Both Clancy and Zinni praised President Bush but would not commit to voting for him. Clancy said that voting for Sen. John Kerry, the Democrats' presumptive nominee, would be "a stretch for me," but wouldn't say that he was supporting Bush.
Zinni, a registered Republican who voted for Bush in 2000, said he could not support the president's re-election "if the current strategists in the defense department are going to be carried over."
Zinni makes a point of answering all questions, just as he prides himself on speaking out against Iraq. He called it a lesson learned from Vietnam, when "we were all imprinted with the idea that we can't let this come about again."
Clancy, meanwhile, was more close-mouthed, and not only about his views on Iraq. When asked what Jack Ryan, the fictional hero of "Patriot Games" and other Clancy novels, would have thought of the war, the author offered an enigmatic smile.
"I don't like to comment on works in progress," he said.

[throat warbler mangrove]

Hello! Anybody out there? We're talking about Tom Clancy and Anthony Zinni here. Two Republicans whom I'm sure most of you have admired over the years. And no posts on this thread from the faithfull?

In response to Zinni's courage the neo-cons accused him of anti-semitism. Reminds me of some of the lockstep responses to the anti-Iraq war posts I've seen on this site. Freedom of speach, uurrah!

[American Patriot]

Zinni the Clinton general

[throat warbler mangrove]

Oh, ok. I'll bow out now. Too much intelligence behind that statement.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Many of the military folks from my point of view are mad at the DoD. They are mostly pilots and civilians running a ground pounder's war. One by one many independent minded people are turning their back on the Bush Admin. and I am definetly one of them.

[Tane Angle]

Excuse me? Zinni the Clinton general? Because he served only under Clinton, right? Because Clinton has anything to do with Zinni's intelligence and wisdom as a general and as a man?

The man ran CENTCOM during a neglected era and served two tours in Vietnam, and was seriously wounded, just for a start.
http://peace.sandiego.edu/Zinni.shtml
He's extremely intelligent and a good man. I wouldn't say this about many people, but I would trust Anthony Zinni not just with my life, but with my people's lives. He's not partisan-he is trying to save his men's lives. That may be a foreign concept to some, but it is near the only thing that matters to at least some in this world still.

You think old salts care who the President is? I think most of us just want our men and women to get home in one piece, and barring, that, we want them to have had a fighting chance and to have died for something worthwhile, or at least for something even remotely winnable. Of course, I do not deserve to be in the same categorized "us" as Anthony Zinni, as he is a far wiser, smarter, and better man than I.

This is an unwinnable conflict, especially if we keep pursuing it as thickheadly as we have been. And what's more, we are ordering our troops to do a task that they simply have never been taught to do. It's like sending Babe Ruth out to the plate but without giving him a bat, much less teaching him the fundamentals of baseball and swinging. Our troops have tremendous potential to be skilled peace-enforcers, if only someone would teach them.

Why don't you give a brief post on why Zinni is "the Clinton general."

I'm sorry, but he's a good man, and it's a crying shame that more people aren't listening to him. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[UkrainianAmerican]

Hello! Anybody out there? We're talking about Tom Clancy and Anthony Zinni here. Two Republicans whom I'm sure most of you have admired over the years. And no posts on this thread from the faithfull?

In response to Zinni's courage the neo-cons accused him of anti-semitism. Reminds me of some of the lockstep responses to the anti-Iraq war posts I've seen on this site. Freedom of speach, uurrah!
Link please. Otherwise drop it.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Mmmmm tane-tastic.

[Tane Angle]

p-)

[throat warbler mangrove]

Hello! Anybody out there? We're talking about Tom Clancy and Anthony Zinni here. Two Republicans whom I'm sure most of you have admired over the years. And no posts on this thread from the faithfull?

In response to Zinni's courage the neo-cons accused him of anti-semitism. Reminds me of some of the lockstep responses to the anti-Iraq war posts I've seen on this site. Freedom of speach, uurrah!
Link please. Otherwise drop it.

Perhaps you would like to call him an anti-semite too?

[mocking_loudly_died]

Have I missed something, what’s this article got to do with anti-Semitic ideology?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Hello! Anybody out there? We're talking about Tom Clancy and Anthony Zinni here. Two Republicans whom I'm sure most of you have admired over the years. And no posts on this thread from the faithfull?

In response to Zinni's courage the neo-cons accused him of anti-semitism. Reminds me of some of the lockstep responses to the anti-Iraq war posts I've seen on this site. Freedom of speach, uurrah!
Link please. Otherwise drop it.

Perhaps you would like to call him an anti-semite too?
No link? STFU then.

[throat warbler mangrove]

Just to clear things up. Anthony Zinni said on national television ( I believe it was the Lehrer Newshour or the Charlie Rose Show) that when he [Zinni] questioned the Administration's Iraq war policy he was accused of anti-semitism. I have taken the liberty of calling those that called him an anti-semite Neo-Cons. I don't have transcripts.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Just to clear things up. Anthony Zinni said on national television ( I believe it was the Lehrer Newshour or the Charlie Rose Show) that when he [Zinni] questioned the Administration's Iraq war policy he was accused of anti-semitism. I have taken the liberty of calling those that called him an anti-semite Neo-Cons. I don't have transcripts.
Yeah, figured as much
Personally I think the accusers were leftwing hippies. :roll:
Shut the f*ck up now.

[throat warbler mangrove]

Just what is it you don't believe? Let me make life easier for you. I made it up, pulled it right out of the ether zone. Now you can go to sleep assured that you set things straight. Good luck.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Just what is it you don't believe? Let me make life easier for you. I made it up, pulled it right out of the ether zone. Now you can go to sleep assured that you set things straight. Good luck.
I did rip apart your accusation that Neo-Cons labeled him an antisemite.

[chauncy republicans]

I did rip apart your accusation that Neo-Cons labeled him an antisemite.
rofl Yeah!!! That was funny! rofl

[DLodge]

I did rip apart your accusation that Neo-Cons labeled him an antisemite.
Try heading here...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13549

Or here...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1141558/posts

Or here...
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/04/05/JTA_270504.html

Maybe not "neocons" but conservatives nonetheless.

[OB Kenobi]

Hello! Anybody out there? We're talking about Tom Clancy and Anthony Zinni here. Two Republicans whom I'm sure most of you have admired over the years. And no posts on this thread from the faithfull?

In response to Zinni's courage the neo-cons accused him of anti-semitism. Reminds me of some of the lockstep responses to the anti-Iraq war posts I've seen on this site. Freedom of speach, uurrah!
Link please. Otherwise drop it.

Here's one:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/431562.html

[OldRecon]

Anyone having the postal adress of this retired Marine general?
Or his lawyer, or the publisher of the book in mention.
Want to send him a post card with a big THANK YOU on the back.
Couldn't aggree more with his view on the present troubles in Iraq.
Sad he doesn't have much of a say anymore. :(

[UkrainianAmerican]

I did rip apart your accusation that Neo-Cons labeled him an antisemite.
Try heading here...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13549

Or here...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1141558/posts

Or here...
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/04/05/JTA_270504.html

Maybe not "neocons" but conservatives nonetheless.
FrontpageMag does mkae a decent case in my opinion.

[Huck Mucus]

Who gives a **** about your opinion, bitch?

See: http://www.helpkerry.org/mt/archives/000018.html
Second, he's a disaffected Bush 2000 voter who has been attacked as an anti-Semite by George Bush's neocon smear machine (I was too a few months ago by members of the Harvard Federalist Society, so I know how it feels!) I wonder if that smear machine, which now sets the GOP party line, has chased him out of the party yet. The official GOP line on Zinni, as articulated by the execrable Joel Mowbray of Townhall.com, is that Zinni is disloyal, a ninny, and an anti-Semite.
The editors of National Review agree with Mowbray that Zinni is an anti-Semite, adding also that he is "dumb," the last thing supporters of George Bush should be calling anyone. In an unsigned editorial from the January 26th issue, not available on the web, they write:
...But Zinni, who thinks it both right and obvious, must then explain why the Bush administration does not espouse it. "The more I saw, the more I thought that this was the product of the neocons who didn't understand the region . . . Somehow, the neocons captured the president. They captured the vice president." But George W. Bush identified Iraq, along with Iran and North Korea, as a dangerous rogue state when he was campaigning for office in 1999 (then he thought their missile programs would be threats). So why does Zinni think Bush was "captured"? Could it be because Bush and Cheney are Christians, while neocons are Jews? Is Zinni dumb, or worse?
See also: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20031231.shtml

There is more, if you’d do a google search and check the News Hour web site, etc.

I left this place some time ago because the moderators took unfair, politically motivated shots with no opportunity to defend. The only reason I come back is to say that I was TWM’s Recon Team Leader (he was my Assistant Team Leader) in the Marine Corps when most of you punk ****s were in diapers or not even born yet. He’s still a stud. You couldn’t carry the corn in his ****. He’s a card-carrying conservative Republican, just like Zinni. You ditto head ****s are so far gone that you can’t even listen to the voice of experience. Typical chicken hawk ****. How come you people aren’t in the sand box instead of showing us your pretty little bloomers in the cheerleader section?

You haven’t bothered to address the Zini issue on any merits.

Russian American: You talk like a pretty tough hombre, telling people to STFU. TWM would unscrew your head, **** in it, poke a hole in your skull and **** your half a brain out, if he wanted to.

TWM: Personally, I don’t know why you stuck your head back in this dump, but that’s your business. You should check out the real deal sites I told you about. Be cool, Semper Fi, I’m outa here.

[California Joe]

Funny, I agreed with him. So did Tane. .

[Tane Angle]

What'd I miss? What are we laughing at CJ?

[josh10524]

Russian American, I have a feeling you are going to still get flamed, so I'd like to point out that you did admit when the other side made a good point without more name-calling and flaming, and I for one appreciate it.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Russian American, I have a feeling you are going to still get flamed, so I'd like to point out that you did admit when the other side made a good point without more name-calling and flaming, and I for one appreciate it.
I wasn't flaming. I am just sick of people posting unsubstantiated crap.

[Felix]

Huck, well said. Semper Fi.

RussianAmerican: Who the hell are you to go around tellin people to STFU? What have you ever done?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Huck, well said. Semper Fi.

RussianAmerican: Who the hell are you to go around tellin people to STFU? What have you ever done?
If hes going to go around smearing neo-cons, he better back his **** up.
O, and STFU.

[Felix]

Why don't you back your **** up as well then? ignorant little ****

[UkrainianAmerican]

Why don't you back your **** up as well then? ignorant little ****
What **** would that be, faggot?

[Maj C]

I never worked directly for Gen Zinni - I think he was I MEF and maybe MarForSomalia when I was there though. He seems like a straight up guy and I don't think he has any particular political agenda. Most Generals try to be apolitical in there opinions because we need bipartisan support for funding.

My boss is having lunch right now with Tom Clancy and Gen Zinni here at Quantico. Probably an interesting discussion. I think many officers still support the President but have problems with the civilian leadership in the five-sided wind tunnel. I like the President - but I think his people have given him bum scoop and have left him holding the bag.

[WARPIG]

I never worked directly for Gen Zinni - I think he was I MEF and maybe MarForSomalia when I was there though. He seems like a straight up guy and I don't think he has any particular political agenda. Most Generals try to be apolitical in there opinions because we need bipartisan support for funding.

My boss is having lunch right now with Tom Clancy and Gen Zinni here at Quantico. Probably an interesting discussion. I think many officers still support the President but have problems with the civilian leadership in the five-sided wind tunnel. I like the President - but I think his people have given him bum scoop and have left him holding the bag.

I agree. If you had the mis-opportunity to to sift through the hor**** in this thread... most of us feel the same. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to add their conspiracy theory. DOD has to either have a culture change, clean house... or Bush is going to have a fight in November.
Voting for Kerry is like shooting yourself in the head because you think your train is going to wreck.

We can attack/defend the people speaking out.. drag either candidate through the mud... and argue over our Ops in Iraq forever....
... most people get that mistakes are being made and Bush is the one taking the heat for it. His mistakes.. DOD mistakes... whatever.

[Tane Angle]

True, if Bush pushed for new civilian leadership for DoD, I might think differently of him. The same goes for a lot of people on Congress; I am unimpressed by most. Bush nominated Rumsfeld and friends for their offices. If they're doing a bad job, he is accountable for those nominations, and it is his job to work with members of Congress to replace them. Leaving them in place doesn't help, and I'm not talking about replacing them in November. That's too long a wait.

The buck stops there, right? Besides, if Bush wants to take credit for good things, he has to take responsibility for the bad things.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...