Town moves against Islamic school

[LaoSexMachine]

Town moves against Islamic school
By Nick Bryant
BBC News, Sydney


With its lace curtain bungalows and steepled Anglican church, the once tranquil town of Camden in New South Wales seems the most improbable of settings for a row that combines race and religion.
Proud of its rich history, the town promotes itself as "the birthplace of the nation's wealth", for it was here, in the early 19th Century, that the sheep and dairy industries first began to flourish.
Now the town, which lies on south-west fringes of Sydney, is confronting a very 21st Century issue: the proposal to construct an Islamic school for some 1,200 Muslim pupils.
Behind the proposal is the Sydney-based Quranic Society, which has purchased 15 acres of land on the fringes of town, and produced detailed plans and designs.
None of them reference any obvious Islamic influences. Functional and non-descript, the two-story school could easily be a light industrial development.
Camden council is currently deciding whether to grant planning permission and allow the controversial development to go ahead.
'Wrecking Australia'
At the council's headquarters, 12 bulging ring-binders hold more than 3,200 submissions from the public. Only 100 are in favour of the development.
The council will deliver its verdict either later this month or early next.



This is not a nationalistic issue, it's not a religious issue, it's a planning issue, and it will be addressed on those merits
Chris Patterson,
Camden mayor
Twice the town has managed to rebuff the fast food giant McDonald's. Now it has mobilised to block the construction of the Islamic school.
Back in November, more than 1,000 local people took part in a public meeting. Many participants expressed themselves with little regard for political correctness.
"This has to be one of the nicest places in New South Wales," said one woman, who has lived in Camden for the past nine years.
"Everywhere is being destroyed. Why don't we tell the truth. They're wrecking Australia. They're taking us over," she said.
"Why hasn't anyone got any guts? They've got terrorists amongst 'em... They want to be here so they can go and hide in all the farm houses... This town has every nationality... but Muslims do not fit in this town. We are Aussies, OK."
Some of the loudest cheers of the night greeted a speech from a local man in his late 70s.
"Can I just say this without being racist or political?" he said. "In 1983, in the streets of London a parade by Muslims chanted incessantly 'If we can take London, we can take the world'. Don't let them take Camden."
Some speakers focused solely on the environmental impact of locating an urban-scale school in such a bucolic setting; and, in particular, on the traffic congestion it would bring.


One speaker implored the crowd to stick to planning issues, and not let the campaign be contaminated by racism or xenophobia. When the chair of the meeting invited anyone in favour of the development to speak up, no one stepped forward.
Camden does not harbour a large Muslim community - census figures suggest about 150 families.
Most of the pupils at the proposed school would therefore be bussed in from Sydney, a journey that takes about an hour each way.
'Planning issue'
Andrew Wynnet of the Camden/Macarthur Residents' Group showed me the site of the proposed school, and focused on its unsuitability and undesirability.
"When you have no Muslims living in Camden, why have a Muslim school here?" he asked.
He was also concerned about its long-term, demographic impact.
"The character of the town will change. When you have a large facility like this, the parents will follow. That amount of parents will change the character of the town."


"If you introduce 1,500 Muslim people to the town they'd be a majority. And that's not what this town is about."
Bravely, given that local council elections are due later in the year, Mayor Chris Patterson has adopted a neutral stance.
Presumably, it would have been more politically expedient to veer towards populism.
"This is not a nationalistic issue, it's not a religious issue, it's a planning issue, and it will be addressed on those merits," he says.
Determined that the planning process should be allowed to play out, Mr Patterson does not want to prejudge it.
Acrimonious
Many locals fear that the campaign is being hijacked by right-wing, nationalist groups with their own agendas.
The Australia First organisation has been advertising for members in Camden, and says it plans to field a candidate in September's local elections.
Pauline Hanson, the former leader of the One Nation Party, has also paid a visit to the town, though the local paper, the Camden Advertiser, reported that she mistakenly thought the proposal was for a mosque rather than a school.


The increasingly acrimonious and race-charged debate has also crossed into mainstream politics.
Camden is part of a Liberal-held parliamentary constituency which was high on Labor's target list at last November's federal election.
Campaigning in nearby Campbeltown, the then opposition leader Kevin Rudd said that the local infrastructure could not support such a large school, and that he therefore opposed it on "planning grounds".
The Quranic Society has kept a low public profile and was not available for comment.
But its position has been that Australian parents have the right to educate Australian children wherever they wish, regardless of race or religion. If the council rejects its planning application, it could appeal to the Land and Environment Court.
Camden residents will not give up easily.
"This town has fought all sorts of developments," Andrew Wynnet. "It will take on all-comers regardless of religion."


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/7416145.stm

[vinny_121_ND]

It's their right to vote against it. It's not racism, it's just the fact that they feel threatened. Act now, before it's too late.


"In 1983, in the streets of London a parade by Muslims chanted incessantly 'If we can take London, we can take the world'. Don't let them take Camden."

[LRPV]

On a broader front, communities across the country are fighting developers for one common reason. Wheter the development is a beachside residential tower, a power sub-station or an Islamic school, the fight is about maintaining the local character of the area. People move into an area because it has what attracts them, so naturally they will protest any change that impacts upon their lifestyle.

[vinny_121_ND]

lrpv, true, having this school will certainly change the landscape of this town to something of a islamic identity. This could turn into a graduate PhD project in humanistic geography.

[Calanen]

Many locals fear that the campaign is being hijacked by right-wing, nationalist groups with their own agendas.
The Australia First organisation has been advertising for members in Camden, and says it plans to field a candidate in September's local elections.
Pauline Hanson, the former leader of the One Nation Party, has also paid a visit to the town, though the local paper, the Camden Advertiser, reported that she mistakenly thought the proposal was for a mosque rather than a school.


Australia First and One Nation are morons. There is a legitimate point to be made, but it cant be made by them. The whole racism thing creeps into what they do - and it really isnt about race. No one can ever show me (because it doesnt exist) where mainstream islamic teaching says that one must live side by side in harmony indefinitely (and as equals) with those of other faiths.

The idiocy of the poorly defined term known as 'multiculturalism', is used as stick to destroy our own sense of identity, when our own values and morality has made this country a reasonable place to live. What we stand for, needs to be clearly defined. And what the islamic world stands for, needs to be better understood. At the moment, most people know neither.

[T3ngu]

Australia First and One Nation are morons. There is a legitimate point to be made, but it cant be made by them. The whole racism thing creeps into what they do - and it really isnt about race. No one can ever show me (because it doesnt exist) where mainstream islamic teaching says that one must live side by side in harmony indefinitely (and as equals) with those of other faiths.

The idiocy of the poorly defined term known as 'multiculturalism', is used as stick to destroy our own sense of identity, when our own values and morality has made this country a reasonable place to live. What we stand for, needs to be clearly defined. And what the islamic world stands for, needs to be better understood. At the moment, most people know neither.

x 2..............

I did some work for the school 6 months ago as a part of their planning process. Im neither for nor against it, im a normal australian, apathetic.

[LRPV]

im a normal australian, apathetic.

LOL at the definition of a normal Aussie. I used to be apathetic, now I just don't care...

[T3ngu]

LOL at the definition of a normal Aussie. I used to be apathetic, now I just don't care...

Perhaps I should move to don't care. Indeed I will.


On a broader front, communities across the country are fighting developers for one common reason. Wheter the development is a beachside residential tower, a power sub-station or an Islamic school, the fight is about maintaining the local character of the area. People move into an area because it has what attracts them, so naturally they will protest any change that impacts upon their lifestyle.


Its actually funny, what you say is absoloutley true. People will fight against the character change for no other reason apart from they can. I do a lot of work in this area, and see it all of the time. On one hand I hate people wasting my, the clients and the courts time in appeals when there is no need for one, but, on the other, I feel sorry for people who don't have the money to appeal against certain developments such as mines next to houses or the like.

[Bia]

lol @ being labeled a racist.

Pfffft

A muslim way of life is not something I want in my life. Thank god I reside in crackerville smalltown USA..... I'm in heaven!

:P

[Calanen]

lol @ being labeled a racist.

Pfffft

A muslim way of life is not something I want in my life. Thank god I reside in crackerville smalltown USA..... I'm in heaven!

:P

Yes I have to smirk a bit about the 'racist' tag. In Islamic states, no tolerance of any kind is shown to anyone else. You and me want to build a little prayer house in Saudi Arabia and our life would be measured in minutes not years.

Islam is not a race. It's a religion.

[Insane Tadpole]

I understand how the town feels, we allow Christian schools in our countries but not really Islamic schools.
Be interesting how far you would get if you tried to put a Christian school in a Islamic country.
I believe schools shouldn't be based on faith, no matter what Religion.

[Heinemann]

If it was up to me Id only allow these people to build their islamic school if they allow us to build Bible schools in Mecca :)

[Afro-European]

If it was up to me Id only allow these people to build their islamic school if they allow us to build Bible schools in Mecca :)
Co-sign.Those guys take advantage of the Western democracy(read weakness) to push their agendas through.

[Ed Robinson]

Looks simple to me, the majority of residents don’t want it. The last time I looked we lived in a democracy.

[woodduck]

FFS... How many islamic people are in Aus?? I think if you added them up and compair them to other religions you would find that they have a lot more infrustucter than anyone else. The locals will pig the crap out of that place.

[Pars]

Good going by the residents. No they're not racist because islam is not an ethnicity. Some one needs to put their foot down.

[oldsoak]

Take the point that Pauline Hansons mob arent the best people to say what needs to be said - are there any other parties in Oz that do ?

[Alfacentori]

Take the point that Pauline Hansons mob arent the best people to say what needs to be said - are there any other parties in Oz that do ?

Gets out Aussie dictionary and opens up page on "Political Correctness" p-)

That would be no!

Alfa

[oldsoak]

O b*gger !! :-( Not even the libs ?

Thought you boys were famous for calling a spade a 'kin shovel. What happened ?

- why is it that only the politically unacceptable come out with what lots of people feel and think in private ?

[Alfacentori]

O b*gger !! :-( Not even the libs ?

Thought you boys were famous for calling a spade a 'kin shovel. What happened ?

- why is it that only the politically unacceptable come out with what lots of people feel and think in private ?

Well if you look at pure libertarian thinking, such as J S Mills you will see that minorities must be allowed to express themselves in any way possible and in fact be incouraged, as along as they don't cause actually physical harm(that comes later).

Australia like all of the West is a 'Liberal' Democracy and if you don't like it your a racist basically.

The 'spade' as you put it has become a soft glove, perhaps when we become the minority we will get to say what we really think, but somehow I doubt it!

Alfa

[oldsoak]

Egad, I forsee Tassie being the last stronghold of the Aussies in the near future......besides Earls Court...

[Alfacentori]

Egad, I forsee Tassie being the last stronghold of the Aussies in the near future......besides Earls Court...

If it comes to that I'm packing up my rifles and moving to Tassie, then just like Britain in WW2 we can rebuild to invade the mainland! p-)

Alfa

[bigvig]

Stages of Islamization

STAGE ONE: INFILTRATION

* First migration wave to target non-Muslim society.
* Appeal for humanitarian tolerance from the target non-Muslim society.
* Characterized by professed tolerance of others and their beliefs.
* Attempts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and Muslims as victims of misunderstanding and racism.
* Images of women and children used to portray Muslims.
* Establishment of mosques as power bases (today globally funded by Gulf countries oil revenue). (Mosques are safe havens for Jihadi recruitment and subversive projects).
* Muslim leaders promote large push for increased Muslim births in target non-Muslim society to increase native Muslim population.
* Misrepresentation of their intentions or aims as a cover up for clandestine operations.

[am39exocet]

It is a very dangerous situation , a madrassa is a first stage before endoctrinment , it is important to consider this point :

-in muslims countries there doesnt have catholic or any other religious schools ( parhaps Lebanon ) because the catholics aren't accepted. Due to racism and xenophoby , with these people must be accept it...

I same i think that it is a provocation of this minority , developped everywhere and developp islam ( the difference between a correct islam and islamism is very strait) my personnal opinion it is that there doesn't has a correct islam due to its theologic basis....

[GNR]

Stages of Islamization

STAGE ONE: INFILTRATION

* First migration wave to target non-Muslim society.
* Appeal for humanitarian tolerance from the target non-Muslim society.
* Characterized by professed tolerance of others and their beliefs.
* Attempts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and Muslims as victims of misunderstanding and racism.
* Images of women and children used to portray Muslims.
* Establishment of mosques as power bases (today globally funded by Gulf countries oil revenue). (Mosques are safe havens for Jihadi recruitment and subversive projects).
* Muslim leaders promote large push for increased Muslim births in target non-Muslim society to increase native Muslim population.
* Misrepresentation of their intentions or aims as a cover up for clandestine operations.



Quoted for truth.

[MJC9678]

Looks simple to me, the majority of residents don’t want it. The last time I looked we lived in a democracy.



Ah yes. However muslims do not believe in Democracy. It is just a tool they use to destroy the west. Show me a real democracy in a muslim nation.

[Pars]

Stages of Islamization

STAGE ONE: INFILTRATION

* First migration wave to target non-Muslim society.
* Appeal for humanitarian tolerance from the target non-Muslim society.
* Characterized by professed tolerance of others and their beliefs.
* Attempts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and Muslims as victims of misunderstanding and racism.
* Images of women and children used to portray Muslims.
* Establishment of mosques as power bases (today globally funded by Gulf countries oil revenue). (Mosques are safe havens for Jihadi recruitment and subversive projects).
* Muslim leaders promote large push for increased Muslim births in target non-Muslim society to increase native Muslim population.
* Misrepresentation of their intentions or aims as a cover up for clandestine operations.



Very nicely put!

[Calanen]

Take the point that Pauline Hansons mob arent the best people to say what needs to be said - are there any other parties in Oz that do ?

Sadly, not really. The Liberal Party from time to time would say something sensible, but is now out of power federally. It is likely that the current Labor party will give appeasement another whirl, like Labor in the UK.

[Alfacentori]

Well the council has made its decision, No Deal!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/27/2257402.htm

Alfa

[Pars]

Well the council has made its decision, No Deal!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/27/2257402.htm

Alfa

Excellent news!

[LRPV]

Egad, I forsee Tassie being the last stronghold of the Aussies in the near future......besides Earls Court...

The map of Tassie is close to every Aussie blokes heart....p-)

Earls Court is too expensive for poor Aussies.


As for Hanson, she was right on the mark. She was as rough as the soles of my feet but guess what? When she spoke about immigration restrictions and was labelled a racist, John Howard cut immigration.

When Pauline spoke of ATSIC (native department in the old lingo) it was shut down.

John Howard hijacked a large proportion of her platform.

The underlying truth was and is that both Labour and Liberals did and will unite to stop a third party developing into political maturity.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The Greens seem to be going alright and are now the third largest party having surpassed both the Democrats and Nationals.

[Calanen]

As for Hanson, she was right on the mark. She was as rough as the soles of my feet but guess what? When she spoke about immigration restrictions and was labelled a racist, John Howard cut immigration


The points she had to make, were mixed in with idiocy like printing more money to help the poor. She is not a smart woman. So, the other parties, especially the Liberals took her good policies without the idiocy.

Thats the problem also with the nationalist front types wanting to get onboard the anti-jihadi bandwagon, and never the twain shall meet. Im anti-jihadi, but all the crap about black people and jews and so on has no place in any of my philosophies. So anyone who is anti-jihadi, or anti-immigration or whatever - has to watch out to get rid of the rednecked racist morons who want to roll out nazi style policies. And those policies, just detract from anything sensible you may have to say.

[PeterRJG]

The Greens seem to be going alright and are now the third largest party having surpassed both the Democrats and Nationals.

They're the party of the uni student and the disaffected 20-something. I'll go vigilante and rebel the day they ever come to power and implement their all-caring all-wonderful nanny state ideologies.

I've always preferred to do my thinking for myself.

[LRPV]

The Greens seem to be going alright and are now the third largest party having surpassed both the Democrats and Nationals.

Neither are, or will be a political force. One Nation out did both of them combined, this ought to indicate the need and the acceptance of a third force.

[LRPV]

Australian town council votes against building Islamic school
Associated Press , THE JERUSALEM POST May. 27, 2008

An Australian town council on Tuesday unanimously rejected a contentious proposal to build a 1,200-student Islamic school, citing infrastructure concerns.
Mayor Chris Patterson of Camden said the decision had nothing to do with religion but was based on the impact on traffic and loss of agricultural land.
"It is a site issue, clearly a site issue," Patterson said after the vote. "We said all along religious issues, nationalistic issues, will not be entered into." More than 200 residents attended the council meeting amid heightened security, and applauded after the vote. The Quranic Society, a Sydney-based Muslim group that planned to bankroll the proposed school, was not represented at the meeting.

[PeterRJG]

Now, look what you guys have made Google ads do:

http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CO7W2_3IiqzDuQEQ2AUYWjIIM9fGkA8bxjE

[Calanen]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/muslim-school-hysteria/2008/05/28/1211654078295.html

Bingham blasts 'hysteria' of Muslim school ban



http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/28/muslimschool470.jpg


We like to think that we are a very freedom-loving and non-prejudicial country. When the story gets a big run on the BBC it's not helping our reputationLatest related coverage

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/28/camden9060.jpg (http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=38249) Camden rejects Islamic school (http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=38249)
Video: Residents of Camden discuss the decision last night to reject an application for an Islamic school.


Extremism fear after Islamic school blocked (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/extremism-fear-after-islamic-school-blocked/2008/05/28/1211654068635.html)
Backlash over new Islamic school (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/backlash-over-new-islamic-school/2007/11/06/1194117995331.html)
A town's dirty secret (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-towns-dirty-secret/2007/11/10/1194329563801.html)
Pig heads left on pikes - but no one seems shocked (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pig-heads-left-on-pikes--but-no-one-seems-shocked/2007/11/28/1196036983979.html)
Nile party behind anti-Muslim school rally (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/nile-party-behind-antimuslim-school-rally/2007/12/21/1198175341971.html)
The power of one (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/the-power-of-one/2008/01/04/1198950075839.html)
Fears, dreams and racism in a rural paddock (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/fears-dreams-and-racism-in-a-rural-paddock/2008/01/05/1198950128812.html)
Muslim policies divide party (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/muslim-policies-divide-party/2008/01/12/1199988650443.html)
Council planners say no to Muslim school (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/council-planners-say-no-to-muslim-school/2008/05/23/1211183102956.html)
Islamic school rejected (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/islamic-school-rejected/2008/05/27/1211654031529.html)

Advertisement

Daniel Emerson
May 28, 2008 - 10:41AM


Former Sydney lord mayor Jeremy Bingham has contested Camden Council's claim that it rejected a proposal to build a Muslim school on "planning grounds" alone, claiming the decision was tainted by politics.

Mr Bingham, acting as a consultant for the proposed developers, the Quranic Society, said he had experience helping such organisations and "I've never lost, I might add".

Speaking to smh.com.au from London this morning, Mr Bingham said he would be scrutinising the council's reasons when he returned to Sydney in three weeks.

"If there are not legitimate planning grounds for refusal then they will be tested," he said.

The Quranic Society has already vowed to appeal against the decision through the Land and Environment Court.

Mr Bingham accused Camden Council of pandering to ill-informed residents in a bid to get re-elected.

"There's a vocal group of local residents who are very opposed to this school because of the religious beliefs of the Australian citizens who want to establish the school," he said. "That's not the Australian way and it's not the Australian law."

The recently retired lawyer of 50 years dismissed the council's claim that the site for the school was not suitable because of traffic concerns and Mayor Chris Patterson's subsequent suggestion that the Quranic Society find another location.

"[The society] can't go around buying multiple sites," he said. "We are on the corner of two main roads.

"Educational establishments have always been allowed in rural areas. You can work that one out for yourself.

"[The decision] is hysteria based on fear and misunderstanding. If it was a Catholic, Anglican or Jewish school there would be no objection."

In 2003, Mr Bingham acted as a lawyer for a businessman whose plans for a Muslim prayer hall were rejected by the Baulkham Hills Shire Council, which said it did not fit in with community characteristics.

The decision was later overturned by the Land and Environment Court and the hall has since been built.

"We won convincingly and the judge was very scathing of the religious intolerance," Mr Bingham said.

Reports of Camden Council's decision have appeared in the British media, with reports noting that two pig's heads were left at the site last November.

"We like to think that we are a very freedom-loving and non-prejudicial country. When the story gets a big run on the BBC, it's not helping our reputation," Mr Bingham said.

Linda Morris reports: Cardinal George Pell, when asked about the controversy over the school, urged a fair go for Muslims.

"Everybody in Australia has the right to a fair go, and so do the Muslims," he said.

"We believe in religious schools. We don't necessarily believe they should be here or there or any other place, but we certainly believe in religious schools."

Cardinal Pell did not comment on the appropriateness of the decision or the school's location.

He said that he had regularly spoken about "the obligation on the rest of Australian society to respect the rights of all religious minorities and that certainly includes the Muslims".

[LRPV]

Ultimately the Muslim population needs to take a bath on this issue. If the local majority don't want them there then accept it and find another location. I hope to see Bingham brought down to a more humble level on this topic.

[vinny_121_ND]

I don't think it's about religious intolerance stated by Mr. bingham. There has been a lot of problems between australians and muslims recently like 'uncovered meat' comment, demands of muslims about swimming time, and the riots. If you want to talk about tolerance, since I'm not muslim, I can't swim in the same pool during pool hours for muslims.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-560231/Public-pool-bars-father-son-Muslim-swimming-session.html

[Calanen]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/05/28/1211654068635.html

Extremism fear after Islamic school blocked

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/27/katemcculloch_wideweb__470x313,0.jpg

Kate McCulloch ... "they take our welfare".

Photo: Ben Rushton


It's very, very distressing that that sort of phobia exists in the communityLatest related coverage

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/05/28/camden9060.jpg (http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=38249) Camden rejects Islamic school (http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=38249)
Video: Residents of Camden discuss the decision last night to reject an application for an Islamic school.


Islamic school rejected (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/islamic-school-rejected/2008/05/27/1211654031529.html)

Advertisement


Daniel Emerson
May 28, 2008 - 8:04AM



A senior figure within Australia's Islamic community has warned that the blocking of a proposed Muslim school in Camden could result in Islamic children being taught extreme religious views in "backyards and garages".
Australian Federation of Islamic Councils president Ikebal Patel said it was "very sad" that Camden Council last night rejected a proposal to build a school for 1200 students on planning grounds.

In announcing the decision the Mayor, Chris Patterson, stressed that the refusal of the application had nothing to do with the seething religious tensions that have underpinned much of the debate.

He later told AAP he encouraged the school's developers to resubmit their proposal if they could find an alternative site within his south-western Sydney municipality.

But Mr Patel said he was saddened by the attitudes of Camden residents, some of whom declared the rejection of the school plan a victory for "decency".

"It's very, very distressing that that sort of phobia exists in the community," Mr Patel said.

"I think what the [Camden] council and the general population have to realise is that if Islamic schools are not encouraged and allowed to be established under the auspices of the State Government and their oversight, the same Muslim children will be given their religious education in backyards and garages by Imams and other religious teachers whose credentials no-one could vet.

"You may have some very extreme Imams or religious teachers getting through to the children."

Mr Patel said he supported the proposed developers, the Quranic Society Dar Tahfez El-Quran, who have declared their intention to fight for the school.

Vice-president Issam Obeid told the Camden Advertiser (http://camden.yourguide.com.au/): "We're definitely going to appeal through the Land and Environment Court."

Another member of the society, Ahmed Halal, told the paper it was disappointing that Camden residents had made it clear they did not want Muslims in the area.

"If you build a school, then you're building education and you're building something for society," he said.

About 200 Camden residents cheered wildly as the council formally decided to reject the application in their area last night.

Dressed in a hat decorated with Australian flags and a long yellow dress, a resident, Kate McCulloch, emerged from the meeting hailing the decision and insisting that Muslims were incompatible with the local community.

"The ones that come here oppress our society, they take our welfare and they don't want to accept our way of life," she said.

A council report recommended that the application be refused after more than 3000 submissions had been received from the public. The vast majority opposed the development.

Cr Patterson pointed to a report from council officers showing the proposed development was flawed on environmental and planning grounds. These included inadequate public transport to the site, in Burragorang Road at Cawdor, and fears that it might be contaminated by hazardous materials. Cr Patterson insisted the ruling was "on planning grounds alone".
- with Jonathan Dart

[Calanen]

Don't you like the implied threat..well, you know, now you have done this, there might be extremist action......

[LaoSexMachine]

Pfft. Don't they teach then that at some Mosque? Some people. Give them an inch they take a mile.

[Adux]

Hate this to be my first post, i have been lurking for years; but after seeing bigvig's post and seeing similar views expressed by muslims in another for forum for a completely differnet topic


Our greatest plus point is IMMIGRATION!

Europe always wanted to run from muslims and now we have so many in Europe and now even Eastern Europeans who are coming to UK are muslims.

Here in Scotland theres so many polish and also polish muslims and they are really nice people.

Ive also met Bulgurian muslims and Ukrainian muslims in addition to Bosnian muslims, Islam in UK is rising and rising very fast.



http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=76030

[Alfacentori]

Don't you like the implied threat..well, you know, now you have done this, there might be extremist action......

I agree, you can see the reason they didn't want it there if you can't stop lawfully stop such a development without fear of an "extremist backlash".

I wonder if a Christian or other religious school had been stopped if people would fear an extremist reaction?

Alfa

[Calanen]

Gee that forum is an eye opener. All of the posts are something similar.

http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=76030



The Western civilization is dying. If it wasn't for immigrants their populations would be falling, like is already happening in Russia. Their population is aging and the number of old retired people is becoming a burden to support. They have lost all moral values and believe in nothing except in hedonistic pleasure seeking. Because they have no moral compass, today homo******ity is promoted to children as a good thing, tomorrow pedophilia would be considered a healthy activity.

[T3ngu]

Gee that forum is an eye opener. All of the posts are something similar.

http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=76030

The comment re pedophilia is interesting as if it purely a christian thing. I recently finished reading a book on soldiers time in Afghanistan over the last few years. From what I read, digustingly enough, *** with children is common.

I think the same issues strike all comunnities but it boils down to a) whether the media reports it and b) what the punishments are.

[Adux]

When you read that forum, the bigvig's post makes quite lot of sense, and there is a desire in them to somehow change the total landscape of western civilization, especially in europe and france seems to somehow to them the first battleground, though I personally believe it is impossible.

[Calanen]

When you read that forum, the bigvig's post makes quite lot of sense, and there is a desire in them to somehow change the total landscape of western civilization, especially in europe and france seems to somehow to them the first battleground, though I personally believe it is impossible.

They sense in our society self-doubt, which there is. But there is overconfidence in theres too.

They will only win if we defeat ourselves.

[BugHunt]

A senior figure within Australia's Islamic community has warned that the blocking of a proposed Muslim school in Camden could result in Islamic children being taught extreme religious views in "backyards and garages".



Yes they should be taught those views in a 1500 sized school with air conditioning :roll:

What does it say about Muslims in aussieland (and other places in the west) that if they dont get there way THERE pulling out the Islamic bogeyman....

If there freaking spokesman is crying terrorism its not unreasonable for a rural community to have misgivings.

[vinny_121_ND]

What does it say about Muslims in aussieland (and other places in the west) that if they dont get there way THERE pulling out the Islamic bogeyman....

If there freaking spokesman is crying terrorism its not unreasonable for a rural community to have misgivings.

Hold on, I have edit your technical english a little. It should be
What does it say about Muslims in aussieland (and other places in the west) that if they don't get their way, THEY'RE (they are) pulling out the Islamic bogeyman....

If their freaking spokesman is crying terrorism its not unreasonable for a rural community to have misgivings.

[BugHunt]

Ive seen it all now...

Having my english corrected by what amounts to little more then a Frenchman ;)


*hangs head in shame* :|

[Ordie]

Does Australia have an equivilant to the US Religious Freedom Restoration Act?
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002000--bb000-.html

US Religious institutions often cite this act in cases where local governments are restrictive through local zoning codes.

[sikh_warrior]

its too late for western countries to wake up to the fact that their countries have sizeable muslim population among them.

india has still not woken up to the fact and now india has 150 million of them! india has too much of secularism and democracy to tackle islamisation in india!

they spread and they take over!

[Ordie]

its too late for western countries to wake up to the fact that their countries have sizeable muslim population among them.

india has still not woken up to the fact and now india has 150 million of them! india has too much of secularism and democracy to tackle islamisation in india!

they spread and they take over!

Is it an issue? or does India want to create an issue?
There is never enough democracy and secularism especially in India where political parties such as the BJP are taking on Hindu-Nationalist identity at the expense of Indian unity.

My attitude: live and let live.

[Nano]

its too late for western countries to wake up to the fact that their countries have sizeable muslim population among them.

india has still not woken up to the fact and now india has 150 million of them! india has too much of secularism and democracy to tackle islamisation in india!

they spread and they take over!

Same can be said about Christians in the Middle East or Muslim countries not to mention our very sizable military presence there. Switch it around and I can almost hear Osama Bin Laden saying the infidels have corrupted,exploited, and conquered our people WAR!!. Over some church being opened.
Like Ordie posted above live and let live its worked before, but its when one side wishes to impose it views and will through force or coercive means when we run into trouble. Whatever the real motivation may actually be other than divine enlightenment I don't know.

[bigvig]

There is never enough democracy and secularism especially in India where political parties such as the BJP are taking on Hindu-Nationalist identity at the expense of Indian unity.


Bull****. Do you even know what Indian secularism is? It's appeasement politics aimed at creating vote banks out of the Muslim population. Tell me, are you an expert on Indian politics? Explain to me how the Hajj subsidy is an example of secularism.

It's been an issue for 1400 years, of bearded Meccan ruffians pillaging and raping India. Hindus have lived and let live, don't need any instruction on that.

When the Zoroastrains of Persia were subject to genocide under Muslim rule, they sought protection under Hindu kings. Similarly Jews have also lived in India, virtually unmolested for hundreds of years. It is only the Muslims who have caused havoc and terror everywhere they are present. Only a Hindu nationalist Indian govt can keep growing Muslim extremism under control.

Indian muslim extremism is growing. Check the map for terrorist attacks since BJP left in 2004. Many of these attacks were on the scale of UK and Spain bombings.

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/may/20blast.htm

[Ordie]

It's been an issue for 1400 years, of bearded Meccan ruffians pillaging and raping India.

I thought it was the Moghuls or decendants of Mongols that ruled India not Arabs?

Perhaps the growing numbers of Muslims is attrbuted to the discriminatory caste system.

In which I could understand the appeal of being a Muslim, Christian, Maoist or Sikh in a society where the caste system is the norm.

[Henry's Fork]

Same can be said about Christians in the Middle East or Muslim countries not to mention our very sizable military presence there. Switch it around and I can almost hear Osama Bin Laden saying the infidels have corrupted,exploited, and conquered our people WAR!!. Over some church being opened.
Like Ordie posted above live and let live its worked before, but its when one side wishes to impose it views and will through force or coercive means when we run into trouble. Whatever the real motivation may actually be other than divine enlightenment I don't know.

I tend to give the Christians a break seeing that they were in the ME before Islam was created, in a shallow b&w way of looking at things. ME countries actively to this day keep Christians and other religions form gaining any significant foot holds in that part of the world. Its ok to burn and trash bibles, in said ME countries, but a koran gets dissed and its bloodshed across the globe

Also i cannot compare todays Islam with todays Christianity in terms of "Live and Let Live". When only one side to equation actualy lives up to it to some degree.

But then i have Buddhist/atheist leanings and think that both the man made cults of Jesus and Mohammad have brought the world so much sorrows and strife. I cannot be a unbiased judge here, other than from my POV, islam looks like the biggest joke on the block when co-existing with other religions.

That said i dont blame that town one bit for saying NO.

[ed316]

If the town didn't want the school there then it's case close. Just go to some other place that is more accepting.

[T3ngu]

If the town didn't want the school there then it's case close. Just go to some other place that is more accepting.

I doubt you will find somewhere in Australia, perhaps western sydney that is a) more accepting b) within easy travel range. The redneck element is everywhere, or perhaps, just normal people who are scared.

[ed316]

I doubt you will find somewhere in Australia, perhaps western sydney that is a) more accepting b) within easy travel range. The redneck element is everywhere, or perhaps, just normal people who are scared.


I wouldn't go so far as to call them rednecks. If it was Muslim who didn't want a school there would the media be on the story like stink on shat? Some people don't want WalMart in their neighborhood cause it will attract low income people and bring the propert value down. Islam is not special and shouldn't be treated as such.

[T3ngu]

I wouldn't go so far as to call them rednecks. If it was Muslim who didn't want a school there would the media be on the story like stink on shat? Some people don't want WalMart in their neighborhood cause it will attract low income people and bring the propert value down. Islam is not special and shouldn't be treated as such.

Sorry ed, pehaps you misunderstood me. I work in the area of appeals and planning applications, and even worked on this site. I was not inferring that the locals were rednecks, but that there is always a small minority that don't wont any development at all, as you say. Redneck was perhaps not the word to use.

A friend of mine in the states calls them cave peple. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. But certainly, Australia does have a population of rednecks in every town.

[Calanen]

Does Australia have an equivilant to the US Religious Freedom Restoration Act?
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002000--bb000-.html

US Religious institutions often cite this act in cases where local governments are restrictive through local zoning codes.

Nope. My own view is that they should strip city and council zoning from them and give them to the states. But thats another story.

In this case, its clear the local community didnt want them there. Whether they have been smart enough to make their objections defensible in the Land and Environment court, remains to be seen. My experience with councils is, they probably havent.

Interestingly..we do have freedom of religion, of a sort in the constitution. But the states, and city planners, are not the Federal government. [Please armchair lawyers, I am only mentioning this as a matter of interest...not saying they have a case based on the constitution.]

Commonwealth Of Australia Constitution Act

116. The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

[bigvig]

I thought it was the Moghuls or decendants of Mongols that ruled India not Arabs?

Maybe you ought to read a little history then,

The earliest invaders were Arabs, they captured Sindh in 712 CE, Mughals were a late dynasty who ruled from about 15th to 17th centuries before being destroyed by the Hindu independence movement started by Shivaji, and other Hindu powers, and Sikhs in Panjab.

Before Mughals there were Lodhis, Tughlaks, Khiljis.


Perhaps the growing numbers of Muslims is attrbuted to the discriminatory caste system.

Perhaps you should do a little reading before pulling fancy theories out of your arse, everyone knows that the main reason for Muslim growth is due to deliberate overbreeding, please check the census stats for Kerala, this is a state where literacy rates are almost equal for Christians, Hindus, and Muslims. Muslims are also better off than Hindus in terms of wealth, but their birth rate is more than 2.1 last time I checked, while the Hindu and Christian ones are at Western European levels.

Next, Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh, India all practice caste and have their own “untouchables”, in addition to caste they also have a racial hierarchy which often conflates with caste among them, the foreign born Muslims (from Iran or Arabia) are the highest and carry names indicating their foreign origin and don’t intermarry with “low” caste Muslims, here is what Ambedkar says (ex Hindu “untouchable” convert to Buddhism):

But if slavery has gone, caste among Musalmans has remained. As an illustration one may take the conditions prevalent among the Bengal Muslims. The Superintendent of the Census for 1901 for the Province of Bengal records the following interesting facts regarding the Muslims of Bengal :—
"The conventional division of the Mahomedans into four tribes— Sheikh, Saiad, Moghul and Pathan—has very little application to this Province (Bengal). The Mahomedans themselves recognize two main social divisions, (1) Ashraf or Sharaf and (2) Ajlaf. Ashraf means 'noble' and includes all undoubted descendants of foreigners and converts from high caste Hindus. All other Mahomedans including the occupational groups and all converts of lower ranks, are known by the contemptuous terms, 'Ajlaf ,' 'wretches' or 'mean people': they are also called Kamina or Itar, 'base' or Rasil, a corruption of Rizal, 'worthless.' In some places a third class, called Arzal or 'lowest of all,' is added. With them no other Mahomedan would associate, and they are forbidden to enter the mosque to use the public burial ground.
"Within these groups there are castes with social precedence of exactly the same nature as one finds among the Hindus.
I. Ashraf or better class Mahomedans.
(1) Saiads.
(2) Sheikhs.
(3) Pathans.
(4) Moghul.
(5) Mallik.
(6) Mirza.
II. Ajlaf or lower class Mahomedans.
(1) Cultivating Sheikhs, and others who were originally Hindus but who do not belong to any functional group, and have not gained admittance to the Ashraf Community, e.g. Pirali and Thakrai.
(2) Darzi, Jolaha, Fakir, and Rangrez.
(3) Barhi, Bhalhiara, Chik, Churihar, Dai, Dhawa, Dhunia, Gaddi, Kalal, Kasai, Kula Kunjara, Laheri, Mahifarosh, Mallah, Naliya, Nikari.
(4) Abdal, Bako, Bediya, Bhal, Chamba, Dafali, Dhobi, Hajjam, Mucho, Nagarchi, Nal,Panwaria, Madaria, Tunlia.
III. Arzal or degraded class.
Bhanar, Halalkhor, Hijra, Kasbi, Lalbegi, Maugta, Mehtar."
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/410.html



By the way Einstein, using the same logic (assuming that Muslims don’t have caste which is a blatant lie as shown above), they do have some of the worst discrimination against women in their scripture, women of other religions in India have far more freedoms, yet I don’t see Muslim women leaving Islam in droves due to this discrimination, so how come you assume that Hindus are converting because of caste?


In which I could understand the appeal of being a Muslim, Christian, Maoist or Sikh in a society where the caste system is the norm.

Another lie, every major religious group in India practices caste no matter what the scriptures say, just a month or so back, Vanniya Christians clashes with “untouchable” Christians in Pondicherry, here is a news link:

http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1975/45/

Also to be noted is the fact that around the start of the Goan Inquisition by Portuguese where they brutally tortured and forcefully converted Hindus (and Muslims also) one of the Popes (forget his name but I can dig up if you want) proclaimed a papal bull sanctioning caste among Indian Christians which has never been withdrawn, so much for Christian equality.

I should also point out that NOT a single medieval Christian or Muslim chronicle says that Hindus converted to escape caste inequality, the only reason for conversions mentioned were forcible, discriminative taxes (jiziya) and the like.

It should also be pointed out that far from any equality, the foreign born Muslim rulers despised Hindus and also Hindu converts because they had a feeling of racial superiority, Amir Khusrau was one such foreign descended Muslims, he calls Hindus “crow faced” referring to the darkness of skin color, later on Francis Xavier who urged the Inquisition in Goa and destroyed temples (now shamelessly called a saint by the Church) also had similar things to say about skin color.

Equality was never there in practice and wasn’t even referred to, only in modern times when egalitarianism became the norm in the West, suddenly Indian Muslims and Christians have been claiming that they always had equality (bullocks considering that now “untouchable” Christians and Muslims want reservations/affirmative action like their Hindu counterparts).

The only “religion” who can lay a claim to have talked about equality at least theoretically is Sikhism, I say theoretically because even Sikhs had castes in social matters and still do.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Indian history before you write up your fancy theories.

[Ordie]

What is your plan for India and where does Apu Nahasapeemapetilon fit in with the picture?

[Adux]

Ordie and Bigvig 'please' back off a bit;

I have read enough and more on this forum and know both of your goodwill for my nation.

Ordie,

Appeasement has gone to extreme levels in India, UK and Europe is nothing in comparison, I am from the so called lower caste, and there has been high caste opperssion and now it is illegal but it still stays in societal level behind closed doors, similar to racisim in America. Those things are all very different from problem at hand, we have petro-dollars rushing into India and Europe, used for conversion and illegal land deals etc. Things are not good. BJP in any other nation would be called a 'liberal'. I would call the demcrats more 'nationalist' than the BJP. India is not perfect nor are its people but we are working on it. Islamic extremisim hits hard on our greatest achievement democracy and secualrism.

[vinny_121_ND]

Ordie,

Appeasement has gone to extreme levels in India, UK and Europe is nothing in comparison, I am from the so called lower caste, and there has been high caste opperssion and now it is illegal but it still stays in societal level behind closed doors, similar to racisim in America.

Interesting, what kind of stuff happens to appease muslims? I've seen enough in the UK, and if it's worse in India, I'd just want to know what they demand.

[PeterRJG]

Nope. My own view is that they should strip city and council zoning from them and give them to the states. But thats another story.


x2 - just to go off at a tangent. That'd solve 95% of Australia's bureaucratic corruption right there, especially if a powerful watchdog was assigned to the state dept that eventually oversaw that.

See Calanen, I don't argue the point and dissent with everything you say.

OK topic, back on track...

[Adux]

Interesting, what kind of stuff happens to appease muslims? I've seen enough in the UK, and if it's worse in India, I'd just want to know what they demand.

Well they have complete differnet legal system for domestic issues sharia courts, they are allowed to marry four people, they are given money to do haj, while other religions dont get any money, money from temples go into the government coffers, while churches and mosques can do whatever they please with theirs etc etc. There are islamic exteremist in India, instead of tackling them and the problems that created them, we are in denial when we call most of'em pakistani terrorist attack so as to avoid any social stigma on the muslims, and to save them from any percieved backlash from other communities. The government we have is worst we have ever had,
This doesnt mean that there are societal problems in the Hindu communities, and the caste system still exists but it is not legal nor is it practice. But it is still there in the society, especially in the tier 2 cities and lower.

[sikh_warrior]

pakistan was formed on religious grounds and give as a land of pure for india muslims.....still most of them stayed back in india beacuse they couldnt go......they have no business staying back in india when they were give a land of their own!

now they are creating problems for india from both sides....pakistan and bangladesh. both troubled by islamic terrorists!

west has always accepted muslim migrants on the pretext of open democracies, secularism, human rights.....now they will enjoy the fruits of letting muslims come into their countries!

ever wondered why muslims never join the main stream of the country they live in, why they live in ghettos, why they always form the lower part of the civicl society, why they are educationally backward, why they want to live in the 6th century and rest of the world lives in 21st centry???

muslims come and live in free democracy and ask for thier human rights, but try and visit a muslim country and try asking for your rights??

try building a church in islamic country.....qatar is the first country in ME to allow a church and already there is so much hue and cry going around!!

dudes....indians (non-muslims) have suffered too much from arab(islamic) invasion of india since 7th century.....try google or yahoo search to get your answers!

[Adux]

pakistan was formed on religious grounds and give as a land of pure for india muslims.....still most of them stayed back in india beacuse they couldnt go......they have no business staying back in india when they were give a land of their own!

I dont agree with this, India offered a democratic and secualristic place not a HINDU nation. Those muslims who stayed back is as Indian as everyone else. But there are some rotten apples, and our goat is that government is not taking them head on and there is no universal law for everyone. Sharia law for domestic and marital issues for muslims is a travesty for the idea of India.

Every Indian muslim is an Indian, make no doubt. All of them have as much as right


now they are creating problems for india from both sides....pakistan and bangladesh. both troubled by islamic terrorists!


west has always accepted muslim migrants on the pretext of open democracies, secularism, human rights.....now they will enjoy the fruits of letting muslims come into their countries!

WE have to tackle them, strike in them that it is secualristic and democratic culture we follow and they have to follow the same. Otherwise what is the difference between us and them.r




dudes....indians (non-muslims) have suffered too much from arab(islamic) invasion of india since 7th century.....try google or yahoo search to get your answers!

SO have we from the brits and the rest of the europeans. it is 160 million Indian souls, we have to find a way. It shouldnt be appeasement and it shouldnt be hitler. And it wasnt arabic invasion but rather central asian invasion!! Muguls, are from turkic decent

[IraGlacialis]

I was not inferring that the locals were rednecks, but that there is always a small minority that don't wont any development at all, as you say. Redneck was perhaps not the word to use.

A friend of mine in the states calls them cave peple. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. But certainly, Australia does have a population of rednecks in every town.
Don't forget the NIMBYs. Not In My Backyard.
Those folks who say that a religious structure, sports park, industry or something to the effect needs to be built to encourage diversity or delvelopment. But the moment the item get built near them, they throw a hissy fit about riff-raff moving in, too much traffic, or any other excuse to get it away from their neighborhood.

[sikh_warrior]

I dont agree with this, India offered a democratic and secualristic place not a HINDU nation. Those muslims who stayed back is as Indian as everyone else. But there are some rotten apples, and our goat is that government is not taking them head on and there is no universal law for everyone. Sharia law for domestic and marital issues for muslims is a travesty for the idea of India.

Every Indian muslim is an Indian, make no doubt. All of them have as much as right


now they are creating problems for india from both sides....pakistan and bangladesh. both troubled by islamic terrorists!



WE have to tackle them, strike in them that it is secualristic and democratic culture we follow and they have to follow the same. Otherwise what is the difference between us and them.r





SO have we from the brits and the rest of the europeans. it is 160 million Indian souls, we have to find a way. It shouldnt be appeasement and it shouldnt be hitler. And it wasnt arabic invasion but rather central asian invasion!! Muguls, are from turkic decent

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Qaida_terrorist_rallies_women_online/articleshow/3081360.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_L-e-T_up_for_Pakistan_in_war_on_terror/articleshow/3081287.cms

the muslims living in india are not indians enough!! FACT.

have you seen any muslim leader, organisation or any prominent muslims personality condemned the recent jaipur bombings??? none

has any one from their own community come forward to help police in investigation?? none

indian govt care for illegal bangladeshis living in india as vote banks and not a threat to india's security!!

muslims living in india were converted by force when islam invaded india...."convert and live....refuse and die"!

muslims living in india never apologised for what the invading islamic armies did to the india culture!

they all are leftovers of invaders who never indianised themselves!! nor they are doing now!

[Adux]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Qaida_terrorist_rallies_women_online/articleshow/3081360.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_L-e-T_up_for_Pakistan_in_war_on_terror/articleshow/3081287.cms

[QUOTE]the muslims living in india are not indians enough!! FACT.

NOT FACT, gross generalisation. I am all for kicking them into a complete national well being but come on. I know quite a lot of muslims who are patriotic, but yes they do wear their religion their sleeve.


have you seen any muslim leader, organisation or any prominent muslims personality condemned the recent jaipur bombings??? none

Maybe they did,not get printed. I am going nuts here trying to get kerala newspapers print against the government on issue's of its educational policies.

has any one from their own community come forward to help police in investigation?? none

indian govt care for illegal bangladeshis living in india as vote banks and not a threat to india's security!!


muslims living in india were converted by force when islam invaded india...."convert and live....refuse and die"!

There are others too.


muslims living in india never apologised for what the invading islamic armies did to the india culture!

Brits have not apologized for Jalinwalabagh nor have the Indian Higher caste community as a whole apologized for centuries perscution on lower caste. Though government has forced casteism out, where are the Brahmin Maha samaj coming and saying "We are sorry for our grandfathers"


they all are leftovers of invaders who never indianised themselves!! nor they are doing now!

So if I convert to Islam tommrow, I am a left overs and not Indian enough?

[Ordie]

Thanks Adux for the societal lessons about India.

I was born and raised in the USA where freedom of religion is a guaranteed right. The general attitude here is that no one cares about what one practice or not. So much so that talking about religion is avoided and generally makes people uncomfortable even among countless of Christian denominations. Therefore not an issue.

The US Religious Freedom Restoration Act was created to prevent the government (Local, state and federal) from preventing the people thier rights of worship. Thus many of the strict zoning codes limiting building use are less applicable in the case of houses of worship. That is why one would find churches, gurdwaras, mosques, temples etc...in residential areas and are tax exempt by the government.

The US Muslim community by in large is a very diverse community from different backgrounds, languages and customs. I visited a Mosque here in the SF Bay Area where the congregants are both Sunni and Shia, and are from Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, Afghanistan, USA, and even Fiji. The common language for all and the sermon is English. Moreover, many Muslims live and mingle within the general population and most importantly no one makes an issue.

Thus in turn Muslims do not feel rejected or persecuted to the point of militancy.

As far as Christians in Muslim majority countries its a mixed lot. In the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Israel, West Bank and Jordan) Christan community has always existed since the time of Christ. Christian churches have existed and schools are well regarded by many Muslims.

Though one cannot say the same about the Wahabbist heartland (Saudi Arabia and Gulf States) through the UAE is always the exeception.

(Note: The Black Muslims has more to do with racism and are rejected by Muslims since they do not follow the five pillars.)

[sikh_warrior]

london has become londonistan!

i can forsee the same problem creeping up in usa and the right to freedom act is being freely used by muslim extremists to their own advantage.

sikh separists used the same democracy and rights in canada to their own advantage and canadian govt was helpless.

places of worships are being used for extremist purposes!

Ordie have you ever travelled to brussels, paris, amsterdam, frankfurt?? guess what common in them?

all these cities have muslims living in ghettos, never being able to join mainstream society and the respective countries are paying the price of letting the muslims come and settle there!

brussels has morrocons, paris has algeirans, frankfurt has turkish and amsterdam has syrians and egyptians. yes i have travelled to all these 4 cities during my european visit and seen it all.

oh i forgot londonistan....full of pakis, BDs and many other countries.

[Ordie]

The story is different here in California. Most Muslims are professionals and live in the suburbs along with non-Muslim neighbors. An area that comes to mind is Fremont, California which has the largest Afghan population outside of Kabul. But it also has the a significant population of Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics and Mormons within a 10 mile radius.

Religious minorities tend to be less radicalized if they are part of the community at large. Isolation breeds radicalism. But the key is that all are treated equally by a common set of laws and norms.

Though there are tensions between the religious institutions and the local community, this has to do more about traffic issues during holy days than religious. This is largely due to Churches, Mosques, Temples and Gurdwaras being located in zoned residential low density neighborhoods.

[Calanen]

The story is different here in California. Most Muslims are professionals and live in the suburbs along with non-Muslim neighbors. An area that comes to mind is Fremont, California which has the largest Afghan population outside of Kabul. But it also has the a significant population of Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics and Mormons within a 10 mile radius.


The difference is Ordie, India has 150 million muslims. If America had 150 million muslims, do you think they would be preaching tolerance, promotion of democracy and freedom of religion?

Muslims keep a low profile traditionally until they have enough numbers. Then..watch out. If you keep the numbers low enough, then you will never have a problem. But a critical mass then....calls to Jihad and war. And so it has ever been, right back to 700AD. Our fancy multiculturalism, freedom and tolerance mean nothing to people who have been doing things this way for more than 1000 years.

There has never been a place where muslims have been in significant numbers around people from other religions and there has not been conflict against the infidels. Islam is a religion of peace in two circumstances....where the location is all muslims, or, there are not enough muslims to properly challenge the majority.

[frenchy]

Co-sign.Those guys take advantage of the Western democracy(read weakness) to push their agendas through.

I agree with that.

It's the same thing in all western countries.
In our borders, they preach and are doing meetings to ask for tolerance and fight against racism.
And are often troublemakers.

In the same time, in almost islamic countries, except perhaps morroco, they're intolerance against non-muslims.

And after, those guys are wandering why there is more and more racism.

[Adux]

Ordie,

First of all

Muslims think democracy, secualrism (respect for other people's belief's), equality etc are not the same when a muslim is in power. No Muslim nation treats non-muslim as the same, heck in pakistan they cant get hold quite number of governmental posts.

PLUS, dont compare Muslims in America to that of in Europe and India, the appeasement center's of the world, if they dont join the American way of life, They will not be allowed to live there. Look at the cry of jihad and kuffar video in britan, would that be possible in America. NOPE.

We have to change them, not their religion.The main problem is PETRO-DOLLARS

[frenchy]

The main problem is the islamist ideology of Dhimma and Dar-al-islam which integrists preach in the mosques.

Don't let be hypocrites. An enough big part of muslims want to conquer western world by strength or insidious ways.

Progressively they grow, they ask for more and more laws.

In France they're asking to have hours for women in the public pools, men ask to just women gynecologists for their wifes or ask for just hallal foods in public schools.

And soon or later, once they're big communities take weapons like Abu sayaf in Philippines, chechens or in kosovo to ask for independance.

[Calanen]

And soon or later, once they're big communities take weapons like Abu sayaf in Philippines, chechens or in kosovo to ask for independance.


France let them riot for about 3 months a couple of years ago, trashing Paris. The press did its best to say they were just 'troubled youths', and glossed over they were chanting Allah Akbar while they turned over cars and started fires.

[frenchy]

France let them riot for about 3 months a couple of years ago, trashing Paris. The press did its best to say they were just 'troubled youths', and glossed over they were chanting Allah Akbar while they turned over cars and started fires.

Right, fully right. :-(

What I dislike in our countries is the fact that politicians and medias don't have nuts to tell the truth.

[Ordie]

if they dont join the American way of life, They will not be allowed to live there. Look at the cry of jihad and kuffar video in britan, would that be possible in America. NOPE.

Not true.
There are no pre-requisites to "join the American way of life".

The difference between the US and Europe are two issues

1) In the US we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
2) Multicultralism is not a policy. Everyone is equal under a common set of laws. No exceptions.

Do we have issues with extremist? yes the "Branch Dividians" and the Reformed LDS Church comes to mind. Both of these case are treated as criminal matters.

[Calanen]

What I dislike in our countries is the fact that politicians and medias don't have nuts to tell the truth.


I know some pretty disturbing things about the muslim revenge attacks in our city in Sydney. The gist of it all is, the authorities did nothing and covered it up.

[Calanen]

Not true.
There are no pre-requisites to "join the American way of life".

The difference between the US and Europe are two issues

1) In the US we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
2) Multicultralism is not a policy. Everyone is equal under a common set of laws. No exceptions.



And if muslims become a majority in a state - what do you think they will vote for? Tolerance? Freedom of religion? What if my religion says you have to die as an infidel and I need to overthrow the government that guarantees freedom of religion, imposing my own government, which says, there is no religion but Islam? Can you be tolerant of that point of view?

Referring to the odd christian nutjob in the states, is a pretty limp wristed 'few bad apples' argument. There is only one religion that demands the overthrow of the government and the imposition of Sharia law. That is islam.

Its great to be inclusive, and tolerant. But you are saying that tolerance needs to be shown, to a dogma, that has no tolerance or respect for you in return. In fact, it commands its followers to get rid of you, and to get rid of your government. Some muslims might not care enough to implement it. Some may believe terrorism is a tactical mistake. But many more who would not resort to violence or terror, still believe that the infidel society must be destroyed and sharia law rule the land.

Al Taqiya - use deception to protect the faith, conceal its true motives

Houdna - have a truce with the infidels, while you build your forces to crush them.

Two very important concepts in the Islamic world, and two concepts that the west does not understand.

[Adux]

Not true.
There are no pre-requisites to "join the American way of life".

The difference between the US and Europe are two issues

1) In the US we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
2) Multicultralism is not a policy. Everyone is equal under a common set of laws. No exceptions.

Do we have issues with extremist? yes the "Branch Dividians" and the Reformed LDS Church comes to mind. Both of these case are treated as criminal matters.


Ordie,

the American way of life in my context is democracy and equality of law. It is not the case in India or UK. People of Islamic faith have special privalges here, American public wont agree to such things. It is the case of the have's and have more's. Do you think the American cops will listen or tolerate to kuffar and anti-american hate speeches, hooliganism etc in USA.

[Adux]

Al Taqiya - use deception to protect the faith, conceal its true motives

Houdna - have a truce with the infidels, while you build your forces to crush them.

Two very important concepts in the Islamic world, and two concepts that the west does not understand.

This above, are some of the most important pillars of Islamic faith. It is true. But in my country nor the world can wish away its muslim population, so the question is how can we bring them into the civilized world, appeasement is playing into the hands of taqiya and houdna. therefore is not right course.

[Alfacentori]

And if muslims become a majority in a state - what do you think they will vote for? Tolerance? Freedom of religion? What if my religion says you have to die as an infidel and I need to overthrow the government that guarantees freedom of religion, imposing my own government, which says, there is no religion but Islam? Can you be tolerant of that point of view?

Referring to the odd christian nutjob in the states, is a pretty limp wristed 'few bad apples' argument. There is only one religion that demands the overthrow of the government and the imposition of Sharia law. That is islam.

Its great to be inclusive, and tolerant. But you are saying that tolerance needs to be shown, to a dogma, that has no tolerance or respect for you in return. In fact, it commands its followers to get rid of you, and to get rid of your government. Some muslims might not care enough to implement it. Some may believe terrorism is a tactical mistake. But many more who would not resort to violence or terror, still believe that the infidel society must be destroyed and sharia law rule the land.

Al Taqiya - use deception to protect the faith, conceal its true motives

Houdna - have a truce with the infidels, while you build your forces to crush them.

Two very important concepts in the Islamic world, and two concepts that the west does not understand.

I've been brushing up on my knowledge of Islam for a comparative assignment on Christian, Islamic and Hindu fundamentalists and I must say I'm inclined to agree with your assessment Calanen.

The West is going to suffer within and without in the not to distant future and we will only have our own refusal to face the problem to blame.

Islam and secularism don't mix, Islamic principles and democracy don't mix, Islamic beliefs and equality don't mix and Sharia law and western jurisprudence don't mix either.

It will get a lot worse before it gets better

Alfa

[Calanen]

The stupidity of the West is summed up by the naive belief, that any aspect of Jihad somehow relates to our current foreign policy. It has nothing to do with that. It has been going for more than 1000 years. Did Mohammed need the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to be a warlord in the Middle East? Did the Ottoman Empire have Israel/Palestinian conflict or Iraq to blame for stampeding up to the gates of Vienna in 1683?

Jihad is the direction of the islamic faithful to the destruction of those who are not part of Islam. It happens no matter what the infidels do or say. We need to recognise this as part of Islam, and deal with it - head on. Like men. Not a pack of frightened schoolgirls afraid to offend anyone.

[Adux]

I've been brushing up on my knowledge of Islam for a comparative assignment on Christian, Islamic and Hindu fundamentalists and I must say I'm inclined to agree with your assessment Calanen.

The West is going to suffer within and without in the not to distant future and we will only have our own refusal to face the problem to blame.

Islam and secularism don't mix, Islamic principles and democracy don't mix, Islamic beliefs and equality don't mix and Sharia law and western jurisprudence don't mix either.

It will get a lot worse before it gets better

Alfa

Europe has a history , and at times it is not pretty...will the liberals take matters to such an extent that somehow the gas chambers will start up again, and this time it wont be the jews. We shouldnt let the matters get out of hand; UK in my opinion is simmering below the surface, i expect backlashs soon.

[Migman]

Interesting article. It kept mentioning all these planning issues in regards to the school. Anyone know what exactly these issues are?

[sikh_warrior]

at last some westerners are agree with me on the muslim/islamic problem the world is facing today.

thanx a lot calanen, frenchy, adux and alfa.

Indian Prime Minister was pretty confident when he told Bush that india has one of the largest muslim population and not even 1 al qaeda member......im afraid he spoke too soon!

anyway we in india have been struggling against muslims and onslaught of invaders since 7th century. islam was introduced in india under the power of sword.

anyway the sooner we all (world) wakes up to the fact of spread of islam the better it is for the world.

yes i agree that it will get a lot worse before it will get better. muslims are now 1 billion on this planet and i get inspiration from Spain, how they de-islamised themselves!

yes its true muslims take advantage of freedom guaranted under liberal west democracies and too secular countries like India.

Tenth and last Guru of Sikhs Guru Gobind Singh Ji said:

"When all other means have failed, It is but lawful (pious and just) to take to the sword. Evil is to be resisted and uprooted, but the sword is never to be struck in hatred or in anger or in spirit of revenge"

[sikh_warrior]

well as the chinese say "a picture is worth more than thousand words"!

hope some naive people get the message from these pics!

[superbuzzmetal]

Wouldn't mind if America traded their Mexican influx with Europe's muslim influx.

[Ordie]

The one thing I forgot to mention is the notion of separation of church and state. It's clearly defined in the US Constitution. Any amendment to that clause requires the majority of the states approval.

Religious institutions are not funded by the state but enjoy tax exemptions. However, if a religious institution were to be involved in politics, it's tax exempt status is taken away.

The US does not have a ministry or department of religious affairs.

Moreover, the US has a long history of dealing with religious movements by non-interference and respect to the Constitution.

[Ordie]

Wouldn't mind if America traded their Mexican influx with Europe's muslim influx.

Or perhaps our Portugese influx in Boston, Hawaii and California

[Adux]

Sikh Warrior,

Though I share your setiment on the problem at hand, I dont agree with your views on how one should tackle it. I havent made up my mind on how it should be done; and the medival spain shouldnt be a inspiration to anyone!!!

[Adux]

Ordie,

We have the same here, but question of Sharia and its implementation, which is what they are asking in so many democracies around the world, goes against church and state seperation doesnt it. They want to be treated as a country within a country!!!

[sikh_warrior]

Sikh Warrior,

Though I share your setiment on the problem at hand, I dont agree with your views on how one should tackle it. I havent made up my mind on how it should be done; and the medival spain shouldnt be a inspiration to anyone!!!

my apologies to you Adux, im not in favour of shooting back unless fired upon. i just meant that we should be waking up to the fact that islamisation of non-islamic countries is underway by muslims living and growing in numbers in these countries and radicalisation of cities and countries.

my apologies again.

[Adux]

Sikh Warrior,

Nothing to apologize,

PS: Amazing Picture of Niazi sulking!!,Hail India

[Ordie]

Ordie,

We have the same here, but question of Sharia and its implementation, which is what they are asking in so many democracies around the world, goes against church and state seperation doesnt it. They want to be treated as a country within a country!!!

Shiria is a legal system compared with English Common Law and Roman Code. Right?

Multiculturalism is not a good policy since you are giving exemption towards a specific ethnic or religious group. It's not good for the host nation nor it is good for the people of a specific religious group.

For there may be people who want to escape the excesses of religious and cultural norms such as arriagned marriage, servitude, caste, or unwanted obligations.

I think the US found a sweet spot in both meeting the secular and spiritual needs of its citizens.

The message is that one can choose and worship as they may wish and the church gets a tax exemption as long as you obey secular laws.

If a church decides to actively participate in political matters, your tax exempt privilages are taken away.

[Adux]

Ordie,

As far as I am concerned, though I have never set foot on US soil, it is the last bastion of equality. The arguement here is about subversion of our laws and culture under different pretexts, and gaining special status for themselves, to be treated different from others; look at the french muslim-marriage case posted on the same fora.

Sharia is nothing like our laws, comparing our codes to them is travesty in itself. Comparing a law of men definied by humanity to a law of definied by subjective religious points
For your further reading regarding life of non-muslims in Islamic countries, what given below is healthy dose of sharia!



guardian.co.uk home | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)
Unholy laws

Pakistan's rules on blasphemy are cruel, unfair and open to abuse. It's time for the new government to take a stand against them

Benedict Rogers

Ten years ago today, Bishop John Joseph, Catholic bishop of Faisalabad in Pakistan, shot himself dead on the steps of the Sahiwal district court in protest at the abuse of the country's blasphemy laws. Ten years on, little has changed in Pakistan.

Today also marks the 22nd anniversary of the introduction of the most deadly of Pakistan's blasphemy laws. Section 295-C of the Pakistan penal code, introduced by the then dictator General Zia ul-Haq, imposes the death penalty on anyone blaspheming the Prophet Muhammed.

Since 1986 several people have been sentenced to death, though subsequently acquitted. While no one has yet been executed by the state, at least 25 people have been arbitrarily killed by vigilante extremists. Even if acquitted, anyone accused of blasphemy is marked for life in the eyes of the Islamists. They cannot resume a normal life, and instead live in hiding or exile. Just last year, for example, a Pakistani Christian, Younis Masih, was sentenced to death for blasphemy. He has filed an appeal, but even in prison his life is in danger.

It is not only the accused whose lives are endangered. Lawyers and human rights activists who defend blasphemy cases or campaign for the law's repeal are at risk. In blasphemy cases, extremists, usually led by mullahs, crowd into the courtroom, shouting blood-curdling threats to the judge and defence counsel. A lawyer I know personally, who has defended many blasphemy cases, constantly receives anonymous threatening phone calls, and has been attacked more than once outside court.

The blasphemy laws impact everyone, regardless of religion - and the tragedy is that almost every case is completely fabricated. When the laws were first introduced, they were used primarily as a tool by extremists to target religious minorities - Christians, Hindus and others. These days, however, Muslims have got wise to the potential for using the blasphemy law against each other to settle personal scores.

The reason is simple. The blasphemy law requires no evidence other than an accusation made by one person against another.

There is no proof of intent, and an inadequate definition of blasphemy. When it comes to court the accuser does not even have to substantiate the charge. If the judge asks what the accused actually said, the accuser can refuse to elaborate, on the basis that by repeating the alleged statement they themselves would be blaspheming.

At least 892 people so far have been accused under the blasphemy laws. Those accused are jailed, often tortured and shackled in solitary confinement, and so even if acquitted, they emerge physically and psychologically scarred.

A false rumour of blasphemy is enough to spark mob violence before it even reaches the courts. Last month Jagdesh Kumar, a 22-year-old Hindu factory worker in Karachi, was beaten to death for allegedly making blasphemous remarks.

In 2005, a mob destroyed three churches, a convent, a school, a girls' hostel and a priest's home in Sangla Hill, accusing a Christian man of desecrating the Qur'an. "Within minutes, the Christian residential area was blazing. Christian residents fled to save their lives," a report claimed. Extremists used mosque loudspeakers to spread the rumour of blasphemy, and called on Muslims to rise up and eliminate Christians. They passed a resolution calling for the hanging of the accused person, three weeks after the initial violence.

Pakistan's new prime minister, Yusuf Raza Gillani has promised to make fighting terrorism his top priority. To do this, he needs to create an atmosphere of moderation and tolerance. Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's former prime minister and leader of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP), assassinated just after Christmas, has described the crisis in Pakistan in alarming terms.

In her book Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy and the West, published after her death, she warned: "Pakistan today is the most dangerous place in the world. Pakistan faces the threat of both Talibanisation and Balkanisation, which are gaining in strength".

To slow the tide of extremism, Pakistan's government should return to its roots and be guided by the vision of its founder, Muhammed Ali Jinnah. In 1947, Jinnah said the famous words:

"You are free. You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the state ... We are starting with this fundamental principle, that we are all citizens and citizens of one state."


The first step to restoring Jinnah's vision is to repeal the blasphemy laws. Such a move requires courage. It will outrage the extremists, and upset some of Gillani's coalition partners from the Pakistan Muslim League, whose leader, former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, was described by Bhutto as "a Zia protégé with Islamist tendencies". In power, according to Bhutto, Sharif praised the Taliban as a model for Pakistan to follow, and attempted to introduce an "Islamisation bill", which if passed would have incorporated sharia law into the constitution, and given the prime minister, not the courts, power to enforce religious edicts. It was, she argues, an attempt "to turn Pakistan into a theocratic state".

Gillani has a mandate for moderation, however, and should not give Sharif's views any credence. His PPP defeated the pro-Taliban pro al-Qaida coalition that ruled North West Frontier Province, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, which had been on the verge of Talibanising the area, shutting down music shops, introducing full sharia law and creating a Saudi-style religious police.

Their defeat, and the overall support for the PPP nationally, suggests that the majority of Pakistanis are moderate and progressive. That should give Gillani's government courage to be bold in pursuit of moderation. Such courage would ensure that Bishop John Joseph's death was not in vain.



What the writer doesnt understand here, and that NONE of the Pakistani parties are moderate or liberal or secular by International standards. Such is the sad situation of our journalism as well as the situation of non-muslim citizens of islamic countries.

[Calanen]

Shiria is a legal system compared with English Common Law and Roman Code. Right?


No. Sharia is the embodiment of Middle Ages Barbarity codified into a set of principles applied still in the modern era. Other than them both being 'rules', the analogy breaks down.

[Calanen]

at last some westerners are agree with me on the muslim/islamic problem the world is facing today.

thanx a lot calanen, frenchy, adux and alfa.



I had a chat with a Christian Lebanese recently about all of this. He said to me 'You are the first westerner I have spoken to that understands the problem. The other westerners I try to talk with about it, they have no idea.'

There are probably more people sikh_warrior that sense that something is wrong, but may have difficulty articulating their concerns.

I so don't care who people's God is, or what sort of dancing, singing, praying rituals they want to adopt. But if they are part of a group that seeks to overturn the law, political system and rights of my country's system under the guise of freedom of religion - I am going to stand up and say that's exactly what they are doing.

The difficulty also Sikh_warrior, is that the Muslim religion is hard to understand for westerners. It is a complex religion. Most approximate it to something like them going to church on Sundays, and think, well its just like me going to church except in Arabic. How very wrong they are.

Perhaps it is naive of me - but I hope, that there are enough people in Islam who, while acknowledging that the religion says various things about overthrowing the infidels government, are willing to put that aside to live in peace. But, if they are out there, their voices are very very quiet compared to those calls for jihad.

[sikh_warrior]

if muslims want to live in america not under law of the land, but under their sharia law, then why the minorties living in islamic countries have to follow sharia law??

why its not vice-versa?

when western women visit islamic countries, they are TOLD to dress modestly and COVER UP! why the muslim women living in western countries dont dress like the western women and follow and adapt the social way of life?

muslims want heads and tails of the same coin...."Heads i win, Tails you loose?"

i still dont get it!

[sikh_warrior]

I had a chat with a Christian Lebanese recently about all of this. He said to me 'You are the first westerner I have spoken to that understands the problem. The other westerners I try to talk with about it, they have no idea.'

There are probably more people sikh_warrior that sense that something is wrong, but may have difficulty articulating their concerns.

I so don't care who people's God is, or what sort of dancing, singing, praying rituals they want to adopt. But if they are part of a group that seeks to overturn the law, political system and rights of my country's system under the guise of freedom of religion - I am going to stand up and say that's exactly what they are doing.

The difficulty also Sikh_warrior, is that the Muslim religion is hard to understand for westerners. It is a complex religion. Most approximate it to something like them going to church on Sundays, and think, well its just like me going to church except in Arabic. How very wrong they are.

Perhaps it is naive of me - but I hope, that there are enough people in Islam who, while acknowledging that the religion says various things about overthrowing the infidels government, are willing to put that aside to live in peace. But, if they are out there, their voices are very very quiet compared to those calls for jihad.

nobody wants to understand islam.....just "live and let live"! and muslims just cant digest free equal world!

"you convert or you die"....its all stupidness!

[Samarasimha]

sikh warrior is right, the loyalty of a majority of indian muslims have always been suspect going by their behavior, they were the biggest supporters of partition not current day pakistanis, the Aligarh Muslim University which served as the hotbed for muslim league activities is in the Hindi belt of India not Pakistan, in 1946 provincial elections 86% of the Muslim vote went to the league, the only place where ML didn't win was Sindh (ironically now part of Pakistan).

After supporting the split of the country on religion, they cleansed out most of the Hindus and Sikhs from West Pakistan within a few months (25% then, 2-3% now) while East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) saw slow but carefully planned genocide of Hindus (culminating in 1971 genocide in East Pakistan by the West Pakistani dominated army, of which the overwhelming majority of refugees were Hindus even though they only made up 18% of E.Pakistan's population), the cleansing has continued uniterrupted after Bangladeshi Muslims got their own country because the infidel Indian army liberated them in 1971, shows how ungrateful brainwashed Islamic zombies can be.

In modern times, Muslims in India deliberately have more kids in order to Islamize certain corridors with the hope they can secede, also there is relentless illegal bangladeshi muslim infiltration into border states with the hope that they can secede (the illegal immigrants are sheltered by the indian muslim community) soon and form a greater bangladesh.

The only Muslim majority state in India is Jammu and Kashmir, of this only Kashmir valley proper is overhwelmingly Muslim majority, unsurprisingly there has been a secession movement accompanied by ethnic cleansing and killings of Kashmiri Hindus from the valley in 1989 (google Kashmiri Pandits if u don't believe me), the 300k strong Hindu community has been in refugee camps ever since in Delhi or Jammu.

Indian Muslims rampaged and killed 10 Hindus for not closing down their shops in Sholapur in Maharashtra a few years ago because they were "protesting" Jerry Falwells remarks against Muhammad, this is the minority that is portrayed as terrorized and persecuted by the West, imagine American Muslims killing random infidels because some Indian author spoke against Muhammad.

They also had time to bring out massive protests during Bush's visit aided by indian commies (a Hindu was killed in Lucknow when these "protests" turned into riots in several places including Bangalore), but they don't have time to protest when Musharaf visits India or when the king of Saudi Arabia visits India, such behavior tells us all we need to know about where the loyalties of this "persecuted" community lie.

Calanen is right when he says that Islam teaches them to kill or forcibly convert non muslims, the PC Western media covers up Muslim fanaticism many times under the label "Asian" in UK which includes Hindus and Sikhs, but fact is things like Bradford riots were confined to Pakistanis (and they vandalized several Hindu shops). Just look at UK, Indians and Pakistanis went to UK at a similar time and were both mainly working class immigrants, now Pakistans (and Bangladeshis) are at the bottom while Hindus and Sikhs are affluent and contribute to society, should tell you all you need to know about how this so called "religion of peace" turns people into mindless zombies.

[Ought Six]

ER:
"Looks simple to me, the majority of residents don’t want it. The last time I looked we lived in a democracy."No, Australia is supposed to be a republic, not a pure democracy. A republic is supposed to protect the individual's inalienable rights from being violated by the majority or government. A pure democracy would be a nightmare; a mobocracy. Any unpopular minority could be persecuted by the majority without recourse.

[PeterRJG]

Let me throw this out there...

Where was Christianity in its 1400th year of existence? How tolerant was it? How pervasive was it in everyday European life? How accommodating was it of competing faiths or liberal new thinking?

Probably exactly where Islam is now in its 1400th year.

[PeterRJG]

ER:No, Australia is supposed to be a republic,

Really now? Hint: Australia isn't a republic.

Edit: I know what you're getting at, but republic isn't probably the right word. But Australia definitely isn't a republic,

[LaoSexMachine]

......................................

[Alfacentori]

Let me throw this out there...

Where was Christianity in its 1400th year of existence? How tolerant was it? How pervasive was it in everyday European life? How accommodating was it of competing faiths or liberal new thinking?

Probably exactly where Islam is now in its 1400th year.

This is true but what was the state of science and rational thinking about the world around at that time>?
You can't compare any religion in the past to a religion that exists in the world of today, and even if you did, what we should say "well we used to be like that hundreds of years ago, we should let them be, its their turn to be intolerant?".

Your talking about a period where the world was flat and people had no understanding of how the world functioned.

I'm not sure what you hoped to achieve with such a vague comment



Really now? Hint: Australia isn't a republic.

Your quite right, we are a Democracy, but we have a hybrid federalist/westminster majoritarian system, might be the source of the confusion, either that or he just hates the queen p-)

Alfa

[PeterRJG]

This is true but what was the state of science and rational thinking about the world around at that time>?



Funnily enough circa 1400 AD, the average Arab and Persian scholar knew more of science and stuff than any European did. Rational thinking? You'd have to look farther east, toward China and India. They did philosophy long before Kant and Swedenborg



You can't compare any religion in the past to a religion that exists in the world of today, and even if you did, what we should say "well we used to be like that hundreds of years ago, we should let them be, its their turn to be intolerant?".


I was juxtaposing the relative maturity of the religions. Christianity gave way to reason and method eventually (at least in most places) and the point I was making is that Islam hasn't matured the same way - yet.



Your talking about a period where the world was flat and people had no understanding of how the world functioned.


Define "people" - a fair hunk of the world in 1400AD knew the earth wasn't flat. And quite a few of them had a very good idea of how things worked - just not Europeans.



I'm not sure what you hoped to achieve with such a vague comment


Hopefully, I've un-vagued it for you.

[Ought Six]

jc:
"Really now? Hint: Australia isn't a republic"You are correct. It is a constitutional monarchy with a parlimentary government. However, my point about it not being a pure democracy and supposedly protecting the rights of individuals against the majority and government remains valid.

[LaoSexMachine]

..............................

[Alfacentori]

Funnily enough circa 1400 AD, the average Arab and Persian scholar knew more of science and stuff than any European did. Rational thinking? You'd have to look farther east, toward China and India. They did philosophy long before Kant and Swedenborg
This is very true Islamic scholars were more advanced than Europe in many ways at the time, the real emergence in Europe (post ancient Greeco-Roman scholars) didn't occur until the Reformation and Enlightenment periods.

I was juxtaposing the relative maturity of the religions. Christianity gave way to reason and method eventually (at least in most places) and the point I was making is that Islam hasn't matured the same way - yet.
I can see what you mean, but by your reasoning Islam should be as mature, if not more so than many of the other religions, and yes I agree that it isn't. But having said until it does (andI hope it will) live and let live simply won't cut it, especially when only one side does the 'let live' part.

Define "people" - a fair hunk of the world in 1400AD knew the earth wasn't flat. And quite a few of them had a very good idea of how things worked - just not Europeans.
I think you misunderstood me, yes at 1400AD lots of learnered scholars knew the world wasn't flat, but did the average citizen? the uneducated masses that were still steeply fixed in religious practices and laws? Religions and society consist of more than just the elites, I mean Columbus had fears of sailing off the end of the world, yes the knowledge was there but was it widely known/accepted?

Hopefully, I've un-vagued it for you.

Yes you did, thanks for that.

Alfa

[PeterRJG]

Columbus didn't have fears of sailing off the end of the world - urban legend. He knew the world was round. He went west thinking it would be a shorter trip to the East. He underestimated the size of the world and that joint called the North American continent

[PeterRJG]

jc:You are correct. It is a constitutional monarchy with a parlimentary government. However, my point about it not being a pure democracy and supposedly protecting the rights of individuals against the majority and government remains valid.

I kind of figured that's what you meant. Still, there's a lot of republics in this world that are anything but free and fair with their people's rights.

[Alfacentori]

Columbus didn't have fears of sailing off the end of the world - urban legend. He knew the world was round. He went west thinking it would be a shorter trip to the East. He underestimated the size of the world and that joint called the North American continent

Perhaps, that is a matter of historical conjecture, and this isn't the place for such a debate, but as I said the 'flat world' belief was alive and well in his time.

But anyway getting back to topic....p-)

Alfa

[Calanen]

ER:No, Australia is supposed to be a republic, not a pure democracy. A republic is supposed to protect the individual's inalienable rights from being violated by the majority or government. A pure democracy would be a nightmare; a mobocracy. Any unpopular minority could be persecuted by the majority without recourse.

Whoa....when did the revolution happen and nobody told me? We are a constitutional monarchy. We may be a republic one day...but not yet.

We do however have a Senate, which is much like the idea of a republic, in that it represents the former colonies that united to form Australia. All were separate entities, with their own armies, coinage etc..and still have rights under the new system. Hence the Senate. Just like the United States Senate.

[PeterRJG]

Calanen, we sorted out the "republic" confusion a few posts ago. Just saying.

[Calanen]

Let me throw this out there...

Where was Christianity in its 1400th year of existence? How tolerant was it? How pervasive was it in everyday European life? How accommodating was it of competing faiths or liberal new thinking?

Probably exactly where Islam is now in its 1400th year.

Not even anywhere close, or anything like it. On so many grounds and bases that it doesnt bear considering.

And let us say, for arguments sake, you are correct. What is the upshot of this? That Islam has a good excuse? That Christianity doesn't? As a practical measure in terms of guiding policy - how exactly does 'Islam is just as advanced as christianity in the 1400s' guide us in terms of policy? Does it take us anywhere at all, or advance the discussion in any way?

Relativism, and post-modernist arguments about the level of 'blame' or comparison between religions just further confuse the issue, and are a means of obfuscation for the crimes committed in the name of islam today. What are we doing, today, to stamp out the jihadi culture? That is all that matters. Not how well Islam is going on some Top of the Pops chart for religious maturity.

[PeterRJG]

And let us say, for arguments sake, you are correct.


Correct? I gave an opinion. By definition it can be neither right nor wrong. I did say "let me throw this out there."



What is the upshot of this? That Islam has a good excuse? That Christianity doesn't?


Excuse? If you want to boil it down to that. Christianity, and Judaism before it, weren't exactly enlightened religions, and especially Christianity, did its fair share of the convert or die thing as well. Arguably a whole lot more than what Islam has done. Dare I say it, but the only reason Christianity still doesn't pursue this proselytising end on a such a scale is because it wouldn't get away with it in this age of reason.


As a practical measure in terms of guiding policy - how exactly does 'Islam is just as advanced as christianity in the 1400s' guide us in terms of policy? Does it take us anywhere at all, or advance the discussion in any way?


Takes us anywhere? Probably not, but it should give people at least a minor heads up on why things are as they are with Islam. At least I think so. You disagree? Oh well.


What are we doing, today, to stamp out the jihadi culture? That is all that matters. Not how well Islam is going on some Top of the Pops chart for religious maturity.

Knowing about that religious maturity may give people an idea why the jihadi culture is the way it is. Not a complete picture, obviously, but an idea.

[sreto]

Where was Christianity in its 1400th year of existence? How tolerant was it? How pervasive was it in everyday European life? How accommodating was it of competing faiths or liberal new thinking?

Probably exactly where Islam is now in its 1400th year.

Ok, they can get their 14th century asses out of our 21st century countries until they catch up

[PeterRJG]

Ok, they can get their 14th century asses out of our 21st century countries until they catch up

Totally agree with you. I was (trying) to give an idea why the jihadi types may exist.

As an aside to all this, it amuses me when the jihadis call the West "crusaders". Maybe the jihadis might want to look at Islamic expansion from 630 AD- 900AD or thereabouts, vis-a-vis with the Christian efforts to regain Jerusalem, and then honestly say who the crusader is.

[Adux]

I am treated as a equal in every western country that I know of, just as in my own. But if god-forbid if I work in the Middle east, expect me to get a racially profiled salary. These people havent got their asses out of the 10th century, in my opinion they have regressed from their peak point of enlightment of 14th century, europe, heck most humans in general have made amends for their medival past?

[sikh_warrior]

you just cant compare christanity in its 1400th year to 1400th year of islam......world is at a completly different times right now!

its like saying my father used a cycle to go to schools in his teens and i used a car in my teens to go to school! its the change of times!

anyway islamic school is a religious school and you just cant divide societies/cities/countries on religious basis......we indians have suffered 1st hand the religious divide and still going through that.

my point of view is that some western countries still have not woken up to the facts of islamisation!

thanx for the write-up Samar.

[damagejackal]

Totally agree with you. I was (trying) to give an idea why the jihadi types may exist.

As an aside to all this, it amuses me when the jihadis call the West "crusaders". Maybe the jihadis might want to look at Islamic expansion from 630 AD- 900AD or thereabouts, vis-a-vis with the Christian efforts to regain Jerusalem, and then honestly say who the crusader is.

If your interested in learning more about Islam's devolution from the intellectual superpower it was in the early centuries, this book might interest you...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060516054.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[PeterRJG]

Well Sikh Warrior, how's this for a radical idea. The reason why you guys in India may have the problems you have right now is a national fascination in blaming every conceivable ill that's ever happened on the British, John Company and the Raj. I read Rediff, the Times of India and other publications...I see this "OMG this sucks, must be the Raj's fault".

I'd argue, that you add up all the invaders of India in history, from Alexander downward, the British have probably been the least problematical for you all. Easily the least murderous.

If the Hindu/Jain/Sikhs etc, want to solve sectarian problems, they need to do something about Islam in their country, right?

[PeterRJG]

If your interested in learning more about Islam's devolution from the intellectual superpower it was in the early centuries, this book might interest you...



Interesting...may have to chase that one down.

[Calanen]

This is what everyone in the West should read:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9303/thepoliticallyincorrecton6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Heinemann]

If your interested in learning more about Islam's devolution from the intellectual superpower it was in the early centuries, this book might interest you...


Or to save yourself from reading 500 pages;

The early Islamic empire got most of its income through extortion taxes on the non-Muslims and the pilaging of infidel lands. Now that brute force with sticks and stones doesnt count for sheit, Islam has lost its advantage thus its no longer a superpower.

[Samarasimha]

"I'd argue, that you add up all the invaders of India in history, from Alexander downward, the British have probably been the least problematical for you all. Easily the least murderous."

Sorry to burst your bubble, but after the Islamic invasions the British were the worst, millions died in famines created because of British policies.

Alexander, Huns, Shakas are nowhere near the damage done by the British or Islamic invaders, Alexander conquered a small part of India in the Northwest that was reconquered within a few years by Chandragupta Maurya, all the earlier invaders before Islamic ones ruled small parts of India for a short while before becoming assimilated. You will never hear anyone in India today claiming to be Greek or Hun (unless they are crackpots) because no one even knows what became of these tiny populations.

It was Islam that brought the first wave of destruction which continues to this day, when the British came almost all India was ruled by Hindus or Sikhs and the Mughal emperor was no more than a puppet, with the British conquest Islam was saved.

I don't believe in blaming the Raj for the Hindu-Muslim problem which was centuries old even by the time of the Raj, but it is sheer nonsense to compare Alexanders puny raid to the well established Raj that sucked India dry. Google for the "Madras famine" for a start and you will get some idea.

In addition to this, after the failed 1857 rebellion British policy in India was to co-opt the Muslims which is why they were more than their population % in the British Indian army, part of the reason was the fact that the Muslim elite told the masses not to join the freedom movement and faithfully serve the British, another reason was the fact that the British favoured Islam as a religion since it came closer to Christianity than Hinduism.

Most of modern India's failures are the responsibility of Indians, I am not in the business of blaming colonialism for todays failures but its nonsense to reduce the millions killed because of the Raj's policies to a mere footnote or compare them with some small time raid of Alexander 2300 years ago.

[oldsoak]

"It was Islam that brought the first wave of destruction which continues to this day, when the British came almost all India was ruled by Hindus or Sikhs and the Mughal emperor was no more than a puppet, with the British conquest Islam was saved "

- I disagree. The British policy of divide and rule relied on the co-operation of local princes - mostly Islamic. If they were puppets, the Raj wouldnt have got off the ground. You cannot rule a country the size of India without the help and connivance of local potentates.
( as an example of how powerful they could be , the Sikhs were considered as well equipped and on par with British troops in discipline - and by all accounts very formidable indeed which is why they were later recruited by us )
Was India mis-managed by the Brits - absolutely true. Were they so bad that the Indians threw out everything British upon independence ? Absolutely not. The apparatus of government and law would be instantly recogniseable by the those of the Raj. As for the 1857 rebellion, investigation by the British after the event found that by and large the Hindus were not the main instigators but the love affair with the Islamic world was already too well established and the Hindus did not benefit from their proven loyalty.

[Samarasimha]

- I disagree. The British policy of divide and rule relied on the co-operation of local princes - mostly Islamic. If they were puppets, the Raj wouldnt have got off the ground. You cannot rule a country the size of India without the help and connivance of local potentates.
The reason the British empire got off the ground was because of internal civil war in the Maratha confederacy, lets survey the main wars which the British fought for control of India:

1) 3 Anglo-Maratha wars (Marathas won the first one decisively, but were crushed in the 3rd, they were the main Hindu power)
2) Anglo-Sikh wars (one of the hardest wars Brits ever fought in India, helped by treachery of some sikh and hindu generals, no muslims here again)
3) Against Jat kingdom of Bharatpur (The Jats who ruled were Hindu, no Muslims)
4) Battle of Plassey (Muslim Nawab ruled Bengal but just before this Marathas raided Bengal and started collecting chauth or tax from him)
5) Tipu Sultan (crushed by joint forces of Nizam+Marathas+Brits, he was the only Muslim ruler of note and a rabid fanatic too)
6) Nizam of Hyderabad (crushed repeatedly by the Marathas and paid tax to them)

The main reason for the British conquest was internal civil wars among Marathas, in diplomacy the Indians were no match for the British strategy then, also the European armies had a much better system of drill and discipline, some Hindu rulers realised this and hired Europeans to train their armies that way but it was too little and too late.

I quite agree with u that Brits couldn't have won without local help but this local help came through treachery and civil wars among Hindus and Sikhs, the Mughal emperor was essentially a puppet from at least the time of Baji Rao onwards (1730s) kept on life support by the Marathas who ruled in his name, the Brits followed the same policy until 1857, Madhoji Shinde the Maratha general even had to rescue the emperor once from the hands of a fellow Muslim fanatic named Ghulam Qadir, thats how helpless this so called "emperor" was.


Was India mis-managed by the Brits - absolutely true. Were they so bad that the Indians threw out everything British upon independence ? Absolutely not. The apparatus of government and law would be instantly recogniseable by the those of the Raj.
True, though I would have preferred that we had adopted some changes to suit local conditions instead of retaining everything from the Raj wholesale.

As for the 1857 rebellion, investigation by the British after the event found that by and large the Hindus were not the main instigators but the love affair with the Islamic world was already too well established and the Hindus did not benefit from their proven loyalty.
You are correct in saying that 1857 had a lot of Muslim participation, there were even some of the familiar Muslim on Hindu atrocities during the rebellion, but after this rebellion the freedom movement was essentially led by Hindus, the only other community who contributed were the Sikhs, you can glean this from the stats of freedom fighters hung by the British, you will find very few Muslims in them.

[Adux]

Oldsoak,

Brits have been both good and bad for us, if you have indian railways then you have jalinwalabagh too, I am proud of our british history as well as our other history. it is a part of us, wether we like it or not. The entity which is today came to being because of the brits to a large extent, but when saying that lets also not forget the Jungle Raj, pillage of our resources etc!!!

And, Indian were never one single entity, it was under Mughal Rule and before that with Ashoka etc, all the others were small kingdoms, Divide and rule policy was a breeze for them. I am a Malayalee, 200 kms from my place you have the tamils, travel 300kms from there you get the Kanandiga's, travel 500 from there you get telegu. Do understand that all of them are different language speaking people with a loose similarity in faith(which was never a single entity in itself).
So Mughals, and Brits had a field day, on the diversity of India. Today with a powerful central government it is no longer the case, and India is well on its way to retain its long lost glory of this very old and mystic land.

[Adux]

Adding to that, Indians were never some lovey dovy people either, the castism is a living proof of that, but Indians were always involved subjugating and pillaging their own people than others.

[Samarasimha]

Brits have been both good and bad for us, if you have indian railways then you have jalinwalabagh too

The railways were mainly built with the aim of better transport of resources for the Raj not with any benevolent motive, its similar to a kidnapper who may let feed the person he kidnapped, doesn't mean he is doing the person a favor.


And, Indian were never one single entity, it was under Mughal Rule and before that with Ashoka etc, all the others were small kingdoms, Divide and rule policy was a breeze for them.

You forgot the Guptas, and sorry to say you are imposing ur modern ideas onto the past, before modern times there were no linguistic states nor language issues that we see today, the intercine struggles were based primarily on expanding kingdoms, and they saw themselves as united by their common faith (read the poems of Bhushan who was from UP on Shivaji or the letters of Sawai Jai Singh to Chhatrasal Bundela).


In his letter dated October 16, 1708 to Chhatrasal(91) , Jai Singh wrote that the trouble started when the Emperor, while granting them mansabs, incorporate the parganas of their watans into khalisa. "Your Highness knows well as to how one can live without a watan and what is (the importance) of a mansab without the watan. Informing Chhatrsal about the Rajput victory at Sambhar in which three thousand of the enemies were killed, and expressing his confidence that similar victories would be gained by them in future also, he wrote, "If Sardars like Your Highness gird up their loins, then the honour of Hindustan would no doubt be maintained. Other zamindars, mansabdars and the Rajas of the intervening region have already united and have removed the thanas of the Turks from their territories. Shri Ranaji too must have written to Your Highness (to do so). You will please join us early for the sake of the honour of th entire Hindu race. As we all Hindus hae common ties, you will not delay in coming towards this side." He asked Chhatrasal to send the names of the prominent zamindars of the east whom they might contract and requested him to write letters to all such chiefs with whom he had intimate contracts. "This is no longer as issue which concerns any one person; now it concerns all the Hindu (rulers) ", he concluded.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1249

The Marathas went into Konkan and liberated Bassein because the Hindus there urged them to save them from the Portuguese fanaticism, they didn't care that Konkanis may spoken a slightly different language.


Adding to that, Indians were never some lovey dovy people either, the castism is a living proof of that, but Indians were always involved subjugating and pillaging their own people than others.

There were wars between kingdoms, but its ridiculous to compare them to the wholesale massacres and pillaging of common people brought in by the Muslims, here is what Megasthenes said:


But, farther, there are usages observed by the Indians which contribute to prevent the occurrence of famine among them; for whereas among other nations it is usual, in the contests of war, to ravage the soil, and thus to reduce it to an uncultivated waste, among the Indians, on the contrary, by whom husbandmen are regarded as a class that is sacred and inviolable, the tillers of the soil, even when battle is raging in their neighbourhood, are undisturbed by any sense of danger, for the combatants on either side in waging the conflict make carnage of each other, but allow those engaged in husbandry to remain quite unmolested. Besides, they neither ravage an enemy's land with fire, nor cut down its trees.

http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/foreign_views/greekroman/megasthenes-indika.htm

[Adux]

Residents of medival India never saw each other as one people, We have no enough history of killing each other. Secondly I never said the railways were for some benevolent reason, especially since those very machine were used to kill us, by putting people in windowless cargo compartments!! but it gave us something to build on. Samething with the Indian Civil service etc,
So you can some explain one example of Maratha hindu unity, to 500 principalities..lets tone down the generalizations. Brits would have never been able to control India without the help of the Hindu's. simple fact.
I can see that you are very aware of history, but DONT mix your version dharmic ideas of hinduism into socio-politico India, which never exisited. And Gupta's were in BC. And South was never there!!! Ofocourse Muslims were the worst in raping and pillaging. Bagdad slave market is evidence of that, but that doesnt mean the Indians were so lovey dovey to its very own people. So NO. brits and Muslim invaders were not the only devils.

[bigvig]

Residents of medival India never saw each other as one people
Are you going to quote any primary sources like Samarasimha did that proves this or are you going to keep chatting **** with nothing to back it up?

[Adux]

Are you going to quote any primary sources like Samarasimha did that proves this or are you going to keep chatting **** with nothing to back it up?

Show me one socio-political movement. Till then i suggest you stop talking ****. And you can keep a india-forum 'primary source' for yourself

[Samarasimha]

So you can some explain one example of Maratha hindu unity, to 500 principalities..lets tone down the generalizations. Brits would have never been able to control India without the help of the Hindu's. simple fact.
You seem like an idiot with no idea of primary sources, the example I quoted was one of many examples which you would know if u had read the primary sources.

And Gupta's were in BC. And South was never there!!! Ofocourse Muslims were the worst in raping and pillaging.
Sorry but you seem very ignorant of Indian history, Gupta empire was in the common era, Samudragupta subdued many Southern kings, it was Mauryas who were BCE not the Guptas, and Ashoka nor Mughals which you listed so confidently weren't able to conquer all of South India.

Bagdad slave market is evidence of that, but that doesnt mean the Indians were so lovey dovey to its very own people. So NO. brits and Muslim invaders were not the only devils.
Indians were eons ahead in their warcode, massacres of civilians/pillaging/destruction of conquered cities were not the norm unless you can show evidence to the contrary.

Show me one socio-political movement. Till then i suggest you stop talking ****
I suggest the same to you, the Maratha movement was what you would call a "socio-political" movement, their primary aim was an establishment of an India wide Hindu empire.

You are some convent educated clown who just parrots what they taught you as "history" in ur school.

The following are more examples:

'Secret negotiations were opened with Nagoji Raje to the effect that if he joined with the Marathas they would break the enemy's forces and preserve the Hindu religion. He should therefore, come over to them ' Thereupon Nagoji Raje gave up service under the Mohammedans and withdrawing the attack entered the city with his battalion numbering five thousand...... when Shirke entered the service of the Moghuls (as Sambhaji had beheaded the Shirke family). Khandoji Ballal said, ' Shirkes had been beheaded : but similarly three of my ancestors were killed by being trampled under the foot of an elephant. But we are striving for the establishment of the kingdom of the Hindus and you must be our partners.' Then, Shirke also entered the plot and helped the Marathas with the result that Rajaram broke through the siege and escaped.


Tahmaspkulikhan (Nadirshah) is not a divine being so as to be able to destroy the whole creation. He is bound to come to terms with those that prove strong. Therefore Your Excellency (Bajirao) should come with a strong force. Peace can come only after a war. We can expect a decisive result if Your Excellency and the entire Rajput chiefs combine now. We must join together all the Hindus including Bundele and such others and we must present a more than brilliant front. Nadirshah does not intend to go back. He will directly march on the Hindu kingdoms.....Savai Jaysing wants that Ranaji (of Udepur) should be installed on the Imperial throne. The Hindu Kings including Savai are looking for the arrival of Your Excellency. In fact as soon as Your Excellency can give a strong backing Savaiji will send forces against Delhi and will also himself march.' ( Dhondo Govind's letters to Bajirao )




(Nanasaheb's letters)
1. When I read your letter I was simply thrilled with joy. Indeed I felt mightily happy. I cannot express all that fully in a letter. Literally my mind was flooded with thoughts. All the territory from the river Attock to the Indian Ocean is the land of Hindus and not of the Turks. These have been our frontiers from the times of Pandavas down to those of Vikramaditya. They preserved and enjoyed it. After them the rulers turned out to be quite effete and the Yavanas ( Mohammedans ) rose in power. The Moghuls seized the Kingdom of Hastinapur. And eventually during the regime of Alamgir we were reduced to such straits that the wearer of every Yandyopavita (the sacred thread) was required to pay a jijeya tax of Rs. 3-8 and to buy cooked food.
At such a juncture was born Shivaji Maharaj, the founder of the era and the protector of the religion. However his mission was confined to a limited area. Then came Nanasaheb and Bhausaheb of respected memory. Heroes of such pre-eminent prowess that the like of them have not been born. And now everything has been restored to us under the benign and illustrious auspices of Shrimant (Peshve) owing to the astuteness and valour of Patil Boa. But how was all this achieved! Because we had won we thought it had been an easy matter. If it had been the case of Mohammedans, volumes of histories would have been written about it. Amongst the Mohammedans even the smallest matter is extolled by them to the skies. While amongst us Hindus we are inclined not even to refer to our exploits however magnificent they may be. Indeed results difficult to achieve have been achieved. The Mohammedans think and say that the accursed Hindus have established their supremacy!
And really Patil Boa has broken the heads of those who tried to raise them. In fact the unachievable has been achieved. To establish order and reap its benefit like the great kings is still ahead. I am afraid our merits will fail and the work will be spoiled. The achievements are not limited to the acquisition of territory and regaining of our kingdom, but include the preservation of Vedas and Shastras, rehabilitation of religion, protection cows and Brahmins, establishment of suzerainty and the diffusion of our fame and victory. To keep all this intact depends on you and Patil Boa. If there is difference amongst you the enemy is bound to grow strong. Now my misgivings are at rest. It was really splendid ! Very excellent! The enemies are besetting us on all sides. I was very uneasy. Your letter has been a relief to me ( 1793 A. D. ).

All these are well known to any beginner in Maratha history.

And by the way ur constant announcements of u being "low" caste are irrelevant to the debate, so am I but I am also not a self hating clown who just repeats whatever others said about us.

[bigvig]

A waste of time talking to this useless cretin. He has been brainwashed in a system of education that was established to create obedient clerks and government servants. The most amateur student of Indian history would know that the Guptas reigned from about 200 AD onwards. Even schoolchildren are aware of the chronology of the main Indian kingdoms. And you expect to be taken seriously? You haven't even read anything and you don't seem to know what a primary source is.

The deeds of Shivaji himself can be seen as a "socio-political" movement. As a teenager he had pledged to establish a Hindavi Swaraj (Hindu Rule) and to rid the nation (not just Maharashtra) of foreign subjugation.
Anyway, as for nationhood, we find in the early scriptural works -
Sounds like a definition of a nation to me.

From: Vishnu Purana (2.3.1) uttaraṃ yatsamudrasya himādreścaiva dakṣiṇamvarṣaṃ tadbhārataṃ nāma bhāratī yatra santatiḥ"
The country (varṣam) that lies north of the ocean and south of the snowy mountains is called Bhāratam; there dwell the descendants of Bharata."

[Adux]

Ha, another BR vermin. great hail RSS. Where is the idea of India? That is no political-social Indian movement but rather expansion of their own kingdom. And even if maratha's had the idea, it is only a regional idea, there were never any acceptance for it (if ever there was one) from none of the other quaters. maratha empire was what it was 'maratha'. Hang on to RSS and VHP.

Regarding me being lower caste, it was one of my response to others that too a forigner for a completely different reason. Thankfully you are quite ably proving my point, i aint some self-hating clown, i am what i am. but then again you are a person stuck in some grandeur which never existed other than for some BR fora.

[Samarasimha]

Ha, another BR vermin. great hail RSS

Seems like you have gone off the rocker and have no real idea on how to counter my primary sources, if so my sympathies to u.

And you bumbling retard, i am neither on BR nor a fan of RSS, u just can't seem to fathom not all Indians are self hating brainwashed idiots.

But i do know from browsing that BR banned u cuz they realized that u belong in the wackshack not on forums for sane people.

[Adux]

From: Vishnu Purana (2.3.1) uttaraṃ yatsamudrasya himādreścaiva dakṣiṇamvarṣaṃ tadbhārataṃ nāma bhāratī yatra santatiḥ"
The country (varṣam) that lies north of the ocean and south of the snowy mountains is called Bhāratam; there dwell the descendants of Bharata."


Firstly,

That isnt socio-politco movement but rather a reilgious scripture very akin to all world is one from many other books. Keep on digging.

Secondly,

You have no idea what defined the known land mass to them. Did they know something existed beyond the moutains and oceans. is there any historical references which goes beyond 5000 years which is not some Hindu scripture...

[Ordie]

It seems that the Hindu Nationalists taking a lesson from the Chinese Nationalist in using the victim narrative to rationalize historical arguments and actions.

[sikh_warrior]

guys guys guys.......lets not get personal and emotional.....and lets not loose focus from the current threat to union of india from muslims living inside india and funding from pakistan and saudi arabia for madrasas in india.

we have to make sure no unauthorised religious schools come up in our neighbourhood and start preaching hate!

India was fragmented before british landed in india, we had our pitty differences....we have managed to over come those and union of india is the proof of that. the common army jawan on the border from all corners of india is living proof of that.

lets be on the guard now and make sure that what happened in 7th century and invaders came in.....must not happen again!

sword will be met with sword and bullet with bullet!

i will fire only when fired upon!

[Adux]

Seems like you have gone off the rocker and have no real idea on how to counter my primary sources, if so my sympathies to u.

And you bumbling retard, i am neither on BR nor a fan of RSS, u just can't seem to fathom not all Indians are self hating brainwashed idiots.

But i do know from browsing that BR banned u cuz they realized that u belong in the wackshack not on forums for sane people.

Glad to know, I am not wrong. Blame the Islamic bodeyman for taking the glory away from India, blame the brits for them too. But yay we Indians have never done anything wrong. What a good way to build a nation. Xenophobe cant even show me a proof a politcal movement which identifies today's india.

[Samarasimha]

And even if maratha's had the idea, it is only a regional idea, there were never any acceptance for it (if ever there was one) from none of the other quaters. maratha empire was what it was 'maratha'. Hang on to RSS and VHP.
You moron, we have ample proof that it was accepted, Sawai Jai Singh deliberately assisted them from behind the scenes in conquering Malwa because he approved of their idea of a Hindu Raj, Chhatrasal Bundela followed Shivaji's instructions and went back to Bundelkhand and established his own Hindu kingdom there.

I am neither RSS nor VHP, just shows u for the kind of shallow moron that u r when u can't counter anything but repeat ur bs.

[Adux]

It seems that the Hindu Nationalists taking a lesson from the Chinese Nationalist in using the victim narrative to rationalize historical arguments and actions.

And we have our share, these are people problems along with islamic one's who are the main barriers in having a true democratic secualrist nation.

[Samarasimha]

Xenophobe cant even show me a proof a politcal movement which identifies today's india.
Sorry but u can't show anything to the wilfully blind, i have quoted primary sources unlike ur rants, and thats all that matters in the end.

[Adux]

Sorry but u can't show anything to the wilfully blind, i have quoted primary sources unlike ur rants, and thats all that matters in the end.
what is this primary source you so gleefuly talk about? do post links, no other sources that you have cited hasnt shown anything.

[bigvig]

Ha, another BR vermin. great hail RSS.
Sounds like the whine of an exasperated loser who couldn't debate his way out of a box if his life depended on it.


And even if maratha's had the idea, it is only a regional idea, there were never any acceptance for it (if ever there was one) from none of the other quaters.More showcasing of woeful ignorance of Indian history. Everyone knows the fight against the Mughals and other Muslim potentates was spearheaded by Shivaji in the Deccan and South, Maharaja Chatrasal of Bundelkhand (in Central India) and Guru Gobind Singh in the North. Not to mention Lacchit Borphukan of Assam in East India or the numerous revolts headed by the Jats (ex: Gokul).


what is this primary source you so gleefuly talk about? do post links, no other sources that you have cited hasnt shown anything.

They are right there, posted under the letters. Do you have riverblindess or something?

[Adux]

You moron, we have ample proof that it was accepted, Sawai Jai Singh deliberately assisted them from behind the scenes in conquering Malwa because he approved of their idea of a Hindu Raj, Chhatrasal Bundela followed Shivaji's instructions and went back to Bundelkhand and established his own Hindu kingdom there.

I am neither RSS nor VHP, just shows u for the kind of shallow moron that u r when u can't counter anything but repeat ur bs.

What a lovely avatar.

Is Hindu Kingdom = India?

You are talking about MARATHA Empire building, did somebody else share the maratha vision, Tamils, UP, Andhra etc. If not, it is a regional doctrine. Did the Maratha's plan to Rule over other Hindu's or share power with them. Makes a differnce doesnt it.

[sikh_warrior]

Glad to know, I am not wrong. Blame the Islamic bodeyman for taking the glory away from India, blame the brits for them too. But yay we Indians have never done anything wrong. What a good way to build a nation. Xenophobe cant even show me a proof a politcal movement which identifies today's india.

come on dude....lay it off....we as independent india, had our own mess ups....
1948....nehru halted indian army from recapturing J&K and went to UN. 1962....we messed up with china cause nehru didnt had nuts strong enuf, 1971 indira would have settled J&K once and for all with 93000 pak soldiers as prisoners,
1999 kargil, 1999 khandhar hijack and bjp releasing terrorists
2001 parliament attack where army was mobilised on the border and bjp withdrew....

let focus on not repeating mistakes and stop appeasing minorities by offering haj subsidies.

lets do away with nuke policy of no first use
J&K doesnt belong to pak and neither to muslims...indians have sacrificed a lot for J&K.

[Samarasimha]

It seems that the Hindu Nationalists taking a lesson from the Chinese Nationalist in using the victim narrative to rationalize historical arguments and actions.

Sorry but i don't get what u r saying, there is nothing to rationalize here, everyone knows that the Marathas fought for a Hindu empire because of unrelenting Muslim persecution.

Funny how European Nationalists today don't seem to find fault with Charles Martel or others who resisted the islamic inroads into Europe but suddenly talk about "victim narrative" when it comes to Hindus.

When Europeans voluntarily bend over for Islamic fanatics then they have the right to lecture us to do the same.

[bigvig]

Firstly,

That isnt socio-politco movement but rather a reilgious scripture very akin to all world is one from many other books. Keep on digging.

Wow, you're thick aren't you? I specifically mentioned that it was in respect to nationhood.

[Adux]

Sounds like the whine of an exasperated loser who couldn't debate his way out of a box if his life depended on it.

Thats all dandy, not that care for you outbursts. So I will refrain and make it easier on the mods.



More showcasing of woeful ignorance of Indian history. Everyone knows the fight against the Mughals and other Muslim potentates was spearheaded by Shivaji in the Deccan and South, Maharaja Chatrasal of Bundelkhand (in Central India) and Guru Gobind Singh in the North. Not to mention Lacchit Borphukan of Assam in East India or the numerous revolts headed by the Jats (ex: Gokul).




And what happened? Do look at the timelines. Their idea was to GROUP agains the muslims for what, centuries of nostaligic non-existant dharmic idea of India. Was that their purpose, or save their own asses from the muslim invaders and their tiny fiefdoms of castiest orgies.



They are right there, posted under the letters. Do you have riverblindess or something?



Do they show the wide acceptance of some idea called India? Really? Look again.

[sikh_warrior]

if pakistan and bangladesh can be islamic countries.....i see no reason why india cant be a hindu nation!!

im all for india as a hindu nation!

[Adux]

Wow, you're thick aren't you? I specifically mentioned that it was in respect to nationhood.

Hope you have a clue what is Bharat varsha as said in the purna's to NATIONHOOD

[Adux]

if pakistan and bangladesh can be islamic countries.....i see no reason why india cant be a hindu nation!!

im all for india as a hindu nation!

Then we are no different than Pakistan or Bangladesh. Is that what we are?

Arent you sikh, Do you want to live in a Hindu nation, and I am a Hindu by birth not practice. I can understand and fully support your views on appeasement of Islam in the world and India. But does that mean that we have to become some other version of this "Islamic bogeyman" . Be the Devil to defeat the devil? Really?

[bigvig]

Hope you have a clue what is Bharat varsha as said in the purna's to NATIONHOOD

Your posts now are starting to resemble an incomprehensible jumble of words. Still I see no serious refutation to any of our replies.

[sikh_warrior]

i declare with the powers vested upon me by the people of union of india to declare India as Hindu nation and hence forth it will be refered to as BHARAT.

names like Hindustan and India are no longer in use and rendered useless!

end of the discussion and thank you very much for your support.

now lets get back to the topic of this thread!

[Adux]

come on dude....lay it off....we as independent india, had our own mess ups....
1948....nehru halted indian army from recapturing J&K and went to UN. 1962....we messed up with china cause nehru didnt had nuts strong enuf, 1971 indira would have settled J&K once and for all with 93000 pak soldiers as prisoners,
1999 kargil, 1999 khandhar hijack and bjp releasing terrorists
2001 parliament attack where army was mobilised on the border and bjp withdrew....

let focus on not repeating mistakes and stop appeasing minorities by offering haj subsidies.

lets do away with nuke policy of no first use
J&K doesnt belong to pak and neither to muslims...indians have sacrificed a lot for J&K.

Agreed to all above, I am no away supporting a pacifist appraoch, which has a allowed light weight player like Pakistan to punch above their weight on India. But not the crap with destroying the idea of democracy and secualrism. After all this Muslim bogeyman is over, for all you know these idiots might turn on other sections of Hindu's. I have seen enough caste violence to know that much.

I will not support anything that is against the current Indian Constitution, Thats what unite us. These people of diversity into one. It is traitorous, and I aint no Savarkar or HuJi

[Adux]

Your posts now are starting to resemble an incomprehensible jumble of words. Still I see no serious refutation to any of our replies.

I am sure that is, :roll:; You have no clue do you.

[Samarasimha]

what is this primary source you so gleefuly talk about? do post links, no other sources that you have cited hasnt shown anything.

Megasthenes was a primary source as were the letters I quoted. Link to the letter to Baji Rao:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1249
The letter to Nana Saheb can be found in savarkars Hindutva or Rajwade's "Sources of Maratha History" in 22 volumes.

So far all u have is ur rants.


You are talking about MARATHA Empire building, did somebody else share the maratha vision, Tamils, UP, Andhra etc. If not, it is a regional doctrine. Did the Maratha's plan to Rule over other Hindu's or share power with them. Makes a differnce doesnt it.

Are you thick or something?

Sawai Jai Singh was a Rajasthani not a Maratha

Chhatrasal Bundela was from modern UP.

Rani Chennamma who sheltered Rajaram and fought a war with Aurangzeb for it was a Kannadinga.

Kaviraj Bhushan was from the Hindi belt but wrote his poems praising Shivaji a Maratha in Braj Bhasha.

The Marathas planned to take over some areas while sharing power in other areas.

[sikh_warrior]

Adux i care for your concerned about caste system and violence in india.

a family has their internal disputes.....all familes have....all countries have....but we have to fight as one unit to the outside forces or even some people living inside.

[Adux]

The letter to Nana Saheb can be found in savarkars Hindutva or Rajwade's "Sources of Maratha History" in 22 volumes.


Ah, thank you. What a good book to cite as a source. Excellent. along with India-forums and BR political section.

/end sarcasm.

As as I said, Your avatar is a dead giveaway about your poltical inclinations; the OBL of Hindu's. Man accused in the murder of the father of our nation. Thank you. So easy to sport a RSS, VHP sock puppet

When you are at it, tell me about the political setup and of governece of the your grand allaince nations to defeat the muslims?

[Adux]

Adux i care for your concerned about caste system and violence in india.

a family has their internal disputes.....all familes have....all countries have....but we have to fight as one unit to the outside forces or even some people living inside.

Sikh Warrior

With all due respect, how old are you?


Adu

[sikh_warrior]

Sikh Warrior

With all due respect, how old are you?


Adu

36 years old.....may i ask your age?

[Adux]

36 years old.....may i ask your age?

by all means, 27,

[sikh_warrior]

well that makes us all responsible mature adult Bhartiya

let get back to the main topic of the thread.

[Adux]

PS: I am still looking for the grand political movement, which was somehow was missed on the internet and history textbooks other than ofcourse uber-national hindu's doctrine which is similar to Mao's little red book.

The uprising of jai singh, gobind singh and others were not for the creation of India or for the greater good, but rather fight a tyrant called aurgazeb, not very different from Allies in the world war 2 against hitler and Japan

[Ordie]

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-M. Gandhi

[Samarasimha]

You moron I also gave another source, why don't you go find it.

"Father of our nation" by what standards, the clown who told that all Hindus or sikhs that they should die at the hands of Muslims for peace.

And accused but never convicted.

Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, i said before that i am neither VHP nor RSS, get it through ur thick head.

now let us see u quote even a single source.

I believe in 1 vote per person, equal rights for all people (so that means no 4 wives for muslim males as it is now etc), freedom of speech and expression (so no rioting by ur beloved muslims over taslima nasreen, the same applies to Hindus over MF hussain), no gov't funding of religious stuff (such as haj pilgrimage or madrasas) or interference in religion (as long as it doesn't endanger the safety of other citizens), no support for an independent palestine and clear alliance with israel in areas of mutual benefit.

The defeat of Islam not Muslims will follow if the above is implemented strictly, people are afraid to criticize islam because they are afraid that they will be killed and gov't doesn't offer them any protection.

Oh and finally teaching history as it happened not distorted versions like u parrot.

[Adux]

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-M. Gandhi

Not the greatest admirer of his ideology or his path for my natio, but still a great admirer of the person with all his faults. Truely one of a kind.

[Samarasimha]

Ordie may i suggest that Europeans and other Western countries follow Gandhi's advice and see where it gets u guys.

[Samarasimha]

"PS: I am still looking for the grand political movement, which was somehow was missed on the internet and history textbooks other than ofcourse uber-national hindu's doctrine which is similar to Mao's little red book.

The uprising of jai singh, gobind singh and others were not for the creation of India or for the greater good, but rather fight a tyrant called aurgazeb, not very different from Allies in the world war 2 against hitler and Japan"

You may need some eye surgery before you can see, but people who read the letters will know that its a clear refutation of ur idea that medieval indians never saw themselves as one (u didn't say anything about the creation of todays india).

[Adux]

Is that supposed to wind me up.

"Father of our nation" by what standards, the clown who told that all Hindus or sikhs that they should die at the hands of Muslims for peace.


Well, he is the father of the nation, and you cant do anything about it.:)
And NO I dont agree with his ideology or his means. But he is and was more of a person than any of the BJP nutjobs who by the way played along with brits. Where is our atalji..lol. Spineless. Atleast ***-crazed gandhi had the convictions about his beliefs.



And accused but never convicted.


So is OJ.


Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, i said before that i am neither VHP nor RSS, get it through ur thick head.


Really, I mean seriously. With that avatar, who you kidding.


now let us see u quote even a single source.

Again, and Again and Again. Show me a socio-political movement other than under Indian Congeress which had widespread support and acceptance for a single country, and is the closest reflection of modern day india.


I believe in 1 vote per person, equal rights for all people (so that means no 4 wives for muslim males as it is now etc), freedom of speech and expression (so no rioting by ur beloved muslims over taslima nasreen, the same applies to Hindus over MF hussain), no gov't funding of religious stuff (such as haj pilgrimage or madrasas) or interference in religion (as long as it doesn't endanger the safety of other citizens), no support for an independent palestine and clear alliance with israel in areas of mutual benefit.

Thats all very dandy, "by my beloved muslims". Shows the sheer hatered, and racism to a section of the mankind.


The defeat of Islam not Muslims will follow if the above is implemented strictly, people are afraid to criticize islam because they are afraid that they will be killed and gov't doesn't offer them any protection.

You are quite insecure little man arent you.


Oh and finally teaching history as it happened not distorted versions like u parrot.
Thankfully for me and india, you seem to know everything. yay

[bigvig]

The uprising of jai singh, gobind singh and others were not for the creation of India or for the greater good, but rather fight a tyrant called aurgazeb, not very different from Allies in the world war 2 against hitler and Japan

The chronicles and letters which Samara has posted all reveal their intention of creating a Hindavi Swarajya and establishing a Hindu nation. Shivaji himself pledged to realize his dream of establishing a Hindu nation as a teenager. You're utterly lacking in anything beyond posting diatribes against us.

[Adux]

You may need some eye surgery before you can see, but people who read the letters will know that its a clear refutation of ur idea that medieval indians never saw themselves as one (u didn't say anything about the creation of todays india).

Where is the idea of India?, they never saw as one, but rather an allaince against a common foe, nothing more. Reading into something, that doesnt exist there. Shrieks of Nationalist of the not very good kind.

[Samarasimha]

You are quite insecure little man arent you.

You are quite the little troll aren't you?

i don't have time to debate with trolls, when u have any sources to quote for ur worthless rants come back.

[Ordie]

Ordie may i suggest that Europeans and other Western countries follow Gandhi's advice and see where it gets u guys.

United States generally does.

We are known to make good friends of former enemies and erase our collective memories.

After all, you can't drive forward if you keep looking at the rear view mirror.

[bigvig]

Where is the idea of India?, they never saw as one, but rather an allaince against a common foe, nothing more. Reading into something, that doesnt exist there. Shrieks of Nationalist of the not very good kind.
This guy is truly blind.

[Adux]

The chronicles and letters which Samara has posted all reveal their intention of creating a Hindavi Swarajya and establishing a Hindu nation. Shivaji himself pledged to realize his dream of establishing a Hindu nation as a teenager. You're utterly lacking in anything beyond posting diatribes against us.


Again one man's vision. What was the bounderies, political ideology, power of non-maratha speaking subjects of the said kingdom and mode of governance of his vision? Do show maps.

Do keep showering the insults, I will keep away from it and wait for the mods.

Allaince was military alliance against aurganzeb, an evil tyrant. It never had any of those objectives which I stated above which is needed for the creation of a nation.

[Adux]

This guy is truly blind.

Especially since I dont agree with your ideology and line of thought, I truely must be blind.

[Clayton Gold]

@Samarasimha (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=53846):

I was quite enjoying lurking in this thread until you entered it.

While you do bring some good points to the discussion, your posting style of offering a personal attack with every post is very irritating, and takes away any credibility. This would be a much better discussion if you would grow up a bit.

Apologies for off-topic.

[Adux]

United States generally does.

We are known to make good friends of former enemies and erase our collective memories.

After all, you can't drive forward if you keep looking at the rear view mirror.

Britan and japan comes to mind.

[bigvig]

Everything has been posted. Go a few pages back. You're intent on repeating the same garbage again and again and again, absolutely no proof. Everything you said has been refuted multiple times over. Shivaji himself pledged to establish a Hindu Nation for the welfare and security of Hindus all over India. His actions and the work of his successors makes this fact quite obvious.

[Adux]

Everything has been posted. Go a few pages back. You're intent on repeating the same garbage again and again and again, absolutely no proof. Everything you said has been refuted multiple times over. Shivaji himself pledged to establish a Hindu Nation for the welfare and security of Hindus all over India. His actions and the work of his successors makes this fact quite obvious.

Show me the proof of his vision, than some mere lines people wrote to each other to keep allainces and fight on, a common foe. Lets all protect cows and brahmins about what a Hindu meant in those days. Says quite lot doesnt it especially about the lower caste who would have somehow be saved by the Hindu Kingdom. Because it was the Muslims and Brits who did casteist oppression. Not that they were any different with all with their jizya et al.

You have NONE, to prove a single kingdom idea theory for a nationalistic agenda, whoever want to control all was idea of expansion of land for wealth not for the great good of some ideology.

[bigvig]

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

I personally can't stand to debate history with a guy who has no knowledge of it.

Who thinks the Guptas ruled BCE. What a joke.

[Adux]

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

I personally can't stand to debate history with a guy who has no knowledge of it.

Who thinks the Guptas ruled BCE. What a joke.

Yes, a small mistake on my part, is the answer of all questions i asked..lol
Thank me, for giving you way out. Goodbye.

[sikh_warrior]

You moron I also gave another source, why don't you go find it.

"Father of our nation" by what standards, the clown who told that all Hindus or sikhs that they should die at the hands of Muslims for peace.

And accused but never convicted.

Obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, i said before that i am neither VHP nor RSS, get it through ur thick head.

now let us see u quote even a single source.

I believe in 1 vote per person, equal rights for all people (so that means no 4 wives for muslim males as it is now etc), freedom of speech and expression (so no rioting by ur beloved muslims over taslima nasreen, the same applies to Hindus over MF hussain), no gov't funding of religious stuff (such as haj pilgrimage or madrasas) or interference in religion (as long as it doesn't endanger the safety of other citizens), no support for an independent palestine and clear alliance with israel in areas of mutual benefit.

The defeat of Islam not Muslims will follow if the above is implemented strictly, people are afraid to criticize islam because they are afraid that they will be killed and gov't doesn't offer them any protection.

Oh and finally teaching history as it happened not distorted versions like u parrot.

im 100% with you on this!!!

adux you have any inputs for your muslim brothers living in india!

[Adux]

im 100% with you on this!!!

adux you and any inputs for your muslim brothers living in india!

very mature...lol now i am on the other side for challenging some views by clearly prejudiced characters, you arent sikh religion follower are you? would be the first sikh to aspire to live in a Hindu Hindustan as unequal citizen!!

[sikh_warrior]

Yes, a small mistake on my part, is the answer of all questions i asked..lol
Thank me, for giving you way out. Goodbye.

if i may ask where you living currently? if not in india....have you checked the demography of kerala lately comparing % of populations of hindus, christian and muslims since 1947?

just do a check and post the stats here!

you will notice the rise of muslim population against hindus and christians and a big surge!

[Ordie]

if not in india....have you checked the demography of kerala lately comparing % of populations of hindus, christian and muslims since 1947?

What about the number of Indians?

[Adux]

What about the number of Indians?

I rest my case, thank you.

Learns something people, that above only makes sense and anybody who is doing taqqiyah will get the boot as they should.

[sikh_warrior]

very mature...lol now i am on the other side for challenging some views by clearly prejudiced characters, you arent sikh religion follower are you? would be the first sikh to aspire to live in a Hindu Hindustan as unequal citizen!!

bro you are not on the otherside.....

samar never talked about hindu bharat......you assumed him to be rss and vhp.

i guess sikhs never fought or attacked an hindu kingdoms during guru gobind singh ji era.

marathas and sikhs came together to faught against the islamic invaders.

i dont have any problem living in Hindu Bharat.

[Adux]

if i may ask where you living currently? if not in india....have you checked the demography of kerala lately comparing % of populations of hindus, christian and muslims since 1947?

just do a check and post the stats here!

you will notice the rise of muslim population against hindus and christians and a big surge!

The muslims of kerala are ethinically, racially from KERALA. Its their choice to be christain, islamic or chair worshippers. Its not your decision. They are not emmigrants. I have seen enough Indian Muslim army men to know what true patriotism is. The problem of PETRO-Dollars brain washing is a different issue and should be tackled without mercy so should be hindu nutjob ideologies.

By the way it is 800 million Hindu's to 160 million Muslims.


Thank YOu.

[Adux]

bro you are not on the otherside.....

samar never talked about hindu bharat......you assumed him to be rss and vhp.

i guess sikhs never fought or attacked an hindu kingdoms during guru gobind singh ji era.

marathas and sikhs came together to faught against the islamic invaders.

i dont have any problem living in Hindu Bharat.

Look at his Avatar and political ideology. Do you have any clue about their beliefs. Any minority religion living in a majority ruled Religion based Country; is asking for trouble. Proved time and beyond. So stop sucking up. All those armymen in your avatar, took an oath protect India and her constitution. Read it and honour them.

Thank you.

[Ordie]

Any minority religion living in a majority ruled Religion based Country; is asking for trouble. Proved time and beyond.

It is the responsibility of a Democracy to protect the minority from the majority.

[Ordie]

Here's a US State Department position paper on Democracy and the Freedom of Religion.

Source:http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/principles/religion.htm



Freedom of Religion
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/principles/image/majority.jpg
All citizens should be free to follow their conscience in matters of religious faith. Freedom of religion includes the right to worship alone or with others, in public or private, and to participate in religious observance, practice, and teaching without fear of persecution from government or other groups in society.
<LI type=disc>All people have the right to worship or assemble in connection with a religion or belief, and to establish and maintain places for these purposes.

<LI type=disc>Like other fundamental human rights, religious freedom is not created or granted by the state, but all states should protect it. Democracies include language pertaining to protection of religious freedom in their constitutions.

<LI type=disc>Although many democracies may choose to recognize an official separation of church and state, the values of government and religion are not in fundamental conflict.

<LI type=disc>Democracies generally do not create governmental agencies or other official bodies to regulate religious affairs, although they may require houses of worship and religious groups to register for administrative or tax purposes.

<LI type=disc>Governments that protect religious freedom for all their citizens are more likely to protect other rights necessary for religious freedom, such as free speech and assembly.

<LI type=disc>Genuine democracies recognize that individual religious differences must be respected and that a key role of government is to protect religious choice, even in cases where the state sanctions a particular religious faith. Democracies also:
° Do not determine the content of religious publications, education, or sermons.
° Respect the right of parents to direct the religious education of their children.
° Prohibit incitement of religious-based violence against others.
° Protect members of ethnic, religious, or linguistic minorities.
° Allow people to observe days of rest associated with their faith and to celebrate holy days in accordance with their beliefs.
° Allow interfaith movements to flourish, as members of different faiths seek common ground on various issues and cooperate to solve challenges facing the entire population.
° Provide the freedom for government and religious officials, nongovernmental organizations, and journalists to investigate reports of religious persecution.
° Respect the right of religious organizations to freely participate and contribute to civil society — to operate faith-based schools, run hospitals and care for the aged, and create other programs and activities that benefit the society.

[Adux]

It is the responsibility of a Democracy to protect the minority from the majority.

exactly,Therefore it is imperative india remains a secular democratic republic. that said there is a great threat from islamism to that same fabric and the appeasement of them is bringing majority into feeling dismayed. I advocate to strike the monster of terrorism and extremism without us becoming a monster

[sikh_warrior]

so much of the freedom of religion! i like yanks getting tough on the slims! its been time!

SAN FRANCISCO, May 30: Alarmed by a report that mosques in Los Angeles and San Diego are under surveillance, Muslim civil rights groups have called for Congressional hearings on the matter.

The call for public hearings followed a San Diego newspaper report that a group of military reservists and law-enforcement officers at Camp Pendleton Marine base stole data from a federal surveillance programme that monitored mosques in Southern California.

In a joint letter sent to the Congressional Committees on the Judiciary and Oversight and Government Reform, the California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, San Diego and Imperial Counties and the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California expressed concern over the civil rights violations posed by the alleged monitoring of US citizens on the basis of their religious affiliation.

Samina Faheem Sundas, executive director of the American Muslim Voice, said: “This confirms our fears that mosques and Muslim community organisations are a target of government surveillance that only encourages further unwarranted suspicion of the American Muslim community.”

http://dawn.com/2008/05/31/top13.htm

[oldsoak]

Ordie may i suggest that Europeans and other Western countries follow Gandhi's advice and see where it gets u guys.

- I dont think you can compare the peculiar circumstances in which Ghandi set out to achieve for Indian independence with what we're facing in the west. His approach works where you are dealing with people who can be made to realise their position has no moral support by questioning their own values. It requires that your opposition is rational, has similar concepts and ideals and understands what we would would class as moral arguement. Had the British been muslim fundamentalists, the approach may not have worked.

What we are facing does not share those values as you and I are only too well aware.

Had Ghandi advocated violence, the cost all round in human lives would have been astronomical. Indians would have faced not only the British but fellow Indians. There would have been those fighting for the British, those fighting against the British - and Jinnah watching which way things went. For all his faults, Ghandis weapon of peaceful pressure was the best route for everyone in the Indian set of circumstances. I think we have to give credit where its due, and the fact that Ghandi is highly regarded by the very people whose domination he ended says something about the man.

[Adux]

Indians couldnt have fought the Imperial Great Britain. It is fact. There was no political entity or anyother body which could have withstood the onslaught of British forces, who were by in large Indians themselves. We all know how much gurilla war especially in those times would have achieved . Blood spilled futile. Non-Violence was what he thought was within capbility of Indians, He did what he could, Nobody else could even garner support, Though I dont think it is the primary reason why we got our independence. World War 2 was, which caused the death of British Empire.

[sikh_warrior]

in a recent poll conducted by a prominent indian magazine "India Today" for the greatest indian ever. the following were the top three:

1. Shaheed Sardar Bhagat Singh
2. The Great Subhash Chandra Bose
3. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

the result reflects the mood of the nation as of current times.

gandhi had his time!! we are done with him!

[Adux]

Gandhi and all of the above have had their time, and are great men who are brave and humble enough to have their own space and glory in history without taking an inch from the other fellow. Internet warrior's will never understand how much humility takes you in life.

[Ordie]

Internet warrior's will never understand how much humility takes you in life.

That is because internet warriors are anonymous beings typing in front of a screen without seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching humanity.

India has given the world a treasure in Gandhi.

His message has insipred my country to be a better place through Dr. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement.

[sikh_warrior]

our family has seen the worse, from riots of 1947 to 1984....you guys just cant imagine what is it like facing death!

i feel sorry for your ignorance.....its for both of you adux and ordi and for your friend gandhi too!

[Adux]

our family has seen the worse, from riots of 1947 to 1984....you guys just cant imagine what is it like facing death!

i feel sorry for your ignorance.....its for both of you adux and ordi and for your friend gandhi too!


So Gandhi organized the riots, really?
Partition was Gandhi's fault, or was it because of Indian Muslim League ? I am not the greatest supporter of Gandhi, his philosophy or weird ****** antics, and I understand the problem of Islamism, but you are racist towards a section of people who follow a certain religion, how are you different from the people you are advocating against? I am suprised that mods have allowed you till now, and you are definitly not 37. And you will never be to the world what that MAN was. So keep tapping on the keyboard keyboard warrior.

You have no clue about what you are talking about? do you. along with the person who carries the picture and literature of Indian version Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf. I suggest you post in BR, where they will accept this kind of talk.

[sikh_warrior]

when islam invaded india.....those who were weak converted to islam....those who resisted and fought back became Sikhs(Khalsa)!

i think you read my replies properly.....i always wrote that i will fire when fired upon, strike back when struck upon!

now a new version is in town called "pre-emptive" strike, invented by yanks!

adux i think living far away from india has made you weak! signs of weakness are clearly visible in your replies....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=134829&page=7

[Calanen]

Can we please not have a war about India in this thread? It was about an Islamic school in Australia.

[Adux]

when islam invaded india.....those who were weak converted to islam....those who resisted and fought back became Sikhs(Khalsa)!

i think you read my replies properly.....i always wrote that i will fire when fired upon, strike back when struck upon!

now a new version is in town called "pre-emptive" strike, invented by yanks!

adux i think living far away from india has made you weak! signs of weakness are clearly visible in your replies....

I live in INDIA, I am in COCHIN NOW, Hmm so talk to me about subjugation of fellow hindus as sub-humans for centuries. So what do we about those so called upper-caste? You are a racist and are therefore quite weak, I am not an Soldier and I am not against shooting the ass of anyone who is against Indian Constitution in its spirit and letter. That includes everyone. It is your right to follow sikhism and somebody else's right to follow Islam as long as everyone follow our rules and laws which are secular and democratic, and for your information South Indian Muslims especially Kerala muslims converted by choice like the christains to get out of the caste opperssion or maybe they liked it better.

I am done with you.

Goodbye.

[sikh_warrior]

im really sorry about swaying away from the topic.....i promise i will not post another reply away from the topic.

im not in favour of having a religious school if its being used to spread haterd and its setting up is a discomfort to the natives of a non-muslim western country which is secular and democratic.

[LRPV]

This thread has more lives than a cat.

[LRPV]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6045114,00.jpg

[sikh_warrior]

aussies seriously need to make it strict for immigrants to come and must decide whom aussies want!

[Ordie]

aussies seriously need to make it strict for immigrants to come and must decide whom aussies want!

Overall, immigration has been good for Australia as well as the United States. Immigrants thrive in a democratic-capitalist society where they have the freedom to fail.

At issue is the freedom of worship and not restricting that fundamental freedom.

[Ordie]

when islam invaded india.....those who were weak converted to islam....those who resisted and fought back became Sikhs(Khalsa)!


Even God can't change the past.

[PeterRJG]

aussies seriously need to make it strict for immigrants to come and must decide whom aussies want!

We already do make it strict. Especially in comparison to the US or the EU. It's not impossible to migrate here obviously, but it's certainly more expensive and involves a bit more bureaucratic groundwork than a lot of places.

[Ordie]

We already do make it strict. Especially in comparison to the US or the EU. It's not impossible to migrate here obviously, but it's certainly more expensive and involves a bit more bureaucratic groundwork than a lot of places.

My cousin immigrated from Argentina to Australia 30 years ago. The Aussie Govt. provided subsidized housing for the 1st year, free English language lessons, a craft trade and job posting.

After two years he became a citizen, married his English teacher, worked as an electrician for 20 years. And is now ready to retire at a farm.

He left Argentina because he was a Communist.

But he's forever indebted to Australia.

[PeterRJG]

That's Australia of yore, Ordie. Gone are those days, probably gone forever.

As of 2008, most migration streams to Australia are fairly tight. As usual, the best way is to either marry an Aussie or be a Kiwi.

[oldsoak]

in a recent poll conducted by a prominent indian magazine "India Today" for the greatest indian ever. the following were the top three:

1. Shaheed Sardar Bhagat Singh
2. The Great Subhash Chandra Bose
3. Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

the result reflects the mood of the nation as of current times.

gandhi had his time!! we are done with him!

With all due respect, what did Bhagat Singh and Chandra Bose deliver for India above what Ghandi did ? I get the impression that India is dissatisfied with a hero that was not "forceful" enough with the opposition - possibly due to growing dissatisfaction with the way India always seems to behave passively in the face of provocation. This is a great pity, Ghandi alone advocated non violence - no other winner of independence for their country that I know of has advocated that approach and as such India should be justly proud.

[Adux]

oldsoak,

While all of them great, Bose and Singh failed to deliever anything tangible while Gandhi did. We were against Imperial Britain, the greatest empire this world has seen, at its full glory. We were always people with different backgrounds with NO central force or idea. Then how can we win with force. Gandhi did what he could, how he knew, I respect him for that. There is a growing disatisfication of India's passive attitude and growing extremism from Islam, but the fault of that doesnt lie with Gandhi but the people itself who are passive. Gandhi has been dead 60 years, and we have free n fair elections why didnt anyone of the right-wingers come up instead of the Indian Congress. Government is as good as the people it represents.

In my opinion the person who destroyed this nation to some extent was Nehru.

[oldsoak]

I think how India solves the extremism will be of great interest to us - I am hoping we co-operate more in rooting the extremists out. India has a wealth of knowledge in this area. Be good to see Kashmiri terrorists bounced back to India and into the welcoming arms of the secret services.

[Adux]

oldsoak,

Kashmiri Terrorist for the last 8 years have been filled with Pakistani's, Afghans, Arabs and Other natioanlities. They cant get much Kashmiri's now. Jihad is a world product, ask the russians. They will tell us much about how chechan war was financed from the middle east.

There have been some excess from Indian troops and they have been duly punished, but as for the Kashmiri people, who will they complain too when the terrorist forcibly stay in their home, take their belongings and rape their women. And we dont use aerial force, but rather painstaking door by door operations. Which is bloody but avoids collateral damage very very important for winning hearts and minds. With all this let me add, no matter how saintly we are, we will never equal a fellow muslim in their eyes. Humanity has lesser value for them, when it comes religion.

One of things US could learn from us is about our Moutain Divisions, we also have two strike moutain divisions. I have personally met US officers training in Indian Moutain as well as Jungle Warfare Schools.

US has to keep its ally, Pakistan. Unlike the rest of the world and I might have my bias, we are very well aware for their tentacles. Zia has made modern day Pakistan, a religious nuthouse. As along US does not commit into really seeing terrorising for what it is: Pakistan. We will have very less interaction. I always wondered when will US learn, that Pakistan isnt fighting WoT but rather buying time.

[sikh_warrior]

atleast we share some of the same views....thanx adux!

nehru....pakistan....islam in india....kashmir.....