Iraqi dad says US forces killed son in cold blood

[eurekaa]

Iraqi dad says US forces killed son in cold blood

Version of events contradict military accounts

BAGHDAD - Iraqi teenager Abbas Khadum died in his father’s arms; one of 25 men locals say were shot dead in a single day by U.S. troops in a crackdown on Shiite militiamen in east Baghdad.


His mother fought back tears while his father held a picture of the 19-year-old, his hair slicked back and dressed in a smart shirt buttoned up to his chin, as he gave his version of how U.S. troops had killed his son.

“In the middle of the night, the Americans positioned themselves on a roof of a nearby building site which overlooks the wall,” Khadum’s father, Abu Abbas, said, his bespectacled face framed in a traditional red keffiyeh scarf.

“At dawn, I stepped out of my house to go to prayers, and I found a bloodied body on my doorstep. It was a laborer who had come to work on a building site close to the wall.

“Neighbors telephoned me to say I shouldn’t go out because the Americans were shooting anything that moved.

“A little later, Said Saad, a man who sold drinks, who everyone in the district knew, was also killed. Then one of my neighbors, Sabah Mahdi, had his head blown off by a bullet,” Khadum’s father said, as his wife wept.
“About 11 am, my son was due to go to university with his friends. With all the shooting, he told them not to come and meet him at the house, but to wait a few streets away.

“He left and then a few minutes later, I was called and told he had been wounded. I raced to him. He had been shot in the back, at shoulder level. He was still breathing. He died in my arms as we took him to hospital,” he said.
That evening, a US soldier went to photograph the body at the mortuary and told Abu Abbas that the teenager was shot after attempting to bring down the wall.

Khadum had not been in trouble before and “was not involved in politics,” his family and friends said.

“It is true that people used to try and knock down the wall, but they came from other districts,” his father added.

Responding to claims his son was placing roadside bombs, Abu Abbas said Shiite militiamen “don’t plant bombs on main streets in Baghdad in broad daylight.”




http://www.onlines.ws/wp-content/img/sadr_children.jpg
children were injured after two projectiles fell into two separate places in Sadr city last April ( archive )

Roadside bombs

U.S. forces, for their part, said Khadum was one of 11 “special group” criminals — a term used to describe fighters armed, funded and trained by Iranians — attempting to plant roadside bombs. His parents say he was just walking to university.

Khadum’s family live in the heart of the Shiite-dominated Al-Obeidi neighborhood, where many followers of firebrand cleric Moqtada al-Sadr are rumored to have sought refuge after being driven out of nearby Sadr City.


The neighborhood has been a regular scene of bloody battles between U.S. soldiers and Sadr’s Mahdi Army fighters after Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki ordered a crackdown on militias.

Mahdi army militiamen fought deadly street battles with U.S. forces in the Shiite slum Sadr City for seven weeks until a truce was agreed, which took effect on May 10.

Khadum’s family home, an anonymous rectangular building with an iron gate, is around a dozen meters (yards) from a wide main road, part-hidden by a large concrete wall erected in mid May by U.S. forces to disrupt militia activities.

U.S. forces built concrete barriers throughout Baghdad in a bid to prevent insurgents launching roadside bomb attacks on military convoys and to block militia movements.

People angry at the presence of the ugly grey barrier protested and launched regular attacks against it, to bring it crashing down.

But, according to Abu Abbas, American forces hit back. That same day, May 21, saw a total of 25 people, all men, killed by American gunfire close to the Al-Obeidi wall, according to the district’s residents.

Cameraman Wissam Ali Ouda, who worked for private Iraqi television station Afaq, was among those killed; shot dead returning home after work.


Source : ( onlines news ) (http://www.onlines.ws/?p=610)

[eurekaa]

When it comes to talk about the war in Iraq , we see TWO pictures given by media , the one that is above in the article , and also what we all heard about Abu Gharib preson ,,etc

Lets call it The bad picture ...

And the other pictures its as shown in the pictures below which represent the good side of U.S troops in IRAQ , Afghanistan .etc

Which picture is right and which is not , I do not know , maybe both are rights , or maybe the media mislead us .. I can not tell really because I never been in Iraq and all I know about the situation in there is only what our media do tell us ..

And always there are two stories , the one we hear from U.S media like CNN/Foxnews etc and the other totally different story from Aljazeera , alrabia net etc .

Maybe people who served in Iraq may tell us their pictures or point of view as they do see it from their place ..

Any way , right or not , this is what we get from the war and this is the price that we pay , does it really deserve !

There is no question that Saddam Hussein was tyrant dictator as most of other RULERS in the middle east , but at least Iraq was more stable in his time , the number of people who died in his 30 years ruled Iraq is nothing to mention comparing to more then 700 000 Iraqi died in the civil war last 5 years .. ( Im not sure about the right number but this is what we hear from our media ) .


http://stupidjuice.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/united_states_troops_with_iraqi_children_04.jpg

http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesPhotoGallery/Caring/CaptHugsIraqGirl.jpg



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2006/10/31/2003333293.jpg


http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesPhotoGallery/Caring/FacesCounterinsurgency.jpg


http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/photoessay/essay3/images/image6_04082003-512h.jpg

[Sanat-e-naft]

I agree, there are two stories the good and the bad. However, the bad stories must be told so that it keeps us honest and makes sure we are accountable for what we do.

[eurekaa]

I agree, there are two stories the good and the bad. However, the bad stories must be told so that it keeps us honest and makes sure we are accountable for what we do.

We Just need to know the truth , Our media tell the events the way suit their politician and their countries policies , or the way that their targeted readers want to hear it , just for more attention and more traffic for their network.

In few words .. They LIES / mislead us , they do not care if they mess and fvck with the world's mind and principles if they are doing good having more money or whatever is their aim .

Yes the bad side of what we hear in Iraq must be told , but should be told as its , not less and not more without LIES .

Also its The same for the good side stories ,

Our medias and govs/politicians mess up with our minds .. and the more they play with our brains the more we hate each other for things these are not real or do not even exist ..

[12oclock]

the number of people who died in his 30 years ruled Iraq is nothing to mention comparing to more then 700 000 Iraqi died in the civil war last 5 years .. ( Im not sure about the right number but this is what we hear from our media )
700,000? Not quite buddy, no where near that many people have died in IRaq since 2003. I'm not gonna go do research on it but I'd say around 150,000, 250,000 at most.

[Somalimafia]

Hearts and minds. Hearts and minds...


this is what we get from the war and this is the price that we pay

Quite incorrect, it is the price that they pay. We haven't suffered **** compared to them.

[Calanen]

This is what this article is talking about (although this is in Baghdad):

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5127/baghdadconcretewallok0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The most likely scenario is, that this young guy thought it would be cool to push the concrete barricade over. And it cost him his life. But of course the propaganda is going to be, poor innocent kid just got shot for no reason by big bad Americans. But of course they are going to say this.

Just like this woman saying that bullets were fired by Americans into her home (from a magic gun):

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9122/bulletladyvs7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Innocent people die in all wars, and are killed by all sides to the conflict - it cannot be avoided.

However, the vast majority of innocent people in Iraq, have been killed by other Arabs, and they have been killed deliberately. Suicide bombers in markets and shops, or on the way to the mosque. America does not do that, or anything like that. And America is not responsible for the depraved behaviour of terrorists.

Free us from America says the insurgency, but we will do it by deliberately killing the civilians in this country - and then that somehow is Americas fault. I saw that terrorists even have a name for these civilians they kill - 'involuntary martyrs'. Ridiculous.

[egyptian73]

us invading iraq was a grave mistake
us staying there was more grave one
us leaving iraq is simply a disaster for the whole middle east .

[szr]

us invading iraq was a grave mistake
us staying there was more grave one
us leaving iraq is simply a disaster for the whole middle east .
Cool, can I get that written in Arabic on a green headband?

[Calanen]

Just call 1-800-HAMAS. They make them to order.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8777/hamaskd5.png (http://imageshack.us)

[INAT]

700,000? Not quite buddy, no where near that many people have died in IRaq since 2003. I'm not gonna go do research on it but I'd say around 150,000, 250,000 at most.


Wow that comes of as ignorant.How can you talk when you don't know or do you just pull numbers out of the air.I did do some quick research and came up with this from the BBC estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university. And this is from 2006
The death toll number is a big controversy so I would give or take from this number.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm

The point is this is a tragic situation both for the people as well as the American soldiers that have to make that impossible choice.

[greatza1]

700,000? Not quite buddy, no where near that many people have died in IRaq since 2003. I'm not gonna go do research on it but I'd say around 150,000, 250,000 at most.
12ocock you`re again eating ****, now how`s my spell?Before making an statement get some evidence.Everyone can say whatever wants but need some evidences in support of his words.So don`t be lazy , type few words on google and you get this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003
If you don`t believe Wiki check this , i know it`s british but they are objective http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq , and if is not enough to convince you how about CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
So before saying that ,,after my opinion`` i believe , use the search button or brain :cantbeli:

[Mu-Meson]

From the above link:

The Johns Hopkins researchers argue their "cluster sample" approach is more reliable than counting dead bodies

Ha! So actually counting the dead bodies is less accurate? Sure......

[Hollis]

12ocock you`re again eating ****, now how`s my spell?
So before saying that ,,after my opinion`` i believe , use the search button or brain :cantbeli:


How about chilling out on the insults.

[TALOS]

12ocock you`re again eating ****, now how`s my spell?Before making an statement get some evidence.Everyone can say whatever wants but need some evidences in support of his words.So don`t be lazy , type few words on google and you get this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003
If you don`t believe Wiki check this , i know it`s british but they are objective http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq , and if is not enough to convince you how about CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
So before saying that ,,after my opinion`` i believe , use the search button or brain :cantbeli:

one: wiki is suspect more often then not, 2: the guardian is hardly objective and 3: from the article you posted,

Researchers randomly selected 1,849 households across Iraq and asked questions about births and deaths and migration for the study led by Gilbert Burnham of Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland. The Center for International Studies at Massachusetts Institute of Technology cooperated.

They extrapolated the figures to reflect the national picture, saying Iraq's death rate had more than doubled since the invasion.

On Wednesday, Burnham defended his team's methodology, saying it was the standard used in developing countries to survey for HIV and other major health issues he said. In 87 of the interviews conducted, the researchers asked for death certificates, and people were able to produce one 92 percent of the time, he said.

In 13 percent of the interviews, the researchers had forgotten to ask for certificates, he said.


They did not ask families whether their dead were civilians or fighters
Now maybe its just me but seems a fairly inaccurate way to get facts. But then, I have always dislike polls and surveys when it comes to accuracy

[Mordecai]

...Just like this woman saying that bullets were fired by Americans into her home (from a magic gun):

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9122/bulletladyvs7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



That is awesome. Usually when I fire rounds into someone's house only the lead leaves the barrel, not the brass. :roll: More of that quality reporting you guys depend on for your information on the war...

I understand its easy for you to pass judgment on the decisions of the POTUS, as well as the soldiers who are the instruments of America's foreign policy, when you are sitting in the safety of your living room and not having to make difficult decisions, unless you consider difficult deciding between pepperoni or Italian sausage on your pizza. But it is a very different story when you are looking down the business end of an RPG, AK, or are driving down Tampa everyday hoping something doesnt go boom when you pass by or are the General Officer, SecDef, or CinC who has made the decision to put you in that place. You have that luxury; we do not.

As for the news itself, most people are more drawn to bad news than the good. Given this, negative reporting will time and again draw a bigger audience than positive. As well, there are plenty of people out there, some in our own congress, who I believe in my heart of hearts wouldnt be too terribly upset if we failed so they could again point fingers and say, "I told you so."

There is plenty of good things going on in Iraq and in Afghanistan and we will eventually win this but it isnt going to happen over night and it wont happen before the general elections. This isnt a conventional war we are fighting and it will not be won with bombs and tanks but by soldiers getting out of their tracks; walking the streets, meeting people; and controlling their battlespace. It is an insurgency and to win the war we must win the hearts and minds of those riding the fence thus causing the insurgents to lose ground, a foothold, and hope. However, when the American people are bitching and whining about the war instead showing solidarity and standing together, it gives the insurgents hope that they can hold on until their is a shift of power in hopes the incoming CinC, congress, etc wont be up to the task...

Its hard for you guys who arent truly "in the know" to know.

Crip

[eurekaa]

Hearts and minds. Hearts and minds...



Quite incorrect, it is the price that they pay. We haven't suffered **** compared to them.

How you dare to came up with this stupid comment that I ever heard so far in this forum , do you think about what you write , or you do really believe in that ..

Do you know what it means when we say more then 700,000 Iraqis have died so far not to mention the Iraqi refugees around the world and those who lost their homes families etc ...

There is nations on this planet their population number is less then 500 000 .

And to those who have problem with the number given above , I tell them that: we all agree that the numbers at least must be around couples hundreds of thousands . The exact number does not make any different either 200000 died or more then million , we are talking here about war of extermination for an existing nation , and some people who are living somewhere in the world are saying its OK , we are not suffering yet !!

[Mordecai]

...we are talking here about war of extermination for an existing nation...


WTF are you talking about? Are you suggesting the US is attempting to exterminate the Iraqi's?

Surely I am reading that wrong.

Crip

[eurekaa]

WTF are you talking about? Are you suggesting the US is attempting to exterminate the Iraqi's?

Surely I am reading that wrong.

Crip

So this is all what you understand from my post , what you care about !!

Sure that the U.S occupation for Iraq was a very big mistake , I'm saying if more then 655 thousands died in this war so its war of extermination for sure .

Most likely its not on purpose and this was not the U.S aim because simply when they did start the war they did not have the FUTURE BOOK where to read how its going to be ..

They thought that its just simple as 1, 2 , 3 , we take Saddam down with helping by our allies in ME , and get into Iraq and with couple of weeks every thing goes fine and the world feel happy ..

It was JUST ONE WORD that we did not need it ..

The word when they approve to interfere their nose in Iraq's policy , It was word from irresponsible stupid politician who accept to start this war , and have no other solutions but the wars .. thinking that the scenario will go as in Hollywood action movies ..

( and here i dare tell my message to tax payer , American people , to see where their money goes when they start voting for the politician who represent them , please stay away from WAR LOVERS POLITICIANS ) .

After all this destruction I mentioned in my post about Iraq all you care about if I'm suggesting the US is attempting to exterminate the Iraqi's !

Well , I did not said that it was on purpose or your politician's aim from beginning , but this is does not change the FACT that we are living ..

Yes , Its a war of extermination ..

If you do not call 655,000 at least human lost ( extermination ) . so It means I do not know what the word ( extermination ) means ..

And since you are native English speaker maybe you suggest a different word that describe this disaster better then mine , we are not in a debate of words ..

That all world not only U.S are involving in ,and only Iraqi people who are paying for its price ..

Yes , you are not reading it wrong. but certainly you understand it wrong ..

We are not here to talk about the U.S intentions and what is the U.S and their allies attempting and wanting for Iraqi People/Nation , but we are talking about the miserable situation and the FACTS we are living and I hope the history and Iraqi people will forgive us this crime .

We most look forward for forgiveness for all this destruction and ruination in Iraq ..

[Mordecai]

...After all this destruction I mentioned in my post about Iraq all you care about if I'm suggesting the US is attempting to exterminate the Iraqi's !...

I care about the truth and you stating numbers that are so far off the charts it isnt even laughable. That coupled with your use of the word exterminate caused me some concern as that is far from the truth.

Exterminate=Extermination is the act of killing or murdering with the intention of eradicating demographics within a population[/URL].

Next time I suggest you choose your words more carefully if you dont want to be called on them.

As for the body count, the link below states that as of 30 March 2008 the count is between 84,328-92,004 Iraqi civilians have been killed. This number(s) is according to the number thats been reported as being killed.

[URL]http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population)

I do not believe the invasion was a mistake nor do I believe we should turn tail and run. I will spare the bandwidth and point you to my post above if you are interested in reading my thoughts on people's opinions when they are based on 1/2 truths reported by the media.

Crip

[Calanen]

We most look forward for forgiveness for all this destruction and ruination in Iraq

And who is destroying and ruining it? It's not America. America is trying to rebuild it. The people who are destroying it and ruining it in the name of global jihad are the terrorists.

Do you think if America leaves Iraq, that the terrorists will kill more or less people? Do you think that they will be nice once America goes?

It is astonishing to me that the Arab mindset blames America for terrorists killing Iraqis. How about blaming the terrorists? How about confronting, squarely, the people who think they are mujahadeen, and saying, this is wrong. The Koran says its wrong. You are killing innocent people, and other muslims. But there is barely a peep from anyone in the Arab world - except - blame America.

[eurekaa]

Exterminate=Extermination is the act of killing or murdering with the intention of eradicating demographics within a population.

As for the body count, the link below states that as of 30 March 2008 the count is between 84,328-92,004 Iraqi civilians have been killed. This number(s) is according to the number thats been reported as being killed.




Next time I suggest you choose your words more carefully if you dont want to be called on them.


I Agree ..

Maybe the word Extermination was wrongly used in my post with the definition you mentioned , as I said i was talking about the Facts we live not Intentions ..

But also any other alternative word will not come from THE GOOD DICTIONARY WORDS . It always will give the meaning of distractions and ruination .

thanks for advice



As for the body count, the link below states that as of 30 March 2008 the count is between 84,328-92,004 Iraqi civilians have been killed. This number(s) is according to the number thats been reported as being killed.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/


Ironical thing is that when I wounder if these was the count we know in names / person from the news by individual effort of online website , why its far if the number is away of 655.000 for those who we did not know / hear about them . they still every day talk about collective graves of the war results for those who we know nothing about their stories ..

Also the Number 655.000 which is mentioned 2 years ago already comes from BBC News which is well know and trusted , and actually its based on survey by a US university , so its a U.S survey which must be at least neutral survey , My people may think this survey is biased against them and the numbers should be even more ..

any way .. the same question .. 100.000 or million these numbers are terrified ..

The numbers is always just figures but only people who died and lost their relatives feels its bitterness ..

This is the human nature , its very hard and difficult that you accept that one of the people you know / love to die in the war , but liklley you'll prefer if he stays alive and 50000 dies instead of him . isn't that true ( somehow ) !




I do not believe the invasion was a mistake nor do I believe we should turn tail and run. I will spare the bandwidth and point you to my post above if you are interested in reading my thoughts on people's opinions when they are based on 1/2 truths reported by the media.


Sir ,
When you say invasion , you must know its not a good word to say when you defend your believes ..

Invasion is invasion , there is no way to show any thing good in this word .

And this times when the powerful nations try to occupy other nations had
passed away , what ever their principles or aims or how good their intentions ..

And if insist on there is somthing good with the invasions then do not balme other nations if they beleive and hope the same about your country and think that the have the right to invade your country ( U.S in this case ) for the same reasons you mentioned , and trust me there will be always a good reason for them ..

either religious, racism reasons or good principles reasons or what ever they call it ..

invasion is always wrong ,
And these days are gone ..

Today's human is educated and labor enough not to accept other people or nation's custody / sovereignty ..

Im Arabian and belong to middle eastern country where my people say that we live under slavery fby a redactor ruler as they said looking for some freedom ,

But in the same time all of us prefer this slavery on having so-called freedom comes from other nation's invasion , not the USA or any other country ..

No sir , we prefer the slavery on the freedom in this case , because we can not live with the shame of being occupied under other nation custody ..

thanks for your freedom , we are not interested you can go away with it if you going to invade my country ..

Iraqi People know this today ,
we also know this
all countries around the world who respect their culture and history and for sure their entity also know this

Invasion is not the way and its always wrong ..

Thanks for reading my long post with my poor English typing with my appreciate for your understanding

[Bia]

Bottom line is yes.... horrible accidents happen... brutal barbarisims occur... and even false claims of either.

War isnt pleasent obviously:P

[usa320]

Pretty typical.

Everytime a drug dealer gets slotted here in the city their mother goes on the news the next day crying about how "her baby was a good boy he never did nuthin wrong" even though he tried to open up on cops during a search warrant... Its the same thing. The media writing articles like this is really low quality journalism... Im sure if they took the time to ask the local US forces about the incident, they would have gotten a very different explanation. People usually dont get shot for no reason.

and where can i get a copy of FUTURE BOOK?

[IraGlacialis]

People usually dont get shot for no reason.
But it does happen, as rare as it may be. And there will always be a few unscruplous people in the ranks of soldiers (as well as any other profession; it's unavoidable).

Let's wait and see how this unfolds.
It may be just hyped-up accusations (which it many times is), or it may actually be something that needs to be rectified.

[Mordecai]

eurekaa:

I see now I am going to get nowhere with this but in the interest of discussion...

Saddam Hussein had 12 years to do the right thing, by following the resolutions passed by the UN security council, after his army was pushed out of Kuwait. He was given multiple opportunities to comply with said resolutions and instead he thumbed his nose at the world and in the face of war was defiant. He got what he was asking for. In addition, it is estimated that 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War due to Saddam's non-compliance.

As for the people he ruled, I am sure the estimated 300,000 kurds, Shias, and dissidents Saddam killed over the years may have had a different opinion about whether they would rather had Saddam or suffer thru the invasion of their country to replace their dictator along with rebuilding their country with better water, sewage, power, schools, etc than they had during Saddam's reign.

All Arabic people do not share your opinion about freedom that I am sure of.

Crip

[Calanen]

Also the Number 655.000 which is mentioned 2 years ago already comes from BBC News which is well know and trusted , and actually its based on survey by a US university , so its a U.S survey which must be at least neutral survey , My people may think this survey is biased against them and the numbers should be even more

Whatever the number is, the majority of the killing is being done by Arabs against Arabs, Iraqis against Iragis, muslims against muslims. Iraq has the opportunity to be a great nation - if all the bs of blowing each other up like a pack of barbarians would stop.

America will leave, and people will keep killing each other. And it will still be America's fault, even though America tried to spend billions to rebuild the place. Do you see anyone antying up cash to rebuild? Is Syria saying they will rebuild the electricity grid or the hospitals?

Iraq could be the economic powerhouse of the Middle East - if they stopped killing each other. Instead, blowing people up, blowing their own infrastructure up, just ruins the economy and guarantees unemployment and misery. And its not America that suffers because of that. After America is gone, the Iraqis have to deal with blown oil pipelines, and a smashed electricity grid.

[afreu]

Whatever the number is, the majority of the killing is being done by Arabs against Arabs, Iraqis against Iragis, muslims against muslims. Iraq has the opportunity to be a great nation - if all the bs of blowing each other up like a pack of barbarians would stop.

America will leave, and people will keep killing each other. And it will still be America's fault, even though America tried to spend billions to rebuild the place. Do you see anyone antying up cash to rebuild? Is Syria saying they will rebuild the electricity grid or the hospitals?

Iraq could be the economic powerhouse of the Middle East - if they stopped killing each other. Instead, blowing people up, blowing their own infrastructure up, just ruins the economy and guarantees unemployment and misery. And its not America that suffers because of that. After America is gone, the Iraqis have to deal with blown oil pipelines, and a smashed electricity grid.

All the points you're making in the above statement are null and void considering that the US government took the deliberate decision to invade Iraq with the self-imposed mission to bring democracy and prosperity to the Iraqi people. They made a commitment to the Iraqi people, that they could provide them with a better system of governance than the regime of Saddam Hussein. The chaos that ensued in the years after the initial invasion can be completely blamed on the blatant incompetence and outrageous ignorance of the coalition since they failed to adequately replace the source of order and security they removed.

It's like only blaming the citizens of a neigbourhood for criminality and poverty, when it's the state, the police, the educational system and other institutions which fail to provide such things. Every society will sink in chaos without a reasonable institutional order!

[Calanen]

All the points you're making in the above statement are null and void considering that the US government took the deliberate decision to invade Iraq with the self-imposed mission to bring democracy and prosperity to the Iraqi people.


So once Iraq is invaded by America, the people of Iraq have no responsibility to do anything themselves to rebuild the country? Blowing things up, blowing each other up, their own behaviour and conduct which does these things - that is Americas fault.

The Iraqis and the rest of the Middle East can keep blaming America for everything. But the problems will continue, because blaming America gives them an excuse from ever having to admit that they are responsible for dealing with their own causes of these problems.

[TALOS]

All the points you're making in the above statement are null and void considering that the US government took the deliberate decision to invade Iraq with the self-imposed mission to bring democracy and prosperity to the Iraqi people. They made a commitment to the Iraqi people, that they could provide them with a better system of governance than the regime of Saddam Hussein. The chaos that ensued in the years after the initial invasion can be completely blamed on the blatant incompetence and outrageous ignorance of the coalition since they failed to adequately replace the source of order and security they removed.

It's like only blaming the citizens of a neigbourhood for criminality and poverty, when it's the state, the police, the educational system and other institutions which fail to provide such things. Every society will sink in chaos without a reasonable institutional order!

Its about responsibility, you see, Americans believe people should be responsible for themselves, not babies sucking on the teet of the govt. So, when you say citizens shouldnt be responsible for criminality but rather the police and other institutions should it just rings wrong (US members can correct me if they feel I have misread the situation)

The US invaded Iraq after (as has been mentioned) 12 yrs of Saddam IGNORING the conditions of the truce, the war was never ever over, there was a conditional surrender, and the conditions were not met. When the coalition builds a school, or a road, or a water facility and the insurgents/terrorist/criminals/disgruntled whoever blow it up it is not the fault of the US, they are trying, and the enemy does not want success for the Iraqi people, they want chaos.
just my 2 cents