SADF vs SANDF

[Britboy]

Evening all,

Interested if there are any South African members here who can advise on the performance of the new National Defence Force compared to how the older SADF was?

I had always heard the SADF was revered as a bloody effective force, so set out upon some googling, which raised this:
http://defence-data.com/features/fpage40.htm
, which seems to suggest that whilst the SANDF has its challenges, the older SADF wasnt perfect either.

I'd be glad to hear off anyone who can shed light on this topic.

Regards
BB

[Hellfish]

You ask good questions.

[Britboy]

I really should clarify that I don't mean 'SADF vs SANDF, who would win', like some sort of weird messed-up willy-waving thread.

Simply looking for a comparison of SA's defence capability between the old force and the new one, seeing as the SADF had quite a reputation but the new SANDF you don't seem to hear about in quite the same way.

Regards
BB

[Britboy]

Is there really no one on MP.net who can comment?

Isn't the SANDF one of the few militaries of the world who test their troops for HIV/AIDS? I would've thought this would have gone some way towards preserving fighting efficiency relative to other regional forces?

Regards
BB

[Ironsight06]

Go to the SADF thread and ask there.

[Albatross]

Evening all,

Interested if there are any South African members here who can advise on the performance of the new National Defence Force compared to how the older SADF was?

I had always heard the SADF was revered as a bloody effective force, so set out upon some googling, which raised this:
http://defence-data.com/features/fpage40.htm
, which seems to suggest that whilst the SANDF has its challenges, the older SADF wasnt perfect either.

I'd be glad to hear off anyone who can shed light on this topic.

Regards
BB

PM Macs, he is an expert on this stuff.

[James]

Isn't the SANDF one of the few militaries of the world who test their troops for HIV/AIDS?

When I was in the USMC in the 1990s we were tested annually for HIV. I believe the entire U.S. Military does.

[wilhelm]

Also, what exactly was wrong with the education received by Apla and MK officers in Russia, East Germany, Cuba and India? The military education systems there were (are) no worse than that of the SADF/SANDF and were/are, sadly, objectively better in many aspects.Results on the battlefield speak for themselves. The author indulges in a lot of opinionated drivel such as:


The former South African Defence Force (SADF)leaders spent far more time discussing the sport field than the battlefield.I am lost for words....... was he a close confident with all the ex-leaders of the SADF?
As an ex SADF officer, I resent the implication that we were unread as well. I do not know this individual, and have never met him, so he has no right to comment on my literacy levels.


We currently have SANDF members raping women on peacekeeping duties. The SANDF have various racially based shootings in army bases over the last few years. The SANDF had trouble subduing Lesotha a few years back. A large proportion of the SANDF have AIDS. The SANDF is used as a welfare organisation. Equipment is not being maintained, with readiness at an all time low.

Sure, there were faults with the SADF, but the author of this bile seeks to try and compare the SANDF with the SADF? What a joke.... There are probably loads of professional soldiers within the SANDF currently. But will they be promoted according to ability or political affiliation? The SAAF is currently losing pilots and technicians at an unprecedented rate.

Who exactly is this individual anyhow? A defence journalist on teh internetz. I note with interest this article is 8 years old. Wonder what his thoughts are now in 2008...p-)

[GETSOME]

The former South African Defence Force (SADF)leaders spent far more time discussing the sport field than the battlefield.
Aaarh ,the all important Wednesday sports day, was very very important in the SADF,that was when i could get some sleep ,while waiting to play table tennis.:)

[the_hog]

A shadow of its former self. Leave it there.

[Lokos]

Results on the battlefield speak for themselves.

What they say, though, remains open for debate.

Lokos

[Nite]

When I was in the USMC in the 1990s we were tested annually for HIV. I believe the entire U.S. Military does.
so does german army

[Deon Kirsten]

Joined the SANDF 1996 till 2007 things have changed the SADF was in the top 10 in the world the SANDF has follen of the scale to much envesis an changing the old gard and losing alot . SADF build up for defence and ofence the SANDF - Peace keeping. more money on uniform changes and less on training eqwepment . I lift the SANDF Resurve Force dew to training ICV troopers on Chairs rather than a ratel no ammo no resorces lots of empty promises but still ecspected to field men .

[jackehammond]

Folks,

1> Right now South Africa does not have a fighter-bomber force. It retired all its Cheetas and it will be a couple of years before the Grippens are available. Also its pool of highly trained combat pilots from pre-majority rule have pretty well left.

2> The South African Army has a VERY serious problem with AIDS. Units with members with AIDS in it are not allowed on UN missions. South Africa hopes to solve this problem by switching those with AIDS to a sort of uniformed service corps that repairs equipment, etc. But have no combat role.

3> More I believe to make sure the South African Army does not engage in a military operation against the government, they have separated all the combined military formations into separate battalions -- infantry, artillery, armor, engineering.

4> While totally reprehensible, any who believe that the post-majority South African military was not a highly professional and effective military force, well......

5> If the article written in 2000 is correct the present South African Army is on par with Russian Army in 1917. The #1 rule of any effective military organization is discipline and obedience to lawful orders. With a matured military force this is done "willingly" by the lower ranks. With others it is by other means. Even the US Army (then the Continental Army) in the early days of the American Revolution had the problem shown by this article. UNTIL General Washington addressed it at Morristown. Then the Continental Army became a truly professional army and not a "Bunch of Civilians in Uniform" as the famous General Slim related he was told as a cadet.

Finally, no matter the reason, when ever it becomes common for even one officer to kill his immediate commander and draconian measures are not taken in response (ie South Africa outlawed the death penalty for any reason) that military force -- ie no matter the execuses letters and answers in outrage at this charge -- is nothing but "A bunch of civilians in uniform." And in the future if the government of South Africa wishes a real army it will have to take harsher measures than the ones that would restore the situation today.


Jack E. Hammond


BTW> The British Royal Navy did not become the force that ruled the waves and defeated the Spanish Armada because it had better ships, weapons or crews. But unlike the other navies of the 16th and 17th century its ships captains were GAWD when they were in command of that ships.



,

[7SAI Bn]

spineless. Our heritage started with being born to be soldiers (our fights with the British) to a nation that complaints, demands, wants everything and being a criminal is alike to a king.

Spent in SANDF and operational duty in the then South West Africa now Nambia.Funny thing is that we and the old Swapo cadres talk and have reunions which is commenable, unfortuneatly we have old Umkhonto We Sizwe soldiers who is a spent force hence we have soldiers who is overweight steal equipment (will supply some data on stolen weapons later) shot their officers shoot their own families. So the prognoses for a future quality army is really zero

:oops:

[Deon Kirsten]

I Volunteered to join the SANDF in 1995 as I felt it my duty. The Ratel is the best IVC in the World. It is just sad that things have fallen apart and the loss of good men from all sections closing of unit like 61 Meg and moral dropping. Don’t get me wrong there are still members that do excellent work but they get pulled down by the one’s for whom it is just a job and not a duty.

[sa_bushwar]

For some SA Bushwar stuff, see my webpage at: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar

[Deon Kirsten]

Cool Site at SA Bushwar. any one out there from the former 61 Meg Bn Fm

[Deon Kirsten]

Any More info in the Patria amv Replacement for the Ratel see my Private messige ???

[Schad]

Cool Site at SA Bushwar. any one out there from the former 61 Meg Bn Fm

Yep - 1980 - 1981 intake, 1 SAI at Tempe then Bravo Coy 61Mech, Protea & Daisy - 77437150BG

[Ratel]

Evening all,

Interested if there are any South African members here who can advise on the performance of the new National Defence Force compared to how the older SADF was?

BB

The SADF was disciplined

Visit www.sa-soldier.com for more!

[Ratel]

Any More info in the Patria amv Replacement for the Ratel see my Private messige ???

Deon, I can't imagine that SA, with the superb weapons industry that it has, will import a replacement for the Ratel but you never know. Has there been talk about this?

[playtym]

Has there been talk about this?

It may have been mentioned once (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105578&highlight=hoefyster) or twice (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112343&highlight=hoefyster)

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8435/img8148090.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2667/img8148093.jpg

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1070/img8148091.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8729/img8148094.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1295/img8148092.jpg

[Dwelm]

when is this to happen ?

[21echo]

I can say this......I served in the Rhodesian Army with the RLI. Did my para course in South Africa 1977 (we were operating with vastly limited means) at 1 para, Bloemfontein. I worked with the Para bat's in S A and in Mozambique. They were excellent soldiers then, no question about it.

The SANDF is in my opinion a dissorganised low key Defence Force. They went on strike at one of the Pretoria bases once.!!!!!!!! Not a group to go 'Tiger hunting' with I'm affraid, best suited to 'Otter stalking' is my personal oppinion.
Evening all,

Interested if there are any South African members here who can advise on the performance of the new National Defence Force compared to how the older SADF was?

I had always heard the SADF was revered as a bloody effective force, so set out upon some googling, which raised this:
http://defence-data.com/features/fpage40.htm
, which seems to suggest that whilst the SANDF has its challenges, the older SADF wasnt perfect either.

I'd be glad to hear off anyone who can shed light on this topic.

Regards
BB

[paluka]

Sorry Britboy, but I think it will to be tough going trying to sell the idea if a SADF even remotely comparable with the current state of chaos called the SANDF.

One thing said in a previous post was that the current SANDF is merely a welfare organization. That is absolutely true. All the junk that once filled the ranks of MK and other terrorists organizations were put in the SANDF to be looked after, after all, they have earned it, haven't they? Much the same as Robert Mcbride,which should have been hanged for war crimes, becomes the CIC of the Metro police.

I grew up in the military establishment's epicentre in dequar road Pretoria. Unbeknown to me I was literally 2 blocks away from the SADF's most revered men including Col. Jan Breytenbach on a daily basis. I still remember the hustle and bustle of military personnel up and down the road and the parks and the cleanliness of the environment. If ever you find yourself in Pretoria again, please drive down that road and see what has become of the place. It is horrifying.

In third street is a soccer field complete with flood lights and everything. It used to be extremely well looked after by a black man called "Smitty". We used to give him all sorts of trouble as kids, laying on the soccer nets on top of the posts etc. He used to chase us around with a sambok but never had the intention of hurting us. Just scaring us. That park looks like a piece of bushveld today with weeds growing as high as the broken fence. It is a shame. The army houses, in which I grew up, looks like old run down brick intallations with no gardens. It realy fills my heart with sadness going back there and seeing how people can destroy a place like that. It is as the saying goes, "easy come, easy go"!

[hank2222]

when i was in the army back in the 70s era the us army thought i would be good idea to take a look at the bush war in the sa area..
and since i was counter intelligence they thought it would be a good idea to see what the other side was up to down there..
so i got on a plane to south africa and when i got off i went though passport control and by the time i was though the door leading into the main airport area
there version of the military intelligence had come beside and we did the grady knight and the pips set up with them takeing me off the main area into a small room to be ask a few question about my so called sightseeing trip to south africa..
back in the day they where fast and quick about picking up on people when they came into the country..
but my haircut and way i walk give it away that i was military the guy would become my good freind in the comeing years..he told that the way i walked and moved gave it away and way when i line i would try to keep a couple of feet from the front and rear person in the line ...
he now lives in the us and i see him here and there and we talk about the sad state of life now for the south aficans
that when they ask me would i like to go look at the area where they where working..
i did go up to the area and saw some of the other side trucks and other items that we where looking at..
the old sadf was a great unit in my own words they where top rate people when came down to nut cracking time ..