PDA

View Full Version : Soldiers in Helmand unearth British rifles lost in 1880 massacre



Lov3ll
06-08-2008, 08:48 AM
Soldiers in Helmand unearth British rifles lost in 1880 massacre


Weapons taken after a Victorian defeat in Afghanistan have been recovered – and repatriated as antiques


British soldiers serving in Afghanistan have recovered weapons looted from the bodies of their Victorian forebears.
Rare Martini-Henry rifles lost in the bloody defeat at Maiwand in July 1880 have been retrieved 128 years later by troops fighting the Taliban and al-Qa'ida in Helmand province.
Two of the rifles, dated 1874 and 1878, are currently on sale in a Sussex antique shop for £1,100 apiece.
Mark Hawkins, co-owner of The Lanes Armoury, Brighton, said: "When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.
"Now British officers are finding these guns, recognise them for what they are, and are getting permission to bring them back. We've had a few through. I think a soldier might pick up a couple, keep one as a souvenir of his time in Afghanistan, and bring the other to us."

Peter Smithurst, senior curator of historic firearms at the Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds, said: "The Martini-Henry was the first purpose-made breech-loading rifle introduced into British service. It is an iconic rifle."
The Martini is particularly popular with collectors, he said, because of both its place in the development of firearms technology and for the role it played in the famous battles of Britain's colonial campaigns.
Mr Smithurst said Afghanistan was increasingly a source of antique firearms. "I have been getting quite a few email inquiries from British servicemen and the American forces as well."
Mr Hawkins said: "The Martini-Henry is a very, very collectable gun – almost entirely down to Michael Caine and the film Zulu. Everyone who has seen that film has seen the Martini-Henry and knows it is the rifle used by the British in that era."

Unlike the successful defence of Rorke's Drift in 1879, as featured in Zulu, the battle of Maiwand a year later was one of the worst British defeats of Queen Victoria's 63-year reign. A 2,500-strong Anglo/Indian force was routed by an Afghan army of about 12,000 men.
Among the 1,000 British and Indian dead were 286 men of the Martini-armed 66th (Berkshire) Regiment, who made a last stand in a walled garden in the village of Khig. When only two officers and nine men of the 66th remained alive, they charged the hordes of tribesmen surrounding them.

An Afghan witness described the end: "These men charged from the shelter of a garden and died with their faces to the enemy. So fierce was their charge, and so brave their actions, no Afghan dared approach to cut them down. Standing in the open, back to back, firing steadily, every shot counting, surrounded by thousands, these British soldiers died. It was not until the last man was shot down that the Afghans dared to advance. The behaviour of those last 11 was the wonder of all who saw it."

The weapons they wielded so gallantly could finally be returning home.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/soldiers-in-helmand-unearth-british-rifles-lost-in-1880-massacre-842497.html

CreepingDeath
06-08-2008, 09:33 AM
Amazing Discoveries interests me. Thanks for sharing the news!

Paddy51
06-08-2008, 11:06 AM
Amazing story. Thanks for sharing. :)

PrinzEugen
06-08-2008, 02:16 PM
Yes, very interesting post, thanks. Seen any pictures somewhere?

deagle
06-08-2008, 03:05 PM
interesting story, and glad those in the past can be a part of history and be recognised for bravery and their service.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-08-2008, 03:08 PM
[SIZE="3"][B]Two of the rifles, dated 1874 and 1878, are currently on sale in a Sussex antique shop for £1,100 apiece.
Mark Hawkins, co-owner of The Lanes Armoury, Brighton, said: "When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.The Lanes Armoury is an interesting wee shop and well worth a visit a bit pricey though, I went last Sunday but it was closed.

Luno
06-08-2008, 03:08 PM
they did also found some Snider rifles :)

a_very_ex_STAB
06-09-2008, 01:09 PM
Mark Hawkins, co-owner of The Lanes Armoury, Brighton, said: "When we first fought the Afghans, we kept sending out armies who lost. The Afghans killed our chaps and took their weapons.

This seems to be a fairly common misconception about the period.

The retreat from Kabul in the first Afghan war was a disaster but due mostly to the commanders incompetence not Afghan prowess (most of the force were Indian not British and a huge number of camp followers not soldiers were included in the death toll). What people seem to forget is that Britain went back and laid waste to Afghanistan afterwards in revenge - and that Maiwand was a relatively small scale and isolated reverse.

oldsoak
06-09-2008, 01:32 PM
stop letting facts get in the way.

BugHunt
06-10-2008, 09:16 AM
This seems to be a fairly common misconception about the period.

The retreat from Kabul in the first Afghan war was a disaster but due mostly to the commanders incompetence not Afghan prowess (most of the force were Indian not British and a huge number of camp followers not soldiers were included in the death toll). What people seem to forget is that Britain went back and laid waste to Afghanistan afterwards in revenge - and that Maiwand was a relatively small scale and isolated reverse.


Any good online resources to the period you'd recommend?

Yeah im lazy ;)


Im sure theres ways but how would they know these rifles are the real deal as opposed to Afghan copies made later?

IDF_TANKER
06-10-2008, 09:32 AM
This seems to be a fairly common misconception about the period.

The retreat from Kabul in the first Afghan war was a disaster but due mostly to the commanders incompetence not Afghan prowess (most of the force were Indian not British and a huge number of camp followers not soldiers were included in the death toll). What people seem to forget is that Britain went back and laid waste to Afghanistan afterwards in revenge - and that Maiwand was a relatively small scale and isolated reverse.

According to Peter Hopkirk (The Great Game, an excellent book BTW) this was mainly the fault of George Burrows who commanded the force.

big_les
06-10-2008, 12:17 PM
Any good online resources to the period you'd recommend?

Yeah im lazy ;)


Im sure theres ways but how would they know these rifles are the real deal as opposed to Afghan copies made later?

As you say - "there's ways". Mostly experience and comparison to known originals. Markings on the weapon and the quality of workmanship are good indicators. Most copies are not made by expert forgers. You could even analyze the metallurgy and wood used if there was any doubt.

Eknytz
06-10-2008, 12:50 PM
Hmm, said that soldiers take one sometimes as a souvenir?

I thought taking firearms as war souvenirs was illegal.

a_very_ex_STAB
06-10-2008, 01:34 PM
According to Peter Hopkirk (The Great Game, an excellent book BTW) this was mainly the fault of George Burrows who commanded the force.

Yes and Elphinstone was the Idiot-in-Chief during the totally unnecessary retreat from Kabul disaster in the First Afghan War.

He could have stayed the winter in his fortifications in Kabul and waited for help without any major problems but decided to take his whole force (incl many camp followers) to the Khyber Pass instead.

IDF_TANKER
06-10-2008, 03:23 PM
Yes and Elphinstone was the Idiot-in-Chief during the totally unnecessary retreat from Kabul disaster in the First Afghan War.

He could have stayed the winter in his fortifications in Kabul and waited for help without any major problems but decided to take his whole force (incl many camp followers) to the Khyber Pass instead.

My mistake, I just went through the chapter - it was of course Elphinstone:


... However, the elderly Elphinstone, dragged down by gout and looking forward to a quiet retirement, had long before sunk into a torpor of indecision and despair, if not downright funk...


Says it all...

Rynnäkkökivääri
06-10-2008, 05:41 PM
The UK lets their men bring back these guns?


Then why can't the US do the same? The gun laws in the US are much less stricter than the ones of the UK.

Sabre
06-10-2008, 06:54 PM
^They don't 'let' you take them back. There are strict rules about bringing back weapons surrounding certificates of deactivation etc. AFAIK these weapons are of an obsolete calibre which puts them in a class of weapons that need no alteration to be 'deactivated'.

You can't just bring them back, of course. The main obstacle is the bloody crabs (RAF) who more often than not thieve any shiny kit coming back on the planes.


they did also found some Snider rifles :)

Yep, and they make great centre-pieces! :)

T3ngu
06-10-2008, 06:58 PM
Nice find. Thanks for posting.

a_very_ex_STAB
06-11-2008, 09:48 AM
My mistake, I just went through the chapter - it was of course Elphinstone:


Says it all...

You were right about Burrows at Maiwand

IDF_TANKER
06-11-2008, 10:06 AM
You were right about Burrows at Maiwand

I'm a moron. I confused the events of the First Afghan War and the Second one - I placed the Maiwand battle prior to the Elphinstone retreat at the end of the First War.

Ubar
06-12-2008, 08:10 AM
I confused the events of the Second Afghan War and the Second one

oh right! ;)

LRPV
06-12-2008, 09:58 AM
I would imagine some of the better pieces would get a home on mess walls. It would make a better conversational topic than mess fees...

oregongrunt
06-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Very interesting story. I remember that in Southern Iraq in 2003 many of the homes had rusted 1914 stamped Enfield rifles as family heirlooms. There was also an old airfield there that still had British buildings and a little british movie theater with the rusted out movie projecter still in it.

Currahee 1SG
06-12-2008, 11:04 PM
Hmm, said that soldiers take one sometimes as a souvenir?

I thought taking firearms as war souvenirs was illegal.

Not at all. Just like anything government run there is paperwork that needs to be done to bring anything back. It is up to the approving commander to decide whether that item can be taken back. Not saying it’s the same for all military forces that includes the US services.

uTu
06-12-2008, 11:35 PM
wow a great story thanks.
the last stand story is great