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David Lehmann
06-01-2004, 07:46 PM
In Poland, 1939, and particularly in France, 1940, Blitzkrieg tactics were deployed. In Poland the battle turned into something that greatly resembled the "Kesselschlacht-theory" from World War I, if more motorized. On the other hand, the Blitzkrieg tactic proper was revealed later to the Allies.

Battle of France 1940 (45 days)

The German means and tactics were also not exactly the same in September 1939 and in May 1940. The Polish army suffered 200,000 losses in 35 days (5714 per day) and the French army 330,000+ losses in 45 days (7333+ per day), both have fought bravely against an enemy and its tactics that they weren't really prepared to fight at and Poland was attacked during the same time by the Soviets. The idea that France did not fight is just false, it was defeated in shame because quickly for the country as it was seen in 1939, yes, but the soldiers were courageous and died too for their homeland.
In 1940, in 45 days, the French army lost 92,000 – 120,000 KIA on the battlefield. In the same time the Germans lost 45,218 KIA. Despite lacks of high command the French soldiers did resist to the enemy each time they were well commanded on the front

The Germans engaged 68 divisions against Poland (52 divisions) and they later engaged 135 divisions against France (104 divisions). The ratio of the forces is more or less the same : 1.3.
The German army was also stronger against France :
- Leichten Divisionen had been transformed into Panzer Divisionen*
- Panzer Divisionen created
- many more tanks were armed with good guns superior to 20mm and better armored (16% - 452 tanks - in Poland and 36% - 914 tanks - in France)
- improved mechanization and motorization of the army
- several tanks were improved (the PzIVs for example : more Ausf. A/B in Poland and more Ausf.C/D in France, better armored)
Just to say that if the attacked country is stronger, the attacking country is also very stronger than before.

In the light of these factors, France in 1940 must be seen as the best example of Blitzkrieg carried out, it couldn't work anymore in Russia which was too big. In Poland it was much more a classical Kesselschlacht and the too weak Leichten-Divisionen where after that transformed in Panzer-Divisionen. A large faked attack was undertaken in Belgium and Holland where paratroopers and airborne troops were used to secure important points. France sent its best forces in this area. Later, the main forces attacked in an unexpected place where only second-rate divisions resisted them. Here, Panzers pushed on almost without concern for their flanks, leaving the cleaning up to the infantry. Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe attacked as support for the Panzers and the infantry.

The French fought very well as companies and battalions but poorly as divisions and horribly as armies ... doctrine (conception and use of tanks), communication issues etc. The French Army didn't lose because of a lack of material (though a high lack of radios, bombers, AA weapons and AA ammunitions) and its armament was as good as the German one, the reasons are both the doctrine at the military level and several political decisions.

* Created in 1936, these Leichten-Divisionen were based on the model of the French DLM. In Germany like in France, the Cavalry wanted its own tanks because it was frightened to loose influence. After Poland the 1., 2., 3. and 4. Leichten-Divisionen became the 6., 7., 3. and 4. Panzer-Divisionen and the 5. PzD has been created.

Engaged by Germany :
135 divisions (10 Pad and several motorized divisions)
~4500 planes
~7500 artillery pieces
~3800 tanks and armored cars

German losses (whole western campaign until the end of the battle of France) :
- 156,492 losses (27,074 KIA, 111,034 WIA, 18,384 MIA) (+ 6000 Italian losses in the French Alps) -- compared to 40,390 losses in Poland. This first figure established on June 25, 1940 has been corrected later to 45,218 German KIA.
- 1236 planes + 323 damaged (about 650 victories for the French air force fighters alone, not counting here the losses due to AA fire etc. and many gliders and Ju-52 destroyed in the Netherlands) -- compared to 135 planes in Poland (Marek Murawski)
- 839 tanks definitively destroyed (33% of the 2542 tanks engaged) and 157 armored cars destroyed ; most of them against French tanks or AT guns -- compared to 218 tanks (8.5% of the engaged tanks) in Poland (Jentz)

Engaged by France :
104 divisions (with 5 DLC, 3 DLM, 3 DCR : 11 armored /mechanized/motorized divisions but half of them are very weak) : none of these divisions were the real equivalent in power and combined arms that a Panzer Division. Quickly after the first losses and encirclements their were only 63 divisions (counting the one stuck on the Maginot line) to face the whole German army.
~2100 planes
~10000 artillery pieces
~3500 tanks and armored cars but only really about 2000 modern ones engaged

French losses :
- 330,000 losses (92,000-120,000 KIAs and 210,000-240,000 WIA/MIA)
- 1,450,000 prisoners
- 892 aircrafts
- no data for the AFVs ... mostly all (2000+) destroyed or captured except the ones in the colonies.

Allied losses according to Karl-Heinz Frieser (Oberst Bundeswehr, MFGA) in his book "Blitzkrieg Legende" and Gérard Saint-Martin "L'arme blindée française" :
Belgian losses in 19 days : 7500 KIA, 15850 WIA
Luxembourg : no fightings
Dutch losses in 6 days : 2890 KIA, 6889 WIA
British losses in 26 days : 3457 KIA, 13602 WIA, 3267 MIA
French losses in 45 days : 92,000-120,000 KIA (according to different sources),

The Swiss historian Eddy Bauer says also that the Germans lost much more men in the second part of the western campaign, in France the resistance was harder when time advanced.
156,492 German losses (KIA, MIA, WIA) in 45 days, that's 3477 losses per day but in fact the French resistance was all days harder : 2499 losses per day between the 10th May and the 3rd June but 4762 losses per day between the 5th and the 24th June. You can compare that to the 4506 losses/day during operation Barbarossa from June 22 to December 10, 1941.


The German army is not in all cases better than the French army and the idea of a total superiority (kind of racial superiority) of the men themselves is a myth still propagated some people. The German soldier is often better trained physically, is better equipped (lighter uniform etc.) and above all he has been better prepared psychologically for years while the French didn't wanted this war. The German soldier fought for Germany, for his Führer, he was well endoctrined. But the idea that the Germans were supermen and the French running cowards is totally wrong.
One point is also when talking about the German army in 1940, too many people still imagine an army only composed of powerful mechanized/motorized units with first class armaments. The French army had 400,000 motorized vehicles (more or less equivalent to the German army, the small US army at the same time for example had 12,000 vehicles). In fact if there are "two" French armies (active and reserve kind of units), there are also "two" German armies : the mechanized one (Panzerdivisionen and motorized units), strongly supported by the Luftwaffe, created and designed to be a strategical and "autonomous" weapon in 1940 ... and the majority of the German army : foot infantry, with horse drawn units, closer to the army of 1918 like the French basic infantry units. The German had also reserve units, not only first class units, concerning the tanks, the PzI and PzII couldn't hurt the majority of the French tanks and there were still MG08/15, not MG34s everywhere etc.

Everyone seems to believe the Germans had the better basic soldier training and tougher soldiers than others. In my opinion this is nonsense. The basic training for a soldier was more or less the same as in all other countries. What can you teach a recruit ? How he handles his weapon, how he follows orders, how he uses his equipment, train his fitness etc. Do you really think other countries didn't do the same or the Germans had a highly secret training method for their recruits to make them super soldiers ?
The myth that the Waffen-SS had a different basic training than the Heer comes also up frequently. The only differences which can be made out from veteran memories is that the treatment in the Waffen-SS was more inhumane and "hard" than in the Heer. And they tried harder to break the will of the recruits with more senseless punishments and drills.
Many veterans also say they never fired more than 10 life rounds during training. Some of them also say they never fired a single one. The real difference in quality and combat effectiveness were factors like combined weapons actions, NCOs and officers corps, experience, flexibility etc. Especially in 1939/1940 when most armies still were stuck in WW1 doctrines and obsolete tactics.

The Germans had always armor superiority because they concentrated it and French did that only in several battles. France, as well as Great Britain, used tank tactics very different from Germany's ones. Where Germany deployed their Panzers in concentration, France and Great Britain deployed their tanks spread out among the infantry or sometimes concentrated but only as a shock element working for the infantry, never as a decisive weapon by itself, they had nothing really comparable to the Panzer Divisionen, the closest was the French DLM which had been in fact copied to give rise to the Leichten Divisionen (transformed in Panzer Divisionen after Poland). The big allied armored units didn't show as good combined arms efficiency and were all weaker in tank numbers. This meant that it was easy for the German forces to take out the few tanks used at a time and the otherwise superior French tanks (armor and armament) were no real threat towards Germany's superior Blitzkrieg tactics. Except for some battles (Hannut/Gembloux, Abbeville ...) the French tanks were never concentrated and as a French general said, the tanks were used in 1000 groups of 3 instead of 3 groups of 1000.

The British did absolutely no better job in France than the French army. They were beaten the same way and led their battles more or less according to the same tactics. The first attack on Abbeville for example was led by the 1st AD (general Evans) and they lost 120 tanks out of 165, the attack failed in only 2 hours. The second attack led by general De Gaulle (4e DCR), according to his views of the use of tanks lasted 3 days and finally the third attack led by the French 2e DCR (Colonel Perré) supported by French infantry and the Scottish 51st HD failed in 6 hours. Hopefully there was the Channel otherwise Great-Britain would have been crushed as easily the same way.

Crude numbers give about the same number of tanks on each side, but remove all the obsolete FT17 tanks from WW1 (1600 tanks still in service) and count only what was really in the front line against the enemy and you will see that the modern French tanks really used at the front are only between 1800 and 2000 grossly. The FCM36, Hotchkiss H35, Renault R35 etc. were equipped with a short 37mm SA18 gun which was exactly the same than the 37mm infantry gun of WW1. Not all the tanks were B1Bis, D2, R40 with a 47mm SA35 gun (and a 75mm gun for the B1bis) or late Hotchkiss H-series with a 37mm SA38 gun.
The French tanks were all better armored than the better German armor, their armament was sometimes better (the 47mm gun is far better than the German 37mm) but they lacked communication and were slower. The German tanks were lighter and were spreading like water, they poured in every breakthrough and attacked the rear lines, disorganizing the whole defense. Thanks to their more numerous radios they were able to quickly change the direction of a movement/attack and they were continuously supported by attack and reconnaissance aircrafts.
On a strategic level the German tanks were superior but if you consider a small tactical engagement from tank to tank it is absolutely not the case. In several occasions the French tanks gave the Germans a bad licking but the mobility and tactics of the Germans almost systematically resulted in concentration of firepower and local superiority in the objective area. During the Hannut/Gembloux gap battle, the French lost 105 tanks and the Germans 165 tanks.

The French B1bis gave the Germans a bad licking resisting 37mm and even 75mm tank gunners with their superior armor. The Pak36 was therefore also called the "door-knocker" by the Germans. Although Guderian and Kleist would mostly dismiss these concerns, the up-and-coming officers in the German army would never forget the impression left of fearing enemy heavy armour and the need to counter them at the infantry level. Ask the German battalion that has been crushed in Huppy for example or the feeling of some German when the B1bis resisted sometimes to more than hundred 20mm, 37mm and 75mm shells.

Considering the speed of the French/German tanks, the French tanks had grossly a power of 7-10hp/ton and the German 15-20hp/ton. The figures of max speed (km/h) and autonomy (by road, in km) give that :

GERMAN tanks :
PzI : 40 170
PzII : 40 200
PzIII : 40 165
PzIV : 40 165
Pz38(t) : 42 250
Pz35(t) : 35 190

FRENCH tanks :
FT-17 : 7.5 35
AMC-34 : 40 200
AMC-35 : 42 160
R35 : 20 140
R40 : 20 130
H35 : 35 150
H38 and H39 : 36 120
FCM36 : 24 225
D1 : 18 90
D2 : 23 100
Somua S35 : 45 257
B1 : 28 200
B1bis : 28 180
AMR-33 : 54 200
AMR-35 : 60 200


The 650 Luftwaffe aircrafts shot down by the French air force (+ the ones destroyed by the French AA defenses - some claims say 300 but I have no precisely checked numbers) were later missing above London after the campaign in France, the Germans had to delay the action over Great Britain.
The French ace Marin-la-Meslé collected 21 victories (Mainly Me-109s) in 6 weeks with a Curtiss H-75 despite this plane was totally worse than the Me-109. The German ace Werner Mölder had been shot down over France and made prisoner. Except the too rare Dewoitine D520 all the French fighters were worse than the Me-109. The victory/losses rate of the French air force is positive because most of the German planes were destroyed by French fighters while most of the French planes were destroyed by the dense German Flak.

The French aviation was largely inferior to the German ones, especially the bombers fleet which was really small in comparison. Nevertheless the French Farman 222.2, 223.3 and 223.4 heavy bombers (about 50 only) were really long range bombers and carried 4200 kg bombs. First they dropped leaflets over Germany and Czechoslovakia but they were also the first allied planes to bomb Berlin (Siemens factory) and other cities (Rostock - Heinkel factories -, Hamburg, Münich and Köln) They also bombed rail-road nests in Aix-La-Chappelle, Maastricht, Flessingue and Middelburg in order to delay the Germans. After Italy declared war against France these bombers dropped leaflets over Roma and bombed fuel refinery in Porto Maghera and Livourne. The Lioré & Olivier 451 also bombed Germany and Italy but France had so few bombers and very few attack planes that it didn't change the strategical outcome.

On the French side there was a total lack of coordination between the infantry/tanks/artillery/aviation in comparison to the Germans who trained in that way. But in most occasions the French troops died on their positions instead of surrendering or retreating according to the 92,000 - 120,000 French KIA. The French soldiers fought often very bravely with what they had ... they fought well as companies and battalions but poorly as divisions and horribly as armies almost because of a bad doctrine, the absence of reconnaissance, communication issues etc. It is also wrong to depict the French officers as being not respected, it was not the case in most of the units where these officers were the single reason for the unit not to collapse under the German pressure. If indeed some generals were totally obsolete most of the lieutenants, captains and colonels had the will to fight and were well formed.

The French soldier was not at all prepared psychologically for the war which is an important point generally forgotten. Unlike the German soldier he didn't fought fanatically but simply for his comrades, unit, platoon or company commander etc. Without hate unlike the opposite side. Some tank crews have had their tanks for only one week, most of the infantry never saw a tank or a plane before they had to fight along them (or against them) and several unit really lacked training.
The Germans had light/medium/heavy tanks. In the French army the armored units did not constitute a part of the army by themselves, they were either depending from the infantry (support tanks like the FCM-36 or breakthrough tanks like the B1bis) or from the cavalry (like the Somua S35). They were never created to be an "autonomous" offensive tool, able to pierce and progress deep in ennemy territory. The breakthrough tanks had to give the initial push, to destroy the enemy line of resistance, allowing then the infantry to breakthrough anf take the ground.


The Maginot line :

The choice of building fortifications on the Maginot line had several goals :
- Avoid a surprise attack like in Belgium, Netherlands ... and give alert
- Cover the mobilization period (2-3 weeks)
- Economize forces (France had 39 millions citizens against 70 millions for Germany)
- Protect Alsace/Lorraine and all the industry there
- Be the basis for a counter-attack
- Force the Germans to attack by the flanks (Belgium or Switzerland)

Only after Dunkirk Hitler decided to attack the Maginot Line. The German crossed the Rhine and destroyed several small bunkers (new constructions) but the whole big forts, even attacked by heavy support (420 mm guns, Stuka ...) resisted to all assaults and inflicted heavy losses to the enemy. About 22,000 encircled men in Alsace/Lorraine mobilized 240,000 Germans and in the Alps 85,000 alpine troops defeated 650,000 Italians.
Mussolini assaulted with 650,000 men (20 first echelon divisions) against the Alps. The army of general Olry (France) had only 85,000 men and the country was already deadly hurt by the Wehrmacht who was going to attack this army on its rears. Armistice of June 25, 1940 arrived and no French position was lost in this sector.
The overwhelming numeric superiority of the Italians was limited because of the terrain which limited the use of motorized elements. The French fortifications constructed in the '30s was really efficient in this sector. At the end the Italian had lost 6000 men against less than 300 for the French Army.

Oddly enough, the Maginot line was a success ; it accomplished exactly what it was intended to do. It WASN'T designed to fully protect France from an attack from the east, though the Maginot line mentality fostered the idea that it would.
It was designed to compensate for France's inferiority in troops, vis-à-vis Germany, by reducing the area that the field army had to cover, and by freeing up personnel for that field army's manoeuvre divisions. It did exactly that. It wasn't the Maginot line's fault that the French High Command wasn't able to use the field army effectively.

Concerning the Maginot line in Alsace, the German did attack across the Rhine in June 40 (operation Kleiner Bär) with the VII Army (25th Korps, 27th Korps, 33rd Höh. Kdo, 213rd ID, 6th Gebirgsdivision ; more than 5 artillery regiments and strong air support. The French had to fight 1 vs 10 with second line troops and they had less than 10 field howitzers (a few 75mm and several 155mm) for a front of more or less 200 km.
The German massed heavy AA guns (88 mm) to fire directly at the bunkers at less than 200m and to destroy them while lower calibers (37mm AA and 37mm Pak) had to destroy the weapon slits (MG, mortars) and observation posts of the same bunker. In front of each French bunker there were about 4 to 6 Pak or Flak guns.

Armistice came on June 25, 1940 but only 1 week later did the fortifications surrender. Looking at these facts the Maginot Line did play a good part of its role. It avoided a surprise attack like in Poland, Belgium, Norway etc. It covered the mobilization period and no enemy incursion occurred during this period, it efficiently protected the industries in Alsace/Lorraine and forced Hitler to attack the neutral Belgium where elite troops were send to stop them. Every now knows that they did not manage to stop them and that they were attracted in Belgium.

Defeat was not a fatality and the Maginot line was not the reason of that defeat but became often the scapegoat.


Reasons of the quick fall of France ?

1) Political :

The French government was clearly weak.
From 1931 to 1939 Gamelin modelled a new army and made several errors :
- instead of unifying the command he diluted it in several intermediate command, what complicated the chain of command
- on the eve of war he created two TO : North East and the Alps
- He planned operation Dyle/Breda but against the opinion of the general Georges in charge of it on the field
- he did not understand the role of aviation in a modern war and was opposed to the creation of big armored formations
- in 1939 his collaborators and the army and no trust and no respect for him
- entrenched in the Vincennes castle he communicated only by phone and didn't want to yse modern radio equipment.

2) Strategically / Military :

- The French army was not able to lead a modern movement war
- Bad coordination between the infantry/tanks/artillery/aviation in comparison to the Germans who trained in that way.
- Grossly no reserves
- No serious counter-attack could be launched except operation in the Warndt (Sarre area) in 1939 but this is mainly due to High Command and political reasons.
- Lack in radios, most of the communication means were telephones, flags or men on motorcycles ... very slow when you have to make a quick decision against a quick advancing foe.
- A very important point is the lack in AA artillery compared to the German one (not enough pieces but also not enough AA ammunitions). The Stukas and Hs-123s had it easy while most of the French aircrafts were not destroyed by German fighters but by the very dense Flak the German had.
- The French soldier was also not at all prepared psychologically to the war which is an important point generally forgotten. Unlike the German soldier he didn't fought fanatically for his country or his Führer but simply for his comrades, unit, platoon or company commander.
- The communists often claimed that there were numerous in the resistance but they forgot to mention that it is because they were already well organized since the dissolution of their political movement in September 1939. Because of the German-Soviet agreement they were in favour of the Germans and were responsible for many strikes and sabotages. Farman factory had been damaged by a bomb in June and it is well known that many of the tanks/armament coming out from the Satory factory were sabotaged and that some tanks had mechanical breakdowns due to that. That does not explain at all the total defeat but it puts into light the general atmosphere in the country. Already before WW2 they led a subversive pacifist/internationalist campaign in the country and hindered the French armament program.


3) Psychological :

- France declared war to Germany with a civil population deeply pacifist after the WWI slaughter (France had about 6 millions losses that meant 10% of the active male population of the country - 1,400,000 KIA - and only in the late 50's the French population could reach again the number of before WW1).
- Communists' strikes and sabotages in the armament industries (because of the pact between Germany and Russia).
- The political power was weak.
- The defeat was already there, no real will to fight in the high spheres of decision.


Notes :

(1) After the battle of France, when engaging the Soviets, the German army once again was not the same than in May 1940. In August 1940, Hitler already decided that in further enlargement of the Army, the possibility of a campaign against Soviet Russia had to be considered. By the time this campaign began in June 1941, 84 more divisions were created. Without the extensive booty from the western campaign of 1940, these units would have remained without weapons and vehicles. Motor vehicles in particular played an important role in the motorization of at least some of the divisions. The 18.PzD was equipped with strictly stock French motor vehicles until the end of May 1941. Among the trucks, the 4.5-ton Citroën Type 45 attained a certain significance. The 1-ton Peugeot was also seen often. The same was true for the French halftrack (Somua MCL and MCG, Unic P107 etc.) towing vehicles, which were used as tractors in the Panzerjäger units, infantry gun companies and motorized artillery units.


(2) German vehicles/losses in Poland vs in France (Panzertruppen 1, Thomas Jentz, Schiffer) :

Poland
Total participating
Pz.Kpfw. I: 973
Pz.Kpfw. II: 1127
Pz.Kpfw. III: 87
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 112
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 55
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 198
Pz.Bef.: 219
Total: 2771

Total losses
Pz.Kpfw. I: 89
Pz.Kpfw. II: 83
Pz.Kpfw. III: 26
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 7
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 7
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 19
Pz.Bef.: 5
Total: 236

Losses in % of available
Pz.Kpfw. I: 9.1
Pz.Kpfw. II: 7.4
Pz.Kpfw. III: 29.9
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 6
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 12.7
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 9.6
Pz.Bef.: 2.3
Total: 8.5

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg
Total participating
Pz.Kpfw. I: 554
Pz.Kpfw. II: 920
Pz.Kpfw. III: 309
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 118
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 207
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 280
Pz.Bef.: 154
Total: 2542

Total losses (for both May and June)
Pz.Kpfw. I: 182
Pz.Kpfw. II: 240
Pz.Kpfw. III: 135
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 62
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 54
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 97
Pz.Bef.: 69
Total: 839 (the majority in France)

Losses in % of available
Pz.Kpfw. I: 32.9
Pz.Kpfw. II: 26.1
Pz.Kpfw. III: 43.7
Pz.Kpfw. 35(t): 52.5
Pz.Kpfw. 38(t): 26.1
Pz.Kpfw. IV: 34.6
Pz.Bef.: 44.8
Total: 33


FAMOUS FIERCE BATTLES IN FRANCE :
- Hannut / Gembloux
- Stonne
- Lille
- Abbeville
- Montcornet
- Flavion
- La Horgne
- Defense on the Loire river by the Cavalry school of Saumur
...

Regards,

David

Kitsune
06-02-2004, 01:13 AM
The German soldier is often better trained physically, is better equipped (lighter uniform etc.) and above all he has been better prepared psychologically for years while the French didn't wanted this war. The German soldier fought for Germany, for his Führer, he was well endoctrined.

That is not correct. I assure you, the German people did not want the war with France, either. WWI was still prominent in everyones minds (in fact not even Hitler wanted it, France declared war on Germany, not the other way round, remember? He wanted war and conquest in the east, not with the western powers, you can find this in "Mein Kampf").
Just before WWII Hitlers popularity dropped significantly in Germany every time he created a crisis which made a war probable. As it was on, the Germans displayed the typical "flocking around the flagg"phenomenon: war is a time to support ones country and to do ones duty (which you could see also with British and Americans during this last Gulf war...during the war there was only a comparatively small amount of criticism in the media, even in Britain, where the people did NOT want the war...this changed again after the war).
The indoctrinated, fanatical German is as much a myth as the huge monstrous Nazi military machine many people think of, when they hear the word "Wehrmacht".

Germans did not fight and die to uphold anti-semitism or racism (remember the confederated troops in the American civil war...did they fight and die to keep the blacks in chains? If had done interviews with confederated soldiers, they would give you quite other reasons what they are fighting for).
I agree, that there was a thirst for revenge, on the German side, after all the French had done their best to punish and thoroughly humiliate Germany after WWI. But this was not enough to start the war. But after it was won, most Germans felt satisfaction about it, that is true.

Apart from that, I agree with nearly everything else in your post. In fact, its about time, that someone corrects this "French pussie" image, that is so popular in the US right now. There is this typical myth this "French campaign" is envisioned as a battle between a German behemoth of 100.000 Tiger tanks against flower throwing french, or something, which never had the chance against the German super soldiers anyway...

Fact is, the German military were hastily built up armed forces (five years before nearly none of the tanks, rifles, artillery, areoplanes...used did exist. Thats also the reason for the horses: there was simply not enough stuff for full motorisation, so "Blitzkrieg" could never be realized completely).
Fact is, the German forces invading France were smaller than the forces France had at her disposal.
Fact is, the Germans weren't assured of victory at all, everyone, especially Hitler, was ****ing nervous (the whole attack plan was a huge gamble, actually some generals were so convinced that it would turn out as a desaster, that they planned to kill Hitler to prevent this from happening....they could not realize this, though).
Fact is also, that the war against France was not won because of the individual French soldiers lack of courage or fighting skill (nor because of the alleged single minded fanatism of the German soldier, mind you). It was won because of the longterm mistakes of the French military leadership. (Not all had their minds fogged up: Charles de Gaulle was a important theorist of the so called Blitzkrieg tactic, but he was not influential enough at that time).

Generally it is astounding how distorted the picture most people have of WWII (or, to a lesser but still significant degree, WWI) still is. After all that time.

David Lehmann
06-02-2004, 05:21 AM
Hello,

I don't think the main point of my post dealt with a "huge fanatical nazi army", I didn't wrote that. And the SS part of the German army consisted only of about 100,000 men at that time.
But due to the enthusiasm of the reconstruction of Germany (and yes you are right, the Ruhr area was occupied by French troops in the 20's and it was seen as a humiliation like the Versailles treaty in its whole after the WW1 German defeat), the feeling of growing power and the "militarization" of the society at all levels (youth training etc.) the German soldiers were more prepared psychologically for a war, they were better prepared to face that and in a better discipline according to several readings.
I only meant to take into account the psychological aspect of the common soldier since usually only the armament, tanks etc. numbers and characteristics are taken into account and not the Human factor. Nothing about a bloodthirsty powerful German army in my post ...

Concerning the German point of view have a look on Karl-Heinz Frieser's (Oberst Bundeswehr, MFGA) book "Blitzkrieg Legende" ... But I think it is for the moment only available in German and French.

Other books but usually in French :

Roger Bruge (éditions Fayard)
- "Faites sauter la ligne Maginot !" (Histoire de la ligne Maginot T1)
- "Histoire de la ligne Maginot ..." (Histoire de la ligne Maginot T2
- "Offensive sur le Rhin" (Histoire de la ligne Maginot T3)
- "Le sang versé" (Les combattants du 18 juin T1)
- "Les Derniers feux" (Combattants du 18 juin T2)
- "L'Armée broyée" (Combattants du 18 juin T3)
- "Le Cessez-le-feu" (Combattants du 18 juin T4)

HENRI DE WAILLY
- "1940, l'effondrement" (PERRIN)
- "DE GAULLE SOUS LE CASQUE - ABBEVILLE 1940" (PERRIN)
- "LA VICTOIRE EVAPOREE - ABBEVILLE 1940" (PERRIN)
- "LE COUP DE FAUX, ASSASSINAT D'UNE VILLE"- ABBEVILLE 1940"
- "Weygand, De Gaulle,et quelques autres" (Lavauzelle 1983)

Patrick De Gmeline (Presses de la Cité)
- "Les Corps Francs 39/40"
- "Les Cadets de Saumur"

Gérard Saint-Marin (Economica )
l'arme blindée française
T1 (mai-juin 40 :les blindées français dans la tourmente)
T2 (dans le fracas des batailles 40-45)

THIBAULT RICHARD
" Des forêts d’Alsace aux chemins de Normandie. La 43e division d’infanterie dans la guerre 1939-1940"

Patrick Facon (Economica)
"L'armée de l'air dans la tourmente - la bataille de France 1939-1940" ISBN : 2-7178-3319-6

Jean-Yves Mary et Alain Hohnadel (Histoire et collections)
"Hommes et ouvrages de la ligne Maginot"
TOME I
TOME II
TOME III

F. Vauvilier et J.M. Touraine (Massin) (indispensable pour les véhicules)
"1939-40 : L'Automobile sous l'uniforme"

Stéphane Ferrard (ETAI) (indispensable pour l'armement et les véhicules)
"France 40, l'armement terrestre"

Stéphane Bonnaud et François Vauvillier (Histoire et Collections)
"Chars B au combat, hommes et matériels du 15e BCC"

Jacques Sicard et François Vauvillier (Histoire et Collections)
"Les chasseurs d'Afrique"

Levisse-Touzé (Tallandier)
"La campagne de 1940"

P. Le Goyet (Economica)
"La défaite 10 mai-25 juin 1940"

Jean-Paul Pallud (Heimdal)
"Blitzkrieg à l'Ouest : Mai -Juin 1940"

An other good reflexion book about French defeat / German victory has been written together by many foreign historians (foreign in my French point of view). I don't know if there is a translated version.
"Mai - Juin 1940 : défaite française, victoire allemande, sous l'oeil des historiens étrangers" (Autrement)
ISBN : 2-86260.991.9
under the direction of Maurice Vaïsse and with the contributions of
Martin S. Alexander (UK - Salford university)
Nicholas Atkin (UK - Reading university)
Philip M.H. Bell (UK - Liverpool university)
Robert A. Doughty (US - West Point)
Karl-Heinz Frieser (Germany - Bundeswehr)
Julian Jackson (US - Swansea university)
Klaus-Jürgen Müller (Germany - Bundeswehr / Hamburg university)
Dennis E. Showalter (US - Colorado Springs university)
Martin Thomas (UK - Bristol university)
Maurice Vaïsse (France - Reims university and CEHD)


Regarding good English-language books, there is Julian Jackson's recent opus with the imaginative title of "The Fall of France". Jackson goesbeyond military history, though, and discusses society etc as well, so if you want a strict blow-by-blow account you're better off sticking to older works like Horne's classic "To Lose A Battle".
Jackson makes a nice tour d'horizon of the France 1940 historiography. ie has a good bibliography for those who want to dig a little deeper, but he also seems to have actually read the books !

Perhaps other very good books in English would be
"Divided and Conquered" by Gunsberg and
"The Breaking Point" by Doughty.

- "Blitzkrieg in the West" (Belgian and French campaign), Jean-Paul Pallud, After The Battle

- "From Munich to the Liberation 1938-1944", Jean-Pierre Azema (translation Janet Lloyd)

- "The fall of France", General André Beaufre (Beaufre was a member of French General Staff. Preface by Sir Basil Hart), Alfred A Knopf, 1968

- "The French Defeat of 1940 : Reassessments, Joël Blatt, Berghahn Books (Providence) 1998

- "Military Technology in Republican France : The Evolution of the French Armored Force 1917-1940", Jeffrey J. Clarke, Duke University, 1969

- "The Seeds of Disaster : The Development of French Army Doctrine 1919-1939", Robert Allan Doughty, Archon Books (Hamden) 1986

- "The fall of France", George Forty and John Duncan, Nutshell, 1990

- "Arming Against Hitler : France and the limits of military planning", Jenny Hiesling, Eugenia.

- "Duel 10 May-31 July 1940", John Lukacs, Ticknor (NY) 1991

- "The French Order of Battle in World War II 1939-1945 : An Organizational History of the Divisions of the French Army", George F. Nafziger, Nafziger (West Chester OH) 1995

Among other books in English are these older ones :
"The Collapse of the Third Republic" by Shirer
"Why France Fell" by Guy Chapman
"The War in France & Flanders" by Ellis
a picture book with text "The Fall of France-Act With Daring" by Martin Evans.

Lee Sharp (Milton Keynes, UK: The Military Press) ... for the OoBs
http://stonebooks.com/archives/021215.shtml
http://www.militarypress.co.uk/
- "The French Army, 1939-1940, volume 1"
- "The French Army, 1939-1940, volume 2"
- "The French Army, 1939-1940, volume 3"

etc.

Regards,

David

David Lehmann
06-02-2004, 05:38 AM
Hello,

Concerning my family history related to WW2 :

On my mother's side I never knew my grandfather because he died when my mother was 6 years old. His name was Eugène Hoff, he served in 1939/1940 in the French army. He was heavily wounded in the Netherlands in May 1940 and died a few years later from his wounds.
In May 1940 elements from the French 7th Army entered in the Netherlands to meet the Germans and several elements left France by boat to land in Flessingue and fought in the Zealand islands (Walcheren etc.). I think this grandfather was either in the 68e DI, 271e RI, 68e GRDI or in the 1e DLM. I hope tho identify his unit soon on a photo provided by my mother.

On My father's side, my other grandfather Maximilien Lehmann, still alive and close to 92 years old, was a "Malgré-Nous" (requisitioned men ... in Alsace they were considered as Volksdeutsche) in the German army on the Eastern Front. He served in an engineer unit (AFAIK not a Sturmpionnier units or something like that but more a building/bridging unit) and he was also sharpshooter in his unit (not sniper). Captured by the Soviets in 1944 and interned in the labour/retaliation camp of Tambow until years after the end of the war.

Regards,

David

Apogeumus
06-04-2004, 07:37 AM
We can't forget that french was much more powerful and bigger than polish army in 1939. Poland was invided by German, Soviet Union (there was also Slovak unit as remember), invasion was from almost all direction. Nobody helped Poland (French and UK were in military pact with Poles but they do nothing really to help). French didn't fight alone, there was UK , polish and other nationality units. France was invided by German and later by Italian, but it wasn't so massive invasion like German did with Soviets in 1939. So you shouldn't compare this two campaign to show how good defender were French, because there are big difference among them.

OldRecon
06-04-2004, 01:02 PM
Having studied the German invasion of Norway during 1940, it struck me that the German forces were much better at combined arms tactics than their opponents, and that their infantry had a real fetish about flanking movements.
Allmost in 9 times out of 10 the Norwegian or British positions were broken by flanking movements.
Guess much of the same was the case during the German invasion of France and the low countries later during the spring of 1940.
As for the quality of German vs. allied training during that period, I still despite views above regard German training as superior. If for no other reason that German soldiers at every level in the chain of command were expected to be less dependent on direction from above than their opponents. And though German soldiers may have lacked range training, their "dry training" in how to work together on the battlefield must have been much more focused than the comparable training of their opposite numbers.
At least they seem to have had a much better idea of what to do without officers around than the the soldiers of the French armies, who seem to have defended vigorously as long as there were leadership and secure lines of supply and communication, yet who seemed to have no satisfactory answer to German flanking movements (from infantry as well as the panzer divisions).
The Luftwaffe gaining air superiority also seem to have been crucial for their victory. In part caused by the dispersed chain of command of the French air assets, and in part by German technological superiority in certain key aspects of technology. Particularly with regards to fighters, where the Allied air forces had no asset truly comparable to the ME-109 (bar the Dewoitine monoplanes that reached squadrons when it was really allready to late), and tactical support aircraft.
There also seems to have been a good deal of complacency in the French army, not only at top Level.