Persian Immortals

[Persian Snipers]

http://www.photius.com/images/ir05_01b.jpg




In 1921 a Persian Royal Guard was in existence comprising 20,000 men. A Guard Division was raised in 1925, incorporating both cavalry and infantry units.


The core of the Imperial Guard was the all volunteer Javidan Guard, also known as the "Immortals" after the ancient Persian royal guard or Persian Immortals


By 1978 the Imperial Guard (including conscripts outside the Javidan units) was 18,000 strong, with artillery, armored and helicopter units. The entire Guard comprised some 6% of the army, and were the only troops stationed permanently in the capital Tehran. Imperial Guard units were distinguished by salmon (light red) coloured insignia. The Pahlavi Cavalry Guard had special blue and red ceremonial uniforms, including silver cuirasses and crested helmets.


The Imperial Guard remained loyal to the Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi until his departure for exile in January 1979. After two days of fighting (9-11 February) with armed civilians and dissident air force and army personnel the Imperial Guard was withdrawn to its bases and thereafter largely disintegrated. The Javidan Guard was formally dissolved by the new Iranian regime, though some units of the wider Imperial Guard remained in existence.


Following the revolution the remaining units of the Imperial Guard were stripped of their historic privileges and duties and integrated into the 21st Division of the regular army (Artesh). As such they saw action in the Iran-Iraq war


The end of the Guard


The last Commander of the Imperial Guard, General Ali Neshat was executed as were a number of other officers and guardsmen. The former included several former Guard Commanders, such as Lieutenant General Abdul Ali Badrehi (1965-78), who had risen to be Commander of Ground Forces. General Gholam Ali Oveisi, (Imperial Guard Commander 1960-65), subsequently became Chief of the Army Staff before being made Military Governor of Tehran in 1978. He was appointed Minister of labor and Social Affairs from 1978-79 and was assassinated in 1984 in Paris.


http://www.alineshat.com/images/neshat5.jpg

General Ali Neshat, Executed in 1978.

http://www.parasteshlite.com/guards.jpg




Do you guys think that the Guard could have possible risen to become Special Forces, or any form of Counter Terrorism in the Middle East? Especially with the rising secularity in the Iranian Government.


Please no flaming, as it is disrespectful.

[Limeyfellow]

Do you guys think that the Guard could have possible risen to become Special Forces, or any form of Counter Terrorism in the Middle East? Especially with the rising secularity in the Iranian Government.

Please no flaming, as it is disrespectful.

I don't really think so, anymore than the Republican Guard in Iraq were, while a strongarm dictator was ruling that country. They might be considered an elite guard unit and deal with some counter terrorist activities fighting the various marxist and kurdish rebel groups crossing from Iraq and so on, but I don't see them becoming some big counter terrorist group out there fighting along the whole Middle East. The Arab nations would never have allowed it. I see it more as a unit of loyal troops who would be used to crush the enemies of the Shah, be it religious extremists, students, or anyone else the Shah currently hated.

Of course the Shah was no wonderful man either and when he pushed his nation too far and his foreign support pulled out he didn't have much of a choice other then legging it.

[LineDoggie]

http://www.photius.com/images/ir05_01b.jpg








http://www.alineshat.com/images/neshat5.jpg


http://www.parasteshlite.com/guards.jpg




Do you guys think that the Guard could have possible risen to become Special Forces, or any form of Counter Terrorism in the Middle East? Especially with the rising secularity in the Iranian Government.


Please no flaming, as it is disrespectful.

Hmmm, interesting first picIsraeli UZI smg's with IMI web gear as well, never realized that there were ties

[SGMGSG9]

http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/3730/2479/lo/300FC-00008.jpg
I see your Persian Immortals, & raise you 300 Spartan's.

[Wildgoose]

Damn you Shooter! I was drinking a Coke and spit it up at the screen when I saw the Spartans. I saw that one coming! rofl

[Persian Snipers]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/000_Persian_Heavy_Cavalry.jpg
I see your 300 Spartans, & raise you 1 Immortal.

[Karaahmetoglu]

http://allempires.com/empires/huns/Arm.jpg
I see your 300 Greeks and 300 Persians, and I raise you one Hun warrior!

Just curious has there been any uprisings after the Revolution in Iran, for pro Secularism?

[SGMGSG9]

History is always written by the victors, The Spartans ultimately lost the battle of Thermopylae, but yet history & the victors remember the Spartans valor.

[Persian Snipers]

Just curious has there been any uprisings after the Revolution in Iran, for pro Secularism?


Yes, there have been manny liberty marches, however, none of a very large scale.

I would say atleast 90% of Iranians would like a new form of government. Its just that Islamic Regimes often deal with protesters very harshly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Batebi

[Karaahmetoglu]

Yes, there have been manny liberty marches, however, none of a very large scale.

I would say atleast 90% of Iranians would like a new form of government. Its just that Islamic Regimes often deal with protesters very harshly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Batebi


Sad really, if Iran would become Secular again Turkey can get a very valuable ally. Iran of course would be better though. Sighhh

[Persian Snipers]

Sad really, if Iran would become Secular again Turkey can get a very valuable ally. Iran of course would be better though. Sighhh


As far as I can see, Iran cannot be "Fixed" without International help.


It would be a key victory in the War on Terror if Iran became Secular, and an Ally of the US like it once was.

[Karaahmetoglu]

As far as I can see, with Iran cannot be "Fixed" without International help.

And that ain't comin anytime soon. The way I see it Persians, have to somehow get U.S intervene, and the dumb leaders seem to be doing a good job of that.

[eskachig]

History is always written by the victors, The Spartans ultimately lost the battle of Thermopylae, but yet history & the victors remember the Spartans valor. Everyone remembers the Spartans, but nobody remembers the 1500 Thespians who stuck around for the last stand. I guess that's probably because Spartans were legendary ****s, and this is one of their few bright moments.

Maybe it's the irony - that this culture's greatest scum allowed its bright dawn to survive and eventually spread to Europe proper.

[People's General]

Just curious has there been any uprisings after the Revolution in Iran, for pro Secularism?
leftists, People's Mujahedin of Iran , and pro-Soviet socialist Tudeh Party of Iran. they did,
but the movement been crackdown cruelty

[KVLG]

Hmmm, interesting first picIsraeli UZI smg's with IMI web gear as well, never realized that there were ties

The Shah's government was pretty friendly with Israel. Of course, the Ayatollah was another matter. Yet, Tel Aviv still dealt arms to Tehran, so as to help get Iranian Jews out quickly, if I'm not mistaken. No doubt spare parts for the Uzis were included, if not more subguns. In fact, the Uzi was the standard subgun for the Iranian military under the Shah.

[bigvig]

Oh gods, not another 300 discussion.

[Persian Snipers]

This thread is about the Military History of the Immortals, thanks for the spam though.

[bigvig]

Of course, there was a lot of information about the Immortals in your previous post. :roll:

[CombatBoots]

Alright now every greek is going to break a plate on this?
This thread had a purpose, go back to it.

[Hauser]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/000_Persian_Heavy_Cavalry.jpg
I see your 300 Spartans, & raise you 1 Immortal.

That isn't a Persian Immortal, it is Persian heavy cavalry. This is a Persian Immortal:
http://monolith.dnsalias.org/%7Emarsares/resource/pix/warfare/army/p_immort.jpg
Wicker, nice choice for a shield...

[khukuri]

That isn't a Persian Immortal, it is Persian heavy cavalry. This is a Persian Immortal:
http://monolith.dnsalias.org/%7Emarsares/resource/pix/warfare/army/p_immort.jpg
Wicker, nice choice for a shield...

Nice pajamas...

[bigvig]

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/history/civilization-persia1/images/Persian%20Immortals%20Darius%20III,%20Spear%20Bearer,%20Immortal.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/3172/persianimmortal2ip8.jpg

http://www.livius.org/a/1/iran/persian_warrior.jpg

[Persian Snipers]

Nice Army ;)


(ofcourse im' refering to the Iraqi army)

Oh No He DIDN"T!!!

[California Joe]

This is the History section not Off Topic. If you guys want to discuss your love of hot naked Spartans start your own f*cking thread.

[Pars]

Would be nice with a proper thread about the Immortals and not another 300-thread, yes.

Good iniative.

[LEB101]

I'm an idiot that doesn't read well.

[CombatBoots]

...,,,,...,,,,

[kahn267]

The Shah's government was pretty friendly with Israel. Of course, the Ayatollah was another matter. Yet, Tel Aviv still dealt arms to Tehran, so as to help get Iranian Jews out quickly, if I'm not mistaken. No doubt spare parts for the Uzis were included, if not more subguns. In fact, the Uzi was the standard subgun for the Iranian military under the Shah.

Thanks thats very interesting to know.
Was wondering were this connection with the UZIs came from.

Strange how it was Iran who helped give Israel intelligence to bomb Saddam's nuclear facility after their failed attempt

[kahn267]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/MillionaireSparta.jpg

[bigvig]

I guess people just won't listen.


This is the History section not Off Topic. If you guys want to discuss your love of hot naked Spartans start your own f*cking thread.

[Hauser]

I guess people just won't listen.

You have made 4 posts in this topic, and 3 of them have been a post to bitch about someone else's post not being on topic. Irony

Edit: 4 of 5...

[bigvig]

Maybe it is irony, maybe people can't read.

[Salman]

So they were named immortals because their numbers were always kept at a certain level, that is if some would die in battle the replacements would be poured in immedietly?

[Pars]

So they were named immortals because their numbers were always kept at a certain level, that is if some would die in battle the replacements would be poured in immedietly?

Sir, you are correct.

[Mordoror]

it was a corps of around 10 000 elite soldiers that acted like guard for the Persian kings
A lot of them were nobles or close to the royal family
so they were (by Persian standard) the best trained and equiped
which means the most worthy and costly dresses (made of silk), gold and silver rings and necklaces and so on

Off course even with a high training, being light infantry they were not a match against heavy hoplitic infantry

[Pars]

Off course even with a high training, being light infantry they were not a match against heavy hoplitic infantry

Yes, I guess the might of the Persian Empire lay in its heavy cavalry.

[Yosy]

Off course even with a high training, being light infantry they were not a match against heavy hoplitic infantry

Yes, it was stupidity of the Persians to face off the Greeks in Thermopylae. Had they managed to drag the greeks to an open-field battle, they would have crush them with their excellent combined arms tactics.

And I always wondered WHY did the persians wanted to expand so far to the West - what is now Turkey was an excellent natural border back then. And Greece is mountainous terrain - not at all suited to the persians. They would have been more secessful if they expanded to North Africa IMO.

By the way check this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3322659#post3322659

And don't comment it in this one. :p

[Mordoror]

Yes, it was stupidity of the Persians to face off the Greeks in Thermopylae. Had they managed to drag the greeks to an open-field battle, they would have crush them with their excellent combined arms tactics.

And I always wondered WHY did the persians wanted to expand so far to the West - what is now Turkey was an excellent natural border back then. And Greece is mountainous terrain - not at all suited to the persians. They would have been more secessful if they expanded to North Africa IMO.

By the way check this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3322659#post3322659

And don't comment it in this one. :p

but they did somehow ....
at some moment, the Persian Empire was extended to Palestine and Egypt

sending armies to continental Europe is often mistaken as a true wanted expansion
in fact either it was to support some allied kingdoms (especially those that bordered Greece) or to punish Greece for supporting some unresting Greek states on the Asia coasts

As far as Persia was concerned, Greece was regarded as a strategic ennemy on that part of the mediterranean sea by the Persian empire because of its influence on the Greek cities of Asia and their growing part on the sea trade control ways

Moreover, it was a shock between two civilizations
one with a lot of independant cities struggling one with others but uniting them when needed, with different political systems (Democracy, Oligarchy, Militarism...) vs an overstreched empire very centralized but which borders were unstable because of being too far from the center of power .... and the greek actions or ideas spreading were facilitating that instability

In fact the Persians expeditions were very few (and failed) but the Persians used to intervene before that more often in the political relationship between the Greek cities states either by providing gold, ships, mercenaries often to one side or to the opposite side, just to get the Greeks to remain not united (because united Greeks were more dangerous .... you know it "divide to rule") and it succeeded
....until the military invasions gave the opposite result

[Yosy]

but they did somehow ....
at some moment, the Persian Empire was extended to Palestine and Egypt

Yes but if they went even more westwards - Lybia, Algeria - they would have had a better chance of expansion (although the lybians were notorious for being great warriors - they were constantly harassing Egypt).



sending armies to continental Europe is often mistaken as a true wanted expansion

I think it was precisely that - after all Darius and Xerxes were near the front lines. This wasn't just a punitive expedition - the Persians wanted to control the Aegean Sea and later the Mediterranean and were tired of the greek presence in Asia Minor. Only after two failed expeditions did the Persian Empire realised that the greek city-states were a power to be reckoned with and they retreated to their sphere of influence. Like the Cold War between USA and USSR, this was also a cold war between Greeks and Persians. And both continued to meddle in each others affairs.

[Winger]

Little known fact...Sparta's victory over Athens in the later 400s BC was accomplished with Persian support and involved the Immortals.

[Mordoror]

Little known fact...Sparta's victory over Athens in the later 400s BC was accomplished with Persian support

money support and mercenary pilots for the Spartan (and allied cities) fleet

however, that
and involved the Immortals. is very unlikely (or you have some sources ?)

[Raven_gr]

No Immortals were involved, but yes the Spartans couldn't have paid for that fleet that eventually beat the Athenians without Persian help.

It's one of those what if' s in history. If the Persian wars didn't occur we might never have seen the apex of Ancient Greek civilization. It gave first a sense of identity, that "yes we are different, but we all belong to the same nation". Actually after the Persian invasion the Greek city states that went with the Persians for whatever reason were looked down upon by the rest and were punished one way or the other. When you see Parthenon one should know that it was funded by the income the Athenians collected from the Delian League, the let's say NATO of the day. In the end Alexander the Great marched against the Persians at the head of a united Greek force, well except the Spartans. Here is an excerpt from Arrian's Anabasis on the accounts after the Battle of Granicus "He also buried the Persian commanders and the Greek mercenaries who were killed fighting on the side of the enemy. But as many of them as he took prisoners he bound in fetters and sent them away to Macedonia to till the soil, because, though they were Greeks, they were fighting against Greece on behalf of the foreigners in opposition to the decrees which the Greeks had made in their federal council. To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip, and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians, present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia."

[Peris]

Everyone remembers the Spartans, but nobody remembers the 1500 Thespians who stuck around for the last stand. I guess that's probably because Spartans were legendary ****s, and this is one of their few bright moments.

Maybe it's the irony - that this culture's greatest scum allowed its bright dawn to survive and eventually spread to Europe proper.


it was 700 Thespians.

[Persian Snipers]

Yes, it was stupidity of the Persians to face off the Greeks in Thermopylae. Had they managed to drag the greeks to an open-field battle, they would have crush them with their excellent combined arms tactics.

And I always wondered WHY did the persians wanted to expand so far to the West - what is now Turkey was an excellent natural border back then. And Greece is mountainous terrain - not at all suited to the persians. They would have been more secessful if they expanded to North Africa IMO.

By the way check this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3322659#post3322659

And don't comment it in this one. :p


Are you an Idiot? Iran is mostly mountainous terrain. Infact, the persians in the north held off the Arabs from the mountain side for a while, they were trained to fight in mountainous areas. Also, North Africa is DESERT. Kinda ironic seeing how King Yazdgerd III called the Arabs "desert dwellers".

Persians might have stayed in some desert areas, but definatly were not dependant on it, nor fond of it.

heres of few examples of Iran's Mountainous terrain:
http://www.weneedtrees.com/iran/nature/naturea-damavand.jpg
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=10054&rendTypeId=4
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Mazandaran_Elburz_SoloPeak01.jpg

There ya go

[Yosy]

Are you an Idiot? Iran is mostly mountainous terrain. Infact, the persians in the north held off the Arabs from the mountain side for a while, they were trained to fight in mountainous areas. Also, North Africa is DESERT. Kinda ironic seeing how King Yazdgerd III called the Arabs "desert dwellers".

Persians might have stayed in some desert areas, but definatly were not dependant on it, nor fond of it.

heres of few examples of Iran's Mountainous terrain:
http://www.weneedtrees.com/iran/nature/naturea-damavand.jpg
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=10054&rendTypeId=4
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Mazandaran_Elburz_SoloPeak01.jpg

There ya go


First of all I demand respect - specially from a newbie who thinks that knows it all.

And secondly, I know Iran is mountainous terrain (Zagros Mountains), but the persians seemed to have forgotten all the lessons of fighting in mountainous terrain when they invaded Greece - their cavalry, archers, and infantry weapons were completly unsuited to the greek terrain and hoplite infantry tactics that went with it. This was a mistake of epic proportions that they made.



Little known fact...Sparta's victory over Athens in the later 400s BC was accomplished with Persian support

Not that little known - Alcibiades was for some time working for the persians. And both Athens and Sparta wanted the persians to help them against the other.

[Winger]

First of all I demand respect - specially from a newbie who thinks that knows it all.

And secondly, I know Iran is mountainous terrain (Zagros Mountains), but the persians seemed to have forgotten all the lessons of fighting in mountainous terrain when they invaded Greece - their cavalry, archers, and infantry weapons were completly unsuited to the greek terrain and hoplite infantry tactics that went with it. This was a mistake of epic proportions that they made.



Not that little known - Alcibiades was for some time working for the persians. And both Athens and Sparta wanted the persians to help them against the other.

So the Athenians tried to get the Persians to help them fight the Spartans?

[Skutatos]

http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/graphics/greecepersiamaplarge.jpg

Here is the persian empire at the time, as can be seen, it is quite large. The persian military was likely meant to be a light, rapid moving force that could be called up for a short time to put down rebellions and defend its borders. Considering the nature of their enemies there was really no need for a heavy infantry force like the greek hoplites.

The greek system actually produced relatively light casualties when hoplites went against hoplites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mantinea_(418_BC))

[Yosy]

So the Athenians tried to get the Persians to help them fight the Spartans?

Humm...I thought so - specially under Alcibiades, when he returned from exile in Persia to Athens, I thought that he tried to persuade his countrymen to ally with the persians. But his political enemies in Athens got to him first.

From Wikipedia page on Alcibiades: "Alcibiades seemed to assume that the "radical democracy" would never agree to his recall to Athens.[46] Therefore, he exchanged messages with the Athenian leaders at Samos and suggested that if they could install an oligarchy friendly to him he would return to Athens and bring with him Persian money and possibly the Persian fleet of 147 triremes."

Bottom line is: the persians continued to meddle in greek affairs.

[OnTheRocks]

The defeat of the Persian invasion in 480BC had little to do with Thermopylae and everything to do with Themistocles insisting that Athens build a proper navy to be able to defend against the persian navy.

On a strategic level the battle of Thermopylae is dwarfed in importance to the battle of Salamis when one conciders the effect that the loss of their fleet had on the Persian invasion force. Athens was sacked after thermopylae, but the loss of the fleet forced Xerxes to withdraw the majority of his forces back to asia. After that it was only a matter of time.

The persian army was hugely dependent on its cavalry and was by design indended to be used against foes with similar military doctrine according to authors that I have read. Immortals were concidered to be heavy infantry when compared to other eastern troop types (even Herodotus describes them as such), however they were still lightly armed when compared to the greeks.

Their defeat at Marathon earlier on when Darius was king was also caused in part by the fact that their cavalry was withdrawn.

During the Achaemenid dynasty the Immortals fought on foot, some say on foot with a portion of them being cavalry.
It was during the Sassanid dynasty that they were revived and fought solely as cavalry.

[Beowulf]

haha Alcibiades...: "Not wike a woman wike a wion"....

[Peris]

The defeat of the Persian invasion in 480BC had little to do with Thermopylae and everything to do with Themistocles insisting that Athens build a proper navy to be able to defend against the persian navy.

On a strategic level the battle of Thermopylae is dwarfed in importance to the battle of Salamis when one conciders the effect that the loss of their fleet had on the Persian invasion force. Athens was sacked after thermopylae, but the loss of the fleet forced Xerxes to withdraw the majority of his forces back to asia. After that it was only a matter of time.

The persian army was hugely dependent on its cavalry and was by design indended to be used against foes with similar military doctrine according to authors that I have read. Immortals were concidered to be heavy infantry when compared to other eastern troop types (even Herodotus describes them as such), however they were still lightly armed when compared to the greeks.

Their defeat at Marathon earlier on when Darius was king was also caused in part by the fact that their cavalry was withdrawn.

During the Achaemenid dynasty the Immortals fought on foot, some say on foot with a portion of them being cavalry.
It was during the Sassanid dynasty that they were revived and fought solely as cavalry.




you are right about the armament of the immortals and Persian soldiers in general. Their defensive equipment was very poor contrary to the Greek one.


In the known argument between Themistocles and Eurybiades about the place of the naval battle Evriviades says: you are obliged to save EUROPE!!!!

plus one trick:

Sicinnus (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sicinnus&action=edit&redlink=1), Themistocles' trusty slave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Athenian_slaves) of Persian origin, pretended that he deserted from the Athenian army and convinced Xerxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes) to send his Egyptian squadron to blockade the western outlet of the straits, which also served to block any Greek ships who might be planning to escape. This was exactly what Themistocles wanted Xerxes to do. Sicinnus (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sicinnus&action=edit&redlink=1) was later rewarded with emancipation and Athenian citizenship.

[Russian_dude]

I guess anybody can give themselves a hot name, like Masters of the Universe, Immortals, Max Power or Super God-Like Cavalry That Never Looses. However if the troops are illiterate pesants or soft city folk... Gaugamela anyone?

[Mordoror]

once again, Immortals were not illiterate (they were not the basic light infantry asiatic peasantry levee regularly done through the Persian Empire)
After all many authros said that they were from noble families


And when used appropriatly they performed well (against others Persians ennemies like Indians in the very young days of the Empire)

But when confonted to true heavy infantry on a flat battlefield they standed not chance

that's the same let's say when you put a regiment of BT5 or BT7 soviet tanks vs Panthers or even Tigers ...
the pilots can be top cracks they stand little chance to win .....

[Yosy]

The defeat of the Persian invasion in 480BC had little to do with Thermopylae and everything to do with Themistocles insisting that Athens build a proper navy to be able to defend against the persian navy.


Not quite. Of course Salamis, Platea, Marathon, are "more important" than Thermopylae, but the latter contributed to the defeat of the persians since it delayed the persian army so that the greeks could prepare better for the crucial naval battle they knew that would come (Salamis).

[Raven_gr]

True, but the greatest effect could be that on the political agenda. First with their sacrifice the Spartans proved the lengths they would go to preserve Greece, not just their state, second they showed that the Persians were not invincible even on land no matter their numerical might.