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TR1
06-11-2008, 02:25 PM
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10094

11 Jun, 2008, 1438 hrs IST, AGENCIES

KALININGRAD-RUSSIA: The Yantar Shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad was slated to launch Wednesday construction of the third Krivak-class frigate for the Indian Navy under a second contract, the company said.

Russia previously built three Krivak-class frigates - INS Talwar, INS Trishul and INS Tabar - for India and delivered them all by the end of 2004.

In July 2006, India and Russia had signed a contract for the purchase of three additional Project 11356 Krivak IV-class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy.

A company spokesman said work on the first two frigates was progressing as per schedule as part of the second contract.

All three ships will be delivered to India by 2012. They will feature the BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile system instead of the Club-N/3M54TE missile system, which was installed on the previous frigates.

The Krivak-class frigate has deadweight of 4,000 tonnes and speed of 30 knots, and is capable of accomplishing a wide range of missions in the sea, primarily hunting down and destroying large surface ships and submarines.

Snoshi
06-11-2008, 02:26 PM
When will Russia build something for its navy?

TR1
06-11-2008, 02:34 PM
:roll:
-the Steregushy. Its 3 sisters are well under way.
-The Gorshkov destroyer is well under completion as well.
-the St. Petersburg and its 3 Lada class submarine sisters
-A new amphibious ship.
-the Yuri Dolgoruki and its sisters
-the Severodvinsk
-the Yaroslav Mudry


plenty of ships are well under construction, the past few years have seen a significant rise in funding to new construction for the navy.

Afro-European
06-11-2008, 02:41 PM
:roll:
-the Steregushy. Its 3 sisters are well under way.
-The Gorshkov destroyer is well under completion as well.
-the St. Petersburg and its 3 Lada class submarine sisters
-A new amphibious ship.
-the Yuri Dolgoruki and its sisters
-the Severodvinsk
-the Yaroslav Mudry


plenty of ships are well under construction, the past few years have seen a significant rise in funding to new construction for the navy.
Good news.But the main problem with Russia is that they don't deliver their ***** on time.This one won't be different.(I can be wrong though).

TR1
06-11-2008, 02:42 PM
The previous Talwars were delivered just fine, and it seems the Indians are pleased enough to order 3 more.....so far delivery date is still the same, no reason to think it will change, as the shipyard has experience building these exact ships.

Sqd544
06-11-2008, 02:46 PM
The previous Talwars were delivered just fine, and it seems the Indians are pleased enough to order 3 more.....so far delivery date is still the same, no reason to think it will change, as the shipyard has experience building these exact ships.

You can't argue with success. If the customer comes back to purchase more, the Russian builders must have done something right.

Afro, didn't know you were in the business of buying Russian equipment p-)

Adux
06-11-2008, 02:49 PM
Indians were very happy with the first 3 Russians delievered (on time) they are modified Kirvak III, frigates with some Israeli, French and Indian ssytems on board.
Its a beautiful ship.
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z297/Fredi1978/talwar200307bb10ch8dotjpg

Adux
06-11-2008, 02:50 PM
Russians and Indian defence purchase, friendship and business goes back long way, There have been problems only on couple of projects.

TR1
06-11-2008, 02:51 PM
The Gorshkov project being built for the Russian Navy right now will almost certainly incorporate many elements of the Talwar ships, albeit on a larger scale.

Sanat-e-naft
06-11-2008, 02:52 PM
What a beautiful ship! What parts are generally added from Israel or other countries to the Russian ship?

Adux
06-11-2008, 03:09 PM
Sanat,

We plan to install Barak-8's , Thales navigation system, Indian sonar etc etc. We have standardized on barak's as our air defence missile.

TR1
06-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Barak is mounted on the Talwars? Since when? I was not aware, interesting. The ships also have two Kashtan modules, I certainly hope the Barak doesn't replace, but compliments them.

Adux
06-11-2008, 03:12 PM
The Gorshkov project being built for the Russian Navy right now will almost certainly incorporate many elements of the Talwar ships, albeit on a larger scale.

Can you give me some details on the above project, From what I heard the next 3 talwars are quite more spohisiticated than the current versions. Indians did have the problem with Russia changing the Shipyard to yantar, we are bankrolling all shipyards in Russia...lol..but whatever get our friends out of trouble, as long as we get our money's worth..lol

We are planning 3 lines of Destroyers, and 3 lines of frigates.

TheArmenian
06-11-2008, 03:14 PM
The first 3 ships don't have the BARAK system. I don't know if this new batch will have them.

Snoshi
06-11-2008, 03:22 PM
This is what i found from an India site

After 17 months of complex inter-government negotiations, the deal was concluded on January 27 but kept under wraps for ‘‘political reasons’’, sources said. The Barak-II will be jointly developed by the Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI), the Barak programme’s secondary integrator Rafael and by the Hyderabad-based Defence Research & Development Laboratories (DRDL), with the two countries splitting the approximately $330 million kick-start investment.

DRDO sources told Express, ‘‘It will be based on the original Barak, but we will work together for longer range, a more refined seeker, a long-range target-tracking system, better downlinking capabilities and possibly a new propulsion system and payload capacity.’’ In a phased manner, the Barak-I and the Barak-II missiles will replace the ageing Russian OSA-M and Volna RZ-31 missiles still in operation on most Indian warships. Navy sources pointed to the inherent advantage of the Barak family’s digital systems over the analog computers that guide the Russian missiles.

The Navy has expressed its satisfaction with the Barak-I’s performance and has given its full support for the next variant. Israeli efficiency is also a factor as compared to the traditional delays of dealing with the Russians. The joint-development offer was first made by Israel when Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash visited Tel Aviv in July 2004.
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=62510

TR1
06-11-2008, 03:37 PM
I was under the impression that these ships would be repeats of the previous vessels, but with BrahMos instead of Club. Must say, I really like this project, and the ships are impressive. on a 4000 ton hull, it packs 8 BrahMos Missiles, the Shtil-1 medium range SAM system with 27 reloads, Igla-1E close range SAMs, 100mm A-190E gun, two Kashatan modules (both with two 30mm gatling guns, and 32 point-defense missiles), an RBU-6000 rocket launcher, and 4 513mm torpedo tubes. Also has a hanger for one Kamov helicopter.

A very good mix of air, surface, and underwater defense.

TR1
06-11-2008, 03:39 PM
This is what i found from an India site

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=62510
what??? the OSA-M isnt used on any Indian Navy ships, lol.
The Shtil has much longer range than the current Barak missile system, which is really a point-defense system.

I know the Delhi ships have Barak, but I dont think the Talwar's will be receiving them. No need really, with Shtils, Kahstans, and Iglas.

TheArmenian
06-11-2008, 03:48 PM
The old RAJPUT (Kashin class) destroyers are receiving the BARAK. One of them became the first ship to receive the BRAHMOS>

I also don't think the TALWARS will be getting the BARAK as they already have modern SAMs like SHTIL and KASHTAN and IGLA.

Snoshi
06-11-2008, 03:48 PM
what??? the OSA-M isnt used on any Indian Navy ships, lol.
The Shtil has much longer range than the current Barak missile system, which is really a point-defense system.

I know the Delhi ships have Barak, but I dont think the Talwar's will be receiving them. No need really, with Shtils, Kahstans, and Iglas.

AFAIK Shtils will be replaced by Barak..

The Indian Navy has refused to take delivery of two stealth technology endowed warships INS Talwar and INS Trishul from Russia due to recurring faults in the main surface-to-air ****il missiles.

The delivery of the Krivak class missile frigates has already been delayed by almost a-year-and-a-half.

The first of the three stealth warships christened INS Talwar was to be delivered in the beginning of last year to be followed by the delivery of INS Trishul and INS Tabar at six-month intervals.

Two of the warships are ready while the third one INS Tabar is expected to be ready by July.

Naval Chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh was scheduled to visit Russia to induct two of the Krivak class missile frigates.

Earlier scheduled to leave for Moscow on June 4, Admiral Singh put off his visit by a week as the test-flights of the missiles failed in the presence of Indian Navy personnel.

The Russians had offered to rectify the faults after the ships are inducted into the Indian Navy, but Admiral Singh has repeatedly declared that India will not accept them unless all faults with the ****il missiles are rectified.

Of the 12 test-flights of the missiles, only seven have been successful, the sources said. India would be the second country after Russia to field these four-ton displacement warships, which are considered one of the most powerful and lethal in the world today.

Besides the ****il surface-to-air missiles, the warships are equipped with powerful ship-to-ship, ship-to-shore missiles and anti-submarine devices.
Sources did not say when India would take the delivery of the warships.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/12navy.htm

TR1
06-11-2008, 03:51 PM
Those are very old news. The Shtil has since performed quite well, all those defaults have been fixed. As I said, no reason at all to put Barak on these ships, it would be a step backwards if anything. Maybe when the new Barak system is developed, but thats a while from now.

Adux
06-11-2008, 03:55 PM
what??? the OSA-M isnt used on any Indian Navy ships, lol.
The Shtil has much longer range than the current Barak missile system, which is really a point-defense system.

I know the Delhi ships have Barak, but I dont think the Talwar's will be receiving them. No need really, with Shtils, Kahstans, and Iglas.


The problem with ****il is launcher, which is therefore a very bad system in comparison with Barak, especially barak-2 and barak-8(NG) being developed. ****ls have finsihed their prime. From what I have heard, Russians are a building a new model for Air-defence.

TheArmenian
06-11-2008, 03:57 PM
The problem with ****il is launcher, which is therefore a very bad system in comparison with Barak, especially barak-2 and barak-8(NG) being developed. ****ls have finsihed their prime. From what I have heard, Russians are a building a new model for Air-defence.

Yes, the new SHTIL will be vertical launch system. The newer TALWARs will probably have this model.

Afro-European
06-11-2008, 03:58 PM
You can't argue with success. If the customer comes back to purchase more, the Russian builders must have done something right.
Afro, didn't know you were in the business of buying Russian equipment p-)
I'm not criticizing Russia here mate.I'm just saying that Russia has(had)problems with delivering weapons on time.Remember CV Gorshkov.
I hope it won't be the case with this project.Great news for the Indian Navy.

Adux
06-11-2008, 04:04 PM
With all due respect,

****il is not a good weapon system in comparrison with the Barak

http://www.3dloft.net/index_sovr/shtil_phdotjpg


This how a barak is placed

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/saar45/saar45_barak1dotjpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Barak01dotjpg



Barak-8 being developed jointly with the Israelis' will have a range 70 kms, and will perform excellently alongside the MF-STAR

http://www.defense-update.com/images_new/mf-star_scenariodotjpg

Adux
06-11-2008, 04:04 PM
Aremenian,

I am not aware of the new Shtil project, do you have somemore info?

TR1
06-11-2008, 04:06 PM
Shtil is quite fine. As I mentioned, those problems have been fixed. If India desires it, they could have asked for the vertical launch Shtil developed. They didn't. That tells me something. They could also have asked for Barak in the 3 new Talwars. they did not. Shtil is also used in Sovremmeny destroyers in russia, and has quite a good record.

Also keep in mind the latest variants of Shtil use the missiles from the BUK-M1-1.

TheArmenian
06-11-2008, 04:32 PM
With all due respect,

****il is not a good weapon system in comparrison with the Barak


This how a barak is placed

My dear friend, don't make judgements based on placement of the system. The Vertical Launch System does not mean it is a better weapon necessarily. SHTIL is a medium range system while BARAK is a short range system. The VLS design, of course, has the advantage of being more compact, but not much else.


Barak-8 being developed jointly with the Israelis' will have a range 70 kms...


But it is not available yet. Who knows when it is going to be ready. While the new SHTIlL is ready.


... and will perform excellently alongside the MF-STAR


You seem to have a crystal ball that tells you the futurep-)


Aremenian,

I am not aware of the new Shtil project, do you have somemore info?

...and I am pleased to help you out :)

This is the new SHTIL that was shown last year.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4126/dsc1655fl4dotjpg


http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6118/dsc1651oh1dotjpg

Adux
06-11-2008, 04:36 PM
Aremenian,

Is the system operationalized or atleast is there a working prototype, i dont want to make this into east/west weapons debate. As far as I am concerned, we want all the weapons we can put our hands on, that is threat levels we are facing.

Anyways, Lost decade of 90's has affected the russians in R&D. Israeli's are by no means dudheads.

TheArmenian
06-11-2008, 04:47 PM
Aremenian,

Is the system operationalized or atleast is there a working prototype, i .

It is an upgrade of an existing system. It will be operational on your newer TALWARs. It may be on the Russian cruiser OCHAKOV which is being modernized as we chat (but it is unconfirmed news).


i dont want to make this into east/west weapons debate
Agreed, we don't want to derail this thread.


As far as I am concerned, we want all the weapons we can put our hands on, that is threat levels we are facing.

I like the Indian armed forces. You people are buying some of the best equipment.


Anyways, Lost decade of 90's has affected the russians in R&D
Unlike many other branches, Russian SAM R&D received significant funding even during the worst times.


Israeli's are by no means dudheads
They are definitly not dudhead. They may have smaller budgets and means, but they have some very capable people. BTW, some of their designers are Russian born Jews.

TR1
06-11-2008, 04:48 PM
I'm intersted in what anti-aircraft system the Gorshkov will employ. Would make sense if it was vertical Shtil, or perhaps the Kinzhal.

Snoshi
06-11-2008, 04:49 PM
I'm intersted in what anti-aircraft system the Gorshkov will employ. Would make sense if it was vertical Shtil, or perhaps the Kinzhal.

Or Barak-2 when it will become avalible

IDF_TANKER
06-11-2008, 04:53 PM
.........
They are definitly not dudhead. They may have smaller budgets and means, but they have some very capable people. BTW, some of their designers are Russian born Jews.

Judging by the number of engineers in the hi-tech industry I'd say about 30%.
The Israeli defence industry is unique though in some ways, but I'm really not going to start **** measuring here...

Andarius-Militarius
06-12-2008, 04:13 AM
I'm surprised how India with a military budget half that of Russia and an armed forces with as many personel as Russia can afford to purchase so many frigates when the Russian navy so far has gotten only one new corvette. The point is, our navy needs new ships and badly too, but priority of Russian shipbuilders seems to be directed at foreign customers like India and China. And reminding that there isn't much of a gap in our military budgets.

China: $59,000,000,000
Russia: $41,050,000,000
India: $26,500,000,000

Snoshi
06-12-2008, 05:31 AM
I'm surprised how India with a military budget half that of Russia and an armed forces with as many personel as Russia can afford to purchase so many frigates when the Russian navy so far has gotten only one new corvette. The point is, our navy needs new ships and badly too, but priority of Russian shipbuilders seems to be directed at foreign customers like India and China. And reminding that there isn't much of a gap in our military budgets.

China: $59,000,000,000
Russia: $41,050,000,000
India: $26,500,000,000
That is what i was talking about in my first post. Militaries around the world operate more sophisticated ships and aircraft then the Russian army.

link16
06-12-2008, 08:33 AM
how much is this ship? with all system mounted.

Adux
06-12-2008, 09:02 AM
I'm surprised how India with a military budget half that of Russia and an armed forces with as many personel as Russia can afford to purchase so many frigates when the Russian navy so far has gotten only one new corvette. The point is, our navy needs new ships and badly too, but priority of Russian shipbuilders seems to be directed at foreign customers like India and China. And reminding that there isn't much of a gap in our military budgets.

China: $59,000,000,000
Russia: $41,050,000,000
India: $26,500,000,000

Russians have some serious money going into Strategic programs like SSBN, 10,000 nuclear bombsetc etc.

Capital Expenditure gets extra funding, Salaries and other heads come under others than direct defence spending. Indian defence spending is at 1.99% of GDP which is one of the lowest in the world, especially considering our threat levels, Indian defence minister plans to double the amound. Indian Army is made to fight in two fronts at the same time. If we have conflict with Pakistan, we dont expect the Chinese to play, but we expect Pakistan to take advantage of any conflict with Chinese





Govt hints at doubling defence expenditure

NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding Pakistan's unilateral freeze on its defence spending and a request to others to follow, India on Tuesday hinted at doubling its defence expenditure as its current spend was much below the world average despite a booming economy.

Defence minister A K Antony on Tuesday said the modernization of armed forces was one of the top most priorities of the government. "Our defence budget is just 1.99% of the GDP, which is one of the lowest in the world. The ideal situation would be 3% of GDP, which is the global average," he added.

Antony's comments came just a day after Pakistan premier Yousuf Raza Gilani made a statement that his government had decided to reduce the defence budget and "hoped to see a reciprocal gesture from its neighbour for the sake of peace and prosperity of the region". Pakistan's current spending on defence is nearly 3% of its GDP at around Rs 275 billion.

Antony's remarks are not only a rebuff to Pakistan but seen as an assertion of the fact that India's strategic and defence preparedness are no more Pakistan oriented. The focus has shifted to China.

"Armed forces all over the world are modernizing and becoming technology intensive. We must adopt a joint approach, keeping in view the varied security challenges being faced by our nation," he said stressing on "integration of tri-service approach in thought and in action".

The defence minister said the country's most important challenge in the foreseeable future still remains the growing instability in its neighbourhood. He said India has continuously expressed serious concerns on cross-border terrorism and has reiterated the importance of Pakistan fulfiling its commitment against terrorism. Antony said it is yet to be seen whether the recently formed government in Pakistan is able to address issues of national security, religious fundamentalism and cross-border terrorism effectively.

He warned that forces within J&K and those outside, who do not want successful conduct of elections and peace in the state, will try their best to disrupt the democratic process. "We will have to keep a constant vigil and intensify our efforts to ensure conduct of free and fair elections in an atmosphere of peace," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Govt_hints_at_doubling_defence_expenditure/articleshow/3118305.cms

TR1
06-12-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm surprised how India with a military budget half that of Russia and an armed forces with as many personel as Russia can afford to purchase so many frigates when the Russian navy so far has gotten only one new corvette. The point is, our navy needs new ships and badly too, but priority of Russian shipbuilders seems to be directed at foreign customers like India and China. And reminding that there isn't much of a gap in our military budgets.

China: $59,000,000,000
Russia: $41,050,000,000
India: $26,500,000,000
take a look at the first page. I mentioned only some of the programmes under construction right now. Soviet levels of building? no. Significant levels of building? certainly

Lokos
06-12-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm surprised how India with a military budget half that of Russia and an armed forces with as many personel as Russia can afford to purchase so many frigates when the Russian navy so far has gotten only one new corvette.

The Russians maintain an enormous range of capabilities that together consume vast funds. Their navy, especially, is by far the least vital branch of the armed forces considering their natural national interests. It is only logical that the rate of development and modernizations remains low. But don't kid yourselves, the Russian navy is huge and extremely powerful in comparison to anything but the USN.

Lokos

Adux
06-12-2008, 02:36 PM
The Russians maintain an enormous range of capabilities that together consume vast funds. Their navy, especially, is by far the least vital branch of the armed forces considering their natural national interests. It is only logical that the rate of development and modernizations remains low. But don't kid yourselves, the Russian navy is huge and extremely powerful in comparison to anything but the USN.

Lokos

exactly, that said Russians have quite lot of work in mordernizing its forces. Anyways that is No **** Sherlock statement.

sektor
06-13-2008, 02:01 AM
That is what i was talking about in my first post. Militaries around the world operate more sophisticated ships and aircraft then the Russian army.

i think the answer to your statement was posted on the first page. Dont be so blind.

Adux
06-13-2008, 04:58 AM
Aremnian,

The Follow on Talwar Class, as well as our Shivalik Class P-17 FFG will have Shtil -1 VLS. While P-15A destroyers; Kolakatta Class and P-17A FFG will have MF-STAR Radar and Barak NG/8

bengalraider
06-13-2008, 03:18 PM
any news of the akulas india was supposed to get i heard the nerpa had started sea trials?