Lisbon Treaty Referendum. (Ireland june 12th) [Archive]

Jesse Kantstopolis

06-13-2008, 02:24 AM

The Treaty of Lisbon is the constitution that the Dutch and French rejected. The EU bureaucrat's don't want to let their populations vote on it because they know it will be rejected. It's very clear the Treaty of Lisbon will destroy national sovereignty and liberty in its member nations. Since the EU was just a steel trade agreement, its creators have been extremely deceptive. They started with economic and trade agreements with the intention of a European Union yet the whole time denied what their intentions were. Now they all member nations to give up their sovereignty so unelected secret working groups can make the laws of Europe. The EU is just the first step towards world government. Already there is a South American Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Union), an African Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union), the Prime Minister of Australia is promoting an Asian Union (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23835601-27197,00.html), the Security and Prosperity Partnership is following the same strategy the EU was created with to create a North American Union (http://wnd.com/index.php?pageId=58788), and all these unions would be merged if everything goes to plan.

End of Nations - EU Takeover & The Lisbon Treaty (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607&q=end+of+nations&ei=Wf5RSJ6pCpaYrAP9hPXADA)

The Real Face of The European Union (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2699800300274168460&q=european+union&ei=LwNSSODWA47yqQPl_Py7DA)

Tyranny is the oldest idea in history whereas Liberty is a new idea. The American Revolution proved to mankind that liberty is the key to prosperity and high standards of living among many other benefits.

CMNot

06-13-2008, 04:58 AM

Pooling national ideas into a international collective is a good experiment, a worthy experiment.

Forcing it through however at the expense of democratic freedoms is plainly wrong. For this and this alone, I hope the Irish register the No vote that I most likely would never have been given.

As for the actual constitution itself; only Europeans could come up with something so convoluted. Seeing as someone has already referenced the US, the constitution should have been thought up along the same lines. I.E., a lot more simple to understand. The problem the Yes camp have, is that none of them can understand it in its entirety either.

shamboss

06-13-2008, 05:17 AM

Thank you Ireland. If you succeed in saying "no", we'll have the perfect example of why sometimes people shouldn't let to vote and let experts decide; the bad side is that for some more time 490 million citizens will have a government not working properly... because 3 million decided that they dont want the EU to limit the number of children you can have to two.
please explain how is it not "working properly".Here I was thinking that the treaty was an attempt to make the eu work more efficently.Also it doesnt matter what the experts want its what the people want hence why its called a democracy.

dava

06-13-2008, 07:28 AM

The Treaty of Lisbon is the constitution that the Dutch and French rejected. The EU bureaucrat's don't want to let their populations vote on it because they know it will be rejected. It's very clear the Treaty of Lisbon will destroy national sovereignty and liberty in its member nations. Since the EU was just a steel trade agreement, its creators have been extremely deceptive. They started with economic and trade agreements with the intention of a European Union yet the whole time denied what their intentions were. Now they all member nations to give up their sovereignty so unelected secret working groups can make the laws of Europe. The EU is just the first step towards world government. Already there is a South American Union, an African Union, the Prime Minister of Australia is promoting an Asian Union, the Security and Prosperity Partnership is following the same strategy the EU was created with to create a North American Union, and all these unions would be merged if everything goes to plan.

They don't want their populations vote on it because the people are ignorant about such complex matter. You neither got a vote on whether the Guantanomo-inmates could get some more rights or not, now did you?
The no-camp is fearmongering like it has been explained, 'we will become lackeys', 'they will turn the EU into the matrix' and stuff like that.
The whole world dominance is so out of touch with reality, you should better see a shrink.
And actually, the EU wasnt just a steel trade agreement, there was no EU back then, the steel trade agreement was just what it was.

Tyranny is the oldest idea in history whereas Liberty is a new idea. The American Revolution proved to mankind that liberty is the key to prosperity and high standards of living among many other benefits.

Yes, Eu is about tyranny. America is so free it even has the highest prison population per capita!

Forcing it through however at the expense of democratic freedoms is plainly wrong. For this and this alone, I hope the Irish register the No vote that I most likely would never have been given.

How is it at the expense of democratic freedom? Are you taken every foreign policy decision in your country through a referendum?

CMNot

06-13-2008, 07:58 AM

How is it at the expense of democratic freedom? Are you taken every foreign policy decision in your country through a referendum?

What has foreign policy got to do with it?

The UK Labour Government was voted in with a promise on a referendum. We haven't had one, and I think we won't either.

If, as you allege, the population of Europe is too stupid to understand the treaty - then:

a. It (the treaty) either needs work to clarify and simplify and/or

b. Government's should educate their proletariat peoples about it.

Sato

06-13-2008, 08:30 AM

x2 on Dava's post.

The whole EU system is very complex and I bet 80%, if not higher, of Europeans can't even name 3 EU institutions and their respective jurisdictions (I know I can't).
The reason why it is so complex is, in my opinion, the precarious balance of national versus supranational sovereignty. This is due to a distinct lack of direction and commitment from it's members.

To often the EU is the big culprit when something goes wrong while all the credit goes to national politicians when it goes right. So the EU is a convenient target for politicians trying to avoid taking responsibility. Also, it's often portrayed as a zero-sum game; the EU at the expense of national governments, while I honestly think further EU integration is a win-win situation.

Also any referendum about the EU constitution/Lisbon treaty rarely is about the content of the document itself. Again, I bet that 95% of voters don't even know the ramifications of the Lisbon Treaty. Economic discontent, political games, national issues etc. dominate the voters' choice. This makes it an easy opposition/populist target trying to steal the masses' votes in national elections.

I'm all for further integration of the EU but it needs a clear goal, instead of political dancing to avoid clear commitments.

And by the way, we've come a long way and Europe still is one of the best places on this earth to live.

Macs.

06-13-2008, 09:00 AM

Well, I hope you atleast enjoy those 40 Billion Euros and the economic growth the EU gave you.

Dinivan

06-13-2008, 09:58 AM

If they are so ungrateful they should pay back all the money, and we should force them to stop acting as a free-rider by having low corporate taxes. It's really annoying that now they're a rich thanks to the EU, they are against it.

valtrex

06-13-2008, 10:13 AM

Just heard in the local Greek news that the Dublin area has voted predominantly NO but the final outcome of the Lisbon Treaty referendum appears to be too close to call. I also heard that France's foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner warned the Irish that a NO in the referendum means that Ireland chooses a new relationship with the EU (not full membership but a special relationship). Any more news by our fellow na hÉireannaigh friends?

NBDX

06-13-2008, 10:29 AM

*Thank you Irish Nation!

The small but GREAT Irish Nation stopped them! Hope that for a long time.
The whole project of unified Europeian Union as superstate is masonic project, first stage to World Government, if anybody dont see this, is blind.

Macs.

06-13-2008, 10:32 AM

They didn't stop anything, we just continue "without" them... For now.

Anomander

06-13-2008, 10:33 AM

Well, that was a disappointing result. And to all the EU-haters/dislikers: If not the Union was, where would our states be today with the economic boom in asia? Where would we be wthout the easier traveling, trading and free movement between the memberstates? The Union haven't decreased liberties, it has given us more.

Well, enough propaganda p-)

PS. If you don't want your country in the EU vote for a party/people that wants to bring it out, It's possible to exit the union peacefully you know, unlike the US for examplep-):)

muck

06-13-2008, 10:39 AM

Thank you Ireland. If you succeed in saying "no", we'll have the perfect example of why sometimes people shouldn't let to vote and let experts decide; the bad side is that for some more time 490 million citizens will have a government not working properly... because 3 million decided that they dont want the EU to limit the number of children you can have to two.
Ireland was once called the poorhouse of Europe. It's amazing that always those countries that took much benefit from the Union are blocking it in the end.

IronFinn

06-13-2008, 10:40 AM

Maybe those countries who have accepted the Lisbon treaty would then drop those who rejected it from EU and keep moving? Thats what I would do.

Basillicus

06-13-2008, 10:41 AM

This is so frustrating. Why don't they just GTFO of EU so that the rest of us could go forward, it's not like anyone is going to miss them.

Maybe those countries who have accepted the Lisbon treaty would then drop those who rejected it from EU and keep moving? Thats what I would do.

My thoughts exactly. It is impossible for the EU to function and develop into anything if it requires full approval from every small state. They should choose whether they want to be a part of this or then drop out for good, otherwise well be stuck in this stalemate forever since there's always populistic BS rant in some small country that manages to convince enough people to block all efforts.

Sato

06-13-2008, 10:44 AM

Sad news...

valtrex

06-13-2008, 10:46 AM

This is so frustrating. Why don't they just GTFO of EU so that the rest of us could go forward, it's not like anyone is going to miss them.
Nothing bad will happen. The rest of us (18 countries out of 27 have already ratified the Lisbon Treaty) will move on without the Irish

Stormz_STA

06-13-2008, 10:48 AM

The whole project of unified Europeian Union as superstate is masonic project, first stage to World Government, if anybody dont see this, is blind.

Now that's a funny post.

seer

06-13-2008, 10:52 AM

Thank You Ireland. :hug:

Basillicus

06-13-2008, 10:52 AM

The whole project of unified Europeian Union as superstate is masonic project, first stage to World Government, if anybody dont see this, is blind.

Maybe, who knows, but I don't see why it's necessarely such a bad thing. It's not like anyone is forced to join, and anyway this is a very slow process.

SBL

06-13-2008, 10:57 AM

Subscribing.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 11:04 AM

And to all the EU-haters/dislikers: If not the Union was, where would our states be today with the economic boom in asia? Where would we be wthout the easier traveling, trading and free movement between the memberstates?

Would be way ahead above today`s position. Especially without all this EU bureaucracy and idiotic detailed regulations. Easier travelling, trading and free movement has nothing to do with EU. Did you know something about
European Community, European Economic Area and Schengen Agreement? No, because you and all EU believers like you are disinformed by mainstream media. So, please first check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

and then comment.
European Community and European Union are not the same thing.

The Union haven't decreased liberties, it has given us more.
Yeah? Please check Lisbon Treaty in details. Lisbon Treaty is end of independent European states and start of the superstate.

PS. If you don't want your country in the EU vote for a party/people that wants to bring it out, It's possible to exit the union peacefully you know, unlike the US for example
No, after Lisbon Treaty, if any state would to exit EU, all other states have to say "yes"...

muck

06-13-2008, 11:14 AM

"Superstate"...What's so bad about closer relations of all member states? What's so bad about a simplification of all legal procedures the EU has to handle? What's so bad about simplified extradition processes? You can bet your ass that no dictatorship was awaiting you in case the treaty had been passed. The rejection of this treaty only shows how much power leftists have gained in the Union.
Hopefully the Irish feel comfy with the idea of being a second row member nation now. It was about time that the Poles and the British there got some company.

Stormz_STA

06-13-2008, 11:19 AM

Hopefully the Irish feel comfy with the idea of being a second row member nation now. It was about time that the Poles and the British there got some company.

And why do you say Poland is a second row member state? Care to explain?

CMNot

06-13-2008, 11:29 AM

It was about time that the Poles and the British there got some company.

Along with the Dutch and French, we are in a good position.

You have 2 of the 3 trillion $ Euro economies PLUS the only two nuclear Euro nations skirting around the edges. There's your two most powerful players, not in. Yeah, the EU will be a powerhouse - just minus the power :roll:

Mind you, that may in the future leave the Germans alone to bankroll the likes of Spain, Italy et al.

Compromise, gentlemen, is the keyword.

The EU as an economic and stability (read: peace) project has been a great success to this point. That however is arguably the easy part. The hard part comes now.

I want a 'constitution' that the lay man can actually read - not something helping keep an army of lawyers in paid work p-)

muck

06-13-2008, 11:32 AM

Compromise, gentlemen, is the keyword.

This treaty and its predecessors have been in a creation process for the last eleven years. There was a ****load of time to suggest compromises, fancy thing is only that the majority has agreed upon this treaty now. In my books it is no compromise to make the minority have equal weight to the majority.

Calanen

06-13-2008, 11:52 AM

LOL someone has edited the Wikipedia entry on the Treaty of Lisbon:

Treaty of Lisbon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#searchInput)

Dead.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon"

Calanen

06-13-2008, 11:55 AM

Also, for those who are big on being a Euroliberal or just have trouble getting to sleep, the whole 287 pages of tedium of the Treaty of Lisbon can be seen here:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/igcpdf/en/07/cg00/cg00014.en07.pdf

and really, unless you are an EU lawyer (not a lawyer in the EU, but one who specialises in EU law) who knows what it really means.

tsuri

06-13-2008, 11:55 AM

This can only mean two things.

1) The treaty is adopted on the back of the Irish
2) We go ahead with the Federation. Start from scratch and end this sharade. All major states except for the Brits are in favour of federalism anyways.

No, after Lisbon Treaty, if any state would to exit EU, all other states have to say "yes"...

Who tells you such lies? Article 50 clearly states:

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own
constitutional requirements.
There is a neccesity for a majority vote but this refers to the procedures that the Union has to take after a member state withdrew from it. Anyone can leave in peace. At least only in the Lisbon treaty, there are no such provisions in the older ones.

European Community, European Economic Area and Schengen Agreement? No, because you and all EU believers like you are disinformed by mainstream media. So, please first check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

and then comment.
European Community and European Union are not the same thing.

Wow you are a disinformed one. EEA is 100% governed by EU organs, covered by EU law and paid by EU money. EFTA is where you intergovernmentalists wanted to go. It was a colossal failure until it was assimilated into the wider EU.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 12:01 PM

"Superstate"...What's so bad about closer relations of all member states?

Closer relations are already here. There are no need for any closest relations.

What's so bad about a simplification of all legal procedures the EU has to handle?
Simplification? Any next EU legal procedures are more and more complicated.

What's so bad about simplified extradition processes?
These things are not about extradition. Simplified extradition is additional thing to the fundamental matter: any court in any state in EU can send you to jail and then you will be extraditioned to this state in case of such "crimes" like "antisemitism", "racism", "xenophobia", "crime of hate", "homophobia"...

You can bet your ass that no dictatorship was awaiting you in case the treaty had been passed.

Oh really? After this will be only one dictatorship, dictatorship of EU. From the other side, any nationally oriented government which will to plan any independent moves, especially plan of exit from EU, will be easy named "dictatorship" government... And then "peacefull forces" of EU will be send to this state for "re-establishing democracy"...

fish&chips

06-13-2008, 12:09 PM

Oh really? After this will be only one dictatorship, dictatorship of EU. From the other side, any nationally oriented government which will be to plan any independent moves, especially plan of exit from EU, will be easilly named "dictatorship" government... And then "peacefull forces" of EU will be send to this state for "re-establishing democracy"...

Last time I checked, the EU was not somewhere in the Middle East or Africa.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 12:25 PM

Last time I checked, the EU was not somewhere in the Middle East or Africa.

Very fun. Check history, f.g American Civil War between "Union" and "Confederacy". Confederacy had all rights to legally and peacefully exit from Union. What was the end?

muck

06-13-2008, 12:35 PM

These things are not about extradition. Simplified extradition is additional thing to the fundamental matter: any court in any state in EU can send you to jail and then you will be extraditioned to this state in case of such "crimes" like "antisemitism", "racism", "xenophobia", "crime of hate", "homophobia"...
Counterquestion: What's so bad about making discrimination punishable?

After this will be only one dictatorship, dictatorship of EU. From the other side, any nationally oriented government which will to plan any independent moves, especially plan of exit from EU, will be easy named "dictatorship" government... And then "peacefull forces" of EU will be send to this state for "re-establishing democracy"...
And you have clear evidence for this development to come, haven't you?

Just the usual rubbish spread by anyone with an anti-EU agenda. I repeat myself and want to stress hereby that those countries that have taken the most benefit from the Union are surprisingly the ones most opposing it. Oh, the irony.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 12:37 PM

and really, unless you are an EU lawyer (not a lawyer in the EU, but one who specialises in EU law) who knows what it really means.

And this is done not by coincidence but by reason.

muck

06-13-2008, 12:39 PM

...And for what reasion? To maliciously confuse all EU citizens? Seriously, take your frigging tinfoil hat off.

SHAM

06-13-2008, 12:50 PM

The results are in, no suprise at the result really considering the governments failure to explain what changes there would be to the consititution in a consititutional referendum.
Back to the negotiating table.

muck

06-13-2008, 12:52 PM

Some suggest to reestablish a totally new EU. Not the worst idea, me thinks.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 01:09 PM

Counterquestion: What's so bad about making discrimination punishable?

Because all these a.m. discriminations are not real discriminations but things covered by "political correctness", things done by words not by acts, things non-measurable. And of course "they" will have last word if something is "antisemitic", racist" "homophobic" etc. even withouth any reasons...

And you have clear evidence for this development to come, haven't you?
Yes. But it is based on all my knowledge and expierences. I cant translate all it to few sentences.

I repeat myself and want to stress hereby that those countries that have taken the most benefit from the Union are surprisingly the ones most opposing it. Oh, the irony.
Nope. You say exactly the same what propaganda says. Wrong. Ireland had economic boom not due to EU but due to investments of abt 20 mln Irish-Americans in related years. Poland have taken "illusoric" benefits from EU. In years 1994-2004 Poland, before was member of EU, due to various preparation procedures of EU lost dozens of billions USD to EU... The strange truth is that EU* have taken more benefits from Poland`s membership than Poland.

* Mainly Germany, where abt 400.000-700.000 or even more places of job were established only due tu export for Poland.

muck

06-13-2008, 01:32 PM

Because all these a.m. discriminations are not real discriminations but things covered by "political correctness", things done by words not by acts, things non-measurable.
I agree the boundaries may be unclear. However, I fully support any attempt to make discrimination punishable.

Yes. But it is based on all my knowledge and expierences. I cant translate all it to few sentences.
As long as clear evidence for your statement is absent I shall reserve the right to disregard it.

Nope. You say exactly the same what propaganda says. Wrong. Ireland had economic boom not due to EU but due to investments of abt 20 mln Irish-Americans in related years. Poland have taken "illusoric" benefits from EU. In years 1994-2004 Poland, before was member of EU, due to various preparation procedures of EU lost dozens of billions USD to EU... The strange truth is that EU have taken more benefits from Poland`s membership than Poland.
Whilst I have to check on the latter thing you've said - and I strongly doubt that it is right -, I clearly reject the first statement as simply wrong. Well, maybe it's just me, but I can't imagine that both these investions exceeded the sum of 40.651.000.000 € - that being the money Ireland got from the EU - and that this sum shall not have played an essential role in making Ireland stand on its own feet again.
That said, it may just be me. p-)

fish&chips

06-13-2008, 01:43 PM

Very fun. Check history, f.g American Civil War between "Union" and "Confederacy". Confederacy had all rights to legally and peacefully exit from Union. What was the end?

Could it be that your vast knowledge and experience is limited to 19th century policies? Tell me, which capable military power in the EU would even care about a campaign to bring any stray country back into the EU? France and Germany, the well-known Eurowussies? They'd rather cheer because less members means less net expenses for them. Britain maybe? Oh, wait, they are quite euro-sceptical themselves... Looks to me that you are the one who got affected by some sort of propaganda here.

NBDX

06-13-2008, 02:17 PM

the sum of 40.651.000.000 € - that being the money Ireland got from the EU - and that this sum shall not have played an essential role in making Ireland stand on its own feet again.

May be, if your datas are correct, may be. I didnt know that. But still it is any argument in this discussion. Germany, your home country is of course the state which pay more for EU than any other EU state... But from the other side , it seems that Germany have the leading role in all these EU unification efforts, not withouth own long-term planes...So, it is still only part of greater plan...

Mat_fr

06-13-2008, 02:24 PM

ach ! ze germans are going to invade europe ! i knew that !

:roll:

mat

CMNot

06-13-2008, 02:27 PM

Some suggest to reestablish a totally new EU. Not the worst idea, me thinks.

This is the best idea in my humble opinion.

Integration so far has gone pretty well, particularly economically.

If they want a true 'Union' along the lines of integrating states under a European Government, they should start with simplicity in mind.

When you look at the cosmopolitan nature of Europe, the only type of Government that will work will be a very de-centralised one. This can defer direct Governance of nationals to what we presently call our own national Governments.

If Europe truly wants anything like an implementable common defence policy, it needs integration.

Yes the system of Government is extremely similar to the American model - but liberal Democracy in its purest form is the dominant global ideology. Live under a liberal constitution that will limit the power our 'great leaders' have available over us.

futurepilot2004

06-13-2008, 02:35 PM

The results are disappointing. There were loads of factors but I`d say the main one was that the electorate felt that it had been just assumed by the government here and brussels that we`d pass it no questions asked. The yes side was ahead a few days ago but idiotic comments like those of the french foreign minister that Ireland would face dire consequences if we voted no really helped the no side. The last thing we are going to respond well to is threats.
Hopefully if there is a second referendum he`ll keep his mouth shut.

Relict

06-13-2008, 02:36 PM

I can tell only one...
GOD BLESS IRELAND!

muck

06-13-2008, 02:41 PM

NBDX

06-13-2008, 02:42 PM

Could it be that your vast knowledge and experience is limited to 19th century policies? Tell me, which capable military power in the EU would even care about a campaign to bring any stray country back into the EU? France and Germany, the well-known Eurowussies? They'd rather cheer because less members means less net expenses for them. Britain maybe? Oh, wait, they are quite euro-sceptical themselves... Looks to me that you are the one who got affected by some sort of propaganda here.

Do you really believe that there are now independent military powers in EU and NATO ?

OK, lets wait few months, maybe 1-2 years, all should be clarified.

muck

06-13-2008, 02:43 PM

Do you really believe that there are now independent military powers in EU and NATO ?

OK, lets wait few months, maybe 1-2 years, all should be clarified.
So what...? About what the heck are you talking?

futurepilot2004

06-13-2008, 02:44 PM

I Well, maybe it's just me, but I can't imagine that both these investions exceeded the sum of 40.651.000.000 € - that being the money Ireland got from the EU - and that this sum shall not have played an essential role in making Ireland stand on its own feet again.

Not going to deny that but Ireland has received 60 billion and paid back 20 billion so far since 1973!! that equates to just over a billion a year. Considering our economy is worth about 180 billion a year thats not a massive amount. We`re also no longer receiving more money then we give.

And the main reason for our economic boom is our low tax rates.

V.I.D.

06-13-2008, 02:47 PM

Germany hardly takes a leading role in the EU considering that its influence could be much bigger. Proportionately to its population and its contribution to the common budget, Germany has the least number of representatives and votes. German is no official working language of the Union.

Well, why don't you just leave the union then? There has to be something that Germans like about this project. On the side note, it's so good to see that Irish cannot be blackmailed and hopefully this is the beginning of the end of EU. No more interfering in other countries' businesses, long live Eire! :hug:

futurepilot2004

06-13-2008, 02:51 PM

Well, why don't you just leave the union then? There has to be something that Germans like about this project. On the side note, it's so good to see that Irish cannot be blackmailed and hopefully this is the beginning of the end of EU. No more interfering in other countries' businesses, long live Eire! :hug:

this is the thing, ireland has been and still is very pro-europe. Even the leaders of the no campaign are saying that this was not a vote against the EU, it was a vote against been told to shut up and vote yes or else, as I said earlier, people rarely respond well to threats.

muck

06-13-2008, 02:54 PM

Have another vote, I'd say. The turnout was ridiculously low and could be regarded as not representative for the Irish people by every more serious political scientist.

Well, why don't you just leave the union then?
I was only responding to the wrong statement that Germany would have too much influence on European affairs.

Not going to deny that but Ireland has received 60 billion and paid back 20 billion so far since 1973!!
60-20=40

meva

06-13-2008, 03:00 PM

No means no! Nuff said.

futurepilot2004

06-13-2008, 03:05 PM

Have another vote, I'd say. The turnout was ridiculously low and could be regarded as not representative for the Irish people by every more serious political scientist.

I was only responding to the wrong statement that Germany would have too much influence on European affairs.

60-20=40

Yeah thanks, I can count. 40 billion over 35 years = just over a billion a year ie about 0.6% of
economys value.

Irish

06-13-2008, 03:25 PM

IMHO, It was our Governments Fault for not explaining the treaty in lay mans terms..The normal Irish Joe on the street has no time for their terminology's and vast texts that are this Treaty.

People simple didn't understand what it meant..I certainly didn't, which is why I and a number of my Buddies Said NO.

Irish People are as Pro European as the Next. This Treaty represented signing a contract that you couldn't read..and The Irish People were not going to do that.

Anomander

06-13-2008, 04:01 PM

No, after Lisbon Treaty, if any state would to exit EU, all other states have to say "yes"...No... From article 49A

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 188 N(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

The new relationship with the secceding state have to be ratified by the parliament and the council, not the seccesion itself.

Wachmistrz

06-13-2008, 04:34 PM

In Poland, unfortunately, we didn't have the possibility to vote, so thank you Irish people for voting on our behalf.

God save Ireland.
Erin go bragh!

Jesse Kantstopolis

06-13-2008, 06:05 PM

Ireland was once called the poorhouse of Europe. It's amazing that always those countries that took much benefit from the Union are blocking it in the end.

This statement is a good example of a post hoc fallacy.

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this", is a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#logical_fallacy) (of the questionable cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questionable_cause) variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy *** hoc ergo propter hoc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation), in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality). The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection. Most familiarly, many superstitious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition) beliefs and magical thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking) arise from this fallacy.
The form of the post hoc fallacy can be expressed as follows:

A occurred, then B occurred.
Therefore, A caused B."

So your argument goes, because the EU gave Ireland money, the Irish economy boomed. It also appears your begging the question, implying that everyone excepts your hypothesis. Maybe it was Ireland's economic freedom that resulted in the Celtic Tiger? Maybe the Celtic Tiger was just an allusion of wealth creation? For example, rising home values was more a sign of monetary debasement than wealth creation. That seems to be true in Ireland as it is fact here in America.

By no means do I intend on being rude or insulting, but rather I think this subject is an important issue to discuss. I can't say I disagree with your contentions that maybe Ireland should leave the EU. Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland are doing just fine on their own and there are no barriers to trade with the EU. My feeling is that rampant inflation in America and Europe will change the face of this discussion all together.

End Of Nations - EU Takeover & The Lisbon Treaty (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607&q=end+of+nations&ei=kuBSSPPyOJXCqAOx7P2qDA)

meva

06-13-2008, 08:48 PM

This whole process reminds me of a Lewis Black joke about the US being a country of two parties. The party of no ideas and the party of bad ideas.

First you have the EU bureucracy elite representing the party of bad ideas coming up with this gem: "Hey let's make a treaty, no wait, a CONSTITUTION which will be thousands of pages of legal babble. Somewhere in those pages we will put into effect this constitution creating a state with all the hallmarks of an independent state. Head-of-state, foreign secretary, no veto for member states and so on and so forth. Heck, lets even have a national hymn. This will of course mean that the member states will de-facto lose their independence. Yes! Let's do that!"

The part of EU elite representing the party of no ideas responded with this:"------"
Their silence was understandable though, they were busy hiring their wife and kids as their taxpayer paid "secretaries" and other important things.
(They could have said something about such an act being illegal in many countries, even treason. Or that no member of EU ever signed up for such an development and that citizens of the countries in the EU do not want such constitution. But that would have been democratic. And we all know that is sooo twentieth century.)

So the EU constitution came about, but the bureucrats in Brussels had forgotten that despite their progression beyond democracy some backward member states, independent and sovereign countries that they are, still were clinging on to those archaic ideas. So referendums came about.

Party of bad ideas, foreigners mainly, decided to tell these independent countries and their people how to vote. Vote the right way, the party line. Using arguments like, "Well you just have to." "Don't you like Europe? Are you not european?" "We need this against China." "We worked many hours on this, like many meetings and such, so you just have to."

Party of no ideas was out for lunch.

Referendums were held and people told Brussels to take their constitution and shove it up their a**. So to speak.

Party of bad ideas was dumbfounded. "Whaaat!? They rejected our bad idea! How can this be, it was such a bad idea!", they cried.
"And what where those national politicos, those local minded idiots even thinking giving the people a voice in the first place!"

All hope seemed lost for Brussells elite and United States of Europe.

But alas, the other half of the elite, the lazier and slower one came to the rescue.

"Don't worry", they said. You have a ****ty idea and we can make it ****tier.
"First lets continue with the ratifications in those places where this stupid notion of democracy is not as strong anymore as if nothing has happened. This will give us ammo for round two. The battle is lost but the war is just beginning. But steer clear of places where we will get our as*es handed to us, like Great Britan. Well focus on them later."

And so the party of no ideas waited until members which wouldn't hold a referendum had ratificated the constitution and then they held a grand meeting. With a lot of fanfare they proclaimed: "Now see this! 297 million people have ratificated the constitution! Party of bad ideas was almost right, just few stubborn idiots opposed them! With this great support we can carry on with our work!"

Constant nagging about democracy, and especially the threat(yes that's right, people in the eu countries are a threat to the great plan of Brusels elite) of another referendums forced the party of no ideas to few minor concessions.

Constitution then got to second round of ratifications, but this time there would be no referendums. Party of no ideas explains"Well see, we changed the name. It's no longer a constitution, it's now an agreement. See? We also moved around a few commas and changed the date, used a different printer and so on. You see now? No need for a referendum!"

It was almost perfect if it was not for those backward Irish with their crazy laws about asking the people if they are willing to give away their independence or not. The irish are funny like that.

We all know what happened with that. Again!!

Given the lives lost and huge sufferings endured to protect the independence of Great Britain, France, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium and many others, some people think we all should be funny like that.

It is interesting to see which party now comes on top in the Brussells power struggle. Party of bad ideas has been already making a lot of noise with comments like:"Well, uhhhmmm, we will go ahead anyway." and "Can't those stupid focks just vote the right way. How many referendums we gotta endure" and my personal favourite"Maybe we just have to kick the irish out. Those ungrateful idiots."

So at this point the wise money is on bad ideas but we have seen before the no ideas coming out on top in the end.

muttbutt

06-13-2008, 10:42 PM

As someone who voted yes, I can understand some of the no camp, not the neutrality/locking up 3 year old's/or Satan in the parliament lot but some, comments by some in Europe that we'd be "the first to be punished for a no vote"...frankly Irish people don't like being pushed like that.....they pushed back.

unfortunately for me now this vote gives Sinn Fein some semblence of political currency after their general elcetion drubbing, so now I have Gerry Adams, a man who can't even vote here, telling me what to do.....great!

Sevryn

06-13-2008, 10:54 PM

EU shot itself in the foot, fact of the matter is that the European Union is no longer the representative of the european people, it adopted globalist ideas that are usurping and destroying European civilization.

EU is a joke, it may call itself European Union but it's meaning is far from reality. EU's goal is not a united Europe based around european people or their ideas, their goal is to completely MERGE NOT ONLY EUROPE BUT ALSO MIDDLE EAST AND AFRICA into one single state.

To do this EU will have to destroy European Civilization and they are happily doing it by promoting mass immigration, whom they give benefits to and encourage them to have 5 6 7 kids while denying benefits to Europeans and openly threatening every european ethnic group and telling them that they have to stop having babies.

It's funny to see that prior to all this all those beurorats thought they all had it in the bag, and because of that they let their guard down and started spilling their beans about the Meditarrean Union and it's eventual absorbtion into the EU.

European Union needs to revaluate itself, it needs to decide it's future and hopefully it will decide to stay European rather then sell out its people and culture to the global elite who want to destroy every country, language, religion and ethnicity.

joka

06-13-2008, 11:01 PM

How many referendums we gotta endure" and my personal favourite"Maybe we just have to kick the irish out. Those ungrateful idiots."

There is no option for kicking anyone out, but obviously if Ireland now finds itself in an union that is alien and the direction it is heading towards as unthinkable, the question arises, why is it a member? Wouldn't it be better for everyone involved that we go our separate ways and part as friends?

As for the complexity of the treaties, legally speaking The EU is an international organization of independent member states, as long as this holds true it will have treaties to match that.

Billy No Mates

06-14-2008, 06:26 AM

but obviously if Ireland now finds itself in an union that is alien and the direction it is heading towards as unthinkable, the question arises, why is it a member? Wouldn't it be better for everyone involved that we go our separate ways and part as friends?.

Why should they have to leave? does 'the union' now have an impetus of its own regardless of how these referendums turn out shouldnt the union change course if the members say so?,the Irish are not the only ones to have said NO recently but despite it the politicos will push on and the democracy deficit caused will kill the union more surely than the concerns of the member states expressed in referendums ever will .

Dinivan

06-14-2008, 07:09 AM

May be, if your datas are correct, may be. I didnt know that. But still it is any argument in this discussion. Germany, your home country is of course the state which pay more for EU than any other EU state... But from the other side , it seems that Germany have the leading role in all these EU unification efforts, not withouth own long-term planes...So, it is still only part of greater plan...

If you knew a bit of history you would know that actually the germans were hard to convince to even create the ECC, so no big plan of Germany to control all Europe.

Not going to deny that but Ireland has received 60 billion and paid back 20 billion so far since 1973!! that equates to just over a billion a year. Considering our economy is worth about 180 billion a year thats not a massive amount. We`re also no longer receiving more money then we give.

And the main reason for our economic boom is our low tax rates.
Oh c'mon, Ireland has been --by far-- the largest net receiver of funds per capita, so don't say they haven't played any role. What's more, the economy is NOW worth 180 billion, but when you started receiving money Ireland what a ****hole. And if taxes have played a role, is because you've been benefitting from having access to a 490 million citizens market, the EU let you go so that you could develop, but that's called "free-riding". Without the EU, no matter how low you taxes were you would still be a bunch of poors.

IMHO, It was our Governments Fault for not explaining the treaty in lay mans terms..The normal Irish Joe on the street has no time for their terminology's and vast texts that are this Treaty.

People simple didn't understand what it meant..I certainly didn't, which is why I and a number of my Buddies Said NO.
And what's strange about it? What I don't understand is why did you have to make a referendum. Or would you also make a referendum on the design of a nuclear power plant? I would understand that a normal Irish Joe didn't have any clue on the plans of such a complicated technology, and sometimes laws are no different from these complicated plans, that's why we have experts who elaborate and vote on them and all we can do is trust them and give them our vote.

By no means do I intend on being rude or insulting, but rather I think this subject is an important issue to discuss. I can't say I disagree with your contentions that maybe Ireland should leave the EU. Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland are doing just fine on their own and there are no barriers to trade with the EU. My feeling is that rampant inflation in America and Europe will change the face of this discussion all together.
False. Iceland is in the middle of a crisis with 15% inflation and fears that their currency will collapse, for now they've been saved thanks to receiving loans from other European central banls. Norway prospers thanks to oil. I live in Switzerland, and apart from the fact that even if the country is not the EU is has a lot of agreements that try to simulate it (norway does not need such agreements, as they are in the EEA), the country is being left behind in economic terms, the only reason for which we still stay ahead is for our past, but we're being surpassed by many EU states.

PS: and then some wonder why many EU citizens didn't want the expansion to the East.

Macs.

06-14-2008, 08:12 AM

CMNot

06-14-2008, 08:16 AM

Gee, the Germans sure have a man-sized European hard-on p-)

joka

06-14-2008, 08:30 AM

Why should they have to leave? does 'the union' now have an impetus of its own regardless of how these referendums turn out shouldnt the union change course if the members say so?,the Irish are not the only ones to have said NO recently but despite it the politicos will push on and the democracy deficit caused will kill the union more surely than the concerns of the member states expressed in referendums ever will .

The Union's impetus is will of it's member states, if 26 countries want to implement these reforms one can safely say that is the direction the union is heading towards. If Ireland finds this direction uncomfortable, then why is it a member?

The Irish may have very well delivered a blow that is the beginning of the end of The EU, there a few ways out of this that doesn't include a split of some sort. Ireland will go down in history as the asshole of Europe.

dava

06-14-2008, 08:40 AM

Well, i guess the countries who signed the treaty will continue with it. Eventually, the countries who shot it down will come back with their tail between their legs and beg to join.
A bit like what happened to the brits in the early EU.

CMNot

06-14-2008, 08:44 AM

Jeeesus...

The Irish are the only nation who have asked their citizens (you know, those little people that are unfortunate enough to live beneath Governments) to ratify the treaty. They haven't.

The Irish have to take this course of action; its constitutional. There is no other way for Irish ratification - the rights of the individual are enshrined in a constitution. A liberal ideal that most of us in Europe don't have extended to us.

Finally, this talk of 'well if they don't want to sign in why don't they get the **** out' is...well, I would get more intelligence being sat in a room full of retards. The argument is as logical as suggesting that 5th generation black people should 'go back home' when they criticice our - and their - cultures.

This treaty was a messy compromise from the start. Time to go back to the drawing board and stick to some solid, liberal, plausible, workable ideals. It would be a bonus if they actually make it readable to.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-14-2008, 08:49 AM

The Union's impetus is will of it's member states, if 26 countries want to implement these reforms one can safely say that is the direction the union is heading towards. If Ireland finds this direction uncomfortable, then why is it a member?

Why are you/they changing the story. Previously the 'party line' of the freedom hating Europhiles was that the treaty would only be ratified if ALL members ratified it. W@nkers

The Irish may have very well delivered a blow that is the beginning of the end of The EU, there a few ways out of this that doesn't include a split of some sort. Ireland will go down in history as the saviours of Europe.

Fixed it for you.

joka

06-14-2008, 09:11 AM

Why are you/they changing the story. Previously the 'party line' of the freedom hating Europhiles was that the treaty would only be ratified if ALL members ratified it. W@nkers

Ah yes, You/They, that single conscience collective. :roll:
Yes obviously the nature of an union of independent member states is that everyone has to agree. I'm simply asking Ireland recognize it's responsibility towards the other member states and take it upon itself to leave the union towards which it has such contempt. Why remain a member of something that you don't like?

Fixed it for you.

I can't help but see some similarities between your attitude, the Irish outcome and the destruction of Penn Station in New York. You'll probably disagree just for the sake of it, but I really don't care.

"Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves. Even when we had Penn Station, we couldn’t afford to keep it clean. We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."
- "Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times editorial, October 30, 1963

If Europeans are too blind to see the good the EU has brought them, than the decay of it is exactly what we deserve.

Herman the II

06-14-2008, 09:13 AM

The Irland-votum shows the main problem of the current Eu, one little country can slow down/hinder the progress of the 26 other members that are willing to move on towards a more democratic and acting capable EU.
Now the opposition in Ireland has to name the problems and has to make a proposal for a solution, unfortunately they wont be able to do so as the opposition in Ireland is a mixture of political clowns, demagogues and IRA supporters...

There wont be any new negotiations and bargains, the Lisbon treaty is already the "plan B", if you are not willing to accept the opinion of the majority you are free to leave.

daily666

06-14-2008, 09:19 AM

I'm just thinking what kind of bashing Poland would get for doing the same. I already see those headlines "Those ungratefull Poles kill the Lison Treaty" .

Irish

06-14-2008, 09:25 AM

a_very_ex_STAB

06-14-2008, 09:35 AM

Ah yes, You/They, that single conscience collective. :roll:
Yes obviously the nature of an union of independent member states is that everyone has to agree. I'm simply asking Ireland recognize it's responsibility towards the other member states and take it upon itself to leave the union towards which it has such contempt. Why remain a member of something that you don't like?

I can't help but see some similarities between your attitude, the Irish outcome and the destruction of Penn Station in New York. You'll probably disagree just for the sake of it, but I really don't care.

"Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves. Even when we had Penn Station, we couldn’t afford to keep it clean. We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."
- "Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times editorial, October 30, 1963

If Europeans are too blind to see the good the EU has brought them, than the decay of it is exactly what we deserve.

Please explain exactly what good the EU has brought anyone - apart from a small coterie of bureaucrats and has-been politicians who either failed or couldn't make it in their home countries.

As for Ireland leaving because its' people voted against the treaty maybe you should ask yourself what would happen if the people were actually consulted in the other member states. I guess you might have to face a very unpleasant realization then so you won't want to do it.:)

Dinivan

06-14-2008, 09:41 AM

^^ no, not well said. I very much respect the desire of irish to have more direct democracy and vote on this kind of issues. But it's obvious they don't care about it, cos they have not read the treaty; I bet many of those who say it's complicated have not even opened it. Not only that but turnover was pretty low. So what kind of legitimacy has this referendum? It's the opinion of lazy and ignorants, why should the EU be stopped for you then? Trust me, if all the people that had voted (or let's say the majority, with that it would already be enough) had cared and read it or got informed about the treaty and then the "no" option had won, I wouldn't criticize the Irish; but ruining years of work because an old woman thinks their grandsons will not be able to have more than 2 kids if the treaty is passed is simply an insult to the rest of Europeans, and that's how I feel, insulted by the Irish. Let's just wait and you will see what I mean, now the parties that asked for the "no" should agree on a proposal to solve the problem, but it won't happen because they are extremes, people that support IRA etc and they don't have real reasons to say no, they're just populist. A bunch of populist and ignorants stopping Europe? no way, go and join the EEA if you want; about the money you've received... let's call it "sunk costs".

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 09:42 AM

Thank you Ireland! Many Poles are grateful!

We have defeated nazis, we will defeat EU bureaucrats.

GOD BLESS IRELAND!

CMNot

06-14-2008, 09:48 AM

Please explain exactly what good the EU has brought anyone

Peace, stability and economic growth/prosperity.

As for Ireland leaving because its' people voted against the treaty maybe you should ask yourself what would happen if the people were actually consulted in the other member states. I guess you might have to face a very unpleasant realization then so you won't want to do it.

Here in lies the rub...the Irish merely reacted the way I feel many European citizens would.

Trying to integrate the very lands that bore Nationalism is, and will never be, easy. It does not mean that it is not worth pursuing.

@ Dinivan. The treaty, is simply, far too complex for what it is. The US constitution took fractions of the time to draft, write and ratify - and has spawned the most successful culmination of pre-19th Century European thought. And to boot, you can actually go and sit and read it - and understand it! Considering we Europeans gave the world the greatest minds of Enlightenment, such as de Secondat, it is shameful that our modern breed of bottom feeding ministers bring us this legal dribble.

Calling the Irish unintelligent because they don't understand it adds absolutely nothing to the argument. The average Irishman has the same comprehension of it as the average Scot, Spaniard or Italian. It is a classic case of Brussels making something far, far more complicated than it already is.

And as for those claiming it is the 'end of Europe'. Please, give us a break. Nothing is different today than it was yesterday, last week or last year. The bureaucrats just need to start again.

Dinivan

06-14-2008, 09:54 AM

Thank you Ireland! Many Poles are grateful!

GOD BLESS IRELAND!

Fortunately, from what I know (when speaking with poles), most of Poles are not grateful, only the most catholic conservatives. And fortunately too you don't pretend to talk for all Poland as many of those catholics tend to do. Yeh, god bless whatever; luckly my dog, called God, it's here and he doesn't seem to share your opinion of blessing people so easily; that might also explain why thousands of people were killed not long ago by an earthquake or a tsunami, as my little dog looks like he doesn't give a damn about anything but food and me :)

Billy No Mates

06-14-2008, 09:57 AM

The Irish may have very well delivered a blow that is the beginning of the end of The EU, there a few ways out of this that doesn't include a split of some sort. Ireland will go down in history as the asshole of Europe.

The Irish have done nothing of the sort despite the hysterical reaction their referendum has prompted from some Europhiles,a reaction that ironically prompted the NO vote in the first place the warning of dire consequences if the European pleds have the temerity to vex the patrician class who warn its their way or no way .

Macs.

06-14-2008, 09:57 AM

Thank you Ireland! Many Poles are grateful!

We have defeated nazis, we will defeat EU bureaucrats.

GOD BLESS IRELAND!

rofl:cantbeli:

Ignorance is bliss.

BTW: It's not as clear as some of you make it. It was pretty close, 53,4% no and 46,6% yes.

Anyway. All this arguring doesn't lead nowhere. The EU will continue, no matter with or without Ireland.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 09:58 AM

Fortunately, from what I know (when speaking with poles), most of Poles are not grateful

Is that true? So why won't we make referendum?

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 10:01 AM

Anyway. All this arguring doesn't lead nowhere. The EU will continue, no matter with or without Ireland.

Yes, yes, I heard this before, III Reich will stand a 1000 years or something.

daily666

06-14-2008, 10:02 AM

Is that true? So why won't we make referendum?

The support in Poland in favour of the treaty was close to 60% when it was ratified by the Parliament. Of course you may have other opinion just don't thank Ireland in the name of whole Polish population, and in this case, me.

Dinivan

06-14-2008, 10:05 AM

Is that true? So why won't we make referendum?

Apart from what Daily666 says, the Irish case shows you can't make a referendum on these things. You know most people wouldn't read it and would simply vote for what they imagine the treaty contains. That's why we also don't ask people to read the plans for a nuclear plant and then vote whether they want it to be built or not.

Macs.

06-14-2008, 10:06 AM

As for Ireland leaving because its' people voted against the treaty maybe you should ask yourself what would happen if the people were actually consulted in the other member states. I guess you might have to face a very unpleasant realization then so you won't want to do it.:)

It's pretty easy, actually. Last time I checked all EU member countries were having democracies where the people decide who they vote for.

So if you think the Lisbon Treaty is not the way to go, or that the EU as a whole isn't something for your country - VOTE A PARTY/POLITICAN THAT IS GETTING YOUR COUNTRY OUT OF THE EU AND STOP WHINING.

If that party/politican isn't getting enough votes i.e. most of your countrymen don't agree with it... You have to live with it, or go to another country.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 10:06 AM

The support in Poland in favour of the treaty was close to 60% when it was ratified by the Parliament. Of course you may have other opinion just don't thank Ireland in the name of whole Polish population, and in this case, me.

OK, so why shouldn't we make a referendum?

And i think that I ****ounced myself clearly, Many Poles are grateful!

Sato

06-14-2008, 10:34 AM

OK, so why shouldn't we make a referendum?

And i think that I ****ounced myself clearly, Many Poles are grateful!

Because the contents and consequences of this treaty are very complex. This is partly the fault of overzealous bureaucrats and partly the fault of lazy people who don't even bother to take the time actually reading up on what they will vote on.

The fact that it is so complex also implicates that instead of the average EU citizen making up his or her own mind about the treaty, it falls victim to populist/opposition/conspiracy theorists interpretation.

So why not trust the specialists (or at least the politicians who have enough time on their hands) that the European citizens have voted for to represent them in their respective national parliaments to decide on their behalf.

If the majority in a national parliament ratifies the Lisbon treaty, I'm inclined to think it represents the will of the people. That's democracy.

Or are you arguing that parliamentary democracy is a failure?

meva

06-14-2008, 10:46 AM

The Union's impetus is will of it's member states, if 26 countries want to implement these reforms one can safely say that is the direction the union is heading towards. If Ireland finds this direction uncomfortable, then why is it a member?

The Irish may have very well delivered a blow that is the beginning of the end of The EU, there a few ways out of this that doesn't include a split of some sort. Ireland will go down in history as the asshole of Europe.

Did you not read my post? That is exactly the logic "they" are using. How the hell is it the will of 26 countries? Who besides the irish have voted on this? Well I will tell you who, the french and the people of the netherlands. Remember what they said? (FYI: the last study I have seen stated that this agreement has more than 99% of the legistlation which was in the illfated contitution.)

Let's have a referendum in all the member states and see if it is the will of "26 countries". And if it is, then no problem. Go ahead with your agreement.

And don't even get me started on EU following it's own rules.. "All members have to ratify..." Yeah, sure.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 10:53 AM

The logic is like: Most people is supporting EU so we shouldn't have the referendum because people could vote against.

It's just ridiculous.

If most of the people is supportive then just let them vote, and if not EU shouldn't come to existence.

This is how democracy works, if you want to change the law you need the support of the majority. You can clearly see that EU is antidemocratic, and you can only image what they will do when the get the real power.

daily666

06-14-2008, 11:03 AM

The logic is like: Most people is supporting EU so we shouldn't have the referendum because people could vote against.

It's just ridiculous.

No, basically it's because people don't have a bloody idea what it's all about.

This is how democracy works, if you want to change the law you need the support of the majority. You can clearly see that EU is antidemocratic, and you can only image what they will do when the get the real power.

No, this is how direct democracy works, and it's only useful in Switzerland. If you want to change a civil code in Poland you don't hold up a referendum. You don't even hold up a referendum to change the Constitution.

SkyUS

06-14-2008, 11:09 AM

So what is going to happen now with Lisbon Treaty. Will the countries of EU who ratified the treaty go ahead without Ireland, or what?

CMNot

06-14-2008, 11:10 AM

So why not trust the specialists (or at least the politicians who have enough time on their hands) that the European citizens have voted for to represent them in their respective national parliaments to decide on their behalf.

Firstly I didn't vote for the people who ratified it in my country.

Secondly, I'm not willingly to trust people who hold the power to change my way of life.

The Constitution was the right way forward. They managed to make a convoluted mess of that to.

Some perspective here.

90 years ago we were all trying to kill each other.

60 years ago we were all trying to kill each other.

For over half of the previous century the continent was split between two very much dissimilar and incompatible ideologies.

We as people have done well to get here. It is logical that it will be difficult.

daily666

06-14-2008, 11:14 AM

So what is going to happen now with Lisbon Treaty. Will the countries of EU who ratified the treaty go ahead without Ireland, or what?

Don't think so. EU will have to go another way to federalism.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 11:22 AM

Don't think so. EU will have to go another way to federalism.

You see? This is how it works. It's a totalitarian regime.

Sato

06-14-2008, 11:23 AM

Firstly I didn't vote for the people who ratified it in my country.

Secondly, I'm not willingly to trust people who hold the power to change my way of life.

The Constitution was the right way forward. They managed to make a convoluted mess of that to.

Some perspective here.

90 years ago we were all trying to kill each other.

60 years ago we were all trying to kill each other.

For over half of the previous century the continent was split between two very much dissimilar and incompatible ideologies.

We as people have done well to get here. It is logical that it will be difficult.

As I don't know the specific procedure of the ratification process in your country (I assume the UK) please correct me if I'm basing the following reasoning on the wrong assumptions.

The parliament will have to vote to accept this treaty. It will need a majority (at least) to do so. A majority in parliament represents a majority of voters.

So how is this not democratic, is it because some individuals dislike the sentiments of the majority that the ideas of this majority shouldn't be pursued?

I agree with you on your second thought, we've come a long way.

Basillicus

06-14-2008, 11:25 AM

You see? This is how it works. It's a totalitarian regime.

Yes, a totalitarian regiment that does things against the will of 5% minority. :roll:

SkyUS

06-14-2008, 11:27 AM

Don't think so. EU will have to go another way to federalism.

I just hope that it won't take them another couple of years to come up with a feasible plan.

The way I see it, we either stand together as an important player in the globalized world or we become insignificant 27 countries. A federal union would make EU more efficient and streamlined.

Edit:
Nationalism rises and dies. It can act as a centralizing and decentralizing agent, if some day nations of EU will feel that, it's not working for them, well than they will just break away.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 11:46 AM

So, they had this Constitution of EU. They can say that it is complicated and that you wouldn't understand it, but the point of it was very easy to understand.

It will change Europian Independent States and the European Communities into one new superstate - the European Union (at some point it was called United States of Europe - to give you the look of its nature).

4 countries where allowed to have referendum on this case - Spain and Luxembourg approved it, the France and Netherlands rejected it. There were planes to make referendums in Poland and UK but as the Constitution was rejected anyway, there was no point (the chances that both of this countries would rejected it were quite big).

So they have changed the name of the text and made some other changes to make it look different (but the point stays the same - creation of European Superstate). This time they just not allowed countries to have referendum in this case. The only problem was the Ireland – they have some law that force them to make referendum before ratification of such a thready.

Lucky for free European Nations Ireland has rejected it, but they tried the dirty tricks once, they will try them again. The point is – what type of democracy it is when politics try to make something above heads of the people or simply fool them?

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 11:53 AM

Yes, a totalitarian regiment that does things against the will of 5% minority. :roll:

Is that so? Then tell it to 54,87% voting against EUC in France, 61,6% in Netherlands, 43,48% in Luxembourg (it still more then 5%) and people voting no in Ireland.

You are simply a lier, and all this EU is build on lies.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-14-2008, 12:07 PM

It's pretty easy, actually. Last time I checked all EU member countries were having democracies where the people decide who they vote for.

So if you think the Lisbon Treaty is not the way to go, or that the EU as a whole isn't something for your country - VOTE A PARTY/POLITICAN THAT IS GETTING YOUR COUNTRY OUT OF THE EU AND STOP WHINING.

If that party/politican isn't getting enough votes i.e. most of your countrymen don't agree with it... You have to live with it, or go to another country.

You don't get it do you? A referendum was promised here and then the Government went back on its promise by quite erroneously claiming the Lisbon Treaty was different from the previous attempt at changing the EU constitution (which it isn't). There is no way I would vote New Labour anyway but one thing is clear they are going to get hammered when we next have a general election (2010 at the latest). Then we will kick this attempt to create a Fourth Reich or neo Napoleonic Empire into touch.:)

As for leaving the country I love because a load of Euro Weenies tell me I have to - bollox to that. Why don't you fcuk off back under whatever German rock you crawled out from.

Sato

06-14-2008, 12:13 PM

The point is – what type of democracy it is when politics try to make something above heads of the people or simply fool them?

This is exactly the principle behind a parliamentary democracy. People delegate the power to make decisions to politicians.
In turn, these politicians have a responsibility towards their voters to represent their will. If they do not, they will not be voted for again.

What you're saying is; I don't like the way my government makes decisions. Hence I don't thrust this Lisbon treaty. So instead of focussing on the actual content of the treaty you're just expressing dissatisfaction with your current government. By they way, the power your current government has to make decisions, was given to them by the majority of your countrymen.

Billy No Mates

06-14-2008, 12:15 PM

Apart from what Daily666 says, the Irish case shows you can't make a referendum on these things. You know most people wouldn't read it and would simply vote for what they imagine the treaty contains. That's why we also don't ask people to read the plans for a nuclear plant and then vote whether they want it to be built or not.

Strange analogy but here goes...people don't actually need to read the plans for a nuclear power plant they simply know they need electricity and it will fill that need,the same can not be said of the sort of European treaty that is being pushed at the moment .

Herman the II

06-14-2008, 01:37 PM

EU leaders to push on with treaty despite Irish defeat

European leaders vowed Saturday to press ahead with the EU reform treaty despite Ireland's shock rejection, as that country's premier faced a barrage of criticism over his handling of the campaign.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Saturday echoed that view, saying: "The others must continue ratification... so that the Irish incident does not become a crisis." France takes over the rotating EU presidency on July 1.

Attention in Ireland is now focused on whether it will have to hold another referendum to put the treaty back on track -- as Ireland did when voters rejected a previous EU treaty in 2001 and the result was reversed a year later.

Full story:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jqZGkQYD_YV3qdiNG51SGl6W8mcQ

Right decision, no more bargain...

Stonewall71

06-14-2008, 01:40 PM

Thank You Ireland!!!!

At least you were given the RIGHT TO SPEAK....all 26 other nation's people were not

Of Course, now the EuroBurocrats that rule from Brussels will bend the rules to achieve their dark objectives and destroy us a little more in order to fill up half a dozen pockets

But you should be proud of yourself

If this TREATY is so Good, why are they so AFRAID of Referendums???????

EU as a political unit entity will never exist! the "Dream" of Charle Magne, Napoleon and ...Hitler will never see the light!

Erin go bragh!

meva

06-14-2008, 04:29 PM

Full story:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jqZGkQYD_YV3qdiNG51SGl6W8mcQ

Right decision, no more bargain...

Jesus Christ! Such contempt for democracy is almost impossible to understand.
Not that this wasn't the obvious response from the federalistic crowd.

corran.pl

06-14-2008, 04:51 PM

Europe.de - nice, and so true.

futurepilot2004

06-14-2008, 05:35 PM

Full story:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jqZGkQYD_YV3qdiNG51SGl6W8mcQ

Right decision, no more bargain...

yeah.....democracy in action there :roll:

Don`t let the people vote because the politicians know it`ll never be passed, and if the people reject it, just do it anyway. Thats completely f*cked up( and before you anything, this is coming from someone who voted yes)

dava

06-14-2008, 05:41 PM

Or don't let the people vote because they well let personal emotions play a bigger role than whats being voted on.
Its not like the no-camp played it fair.
'THEY ARE GONNA CHIP THE CHILDRENZZZ!'

Why not hold a referendum in which we decide whether or not we let the government subsidize the fuel prices to 50c/l. It will be financed by taking away the humongous profits of oil firms.

THe outcome will be clear too, but will it be the best thing to do?
Referendums are not always the best choice.
And in this case, it wasnt either.

Sevryn

06-14-2008, 06:39 PM

The one good thing that came out of all this is that we wont be forced to get microchips put in our brain, yay for democracy. woot

Herrmannek

06-14-2008, 06:44 PM

Thanks to all Irlanders voting NO!!!

Herman the II

06-14-2008, 07:07 PM

Jesus Christ! Such contempt for democracy is almost impossible to understand.
Not that this wasn't the obvious response from the federalistic crowd.

yeah.....democracy in action there :roll:

So its democratic if the minority (Ireland) can stop the development of the 26 remaining countries? Laughable...
In the end governments of 26 countries will ratify the treaty and Ireland is free to join or leave. The basic of every democracy is that you accept the opinion of the majority.

Why not hold a referendum in which we decide whether or not we let the government subsidize the fuel prices to 50c/l. It will be financed by taking away the humongous profits of oil firms.

THe outcome will be clear too, but will it be the best thing to do?
Referendums are not always the best choice.
And in this case, it wasnt either.

Exactly, that's why countries in Europe have a parliamentary democracy. (But some people here obviously fail in understanding that..)

SHAM

06-14-2008, 07:24 PM

Lt. James Anderson

06-14-2008, 09:50 PM

Go Ireland!

F.ck the European Soviet Union!

SkyUS

06-14-2008, 09:58 PM

Go Ireland!

F.ck the European Soviet Union!

Aren't you an American? Nice to see you just jump on the band wagon of the whole bad evil European Soviet Socialistic Union.

meva

06-14-2008, 10:14 PM

So its democratic if the minority (Ireland) can stop the development of the 26 remaining countries? Laughable...
In the end governments of 26 countries will ratify the treaty and Ireland is free to join or leave. The basic of every democracy is that you accept the opinion of the majority.

Exactly, that's why countries in Europe have a parliamentary democracy. (But some people here obviously fail in understanding that..)

No means no. What is so hard to understand about that? Every member state has to ratify in order for the Lissabon treaty to be implemented? Yes? That is in the rules, you dont object? Ireland is bound by law to have a referendun. Yes, you don't object? The people voted. They said NO! Understand? No means no.

This is not very difficult.

No one else was given the chance to vote. Wonder why...

Read my previous post if you don't understand why no one else was given the democratic chance to vote.

You would be hard pressed to tell the EU to expell France, the Netherlands, Poland, Finland, GB and many others if they had been given the vote they so deserve.

Now do you understand?

PS. If you believe the average mp to be that much more intelligent than the average voter, I have a nice piece of swampland for sell.

Nevermind the ideals of democracy....

joka

06-14-2008, 10:19 PM

Please explain exactly what good the EU has brought anyone - apart from a small coterie of bureaucrats and has-been politicians who either failed or couldn't make it in their home countries.

If you really have such a dogmatic approach to this that you can not name a single good thing about The EU, then there's about as much point in me pointing them out to you as there is discussing the merits of The US with a Taliban.

Besides, it doesn't really matter what The EU is or was, I'm becoming more and more convinced The EU can not survive this result intact. If Ireland is kicked out - it sends out the message that differing opinions will not be tolerated plus if anyone can be kicked out at any time there will be zero confidence left in the union. If Ireland is allowed special concessions - it sends out the message that you can obstruct and blackmail to get your way. If nothing is done The EU comes of as an impotent and very expensive bickering club. Not to mention Ireland has now decimated any remaining shreds of credibility The EU had.

The only thing that could leave The EU resembling something to intact is Ireland leaving by it's own free will. But that's not going to happen though is it, they aren't going to chew off the hand that feeds them, just spit in the face of the owner of that hand. For once let's hope eurosceptics are right with the notion that the big member states run the EU by pressuring, pressure the hell of out Ireland.

But why should you care, you got your special relationship and the Irish can always return to their successful economic model of emigrating to The US. The rest of will have to choose between becoming satellite states to Berlin or Moscow. I call dibs on Germany!

Lt. James Anderson

06-14-2008, 10:27 PM

Aren't you an American? Nice to see you just jump on the band wagon of the whole bad evil European Soviet Socialistic Union.

So?
Beign of European descent I consider Europe my second home. what happens in Europe concerns me greatly.

Besides, it doesn't really matter what The EU is or was, I'm becoming more and more convinced The EU can not survive this result intact.

I hope that devils creation falls appart before more damage is done.

meva

06-14-2008, 10:34 PM

I call dibs on Germany!

We already tried that once. Didn't work out so well.

If you need the meaning of laws and democracy, just ask Herman the German.

To each his own I guess...

Sevryn

06-15-2008, 03:09 AM

Besides, it doesn't really matter what The EU is or was, I'm becoming more and more convinced The EU can not survive this result intact.

It's not like that's a bad thing, now I would have no problem if EU or the powers that control us actually had an ounce of morality the problem is that they dont. To people like this there is no God, to them they are GOD and were just simply cattle and insects.

Ireland saved Europe from a dictatorship, it save us from being forcefully put into camps and being forced to get chip implants; the elite are on a complete power trip they want to exterminate 90% of us and control us and all we want is freedom.

The problems that the world faces now is because you have so much power in so few hands, and people like this will do anything to keep a tight grip on society. They are liers, they create problems and then they tell us that we are the problem; sorry but i refuse to be spoonfed propaganda.

If the people were given the freedom to choose they would choose freedom rather then tyrrany, but unfortunately not everyone was given the freedom to choose and because of this I applaud Ireland for putting a stop to this train wreck sham of a democracy.

Revolveri

06-15-2008, 05:36 AM

I believe the deciders in EU are not trying to create anything evil, rather make the EU an organization that benefits everyone in the union. I like to be optimistic anyway. So far I've not bumped into any inconveniencies created by the EU in practical life.

What comes to the Irish referendum, I think the EU leaders were a bit naïve on that one, expecting it to be a YES vote without question. The EU is a behemoth that needs the treaty to make decision making faster. There is always the option to leave the EU if its decisions are not acceptable by its member countries. I wonder why some of the members on this forum wish to see the union fall completely instead of just seeing their country leave the union? To me it sounds rather malicious.

At the moment the union is bureaucratic and ineffective as many of you complain, the treaty was supposed to fix that.

In my opinion what each country needs is a public face for the union. Someone (preferably their own countryman) to explain the whole thing in a few simple terms on TV, internet or radio. A lot of public debates etc. At the moment the EU is a giant faceless bureaucratic machine, not very attractive. Unfortunately emotions play a big part in people's decisions and nobody is interested in a cold machine running behind the curtains.

EDIT: And I don't condemn the Irish for their no vote. Their government failed to explain them properly and some of the EU ministers should've kept their mouths shut with their threats.

corran.pl

06-15-2008, 06:35 AM

The European Union does not exist, it was meant to be created on 1st June 2009, what now is often called EU in fact are European Communities - it is another lie, when you hear that EU this, EU that - I was meant to create impression that it exists and that Lisbon Treaty creates only minor changes. Look at the web site of the Europian The Court of Justice: curia.europa.eu

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5580/cojws7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

See the name?

If Lisbon Treaty would be ratified there would be no more Liberum veto for the countries. It is same with leaving EU, any country leaving EU can't do this easily (or in fact at all) same like lets say New Mexico can't leave United States of America. If any of the states want to leave EU one (of many) conditions is that EU parliament should vote on it. So you can't leave EU without EU parliament allowing it to do this (so in fact you need permission to leave from France and Germany and that obviously will never happen). So you can't just leave!

And last thing. You can't just adopt treaty in other 26 states – the text of treaty was signed by the representatives of 27 states on 13 December 2007 in Lisbon – and from that moment you can't change a word in it. It must be ratified by all countries or it will have no force in law. Of course you can prepare new treaty (changing only number of countries), give it to representatives and later to the parliaments of the next 26 states for ratification, but you must do all it from the beginning. You can't say that Lisbon Treaty will work in other 26 countries, you need new treaty even if it will be the same.

Herrmannek

06-15-2008, 06:36 AM

Revolveri

06-15-2008, 07:13 AM

If Lisbon Treaty would be ratified there would be no more Liberum veto for the countries. It is same with leaving EU, any country leaving EU can't do this easily (or in fact at all) same like lets say New Mexico can't leave United States of America. If any of the states want to leave EU one (of many) conditions is that EU parliament should vote on it. So you can't leave EU without EU parliament allowing it to do this (so in fact you need permission to leave from France and Germany and that obviously will never happen). So you can't just leave!

If the country decides to leave, then a vote by other EU members is not going to change that. I doubt the rest of EU is going to invade the country in question. Perhaps put in economic sanctions, but then, that's how politics work and the country leaving just has to endure it. It's either stay in EU and put up with it or leave and face the possible consequences.

Ireland will most likely stay in the EU but something special has to be negotiated with her.

corran.pl

06-15-2008, 07:23 AM

If the country decides to leave, then a vote by other EU members is not going to change that. I doubt the rest of EU is going to invade the country in question.

Are you going to put your life on that?

You know what happened when South Carolina wanted to leave The Union?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Revolveri

06-15-2008, 07:29 AM

Are you going to put your life on that?

Yes at the moment I would. Norway and Iceland are not in the EU, one country more would not result in a war in my opinion. The EU would just move on.

You know what happened when South Carolina wanted to leave The Union?

The EU was built to maintain peace within it, that's one of its purposes I believe, along with trade. So far it's done its job. If it really decided to wage war against a country that leaves it, the whole union would collapse like a card house. For one, it would not be the EU waging war but a country/countries in it because the EU does not have the power to start a war.

So that's why the EU will not wage war, it would split and collapse it and that's what the leaders in the EU do not want. So I think it's safe for a country to leave it.

IronFinn

06-15-2008, 07:54 AM

Are you going to put your life on that?

You know what happened when South Carolina wanted to leave The Union?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Don´t you think this is a wee bit far fetched comparison? I mean really, 19th century US and 21th century EU?

Herrmannek

06-15-2008, 08:15 AM

And how people are different from those living in 19th or 20th century? There is a dream by European socialists, bureaucrats, communists and all other pinkos about building a new country where they could sport their sick ideas not matter what... LOL, they started by abusing the weaknesses of democracy, its second time they are trying to push a treaty few read and even fewer understood and failed, and now they are already threatening everyone they will push the treaty this way or another not giving a damn if ordinary people want that or not. There is so big pressure on this thing I have no doubt this people will move to using force against anyone within threatening the project.

SHAM

06-15-2008, 08:31 AM

There has been quite a few comments about Ireland leaving the EU after democratically expressing its vote in a constitutional referendum, because that result does not meet with some individual’s personal opinions.
This referendum and the referendums that Ireland and other countries in the EU have had previously are a clear example of democracy at work, an additional reason why many countries have chosen to join the EU and more are wishing to.
These individuals and perhaps there nations if so abhorred by the expression of democracy in the EU should reflect on there own membership of the EU, perhaps there hate of freedom is so great they might want to join up with Mugabe in Zimbabwe where you can surely rely all decisions will be made by the Government for you.
I feel confident given time to reflect the EU (as far as I know there is more to the EU than Germany and France) will aknowledge the decision of the Irish people and reflect on a better way forward that is all inclusive for all those who respect democracy, and an exit mechanism put in place for those freedom haters.

Lt. James Anderson

06-15-2008, 08:34 AM

Don´t you think this is a wee bit far fetched comparison? I mean really, 19th century US and 21th century EU?

Bombing of Serbia? Which century did that happen in??? Or the pressure Austrians were under by the same POS EU because they voted the "Nazi party" into power? LOL

Basically ... Anybody that steps out of line too much will be dealt with severely ...

Macs.

06-15-2008, 08:36 AM

muck

06-15-2008, 08:52 AM

Ireland saved Europe from a dictatorship, it save us from being forcefully put into camps and being forced to get chip implants; the elite are on a complete power trip they want to exterminate 90% of us and control us and all we want is freedom.
This is by far the most nutty comment I've ever read here. It makes me wonder whether its author does actually believe in what he has written.
:cantbeli:

SHAM

06-15-2008, 08:55 AM

I know Germans are famed for having no sense of humor, even I can see he was being Sarcastic!

corran.pl

06-15-2008, 08:55 AM

I just wonder why most active pro-EU members of this forum are Germans?

Macs.

06-15-2008, 08:58 AM

I know Germans are famed for having no sense of humor, even I can see he was being Sarcastic!

Are you sure about that ? Because the Polish are not famous for being the Funmasters either.

And before the voting in Ireland there were actually people claiming that the EU plans to put RFID-Chips into every newborn.

I just wonder why most active pro-EU members of this forum are Germans?

Because we want to put you in camps and put a RFID-Chip under your skin.

*Sarcasm*

Herrmannek

06-15-2008, 09:00 AM

I just wonder why most active pro-EU members of this forum are Germans?

They like to be told what to do :)

muck

06-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Considering the odd arguments Irish treaty-opposers used to catch voters, I must say no I actually thought that this one was for real.

Herman the II

06-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Because we want to put you in camps and put a RFID-Chip under your skin.

Shh, be quiet..
Don't you remember the "low profile" doctrine?

SHAM

06-15-2008, 09:04 AM

Considering the odd arguments Irish treaty-opposers used to catch voters, I must say no I actually thought that this one was for real.

Do tell me about these odd arguements, your going to have to tell me more than the one comment by some old granny about kids being chipped.

Revolveri

06-15-2008, 09:49 AM

Bombing of Serbia? Which century did that happen in???

How does that relate to the EU? It was NATO that bombed the country. Besides the Serbs voted in power a party that is trying to get the country into the EU. I guess they view the EU as a benefit and not a dictatorship despite many EU countries recognizing Kosovo independence.

Or the pressure Austrians were under by the same POS EU because they voted the "Nazi party" into power? LOL

Well I don't know anything about that so I'm not qualified to comment.

I just wonder why most active pro-EU members of this forum are Germans?

Perhaps they're tired of always fighting over silly things on this continent since they already failed in two wars and see the EU as something memorable they can build together with others peacefully.

Sevryn

06-15-2008, 03:17 PM

I just wonder why most active pro-EU members of this forum are Germans?

Because it was the inner core of the Nazi Party that first came up with the idea of a European Union. The Nazis were into the occult and Eugenics and wanted to create some super race and an engeneered slave race to serve them.

This is what those pinkos in EU are truley up to, killing 90% of us that have the mind and the capacity to resist; the ones that are left will be more managable and easier to control.

Stonewall71

06-15-2008, 05:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNj5iCU5mLg

joka

06-15-2008, 05:20 PM

Is that so? Then tell it to 54,87% voting against EUC in France, 61,6% in Netherlands, 43,48% in Luxembourg (it still more then 5%) and people voting no in Ireland.

You are simply a lier, and all this EU is build on lies.

Funny you should bring up The Constitutional treaty, considering that 26 million people voted for it vs 24 million who voted against it. If democracy (ie the rule of majority) is your concern, then you're on the wrong side of the argument.

Pars

06-15-2008, 06:46 PM

Because it was the inner core of the Nazi Party that first came up with the idea of a European Union. The Nazis were into the occult and Eugenics and wanted to create some super race and an engeneered slave race to serve them.

This is what those pinkos in EU are truley up to, killing 90% of us that have the mind and the capacity to resist; the ones that are left will be more managable and easier to control.

Haha, I knew it! The EU is a secret Nazi plot! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!11 Dumbarse.

Indiana Jones

06-15-2008, 07:29 PM

I know Germans are famed for having no sense of humor, even I can see he was being Sarcastic!
Is that so ?
I am quite convinced the man is dead serious. Take a look at his posting history.

fish&chips

06-15-2008, 08:20 PM

Because it was the inner core of the Nazi Party that first came up with the idea of a European Union. ...

This is what those pinkos in EU are truley up to, killing 90% of us that have the mind and the capacity to resist; the ones that are left will be more managable and easier to control.

Quoted for hilarity. I'd like to second Indiana Jones, I too fail to see the sarcasm in this statement.

joka

06-15-2008, 08:58 PM

Did you not read my post? That is exactly the logic "they" are using. How the hell is it the will of 26 countries? Who besides the irish have voted on this? Well I will tell you who, the french and the people of the netherlands. Remember what they said? (FYI: the last study I have seen stated that this agreement has more than 99% of the legistlation which was in the illfated contitution.)

Let's have a referendum in all the member states and see if it is the will of "26 countries". And if it is, then no problem. Go ahead with your agreement.

And don't even get me started on EU following it's own rules.. "All members have to ratify..." Yeah, sure.

It is you who just doesn't get it. You're approaching this issue from the assumption that The EU is a democracy or an union of the people. It isn't. It's an international arrangement of sovereign states, it doesn't even have a legal personality. Let me run it by you once more, those states are sovereign ie. They have supreme authority over their people.

It is the will of those countries because the supreme authority, ie. The state, has decided it is. If you don't like it, tough luck, this is the way countries are run, everywhere. You can go join a hippy commune if you want a society without leaders.

There is no rule book for democracies that says reforms of this arrangement requires referendums anymore than tax hikes or WTO negotiations do. Just because you draw an imaginary line in the sand and claim everything on the other side is undemocratic doesn't make it so, or else everything that isn't direct democracy is undemocratic.

The Irish constitution requires a disenfranchised public to take part in a decision making process of an issue they self admittedly know little to nothing about (and then complain when text written by lawyers for lawyers is lawyerly). That's their way of doing things, I resent you trying to impose it on my country though. Therefore I would never vote for a demagogue trying to hide behind the public, luckily, neither does my countrymen.

Why is it that every time I have a discussion with an euroseparatist, I feel like I'm explaining Santa to a 5 year old?

Your last bit, well yeah, this is where The Irish sowed the seed and put us back a good couple of decades, this outcome will now underline more than ever that The EU is a group of sovereign countries and we will witness a movement away from democratic accountability and towards intergovernmental negotiations. We can kiss a transparent and accountable commission selection process goodbye for example, everything will be decided among ministers behind closed doors.

SHAM

06-15-2008, 09:20 PM

The Irish constitution requires a disenfranchised public to take part in a decision making process of an issue they self admittedly know little to nothing about (and then complain when text written by lawyers for lawyers is lawyerly). That's their way of doing things, I resent you trying to impose it on my country though. .

Just to clarify for you, as you seem to be an expert on the disenfranchised Irish.

The Irish constitution requires the public to vote in a referendum on changes / ammendments to the Irish Constitution. That was what the Irish people voted on, not a yes or no to the Lisbon Treaty.

They voted no to ammending the Irish Constitution because the Irish government made it there public policy not to tell the people what the ammendments were, or what was being ammended, and merely told everyone to trust them and vote Yes.
Given the Irish governments recent track record for trust, it is not suprising the No vote won.
If they had done as the people had asked for over a year and told them what the ammendments were, then I am quite confident it would have been a yes vote.

joka

06-15-2008, 09:28 PM

They voted no to ammending the Irish Constitution because the Irish government made it there public policy not to tell the people what the ammendments were, or what was being ammended, and merely told everyone to trust them and vote Yes.
Given the Irish governments recent track record for trust, it is not suprising the No vote won.
If they had done as the people had asked for over a year and told them what the ammendments were, then I am quite confident it would have been a yes vote.

So the rest of EU get's blasted in the ass because of the shortcoming of the Irish government. How long sighted and considerate of you, whoever let Ireland in to the union should be given a medal.

SHAM

06-15-2008, 09:37 PM

So the rest of EU get's blasted in the ass because of the shortcoming of the Irish government. How long sighted and considerate of you, whoever let Ireland in to the union should be given a medal.

Who's the rest of the EU? as far as I know two other countries when they put it to the vote, voted no also.
Given the opportunity citizens of every other country in the EU I am sure would like to put it to the vote, some perhaps more than others.
Its easy to come on a forum and make like your some how representing something more than yourself, cutting through all the shyte talk, three "Nations" when given the opportunity have now said No to this treaty in one form or another and the consequences are clear.

meva

06-15-2008, 11:02 PM

It is you who just doesn't get it. You're approaching this issue from the assumption that The EU is a democracy or an union of the people. It isn't. It's an international arrangement of sovereign states, it doesn't even have a legal personality. Let me run it by you once more, those states are sovereign ie. They have supreme authority over their people.

It is the will of those countries because the supreme authority, ie. The state, has decided it is. If you don't like it, tough luck, this is the way countries are run, everywhere. You can go join a hippy commune if you want a society without leaders.

There is no rule book for democracies that says reforms of this arrangement requires referendums anymore than tax hikes or WTO negotiations do. Just because you draw an imaginary line in the sand and claim everything on the other side is undemocratic doesn't make it so, or else everything that isn't direct democracy is undemocratic.

The Irish constitution requires a disenfranchised public to take part in a decision making process of an issue they self admittedly know little to nothing about (and then complain when text written by lawyers for lawyers is lawyerly). That's their way of doing things, I resent you trying to impose it on my country though. Therefore I would never vote for a demagogue trying to hide behind the public, luckily, neither does my countrymen.

Why is it that every time I have a discussion with an euroseparatist, I feel like I'm explaining Santa to a 5 year old?

Your last bit, well yeah, this is where The Irish sowed the seed and put us back a good couple of decades, this outcome will now underline more than ever that The EU is a group of sovereign countries and we will witness a movement away from democratic accountability and towards intergovernmental negotiations. We can kiss a transparent and accountable commission selection process goodbye for example, everything will be decided among ministers behind closed doors.

Whoa there, Bubba. You are running around with the mentality that the Lisbon agreement has been implemented. Just to clarify, it hasn't, but let's get back to that later.

Lets break this down into pieces, so we can have a discussion based on facts, not wants and hopes.

Lisbon treaty, among other things, will get rid of member-vetos, ie. majority rule will come into effect. Do you agree, yes or no?

In order for Ireland to ratify they had to have a referendum. Do you agree, yes or no?

Current EU rules call for ALL member states to ratify for Lisbon treaty to be passed. Do you agree, yes or no?

If you answered yes to all as I expect and hope, then we have the following s
ituation:

You are crying and angry at the world because the treaty getting rid of member vetoes was vetoed by a member. Member following it's laws ffs. If you don't see the hypocricy in that then I don't know what to say. I will just follow your well mannered example and say tough luck.

But since you brought up explaining Santa to a five year old, I'll might as well try that also.

Lets say we have an international organisation, lets call it EC, which has been put to place to promote commerce and mutual understanding. Nowhere and never has this organisation been designed, publicly that is, to become a sovereign and independent superstate thus destroying the independence of the countries which are members in this organisation. Also no public has ever been given the chance to vote if they are willing for the EC to become such a superstate. (Naturally, since this has never been publicly proposed.)

Then along comes the propositon for an EC constitution, practically making EC an independent state and with all the consequences it would have. Some countries decide to have a vote on this constitution, some don't. (All those which didn't bother to ask the people were countries where the populace was against the constitution, with two exceptions. Check it out if you don't believe me.)

The people vote and the constitution goes in the toilet.(It is clearly in EC rules that ALL members have to ratify. In fact, this is one of the things the constitution would take away.)

Some people cry, "why they vetoed the agreement taking away their veto". Oh, the irony...

The "progressed" ones of course don't see the irony. But they are dead certain they are right. And in their righteous anger they make a few changes to the constitution and change it's name and start the ratifications again as if it hadn't already been voted down. Shutting their eyes for this insult to democracy in epic proportions, they defend themselfs by stating that the parliaments now ratificating the agreement have been voted in by the people. When asked why the referendums in the first place, and if then why not now, they have no answer. (We all know the answer though.)

One member is bound by law, yes at this point in time local law still surpasses EC directives, to hold a referendum. (If the agreement is ratified, some changes to this will be made. Along with the aforemented change that as there is no veto, the directives surpassing local laws can be put into effect and even forcibly enforced even if the member state is fully against it. Example; state France and state Germany want to make it illegal to warm ones house with wood. Reason for this is said to be ecological concerns(unstated reasons being heating resourses produced by states France and Germany.) And due to their climate and structure they have very little need for heating with wood. (or cultural quirks like sauna) So they join up with other warmer climate countries and wouldn't you know it, Finland finds itself having to make woodwarming illegal. Does it sound like Finland is an independent country in this treaty ratified scenario?)

The required referendum is held, again, and the result is no. Again.

To every sane person this means the following, the agreement can not and will not be implemented.

But for some reason, a large number of "progressives" start waving their hands and making a lot of noise. It is hard to understand what their reason for this rampage is. What exactly is it that they are protesting against? What is their point? What did the "sceptics" do wrong, where did they cheat? Funny guestion when keeping in mind the tactics of the "progressives".

All rules and all laws were followed to the teeth, weren't they? If they were not then the federalists should point out where this infraction has happened.

And as it seems that no such infraction is to be found, as it would have been made page one news in all the papers in a heartbeat, we can come to only one conclusion. The reason for their rage and frollocking is that the people voted wrong.

Yes the same progressive way one voted back in the USSR, not for someone or something or even against something, but right or wrong. The right choice being told from Moscow back in those days.

(This story of the EC and it's constitution/agreement is fully fictional. And where it is not the names have been changed to protect the guilty.)

joka

06-16-2008, 06:45 AM

Who's the rest of the EU? as far as I know two other countries when they put it to the vote, voted no also.
Given the opportunity citizens of every other country in the EU I am sure would like to put it to the vote, some perhaps more than others.

The 26 other member states, it is the states that are members not the people, and the Irish outcome ensured it will stay that way. We won't be getting anywhere near the decision making process for a loooooong time. If The Irish government had any sense of responsibility and decency it would leave it's intention to withdraw from The EU today.

Its easy to come on a forum and make like your some how representing something more than yourself, cutting through all the shyte talk, three "Nations" when given the opportunity have now said No to this treaty in one form or another and the consequences are clear.

Jesus Chirst, do you even read what I write or are you just hitting your keyboard at random? I'm not claiming to represent anyone but myself, you on the other hand have proclaimed to be the spokesman for the entire populace of 3 countries. Quite a contrast.

Yes, I know, the consequences are clear. I've used the analogy of that you shot us in the foot before, but it's becoming more obvious that you gave us cancer, this result will fester and grow and it will destroy the EU from within. There is nothing The EU can do now without being portrayed as weak, indecisive and undemocratic.

joka

06-16-2008, 07:34 AM

Whoa there, Bubba. You are running around with the mentality that the Lisbon agreement has been implemented. Just to clarify, it hasn't, but let's get back to that later.

Lets break this down into pieces, so we can have a discussion based on facts, not wants and hopes.

Lisbon treaty, among other things, will get rid of member-vetos, ie. majority rule will come into effect. Do you agree, yes or no?

In order for Ireland to ratify they had to have a referendum. Do you agree, yes or no?

Current EU rules call for ALL member states to ratify for Lisbon treaty to be passed. Do you agree, yes or no?

If you answered yes to all as I expect and hope, then we have the following s
ituation:

You are crying and angry at the world because the treaty getting rid of member vetoes was vetoed by a member. Member following it's laws ffs. If you don't see the hypocricy in that then I don't know what to say. I will just follow your well mannered example and say tough luck.

But since you brought up explaining Santa to a five year old, I'll might as well try that also.

Lets say we have an international organisation, lets call it EC, which has been put to place to promote commerce and mutual understanding. Nowhere and never has this organisation been designed, publicly that is, to become a sovereign and independent superstate thus destroying the independence of the countries which are members in this organisation. Also no public has ever been given the chance to vote if they are willing for the EC to become such a superstate. (Naturally, since this has never been publicly proposed.)

Then along comes the propositon for an EC constitution, practically making EC an independent state and with all the consequences it would have. Some countries decide to have a vote on this constitution, some don't. (All those which didn't bother to ask the people were countries where the populace was against the constitution, with two exceptions. Check it out if you don't believe me.)

The people vote and the constitution goes in the toilet.(It is clearly in EC rules that ALL members have to ratify. In fact, this is one of the things the constitution would take away.)

Some people cry, "why they vetoed the agreement taking away their veto". Oh, the irony...

The "progressed" ones of course don't see the irony. But they are dead certain they are right. And in their righteous anger they make a few changes to the constitution and change it's name and start the ratifications again as if it hadn't already been voted down. Shutting their eyes for this insult to democracy in epic proportions, they defend themselfs by stating that the parliaments now ratificating the agreement have been voted in by the people. When asked why the referendums in the first place, and if then why not now, they have no answer. (We all know the answer though.)

One member is bound by law, yes at this point in time local law still surpasses EC directives, to hold a referendum. (If the agreement is ratified, some changes to this will be made. Along with the aforemented change that as there is no veto, the directives surpassing local laws can be put into effect and even forcibly enforced even if the member state is fully against it. Example; state France and state Germany want to make it illegal to warm ones house with wood. Reason for this is said to be ecological concerns(unstated reasons being heating resourses produced by states France and Germany.) And due to their climate and structure they have very little need for heating with wood. (or cultural quirks like sauna) So they join up with other warmer climate countries and wouldn't you know it, Finland finds itself having to make woodwarming illegal. Does it sound like Finland is an independent country in this treaty ratified scenario?)

The required referendum is held, again, and the result is no. Again.

To every sane person this means the following, the agreement can not and will not be implemented.

But for some reason, a large number of "progressives" start waving their hands and making a lot of noise. It is hard to understand what their reason for this rampage is. What exactly is it that they are protesting against? What is their point? What did the "sceptics" do wrong, where did they cheat? Funny guestion when keeping in mind the tactics of the "progressives".

All rules and all laws were followed to the teeth, weren't they? If they were not then the federalists should point out where this infraction has happened.

And as it seems that no such infraction is to be found, as it would have been made page one news in all the papers in a heartbeat, we can come to only one conclusion. The reason for their rage and frollocking is that the people voted wrong.

Yes the same progressive way one voted back in the USSR, not for someone or something or even against something, but right or wrong. The right choice being told from Moscow back in those days.

(This story of the EC and it's constitution/agreement is fully fictional. And where it is not the names have been changed to protect the guilty.)

I'm not going to read all that. You'll have to make it more concise if you want a reply.

joka

06-16-2008, 08:52 AM

daily666

06-16-2008, 09:28 AM

Billy No Mates

06-16-2008, 09:40 AM

I'm not going to read all that. You'll have to make it more concise if you want a reply.

Perhaps thats exactly how the Irish felt about the Lisbon treaty...and there's you getting all pissey about it.....

Sato

06-16-2008, 09:55 AM

Perhaps thats exactly how the Irish felt about the Lisbon treaty...and there's you getting all pissey about it.....

Well said!

meva

06-16-2008, 10:27 AM

I'm not going to read all that. You'll have to make it more concise if you want a reply.

Good to know where the limits of your capacity are. Hopefully someone else can put this 1000 pages of legal text and it's ramifications into one cool looking powerpoint slide even the likes of you have the tenacity to read.

Dexx

06-16-2008, 11:51 AM

Because it was the inner core of the Nazi Party that first came up with the idea of a European Union. The Nazis were into the occult and Eugenics and wanted to create some super race and an engeneered slave race to serve them.

This is what those pinkos in EU are truley up to, killing 90% of us that have the mind and the capacity to resist; the ones that are left will be more managable and easier to control.

Don't forget your tinfoil hat. Hilarious comment! If more Poles are like you I can only feel pity for our neighbouring country. LoL!

tsuri

06-16-2008, 12:38 PM

Lets say we have an international organisation, lets call it EC, which has been put to place to promote commerce and mutual understanding. Nowhere and never has this organisation been designed, publicly that is, to become a sovereign and independent superstate.

Wrong, each of the European Communities established a government for itself, calling it a commission and each were later put under parliamentary control and each is still going to be under the same control that they were established with. No super state.

Then along comes the propositon for an EC constitution, practically making EC an independent state and with all the consequences it would have.
It was perhaps the most retarded move of all to call that thing a constitution. It was not. It was merely all EU treaties so far in a single book with a few changes and it was called a constitutional treaty because it was supposed to CONSTITUTE THE EUROPEAN UNION. So that it might become a legal personality. That is all.

angry cow

06-16-2008, 12:50 PM

So are they going to send it back and tell the Irish to vote the right way this time?

I hear that seems to work. They just need to express their angst by voting No, and then they get it out of their system and sign on like everyone else.

Faheywitane

06-16-2008, 01:41 PM

The 26 other member states, it is the states that are members not the people, and the Irish outcome ensured it will stay that way. We won't be getting anywhere near the decision making process for a loooooong time. If The Irish government had any sense of responsibility and decency it would leave it's intention to withdraw from The EU today.

Jesus Chirst, do you even read what I write or are you just hitting your keyboard at random? I'm not claiming to represent anyone but myself, you on the other hand have proclaimed to be the spokesman for the entire populace of 3 countries. Quite a contrast.

Yes, I know, the consequences are clear. I've used the analogy of that you shot us in the foot before, but it's becoming more obvious that you gave us cancer, this result will fester and grow and it will destroy the EU from within. There is nothing The EU can do now without being portrayed as weak, indecisive and undemocratic.

Lad, your starting to come across as a bit of a crybaby, Ireland has given he EU cancer? We should leave the EU if we had any sense of decency?

First of all let me say this, the referendum didn't go the way I wanted, I believe that the EU has been good and will continue to be good for Ireland, thats where Im coming from.

Secondly thats immaterial now that the yes side lost, as someone who believes fervently in the concept of democracy I have to respect the decision
of my fellow countrymen. Why cant you do the same? How can you find fault with a constitution that allows the people a say when an amendment is necessary?

Now that I have more time to think about it, why doesn't this happen in other countries?

Like it or not, I am just as much of an EU citizen as you are, my passport says so, my car registration plate say so every official document I posses says so. From reading your posts it comes across as if your trying to say that some how Im not.

I for one know that we have a lot to give the EU still, it would be silly for us to leave and stupid for the rest to throw us out.

joka

06-16-2008, 08:05 PM

Lad, your starting to come across as a bit of a crybaby, Ireland has given he EU cancer? We should leave the EU if we had any sense of decency?

Fair enough, I could tone it down a bit.

Secondly thats immaterial now that the yes side lost, as someone who believes fervently in the concept of democracy I have to respect the decision
of my fellow countrymen. Why cant you do the same?

I'm not Irish, I do not live in Ireland, my obligations aren't towards Ireland. Right now Ireland is the crazy drunk driver who just put us all on collision course towards a wall, and I have very little interests in seeing you remaining in the car. Quite simply you are a liability. And as much as I (used to) like The Irish, when it comes down to either you or me.. get out.

I wish we could negotiate our way out of this, make a compromise and move forward as one, but The Lisbon treaty was the compromise, this was plan B, you've proven that we can't. And if you think it isn't a wall approaching, if you think you've directed us to a green pasture with birds singing and the one perfect treaty being signed by everyone in the car, it's more than alcohol you've been enjoying.

Like it or not, I am just as much of an EU citizen as you are, my passport says so, my car registration plate say so every official document I posses says so. From reading your posts it comes across as if your trying to say that some how Im not.

And it pains me to ask Ireland to leave, I used to think we could all get along and work together, but you blew that illusion right out of the water. The honeymoon is over.

I for one know that we have a lot to give the EU still, it would be silly for us to leave and stupid for the rest to throw us out.
You are a direct and concrete threat to the EU's ability to function, the best thing you can do for The EU is to leave. At best you've decimated people's confidence towards The EU and it's credibility on the world stage, at worst you've sown the seed that is the beginning of the end. If you leave voluntarily, damages can be mitigated. Take one for the team, you'll probably end up re-joining somewhere along the line anyway.

tsuri

06-16-2008, 08:56 PM

So are they going to send it back and tell the Irish to vote the right way this time?

Well sadly, it worked a few times already. All the Irish have to do is say no again though.

This is not the end of the world people, there have been many setbacks in the history of the EU and look where it is now.
The democratic right of the Irish must not be denied (even if mostly based on faulty information) All we can do is not advance further from where we are now. That is not ideal but the system works, even though it is horrendously slow without a new treaty.

We can only hope that this will result in Plan B. So far nobody has had the balls to reboot the system and write a new treaty from scratch. But that is what we need. The heads of state fear it since they cling to the power that they still hold.

Sadly those that hate the "super state" EU fail to see the irony behind their demands.
We have to let the people of Europe have a constitutional convention, write a new treaty and create a new Union. One that will end with something unheard of previously. Direct legitimation by the people and as such be a state by itself and not an entity sui generis.

Jesse Kantstopolis

06-17-2008, 02:28 AM

All of the Pro European Union Pro Treaty of Lisbon people here seem to have one thing in common, Machiavelli. "Never mind the countries that ratified the Treaty didn't allow their citizens to vote, their citizens are too stupid to be allowed a vote anyways." Clearly you do not speak for the majority when you admit that the treaty would be rejected if the people were allowed to vote. And I'm not saying the majority is always right, history shows the majority is usually wrong. But by advocating the people should not be allowed a vote, you advocate tyranny. I genuinely believe most Westerners recognize tyranny is not in their best interest and they are correct in doing so. Certainly here in America the traditions of Liberty are much stronger, but WWII was predominately fought in Europe, and I don't believe it was fought because the swastika was offensive.

Jesse Kantstopolis

06-17-2008, 02:42 AM

Don't forget your tinfoil hat. Hilarious comment! If more Poles are like you I can only feel pity for our neighbouring country. LoL!

This was made in response to Sevryn's quote.

"Because it was the inner core of the Nazi Party that first came up with the idea of a European Union. The Nazis were into the occult and Eugenics and wanted to create some super race and an engeneered slave race to serve them.
This is what those pinkos in EU are truley up to, killing 90% of us that have the mind and the capacity to resist; the ones that are left will be more managable and easier to control."

I don't know what Dexx is saying is incorrect, that the Nazis were into eugenics? Or that there are people who want to reduce the world's population to no more than 500 million, ie 90% reduction. Either way it is well documented fact that both are true.

Endgame: Blueprint For Global Enslavement
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261&q=endgame&ei=c05XSLSHCJHCqAP-75HmDg

Everything is cited.
http://endgamethemovie.com/biblio01.html

futurepilot2004

06-17-2008, 04:21 AM

Fair enough, I could tone it down a bit.

I'm not Irish, I do not live in Ireland, my obligations aren't towards Ireland. Right now Ireland is the crazy drunk driver who just put us all on collision course towards a wall, and I have very little interests in seeing you remaining in the car. Quite simply you are a liability. And as much as I (used to) like The Irish, when it comes down to either you or me.. get out.

I wish we could negotiate our way out of this, make a compromise and move forward as one, but The Lisbon treaty was the compromise, this was plan B, you've proven that we can't. And if you think it isn't a wall approaching, if you think you've directed us to a green pasture with birds singing and the one perfect treaty being signed by everyone in the car, it's more than alcohol you've been enjoying.

And it pains me to ask Ireland to leave, I used to think we could all get along and work together, but you blew that illusion right out of the water. The honeymoon is over.

You are a direct and concrete threat to the EU's ability to function, the best thing you can do for The EU is to leave. At best you've decimated people's confidence towards The EU and it's credibility on the world stage, at worst you've sown the seed that is the beginning of the end. If you leave voluntarily, damages can be mitigated. Take one for the team, you'll probably end up re-joining somewhere along the line anyway.

Thank you for livening up my morning with that rambling. Certainly one of the funniest/stupid posts I`ve read here in a while.

Revolveri

06-17-2008, 06:16 AM

Stonewall71

06-17-2008, 10:32 AM

I'm not Irish, I do not live in Ireland, my obligations aren't towards Ireland. Right now Ireland is the crazy drunk driver who just put us all on collision course towards a wall, and I have very little interests in seeing you remaining in the car. Quite simply you are a liability. And as much as I (used to) like The Irish, when it comes down to either you or me.. get out.

Well, but if the Treaty of Lisbon would get thorugh, there would not be any more Irish, Italians, English , German or else...we would all become a "happy " family of "Europeans", so you should not be rude with your fellow "citizens":roll:

Sevryn

06-17-2008, 10:46 AM

Don't forget your tinfoil hat. Hilarious comment! If more Poles are like you I can only feel pity for our neighbouring country. LoL!

This is why I dislike Germans and Germany, they invaded my country killed my people enslaved us, dehumanized us; and now after 60 they come to us and try to enlighten us about the virtous of having a few elites running everyhting to the ground.

We don't freking like you don't you get it? The only reason Poland said YES to EU was for the AID and $$$, they did it because they were denied help and assistance in rebuilding their country after what you Germans did to us. Poland has not seen 1 red penny in repirations so far, we seen EU aid, but the fact of the matter is that this aid and help should have come to Poland reguardless if Poland joined EU or not.

What's with the "you only get aid after you join the 3rd Reich" thingy, they should have offered help reguardless of wether we joined or not. And now after we joined the so called enlightaned NAZI Countries are trying to
once again strangle Poland alive. Now a days Poles are a nice scape goat to the EU, why mention muslim immigrants when you can use the media propaganda 24/7 about how Poles are evil and invading your countries.

I hope that this nutty EU idea dies soon, and I am sure it will the western pinko countries made a multicultural blunder by openly supporting the erradication of their native populations over some 3rd world filth.

Every night I pray for a Muslim riot in UK, France, Germany, Denmark etc; and every time I wake up God answers my prayers when I pick up the newspapaer. :hug:

fish&chips

06-17-2008, 11:19 AM

It just occured to me that one could possibly make a fortune selling tinfoil hats on mp.net. I should have a talk with Hood about that.

Revolveri

06-17-2008, 11:31 AM

This is why I dislike Germans and Germany, they invaded my country killed my people enslaved us, dehumanized us; and now after 60 they come to us and try to enlighten us about the virtous of having a few elites running everyhting to the ground.

We don't freking like you don't you get it? The only reason Poland said YES to EU was for the AID and $$$, they did it because they were denied help and assistance in rebuilding their country after what you Germans did to us. Poland has not seen 1 red penny in repirations so far, we seen EU aid, but the fact of the matter is that this aid and help should have come to Poland reguardless if Poland joined EU or not.

III. REPARATIONS FROM GERMANY.

1. Reparation claims of the U. S. S. R. shall be met by removals from the zone of Germany occupied by the U. S. S. R., and from appropriate German external assets.
2. The U. S. S. R. undertakes to settle the reparation claims of Poland from its own share of reparations.

Response quote taken from http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/decade/decade17.htm

If you want your missing war reparations you should ask them from the ex-Soviet countries.

Billy No Mates

06-17-2008, 11:39 AM

It just occured to me that one could possibly make a fortune selling tinfoil hats on mp.net. I should have a talk with Hood about that.

We could use the money to further develop our MP.net thought control machine .

fish&chips

06-17-2008, 12:03 PM

Excellent idea, Billy!

Now back on topic:

Minster for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin says that none of the other EU states have pointed the finger of blame at the Irish Government over the defeat of the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Speaking after a meeting of foreign ministers in Luxembourg, he said all the states wanted to work with Ireland to find a solution to the situation. He told a news conference that solidarity was the overwhelming message given to him by the other ministers at today's meeting. He said there was no talk of the other 26 states going ahead and leaving Ireland behind.

In particular, he said, German foreign minster Frank Walter Steinmeyer told him that Germany wanted to work with Ireland. He said there had been no discussion of putting the Lisbon Treaty to another referendum, nor of any changes to the treaty text or its implementation that may be made. Mr Martin said Ireland was a strong supporter of a deeper EU with a stronger global role and did not want to be left behind.Full story:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0616/eulisbon.html

Stonewall71

06-17-2008, 12:13 PM

The only reason Poland said YES to EU was for the AID and $$$,

All small countries said yes ONLY because of thatrofl

I know...mine didp-)

corran.pl

06-17-2008, 12:48 PM

There Is No Such Thing As A Free Dinner !

... or money!

joka

06-17-2008, 06:27 PM

Thank you for livening up my morning with that rambling. Certainly one of the funniest/stupid posts I`ve read here in a while.

Na-ha, you're stupid!

joka

06-17-2008, 07:15 PM

Perhaps we should all calm down until we hear what the EU and Irish leaders offer as a solution (if they ever will). Pointing fingers on this forum isn't productive and only creates hate.

Joka, I understand your frustration towards the Irish but you have to try and see it from their point of view also. They didn't know enough about the treaty and their government and the EU arrogantly believed it will be a yes vote. I agree with you though that the reality is the Irish at the moment are the ones slowing this down and something has to be done about it. I don't know what the solution could be, I hope the only option isn't that the Irish have to leave the Union because they are a good people with similar values with the rest of the EU.

That would be optimal yes, but unlike The Maastricht or Nice Treaty, there aren't many areas in which Ireland can be offered opt outs. Ireland can't for example have a permanent commissioner and a rotating presidency while the rest of the EU have rotating commissioners and a permanent president, nor can Ireland can't use a veto when no one else is allowed. So there's not really any compromise to be found, and I certainly don't want the Finnish government to compromise on Finnish interests because The Irish thought they could renegotiate a renegotiated treaty that had been negotiated on for almost a decade.

corran.pl

06-17-2008, 07:21 PM

http://www.wprost.pl/

look for survey on low left

Ankieta - survey

Czy Irlandia dobrze postąpiła, odrzucając w referendum Traktat Lizboński? - Does Ireland has made a good decision rejecting Lisbon Treaty in referendum?

Tak - Yes
Nie - No
Nie wiem - don't know

Zagłosuj - Vote
wyniki ankiety - survey results

Now tell me that I don't understand the democracy and that the majority is supporting the Treaty and only like 5% is against it.

fish&chips

06-17-2008, 07:29 PM

The europhile Poles supporting the treaty might rather not regularily read Wprost. As with all such online polls, this one is certainly not representative.

Sevryn

06-17-2008, 10:38 PM

The EU might as well start from scratch, what's the point of this treaty when we know that in the next few decades EU as it is will morph into something totally different.

EU supports expansion and not just in Europe; this will not be over once Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia, Turkey, Ukraine, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Moldova join.
In addition you will see caucus countries like Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan etc and then the supposed Meditarean Union along with African Union.

Why are the beurorats lieying and trying to sell this as an only European project when they know for a fact that EU in the long run will cease to exist and will be replaced by a much larger trading block where Europeans will end up the minority.

So far you have:
European Union (Advanced stages of completion)

African Union (Beginning Stages)
Meditarean Union (Being Pushed by the EU)
North American Union (Beginning Stages)
Asian Union (Beginning Stages)
Union of South American Nations (Beginning Stages)

And if that is confusing then you still need to account for all the agreements that either led up to, have been implemented and or superceeded by other trading treaties. And then realize that there are agreements that interloc between all of them.

EU in my opinion was just a phase, in the end there will be no such thing as a single Union because the Unions themselves will merge into a single centralized Planetary Government. Granted this wont happened in the next 10 or 20 years but the apparatus is being built for it, how long will this take i have no clue but it took Europe over 60 years to get to this point and it will probably take Europe another 20 or 30 years to finish off expansion on mainland before they move to another phase.

This will happened at some point in the future, maybe a houndred or more years from now and anyone who thinks it wont or that this is all just some conspiracy theory is not keeping up with current events or the reality of the times we live in.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-19-2008, 02:36 PM

I see the traitor Brown has finally sold the UK out to the EU :bash:

Gordon Brown is being hailed as the saviour of the European Union’s Lisbon Treaty here in Brussels today. The Prime Minister’s decision to ignore the Irish No and to push ratification through the unelected House of Lords last night has made him hero of the hour.

http://tinyurl.com/69ywbh

Herman the II

06-19-2008, 02:39 PM

EU: Gordon Brown praised for keeping Lisbon Treaty alive

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2157944/EU-Gordon-Brown-praised-for-keeping-Lisbon-Treaty-alive.html

Excellent..

corran.pl

06-19-2008, 02:39 PM

Prepare to called a member of 5% nationalistic minority p-)

a_very_ex_STAB

06-19-2008, 03:00 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2157944/EU-Gordon-Brown-praised-for-keeping-Lisbon-Treaty-alive.html
Excellent..

So what happened to the previously stated position of not proceeding unless all member states agreed.

The EU don't even bother to conceal their contempt for democracy now.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-19-2008, 03:02 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2157944/EU-Gordon-Brown-praised-for-keeping-Lisbon-Treaty-alive.html
Excellent..

Excellent for traitors :roll:

Excellent for failed politicians looking for a new way to get their snouts into the taxpayer funded trough when they 'retire' from their home countries.

tsuri

06-19-2008, 07:50 PM

The EU don't even bother to conceal their contempt for democracy now.

The people of Ireland have no say in British affairs. The treaty can only enter into force if all parties agree, that does not force the whole ratification process to a halt. There can still be a change of mind in Ireland or a special clause (like the Brits have so many) to get them to accept it.

If the British people do not want that treaty, they have to settle this with their government.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-20-2008, 03:12 AM

The people of Ireland have no say in British affairs. The treaty can only enter into force if all parties agree, that does not force the whole ratification process to a halt. There can still be a change of mind in Ireland or a special clause (like the Brits have so many) to get them to accept it.

If the British people do not want that treaty, they have to settle this with their government.

We were promised a referendum in this country but the British government has gone back on its promise! As there will not be a general election for the next 2 years the British people will have no opportunity to settle it with the government as you put it.

joka

06-20-2008, 05:15 AM

We were promised a referendum in this country but the British government has gone back on its promise! As there will not be a general election for the next 2 years the British people will have no opportunity to settle it with the government as you put it.

The Labour party and The EU aren't the same entity now are they? If the Lisbon treaty should come in to force, and you should find it unbearable, you can vote in a government that will take you out, which by the looks of things, you will.

a_very_ex_STAB

06-20-2008, 05:53 AM

The Labour party and The EU aren't the same entity now are they? If the Lisbon treaty should come in to force, and you should find it unbearable, you can vote in a government that will take you out, which by the looks of things, you will.

I sincerely hope we will in 2 years time

joka

06-20-2008, 06:06 AM

Then what are you moaning about?

a_very_ex_STAB

06-20-2008, 07:03 AM

Then what are you moaning about?

What is there not to moan about in relation to the EU?

Where to start? The list is endless? :)

joka

06-20-2008, 07:52 AM

a_very_ex_STAB

06-20-2008, 08:40 AM

Ah yes, I forgot, you're one of those. You prance around like a spoiled brat crying wolf but when confronted on it, you change subject and become more and more vague. Imagine if you for once stuck by one of your claims, wouldn't that be a sight to see.

So given that I have a business to run and have limited time - where would you like me to start with my list of complaints about the fundamentally undemocratic nature of the EU?

I assume you will have already heard many of the objections/complaints from other people in this forum or others? I don't want to be accused by you of wasting your valuable time with stuff that's already been done to death :roll:

joka

06-20-2008, 08:53 AM

Good luck with your business.

corran.pl

06-20-2008, 02:07 PM

http://www.nczas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/n2294.jpg

Faheywitane

06-20-2008, 03:52 PM

Fair enough, I could tone it down a bit.

I'm not Irish, I do not live in Ireland, my obligations aren't towards Ireland. Right now Ireland is the crazy drunk driver who just put us all on collision course towards a wall, and I have very little interests in seeing you remaining in the car. Quite simply you are a liability. And as much as I (used to) like The Irish, when it comes down to either you or me.. get out.

I wish we could negotiate our way out of this, make a compromise and move forward as one, but The Lisbon treaty was the compromise, this was plan B, you've proven that we can't. And if you think it isn't a wall approaching, if you think you've directed us to a green pasture with birds singing and the one perfect treaty being signed by everyone in the car, it's more than alcohol you've been enjoying.

And it pains me to ask Ireland to leave, I used to think we could all get along and work together, but you blew that illusion right out of the water. The honeymoon is over.

You are a direct and concrete threat to the EU's ability to function, the best thing you can do for The EU is to leave. At best you've decimated people's confidence towards The EU and it's credibility on the world stage, at worst you've sown the seed that is the beginning of the end. If you leave voluntarily, damages can be mitigated. Take one for the team, you'll probably end up re-joining somewhere along the line anyway.

Right........

Im going to go with Jesse here an ask you if you realize how Machiavellian that sounds?? If this is the way the majority of European think, than maybe
we should leave. I've always advocated being a member of a union of European Im curious as to what you want? A European State?? Because if thats it you can keep it, id prefer to be poor and Irish than rich and 'European'.

In the words of Dr de Hindenberg
'Gael mise, nach usál shin.
Gael im croí, geal im meón.
Gael om seacht sinsir Gaél'

and thats the way Id like to keep it thanks.

I find the drunk driver analogy insulting by the way.

daily666

06-20-2008, 08:31 PM

Czech threat looms for EU treaty

EU leaders have admitted that the Czech Republic may not be able to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, which has already been rejected by the Irish.
The declaration from their summit in Brussels notes that the Czech process is on hold due to legal difficulties.
But they said ratification would continue elsewhere, and ruled out renegotiation of the treaty.

But British PM Gordon Brown said the UK could not definitively ratify it until a court ruled on a legal challenge.
It followed a warning from a judge in the case that ratification should be delayed until the ruling was in.
The treaty passed through British parliament this week, but has still to complete formal ratification.
Mr Brown said the judge's intervention would not affect the process, which would not have been completed until after the court judgement anyway.

Bets off

The Brussels summit has been overshadowed by the Irish result, despite efforts to concentrate on food and fuel prices, and now the Czech threat hangs over the treaty.
The EU declaration noted that: "The Czech Republic cannot complete their ratification process until the constitutional court delivers its positive opinion on the accordance of the Lisbon Treaty with the Czech constitutional order".
The Czech parliament's ratification was suspended after the Senate demanded that the court rule on its constitutionality.
The Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek said at the summit that he was not going to try to halt the ratification process in his country.
But he added: "I am not going to force MPs to back Lisbon and I wouldn't bet 100 crowns (£3, $6) on a Czech 'Yes'."

The Czech President, Vaclav Klaus, said after the Irish vote that it had killed off the treaty.
With growing opposition from Euro-sceptics, and key elections due in October, the future of the treaty in the Czech Republic looks uncertain, says the BBC's Oana Lungescu at the summit in Brussels.
'Not just for fun'

The issue has obstructed attempts to get a common position in Brussels - that ratification should continue, while the Irish government takes time to consider its next step.

But President Sarkozy said EU leaders had decided that: "The treaty ratification process should continue in all member states, that's the position now of the council."
"Ireland is a problem, but if we have a second or third problem then it's really going to get difficult," he added.
The treaty must be ratified by all 27 member states to take effect. Nineteen have approved it so far.
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso ruled out renegotiating the reform treaty.

"When a treaty is signed by 27 governments it's not just for fun," he said. "It's inconceivable that a government signs a treaty without the intention of ratifying it. It's a principle of international law."

Mr Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the European Union would not be able to expand further without ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, in what correspondents said appeared to be an attempt to lean on the Czechs, as well as Poland, who are keen on eastward expansion.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk rejected that stance as "unacceptable". Friday's declaration made reference to several other matters, not least the soaring fuel and food prices that have hit consumers and sparked protests across Europe.

EU leaders:

* said the EU Commission should by October "examine the feasibility of taxation measures to smooth the impact of sudden oil price increases"

* threatened tougher sanctions against Zimbabwe amid pre-election violence

* threatened tougher sanctions against Sudan over its refusal to hand over officials wanted for war crimes in Darfur

* delayed a decision on a date for Macedonia to start accession talks with the EU

* agreed to scrap diplomatic sanctions against Cuba imposed in 2003

Stonewall71

06-21-2008, 08:19 AM

http://us.tnpv.net/2008/CND200806/CND2008061861043_PV.jpg

joka

06-26-2008, 09:41 AM

Right........

Im going to go with Jesse here an ask you if you realize how Machiavellian that sounds?? If this is the way the majority of European think, than maybe
we should leave. I've always advocated being a member of a union of European Im curious as to what you want? A European State?? Because if thats it you can keep it, id prefer to be poor and Irish than rich and 'European'.

There may have been some hyperbole in there somewhere but that doesn't change the fact that the Irish vote leaves us in a situation from which there is no good outcome. I happen to think The EU has been very beneficial for Finland, and is instrumental in keeping it that way. The Irish apparently consider it as a spit cup upon which to unload their frustration of, everything. As we have very different ideas of The EU, the question arises, who is in the wrong union?

What the EU should be is an interesting discussion but it has little to do with The Lisbon treaty or the world we live in right now, there's 27 countries that have been trying to come up with a compromise for a decade, Ireland took the ball and walked home.
Personally I think everything that makes sense to decide in Brussels should be decided in Brussels, without taboos or short-sighted self-interests. *And those decision should be made in conjuncture with the states and the people, unlike now where it is only the states that decide. This structure is usually referred to as a federation.

The level of decision making or changes in political institutions have little effect on how I perceive myself. And if an identity is so fragile and insecure that a treaty designed to define the interaction of 27 sovereign states would trample it, then what merits does it have to begin with. If you want to be poor and Irish then there's a very quick fix for that, leave.

In the words of Dr de Hindenberg
'Gael mise, nach usál shin.
Gael im croí, geal im meón.
Gael om seacht sinsir Gaél'

and thats the way Id like to keep it thanks.

I find the drunk driver analogy insulting by the way.

Or in the Words of James Joyce
"If Ireland is to become a new Ireland, she must first become European."

What he should have said is something more in the lines of "For Ireland to become a new Ireland we must first leech of The EU for 30 years, then kick it in the nuts, laugh while doing so and then claim we only did it because we were thinking about the best interests of us all".

Then there's that other Irish quote.
"No man has the right to say to his country, "Thus far shalt thou go and no further"

But gone as those days, now you're just as Island of douches.

futurepilot2004

06-26-2008, 10:02 AM

But gone as those days, now you're just as Island of douches.

Oh that hurt....

joka

06-26-2008, 10:06 AM

Well you can't expect much from the dumbest poster you've ever seen. ;)

joka

06-27-2008, 09:00 AM

No camp insists victory is not a eurosceptic message

And of course, the No campaigners are ecstatic. But they are not depicting their victory as a defeat for the EU - far from it. “this is not a eurosceptic message at all, ” Declan Ganley, the self made businessman and promient No campaigner, told Irish radio. “We want to be at the heart of Europe, but it’s got to be accountable to the will of its citizens.”

Ganley reckons that Irish premier Brian Cowen can go to the EU summit of heads of state and government in Brussels next Thursday and Friday “and look for a better deal for the Irish people” than is contained in the Lisbon treaty.The same guy that said that (http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2008/06/no-camp-insists-victory-is-not-a-eurospectic-message-at-all/), wrote this (http://www.fpri.org/ww/0405.200312.ganley.euconstitution.html) in 2003:

“The EU has served the people of Europe well. It is abundantly apparent that it is capable of much more, which is why we must jealously guard it from those that would try to snatch its levers from us. A United Europe could provide for European peace, prosperity, strength, quality of life, and the ability to build not just a better Europe but a better and safer world. A United States of Europe, structured properly, could benefit Europeans and the world.”

“A federal Europe is a pretty good idea, if it possessed an accountable administration with a clear European identity and position on the world stage; had vested in it only those key disciplines that are best and most efficiently managed on a European level; embraced Europe’s diversity; and devolved as many matters as possible to Europe’s regions.”Apparently Declan Ganley, the founder of Libertas, opposed the Constitutional Treaty and the succeeding Lisbon Treaty because they weren't federalist enough. What I don't get is how he can be so oblivious to the world around him, making the good the enemy of the perfect rarely works. Crippling the EU and giving heavy ammunition to eurosceptics works even worse. How much was the actual structure of The EU and power balance between states vs people part of the debate in Ireland? I doubt it was very much.

The EU's democratic legitimacy derives from it's constituent states, it is not democratically accountable precisely because it is a union of independent member states, if the people could overrule the states then it would de facto be a country. You simply can not have it both ways.

CMNot

06-27-2008, 09:28 AM

tsuri

06-27-2008, 04:54 PM

I would then strongly hope then that we would get a good turnout and vote No. Because I am anti-EU? No, that would be stupid - the EU is the greatest peace project the world has ever seen. I would hope for a conclusive No vote to pressure Our Great Leader. British domestic politics is far more important than EU politics for the time being.

The question will then be: What is the alternative?
A "no" will mean that someone will negotiate the treaty again. That will be your enemy, the government. Not very wise.

At least then I would be governed by constitutional written law, as opposed to the myriad black magic that as an Englishman I am currently ruled by.
Our governments are not in favour of that sadly. They do not want to lose power to the people

The EU's democratic legitimacy derives from it's constituent states, it is not democratically accountable precisely because it is a union of independent member states, if the people could overrule the states then it would de facto be a country. You simply can not have it both ways.

Correct, that is the big question. And as I said before. The Anti EU crowd and the Pro EU people want the same thing.

It is becoming apparent that the EU needs a constitutional assembly to determine it's status. It will probably split in two but we shall see.

CMNot

06-27-2008, 06:03 PM

The question will then be: What is the alternative?
A "no" will mean that someone will negotiate the treaty again. That will be your enemy, the government. Not very wise.

True. Yet if the Law Lords set the legal precedent that ratifying the treaty is by majority vote, the Government is left with two mutually supportive options.

Re-negotiate (a good thing, no treaty should ever be this complex) and if they want to stand any chance of getting it through a referendum, focus a concerted effort to educate the people. Even the Murdoch media has turned on Brown; he will have to spell it out for the people in very simple terms - which is good. I firmly believed an educated people is an empowered people.

But then I believed in fairies when I was 3, so who am I kidding. Politicians :roll:

dava

06-27-2008, 06:17 PM

And what does the EU do to thank them Irish?
Give them some more money. Sigh :)

joka

06-28-2008, 02:00 PM

Joka there is simply no excuse to try to ridicule another nation because some of it's citizens put your nose out of joint. It is offensive, churlish and uncalled for. Although I respect your ability to be able to disparage an entire nation, quite eloquently, in a foreign tongue.

If every nation that took more money from the EU than it gave was given your treatment of being thrown out, the 'union' would be a rough collection of about 5 nations :roll:

I wasn't referring to the 10's of billions Ireland has received in structural funds, the structural funds rank pretty high up there on the list of best return on investment with tax money. Rather, Ireland's tax haven policy, which only works when you're a part of a larger market and only few do it. Though Luxembourg takes much of that blame as well, Monaco too. That comment was probably uncalled for and out of place, I'm just venting steam here.

I'm not usually an asshole, suppose I'm just trying to get the Irish to realize this isn't some trifle matter that you can just shrug off with a "Meh, I don't understand the treaty, I heard they were going to abort our babies, raise our taxes and to top it off our government sucks". We only have one EU and there's not going to be another one, I'm disappointed that the Irish people would so callously plunge it in to a pit. And a pit it is, we just don't know the depth of it yet.

If the Irish no-vote lead to that all the PM's and presidents said "let's all sit down and figure out what exactly it is we want from The EU" and then through some arrangement of referendums and elections we would figure out what it is the people want The EU to be, I would applaud The Irish, it would be the best thing to happen to The EU in a long time. But this just isn't going to happen, the member state governments hold all the power and they aren't letting go of it, they wouldn't be allowed to even if they wanted to, which they don't. When they give us crums like being able to indirectly elect The Commission, We should take it. Living in fantasy land doesn't help anyone.

I would be won over however if the Treaty was re-written to highly benefit Britain, France and Germany - or if integration was to take shape around a Constitution, similarly to the US, that highly Liberal Democratic in nature. At least then I would be governed by constitutional written law, as opposed to the myriad black magic that as an Englishman I am currently ruled by.

The US constitution is very good*, sign me up. But the problem is, you're not going to get 27 countries to sign it, you might get 6 on a good day. Contrary to popular belief there is no conspiracy to create a superstate. Some favour it, most don't.

*Though I'd pick out the US presidential institution. Having the executive branch and head of state under the same umbrella tends to lead to a cult of personality. Having the executive branch elected separately usually leads to it being elected on it's merits and ideas as it's just there to get the job done.

CMNot

06-28-2008, 02:10 PM

Fair play Joka.

But the problem is, you're not going to get 27 countries to sign it, you might get 6 on a good day.

I appreciate this, the realist and the idealist in me are torn pretty wholly by the EU.

I don't think that the (death of the) Lisbon Treaty need be the end of the EU as many see it would be. If the EU remained solely an area of economic integration along previous lines it would still place us (as Europeans) in a position of relative strength globally. It would also continue to act as a deterrent for us annihilating each other again - which was the purpose in the first instance.

joka

06-29-2008, 10:13 AM

Fair play Joka.

I appreciate this, the realist and the idealist in me are torn pretty wholly by the EU.

I don't think that the (death of the) Lisbon Treaty need be the end of the EU as many see it would be. If the EU remained solely an area of economic integration along previous lines it would still place us (as Europeans) in a position of relative strength globally. It would also continue to act as a deterrent for us annihilating each other again - which was the purpose in the first instance.

True, everything need not go to hell even if further integration wasn't achieved, I just consider it incredibly stupid a huge waste of money not to utilize The EU to it's fullest potential. Not to mention that keeping the people out of the EU decision making process leaves room for populism to fester and we could end up with some really bad politicians down the line.

Calanen

06-29-2008, 10:17 AM

I'm not usually an asshole, suppose I'm just trying to get the Irish to realize this isn't some trifle matter that you can just shrug off with a "Meh, I don't understand the treaty, I heard they were going to abort our babies, raise our taxes and to top it off our government sucks". We only have one EU and there's not going to be another one, I'm disappointed that the Irish people would so callously plunge it in to a pit. And a pit it is, we just don't know the depth of it yet.

The EU was going fine before this treaty, I think it will be going fine after it too. I posted a link to the treaty. I was an expert in international law and I found it very heavy going. There was no way anyone in the electorate could understand it outside of Professors in EU law at Cambridge. Get a real treaty, then get back to us.

joka

06-29-2008, 12:55 PM

The EU was going fine before this treaty, I think it will be going fine after it too. I posted a link to the treaty. I was an expert in international law and I found it very heavy going. There was no way anyone in the electorate could understand it outside of Professors in EU law at Cambridge. Get a real treaty, then get back to us.

The treaty isn't written or intended for the people. It's intended to define the interaction of 27 sovereign states, what would a real treaty look like? Short and vague? I can just imagine having Germany, France and The UK running around Europe interpreting things.

I wouldn't mind having a real constitution though.

corran.pl

06-29-2008, 12:59 PM

I see a loads of bull **** – look how USA constitution looks alike, and it seams to work well from quite a time.

joka

06-29-2008, 01:11 PM

I see a loads of bull **** – look how USA constitution looks alike, and it seams to work well from quite a time.

Merde, have you followed the discussion here at all? I'm all for adopting a US style constitution, but that would also make The EU a country. I'm comfortable with that, I suspect you aren't and I know a majority of the EU27 aren't. So where does that leave us?

corran.pl

06-29-2008, 01:12 PM

Merde, have you followed the discussion here at all? I'm all for adopting a US style constitution, but that would also make The EU a country. I'm comfortable with that, I suspect you aren't and I know a majority of the EU27 aren't. So where does that leave us?

And Lisbon Treaty won't make Europe a country?

joka

06-29-2008, 01:26 PM

And Lisbon Treaty won't make Europe a country?

No, it wouldn't. I suggest you look up the word in a dictionary.

joka

06-29-2008, 07:52 PM

It is becoming apparent that the EU needs a constitutional assembly to determine it's status. It will probably split in two but we shall see.

There's no point in arranging anything over again if it's just going to be turned down by one country 10 years from now. Germany and France should break loose from the EU, arrange a federal structure and then allow willing EU states to rally around that.

tsuri

06-29-2008, 08:06 PM

And Lisbon Treaty won't make Europe a country?

That is part of the problem we have today. NOBODY KNOWS WHATS GOING ON :bash:
Read this http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_pl.htm

There's no point in arranging anything over again if it's just going to be turned down by one country 10 years from now. Germany and France should break loose from the EU, arrange a federal structure and then allow willing EU states to rally around that.

Lamy-Verheugen Plan? Second economic and military super power on the planet? Would not work without half of Europe waiting for an Austrian to run for Chancellor and the other half declaring war "just in case".

futurepilot2004

06-30-2008, 04:17 AM

I wouldn't mind having a real constitution though.

You mean like the one the french and dutch voters defeated and that was merely diguised as a treaty this time?? ;)

INAT

06-30-2008, 04:21 AM

You mean like the one the french and dutch voters defeated and that was merely diguised as a treaty this time?? ;)

Yeah isn't this just the EU constitution rewritten as a "treaty" they are trying to sell? Looks like they are gonna keep trying to push this until
people vote the way they want them to.

Good job Ireland in saying no.

Calanen

06-30-2008, 05:13 AM

The treaty isn't written or intended for the people. It's intended to define the interaction of 27 sovereign states, what would a real treaty look like? Short and vague? I can just imagine having Germany, France and The UK running around Europe interpreting things.

I wouldn't mind having a real constitution though.

Well why would you expect them to vote for it? It needs to be written concisely, in plain english wording. At the moment, it is meaningless. Why would the Irish public vote for a treaty that they dont understand? If you want them to agree, you need to make it understandable.

DS73

06-30-2008, 06:01 AM

Well why would you expect them to vote for it? It needs to be written concisely, in plain english wording. At the moment, it is meaningless. Why would the Irish public vote for a treaty that they dont understand? If you want them to agree, you need to make it understandable.

Lol. This treaty is targeting mainly small countries limiting even more their direct influence on EU politics. Irish international politics is next to not existing. In the same moment they (just like brits) are hard nationalists and have an island mentality. They don't feel like and don't really belong to EU crowd.

I am really in a favor of multilayer legislation system, where members can choose the fitting level of interdependence and common laws. The best would be some independent negotiations on individual level between Strasbourg and countries members.
I am pretty sure that EU will come to that, and very soon. (of course polls will be against it and as usually will make troubles...). 27 is just too many to be uniform.
In any group of more than 8 individuals, group always split up in the smaller
friends packs. It is inevitable. And there is nothing bad in that.

corran.pl

06-30-2008, 06:43 AM

It is not like most of the people in EU want to be in EU crowd, most of them just don't care or don't know.

DS73

06-30-2008, 06:56 AM

It is not like most of the people in EU want to be in EU crowd, most of them just don't care or don't know.

Don't assume.
Fr, Nl, Sp, Ge, Be are pretty comfortable to be together. Scandinavians are going fast in the same direction.
It is started even before Napoleon times, and definitely is not going to stop now. There is plenty of common staff to share, and most of the people who bother to travel do see that.

It is studied and discussed to death already. There are countries where people are comfortable with the idea of being "europeans", and there are countries where national motto "us against them" prevails. Your country is clearly in the second branch.

CMNot

06-30-2008, 11:42 AM

Don't assume.

Fr, Nl, Sp, Ge, Be are pretty comfortable to be together.

Zing! Hoorah for sweeping generalisations.

Why be surprised when Germanic countries don't mind being together; or Scandinavians for that matter. That's the easy part. The hard part is splicing protestant and catholic nations together, or religious with the secular.

muck

06-30-2008, 01:40 PM

Source (German only) (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,563041,00.html)

The German Federal President has refused to sign the law passed by the German lower house which ratifyied the Lisbon Treaty on behalf of Germany. A bill must be signed by the President to become valid, and by law the President has to sign every bill unless he thinks it violates the German constitution.

Mr. Koehler said he would not sign the ratification bill until Germany's supreme court had reviewed the bill. The Constitutional Court has received many complaints about the treaty and the missing referendum about it, among the complainants are notable persons such as some Members of Parliament. The trial will leastwise last until 2009, if not longer.

Now that's a very interesting development.

joka

06-30-2008, 02:05 PM

You mean like the one the french and dutch voters defeated and that was merely diguised as a treaty this time?? ;)

No not that Constitutional treaty that 26 million people voted in favour of, that was never a real constitution to begin with, it was a multilateral treaty that some genius named a constitutional treaty. If you've noticed we've been talking about The US constitution here, I was referring to that.

On a side note, Jesus you people and your sound bites, you know your ideologically bankrupt when all you have to cling on to is a rhetoric trick.

Krikke.D

06-30-2008, 02:15 PM

The hard part is splicing protestant and catholic nations together, or religious with the secular.
many will agree those are minor issues here in europe, in my own experience, our long history of religious violence has learned us to consider ones religious convictions as private and not very relevant to political matters...although there are some exceptions, Northern Ireland for example.
languages on the other hand can be a pretty delicate issue (take Basque Country or Belgium for example, allot of flemish belgians feel more related to the dutch than to french speaking belgians)

DS73

06-30-2008, 04:10 PM

Zing! Hoorah for sweeping generalisations.

It is an educated opinion.

Why be surprised when Germanic countries don't mind being together; or Scandinavians for that matter. That's the easy part. The hard part is splicing protestant and catholic nations together, or religious with the secular.First please mention religious nation from that list. I am very curios.

germanic countries are pretty fine being together. There is more "internal" tourism then to other countries. Internal migration (both working and family) is also higher. Also Fr and Sp are very attractive places for work and recreation (both vacation and retirement). Those with language knowledge easily move to these countries. French and spanish are less mobile, but the only real problem is language barriers and this (at least for Spain) is changing very fast.

Cooperation (also on local level between border areas) among germanic countries is fantastic (EU "regional politics" was grown from exactly that experience).

Scandinavia is collection of small countries, hence popullated by hard nationalists. But things are changing very fast, and those who go abroad become "Europeans" infinitely faster then polls and brits for example.

Of course Import-export exchange volumes are corresponding to political actions and population attitudes btw

CMNot

06-30-2008, 04:33 PM

Now that's a very interesting development.

If it fails to get through Germany, the Treaty is deader than dead. The only thing more deceased will be a need to talk about it.

Alexandr

06-30-2008, 04:43 PM

joka

06-30-2008, 05:59 PM

So Russians don't like the idea of a strong EU, stop the press.

Alexandr

06-30-2008, 06:07 PM

So Russians don't like the idea of a strong EU, stop the press.

Uhm..not strong,but unpredictable and self-destructing.Imagn EU president as for example = UK sitizen,some Mahmed Aby Ali (or some-like this,not mean to offend someone)...totalitarism being builded on tolerance is wicked.
Terror of democracy and equality....
If you not tolerant enought - we will teach you how to be quiet.
Thats worser than East totalitarism - at least its natural over there.
And Europe under Lisbon treaty can drown in some sick perverted swamp of non-existed values.

joka

06-30-2008, 08:02 PM

Well why would you expect them to vote for it? It needs to be written concisely, in plain english wording. At the moment, it is meaningless. Why would the Irish public vote for a treaty that they dont understand? If you want them to agree, you need to make it understandable.

I would expect them snap out of fantasy world, recognize reality and not apply standards to the EU it isn't intended to meet. It isn't an union of the people, the treaty isn't written for them, this is the compromise we could muster, if it isn't good enough: door, there. Why do we keep having this same discussion over and over?

I would be interested in hearing your opinion on what you think the treaty could look like and what it is about the Lisbon treaty should be changed. Note. Not your opinion on what kind of treaty you would like, but taking in to account the different parameter that restrict the treaty, what could it look like at best?

Billy No Mates

07-01-2008, 03:44 AM

If it fails to get through Germany, the Treaty is deader than dead. The only thing more deceased will be a need to talk about it.

It would be delicously ironic if it was the Germans who put the final nail in this particular coffin .

corran.pl

07-01-2008, 04:47 AM

im little bit late,but...thanks Ireland!
Europa with one parlament and one goverment scares me much more that all extremisit in world history together.And not as possible enemy,but as our peacefull neighbour it much more scary it that way.
Future is ugly.

some discussions from EU parlament video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QVeMBNB0cII

Thanks. nice video.

And I think tht you should fear (not that I'm glad of it) - EU as any socialistic regime will serch for an external enemy to cover its internal problems.

DS73

07-01-2008, 09:24 PM

Uhm..not strong,but unpredictable and self-destructing.Imagn EU president as for example = UK sitizen,some Mahmed Aby Ali (or some-like this,not mean to offend someone)...totalitarism being builded on tolerance is wicked.
Terror of democracy and equality....
If you not tolerant enought - we will teach you how to be quiet.
Thats worser than East totalitarism - at least its natural over there.
And Europe under Lisbon treaty can drown in some sick perverted swamp of non-existed values.

Imagine russian president some Kadyrov VI...That is more possible.

EU is being designed to beindependent from individualities. It needs nor bright politicians nor charismatic leaders. All decisions are made in very long "consultations" runs. It is bureaucratic creation and is ruled by them.

EU is slow because of that, it is hard to get damaged because of that. Proposed treaty was designed to make EU laws "evolution" faster, more flexible and less depending on caprices of some minor members. (Hence limiting unanimous votes requirements to very few really important subjects).
The fact, that the treaty most possibly won't be signed now, is not so bad. There was some rush to "fix" imaginary damage from "the constitution project fiasco", and timelines were chosen not because of political necessities but to "close page and open new one".
Possibly before retirement of some bureaucrats and politiians. Some people were definitely obsessed with pushing the treaty "now".

But of course I understand russians' frustration with new EU. Russians are loosing influence not only in WP area but even in south republics like Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. It would be much more easy to deal with just Germany, to sell crap to fins "to keep the trade balance", to hold russian bureaucrats in Austria because "Austria is neutral" and to bribe french politicians because "they decide". But it is all in the past now. The international politics of european nations is going to be more and more unified and coordinated. With treaty signed or not it is not really relevant anymore.

And the fact, that exactly such small and week country like Ireland sank ratification process, is sweet. Very good illustration why these changes will be done.