Who would have though Zimbabwe would end up like this?

[Ed Robinson]

In April of 1979, the first fully democratic election in Zimbabwe history’s occurred. Of the eligible black voters, 64% participated, braving the threat of terrorist attacks by Mr. Mugabe’s Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front party, which managed to kill 10 people. Prior to the election, Mr. Mugabe had issued a death list with 50 individuals he named as “traitors, fellow-travelers, and puppets of the Ian Smith regime, opportunistic running-dogs and other capitalist vultures.” Nevertheless, Bishop Abel Muzorewa of the United Methodist Church emerged victorious and became prime minister of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia, as the new country was called.
Yet the Carter administration, led by the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Andrew Young, would have none of it. Mr. Young referred to Mr. Muzorewa, one of the very few democratically elected leaders on the African continent, as the head of a “neo-fascist” government. Mr. Carter refused to meet Mr. Muzorewa when the newly elected leader visited Washington to seek support from our country, nor did he lift sanctions that America had placed on Rhodesia as punishment for the colony’s unilateral declaration of independence from the British Empire in 1965.
Messrs. Carter and Young would only countenance a settlement in which Mr. Mugabe, a Marxist who had repeatedly made clear his intention to turn Zimbabwe into a one-party state, played a leading role. Mr. Young, displaying the willful naiveté that came to characterize Mr. Carter’s mindset, told the London Times that Mr. Mugabe was a “very gentle man” whom he “can’t imagine ... ever pulling the trigger on a gun to kill anyone.”

[Backwoodshunter]

Is it surprising that Zimbabwe is now like this?

[T3ngu]

The Rhodesians i have known over the years certainly predicted the long term ruin of "zimbabwe". Im surprised that it all hasn't fallen in a complete heap yet.

We have a number of Zimbabwian farmers move to the area where i live as the climatic conditions are the same for farming. All the ones i have known have been really nice people.

[Backwoodshunter]

Its like the seasons, another despot ruler comes to power, sooner or later its gotta end, and usually badly.

[Connaught Ranger]

Seeing as the dictator Mugabe’s and his gang have no legal "tribal" or ethical claim to the lands as it was colonized and developed by whites over the years, there were no local tribes holding land in the region.

It was just a case of "we want what whitey has, but we are not prepared to work for it", well the got it, and they ruined it, and now the hand will be out begging for social and economic aid, when the dictator and his gang are finally removed from power maybe, hopefully we will learn just how much money he and his cronies managed to steal from their people and stash in foreign bank accounts.

[Billy No Mates]

We have a number of Zimbabwian farmers move to the area where i live as the climatic conditions are the same for farming. All the ones i have known have been really nice people.

The cleaning firm we have in at work is owned and manned by black Zimbabwians they all seem personable and intelligent and the guy running the show is university educated and obviously overqualified for the work he is doing,you've got to worry for a country that seems hell bent on riding its self of anyone that is any good it just can't end well .

[PeterRJG]

The trouble is, the black Zimbabweans I've known, mainly students in the US on student visas, don't really see there's a problem back home. The ethnic cleansing that was carried out by Mugabe in the 80's was "a tribal thing".

It sadly speaks volumes when a person blithely accepts thousands of murders perpetrated by their own kind against their own kind, but the minute the white man steps in...need I say what happens then?

With this indifference, is it any wonder tinpot dictators like Mugabe flourish?

[boone]

Has Zimbabwe ever had anyone else as a leader other than Mugabe and ZANU since 1979?

[playtym]

Has Zimbabwe ever had anyone else as a leader other than Mugabe and ZANU since 1979?

No. He's Robert Mugabe, president for life, and it doesn't look like he's going to be going anywhere until his life is over.

[PeterRJG]

Canaan Banana, but he was never really in charge. Mugabe has been Big Chief #1 since Smith left.

[Billy No Mates]

Has Zimbabwe ever had anyone else as a leader other than Mugabe and ZANU since 1979?

No its all theyve ever known,Mugabes always been barking but apparently his first wife managed to curb some of his worst traits,his current missus seems to encourage them .

[Bushranger]

you've got to worry for a country that seems hell bent on riding its self of anyone that is any good it just can't end well .

This is pretty standard for any country that has internal problems, anybody educated or wanting to improve their country usually are the first ones to leave, when in london i worked with 2 blokes from sierra leone both with Uni degree & top blokes they were picking up glasses in a bar for £5. Can only hope things change in Zim.

[Hellfish]

Things won't change in Zim. If, and this is a big IF, Morgan Tsvangirai wrests control of the country from Mugabe, he'll end up just as corrupt as Mugabe was. Maybe more so.

[Mu-Meson]

Things won't change in Zim. If, and this is a big IF, Morgan Tsvangirai wrests control of the country from Mugabe, he'll end up just as corrupt as Mugabe was. Maybe more so.

X2. Sad but true. His supporters are likely to do a little "tribal thing" to the Zanu-PF if they get in power.

[Hellfish]

Or ZANU-PF will go to the hills and start some kind of guerrilla war, which will end up escalating as Tsvangirai gets frustrated with a lack of success.

[Ed Robinson]

What you will find is that the overseas students will be the sons of the ruling elite from ZANU PF.
Who else from Zimbabwe could afford to leave and to live in a foreign country as a student?

It is no wounder that South Africa is quiet on the problems in Zimbabwe. Both are run by Communist Gorilla fighters who took power at the point of a gun.
From the ANC and ZANU point of view, they fought to take power, why should they just hand it over because of an election? If you want freedom,fight for it like they did.

[Bushranger]

Its a Pity Kevin Woods didnt succeed with the assasination attempt back in the 80s

[Ed Robinson]

If you can, get hold of a book called "See you in November" by Peter STIFF. From Galago publishers.

Its a bit hard to get but well worth the read.
It ties in with Selous Scouts Top Secret War and " The elite"

[Connaught Ranger]

What you will find is that the overseas students will be the sons of the ruling elite from ZANU PF.
Who else from Zimbabwe could afford to leave and to live in a foreign country as a student?

It is no wounder that South Africa is quiet on the problems in Zimbabwe. Both are run by Communist Gorilla fighters who took power at the point of a gun.
From the ANC and ZANU point of view, they fought to take power, why should they just hand it over because of an election? If you want freedom,fight for it like they did.

I don't think a Civil War is the solution to achieve what most Zimbabweans want, equal shares for all citizens and not just Mugabe's band of thugs.

A civil war only begets more violence and intolerance and creates long lasting hatred on all sides.

At the end of the day probably post Mugabe the political parties will have to sit down and talk it out.

Connaught Ranger:)

[the_hog]

Bishop Muzorewa was the president during the interim period after Smith but before mugabe, he was seen as to much of a liberal and "white pupet" so he never had a chance to stay on.

[ren0312]

OT but do you people think that the disinvestment campaign by large multinational companies in the 1980's did more harm than good to South Africa, I mean without it, it is doubtfull whether the Apartheid regime would have fallen as early as it has.

[PeterRJG]

OT but do you people think that the disinvestment campaign by large multinational companies in the 1980's did more harm than good to South Africa, I mean without it, it is doubtfull whether the Apartheid regime would have fallen as early as it has.

It arguably worked, but guess who the disinvestment affected the most? You guessed it, the black African guy on the street.

Seizing the ZANU-PF's assets and freezing their bank accounts would have larger effect, IMHO.

Still, neither disinvestment nor bank account freezes are going to happen. Zimbabwe's govt, repulsive and self-destructive as it is, is not "evil" enough for the world to take these measures. There's no WMD's, white men dominating and segregating poor black men, no exporting of the 'revolution', no strategic benefit at all to unseat Mugabe.

And, as I keep repeating, no white majority govt. in the world is about to topple a black African leader. If Australia, New Zealand, UK or some such did invade and remove Mugabe from his catbird seat, how do you think the world would react?

[Hellfish]

Do you think Obama would have the credibility to do so?

[the_hog]

Some how I dont think Zim is anywhere near Obamas list of things to do.

[Hellfish]

It was a rhetorical question.

[Rudolph]

Have a white farmer murder Mugabe, U.N. will be there in 2 seconds.

[Flagg]

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

I agree that it is extremely unlikely that a Western or Commonwealth led effort to topple Mugabe will happen, for lots of reasons like:

*Existing operational overstretch

*It would play into the hands of Mugabe and his ZANU-PF thugs in redirecting the populace's anger away from his regime and towards the invaders.

*Perceived inability for "wealthy western white colonialists" to put boots on the ground IF it is a viable option.

I wonder if it would be possible to see a Commonwealth led....meaning UK,NZ,OZ,Canada,and South African leadership and deployment core.....effort, BUT with a "wrapper" consisting of African Commonwealth or African Union troops to provide an African face/perception/solution to the world for impartial-ish security until a proper election can be held, any organized undermining influences eliminated, and create a stable security environment while economic aid gets injected to begin starting over again.

It's quite troubling to see Mbeke, who has apparantly been to Zimbabwe three times in the last month, unable(or just unwilling?) to affect change as he probably possesses the greatest single perceived ability to influence events in Zimbabwe.

I have seen how funny and bizarre 3rd world politics can be when viewed through western white eyes........it would be quite interesting/enlightening to learn what the average Joe & Jane Zimbabwean thinks about the situation....I wonder if it mirrors the thoughts of posters here....or are their opinions of THEIR country quite different from ours???

[Hellfish]

I wonder if it would be possible to see a Commonwealth led....meaning UK,NZ,OZ,Canada,and South African leadership and deployment core.....effort, BUT with a "wrapper" consisting of African Commonwealth or African Union troops to provide an African face/perception/solution to the world for impartial-ish security until a proper election can be held, any organized undermining influences eliminated, and create a stable security environment while economic aid gets injected to begin starting over again.



As I understand it, all of those Commonwealth nations are either overstretched right now, or can't afford another commitment. In the case of South Africa, from what I hear, practically their entire army in undeployable due to inadequate training, funds and various personnel issues (HIV). If a saffie can correct me on that, I'd like to know, as I imagine the SANDF will have a leading role in any kind of operation in Zimbabwe.

I'm curious to take a poll here... what would y'all see as likely outcomes if the following happened:

1. Mugabe wins the run-off election by a landslide (probably not freely nor fairly)

2. The MDC manages to win the runoff

3. The MDC manages to win the runoff but Mugabe dismisses the victory and clings to power

4. A Zim civil war

[Alfacentori]

As I understand it, all of those Commonwealth nations are either overstretched right now, or can't afford another commitment. In the case of South Africa, from what I hear, practically their entire army in undeployable due to inadequate training, funds and various personnel issues (HIV). If a saffie can correct me on that, I'd like to know, as I imagine the SANDF will have a leading role in any kind of operation in Zimbabwe.

I'm curious to take a poll here... what would y'all see as likely outcomes if the following happened:

1. Mugabe wins the run-off election by a landslide (probably not freely nor fairly)

2. The MDC manages to win the runoff

3. The MDC manages to win the runoff but Mugabe dismisses the victory and clings to power

4. A Zim civil war

I'm going for 3 or 4

Alfa

[Fiber]

I would guess 3.
I don't think there is a powerful opposition to create a civil war. It think a genocide is more likely then civil war.

[jebelcat]

Of the inner circle many have historically referenced biblical names;
Augustine, Constantine, Joseph and Gabriel. And like so many men through
the ages they have lost their way. Today they stand on the precipice,
raging against their fortunes and time. Their feet claw at the edge of the
cliff as they try mightily to avoid the abyss.

They sit huddled together in quiet communion, each day marked by another
compromise of their humanity. They are lost souls sitting like satyrs at
the feet of Beelzebub, each of them no longer thinking of what they could
have done, but reacting like animals cornered. There is pure savagery in
those reactions for their remaining time is so very short.

Constantine Chiwengwa and his wife Jocelyn are a perfect pair. He waddles
about in costumes so entirely inane they would remind one of a caricature.
Bedecked in unearned but bestowed medals and ribbonry, he's a perfect
buffoon of a man with such pretense its hard not to laugh. His main sins
are ambition and greed, but these are not the least of his weaknesses.
Exceedingly poor taste in women would be his most egregious error. His wife
Jocelyn, an illiterate peasant girl, is a former prostitute. The girlish
looks of yesteryear have long faded, replaced by a vapid desire and a
shreaking voice. She is the perfect model of the aging first wife that the
tired old man cannot believe he is left with-an aging model decades past any
appeal. She is famous for saying that its been thirty years since she
tasted white blood. But he commands an army he is afraid to send into the
field, uncertain of their loyalties and terrified of their guns being turned
against the tired regime.

Joseph Chinotimba is a psychopathic peasant who calls himself the leader of
the 'war veterans'. Chinotimba (aka Chinos) never stood battle in the
independence wars or even took part in them, and the young 18 and 19 year
old 'war veterans' he purportedly leads were not even born at the time of
independence or the war. Wreaking of stale whiskey and dressed in rags, he
is a man of reactionary violence who feels this short step up the ladder
from his inconsequential beginnings & failed domestic positions, is a badge
he must invoke at all times. But ravaged by AIDS, illiterate and too angry
to be of any use to reasonable men, he has been chosen by the depraved to
lead the slaughter of the citizenry and to lead the illiterate aimless
street children against the rural people, their wives and children. A
coward who once cowed at being slapped by a bus driver, his is the rage of
an inconsequential bullyboy; a man who strikes out at everything because his
whole life is one of succeeding at nothing. But the support of true war
veterans was lost long ago, and the depth of loyalty among the dispatched
street thugs is shallow as an african river in September.

Perence Shiri, commander of the Zimbabwean Air Force, is Robert Gabriel's
first cousin.

He has referred to himself as 'The Black Jesus'. It was he who commanded
the infamous

Fifth Brigade from 1983 to l984, which slaughtered some 26,000 Ndebele
during one of the saddest periods of Zimbabwean history. In the late l990s
and early 21st century years, it was he who organized the farm invasions by
war veterans that destroyed the economy and the agrarian sector.

Augustine Chihruri is head of the national police and complicit in every
move the securocrats make. His tenure has been marked by total fealty to
Robert Gabriel and a blind eye towards the rule of law or enforcement of
even the most basic needs of the citizenry. Men, women and children are
butchered and his response is to say he is under orders not to respond.
The Zanu-PF "militias" that operate with impunity in the country side do so
because Chihruri will not stand against them. Many of his ill-paid and
un-trained police share sympathies with the opposition because they are
friends and family to the beaten and brutalized.

These are the most violent and desperate of Mugabe's rapidly deteriorating
circle, but they are but cogs in the Hades' wheel that is Robert Gabriel
Mugabe. Educated by Catholic Jesuits and having attended university, Robert
Gabriel did no actual fighting in the time of the war for independence. He
was a backbencher and avowed Marxist., monitoring the accounting and
finances of the rebels. The real war was fought by men such as Zapu's
Joshua Nkomo, the man he cleverly lured into a "unity" government and then
eliminated.

Much has been made of Mugabe's early years in leadership and the healthy
(for Africa) beneficial things accomplished. His principle achievement was
the development of an education system now in tatters. But Robert Gabriel
lost his soul long ago and fell under the spell of his own visage.
Zimbabweans tell of a long ago premonition that tells of his downfall and
violent end. Mugabe, a superstitious man, was terrified of this story
which came again across the countryside just before the March elections.
Unable to sleep for days, he sent his wife and family abroad.

Robert Gabriel was hopelessly lost in the international arena. He survived
for a long time on the favor of Fidel's Cuba, communist Russia and North
Korea, but he has no understanding of markets, international agreements or
how the rest of the world operates. And all of those communist supporters
eventually vanished. He parades around in 4,000 usd custom suits and enjoys
driving in motorcades in his armoured 700,000 usd vehicle with full military
adoption, but he is an isolated and bereft soul without friends. At 84 his
eye sight is failing and he has prostate cancer, a condition no longer
treatable in his own country because the medical sector is without even the
most basic applications, let alone the professionals who could treat him,
all of whom have all left the country.

From the center of the web he has spun, he screams decades old sophistry
about the British and the whites. Never mind that only 28,000 whites remain
in a population of eleven million (three million of all hues have fled the
country). The demons he sees from yesteryear are not real, but the ones he
has created in his own mind are very much looming on the horizon, perhaps
more so in the dark and vacuous rooms of his personal mansion. He is a
lonely and angry man. His second wife, Grace, is forty years his junior and
while now in her mid-forties, her dalliances with multiple lovers and
consorts are well known and certainly an embarrassment in his dotage.

Having destroyed the economy, the electric & water services, banking
institutions, the justice sector, the health sector, the roads, and the
agrarian sector, there is nothing left to tear down. With inflation at a
guess-timated 1.6 million per cent per year, exports at zero, factories at
less than eight per cent of capacity, and unemployment at 85 per cent... the
collapse is so complete there is no return from Armeggedon without the aid
of foreign entities. And that is not going to happen while he remains the
head of government, even if it is likely a titular position at this
juncture. His country faced with starvation, he has banned all relief
agencies from supplying even basic food stocks, terming them agents of the
west and his political opponents.

This senile shell of a mad man has presided over the largest and most
complete destruction of a single country in the last millenium. Other
countries in history have been over-run or conquered by war, but this total
destruction from within is without precedent. Like Ceausescu at the end,
Mugabe's ending will be swift and without regret. Most of all, it is the
death and persecution of its citizenry that Zimbabwe will never understand
or forget.


A Zimbabwean

[Fade]

Mugabe says 'only God' can remove him from office

BULAWAYO, Zimbabwe -- Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe said Friday "only God" can remove him from office, in comments ahead of next week's tense run-off election.

"The MDC will never be allowed to rule this country -- never ever," Mr. Mugabe said in a meeting with local business people, referring to the opposition Movement for Democratic Change.

"Only God who appointed me will remove me, not the MDC, not the British."
Story continued.... (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=602612)

[PeterRJG]

Mugabe, the one-time committed Marxist, now says only God will remove him.

[Flagg]

Mugabe, the one-time committed Marxist, now says only God will remove him.

God must be on holiday or taking a nap.......cause the God I was taught in 1970's Catholic School would be sending some pipehitting angels of death to have a "quiet word" with an 84 year old mass-murdering tyrant with prostate cancer.

I really do hope karma is a stabby/angry b!tch

[loganinkosovo]

Who would have though Zimbabwe would end up like this?


Anyone with half a brain.

This is the final outcome of all Marxism/Communism....a Bloody, Violent Dictatorship.

[PhiltheFish]

A: Lightbulbs

[Malleus]

Zimbabwe opposition to pull out

Zimbabwe's opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai has decided to pull out of the presidential run-off on 27 June, party officials have told the BBC.

The decision, taken at a meeting of the leadership of the Movement for Democratic Change in Harare, means Robert Mugabe will remain as president.

The MDC says the decision comes after at least 70 of its supporters have been killed in the run-up to the poll.

President Robert Mugabe says the opposition is behind the violence.

On Sunday, the opposition was due to stage a rally in the capital - the highlight of the campaign.

But supporters of Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF occupied the stadium and roads leading up to it - and reportedly beat up opposition activists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7467990.stm

[Rudolph]

Zimbabwe opposition to pull out

Zimbabwe's opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai has decided to pull out of the presidential run-off on 27 June, party officials have told the BBC.

The decision, taken at a meeting of the leadership of the Movement for Democratic Change in Harare, means Robert Mugabe will remain as president.

The MDC says the decision comes after at least 70 of its supporters have been killed in the run-up to the poll.

President Robert Mugabe says the opposition is behind the violence.

On Sunday, the opposition was due to stage a rally in the capital - the highlight of the campaign.

But supporters of Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF occupied the stadium and roads leading up to it - and reportedly beat up opposition activists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7467990.stm

Well, I hope the South African and Western governments are now happy. In a very rare display of restraint, a moderate, if flawed, political group tried using Western political devices to come to power and unable to function as such under a tyrannical government they have given up a peaceful handover to a democracy. Now, one can only assume various rebel groups and/or militias will come into play, each scrambling for power to topple Mugabe and start another violent history in a country that cannot handle any more as it is.

[Dinges]

Well, I hope the South African and Western governments are now happy. In a very rare display of restraint, a moderate, if flawed, political group tried using Western political devices to come to power and unable to function as such under a tyrannical government they have given up a peaceful handover to a democracy. Now, one can only assume various rebel groups and/or militias will come into play, each scrambling for power to topple Mugabe and start another violent history in a country that cannot handle any more as it is.


And all of it right on our doorstep. Can you just imagine the gun-running on the border if this tiff hots up. This is not going to be a picnic.

[Hellfish]

I don't think anything will happen. MDC can't out terrorize their government. They're gonna fade away and nothing will be shown for their efforts.

[Dinges]

I hear you Hellfish6.

But do not discount the Matabele anger and frustration after what the fifth brigade did. The MDC ( no angels themself ) have been touching on that open wound.

I wait ....

[Hellfish]

The Matabeles are a tiny, tiny minority. Genocide does that to people.

[Dinges]

As History has proven time and time again. A group of people with enough impetus and controled anger can make the world go "Hello"

I am not an oracle. But I know for a fact. Apart from what media ideas abound - Africa is a tough country.

Africa will always surprise you - for better or worse.

[Rudolph]

In case it hasn't been mentioned, regarding the title of the thread: Who would have though Zimbabwe would end up like this?

Every white person in Zimbabwe and South Africa, my dear... ;) To whomever it may concern.

And Hellfish, about a 5th of the country are Ndebele, so it's not that small an amount of people. And I doubt that all the Shonas support Mugabe.

The best resolution would involve a Shona led rebellion.

[Hellfish]

I thought the figure of 20% Ndebele was pre-genocide?

[Dinges]

On a flight to London five years ago a fellow Shona passenger told me that a ZANU-PF person will make Bob go bye-bye. The whole clay feet argument all over again.

[Rudolph]

I thought the figure of 20% Ndebele was pre-genocide?

Out of millions, the genocide claimed *only* about 20,000 lives. Today the total pop. stands at 20 million, back then it was still a large enough tribe to survive easily with that loss.