First Japanese warship since WW2 arrives in China

[J-10]

Page last updated at 10:28 GMT, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 11:28 UK
A Japanese warship has arrived in southern China for a five-day port call, the first such visit by a Japanese navy ship since World War II.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44773000/jpg/_44773085_aaaaaasaza_ap226b.jpg
The Sazanami sailed into port in the city of Zhanjiang seven months after a Chinese warship, the Shenzhen, visited Japan.

The reciprocal port calls were agreed at a meeting last year between senior military figures from the two nations.

This one comes amid improvements in the often tense China-Japan relationship.

Earlier this month, the two sides struck a deal to jointly develop gas fields both claim in the East China Sea, resolving a protracted bilateral dispute.

That agreement followed a visit to Japan in May by Chinese President Hu Jintao, the first by a Chinese leader in a decade.

'Friendship and trust'

Chinese state television showed pictures of the Sazanami, a destroyer, arriving in port.

The Japanese vessel is carrying relief supplies for the victims of last month's Sichuan earthquake.

The crew will hand over 300 blankets, more than 2,500 pre-packaged meals and hygiene masks during their stay.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao rejected the idea that the visit could ignite lingering anti-Japanese sentiment.

The visit would "help enhance the friendship and mutual trust between the two countries", he told a news conference in Beijing.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7470518.stm

[yomex21]

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.jpg
(The Sankei Shimbun & Sankei Digital (http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.htm) Photo (http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.htm))



Chinese naval warship arrives in Tokyo for visit.

The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA)'s navy missile destroyer "Shenzhen"arrives at Tokyo for a 4-day goodwill visit to Japan, Nov. 28, 2007. It's the first time for PLA vessels to visit Japan.

Chinaview (http://www.chinaview.cn/index.htm)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/28/content_7158181.htm

[J-10]

When I read Japanese news, I find the Sazanami「漣 さざなみ」 is a frigate[護衛艦], not a destroyer[駆逐艦].
http://mainichi.jp/select/world/news/images/20080625k0000m010124000p_size5.jpg
http://www.asahi.com/international/update/0624/TKY200806240340.html

[Ordie]

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.jpg
(The Sankei Shimbun & Sankei Digital (http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.htm) Photo (http://sankei.jp.msn.com/photos/world/china/071128/chn0711281315002-l1.htm))

Interesting to see the warm reception given to the Japanesep-)

Good photo comparision of both ships.

[plato]

more pictures:
http://i0.sinaimg.cn/jc/2008-06-24/U2123P27T1D506779F3DT20080624192155.jpg
http://i3.sinaimg.cn/jc/2008-06-24/U2123P27T1D506779F26DT20080624203503.jpg
http://i0.sinaimg.cn/jc/2008-06-24/U2123P27T1D506779F319DT20080624203503.jpg
http://i3.sinaimg.cn/jc/2008-06-24/U2123P27T1D506779F318DT20080624203503.jpg

Japanese brought some goods for the earthquake victims.

[matthew.manhorn]

Greetings Japan! We Chinese have no problems with the Japanese navy, Japanese navy is always considered to be one of the world's most successful naval powers due to their brilliant naval tactics. Since the most disgusting atrocities were only committed by the garbage Japanese ground forces. We have nothing against Japan's navy.

Thanks for the warm supplies!

[gaijinsamurai]

I hope that relations between the governments, and more importantly the people, of China and Japan improve.

[Hollis]

I hope that relations between the governments, and more importantly the people, of China and Japan improve.


My thoughts too. In some ways we have the prospect of good things ahead.

[Bro Jangles]

i remember taking a tour of a chicom ship that made a port call in Navsta everett a few years back, it was cool, but i was nervous of the 4 foot 9 sailor with an ak watching me.

is it just me or does that Japaneses frigate look like a miniature spruance?
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm112/bravo-juliet/300px-USS_David_R_Ray_DD-971_with_A.jpg

[Ghostwolf]

When I read Japanese news, I find the Sazanami「漣 さざなみ」 is a frigate[護衛艦], not a destroyer[駆逐艦].


Japanese internal politics, they are doing this because it would sound less politically sensitive, just like when they refer to the Hyuga class helicopter carrier as "helicopter destroyer(DDH)".

Sazanami is a Takanami class ASW destroyer by classification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanami_class_destroyer

[Ordie]

Since the most disgusting atrocities were only committed by the garbage Japanese ground forces. We have nothing against Japan's navy.

The Chinese just can't let go of the past.

[plato]

The Chinese just can't let go of the past.

I think Chinese can, and many of them already did let go. This all depend on how willing the CCP wants to let the Chinese people to let go of the past.

[J-10]

Japanese internal politics, they are doing this because it would sound less politically sensitive, just like when they refer to the Hyuga class helicopter carrier as "helicopter destroyer(DDH)".

Sazanami is a Takanami class ASW destroyer by classification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanami_class_destroyer

I get it, thanks. They knowingly keep a low profile.

[timetraveller]

i remember taking a tour of a chicom ship that made a port call in Navsta everett a few years back, it was cool, but i was nervous of the 4 foot 9 sailor with an ak watching me.

is it just me or does that Japaneses frigate look like a miniature spruance?
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm112/bravo-juliet/300px-USS_David_R_Ray_DD-971_with_A.jpg



Arleigh burke ....

[matthew.manhorn]

The Chinese just can't let go of the past.


Sorry of my off-topic statement, but I'm just trying to prove how different the Japanese navy is from the Japanese ground force.


In military history, the Japanese ground forces were a military force who boast their military doctrine by invading small and defenseless countries, however, when it came to fighting conventional opponents, the Japanese simply fell into submission, since they will never try to face stronger opponents.
After getting their a** kicked in battle of Kahlkin Gol the Japanese "elite army" didn't even dare to invade USSR again, which resulted into the demise of Operation Barbarossa.
Despite being inferior to the German military, the Polish soldiers were willing to charge towards German panzers with their Calvary. Czech pilots also resisted against the Nazi invaders with their courage. Polish veterans who had lost their homeland were also willing to confront the Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain. Compare to the courageous Polish and Czech veterans, the Japanese ground force doesn’t even fall into the category of being “soldiers”. The Japanese ground forces did nothing impressive but by committing a few shocking atrocities.

not trying to start a flame war here... The Japanese navy was a well disciplined, and tactical brilliant navy, their deceptive tactics in the battle of Midway and Leyte Gulfe proved their supremacy as a naval power. They were totally different if you compare them to those demonic murderers in China

[NavyTimes]

Nice offtopic there mate.

It is always good to see fine fleet visits, thanks for posting the pictures!

[Wildgoose]

The Japanese navy was a well disciplined, and tactical brilliant navy, their deceptive tactics in the battle of Midway and Leyte Gulfe proved their supremacy as a naval power.

Yeah, they definitely made that point in both those battles:roll:

[Ordie]

Point of correction:
The Japanese Navy does not exist.
It has been replaced by the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force.

Off topic:

The Imperial Japanese Navy of World War Two was exceptional in combat but suffered from overstreched supply lines and misplaced priorities within Tojo's government.

The Imperial Japanese Army in China remained intact up until the end of the war. In fact they went on the offensive in 1944 (Operation Ichigo) overtaking critical allied airfields and linking Northern China and Southest Asia. This limited the rage of allied bombers based from China to Japan.

Much of the Japanese consolidation of power has more to do with KMT vs. CCP infighting, the Allies limited support on the premise of keeping the Japanese busy for the sake of the Island campaign. And the Chinese willingness to trade land for time.

The Japanese had a network of Chinese collaborators without which, their control of critical seaports and land routes would have been made difficult.

After the war, entire units of the Imperial Japanese Army were converted into temporary KMT forces until the Chinese units arrived. In fact KMT had instructed the Japanese forces to shoot any Communist forces on thier way to demobilization.

[SineJustitia]

Armies invade countries, navies make port calls.

Good to see relationships improving.

[SBL]

Sorry of my off-topic statement, but I'm just trying to prove how different the Japanese navy is from the Japanese ground force.


In military history, the Japanese ground forces were a military force who boast their military doctrine by invading small and defenseless countries, however, when it came to fighting conventional opponents, the Japanese simply fell into submission, since they will never try to face stronger opponents.
After getting their a** kicked in battle of Kahlkin Gol the Japanese "elite army" didn't even dare to invade USSR again, which resulted into the demise of Operation Barbarossa.
Despite being inferior to the German military, the Polish soldiers were willing to charge towards German panzers with their Calvary. Czech pilots also resisted against the Nazi invaders with their courage. Polish veterans who had lost their homeland were also willing to confront the Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain. Compare to the courageous Polish and Czech veterans, the Japanese ground force doesn’t even fall into the category of being “soldiers”. The Japanese ground forces did nothing impressive but by committing a few shocking atrocities.



Look up Peleiu, Iwo Jima, or any number of Pacific theater battles that featured Japanese infantry desperately hurling themselves against dug-in emplacements. That seems to be relatively on-par with charging a tank on horseback. You need to read more, pal.

[Bro Jangles]

Arleigh burke ....

are you saying the japanesse ship looks like an arleigh burke, or my picture is of one?

[perdurabo]

Sorry of my off-topic statement, but I'm just trying to prove how different the Japanese navy is from the Japanese ground force.


In military history, the Japanese ground forces were a military force who boast their military doctrine by invading small and defenseless countries, however, when it came to fighting conventional opponents, the Japanese simply fell into submission, since they will never try to face stronger opponents.
After getting their a** kicked in battle of Kahlkin Gol the Japanese "elite army" didn't even dare to invade USSR again, which resulted into the demise of Operation Barbarossa.
Despite being inferior to the German military, the Polish soldiers were willing to charge towards German panzers with their Calvary. Czech pilots also resisted against the Nazi invaders with their courage. Polish veterans who had lost their homeland were also willing to confront the Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain. Compare to the courageous Polish and Czech veterans, the Japanese ground force doesn’t even fall into the category of being “soldiers”. The Japanese ground forces did nothing impressive but by committing a few shocking atrocities.

not trying to start a flame war here... The Japanese navy was a well disciplined, and tactical brilliant navy, their deceptive tactics in the battle of Midway and Leyte Gulfe proved their supremacy as a naval power. They were totally different if you compare them to those demonic murderers in China
WHAT A BS! everyone saw some stupid German propaganda movie and thought "stupid Poles charging tanks with sabers" truth is Polish cavaler had AT Bofors guns that could pierce any german tank armour of that time and also Wz. 35Ur. AT rifles, basicly our cavalery was more like mounted infantry they used horses to travel, only few charges occured and one horse battle (german cavalery charged ours -quite stupid move...) oh and one "charge" on tanks one cavalery unit attacked some infantry but german tanks showed up and they had to run beatwin them to break free.

[matthew.manhorn]

As a Chinese myself, I think it is too easy to blame the Japanese for their atrocities due to excessive media coverage. We have to keep in mind that many disgusting atrocities were committed by Korean and Taiwanese soldiers of the Imperial Japanese army (Taiwan and Korea were Japanese colonies back then), as well. Many of those atrocities aren't mentioned since South + North Korea are friendly nations of China, and the improving relations between China and Taiwan.

Since most Taiwanese soldiers were of Han ethnicity, most of them were ordered to invade Southern pacific countries instead of China. The others who were up for the dirty tasks in China+Manchuria were Korean soldiers, as a minority of the Imperial Japanese army Korean soldiers were ordered to be the ones to charge first against Chinese positions. Therefore many atrocities were actually committed by Koreans first before the Japanese entered captured Chinese cities.

From what I've heard from my grandfather, those Korean / Taiwanese soldiers who served the imperial Japanese army were nicknamed Er Gui Zi ("Second Japs" / "Junior Japs"). Those guys will force family members / monks+nuns of victims to perform incest, rape and torture pregnant Chinese women, mix baby's brains with rice and other sick stuff.

Austria, although annexed by Germany throughout WW2, still apologized for the Holocaust and Wehrmacht atrocities for being part of Nazi Germany. Did Korea and Taiwan give us an official apology?

I'm not trying to stir up racial hatred against Koreans and Taiwanese (there were a small group of Korean resistance fighters in Manchuria who resisted against the Japs), but to warn Chinese teenagers who hates Japan blindly, that there were many ethnic groups who had performed as much (and sickening) atrocities as Japan against the Chinese people and still got away too easily without any official apologies. The Japanese government has already apologized and should deserve no more excessive condemnations.

Just wanna share some history to smoothen up the Chinese-Japanese relation

PS: It's shocking to see there are barely any English internet sources (including English wikipedia) that cover any Korean / Taiwanese in the Imperial atrocities...

And my following passage should clarify the "Korean soldier" incident in Normandy

[matthew.manhorn]

WHAT A BS! everyone saw some stupid German propaganda movie and thought "stupid Poles charging tanks with sabers" truth is Polish cavaler had AT Bofors guns that could pierce any german tank armour of that time and also Wz. 35Ur. AT rifles, basicly our cavalery was more like mounted infantry they used horses to travel, only few charges occured and one horse battle (german cavalery charged ours -quite stupid move...) oh and one "charge" on tanks one cavalery unit attacked some infantry but german tanks showed up and they had to run beatwin them to break free.

I was using the calvary as an example of the Pole's courage. The Soviets put the calvary into good use during WW2 as well

[ren0312]

Sorry of my off-topic statement, but I'm just trying to prove how different the Japanese navy is from the Japanese ground force.


In military history, the Japanese ground forces were a military force who boast their military doctrine by invading small and defenseless countries, however, when it came to fighting conventional opponents, the Japanese simply fell into submission, since they will never try to face stronger opponents.
After getting their a** kicked in battle of Kahlkin Gol the Japanese "elite army" didn't even dare to invade USSR again, which resulted into the demise of Operation Barbarossa.
Despite being inferior to the German military, the Polish soldiers were willing to charge towards German panzers with their Calvary. Czech pilots also resisted against the Nazi invaders with their courage. Polish veterans who had lost their homeland were also willing to confront the Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain. Compare to the courageous Polish and Czech veterans, the Japanese ground force doesn’t even fall into the category of being “soldiers”. The Japanese ground forces did nothing impressive but by committing a few shocking atrocities.

not trying to start a flame war here... The Japanese navy was a well disciplined, and tactical brilliant navy, their deceptive tactics in the battle of Midway and Leyte Gulfe proved their supremacy as a naval power. They were totally different if you compare them to those demonic murderers in China

There is no question about the fanaticism of the Japanese in defense, especially the Special Naval Landing Force, but in terms of offensive tactics they were largely behind the Germans, the Malayan campaign notwithstanding.

[gaijinsamurai]

At least you mentioned their Malaysian Campaign. Tomoyuki Yamash!ta did a brilliant job with the capture of Singapore.

[LazerLordz]

At least you mentioned their Malaysian Campaign. Tomoyuki Yamash!ta did a brilliant job with the capture of Singapore.

Helped in part by the ineptitude of the Allied command in charge of defending Singapore.

[Ordie]

Helped in part by the ineptitude of the Allied command in charge of defending Singapore.

and bicycles.

[Holycrusader]

I was using the calvary as an example of the Pole's courage. The Soviets put the calvary into good use during WW2 as well

If it was true it will be example of our stupidity. Thanks God our cavalerymens were smarter than that...
Next time pls do not believe in Nazi propaganda... :)

[LazerLordz]

and bicycles.

Lots and lots of those.

[MZKT]

If it was true it will be example of our stupidity. Thanks God our cavalerymens were smarter than that...
Next time pls do not believe in Nazi propaganda... :)

By the beginning of WW2 all cavalry units were not supposed to charge enemy on horses. They were just some sort of mech. infantry units, just with horses instead of trucks.

The event which caused this legend was when polish cavalry was surprised by a german SdKfz-mounted unit, there weren't even tanks there.

Red army cavalry was very successfull in long raids operating behind german lines, being not dependent on roads fuel supply .

[SMGLee]

As a Chinese myself, I think it is too easy to blame the Japanese for their atrocities due to excessive media coverage. We have to keep in mind that many disgusting atrocities were committed by Korean and Taiwanese soldiers of the Imperial Japanese army (Taiwan and Korea were Japanese colonies back then), as well. Many of those atrocities aren't mentioned since South + North Korea are friendly nations of China, and the improving relations between China and Taiwan.

Since most Taiwanese soldiers were of Han ethnicity, most of them were ordered to invade Southern pacific countries instead of China. The others who were up for the dirty tasks in China+Manchuria were Korean soldiers, as a minority of the Imperial Japanese army Korean soldiers were ordered to be the ones to charge first against Chinese positions. Therefore many atrocities were actually committed by Koreans first before the Japanese entered captured Chinese cities.

From what I've heard from my grandfather, those Korean / Taiwanese soldiers who served the imperial Japanese army were nicknamed Er Gui Zi ("Second Japs" / "Junior Japs"). Those guys will force family members / monks+nuns of victims to perform incest, rape and torture pregnant Chinese women, mix baby's brains with rice and other sick stuff.

Austria, although annexed by Germany throughout WW2, still apologized for the Holocaust and Wehrmacht atrocities for being part of Nazi Germany. Did Korea and Taiwan give us an official apology?

I'm not trying to stir up racial hatred against Koreans and Taiwanese (there were a small group of Korean resistance fighters in Manchuria who resisted against the Japs), but to warn Chinese teenagers who hates Japan blindly, that there were many ethnic groups who had performed as much (and sickening) atrocities as Japan against the Chinese people and still got away too easily without any official apologies. The Japanese government has already apologized and should deserve no more excessive condemnations.

Just wanna share some history to smoothen up the Chinese-Japanese relation

PS: It's shocking to see there are barely any English internet sources (including English wikipedia) that cover any Korean / Taiwanese in the Imperial atrocities...

And my following passage should clarify the "Korean soldier" incident in Normandy

You are so full of Sh!t.....sorry you can't find a pickle in your A$$ if some one stuck it in there......

Jap Navy committed as much havoc in China as did the Army. You don't think the Navy had ground forces in China? Japanese Navy has a huge presence in China via ground, air and also river fleets.

Japanese Navy go their rear end pounded in Pacific.... so how tactically sound they might be is a mystery to me.

As far as most of the Taiwanese and Korean in the war on the Japanese side... most of them were slave labors.

If you were trying to smooth the relationship, then why did you even bring it up int his thread? this is about a friendly port call.

[flyforest]

The Chinese just can't let go of the past.
Well. Becoming a chinese I think the japan and china should not return to the war. We should work together for the new chanllege. But you know the WW2 just over for 60years. The old japanes army killed millions of asian people. It is hard to forget such history. So more contacts may be good for the relationship of two countries. Like this time.

[matthew.manhorn]

Well. Becoming a chinese I think the japan and china should not return to the war. We should work together for the new chanllege. But you know the WW2 just over for 60years. The old japanes army killed millions of asian people. It is hard to forget such history. So more contacts may be good for the relationship of two countries. Like this time.

The Japanese government should forbid Nanking massacre denial (ffs even the entire Europe forbids holocaust denial), execute all WW2 Japanese veterans who had committed atrocities in Asia and praise imperialism, then we'll talk about that.

The Japanese government should had known the consequences for keeping the emperor alive and enforce Nanking Massacre Denial after WW2.

[Mastermind]

Oh, Brother! Seems no matter what some one iwll bring up the past atrocities of this or that war. Every nation committed atrocities...EVERY Nation! That's friggin' war. Now, we see something good come of professionals interacting and people have to hang some kind of long dead baggage on it.

I say hurrah for the Japanese going to visit...and their generous gesture of relief supplies, we may find out were collected via crew donations. It is also great that the Chinese government has begun to lighten up, allowing such a visit and the visit by the Chinese Destroyer to Japan.

Peace has to begin somewhere...and cheap shots about terrible pasts are really not helpful to the whole process.

Absolutely no one can change the past...but we can change the future if we want.

[Ordie]

The Japanese government should forbid Nanking massacre denial (ffs even the entire Europe forbids holocaust denial), execute all WW2 Japanese veterans who had committed atrocities in Asia and praise imperialism, then we'll talk about that.

The Japanese government should had known the consequences for keeping the emperor alive and enforce Nanking Massacre Denial after WW2.

The war is over.

The ROC and Japan signed a peace treaty in 1950.
The PRC and Japan signed a peace treaty in 1978.

Both Japan and China are at peace.

"Keep off your thoughts from things that are past and done; for thinking of the past wakes regret and pain."
-Chinese Poem "Resignation" -826 A.D.

[SBL]

Oh, Brother! Seems no matter what some one iwll bring up the past atrocities of this or that war. Every nation committed atrocities...EVERY Nation! That's friggin' war. Now, we see something good come of professionals interacting and people have to hang some kind of long dead baggage on it.

I say hurrah for the Japanese going to visit...and their generous gesture of relief supplies, we may find out were collected via crew donations. It is also great that the Chinese government has begun to lighten up, allowing such a visit and the visit by the Chinese Destroyer to Japan.

Peace has to begin somewhere...and cheap shots about terrible pasts are really not helpful to the whole process.

Absolutely no one can change the past...but we can change the future if we want.

As long as Beijing continues to utilize history as a means of distracting and consolidating public opinion, we're going to hear about it. Nothing unique to China of course, but pretty doggone obnoxious!

[flyforest]

The war is over.

The ROC and Japan signed a peace treaty in 1950.
The PRC and Japan signed a peace treaty in 1978.

Both Japan and China are at peace.

"Keep off your thoughts from things that are past and done; for thinking of the past wakes regret and pain."
-Chinese Poem "Resignation" -826 A.D.
The war is over. We should look forward to the future.
But at the same time we couldn't forget the history, especially the miserable history.
The two contries should work together to eliminate the misunderstand.

[SMGLee]

The war is over. We should look forward to the future.
But at the same time we couldn't forget the history, especially the miserable history.
The two contries should work together to eliminate the misunderstand.

It is good to remember the history and remember how horribly we as Chinese were treated in the war......

BUT.. to bring it up everytime there is something going on between Japan and China is like your wife keep harping on some thing you apologize for it ten years ago......

Japan rewritting the histroy books and denying the past are not constructive to the relationship but what you gonna do? there are neo nazis that deny the concentration camps...

[SMGLee]

The Japanese government should forbid Nanking massacre denial (ffs even the entire Europe forbids holocaust denial), execute all WW2 Japanese veterans who had committed atrocities in Asia and praise imperialism, then we'll talk about that.

The Japanese government should had known the consequences for keeping the emperor alive and enforce Nanking Massacre Denial after WW2.

This is your early post......


Just wanna share some history to smoothen up the Chinese-Japanese relation


so what kind of smoothing are you trying to do?


Dude...you are an A$$ clown!!!

I am a proud Chinese American, as much as I hate the Japanese for those ugly acts in WW2, it was a long time ago, I simply just move on and use it as a reminder that no nation should ever go through that kind of treatment again, learn from the history and make your country a better country because of it.


it has nothing to do with the Japan today, your action is much akin to the African American today in America asking for repayment for the slavery days....

[Mastermind]

^^ Good post, SMGLee

[WarDancer]

^^Ditto to Mastermind!

[gaijinsamurai]

Well said, SMG Lee.

[J-10]

Well said, SMG Lee.

[flyforest]

It is good to remember the history and remember how horribly we as Chinese were treated in the war......

BUT.. to bring it up everytime there is something going on between Japan and China is like your wife keep harping on some thing you apologize for it ten years ago......

Japan rewritting the histroy books and denying the past are not constructive to the relationship but what you gonna do? there are neo nazis that deny the concentration camps...
I agree with you. We should divide the past and the future. We never forget the terriber old janpaese army, but we should coorperate in the future.

[Ordie]

I agree with you. We should divide the past and the future. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX we should coorperate in the future.

I fixed it for you.

Everytime, you meet and greet a Japanese, treat him/her as your familiy.

[flyforest]

I fixed it for you.

Everytime, you meet and greet a Japanese, treat him/her as your familiy.
I think it is difficult to do as you said. When I meet a Japanese, I will respect him, also with my friendly. Just like the people form American or other countries.