Muslim terrorism and the future of the World as we know it...

[Greg27]

NB: not sure if it is really from that retired air force general (he checks out on af.mil) nevertheless interesting read (MOD: didn't come up in search window so sorry if repost):


This WAR is REAL

By Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

"To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1 When did the threat to us start?
Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer, as far as the United States is concerned, is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut , Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie , Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran , Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi , Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam , Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden , Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note: during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide.)

2 Why were we attacked?
Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats, as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessor, President Ford.

3 Who were the attackers?
In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4 What is the Muslim population of the World?
25%

5 Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including
7,000 Polish priests).

(see http://www.Nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom hear of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy in killing anyone who got in the way of his extermination of the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian, or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US , but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, British, French or anyone else. The point here is that, just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own ****ouncements
-- killing all of us 'infidels.' I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was t o remain silent or be killed?

6 So who are we at war with?
There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.
So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1 Can we lose this war?

2 What does losing really mean?
If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions:

We can definitely lose this war and, as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home, and going on about our business, like post-Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but, rather, will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them.
We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are impotent and cannot help them..

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq . Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France . Our one hope with France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished, too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France . France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast.

Without our support, Great Britain will go, also Recently, I read that there are more mosques in England than churches.

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports, and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us if they were threatened by the Muslims? If we can't stop the Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else?

The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We'd better know it, too, and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?
Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by 'imploding.' That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose and failing to dig in and lend full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win.
Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation:

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights to which we have become accustomed. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory ... and, in fact, added many more since that time.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.
Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose.

I think some actually do. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police.. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues, and otherwise murdering their own just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.
And, just a few years ago, these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters who recently were burning Americans and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq . And, still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the 'humiliating' of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but 'humiliating' them.

Can they be for real?
The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in, and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.
To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again, I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us for many years.

These people are a serious and dangerous liability to the war effort. We must take note of who they are and get them out of office. Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels. That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States , but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful, and smart that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that, with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world.
We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation, as we know it, will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And, finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self- inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach, little by little, on the established French traditions.

The French will be fighting among themselves over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide, that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

Muslims have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who the few will be controlling the masses.
What is happening in Iraq is a good example. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct about the 'peaceful Muslims?'

I close on a hopeful note by repeating what I said before: If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now, after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about. Do whatever you can to preserve it. I reiterate: our national election is under way.

After reading the above, we all must do this, not only for ourselves, but for our children, our grandchildren, our country, and our world. Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal ... and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world."


— discuss amongst yourselves.

[Calanen]

2 Why were we attacked?
Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats, as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessor, President Ford.


No, no, no.....

That might have influenced what targets to attack, which infidels needed to be smashed the most. The USA is the leader of the infidels, no question.

But the real reason the USA is attacked, and the reason why Islamic terrorism does what it does is because of the long history of jihad within islam. Not because of jealousy, foreign policy, Israel, Palestine, etc etc etc. Just go round and round in circles trying to figure out what WE have done, instead of looking at the central doctrinal basis for what the jihadis have done: Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.

Instead of the Islamic community saying, we reject violent jihad within Islam and, we reject those in the Islamic community who kill people like this - there is far more focus on trying to convince the West it is not happening, should not be discussed, or that the West is entirely to blame for this. There is far more from the talking heads within Islam of blaming the west for the terrorist activities committed by people in the name of Islam then there EVER is of saying why the 'misunderstanders' version of jihad is entirely wrong.

If the people in Islam, want to remove the 'negative perception' of Islam, then they need to focus on stopping the people that are killing people in the name of Islam, which is ever present and ongoing. Instead of constantly saying to the West, you need to behave better and then these terrorists will stop being terrorists.

[Kaapeli]

"Spain is finished"? Stopped reading there realizing this article must be a joke.

[Greg27]

"Spain is finished"? Stopped reading there realizing this article must be a joke.

you may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a joke.
a lot of educated people round the world and in spain itself share that very concern about their country. maybe "finished" is too strong of a word, but the idea it carries still subsist in many minds...

keep your comments constructive please. if you don't agree with it, let us know why.

appreciate it.

[Kaapeli]

maybe "finished" is too strong of a word, but the idea it carries still subsist in many minds...

Don't try to downplay it. Spain as a nation has now officially ended because it withdrew it's 1300 troops from Iraq.


The next will probably be France . Our one hope with France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished, too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France . France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast.

Actually it's 5-10%. But nevermind the numbers. France is over too anyway.
They survived 2 World Wars with 2 million dead but they didn't survive the ~5% muslim population that have now abolished the nation once known as France somehow.

Oh the horror.

[Sato]

Also he seems to forget that France has already been fighting against various forms of Muslim terrorism for a long time. I'm sure they'll manage just fine.

[LEB101]

"Spain is finished"? Stopped reading there realizing this article must be a joke.
its true if spain was not finished it would have hunted down the men that did it and not pulled its troops

[LEB101]

this is a very good read . eveyone should read it . americans should wake up and stop being so damn nice

[Greg27]

i agree the numbers are exegerated, plus we will never know for sure since it is illegal in france to ask such question in government-sponsored census since 1872. so any numbers that anyone can come up with are purely speculative.

but no one questions the fact that the fertility rate amongst muslims living in france is much higher than of native french, hence the number will eventually become larger and larger... it may take another 50 years but eventually france will have 20% people of "possible Muslim faith".

the french may have survived 2 world wars but they have never been faced with demography as a weapon. there is no stopping an overwhelming growing population. Purely as an example (nothing to do with muslims) in just a few years the US population will be 25% hispanic. (no hispanic flaming please)

in the US, hispanic population showed a 3.3 percent increase between July 1, 2006, and July 1, 2007 while white population grew by only 0.3 percent during the one-year period.
what are the french going to do 50 years from now if they are effectively not reproducing anymore while the muslims are?

[The Balkan]

No, no, no.....

That might have influenced what targets to attack, which infidels needed to be smashed the most. The USA is the leader of the infidels, no question.

But the real reason the USA is attacked, and the reason why Islamic terrorism does what it does is because of the long history of jihad within islam. Not because of jealousy, foreign policy, Israel, Palestine, etc etc etc. Just go round and round in circles trying to figure out what WE have done, instead of looking at the central doctrinal basis for what the jihadis have done: Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.

Instead of the Islamic community saying, we reject violent jihad within Islam and, we reject those in the Islamic community who kill people like this - there is far more focus on trying to convince the West it is not happening, should not be discussed, or that the West is entirely to blame for this. There is far more from the talking heads within Islam of blaming the west for the terrorist activities committed by people in the name of Islam then there EVER is of saying why the 'misunderstanders' version of jihad is entirely wrong.

If the people in Islam, want to remove the 'negative perception' of Islam, then they need to focus on stopping the people that are killing people in the name of Islam, which is ever present and ongoing. Instead of constantly saying to the West, you need to behave better and then these terrorists will stop being terrorists.

Yea that's why EVERY SINGLE 'Muslim country' is attacking the USA today.

:roll:

[Invisigoth]

Yea that's why EVERY SINGLE 'Muslim country' is attacking the USA today.

:roll:

Yeah I mean who cares about the West supporting the Shah, arming Jihadists against the Soviets, etc. pp. They hate us for no reason :roll:

[Laworkerbee]

Yea that's why EVERY SINGLE 'Muslim country' is attacking the USA today.

:roll:

He is not speaking in terms of countries but of Islams taste for warfare since its inception.

[SBL]

Yeah I mean who cares about the West supporting the Shah, arming Jihadists against the Soviets, etc. pp. They hate us for no reason :roll:

They hate us because we armed jihadists against the soviets? Really?

[Kaapeli]

what are the french going to do 50 years from now if they are effectively not reproducing anymore while the muslims are?

So the muslims aren't French? I didn't know that Islam was a nationality too.

Anyway 100% - 20% = 0%.

[Greg27]

Yea that's why EVERY SINGLE 'Muslim country' is attacking the USA today.

no one is saying every single muslim "country" is attacking the USA. because it's false.

[The Balkan]

no one is saying every single muslim "country" is attacking the USA. because it's false.

Read what he wrote. He's basicly saying Muslims have a natural tendency to do this ****. Therefore every country with a big or majority Muslim population should either be declaring war or have at least a good chunk of it's citizens attacking the US.

[Greg27]

So the muslims aren't French? I didn't know that Islam was a nationality too. Anyway 100% - 20% = 0%.

i'm not trying to pick a fight with you really, but we have to be able to discuss demography and population growth on some sort of common ground. yes the muslims are french (the naturalized ones) and that's why i said of "possible Muslim faith".

i didn't make the census, polls or referendums, those numbers are out there for everyone to interpret. one way or another, one number is going up while the other one is going down. we may not agree with it, but there it is. cold hard cash.

[Invisigoth]

He is not speaking in terms of countries but of Islams taste for warfare since its inception.

You mean like the crusades? :roll:

[Kaapeli]

i'm not trying to pick a fight with you really, but we have to be able to discuss demography and population growth on some sort of common ground. yes the muslims are french (the naturalized ones) and that's why i said of "possible Muslim faith".

i didn't make the census, polls or referendums, those numbers are out there for everyone to interpret. one way or another, one number is going up while the other one is going down. we may not agree with it, but there it is. cold hard cash.

Ok. Demographics are difficult to predict that far into to future but let's play with the idea that some years from now France would have 20% of it's population considering themselves more or less muslim.
Then what?

[Laworkerbee]

Read what he wrote. He's basicly saying Muslims have a natural tendency to do this ****. Therefore every country with a big or majority Muslim population should either be declaring war or have at least a good chunk of it's citizens attacking the US.

Afghanistan
Bosnia
Côte d'Ivoire
Cyprus
East Timor
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Kosovo
Kurdistan
Lebanon
Macedonia
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palestine
Philippines
Russia, Chechnya
Sudan
Thailand
Uganda

Wonder what all of these countries and conflicts have in common?


You mean like the crusades? :roll:

I know your dying to turn this against the West and Christianity, please do so by posting more than one liners.

[The Balkan]

Yea seriosly then what? So what?

What you're gonna commit genocide on them to make sure it doesn't happen? I mean alot of these argument make no sense? If you're unsatisfied with the White Christian French birth rate then tell them to start fu*king. Other then that what exactly are you gonna do here?

[matthew.manhorn]

who cares about the Muslim immigration in France anyway, I like Zidane

Most Europeans always make fun of the Americans for having "no culture", ironically their rich culture itself created their own problems amongst immigration policies by segregating its nationality and race.

[The Balkan]

Afghanistan
Bosnia
Côte d'Ivoire
Cyprus
East Timor
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Kosovo
Kurdistan
Lebanon
Macedonia
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palestine
Philippines
Russia, Chechnya
Sudan
Thailand
Uganda

Wonder what all of these countries and conflicts have in common?

They have Muslims involved, which automaticly means those Muslims were the root of the conflict and specificly BECAUSE they're Muslims :roll:

Even though in some cases they by far are the ones who suffered the most in those conflicts.

You might also notice most of those conflicts have Whites and/or Christians involved. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it must mean something!

When such ahuge chunk of the world is of the Islamic faith, is it really amazing alot of the countries that have wars also have muslims?

Was the cold war Muslims? The one war that could've scorched the earth a 100 times over?

[LEB101]

They have Muslims involved, which automaticly means those Muslims were the root of the conflict and specificly BECAUSE they're Muslims :roll:

Even though in some cases they by far are the ones who suffered the most in those conflicts.

You might also notice most of those conflicts have Whites and/or Christians involved. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it must mean something!

When such ahuge chunk of the world is of the Islamic faith, is it really amazing alot of the countries that have wars also have muslims?

Was the cold war Muslims? The one war that could've scorched the earth a 100 times over?
see you play to nice . just beciase most muslims are not part of the terror activieties . most do support it and condone it

[Mr.Flint]

You mean like the crusades? :roll:
The Islamic expansion began 400 years before the crusades :cantbeli:

[ren0312]

You mean like the crusades? :roll:

Romanus IV Diogenes and Heraclius would beg to disagree that the Seljuks and Arabs were nothing but a bunch of peaceful hippies.

[Greg27]

Ok. Demographics are difficult to predict that far into to future but let's play with the idea that some years from now France would have 20% of it's population considering themselves more or less muslim.
Then what?

i don't know then what.
i guess they are going to start getting electoral power and have more and more representatives in the french assembly and eventually will start passing muslim-friendly laws? isn't it what they are starting to do in the netherlands, england...?
those are facts. what makes you think i have a play in this?
all this guy is saying is that we are not talking of "IF' but "When" france will have a very large muslim community. period. what happens then is to be written.
there is nothing neither you nor i can do about it. it's been dubbed as the second muslim invasion of europe, this time demographically since they couldn't do it militarily in 732.

what would have been your reaction 20 years ago if i had told you that Berlin was going to be the second largest turkish city in the world after Istanbul? Yet here we are.

there are a billion things to discuss in this guys' article, demographics are purely statistical facts, there is very little i can do to argue them beside commenting on them. and i suspect we actually agree on the same points...

[Greg27]

Yea seriosly then what? So what?
What you're gonna commit genocide on them to make sure it doesn't happen? I mean alot of these argument make no sense? If you're unsatisfied with the White Christian French birth rate then tell them to start fu*king. Other then that what exactly are you gonna do here?


again, i am not sure why you seem to think i have something against the french birth rate. as far as i can tell the french government recently started to really push the birth rate through social benefits and it is working. birth rate is up, but how many of those are christian-based faith or from muslim-based background. i don't know. ask them. ask the dutch, they are actually far more advanced in the process than the french.

maybe there will be yet another ethnic cleansing in europe in the next 50 years or so. it's not like it didn't happen before. again and again. god forbid there are plenty of loons far-right extremists all over europe. go ask them what they are planning on doing about the extinction of their race over the next couple centuries or so. i'm sure they have a strong opinion about it.

[The Balkan]

see you play to nice . just beciase most muslims are not part of the terror activieties . most do support it and condone it

Say whatever you want about the Middle East, that's your problem, your history, but don't tell me what I and MY people condone or support. I've never supported any Jihad or any religiosly motivated terror attack, and neither has anyone I've ever known. The only conflicts I or anyone I know has ever supported, had nothing to do with spreading religion or declaring war on "infidels". Bosnia and Kosovo and Albania are recognized as some of the tamest most secular Muslims on Earth, yet he puts them on that list and talks as if the religion caused those conflicts in order to spread Islam. As if the people on the other side of the conflict, who did way more damage, weren't Christians, yet NOBODY would for a second think to say "Christian holy war. As if those conflicts weren't about politics, and land and to lesser extent ethnicity. I survived both wars and never once heard any dumb **** about spreading Islam. Mostly I heard about survival and land. Christians shot at me, was it cuz they were Christians? We managed to co-exist with NO problem for like 40 years, must've been magic? So when some douchebag on the net who thinks he knows what's going on in places he's never been to, with people he's never met, tells me he knows better, and essentialy calls me and everyone I know terrorists, I get a little annoyed.

He wasn't talking directly to me but part of my heretige is Islamic culture and although I'm nothing close to a real Muslim in the religous sense (I've never practised any religion in my life), it's clear his ass is afraid of some world wide Islamic takeover.

I've never denied radical Islam is a problem, but I have a problem when people start saying the root of that problem is some natural inferiority or evil or some dumb ****.

There's litteraly hundreds of reasons why the Middle East is like it is, and simply saying "their religon sucks and is evil", sure as hell ain't the answer.

I love how when Christians are violent there's always some other reason besides them being Christians, yet a Muslim can never be just an idiot, or just a criminal, or just a murderer, he's always a Muslim first and that is the root of his defficiency. it's the same thing they used to use to prove how "bab" Blacks were. The Black race had to be perfect, make sure none of their people were morons like everyone else, cuz if there's even a few, the whole group is gonna be judged by it. What a great logic. I guess everyone should look at Western whites as culture stealing, slave trading, imperialist cracker ass white devils.

[Greg27]

So when some douchebag on the net who thinks he knows what's going on in places he's never been to, with people he's never met, tells me he knows better, and essentialy calls me and everyone I know terrorists, I get a little annoyed.

well that guy is a US Air Force General (retired) so i'm guessing he's been places and most likely met tons of muslims thru foreign military contacts (he was a surgeon if his bio checks out alright) and even if he hasn't met any muslims, he is entitled to his opinion just like you are.

i didn't check-fact the entire article, but the few things i looked up he was spot on, so i dont' know what else to tell you. i'm sorry you think he calls you a terrorist, i didn't get that form my read.

[Kaapeli]

i don't know then what.
i guess they are going to start getting electoral power and have more and more representatives in the french assembly and eventually will start passing muslim-friendly laws? isn't it what they are starting to do in the netherlands, england...?

Who are starting to pass muslim friendly laws in the Netherlands and the UK?

I'll save you some time and answer that question myself: there are no recognized Islamist parties nor even a single Islamist parliament member in any of the European nations. None.
Not even in the Netherlands, the UK or France.
Good luck passing any laws with that political presentation.

Now if a 5-10% muslim minority can't or aren't interested in getting even one Islamist politician elected or an Islamic political party started I don't see how that is going to change much even if their numbers suddenly trippled.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Afghanistan
Bosnia
Côte d'Ivoire
Cyprus
East Timor
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Kosovo
Kurdistan
Lebanon
Macedonia
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palestine
Philippines
Russia, Chechnya
Sudan
Thailand
Uganda

Wonder what all of these countries and conflicts have in common?



I know your dying to turn this against the West and Christianity, please do so by posting more than one liners.


This is not a country, as for the Cyprus dispute that was more ethnic rather then Religious.

[The Balkan]

well that guy is a US Air Force General (retired) so i'm guessing he's been places and most likely met tons of muslims thru foreign military contacts (he was a surgeon if his bio checks out alright) and even if he hasn't met any muslims, he is entitled to his opinion just like you are.

i didn't check-fact the entire article, but the few things i looked up he was spot on, so i dont' know what else to tell you. i'm sorry you think he calls you a terrorist, i didn't get that form my read.


I wasn't talking about the guy who wrote the article but certain members here.

[Calanen]

Yea that's why EVERY SINGLE 'Muslim country' is attacking the USA today.

:roll:

Why does every single muslim country have to be attacking the US?

It is interesting that because we can point to some muslims who are not doing things, this means that no muslims are doing things in the name of jihad. There are two types of jihad, the stealth jihad and the fighting jihad.

Stealth jihad involves attacking western countries thoughts, institutions, beliefs, systems, media, government, police through propaganda. Constantly changing the social systems, seeking sharia law, polygamy, building mosques, protests, stopping any criticism of islam, and getting a pro-islamic point of view out in the liberal media.

The fighting jihad is the terror and violence we see, but it is also, the people who pour money into islamic front charities that finance the 'jihad'.

The Islamic world senses self doubt in the West. We have morons from the West who criticise our own beliefs and systems constantly, it has become cool to hate ourselves. They sense this self-doubt, the see the West like the nerd in the playground with no self-confidence dragging his feet behind him with his head down, he is ready to cop a beating, and they circle like vultures. But not all of us have our heads down, and they will find that this nerd can actually fight.

Jihad also does not mean, attack a country that will wipe you out. You can have houdna and Al-Taqiyaa, until you are ready...and if ready means, so subverting our freedoms, beliefs, practices and governments until our systems are riddled with holes like they are full of termite - perhaps that is the best time.

[The Balkan]

Why does every single muslim country have to be attacking the US?

It is interesting that because we can point to some muslims who are not doing things, this means that no muslims are doing things in the name of jihad. There are two types of jihad, the stealth jihad and the fighting jihad.

Stealth jihad involves attacking western countries thoughts, institutions, beliefs, systems, media, government, police through propaganda. Constantly changing the social systems, seeking sharia law, polygamy, building mosques, protests, stopping any criticism of islam, and getting a pro-islamic point of view out in the liberal media.

The fighting jihad is the terror and violence we see, but it is also, the people who pour money into islamic front charities that finance the 'jihad'.

The Islamic world senses self doubt in the West. We have morons from the West who criticise our own beliefs and systems constantly, it has become cool to hate ourselves. They sense this self-doubt, the see the West like the nerd in the playground with no self-confidence dragging his feet behind him with his head down, he is ready to cop a beating, and they circle like vultures. But not all of us have our heads down, and they will find that this nerd can actually fight.

Jihad also does not mean, attack a country that will wipe you out. You can have houdna and Al-Taqiyaa, until you are ready...and if ready means, so subverting our freedoms, beliefs, practices and governments until our systems are riddled with holes like they are full of termite - perhaps that is the best time.


Sorry I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.

Except to tell you that I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.

[Calanen]

Afghanistan
Bosnia
Côte d'Ivoire
Cyprus
East Timor
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Kosovo
Kurdistan
Lebanon
Macedonia
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palestine
Philippines
Russia, Chechnya
Sudan
Thailand
Uganda

Wonder what all of these countries and conflicts have in common?



I know your dying to turn this against the West and Christianity, please do so by posting more than one liners.

You can add the Maldives to that. But you have the majority of them there.

[Karaahmetoglu]

see you play to nice . just beciase most muslims are not part of the terror activieties . most do support it and condone it



You realize that most not all, of this Islamic terror stuff is all started by Arabs right? And while the non arab muslim population is much much bigger then the Arab one, and these people are fighting against Terrorism and dying you go out and blame these people for condoning Terrorism. Go to Turkey and say that to us, say that almost all Muslims condone terrorism they probably throw you a$$ in Jail with Abdullah Ocalan, you guys could could be "cell mates:hug:". I am right behind you against terrorism, but accusing almost all Muslims of Terrorism, is just the way they think as well. Also laworkerbee, you gave Kosovo and Bosnia as examples of places where Muslims are doing Terrorism, but wasn't it the radical Serbian nationalists that wanted to wipe Muslims off the Balkans? I really cannot understand how defending your self is Terrorism.

[Calanen]

Read what he wrote. He's basicly saying Muslims have a natural tendency to do this ****. Therefore every country with a big or majority Muslim population should either be declaring war or have at least a good chunk of it's citizens attacking the US.

Everyone likes to speak for me. I could be in two places at once so many people are doing the talking for me.

Its not about 'race' or muslims having a natural tendency to do anything. Islam, the religion, has as a doctrinal basis, a long history of warfare and jihad. That is what people rely upon to attack us, not Israel or Palestine or anything else. That might make us a better first target than anything else, but we have no right to live as unbelievers anyway (except as dhimmis), so it does not matter.

There is very little criticism directed at the jihadis by the islamic world. Huge resources of governments poured into dealing with the offence of a cartoon in Denmark, not many resources poured into the offence caused by the supposed perverters of islam invoking islam in the name of terror? Wouldnt such conduct be more offensive than a cartoon? If people were blowing people up in the name of Jesus, would I be more worried about Jesus on South Park or people being blown up? For Islam, it is door No 1. Now why is that......?

[BRCAK]

see you play to nice . just beciase most muslims are not part of the terror activieties . most do support it and condone itless than 1% of the muslim population support terrorism trust me if most muslims supported terrorism it would be a lot worse than it is today and your just pulling these facts out of your a** for some reson......im a muslim and i dont support terrorism and every muslim i know doesnt support terrorism infact about 7 muslims i know joined the usmc and are serving alongside both christians and muslims in iraq

[Mr.Flint]

Sorry I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.

Except to tell you that I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.
Slavery is still practiced in many muslim countries, Racism is apparently instilled from birth, and well muslims technically wrote the book on imperialism rofl

[Calanen]

Sorry I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.

Except to tell you that I don't talk to culture stealing, slave trading, racist, imperialist white devils.

Slave trading? Did you know that there is a long history of slave trading in the Arab world? It was not only a white phenomena. Not that this matters, at all. It is just more smoke and mirrors.

There it is again though, the sleight of hand - do not debate the issue..just say, 'Oh yeah! Well what about you!!!'.

[Laworkerbee]

They have Muslims involved, which automaticly means those Muslims were the root of the conflict and specificly BECAUSE they're Muslims :roll:


I'm just listing the majority of fault line conflicts around the world (I didn't list them all). My post wasn't meant to offend you and I'm sorry if it did.

[Calanen]

I'm just listing the majority of fault line conflicts around the world (I didn't list them all). My post wasn't meant to offend you and I'm sorry if it did.

Dont worry about 'offending' people - people are dying - that is more offensive. The Islamic world and the talking heads love to play the 'Im mortally offended card, apologise immediately!!'. And we are so silly, we usually fall for it.

And as for whether the fact that muslims do it for religion or not, those people in ALL of those conflicts are saying, we are doing this in the name of islam, this is jihad. Shouldnt we take them at their word? Wouldnt they know more about what they are doing and why than we would?

So, for us to say, hey, we notice this, they say it is jihad, - we are somehow wrong?

[Winger]

I know your dying to turn this against the West and Christianity, please do so by posting more than one liners.

That about sums up all you'll get bee. Instead of lingering in the distant past which guess what.....he can do absolutely shiznit about, he should look at the present and the immediate past. Then take his West and Christianity argument fantasy, place it in the proverbial pipe, and smoke it.

[V.I.D.]

I wasn't talking about the guy who wrote the article but certain members here.

Have you seriously wrote that Kosovo Albanians and those from Albania are tamest Muslims? Perhaps I could agree with you on Bosnian Muslims (at least prior to this war as there are many wartime instructors and naturalized citizens from "you know what ME countries" living in Bosnia since 1990s), but please do not attempt to sell Albanians as "tame"......it's just sounds silly to us who know better.

[Winger]

They have Muslims involved, which automaticly means those Muslims were the root of the conflict and specificly BECAUSE they're Muslims :roll:

Even though in some cases they by far are the ones who suffered the most in those conflicts.

You might also notice most of those conflicts have Whites and/or Christians involved. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it must mean something!

When such ahuge chunk of the world is of the Islamic faith, is it really amazing alot of the countries that have wars also have muslims?

Was the cold war Muslims? The one war that could've scorched the earth a 100 times over?

Last I checked, the said Christians involved weren't shouting "Christ is great" while pulling their triggers. That right there says it all.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Dont worry about 'offending' people - people are dying - that is more offensive. The Islamic world and the talking heads love to play the 'Im mortally offended card, apologise immediately!!'. And we are so silly, we usually fall for it.

And as for whether the fact that muslims do it for religion or not, those people in ALL of those conflicts are saying, we are doing this in the name of islam, this is jihad. Shouldnt we take them at their word? Wouldnt they know more about what they are doing and why than we would?

So, for us to say, hey, we notice this, they say it is jihad, - we are somehow wrong?


Hey man take it fu*king back. Seriously yes I know people are dying, i feel so sorry for them, I wish i could tell there families my condolences. I wish I could tell them that the people who did this to them are not real Muslims. But you see Muslims are dying too. What you said makes us seem like the root cause of the problem we are not, they say they are Muslim they are not. You make it sound like all Muslims should be isolated from the rest of mankind, Hitler said the same about the Jews in WW2! Calanen, you are one of the most racist pr!x I have ever heard of.

[The Balkan]

Have you seriously wrote that Kosovo Albanians and those from Albania are tamest Muslims? Perhaps I could agree with you on Bosnian Muslims (at least prior to this war as there are many wartime instructors and naturalized citizens from "you know what ME countries" living in Bosnia since 1990s), but please do not attempt to sell Albanians as "tame"......it's just sounds silly to us who know better.

Sorry the fact don't support your "albanians are radical muslims" theory.

i anything the albanians you're thinking of are radical albianians lmao.

their only religon is albania.


there's a reason they're called Muslim Lite

[V.I.D.]

You realize that most not all, of this Islamic terror stuff is all started by Arabs right? And while the non arab muslim population is much much bigger then the Arab one, and these people are fighting against Terrorism and dying you go out and blame these people for condoning Terrorism. Go to Turkey and say that to us, say that almost all Muslims condone terrorism they probably throw you a$$ in Jail with Abdullah Ocalan, you guys could could be "cell mates:hug:". I am right behind you against terrorism, but accusing almost all Muslims of Terrorism, is just the way they think as well. Also laworkerbee, you gave Kosovo and Bosnia as examples of places where Muslims are doing Terrorism, but wasn't it the radical Serbian nationalists that wanted to wipe Muslims off the Balkans? I really cannot understand how defending your self is Terrorism.

Aren't the Turks trying to wipe fellow Muslim Kurds for many years now? How did the "Serbian nationalists" wipe Muslims off the Balkans? By kicking the Turks out of their country in 1912? Such a slimy argument you use there, especially when you and your allies managed to kill so many Serbs and try to steal the holy Christian province of Kosovo. And you've got guts to blame the victims, a typical Muslim hypocrisy.

[Laworkerbee]

Dont worry about 'offending' people - people are dying - that is more offensive. The Islamic world and the talking heads love to play the 'Im mortally offended card, apologise immediately!!'. And we are so silly, we usually fall for it.

The Balkan is just a Muslim guy defending his religion, something he was born into. I don't see him espousing extremist views nor celebrating anything about the Jihadi's and coming from the region he does I'm surprised he doesn't.

He has more in common with us than with the extremists and should it come down to choosing between the two I believe he would choose the West with all of its imperfections over men who follow an ideology of returning to the 7th century.

An open dialog is always the better choice.

[V.I.D.]

Sorry the fact don't support your "albanians are radical muslims" theory.

i anything the albanians you're thinking of are radical albianians lmao.

their only religon is albania.


there's a reason they're called Muslim Lite

There's a reason they are known for their narcotic and women trafficking all over Europe, and would you care to explain how exactly are they "tame"? By attacking the US bases last year? You and your friend Kypchak Turk are definitely experts at giving half-truths and downright lies as "the facts".

[The Balkan]

The Balkan is just a Muslim guy defending his religion, something he was born into. I don't see him espousing extremist views nor celebrating anything about the Jihadi's and coming from the region he does I'm surprised he doesn't.

He has more in common with us than with the extremists and should it come down to choosing between the two I believe he would choose the West with all of its imperfections over men who follow an ideology of returning to the 7th century.

An open dialog is always the better choice.

Thank you. Only one half of my family is even Muslim. My mother's side is Orthodox Christian. I doubt any raidcal Islamist would marry her and name their son something Christian as well. I've never set foot in a mosque in my life.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Aren't the Turks trying to wipe fellow Muslim Kurds for many years now? How did the "Serbian nationalists" wipe Muslims off the Balkans? By kicking the Turks out of their country in 1912? Such a slimy argument you use there, especially when you and your allies managed to kill so many Serbs and try to steal the holy Christian province of Kosovo. And you've got guts to blame the victims, a typical Muslim hypocrisy.


NO! They are doing what Al Queda is doing to U.S.A same thing, of course not all of them, some are even dying trying to protect they home they call Turkey. We are not killing innocent Kurds! What happened to the hundreds of Thousands of ALbanians and Serbians who got murdered have you suddenly forgotten this?

[SBL]

There's a reason they are known for their narcotic and women trafficking all over Europe, and would you care to explain how exactly are they "tame"? By attacking the US bases last year? You and your friend Kypchak Turk are definitely experts at giving half-truths and downright lies as "the facts".

Guys, let's keep the Balkan drama at a minimum.

[The Balkan]

There's a reason they are known for their narcotic and women trafficking all over Europe, and would you care to explain how exactly are they "tame"? By attacking the US bases last year? You and your friend Kypchak Turk are definitely experts at giving half-truths and downright lies as "the facts".

I said they're tame MUSLIMS. As in religius wise. I didn't say they're innocent PEOPLE. I meant it in terms that the fact they're Muslims has nothing to do with the things you just mentioned like drug trafficking. Just like I wouldn't say Serbs did what they did cuz they're ORTHODOX. (btw Serbian crime is just as rampant as albanian if not more powerful throughout the european union lol)

Do you see what I'm saying. I'm not saying the people are all tame, I'm saying their version of Islam is tame. You have to know that all of us, ALL OF US, are balkan, and serb, and bosnian, and albanian FIRST, then we're Muslim and Orthodox and Catholic. We all ddrink alcohol and at least half if not more, eat pork. I do. And do you really think we pray 5 times a day? Lol I don't pray PERIOD.

[V.I.D.]

Guys, let's keep the Balkan drama at a minimum.

Agree...it's not worth getting banned over the argument with people who have selective and pre-programmed reasoning. I wish them good luck in convincing others about those facts.

[Calanen]

Hey man take it fu*king back. Seriously yes I know people are dying, i feel so sorry for them, I wish i could tell there families my condolences. I wish I could tell them that the people who did this to them are not real Muslims. But you see Muslims are dying too. What you said makes us seem like the root cause of the problem we are not, they say they are Muslim they are not. You make it sound like all Muslims should be isolated from the rest of mankind, Hitler said the same about the Jews in WW2! Calanen, you are one of the most racist pr!x I have ever heard of.

Very inflammatory rhetoric, which again, is designed to prevent the discussion of the issue. Racism? What is the race I am referring to? The Jihadi race?

I am referring to the philosophy of jihad within islam, that is not a race...

I am not going to deal with Hitler and jews etc - its just more silliness. Godwin's Law always comes out sooner or later.

So you say these people are not real muslims. I think its likely that a fair amount of people in Turkey actually believe this. But sadly, the Turks are in the minority. What I see is that the majority of the governments in the Islamic world are far more concerned about the 'offence' caused by a Danish cartoon, and chasing newspaper cartoonists to the end of the earth..than they have EVER been concerned about jihadis invoking islam to kill people. Way, way more concerned. If, as you say, these misunderstanders are wrongly invoking the name of Islam in their jihads, why is their far more concern for Danish cartoons than there is for jihadis? Isnt cutting people's heads off in the name of Islam, more offensive, than a cartoon? And if it isnt, shouldnt it be?

The Islamic world is far more focussed at keeping the West quiet and asking that we not notice the global jihad. There are many tricks they use to do so. One is to say, its hate speech or islamaphobia. Keep blowing things up in the name of Islam, but if you ever wish to discuss this topic..that is hate speech so you cant. So any bad press the jihadis may get, and jihad within islam may get ..is silenced. Good strategy huh? Not everyone is going to be silenced however. Not me anyway.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Very inflammatory rhetoric, which again, is designed to prevent the discussion of the issue. Racism? What is the race I am referring to? The Jihadi race?

I am referring to the philosophy of jihad within islam, that is not a race...

I am not going to deal with Hitler and jews etc - its just more silliness. Godwin's Law always comes out sooner or later.

So you say these people are not real muslims. I think its likely that a fair amount of people in Turkey actually believe this. But sadly, the Turks are in the minority. What I see is that the majority of the governments in the Islamic world are far more concerned about the 'offence' caused by a Danish cartoon, and chasing newspaper cartoonists to the end of the earth..than they have EVER been concerned about jihadis invoking islam to kill people. Way, way more concerned. If, as you say, these misunderstanders are wrongly invoking the name of Islam in their jihads, why is their far more concern for Danish cartoons than there is for jihadis? Isnt cutting people's heads off in the name of Islam, more offensive, than a cartoon? And if it isnt, shouldnt it be?

The Islamic world is far more focussed at keeping the West quiet and asking that we not notice the global jihad. There are many tricks they use to do so. One is to say, its hate speech or islamaphobia. Keep blowing things up in the name of Islam, but if you ever wish to discuss this topic..that is hate speech so you cant. So any bad press the jihadis may get, and jihad within islam may get ..is silenced. Good strategy huh? Not everyone is going to be silenced however. Not me anyway.

These people are who the U.S needs to go after!

The news paper cartoon offends good Muslims for "bad non-muslims" just more propaganda, makes them happy. Witch in turn makes the Real Muslims even more mad, because all it is doing is flame bait for the idiots. First thing when I heard of the cartoons, was I was offended, something like this never happens in Turkey, religions are free to practice and would not get made fun of on national news papers, then i said oh crap, more propaganda for the bad-Muslims.

[Hilbert]

The news paper cartoon offends good Muslims for "bad non-muslims" just more propaganda, makes them happy.

I'm sorry but I cannot help but laugh at someone whose feeling "offended" by a bloody cartoon in a newspaper. If one gets insulted at something that trivial, it honestly makes me wonder if it's a self-esteem or perhaps more accurately religious esteem issue. Toughen up.

-Hilde

[The Balkan]

I'm sorry but I cannot help but laugh at someone whose feeling "offended" by a bloody cartoon in a newspaper. If one gets insulted at something that trivial, it honestly makes me wonder if it's a self-esteem or perhaps more accurately religious esteem issue. Toughen up.

-Hilde

I completly agree. Type in Jesus into Google and there's an endless amount of jokes and hillarious pics about him, yet nobody is starting riots over it.

Here's what the Middle East needs.

Alcohol.

Pussy.

Hobbies.

I'm dead serious. Alot of these people walk around dressed head to toe in scorching heat, are sober 24-7 and seldom get laid. Anyone would snap.

[Karaahmetoglu]

I'm sorry but I cannot help but laugh at someone whose feeling "offended" by a bloody cartoon in a newspaper. If one gets insulted at something that trivial, it honestly makes me wonder if it's a self-esteem or perhaps more accurately religious esteem issue. Toughen up.

-Hilde

I was upset greatly because we already get bad press from the idiots, and now this is going to get them going even more and piss them off even more. By the way i get insulted over the Jesus pictures as well, for I see him as a prophet as well. What people believe in should not be made fun of, the people that are not offended by it I see, don't really care about there religion imo. I see Islam as a religion of peace, and those pictures where certainly not supporting peace, only provoking idiots to do more bad stuff, to make my religion look even worse.

[The Balkan]

Anyone should have the freedom to make fun of whatever they want. Why should I care if someone belives in Jesus or Mohammed? Great for them, but is their faith so weak they can't handle knowing somewhere int he world someone is joking about their religion?

We make fun of what people belive and like all the time, so why should religion be off the table? I'm not talking about some huge efforts to make a religion seem like trash through world wide media, I'm just talking about freedom of speech in the streets.

[Hilbert]

I was upset greatly because we already get bad press from the idiots, and now this is going to get them going even more and piss them off even more. By the way i get insulted over the Jesus pictures as well, for I see him as a prophet as well. What people believe in should not be made fun of, the people that are not offended by it I see, don't really care about there religion imo. I see Islam as a religion of peace, and those pictures where certainly not supporting peace, only provoking idiots to do more bad stuff, to make my religion look even worse.

The cartoon, was in all likelihood designed with entertainment in mind and personally, I treat as such. At least in my opinion, if people are going to snap because of a cartoon whether it be about themselves, their religion, or even space invaders, then they need to lay off the caffine and learn some self control and self discipline. If your unhappy with what people are doing because of the pictures and feel its "making your religion look even worse" blame them and their weakness and lack of self control, not the artist. Just my opinion, anyway.

-Hilde

[Calanen]

I see Islam as a religion of peace, and those pictures where certainly not supporting peace, only provoking idiots to do more bad stuff, to make my religion look even worse.


Islam is not, and has never been a religion of peace. A religion that is committed to the concept of warfare against unbelievers and jihad, is not a religion of peace. This glosses over the huge history of jihad and the support for jihad in the hadith and the koran.

[kahn267]

I question the 5-6 million Christians killed - if you referring to soldiers then ok but not your Christian civilian.
there were something like 3 million Gypsies, Mentally disabled and Homo******s that were killed though.

[The Balkan]

Islam is not, and has never been a religion of peace. A religion that is committed to the concept of warfare against unbelievers and jihad, is not a religion of peace. This glosses over the huge history of jihad and the support for jihad in the hadith and the koran.

Then neither has Christianity.

Crusades, inquisitons, burning of "witches" and heretics, Native American genocide, the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in Europe, in Russia, reformation, persecution of Roma all throughout Europe, slave trade, burning crosses and lynching Black men, conquering Africa, India and countless other foriegn lands, dropping of atomic bomb on Japan, litteraly the domination of most of the world since ancient times to this very day....all done by Christians.


"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) 10:34-39 NASB) :)


What your problem is, is that you chalk up ANYTHING and EVERYTHING a Muslim person does, to Jihad. Arabs coquered and expanded like anyone else. Like the Mongols, like Romans, like all empires, yet it's only Muslims who are incapable of doing anything without it always being for and because of religion.

I might scream "THANK YOU GOD! YESS!" when I score a winning goal in soccer, it doesn't mean I'm doing it FOR GOD lmao.

[Hilbert]

Crusades, inquisitons, burning of "witches" and heretics, Native American genocide, the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in Europe, in Russia, reformation, persecution of Roma all throughout Europe, slave trade, burning crosses and lynching Black men, conquering Africa, India and countless other foriegn lands, dropping of atomic bomb on Japan, litteraly the domination of most of the world since ancient times to this very day....all done by Christians.

However not all of this was done in the name of christainity against non-believers.
Although I do agree with you Christainity is no religion of peace either, I don't think such a thing exists. Personally, I view anything taken to an extreme as hazardous, whether it be religion or otherwise.

[gdamadg]

I completly agree. Type in Jesus into Google and there's an endless amount of jokes and hillarious pics about him, yet nobody is starting riots over it.

Here's what the Middle East needs.

Alcohol.

Pussy.

Hobbies.

I'm dead serious. Alot of these people walk around dressed head to toe in scorching heat, are sober 24-7 and seldom get laid. Anyone would snap.

You are absolutely right. :roll: And when they come to 'westerm' countries, are inundated with a world saturated in those things; the Muslim youth ignore their faith and partake. p-) Then western culture is blamed for corrupting their youth because opportunity is every where.

[gdamadg]

I question the 5-6 million Christians killed - if you referring to soldiers then ok but not your Christian civilian.
there were something like 3 million Gypsies, Mentally disabled and Homo******s that were killed though.

I believe the numbers that were referred are the approx. 6 million Slavic civilians, which would have more than likely practised a form of Orthodox Christianity.

[The Balkan]

However not all of this was done in the name of christainity against non-believers.
Although I do agree with you Christainity is no religion of peace either, I don't think such a thing exists. Personally, I view anything taken to an extreme as hazardous, whether it be religion or otherwise.

My point exactly though. You wouldn't blame everything a Christian does on his religion, like people do on Muslims or like they used to on Blacks or whoever else was the hated group at the time. How many criminals are of a Christian background? Virtualy all Mafiosos and gangsters. Would anyone seriosly even bring their faith into the conversation when talking about their actions?

This is what people don't get. When someone is attacked or feels threatend or when there's any type of conflict, people want to group up and stick with their own, and they look for that one thing the unifies them, and in the Arab world that's Islam. That's the strongest link. The root of the conflict is something completly different like land or money, but when fighting you stick with your own and it ends up "this group against this group". You see what I'm trying to say?

If my neighborhood is mostly Asian, and a neighborhood that's mostly Black attacks some people from my neighborhood over some money or something and leaves like 20 Asians dead, guess what that looks like? You see a bunch of Blacks killing a bunch of Asians and assume it's racial.

Nobody would say that the war on terror is a Christian war on Muslims, but it could easily be painted as that since the majority of Americans that invaded Iraw are obviosly Christians.

[The Balkan]

I believe the numbers that were referred are the approx. 6 million Slavic civilians, which would have more than likely practised a form of Orthodox Christianity.

Anyone who resisted was killed, which included plenty of Roma, Bosnians and Croats along with the huge numbers of Serbs. I think I read somewhere that around 100,000 Bosniaks were killed in Jasenovac camp, but alot of the time they'd just put them in the same category as Roma for some reason. Dont forget, partisans weren't just Serbs.

[Hilbert]

I'm not saying it's automatically jihad or what have you or automatically Islam just because of the person. However, when your enemy is coming out and clearly saying he's doing [insert action here] in the name of Allah "the most gracious and most merciful," or screaming "Allah Ahkbar!" before he detonates himself in a suicide attack on U.S., NATO, or even Russian Soldiers, I do find a connection there. Does that automatically mean all muslims are bad? No, I wouldn't say that; hell, one of my close freinds is a muslim and I'm not worried about him trying to commit martyrdom anytime soon. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that clearly there is a large group of people affiliated with the Islamic Religion who do feel that it's their god-given calling to go out and murder people just because they don't share their religious views. Muslims may not be the only ones in human history to commit this type of act but they're probably the only group I know of that does it in on any type of large, global scale (in the form of terrorist movements as we're facing in Iraq and Afghanistan along with our Allies and as the Russians faced in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Degastan) in present day.

I understand that just about anything can be taken to an extreme; that's plausible with anything. What I remain curious to is why it seems to exist so prominently among self-proclaimed practicioners of the Muslim faith in modern times and why many Muslims seem so damn defensive of any and every form of criticism and indeed tend to respond violently to them. Personally, I encourage and welcome criticism; I see it as being to a degree a natural part of learning and obtaining greater knowledge and understanding as a whole. However, when people feel the need to snap into a violent frenzy and indeed even respond with a barrage of death threats over something so simple as a damn cartoon, that's when I start to wonder about things. Particularly, why is there so much damn sensitivity againt criticism and not the same type of rage being shown to those who commit terrorists actions in the name of Islam (which several of my Muslim freinds have referred to as "un-muslim behavior" or a "disgrace to Islam").

-Hilde

[Adux]

I completly agree. Type in Jesus into Google and there's an endless amount of jokes and hillarious pics about him, yet nobody is starting riots over it.

Here's what the Middle East needs.

Alcohol.

Pussy.

Hobbies.

I'm dead serious. Alot of these people walk around dressed head to toe in scorching heat, are sober 24-7 and seldom get laid. Anyone would snap.

They have all of that and more, that hasnt stopped them.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2007/09/dubai_***_for_s.html

I might agree with you on certain counts, that is there are quite lot of secular muslims out there, but even they agree on one count which is the most important one there is a vast majority lot of muslims who sympthaize with terrorist or somehow justify their causes. "America kills from 10,000ft above so why not 9/11" or "they have no other choice but to fight like this". These modern muslims are discriminated and called non-muslims. The problem is Muslims feel the people who follow the true islam are the one's who are hardcore. Their faith is in other people's hands.
Link to Arabs, is something muslims cant sever, Mecca and Medina are in Arabia, Petro dollars from arab-lands come to all country including mine to convert all muslims and non-muslims into Salafi/Wahabi sects. If reformation of Islam has to happen, like the reformation of Christainity then it has to happen in Saudi Arabia, not anywhere else.

[Calanen]

Then neither has Christianity.

I'm not a Christian, so I dont really care what Christianity is. And I don't call it a religion of peace.




Crusades,


Got no problem with Crusades. They were in response to the muslims taking over most of Spain and France.


inquisitons

Not a lot of those going on at the moment though is there?


burning of "witches" and heretics,

Countries in the Islamic world still execute peopleo for witchcraft and blasphemy. The West has moved on a bit since the Middle Ages.


Native American genocide,

Can't really see the connection with Christianity there, other than they were Christians. I dont think that it was part of a Crusade. But what was done to the Native Indians, I am not going to defend. But it really is irrelevant to whatever islam is doing.




the Holocaust,


Can't blame christianity for that either. Hitler and the NSDAP was a secular organisation. They had christians in them, but thought organised religion was a bit silly.


ethnic cleansing in Europe,

Cant really blame christianty for that either.


in Russia, reformation, persecution of Roma all throughout Europe,
slave trade,

The Arabs are right up to their necks in the slave trade, and slaves have a long tradition in Islam


burning crosses and lynching Black men,

Bit hard to see the christian connection here. While they might have been using crosses, the KKK is widely condemned by Christians, and certainly neither they nor the majority of Christians would seek to justify what they did on anything the bible says.


conquering Africa, India and countless other foriegn lands,

Or here. And Islam has done a fair bit of conquering too.


dropping of atomic bomb on Japan,

Now the above is just silly. Japan attacked the US.



litteraly the domination of most of the world since ancient times to this very day....all done by Christians.

And Christians have also killed each other a lot. While people of religions have done particular things, the majority of the time it was not done because of their religion, with the exception of the Crusade. And even they were primarily in response to islamic expansion into Europe.




"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) 10:34-39 NASB) :)


You have found a bible quote. Who exactly is leading a jihad anywhere for Christianity based on this bible quote? Nobody? A few people?




What your problem is, is that you chalk up ANYTHING and EVERYTHING a Muslim person does, to Jihad.


Quite often it is the muslims themselves, that say they are doing this for jihad.


Arabs coquered and expanded like anyone else.

In the name of jihad.

But all of this is just a distraction, and another example, of the islamic tactic of OH YEAH WELL WHAT ABOUT YOU! It is sleight of hand, and designed to distract attention from the problems of jihad, rather than debate the true issue, which is, there are a hell of alot more muslims doing things in the name of jihad - then there are christians or any other religion.

[The Balkan]

I'm not a Christian, so I dont really care what Christianity is. And I don't call it a religion of peace.



Got no problem with Crusades. They were in response to the muslims taking over most of Spain and France.



Not a lot of those going on at the moment though is there?



Countries in the Islamic world still execute peopleo for witchcraft and blasphemy. The West has moved on a bit since the Middle Ages.



Can't really see the connection with Christianity there, other than they were Christians. I dont think that it was part of a Crusade. But what was done to the Native Indians, I am not going to defend. But it really is irrelevant to whatever islam is doing.




Can't blame christianity for that either. Hitler and the NSDAP was a secular organisation. They had christians in them, but thought organised religion was a bit silly.

,

Cant really blame christianty for that either.


in Russia, reformation, persecution of Roma all throughout Europe,

The Arabs are right up to their necks in the slave trade, and slaves have a long tradition in Islam



Bit hard to see the christian connection here. While they might have been using crosses, the KKK is widely condemned by Christians, and certainly neither they nor the majority of Christians would seek to justify what they did on anything the bible says.



Or here. And Islam has done a fair bit of conquering too.



Now the above is just silly. Japan attacked the US.




And Christians have also killed each other a lot. While people of religions have done particular things, the majority of the time it was not done because of their religion, with the exception of the Crusade. And even they were primarily in response to islamic expansion into Europe.




You have found a bible quote. Who exactly is leading a jihad anywhere for Christianity based on this bible quote? Nobody? A few people?



Quite often it is the muslims themselves, that say they are doing this for jihad.



In the name of jihad.

But all of this is just a distraction, and another example, of the islamic tactic of OH YEAH WELL WHAT ABOUT YOU! It is sleight of hand, and designed to distract attention from the problems of jihad, rather than debate the true issue, which is, there are a hell of alot more muslims doing things in the name of jihad - then there are christians or any other religion.

Yea well most of the world's Christians don't live in the enviorments and political situations that most of the world's Muslims do. An extreme enviorment certinaly does have an affect on people and their mentality. Not even you can deny that.

And very, very few maniacs will kill and die, simply just for religion, no matter what they're yelling out. Don't be naive. Like I already said, religion and ALLAHU EKBER, can be a motivation when you already in war, or a tool of your cause, but it has little to do with the reason they're at war. You don't understand, that's usualy nothing but a war cry to these guys. You can't tell me they just woke up one day and decided lets kill anyone who isn't a Muslim. Those people are in the vast minority and they are maniacs.

Most of the insurgents in Iraq want USA out and control of their land right? They want foriengers out. So if USA agreed and left tomorow, would they stop their so called "Jihad"? Or would they go on and attack the United States even after meeting their demands, simplty for being "the great Satan".

One of the stupidest things I've seen you say is "it has nothing to do with American foreign policy". Of course it does.

What would make me wonna get violent? Someone threatning me, or robbing me or anything along those lines. And that's what alot of them see happening to them. As far as I can tell Bosnians and Albanians aren't blowing themsevles up every week in crowded markets. Turks aren't either. Why is that? By your logic they should be, they're Muslims.

Tell me why me and my family aren't doing terror attacks or suporting terrorists.

[Hilbert]

Most of the insurgents in Iraq want USA out and control of their land right? They want foriengers out. So if USA agreed and left tomorow, would they stop their so called "Jihad"? Or would they go on and attack the United States even after meeting their demands, simplty for being "the great Satan".

So is this why it's been reported that so many foreign, non-iraqi fighters and jihadists in Iraq? It's this kind of stuff that really gets things into a "blur" for me, especially when it's like this in areas other than Iraq as well, take Chechnya for instance: islamic mercenaries and jihadists extremists flocked to the region like flies to sh*t; my understanding is that by the later part of the Second War, the Russians were dealing more with foreign islamic terrorists than they were native born Chechens. Why is this? Why are these things so similar?


One of the stupidest things I've seen you say is "it has nothing to do with American foreign policy". Of course it does.

Perhaps the fact that we've shown the will to take action against the enemy has served as a catalyst and caused an increase in activity, but even back during Clinton's years and other years of relative appeasement we still suffered attacks from Muslim Extremist, terrorist nut jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only difference I'm seeing is now we're fighting back.

-Hilde

[The Balkan]

So is this why it's been reported that so many foreign, non-iraqi fighters and jihadists in Iraq? It's this kind of stuff that really gets things into a "blur" for me, especially when it's like this in areas other than Iraq as well, take Chechnya for instance: islamic mercenaries and jihadists extremists flocked to the region like flies to sh*t; my understanding is that by the later part of the Second War, the Russians were dealing more with foreign islamic terrorists than they were native born Chechens. Why is this? Why are these things so similar?

Muslims coming to the aid of other Muslims. Is that any stranger then Albanians and Serbs And Croats who came to fight from abroad. There was even Russian mercs on the Serb side.

Islam definetly says to defend Muslims, that is clear and undeniable, and those who are religious to that extent will go just like Christians went to help Croats and Serbs, but to a much much smaller extent. Why? Honestly cuz most of the Christian world isn't as rooted and religious as most of the Muslim world is. Christians kind of half ass their religion in modern places lol.

But just to point out I don't think there is anything wrong with a religion or belif system that says to defend yourself.

And if I recall "eye for an eye" didn't originate in Islam....




Perhaps the fact that we've shown the will to take action against the enemy has served as a catalyst and caused an increase in activity, but even back during Clinton's years and other years of relative appeasement we still suffered attacks from Muslim Extremist, terrorist nut jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only difference I'm seeing is now we're fighting back.

-Hilde

In Iraq though? Was Iraq this warzone before USA invaded? A brutal dictatorship yes, but a warzone? Nah. You can't deny these people want America out lol.

I would say Saudi Arabia is the biggest problem, and the most radical, yet nobody touches them for obvious reasons.

[Lazy Lob]

He is not speaking in terms of countries but of Islams taste for warfare since its inception.

You mean like the crusades? :roll:

The word you missed was "inception". LAWB is quite correct.

The first Crusade was about 10 centuries after Christianity's "inception".


in·cep·tion (n-spshn)
n.
The beginning of something, such as an undertaking; a commencement

Christ's and Muhammad's philosophies were quite different. But I think you know that.

[INAT]

I feel the original story is scare mongering at its best the people
who are pulling the strings use Islam as a very potent and deadly weapon. The false flag operations and and counter gangs would make
General Frank Kitson proud.I find the story to be an almost child like mentality and fear of Islam.And fear is as effective as a bullet.With that said there is for me two Islams both are dangerous for certain countries.
One is the natural progression of Islam in its rigid and intransigent path.
The other is that Islam shaped developed and molded into a sword for
strategic objectives that are not necessarily those of Islam but of other
interests.

[DaveDash]

In Iraq though? Was Iraq this warzone before USA invaded? A brutal dictatorship yes, but a warzone? Nah. You can't deny these people want America out lol.

Why are most of them now on the U.S. side then?

The reason a lot of them wanted the U.S. out, and the state of affairs turned so bad, is largely due to the influence of the neighbouring countries not wanting a huge U.S. presence on their borders AND the mistrust of the Western supported coupe that lead to asbolute disaster and mistrust in the 90s.



I would say Saudi Arabia is the biggest problem, and the most radical, yet nobody touches them for obvious reasons.

That obvious reason is because the Saudi Arabia government is the devil we know. Look what happened to Pakistan after Musharrif got shelved for examples of what would happen to Saudi Arabia if the west suddenly went gung-ho at them.
Despite their faults,the Saudi Royal Family is a lot easier to deal with than whatever nut job that would rise from the ashes if the West started disabling the governments.

Look at it like this, at the moment the West, in particular, the U.S. is well on it's way to getting a lot of U.S. dependant governments in the Middle East. That is good for them, and good for the world in general. When was the last time Egypt attacked Israel, for example?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the point of this article, while exaggerated, is mostly true.

The West started to look very weak over the 90s in particular with its pansy attitude of running everytime things got rough or just bombing things from the air, which only inspired extremist groups to up the pressure, leading to eventually 9-11.

If the U.S. in particular got tough on Al-Q during the 90s (one can understand why it didn't however) a lot of grief today would have been avoided. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but this retired General is just asking that the same mistakes dont be repeated.

My belief is that the U.S. could have done a lot more to "win" the current situation in Afghanistan and Iraq, but due to their internal bickering they have flailed around aimlessly. It's only shere testiment to the U.S.'s power that they have almost subdued Iraq, considering a good third of the U.S seems intent on fighting itself and wanting it to fail. This message is very clear in the article, and probably the most worrying of all. At least the U.S. has a political system that allows decision, unlike most western countries that are bogged down with indecision by governments who need small extreme parties toget majority rule (mine included).

Even bad decisions are good decisions, because they can be learnt from. No decision is the worst decision, as we all found out after the soft foreign policy of the 90's allowed these threats to grow.

I think the article exaggerates of the price of failure, but there is no doubt a lot of people would be alive today, and a lot more will live tomorrow, if we stopped bickering amongst ourselves and got the decisions that were made over and done with.

[Hilbert]

Muslims coming to the aid of other Muslims. Is that any stranger then Albanians and Serbs And Croats who came to fight from abroad. There was even Russian mercs on the Serb side.

Strangely, my understanding is that this "aid" actually caused a shake up in the Chechens and a number of defections, even a full blown batallion composed of Chechens that had switched sides. I recall a story where a modern day Chechen police officer, who during the earlier part of the Second War, fought against the Russians (but later switched sides) explained that while he wasn't to fond of the Russians, but their (the Chechens) "aid" as you put it, the islamic screwballs, absolutely terrified him, and he says that's why he switched sides.


In Iraq though? Was Iraq this warzone before USA invaded? A brutal dictatorship yes, but a warzone? Nah. You can't deny these people want America out lol.

No it was not a warzone before we invaded and toppled Saddam's regime, I don't recall anyone saying it was. As far as wanting America out, I haven't asked any Iraqis recently (or in all of my life) about that so I am not qualified to speak for a single of them nor do I intend to; anything I said would be purely an assumption. Although to be perfectly honest, I really don't care; that isn't the focus of what I'm interested in. Personally I find it rather interesting, at least in the viewpoint of an observer of the War, it seems alot of Iraqis have been growing uneasy about their foreign fighters and Al-Qaeda "aid", even to the point of switching sides and in some capacities and taking up arms against them; at least on the cover to me it doesn't seem all that different from what alot of Chechens did.

____________

Looking back on this, all I can say is "Woah" at just how far off from what I originally brought up I've gone but oh well. Anyway that's all for me for the night.

To Calanen: I agree with some of what you say, but other areas you just take things way to far for me to see eye to eye with you on, either way your viewpoint does provide some interesting food for thought.

-Hilde

[DaveDash]

Actually a minor point.

Iraq was technically a warzone ever since Saddam invaded Kuwait. There was never peace, only a cease-fire in certian parts of the country,and a failed coupe that had political repercussions into the late 90s on the Iraqi population.

All it would have taken was for one U.S. plane to be shot down, even well before Bush came near the Oval Office, for the cease fire to be broken. Might have even happened under Clinton.

People tend to forget that.

[The Balkan]

Well I thought this was interesting, saw it on wiki.


Here (http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=22235) Osama bin Laden says clearly:
This is why they established institutions and enacted laws to maintain their supremacy by creating the United Nations and the veto power ... . They regard jihad for the sake of God or defending one's self or his country as an act of terror. US and Europe consider jihad groups in Palestine, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan as terrorist groups, so how could we talk or have understanding with them without using weapons?

Osama bin Laden mentions:

Meanwhile, a UN resolution passed more than half a century ago gave Muslim Kashmir the liberty of choosing independence from India and Kashmir. George Bush, the leader of the Crusaders' campaign, announced a few days ago that he will order his converted agent [Pakistan President Pervez] Musharraf to shut down the Kashmir mujahidin camps, thus affirming that it is a Zionist-Hindu war against Muslims.


Osama bin Laden says:

The Palestine question is a manifestation of such injustices when the allied forces of the Crusaders and the Zionists decided to hand over Palestine to the Zionists to establish a state after committing massacres, displaced the indigenous Palestinians and brought Jews from all over the world to settle in Palestine. The ongoing injustice and aggression did not stop in the last nine decades, while all attempts to reclaim our rights and exact justice on the Israeli oppressors, were blocked by the leadership of the Crusaders and Zionists' alliance by using the so-called veto power.
and here, clearly says:

This is a continuous Crusader-Zionist war against Muslims. In this respect I am inviting the mujahidin and their supporters in the Sudan and other countries around, including the Arabian peninsula in particular, to prepare all that is needed for a long-term war against the Crusaders and thieves in western Sudan.


Shows a little insight into how people like him think at least. Their reasons.

[DaveDash]

Osama is (was) first and foremost a clever politician. Yabbering on about the crusades and yada yada just gave him a good recruiting pool. Didn't help that Bush started to bring God into this either.

None-the-less the Crusades and this are mostly the same, just the roles reversed. The leaders of an overpopulated, burdened Europe needed something to divert the poor uneducated rabble at and gain popularity. Just like the Arab leaders need that now (see Israel, U.S. etc etc).

[Hilbert]

EDIT: Nevermind, completely misread your post. Just more proof I'm getting tired and need sleep. G'night fellas.

[The Balkan]

Zionist... Crusader... For some reason this reminds me of that "find" that Pepsi Co. is actually an evil Zionist plot to help Israel.

Look at the source of those quotes man, and if your even going to consider calling that credible, at least take with a grain -- or an entire bag -- of salt.

-Hilde

No man I wasn't agreeing with them or anything like that, I just thought it was interesting coming from one of the main people behind the **** we're discussing.

[PeterRJG]

Pretty daft to compare what motivates a Christian and what motivates a Muslim. Christianity is a religion, it's something most people do on Sundays, sing a few songs, put some money on the plate, donate to a raffle, throw some old clothes in to the Salvation Army's bins.

Monday through Saturday, the average Christian doesn't give a rat's about a whole lot, save a few pleasantries about not taking the Lord's name in vain, love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek and a few other pieces of trivia.

Islam, on the other hand, is a lifestyle. It governs every aspect of life for its believers, from dusk to dawn. Everything from ritual hand-washing to women shaving their legs and pussies. It governs what they can eat, what pets they can and can't keep in the house, and so forth. It says that men can't wear gold and silks, as they're for women. It outlines everything that a devout Muslims needs to do to live his/her daily life.

It has no understanding of "church", there is no separation of "church" life and secular life for the devout Muslim. From the minute they get up and take their morning piss, right down to the *** married couples have of a night - Islam is there with them.

So, comparing what drives a Christian and what drives a Muslim is nonsensical.

[Heinemann]

Everything from ritual hand-washing to women shaving their legs and pussies.

He isnt joking folks, if I remember correctly the wife needed to shave her beaver every 4 weeks to be a good Muslima.

[Holycrusader]

He isnt joking folks, if I remember correctly the wife needed to shave her beaver every 4 weeks to be a good Muslima.

my lifre was sad without that info

[shire19]

Islam is not, and has never been a religion of peace. A religion that is committed to the concept of warfare against unbelievers and jihad, is not a religion of peace. This glosses over the huge history of jihad and the support for jihad in the hadith and the koran.

As usual Calanen, you have an tendency to blame Islam for each and every violent act committed by the extremists to this day. To you it seems Islam is actually urging them to do what they do rather than focusing on other reasons.

It almost seems like to you, if they were not followers of Islam they wouldn't be terrorists at all. And that makes you an bigot...

Stop focusing on the religion and focus on blaming the extremists... There are an larger majority of Muslims out there proving you wrong on how peacefull their religion can be.

[Calanen]

As usual Calanen, you have an tendency to blame Islam for each and every violent act committed by the extremists to this day. To you it seems Islam is actually urging them to do what they do rather than focusing on other reasons.

They say Islam is urging them to do it. They say, that they are Islamic terrorists. I don't say anything, and if I did, they wouldnt listen to me.


It almost seems like to you, if they were not followers of Islam they wouldn't be terrorists at all.

Given that they are Islamic terrorists, who kill people in the name of Islam, probably not..




And that makes you an bigot...


Sticks and stones...

So I am a bigot for saying, the Islamic terrorists, call themselves Islamic terrorists? Should I censor them for their bigotry? Or just pretend that people who say, I am an Islamic terrorist, allah abar jihad..are doing it for some other reason.


Stop focusing on the religion and focus on blaming the extremists... There are an larger majority of Muslims out there proving you wrong on how peacefull their religion can be.

And why are the 'extremists' saying they are doing things? Because of Islam, and they have a long history of jihad both in the hadith and the koran to rely upon to back up their point of view. Where are the peaceful muslims saying 'You infidel, we reject jihad! We hate you and you are not muslims, we issue a fatwa against you!' .....Silence. Why is that? Why are the 'peaceful' muslims far more interested in criticising Westerners for commenting on Islamic terrorism than trying to stop it or denouncing the terrorists? Why is it the Islamic world puts massive resources into denoucning the cartoon of a Danish newspaper, instead of confronting jihadis within their own communities?

The Islamic world is far more interested in getting the West to ignore the jihadis, than it is in trying to stop them.

Instead, the 'peaceful' islamic world is more concerned with violently opposing the Teddy Bears of Blasphemy, the Soccer Balls of Blasphemy, and the cartoons of blasphemy. Massive resources of Islamic governments focussed on stopping 'hate speech' and 'Islamophobia', when there would be no islamophobia if they spent even a fraction of the same amount of time on fighting the culture of jihad instead of the enormous amounts of money on pathetic things like who publishes a cartoon.

People like yourself just don't get it. But you will.

[BRCAK]

ok this forum is useless why dont we just end it on the note that no religion is better than the other. islam is a religion of peace as is christianity and judaism all religions have their bad sides and did bad things mostly because people in power used religion to drive people to do somthing for them.......these religions have soooo much in common but people take the small diffrences and turn it into a big deal. you know you guys arent gonna get anywhere with this arguement

[shire19]

They say Islam is urging them to do it. They say, that they are Islamic terrorists. I don't say anything, and if I did, they wouldnt listen to me

Given that they are Islamic terrorists, who kill people in the name of Islam, probably not...

Thanks for proving my point.



So I am a bigot for saying, the Islamic terrorists, call themselves Islamic terrorists? Should I censor them for their bigotry? Or just pretend that people who say, I am an Islamic terrorist, allah abar jihad..are doing it for some other reason..

No, simply because you cant seem to seperate the extremists and the rest of the mainstream Islamic world.



And why are the 'extremists' saying they are doing things? Because of Islam, and they have a long history of jihad both in the hadith and the koran to rely upon to back up their point of view. Where are the peaceful muslims saying 'You infidel, we reject jihad! We hate you and you are not muslims, we issue a fatwa against you!' .....Silence. Why is that? Why are the 'peaceful' muslims far more interested in criticising Westerners for commenting on Islamic terrorism than trying to stop it or denouncing the terrorists? Why is it the Islamic world puts massive resources into denoucning the cartoon of a Danish newspaper, instead of confronting jihadis within their own communities?

The Islamic world is far more interested in getting the West to ignore the jihadis, than it is in trying to stop them.

Instead, the 'peaceful' islamic world is more concerned with violently opposing the Teddy Bears of Blasphemy, the Soccer Balls of Blasphemy, and the cartoons of blasphemy. Massive resources of Islamic governments focussed on stopping 'hate speech' and 'Islamophobia', when there would be no islamophobia if they spent even a fraction of the same amount of time on fighting the culture of jihad instead of the enormous amounts of money on pathetic things like who publishes a cartoon.

People like yourself just don't get it. But you will.

No Muslim will reject the Jihad you mention, its part of Islam. To defend oneself against intolerance, oppression etc. Don't make it seem like Jihad is an form of terrorism.

And if you wanted to see Muslims across the world stand up against terror all you have to do is google it and you'd find examples of this;

http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/11/massive-muslim-demonstration-against.html
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/09/5000-algerians-protest-terrorism.html
http://amberandchaos.com/blog/2006/03/05/massive-muslim-protest-in-bahrain-against-terrorism/

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/Kontractor21/protest_londonshia.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/Kontractor21/bang.jpghttp://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/Kontractor21/morocco1_0.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/Kontractor21/casablanca3.jpg

[Ichabod]

there is no stopping an overwhelming growing population.

Oh really?

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/Zlayson/stalin.jpg

I think he disagrees.

[Greg27]

Who are starting to pass muslim friendly laws in the Netherlands and the UK?

I'll save you some time and answer that question myself: there are no recognized Islamist parties nor even a single Islamist parliament member in any of the European nations. None. Not even in the Netherlands, the UK or France. Good luck passing any laws with that political presentation.

Now if a 5-10% muslim minority can't or aren't interested in getting even one Islamist politician elected or an Islamic political party started I don't see how that is going to change much even if their numbers suddenly trippled.

see bbc and other countless articles in foreign press over the past few years hinting in that direction. see the current shariah law debate in UK, political representation or not:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

i recollect the french government running into serious trouble last year or the year prior that, about parents of muslim girls wanted them wearing the head scarf in public schools. so you're right maybe the laws haven't been passed yet, but as the bbc says it is "unavoidable".
other members feel free to correct/add if erroneous.

[Xmith]

After reading a few lines a word came to my mind: PROPAGANDA.

[Winger]

see bbc and other countless articles in foreign press over the past few years hinting in that direction. see the current shariah law debate in UK, political representation or not:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

i recollect the french government running into serious trouble last year or the year prior that, about parents of muslim girls wanted them wearing the head scarf in public schools. so you're right maybe the laws haven't been passed yet, but as the bbc says it is "unavoidable".
other members feel free to correct/add if erroneous.

Makes you sick doesn't it? There should be no laws passed to accomodate their religion. Why are they special? The fact that the existing laws allow them to practice their religion freely is more than enough, but not for many of them.

[Kaapeli]

see bbc and other countless articles in foreign press over the past few years hinting in that direction. see the current shariah law debate in UK, political representation or not:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

Dr Williams (who?) and some insane priest are a "political debate"?
I'm sure the British public and parliament are quick to comply to these two neverheards.

What next? "Scientologist Tom Cruise says the Xenu invasion is inevitable" and call it a political debate?


i recollect the french government running into serious trouble last year or the year prior that, about parents of muslim girls wanted them wearing the head scarf in public schools. so you're right maybe the laws haven't been passed yet, but as the bbc says it is "unavoidable". other members feel free to correct/add if erroneous.

BBC doesn't say anything. "Dr Williams" did, whoever he is. It's called quoting.

And people should be free to wear whatever they want.

[Greg27]

And people should be free to wear whatever they want.

ok then. thank you for your invaluable input, we couldn't have finished this discussion without you. too bad you missed the big picture and got lost on prickly details... you actually seemed like a great addition to this debate at first.

i guess what you really want is the last word, i'll be magnanimous and give it to you, here: [THE LAST WORD]

cheers.

[LEB101]

Say whatever you want about the Middle East, that's your problem, your history, but don't tell me what I and MY people condone or support. I've never supported any Jihad or any religiosly motivated terror attack, and neither has anyone I've ever known. The only conflicts I or anyone I know has ever supported, had nothing to do with spreading religion or declaring war on "infidels". Bosnia and Kosovo and Albania are recognized as some of the tamest most secular Muslims on Earth, yet he puts them on that list and talks as if the religion caused those conflicts in order to spread Islam. As if the people on the other side of the conflict, who did way more damage, weren't Christians, yet NOBODY would for a second think to say "Christian holy war. As if those conflicts weren't about politics, and land and to lesser extent ethnicity. I survived both wars and never once heard any dumb **** about spreading Islam. Mostly I heard about survival and land. Christians shot at me, was it cuz they were Christians? We managed to co-exist with NO problem for like 40 years, must've been magic? So when some douchebag on the net who thinks he knows what's going on in places he's never been to, with people he's never met, tells me he knows better, and essentialy calls me and everyone I know terrorists, I get a little annoyed.

He wasn't talking directly to me but part of my heretige is Islamic culture and although I'm nothing close to a real Muslim in the religous sense (I've never practised any religion in my life), it's clear his ass is afraid of some world wide Islamic takeover.

I've never denied radical Islam is a problem, but I have a problem when people start saying the root of that problem is some natural inferiority or evil or some dumb ****.

There's litteraly hundreds of reasons why the Middle East is like it is, and simply saying "their religon sucks and is evil", sure as hell ain't the answer.

I love how when Christians are violent there's always some other reason besides them being Christians, yet a Muslim can never be just an idiot, or just a criminal, or just a murderer, he's always a Muslim first and that is the root of his defficiency. it's the same thing they used to use to prove how "bab" Blacks were. The Black race had to be perfect, make sure none of their people were morons like everyone else, cuz if there's even a few, the whole group is gonna be judged by it. What a great logic. I guess everyone should look at Western whites as culture stealing, slave trading, imperialist cracker ass white devils.
i didnt say all i said most . its thr truth most muslims hate america and israel and most support terrorist acts

[Mate]

ok this forum is useless why dont we just end it on the note that no religion is better than the other. islam is a religion of peace as is christianity and judaism all religions have their bad sides and did bad things mostly because people in power used religion to drive people to do somthing for them.......these religions have soooo much in common but people take the small diffrences and turn it into a big deal. you know you guys arent gonna get anywhere with this arguement
I agree......Islam and Christianity Judaism and other religions do not represent hate....every time there is some retard that uses religion to achieve some vicious goals.

[Hollis]

Thanks for proving my point.



No, simply because you cant seem to separate the extremists and the rest of the mainstream Islamic world.



No Muslim will reject the Jihad you mention, its part of Islam. To defend oneself against intolerance, oppression etc. Don't make it seem like Jihad is an form of terrorism.

And if you wanted to see Muslims across the world stand up against terror all you have to do is google it and you'd find examples of this;

http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/11/massive-muslim-demonstration-against.html
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/09/5000-algerians-protest-terrorism.html
http://amberandchaos.com/blog/2006/03/05/massive-muslim-protest-in-bahrain-against-terrorism/








Shire, I think dialog is needed between the Muslim community and non-Muslim community. If anything Calanen is simulating just that. Often world events tend to be reported in a black and white manner. The extremes are pointed out and the middle is ignored, even though the preponderance of people are in the middle. I would say it is natural for non-Muslims to see the whole Islamic community as being monolithic. Just as some Muslims see the non-Islamic community that way too. I think dialog is the best way to erode those false views.


You can also google Progressive Islam. I use to read a progressive Muslim scholar in the 70's. One thing we know is certain in life is change. Hopefully to can add to positive change.

[V.I.D.]

So is this why it's been reported that so many foreign, non-iraqi fighters and jihadists in Iraq? It's this kind of stuff that really gets things into a "blur" for me, especially when it's like this in areas other than Iraq as well, take Chechnya for instance: islamic mercenaries and jihadists extremists flocked to the region like flies to sh*t; my understanding is that by the later part of the Second War, the Russians were dealing more with foreign islamic terrorists than they were native born Chechens. Why is this? Why are these things so similar?



Perhaps the fact that we've shown the will to take action against the enemy has served as a catalyst and caused an increase in activity, but even back during Clinton's years and other years of relative appeasement we still suffered attacks from Muslim Extremist, terrorist nut jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only difference I'm seeing is now we're fighting back.

-Hilde

This is a good post. I don't know about the first paragraph but it makes sense considering that many Bosnian Muslims got fed up with mujahedin volunteers during and after the war (for not being "good Muslims" - drinking, premarital ***, etc.). Unfortunately, some had fell for the "teachings" so even today in Sarajevo's old town you can see younger local Muslims with strange beards and clothing that are definitely not typical for Balkans, but are rather stemming from ME influence/religious teaching. The second paragraph is spot on.

[The Balkan]

This is a good post. I don't know about the first paragraph but it makes sense considering that many Bosnian Muslims got fed up with mujahedin volunteers during and after the war (for not being "good Muslims" - drinking, premarital ***, etc.). Unfortunately, some had fell for the "teachings" so even today in Sarajevo's old town you can see younger local Muslims with strange beards and clothing that are definitely not typical for Balkans, but are rather stemming from ME influence/religious teaching. The second paragraph is spot on.


I prefer this side of Bosnia :)


http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/06/21_Grad/P6210036_resize.JPG


http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/06/23_Grad/P6230152_resize.JPG




http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/06/23_Grad/P6230086_resize.JPG

http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/06/21_Grad/P6210081_resize.JPG


http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/05/29_grad2/P5300141_resize.JPG


http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/05/29_grad/P5300176_resize.JPG


http://photo.infobar.ba/albums/2008/05/25_grad/P5260248.jpg

[V.I.D.]

I do, too. I think I've recognized the chick on the first photo :)

[Laworkerbee]

I do, too. I think I recognize the chick on the first photo :)

Lying bastard! I demand more pictures as proof! woot

[BRCAK]

I prefer this side of Bosnia :)






















i do too love that bosnia :) thats one of the reasons i keep going there every year. middle eastern coutnries can learn from bosnia that you can be a muslim and still enjoy walking aorund like those girls are doing.....the head scarf and the cover yourself up thing in islam didnt come untill later times it wasnt always like that. i think just about all the muslims in the new generations realized that, its just that their governments are somtimes i think filled with retards.......for most of you who probably dont know in iran the younger people are excepting the new modern world i mean theres more plastic surgery going on in tehran than in california

[BRCAK]

Lying bastard! I demand more pictures as proof! woot
yes more pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!please :)

[The Balkan]

Even when they do wear the scarf they wear it in bright flashy colors, it's not that bad lmao Typical Balkan ciganluk! gotta love it!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1335/1252298414_c49265f09b_b.jpg

[Lazy Lob]

Shire, I think dialog is needed between the Muslim community and non-Muslim community. If anything Calanen is simulating just that. Often world events tend to be reported in a black and white manner. The extremes are pointed out and the middle is ignored, even though the preponderance of people are in the middle. I would say it is natural for non-Muslims to see the whole Islamic community as being monolithic. Just as some Muslims see the non-Islamic community that way too. I think dialog is the best way to erode those false views.


You can also google Progressive Islam. I use to read a progressive Muslim scholar in the 70's. One thing we know is certain in life is change. Hopefully to can add to positive change.

You see Hollis I believe dialogue between Islam and the rest of humanity is a non starter. Most of humanity wants to just get on with life. Enjoy, build on and cherish it. Abrahamic religions are the classic “party poopers”. They gate crash life and sour it for the rest of us. If we refuse to go along their “pooping” then it backfires and poops on them, they in turn feel left out of life’s party so to speak.

It’s no fun being a T-Totaler at a piss up. They are the new kids on the block and want to show the rest of us they mean it. If they want dialogue, fine. But life is too short and I have better things to do than listen to faith. Faith is personal and mine is Ale.

[Salman]

see you play to nice . just beciase most muslims are not part of the terror activieties . most do support it and condone it

That is a big load of BS. I'm sure most muslims do not support the attacks done in Iraq.

[Adux]

That is a big load of BS. I'm sure most muslims do not support the attacks done in Iraq.

Salman are you saying Zionist-India-Ameriki/Crusader conspiracy against the Islamic world doesnt exist in the Muslim mind?

[Calanen]

No Muslim will reject the Jihad you mention, its part of Islam. To defend oneself against intolerance, oppression etc. Don't make it seem like Jihad is an form of terrorism.



That is NOT what jihad is about in islam, and it is dishonest to portray it as some right to self-defence. Jihad in both the Koran and the hadith, is about bringing all people of the world under islamic rule through violence, conversion by the sword. I could spam up the board with quotes from the hadith and the koran to this effect, but it has proven pointless to do so in the past.

Unless the Muslim world, rejects that as a philosophy, and re-defines it truthfully as some right of self-defence which no one denies, and accepts the right of the Western world to be left to be ruled under infidel law and practice infidel religion - there will always be conflict.

Jihad just as self defence is al taqiyaa at its finest.

[Salman]

Salman are you saying Zionist-India-Ameriki/Crusader conspiracy against the Islamic world doesnt exist in the Muslim mind?

erhmm...what? How did you manage to squeeze India into all of this? LEB101 said that most muslims support and condone terrorist attacks, which is simply BS. Are you trying to tell me that the 100+ million muslims in India ALL support and condone terrorism by default because they are muslim? Because that is what LEB101 is trying to say.

Don't read between the lines of my post, read the words, you will see that my post is simple to understand with no hidden agendas.

And finally as for the conspiracy thing (which is of no interest for me)....I dont belive in anytihng being made against Islam in itself, rather we are seeing nations/goverments in conflict for the same old reasons like power, money etc....religion is just being used as a tool in these conflicts as it always had been before.

You should not be so eager to find an enemy in every muslim because religion is not what determines a persons character, I think history have shown us at least that. :)

[Calanen]

LEB101 said that most muslims support and condone terrorist attacks, which is simply BS. Are you trying to tell me that the 100+ million muslims in India ALL support and condone terrorism by default because they are muslim? Because that is what LEB101 is trying to say.

Define..support? If you mean actively participate, then no. If you mean, actively finance..then no. If you mean, be glad that it happens against the US and its allies, then probably, the answer is yes. And, not speak out against it, or do much to inform on people involved in it.

Remember when the Palestinians danced with delight when they found out about 9/11? I bet they weren't the only ones.

http://www.youtube.com/v/KrM0dAFsZ8k