View Full Version : Serbia's Socialists ditch socialism- and betray Milosevic
This article of mine appears in The Morning Star (http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index2.php/ex/examples). Since it was written, the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) has, as predicted, announced that it would enter into a coalition with Boris Tadic's DS.
As a keen horse-racing fan I've enjoyed attending many big race meetings around the world. But by far my most politically instructive day at the races occurred in Belgrade back in the 1990s, when I was lucky enough to attend the Yugoslav Derby.
About midway through the afternoon my Serbian friend pointed out a figure in a private box at the top of the stands. It was a middle-aged man wearing an immaculate suit, surrounded by three beautiful women. The champagne was flowing and the man was puffing on an enormous cigar. "That's Zoran Djindjic". my friend informed me. "He's an opposition politician and probably the biggest critic of President Milosevic", he went on. Later that afternoon we saw Djindjic- and his female admirers - leave the racecourse in a luxurious car. Whenever I hear western politicians or journalists describe Slobodan Milosevic (pictured above) as a 'dictator' I always think of that day at the races and the first time I saw Zoran Djindjic. For an opposition leader and critic of the government in a 'dictatorship', Djindjic certainly didn't seem to be having too bad a time of things.
Of course, the description of Yugoslavia under Milosevic as a 'dictatorship' was pure hogwash. A vibrant multi-party democracy was in operation- but the only thing wrong with the system from the west's viewpoint was that the wrong party- i.e. Milosevic's Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) kept winning the elections. Unlike other Socialist parties in the region, who by this time had morphed into pro-globalist New Labour style parties, the Serbian Socialists didn't ditch socialism. Under Milosevic around 70% of the economy remained in social ownership. The government's policies put the interests of ordinary people- and not global capital- first. Faux-leftist critics of Milosevic in the west routinely point to the privatisation of Serb Telecom- and the role played by former British Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd in brokering the sale for the Nat West Bank as evidence that Milosevic's government wasn't really 'socialist' But they usually neglect to mention that only a minority stake in Serb Telecom was sold and the sale only came about as an emergency measure to raise money for state coffers to counter the impact of western sanctions- the most draconian sanctions ever imposed on a European state.
The fact was that the government in Belgrade refused to adopt the neoliberal policies the west- and its agencies such as the World Bank and the IMF insist upon. And for their refusal to 'liberalise' the Yugoslav economy, both Milosevic and his party, were to pay a heavy price. Having been toppled in a coup d'etat, organised, choreographed and financed (to the tune of $70m) by the US State Department, Milosevic then had to suffer the ignominy of being illegally kidnapped, and bundled into a RAF aeroplane to stand trial at The Hague-to answer politically motivated charges before a tribunal staffed and financed by the very powers who had waged an illegal and brutal war against his country only two years earlier. And the Serbian politician responsible for Milosevic being handed over to his country's enemies was- you've guessed it -Zoran Djindjic-who had become Prime Minister following the anti-socialist coup.
While Djindjic lived the life of Riley as an opposition leader in the years of Milosevic's 'dictatorship'; there was to be no days at the races for Milosevic, sipping champagne and smoking cigars, when the men's roles were reversed.
But the West- and their agents in Serbia- didn't just need to remove Milosevic from the political scene- they needed to neutralise the Socialist Party of Serbia.
In the aftermath of the 2000 coup, SPS offices were raided and destroyed and officers of the party were attacked and beaten. The party was marginalised and denied access to the state media, now in the hands of the opposition. Many members of the SPS left the party to join the Serbian Radical Party (SRS) which began to adopt more left-wing policies.
But after seven years of seeing its fortunes decline, the Socialist Party is once again a factor in Serbian politics. In May's general election, the party was left holding the balance of power. From being the pariahs of Serbian politics, the SPS is now the party that everyone wants to be friends with. And that includes the fanatically pro-EU 'Democratic' Party (DS)-the party of the late Zoran Djindjic. The DS's current leader, the Serbian President, Boris Tadic, having spent most of his career attacking the policies of the Milosevic era, is now sounding rather more conciliatory as he attempt to entice the SPS into a 'pro European coalition'."I'm convinced that the SPS is prepared for permanent reforms and finding a way out into the future," Tadic told a meeting of his party last week- urging them to "join hands with those you fought against during the Nineties".
Sadly, it seems increasingly likely that the SPS leader, Ivica Dacic will accept Tadic's offer. The pressure is coming not just from Tadic, but from western powers desperate to prevent the SPS from joining the SRS and the Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) in a 'patriotic' coalition that would defend Serbia's national interests. The Dutch daily Handelsblad, has quoted an unnamed Western diplomat in Belgrade as saying that the American and British ambassadors "are in the cockpit of forming the new Serbian government". While not denying that he has met with Dacic, the British Ambassador says he doesn't' feel as if he is "directing people" but "discussing the situation with them, explaining how would Europe see certain issues."
If Dacic does do what the US and Britain want -and take his party into a DP led- coalition, he will be ignoring the opinions of the vast majority of his party's supporters, who loathe the DP and its neoliberal allies.
Serbia's leading philosopher Mihajlo Markovic, who is also one of the founders of the SPS, has warned that Dacic joining a DS-led coalition would be a death blow to both the SPS and to Serbia. "Already this year there is a shortage of the money received from privatization in the state budget. How shall we fill the budget in the future, when the plunder and the wholesale of everything this society has created in the past five decades soon comes to its end?" Markovic said.
In an attempt to assuage concern among the party's supporters, SPS Vice-President Slavica Dukić-Dejanović has pledged that the party would never disown the legacy of Slobodan Milosevic. "We didn't do that even when we were at our lowest ebb, and when they wanted to pull us apart. He was the founder of the party and a historical personality, and we have to move towards reinforcing an ideological and reformist spirit". But it is difficult to see how entering a coalition with the party whose former leader was responsible for sending Milosevic to The Hague- and signing up to a pro-privatisation, neoliberal 'reformist' economic agenda can be seen as anything other than disowning the legacy of the former Yugoslav President.
It seems that the upper ranks of the SPS would like the party to go the way of all the other Socialist Parties in the region-in other words, to ditch socialism and do exactly what the west tells it to do.
Let's hope the party's members can yet save the day.
http://www.neilclark66.blogspot.com/
Any respect they had for upholding any principles is gone along with any pride. The yellow Europhiles have mixed with the red communists and hand in hand they are ready to sell and gut anything not nailed down that is left to sell and gut and falling over each other to obey outside masters and not the people.Any past glory is now gone in Srbija.
This from Nebojsa Malic:
And what of Serbia? Buried in private and government debt – the poisonous fruit of economic mismanagement by Democrats' allies G17 since 2000 – with its military, diplomacy and security services gutted at the hands of ministers always more at home in Brussels than in Belgrade, it is now in the hands of people who haven't the slightest intent to oppose the illegal separation of Kosovo. Nor is the new regime likely to oppose any further dismantling of Serbia, should the Empire wish it.
The Balkan
06-29-2008, 02:37 AM
God bless America.
And of course Zoran sold him out, Zoran is from Bosnia.
He might claim to me a Bosnian Serb, but he was really one of our (and America's) secret agents p-)
shatro
06-29-2008, 03:21 AM
God bless America.
And of course Zoran sold him out, Zoran is from Bosnia.
He might claim to me a Bosnian Serb, but he was really one of our (and America's) secret agents p-)
Zoran's mom is from Bosnia, father is from Toplica in southern Serbia.
Well no matter where he is from do you know the day he handed Sloba over to the Hague?
The Balkan
06-29-2008, 03:32 AM
Zoran's mom is from Bosnia, father is from Toplica in southern Serbia.
He was also born in Bosanksi Samac, Bosnia.
INAT I get the feeling you like Milosevic? Was he a better leader then these deadbeats these days?
Wasnt Zoran assasinated by criminals cuz he was tough on crime?
He was also born in Bosanksi Samac, Bosnia.
INAT I get the feeling you like Milosevic? Was he a better leader then these deadbeats these days?
Wasnt Zoran assasinated by criminals cuz he was tough on crime?
Like him? What am I in 3rd grade? If by like you mean I have a mind that can view, analyze and understand a situation beyond what I am told about it by his enemies then yes. I did not know him personally so I cannot answer the question do I like him.
Zoran was killed for more than one reason treason ranks high on that list.
He was loved in the West because he and his ilk said yes to interests that
went against those of Serbs.Nothing is cut and dry and no one is one thing and one thing only.
The Balkan
06-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Like him? What am I in 3rd grade? If by like you mean I have a mind that can view, analyze and understand a situation beyond what I am told about it by his enemies then yes. I did not know him personally so I cannot answer the question do I like him.
Zoran was killed for more than one reason treason ranks high on that list.
He was loved in the West because he and his ilk said yes to interests that
went against those of Serbs.Nothing is cut and dry and no one is one thing and one thing only.
By liked him I mean as a leader, as a politician, his policies, methods and overall his whole "rule" and what came of it.
By liked him I mean as a leader, as a politician, his policies, methods and overall his whole "rule" and what came of it.
I believe that every politician is a liar and most are criminals in varying degrees as government is simply a protection racket.Why would you think I like what came of his rule?What came of his rule was bigger than Milosevic it was bigger than Jugoslavia we were just one target on the list of many after us and before us. He was just the patsy the fall guy for a lot of people including people whom once cursed his name today are working with his party to form a government that will as usual screw the people
and work against their interests.What I do love is my country and people
culture and history and anything else related to Serbdom.If I were Chinese
I would love China if I were Italian I would love Italy in the same way.There is nothing special about fate it is what it is.
If by like you mean I have a mind that can view, analyze and understand a situation beyond what I am told about it by his enemies then yes.
How well do you remember living during Sloba's rule?
Zoran was killed for more than one reason treason ranks high on that list.
What, exactly, was the treasonous act for which he deserved to die? And who died and made Legija and Zvezdan Jovanovic judges, jury, and executioners?
He was loved in the West because he and his ilk said yes to interests that went against those of Serbs.
He had a tougher stance on Kosovo than Kostunica at the time. He had no misgivings about telling the pig-like Montgomerry not to interfere in Serbian affairs. He was, however, leaning on the West, since, at that time, the Putin factor still hadn't kicked in in Russia.
I'm not a particularly big fan of Djindjic, or any politician for that matter, and I do so detest the borderline personality cult attitude towards him in the media, but the fact that he set the groundwork for the economic recovery in Serbia remains. If nothing else, under his rule, the citizenry weren't getting the sh*t beaten out of them by riot police on a daily basis.
KninGrad
06-29-2008, 09:20 AM
God bless America.
And of course Zoran sold him out, Zoran is from Bosnia.
He might claim to me a Bosnian Serb, but he was really one of our (and America's) secret agents p-)
Read Zoran's last interview and tell me how he differs from Radicals/DSS ..... they dont !!!!
shatro
06-29-2008, 10:51 AM
Well no matter where he is from do you know the day he handed Sloba over to the Hague?
If there's justice in the world Slobodan Milosevic should have met his on one of Terazije's light posts. Hanging upside down.
Sumadinac
06-29-2008, 03:36 PM
This coalition is a proof that politicians in this country are corrupt.
delio
06-29-2008, 04:41 PM
Serbs Choose New Premier for Coalition (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/world/europe/28serbia.html?ref=world)
By DAN BILEFSKY
Published: June 28, 2008
PRAGUE — Serbia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/serbia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo)’s finance minister, Mirko Cvetkovic, was nominated on Friday to become prime minister of a new pro-European coalition government.
If confirmed by Parliament, Mr. Cvetkovic, 57, a low-key technocrat in the pro-Western Democratic Party of President Boris Tadic, would succeed Vojislav Kostunica (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/vojislav_kostunica/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the departing nationalist prime minister. Mr. Kostunica, who helped lead the revolution that overthrew Slobodan Milosevic (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/slobodan_milosevic/index.html?inline=nyt-per) in 2000, has railed against the West in recent months.
The formation of a government, perhaps as soon as next week, comes after weeks of intense jockeying and is the result of an unlikely alliance between Mr. Tadic’s pro-European party and Mr. Milosevic’s Socialist Party, which fought a war against the West in the 1990s.
By agreeing to form a coalition, Mr. Milosevic’s old party paradoxically would be helping to bring Serbia back into the European fold. Mr. Cvetkovic is expected to focus on Serbia’s drive to enter the European Union (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/e/european_union/index.html?inline=nyt-org) while trying to improve its economy. Serbia is among Europe’s poorest countries.
The Democrats won the most seats in a parliamentary election on May 11, but not enough to form a majority in the 250-seat Parliament. Mr. Kostunica’s nationalist party initially wooed the Socialists, but the talks broke off when it became clear that the Socialists wanted to link Serbia’s future to the European Union, while Mr. Kostunica was seeking to forge closer ties with Russia.
“I expect the new government to be stable, to work for the national interest and European integration,” said Ivica Dacic, the leader of the Socialist Party.
While Serbian liberals on the whole have embraced the prospect of a pro-European government, many also say they are uneasy with the decision by President Tadic to join forces with Mr. Milosevic’s old party. Some analysts say the coalition of former ideological rivals could prove unstable and short-lived.
The European Union has applauded the likely formation of the pro-Western coalition and has signaled that it could accelerate Serbia’s prospects for joining the bloc. Many Western leaders also hope that a pro-European government will be more likely to hand over indicted Serbian war criminals, while tempering its stance on Kosovo, which declared independence from Serbia in February.
The magnetic pull of the European Union is a dam powerful one.
How well do you remember living during Sloba's rule?
What, exactly, was the treasonous act for which he deserved to die? And who died and made Legija and Zvezdan Jovanovic judges, jury, and executioners?
He had a tougher stance on Kosovo than Kostunica at the time. He had no misgivings about telling the pig-like Montgomerry not to interfere in Serbian affairs. He was, however, leaning on the West, since, at that time, the Putin factor still hadn't kicked in in Russia.
I'm not a particularly big fan of Djindjic, or any politician for that matter, and I do so detest the borderline personality cult attitude towards him in the media, but the fact that he set the groundwork for the economic recovery in Serbia remains. If nothing else, under his rule, the citizenry weren't getting the sh*t beaten out of them by riot police on a daily basis.
Fair enough Paya I understand your point.Life in the last 18 years has been unbearably tough for the country and the people with one affliction after another.The act that I consider treason by Djindic (maybe it did not warrant death but was still treason) was handing Milosevic over to the enemy.Milosevic was cold calculating and devious yes but he was for the Serbs to deal with and not some politically motivated joke of a court.We went from living in relative prosperity with a decent standard of living to a
country and people that have in under two decades lost vast areas of territory been bombed twice and robbed of Kosovo-Metohija not to speak of the economic situation and the one million refugees that humanitarian groups steer clear of because they say they chose to leave or are just internally displaced persons whichever euphemism you like.What do you think could have prevented all of this ?Hindsight is 20/20 so please do tell because I am sure there is something.(no sarcasm intended)
Crna Strela
06-29-2008, 05:49 PM
Paya,
I'm not a particularly big fan of Djindjic, or any politician for that matter, and I do so detest the borderline personality cult attitude towards him in the media, but the fact that he set the groundwork for the economic recovery in Serbia remains. If nothing else, under his rule, the citizenry weren't getting the sh*t beaten out of them by riot police on a daily basis.
Please dont use the economic recovery as a reason for liking djindjic .. any government could've privatised national firms for more profit than the DS government. All we have now is a debt we cant sustain, unless we keep privatising (which wont last much longer) then CRASH. The economy is unfortunately on thin ice and foreigners now dictate what Serbia will do from foreign policy to macro economic levels. We produce nothing anymore (except Maline), trade balance is catastrophic ! Zoran started it all as a short term fix but its not going to work.
@Inat
Fair enough Paya I understand your point.Life in the last 18 years has been unbearably tough for the country and the people with one affliction after another.
And Sloba was directly responsible for many of those afflictions.
The act that I consider treason by Djindic (maybe it did not warrant death but was still treason) was handing Milosevic over to the enemy.Milosevic was cold calculating and devious yes but he was for the Serbs to deal with and not some politically motivated joke of a court.
Not treason, rather a breach of the Constitution. But yes, I agree Sloba should have been the responsibility of the Serbian courts. Or the Serbian protesters on the fifth of October...
What do you think could have prevented all of this ?Hindsight is 20/20 so please do tell because I am sure there is something.(no sarcasm intended)
I don't know, but showing the middle finger to the Americans at every opportunity surely wasn't the best policy. Depending on Russia to help us, at a time when Russia couldn't help itself, wasn't either. The economic hardships would have been a lot less harsh if there wasn't for Jezda and Dafina, who were directly stealing the money from Serbian citizens and storing it on Sloba's off-shore accounts. Making deals with Tudjman, victims of which were the Krajina Serbs, was also one of many proud deeds of Sloba.
Who knows, with someone other than Cobe in power, all or some of those afflictions, as you say, could have been avoided...
@Crna Strela
Please dont use the economic recovery as a reason for liking djindjic .. any government could've privatised national firms for more profit than the DS government. All we have now is a debt we cant sustain, unless we keep privatising (which wont last much longer) then CRASH. The economy is unfortunately on thin ice and foreigners now dictate what Serbia will do from foreign policy to macro economic levels. We produce nothing anymore (except Maline), trade balance is catastrophic ! Zoran started it all as a short term fix but its not going to work.
Look, I'm no economist. All I know is that I live much better than 8 years ago. I remember what my city looked like, and functioned then, and now.
And I do not like Djindjic (I'm certainly not one of those insane LDP supporters who worship him as a god), but I'll take him over Sloba any day.
@Inat
And Sloba was directly responsible for many of those afflictions.
Not treason, rather a breach of the Constitution. But yes, I agree Sloba should have been the responsibility of the Serbian courts. Or the Serbian protesters on the fifth of October...
I don't know, but showing the middle finger to the Americans at every opportunity surely wasn't the best policy. Depending on Russia to help us, at a time when Russia couldn't help itself, wasn't either. The economic hardships would have been a lot less harsh if there wasn't for Jezda and Dafina, who were directly stealing the money from Serbian citizens and storing it on Sloba's off-shore accounts. Making deals with Tudjman, victims of which were the Krajina Serbs, was also one of many proud deeds of Sloba.
Who knows, with someone other than Cobe in power, all or some of those afflictions, as you say, could have been avoided...
@Crna Strela
Look, I'm no economist. All I know is that I live much better than 8 years ago. I remember what my city looked like, and functioned then, and now.
And I do not like Djindjic (I'm certainly not one of those insane LDP supporters who worship him as a god), but I'll take him over Sloba any day.
I don't see it as showing the middle finger to Americans at every opportunity.See that is one thing I will never understand about people why do you see it as us taking all the blame for problems.Yes things were handled poorly and yes there was corruption and crime by the state that really makes you stand in awe but don't you see that Washington's policy has not changed for almost two decades when it comes to Srbija? We went from intransigence and doing what any sovereign country would do to asking how high when they said jump all in the hope that if only this time we do what they say they will finally realize they were wrong or they were misguided.See I don't buy that,they knew and know what they are doing they are not fools.This is in part to punish
and in part to control and expand.As I said before this is an idea bigger than just Srbija.We now have a stable US presence and one of the largest
from scratch military bases since Vietnam on our territory.You think that was just because we gave the finger?
Your life is better but it is relative.I guess the person who is being beaten is doing much better when the beating stops right?
I don't see it as showing the middle finger to Americans at every opportunity.See that is one thing I will never understand about people why do you see it as us taking all the blame for problems.
I certainly don't blame us. I blame Milosevic who was elected in order to, among other things, provide security to our people. He did everything but.
And I have a custom of saying to those that blame the NATO agression solely on Milosevic that, while Sloba did mess with the wrong crowd, he did not personally sit in a jet and bomb military and civilians alike. So, I primarily blame the NATO countries for the bombing, in case you were wondering.
Yes things were handled poorly and yes there was corruption and crime by the state that really makes you stand in awe but don't you see that Washington's policy has not changed for almost two decades when it comes to Srbija? We went from intransigence and doing what any sovereign country would do to asking how high when they said jump all in the hope that if only this time we do what they say they will finally realize they were wrong or they were misguided.See I don't buy that,they knew and know what they are doing they are not fools.This is in part to punish
and in part to control and expand.As I said before this is an idea bigger than just Srbija.We now have a stable US presence and one of the largest
from scratch military bases since Vietnam on our territory.
All too true.
You think that was just because we gave the finger?
No, but it gave them the excuse they sorely needed.
Your life is better but it is relative.I guess the person who is being beaten is doing much better when the beating stops right?
Especially when in the past you were beaten by your own president's police AND bombed by NATO.
V.I.D.
06-29-2008, 07:46 PM
I tend to agree with Paya's reasoning, it is probably closest to how I feel about many of those issues. I also understand Inat's point on "things being bigger than Serbia", it is definitely true. However, I still blame Milosevic for allowing all those things to take place (that he could have controlled), such as: letting his son becoming a gangster No. 1 in the country, experimenting with Krajina Serbs and those in RS, and directly or indirectly starting so much bull**** without going all the way (see under Krajina and RS). Kosovo scenario was at least partially beyond his control because no sovereign country would ever sign the Ramboulliet Agreement (or better Ultimatum).
I certainly don't blame us. I blame Milosevic who was elected in order to, among other things, provide security to our people. He did everything but.
And I have a custom of saying to those that blame the NATO agression solely on Milosevic that, while Sloba did mess with the wrong crowd, he did not personally sit in a jet and bomb military and civilians alike. So, I primarily blame the NATO countries for the bombing, in case you were wondering.
All too true.
No, but it gave them the excuse they sorely needed.
Especially when in the past you were beaten by your own president's police AND bombed by NATO.
p-)
Yeah really the average person got it from both sides.(I don't mean to make light of NATO bombing with that smile).
Oh yeah VID I agree with Paya also 100%. I am simply presenting one part while he another.We both can be correct in this
respect.
Why are you guys surprised the socialists finally teamed up with Tadic? They are both communists by ancestry. This actually shows how hypocritical the two parties really are and how desperate they are for power even if it means betraying their fundamental values...wait I forgot neither of them have any.
Lets face it they are no longer political parties in the traditional sense they are just EU whores who think that membership solves all of our problems... I bet they are also convinced the EU has the ultimate answer to the meaning of life, they sure act like it.
Lets not bring in dead presidents in this please, political assassination is just barbaric and cowardly and only serves to create martyrs of them. If we were to pick which Serbian politician/'s should or should have been killed *cough* Ceda *cough* Djindjic wouldn't have been the top of the list. He wouldn't have been on the list at all, at least not on mine. He at least had some sort of backbone unlike his successor Tadic.
What ever happens its obvious now that the socialists can't be trusted as coalition partners. I will be watching from the opposition now, its a new feeling for me but hell I really want to see what those commies accomplish. This should be fun to watch.
Crna Strela
06-29-2008, 07:55 PM
My last post here at MP ... I cant stand the censorship, too many sheep.
@Crna Strela
Look, I'm no economist. All I know is that I live much better than 8 years ago. I remember what my city looked like, and functioned then, and now.
And I do not like Djindjic (I'm certainly not one of those insane LDP supporters who worship him as a god), but I'll take him over Sloba any day.
Great Paya, I would never take a cocain snorter over a whiskey drinker, ever. Lesser of two evils I guess.
...............
Your life is better but it is relative.I guess the person who is being beaten is doing much better when the beating stops right?
Your life is better, many tens of thousands in the villages are worse off. Glad to hear you are doing well now. All the best in the future.
Signing out C.S
My last post here at MP ... I cant stand the censorship, too many sheep.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
My last post here at MP ... I cant stand the censorship, too many sheep.
Great Paya, I would never take a cocain snorter over a whiskey drinker, ever. Lesser of two evils I guess.
Your life is better, many tens of thousands in the villages are worse off. Glad to hear you are doing well now. All the best in the future.
Signing out C.S
I think you missed it.I was not saying my life is better or worse I was responding to Paya's statement.Don't get me wrong of course things are much much worse than they were in Jugoslavia or even before the NATO bombing but like I said it is all relative.I could not think like that "ah so long as my life is better who cars about the rest of the poor bastards" no no no.A divided Srbija has no chance.Between the Beograd talk show of the yellows that calls Serbs that want to keep Kosmet and are not sure of the EU toothless fools and the Crna Gora government considering recognizing Kosovo-metohija as separate from Srbija what do we have to be proud of?
V.I.D.
06-30-2008, 03:59 AM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Was that really necessary, or do you think there is no censorship on this site?
I understand it's mentioned in the rules to "behave properly" (in accordance with mainstream US politics), but there is nothing wrong with voicing one's opinion publicly.
Sumadinac
06-30-2008, 09:32 AM
Crna Strela said the truth. Serbia will not be able to face what will happen with the end of the privatisations. I hope you know what said the economist Branko Dragas...
Was that really necessary, or do you think there is no censorship on this site?
I understand it's mentioned in the rules to "behave properly" (in accordance with mainstream US politics), but there is nothing wrong with voicing one's opinion publicly.
Unnecessary? Yes.
However, the guy was a 'truther', evidenced by his posts in another thread, so I don't feel particularly bad about my comments or his leaving.
Weedlover99
06-30-2008, 11:25 AM
At least the DS had a plan to improve wages of poorer citizens, Tadic and the DSS just want new foreign investments and EU grants so the rich get richer. With this new coalition the surface of Serbia will look good and new but the lower income families will suffer.
loganinkosovo
06-30-2008, 11:01 PM
So....basically the opposition leader was just as big a crook and a thug as Milosevic.....
Where's the big revelation?
It's Serbia for Christ's sake!
You can't even register your car without having to bribe someone....
This is just Business as usual in the Balkans.
The Biggest Crook and Thug is the Leader!
:)
LogininKosovo
I normally wouldn't like to agree but I am inclined to do so fully this time around. This latest and new government is the sorriest POS ever to come out of Serbia. Milo was a out right crook, but these guys... I just don't know what to describe them as.
Killerkai1
10-08-2008, 08:17 AM
I think they is alot of nonsense being spoken here about Milosevic. Milosevic had 'control' over events did he? He 'mismanaged' the economy did he? For crying out loud the international community imposed sanctions on the Serbian economy contributing to massive inflation and shortages of goods and services (and yes, when that happens you have gangsterism and blackmarkets). Serbian leaders of today who boast a hard stance on Kosovo ignore the fact that Milosevic was completely consistent on this question, Kosovo was an internal affair of the Serbs he told the whole world throughout the 90's and kept on saying it throughout the 1998/99 crisis. To say other Serbian leaders would have done better on the Krajina and Bosnian Serb issues and the general breakup of the country is dubious. They never had to confront those problems in the first place, Milosevic did. He gave as much material/monetary suppport as he could to those groups until it was clear (in 1995) that he could not supply indefinte help for those groups as the balance of power had shifted against Serbia generally. To think that another Serbian government would have acted differently and sent in the VJ forces to halt Operation Storm is delusional nonsense. The Dayton accords was a reasonable give and take agreement (Milosevic gave up Sarajevo and the Bosnia Muslims Zepa and Srebrencia) and the VRS acquired six per cent more land under that accord then under Vance-Owen. If the Croatian and Bosnian Serbs had sewed for peace strongly from the end of 1994 and early 1995 Milosevic could have cut a better deal for them. Slobodan inherited problems of a national, historic and strategic nature that would have been beyond the wit of many governments to resolve.
I think they is alot of nonsense being spoken here about Milosevic. Milosevic had 'control' over events did he? He 'mismanaged' the economy did he? For crying out loud the international community imposed sanctions on the Serbian economy contributing to massive inflation and shortages of goods and services (and yes, when that happens you have gangsterism and blackmarkets).
True enough. However, when the Government partakes in, and directly sponsors the gangsterism and the black market, and Government-owned banks develop pyramid schemes that steal from the citizenry, then you realize the man on the TV claiming to be your president is actually the head of the mob that's racketeering you. And then you head to the streets meaning to express your displeasure, and - surprise, surprise - the president's enforcers, personified by the riot-police in this case, beat you to a bloody pulp.
That kinda ****s up your belief in the Government, you know?
Serbian leaders of today who boast a hard stance on Kosovo ignore the fact that Milosevic was completely consistent on this question, Kosovo was an internal affair of the Serbs he told the whole world throughout the 90's and kept on saying it throughout the 1998/99 crisis.
He kept saying it, and kept telling the Americans to butt-out. The man had some balls, right? Well, not exactly. You see, it was our balls on the line the whole time, not his. He spent the whole NATO agression living in one of Tito's bunkers, where he and his family were as safe and as happy as clams.
I'm not saying he should have just agreed to the American demands, but talking to the Yanks would have been a sound idea at that point. As opposed to telling them to **** off at every given opportunity.
To say other Serbian leaders would have done better on the Krajina and Bosnian Serb issues and the general breakup of the country is dubious. They never had to confront those problems in the first place, Milosevic did. He gave as much material/monetary suppport as he could to those groups until it was clear (in 1995) that he could not supply indefinte help for those groups as the balance of power had shifted against Serbia generally. To think that another Serbian government would have acted differently and sent in the VJ forces to halt Operation Storm is delusional nonsense. The Dayton accords was a reasonable give and take agreement (Milosevic gave up Sarajevo and the Bosnia Muslims Zepa and Srebrencia) and the VRS acquired six per cent more land under that accord then under Vance-Owen. If the Croatian and Bosnian Serbs had sewed for peace strongly from the end of 1994 and early 1995 Milosevic could have cut a better deal for them.
The man cut off all aid to the Bosnian and Krajina Serbs in '94, including humanitarian aid. It was the Russians who had to supply medical aid to the hospitals in Bosnian Serb-controlled territory, because their own mother-country would not. In '93, Milosevic promised that the VJ would intervene in case of any Croat offensive in Krajina. Maslenica and Medak pocket happened that same year, and he did absolutely nothing. Not even a dipolomatic protest, a demarch, a call for the session of the Security Council-nothing. Hell, during Operation Oluja, the state television was broadcasting reports about the blooming tourism on the Montenegrin riviera. You can imagine my surprise when I found out that the Mostarska Petlja (the western aproach to Belgrade) was cloged by refugees.
Slobodan inherited problems of a national, historic and strategic nature that would have been beyond the wit of many governments to resolve.
Slobodan inherited an economically stable and relatively prosperous Serbia, and made it into a mafia-run police state. I'm aware of the contradiction in terms, but it's the only way I can think of to describe Milosevic's Serbia.
Killerkai1
10-09-2008, 06:11 AM
Paya, raises some interesting points here. I’m not here to dispute your personal experiences and to prove I’m cleverer then you. You were beaten by the Police in Serbia and it might comfort you to know the Police in Britain dealt with the striking national miners in 1984-85 and protestors in a similar fashion, that's the nature of States, whether democratic or authoritarian. In some countries you don't survive going to a protest (!) I would like to divide my approach into two parts and deal with two main points first and then in another post with a couple more objections you raise about Milosevic;
1. You say that Milosevic 'cut off all aid to the Bosnian and Krajina Serbs in '94'. This is exaggerated, he never, as David Owen explained ever cut off the Bosnian Serbs off totally. (Page 28388 and 28389,
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031103IT.htmAs for the Krajina Serbs I’m unsure whether they aid was ever cut. Secondly, the Yugoslav government did condemn the Croatian government’s offensives in Medak and related areas; moreover the UN Security Council said ‘“we express the deepest concern for the renewed military confrontations in Croatia. We ask both sides to immediately agree to the UNPROFOR proposal for an immediate ceasefire to be reached. The Council also requires that the Croatian Government withdraw its military forces to their September 9th positions, before the undertaken offensive.”
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/11.htm (see Yugoslav crisis chronology at end of piece)
2. You say Milosevic should have talked to the Americans and at the same time not give in to their demands. OK, I will not go into depth on this issue but the US were saying you remove Serbian forces from a part of your own country, (a non Negotiable demand) and the implications of that that are totally clear for even an A level student of politics. Indeed, the concessions Milosevic wrought from the war gave a future Serb government wriggle room to pursue a diplomatic settlement possibly based on partition, an opportunity that has since been wasted. As for his personal bravery, General Pavokic said when he was with Milosevic in Belgrade and the bombing was very intense he never saw him ruffled in the slightest.
Killerkai1
10-09-2008, 12:26 PM
Part Two. Two other points;
1. Paya says that 'Slobodan inherited an economically stable and relatively prosperous Serbia'. It may have been relatively prosperous compared to other Eastern European states but the mounting economic problems of Yugoslavia throughout the 1980's predated Milosevic of rising external debt and the later impacts of Markovic's reforms that lead to the collapse of industrial production, rising unemployment and falling companies.
Line 29359 http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/documents/trial/2003-11-20.html
2. The issue of gangsterism and the black market. Following Milosevic's arrest, stories appeared in the international press regarding 'Milosevic missing millions'. The story disappeared as quickly as it appeared. No investigation by Serbian or ICTY officals has revealed any evidence of missing millions or anything resembling that. The reason I conjecture is that it does not exist. Please read Sam Vaknin piece on this;
http://www.ce-review.org/01/17/vaknin17.html
Thanks Killerkai
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