World War Three/Cold War Gone 'Hot' books!

[Britboy]

Awwright all,

Have just rooted out my copy of Red Storm Rising, havn't read it for ages! Okay, we all know Tom Clancy may not be 100% accurate or might write about stuff that is far fetched, but RSR is still something of a 'ripping yarn'. To be honest, any book that features NATO and the USSR having a crack over Central Europe is worth a read in my mind.

So this got me to thinking, what other fiction is out there about WWIII? I remember hearing something of a book by a Hackett, a British General, who was writing after retiring sometime in the 80s I think. Is it worth buying?

Anyone else read any WWIII books and have any recommendations? It doesn't have to be NATO vs USSR in W Germany in the 80s, if anyone has written about other conflicts that could have come out of the Cold War. It seems to be an area of mil fiction that you don't really see much of - the bookshelves at Waterstones seem to be full of Andy McNab or Chris Ryan's latest, but to be honest I'm not that interested in reading that sort of thing. Would rather have something featuring recent history that seems authentic and could have actually happened.

Regards
BB

[oscarni]

Hey,

To be honest, there are few "true" WWW3 books that I have found over the years, Red Storm Rising seems to be the only one I have found that fully or faithfully covers a Soviet Push into western Europe.

That being said, if you want some thing with US / Russian's, Dale Browns got a good few books that lead up to an "American Holocaust" aka an all out Soviet attack on the CONUS. Its a sodding good read, but it will take you to read 3 or 4 of his early books to get to that book, "Plan of Attack". His early books even cover things like a Chinese Invasion of Tawian etc. Its a good read.

There are a number of books called WW3, honestly they aren't worth the time to read in my opinion, they havea good plot and they do have their moments... but I don't think the Author really carries it through.

As for RSR, you can't ever forget the Wingtipper, the gingerbread house and the Knife. Amazing Read, also you should look into "Without Remorse" by Tom Clancy.

[James]

Hey,

To be honest, there are few "true" WW3 books that I have found over the years, Red Storm Rising seems to be the only one I have found that fully or faithfully covers a Soviet Push into western Europe.

Red Army by Ralph Peters sets the standard for fiction about a Warsaw Pact assault on Germany. It is written entirely from the Soviet perspective.

Team Yankee and Bright Star by Harold Coyle are two stories - one about the U.S. Army fighting the Soviets in Germany, the other about a war between the two nations that takes place in Iran.

Another tale that is based in reality is The Black Tulip by Milt Bearden. It is about CIA and mujaheddin adventures in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

[gaijinsamurai]

I was about to recommend Red Army, but James beat me to it!

[Bro Jangles]

there was pretty good book by micheal farmer called iron tigers, about a joint russuian/saudi invasion of post us involvement in iraq.

[Britboy]

Oh is Team Yankee the story about a US Armour combat team/company group of MBTs?

Have heard of that too, might have to look it up as well as Hackett's.

Wingtipper? Gingerbread? Knife?

I remember skimming through a mates book, interested me as the cover had a picture of an Invincible class CVS enflamed on the front, and it was a modern-day Falklands recurring. Author was Patrick something, also wrote the Shark Mutiny. I didn't think either of them that good, although I never really got stuck into them.

Oscar, do you reckon you could just plunge into 'Plan of Attack', or is it the sort of series where you have to have followed it from the first book?

Regards
BB

[Bro Jangles]

Oscar, do you reckon you could just plunge into 'Plan of Attack', or is it the sort of series where you have to have followed it from the first book?

Regards
BB
for Plan of attack

having read the entire series religously, read flight of the old dog, day of the cheetah, shadows of steel, fatal terrain,battle born, air battle force, then your caught up on the story for plan of attack, but it is a great series that i highly recommend,

PS i left out like 10 books, they are all great

[seraosha]

This may be a little off topic, but GDW had a game out called "Twillight 2000" that dealt with a post WWIII world. Not quite a post apocalyptic game setting, but more of shattered armies, breaking down command chains, and Europe in the throes of surviving a limited nuclear exchange and the climate changes...all the while former Soviet and US forces roaming the countryside trying to survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight:_2000

[Buckeye67]

I was about to recommend both Red Army and Team Yankee - particularly Team Yankee.

I played Twilight 2000 with some of the crew when I was at DLI. Fun game and a neat concept, I wonder if there's anyone out there that still plays it.

While not full-blown WW3 books, J.C. Pollock has several books from the Cold War era that are quite good - Crossfire and Centrifuge in particular. They involve SF types involved in "hot" situations.

[Britboy]

Just looked up Team Yankee on Wiki, it says that yes it was the story of a US combat team... in the wider context of Hackett's 'The Third World War', which sounds intriguing... Will have to look them both up, Hacketts for the big-scale and Yankee for the individual-bloke-on-the-ground's eye view...

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I've heard The Third World War by Sir John Hackett is good, although I've also heard its more of an analysis of a possible WW3 scenario than a personable novel.

[bengalraider]

three books on a possible nuclear confrontation involving china
dragon strike- USA vs china with the rest of the Asian powers involved.
dragon fire- India vs china and Pakistan.
the third world war- global conflict
:cantbeli:

[oscarni]

Hey,

Patrick Robinson, He is an amazing writer but I must at admit that I was deeply disappointed by his modern day version of a "Falklands" Conflict novel, his other novels are well put together and well researched, usual suspects, Iranians, Russians and Chinese, amazing reads.

Brit, I think you could jump into the book easily enough, there is a prelude chapter to get you some information on what has happened recently, but I would suggest getting the book before, that will get you into the book with all the information your require to understand the book completely.

I have just bought "Red Army from Amazon, thanks for that suggestion, i don't know how i missed it...

Ah, Britboy, the Wingtipper Weather man, the girl in the gingerbread house and the the wingtipper knifing some russians, do you remember it from RSR now? Its my favourite part to behonest.

[noneck11]

Coincidently I just picked up two used books on this very topic:

First Clash-Combat Close-Up in World War Three by Kenneth Macksey

It's basically about the the first 48 hrs after the balloon goes up. It centers around 4 CMBG trying to hold off the Russians around Blickheim in Germany. It's very accurate from the section level up to the Bn level in all arms. I believe that it was turned into some type of CF training aid after it was released in 1984, it's also quite hard to find.

The Last Ship by William Brinkley

Concerns the crew of Guided Missile Destroyer, who appear to be the only survivors after WW3. I haven't finished it yet, but I've been working straight at it for the last 24 hours..if that's any benchmark of how good it is.

[GrinchWSLG]

Megaraptor;3354508']I've heard The Third World War by Sir John Hackett is good, although I've also heard its more of an analysis of a possible WW3 scenario than a personable novel.

Didn't he write two different versions? I read the second one I think way back in high school. It was supposed to be focused more on the battle rather then the politics. While I don't remember most of the specifics of the book, I do recall it was a great read.

[Britboy]

Ah, Oscar, I do remember there was a Vidgis and definitely some part-retribution and part-psychiatrical knifing! You're right, a good part. When you said Wingtipper, I thought you meant that 'first ever stealth aircraft raid' bit...

Well thanks everyone, theres a load of suggestions here, I need to set myself up an Amazon account I think.

I was also interested to see a trailer for World In Conflict on Youtube, looks like a PC game of the same scenario, NATO vs USSR in Europe and CONUS. I bet theres quite a few games and films based on the idea, like a modern day war of the worlds!

[Hellfish]

I didn't care for the Hackett book at all.
Check out:

Arc Light by Eric L. Harry - best war novel I ever read. US-Russian nuclear exchange and war in the post-Soviet era.

The War That Never Was by Micheal Palmer. Better than Red Storm Rising in my opinion. Covers everything that Clancy ignored - very little of the book talks about Central Europe or the GIUK naval actions and instead looks at Norway/Scandanavia, Greece/Turkey, Middle East, the Pacific, Indian Ocean, etc. Excellent look at the parts of WWIII that most people don't think about.

Red Army and Team Yankee are also great, of course. Team Yankee came out in graphic novel format too, and is worth picking up. I've got a copy of it around here somewhere. I remember as a kid there were a bunch of WWIII novels that came out as graphic novels or were heavily illustrated. I remember one was about an Apache unit from North Carolina sent to Germany as reinforcements, another one involved a Soviet amphibious attack on Norway. Good stuff.. wish I could remember the titles. I'm pretty sure I read this one, but don't remember if it is worth hunting around for. http://www.amazon.com/Armor-Fulda-Gap-Visual-Tomorrow/dp/0380758431

First Clash: Combat Close-Up in World War Three by Macksey is supposed to be really good too. It's about the Canadian Army in Germany during a hypothetical war. Haven't read it myself.

[lightfire]

There was this book I came across:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416VEK6DY5L._SS500_.jpg

[Silent Reader]

not a book, but a documentary made in Germany - watched it some years ago.

it's called Der Dritte Weltkrieg and can be found on youtube - at least the German version.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0180657/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDgNgUgAH8 (Part 1/9)

The US title seems to be "WW III: World War III" or just "World War Three" maybe it has been shown on Discovery or the History Channel over there.

[Molli]

Silent Reader, I think I may have seen that many years ago on the History Channel. I remember the conflict remaining conventional until the very end of the programme - it all went wank when the Blackjacks scrambled. I remember the programme ending with ICBMs in flight and it slowly fading out.

Another piece of television now - Threads. It's from the 1980s, made by the BBC. I first saw it when (for the first time in years) it was repeated on UKTV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKTV). ... And, fantastically someone has uploaded it to Google Video! It follows the build-up, exchange and effects (including after-effects years after) of a nuclear war, all through the eyes of a regular (Northern) English family and the civil servants of their city. 'One bullet, that man!' Read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads), see it here (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2023790698427111488&hl=en-GB).

[big_les]

Strictly "home front", but I was recently recommended this by a special effects guy;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Game-Peter-Watkins/dp/B00007LZ57
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/438638/index.html

^clips in the second link

Have yet to see it.

ETA - found the whole movie in the Internet Archive;

http://www.archive.org/details/AV_179-THE_WAR_GAME-_THE_REALITY_OF_NUCLEAR_WAR

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Didn't he write two different versions? I read the second one I think way back in high school. It was supposed to be focused more on the battle rather then the politics. While I don't remember most of the specifics of the book, I do recall it was a great read.

IIRC he wrote a second version that was updated to reflect new political realities like the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and Egypt's swing towards the American bloc.

[Britboy]

Ah, I was going to mention Threads, The War Game, The Day After - the actual military events are in the background however, the main story is nuclear apocalypse...

The War That Never Was sounds good Hellfish. Even though you are right that Clancy does acknowledge Central Europe in RSR, I find it too little. He seems to love to focus on the Navy, and after that the Air Force, and after that, the shady goings on of Spetsnaz and spies - conventional land warfare definitely comes last for him. The Iceland touch was nice, and it prompted me to look up the Iceland Defence Force and USARICE, but RSR did follow this small band around the Icelandic countryside for ages, whilst not really delving into the Central Europe struggle more than a few tank battles and some Sov commanders trying to force their way through NATO lines to get their OMG rolling... I would've loved more land warfare and less AF/Navy stuff in that book...

Regards
BB

[Laworkerbee]

Red Army by Ralph Peters sets the standard for fiction about a Warsaw Pact assault on Germany. It is written entirely from the Soviet perspective.

Team Yankee and Bright Star by Harold Coyle are two stories - one about the U.S. Army fighting the Soviets in Germany, the other about a war between the two nations that takes place in Iran.

Another tale that is based in reality is The Black Tulip by Milt Bearden. It is about CIA and mujaheddin adventures in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

^ Those are both excellent books.

Nice recommendations Hellfish6 I'll be heading over to Amazon now.

[SoSo]

seraosha This may be a little off topic, but GDW had a game out called "Twillight 2000" that dealt with a post WWIII world. Not quite a post apocalyptic game setting, but more of shattered armies, breaking down command chains, and Europe in the throes of surviving a limited nuclear exchange and the climate changes...all the while former Soviet and US forces roaming the countryside trying to survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight:_2000

I played that game years ago, when I was in college. I thought it was pretty interesting, and a nice change from the usual D&D. We weren't in Eastern Europe, though, and we never saw any Soviets. Instead, we were in devastated Oklahoma and Texas, battling troops loyal to an illegitimate rival US government, which claimed to be the true inheritor of American sovereignty, and also some Texan secessionists. The game made you remember the first Civil War, and the things some of us had once done to fellow Americans, and might someday do again.

[ray2ray]

i second that regarding war that never was & arc light

1) war tht never was - rather dry exposition, not written in flowing prose like clancy but get point across; fascinating global ww3 what-if & consequence of soviet/nato actions

2) arc light - felt story was pretty hokey, but my fav part was the detailed description of nuclear weapons launch sequence & effect. absolutely riveting stuff.

tlg

[Hellfish]

Yeah, my favorite part of Arc Light was the description of the nuclear exchange and it's effect on America. It was surprisingly emotional.

The Marines in the Pacific had some great scenes too. Bad **** happens in the woods.

[Laworkerbee]

Yeah, my favorite part of Arc Light was the description of the nuclear exchange and it's effect on America. It was surprisingly emotional.

The Marines in the Pacific had some great scenes too. Bad **** happens in the woods.

I just ordered it so stop discussing it.

[Mike Kilo]

seraosha This may be a little off topic, but GDW had a game out called "Twillight 2000" that dealt with a post WWIII world. Not quite a post apocalyptic game setting, but more of shattered armies, breaking down command chains, and Europe in the throes of surviving a limited nuclear exchange and the climate changes...all the while former Soviet and US forces roaming the countryside trying to survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight:_2000

I played that game years ago, when I was in college. I thought it was pretty interesting, and a nice change from the usual D&D. We weren't in Eastern Europe, though, and we never saw any Soviets. Instead, we were in devastated Oklahoma and Texas, battling troops loyal to an illegitimate rival US government, which claimed to be the true inheritor of American sovereignty, and also some Texan secessionists. The game made you remember the first Civil War, and the things some of us had once done to fellow Americans, and might someday do again.

Yeah..."New America" :) IIRC the USA were invaded by Mexico then...
We played T:2000 20 years ago...of course no one of us had any "real" military experience at that tim. We played the whole campaign...from Poland to the States...Oh my, where is the time...
There was another nice RPG, it was called "Recon"...It was about the war in Vietnam...and the characters were part of, title says it, a Recon team ( LRRPs, SEALs etc )...

[loganinkosovo]

The confrontation in central Europe

A Passing Advantage by Mark McGarrity

Out of print but available from Amazon in used condition


the aftermath of a WWIII NBC exchange

Not serious reading but very entertaining

The Ashes Series by William W. Johnston

(Out of the Ashes, etc.)

[orionhawk]

how about "On the Beach", by Nevil Shute?
or "Failsafe" (I don't remember who wrote that one)


or, for a movie, "By Dawn's Early Light"

[Yosy]

"Failsafe" is amazing, mainly due to the actors - George Clooney, Harvey Keitel and others. It follows a (fictional) crisis when a computer in the mid-50s sends a wrong code to the strategic bombers to attack the USSR. We follow the generals in the control room, the bomber pilots, the president of the US and others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail_Safe_%28television%29

"Threads" is downright scary - WAAAAYYYYY more scary and realistic than "The Day After". BUT is also more apocalyptical than what in reality would have happened (no-one would carpet bomb a country with nukes). Check it out on Goolge Video.

As for books - by far the best is "Third World War" by General Sir John Hackett. Forget about big battle scenes - there are few. But the description of the escalation and the actual conduct of the war is very, very good indeed. For a book finished in 1979 about something that takes place in 85 he makes some very good predictions: the UK with a female prime-minister and the US with a Republican president; a Persian Gulf country that underwent a revolution (in the book is Saudi Arabia) and others. The best book you can get it's this one - puts Red Storm Rising in a corner.

[Hellfish]

As for books - by far the best is "Third World War" by General Sir John Hackett. Forget about big battle scenes - there are few. But the description of the escalation and the actual conduct of the war is very, very good indeed. For a book finished in 1979 about something that takes place in 85 he makes some very good predictions: the UK with a female prime-minister and the US with a Republican president; a Persian Gulf country that underwent a revolution (in the book is Saudi Arabia) and others. The best book you can get it's this one - puts Red Storm Rising in a corner.

Disagree. I still think that was a horrible book. Granted, I read it when I was 14.

[Laworkerbee]

Disagree. I still think that was a horrible book. Granted, I read it when I was 14.

Same here, I read it in high school and thought it was crap except for the parts about the conflict spreading into Africa, that was pretty good.

[Yosy]

^^^^ I read it for the first time when I was in high school too, and I only enjoyed the first chapter (the battles from the first day of the war). I re-read it later and found it more enjoyable. I re-read it again a few months back and loved it. Give it a go - it is a book only meant for a mature audience.

[rikko6Rcc]

Décembre 1997, les Russes arrivent... ISBN-10: 2226031960
December 1997, russians are coming...

Written in 1987 by French general Emmanuel de Richoufftz. He was then LTC within Joint Staff and later served as 2nd REI CO (Foreign Legion). It's a politic-fiction book about the incapacity of the French government to work out a solution to the WWIII

I don't think it has been translated in english.

For more info about the author : http://general.de.richoufftz.over-blog.com/

Red Army and Team Yankee were the first books I read in english 12 years ago... I found nothing equivalent since then !

[Hutz]

Ian Slater (http://www.amazon.com/WW-III-World-Flames/dp/0449145646/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214960313&sr=1-7) did a multi-volume series on WW3. I read it when I was a kid, and liked a lot. All seemed mostly realistic following the Russian over the Fulda Gap story and beyond.

He's like a lesser known/accomplished Tom Clancy.

[Hellfish]

Ian Slater (http://www.amazon.com/WW-III-World-Flames/dp/0449145646/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214960313&sr=1-7) did a multi-volume series on WW3. I read it when I was a kid, and liked a lot. All seemed mostly realistic following the Russian over the Fulda Gap story and beyond.

He's like a lesser known/accomplished Tom Clancy.

I totally disagree. This was the worst series of war books I've ever read - I read two of them five years apart and both made me want to burn the books. Honestly... I'm not disagreeing with you to be a ****, but they're GOD AWFUL books written by an author who never bothered to do basic research.

I really, really, really caution anybody about reading them.

[Hellfish]

^^^^ I read it for the first time when I was in high school too, and I only enjoyed the first chapter (the battles from the first day of the war). I re-read it later and found it more enjoyable. I re-read it again a few months back and loved it. Give it a go - it is a book only meant for a mature audience.

One of the things that I remember about it was a combat scene with either M60A2s or M551 Sheridans firing Shillealagh missiles at Soviets. I remember thinking how novel that was, as my dad worked with M60A2s as a company commander in the '70s and complained about how goddamned horrible the tanks and those missiles were.

As an aside, it was my dad's book that I read and he liked the story. That should count for something.

There may come a time when I'm willing to go back and reread it as an adult - maybe I'll find something to like about it then.

[Laworkerbee]

I totally disagree. This was the worst series of war books I've ever read - I read two of them five years apart and both made me want to burn the books. Honestly... I'm not disagreeing with you to be a ****, but they're GOD AWFUL books written by an author who never bothered to do basic research.

I really, really, really caution anybody about reading them.

Once again I'm in agreement with Douchebag ^

[loganinkosovo]

One of the things that I remember about it was a combat scene with either M60A2s or M551 Sheridans firing Shillealagh missiles at Soviets. I remember thinking how novel that was, as my dad worked with M60A2s as a company commander in the '70s and complained about how goddamned horrible the tanks and those missiles were.

As an aside, it was my dad's book that I read and he liked the story. That should count for something.

There may come a time when I'm willing to go back and reread it as an adult - maybe I'll find something to like about it then.

It's "Fiction"! The Equipment always works in Fiction! :)

[Hutz]

I totally disagree. This was the worst series of war books I've ever read - I read two of them five years apart and both made me want to burn the books. Honestly... I'm not disagreeing with you to be a ****, but they're GOD AWFUL books written by an author who never bothered to do basic research.

I really, really, really caution anybody about reading them.

I can't blame you for disagreeing, I read them when I was 14, so they're probably not nearly as good as I remember.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Disagree. I still think that was a horrible book. Granted, I read it when I was 14.

Well this thread has inspired me to go check out The Third World War from the library...will report back later.

[Laworkerbee]

Ian Slater (http://www.amazon.com/WW-III-World-Flames/dp/0449145646/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214960313&sr=1-7) did a multi-volume series on WW3. I read it when I was a kid, and liked a lot. All seemed mostly realistic following the Russian over the Fulda Gap story and beyond.

He's like a lesser known/accomplished Tom Clancy.

I was thinking about this last night, there was chapter in one of his books were I think M1 Abrams tanks are fighting in Siberia, anyhow they get bogged down and PT-76 light tanks are able to swarm and destroy them.

I hope I'm thinking of the right book, that was kind of cool.

[Hellfish]

I was thinking about this last night, there was chapter in one of his books were I think M1 Abrams tanks are fighting in Siberia, anyhow they get bogged down and PT-76 light tanks are able to swarm and destroy them.

I hope I'm thinking of the right book, that was kind of cool.

I remember in one of the books, Delta Force or SF were operating in China in DPVs and when the Chinese shot some ATGMs at them, they shot 'em all down with .50cal fire.

Yeah. Manual .50 cal Phalanx... :roll:

[Laworkerbee]

I remember in one of the books, Delta Force or SF were operating in China in DPVs and when the Chinese shot some ATGMs at them, they shot 'em all down with .50cal fire.

Yeah. Manual .50 cal Phalanx... :roll:

I should make up a fake system and post it for the gear heads here to drool over.

[GIJOEJK]

I have most of the books listed here, and then some. Actually, I was inspired to create my own WWIII game; http://www.redcruciblemod.com

I plan to have a demo ready by the end of this year...

[orionhawk]

"Failsafe" is amazing, mainly due to the actors - George Clooney, Harvey Keitel and others. It follows a (fictional) crisis when a computer in the mid-50s sends a wrong code to the strategic bombers to attack the USSR. We follow the generals in the control room, the bomber pilots, the president of the US and others.
I was actually referring to the novel. I haven't seen the movie.

[Hellfish]

I have most of the books listed here, and then some. Actually, I was inspired to create my own WWIII game; http://www.redcruciblemod.com

I plan to have a demo ready by the end of this year...

Wow. That looks really good. Too bad it's not first person.

[TechPriest]

The attack of Minsk, a series of japanese novels featuring sino-russo full-scale of war in the 70s. Full of spoilers.

[Yosy]

I was actually referring to the novel. I haven't seen the movie.

I never read the novel, but loved the movie - and I didn't even know that it was broadcasted live when I saw it.

[Hellfish]

The attack of Minsk, a series of japanese novels featuring sino-russo full-scale of war in the 70s. Full of spoilers.

Available in English?

[GIJOEJK]

Hey guys

I read this guys work, very entertaining though quite campy.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~avalon11/WW3THEZONE/THE%20ZONE%2000%20THE%20SERIES.htm

Worth getting if you are into the alternative Cold War thing...

[mi35d]

Failsafe is based on a book titled, "Red Alert". Also the source for "Dr. Strangelove".

[GDS Starfury02]

there is a second book by Hackett called the The Third World War: The Untold Story. it fleshes out the story by going into other theaters and giving more details about the main fight in central Europe. the ISBN # is 0-02-547110-4
another fun book is Cold War Hot: Alternate Decisions of the Cold War by Peter Tsouras. he writes a lot of 'what if' military history. the ISBN # is 1-85367-530-x

[orionhawk]

Failsafe is based on a book titled, "Red Alert". Also the source for "Dr. Strangelove".
umm... no. there are marked similarities, but the movie "Fail-Safe" is based on the novel "Fail-Safe". "Strangelove" is based on "Red Alert".

Wiki mentions that the author of "Red Alert" sued the authors of "Fail-Safe" for plagiarism.

there was also a TV-play in 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_%281964_film%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_%28novel%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert_%28novel%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove_or:_How_I_Learned_to_Stop_Worrying_and_Love_the_Bomb

[GrinchWSLG]

Red Alert had a happier ending. Also had Rangers storming a US Airbase and getting pinned down by flak towers.

[Laworkerbee]

I would recommend Vortex, by Larry Bond.

Cuban\African invasion of South Africa, the Saffies respond with nukes and the United States intervenes.

Quite a good read.

[muttbutt]

http://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Fury-World-against-America/dp/0971577900/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215628038&sr=1-1

Jeff Head's "Dragon fury" series, I got the 1 bound volume of all the book's, part's of it are crazy, over the top and I could have done with out some of the "overly religious" bit's creeping in near the end, but an enjoyable WWIII romp, oh and he has a good working knowlage of modern military gear, so no real ".50 manual phanlanx" type **** up'sp-)


Oh and shock horror us Eurowussies are not protrayed as evi backstabbing non fighting coward's....even the French :) which is a nice touch I though,plus Jeff's a nice guy, BD would know of him.

[Hellfish]

I would recommend Vortex, by Larry Bond.

Cuban\African invasion of South Africa, the Saffies respond with nukes and the United States intervenes.

Quite a good read.

Agreed. Excellent book. Got my interested in South Africa.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Fury-World-against-America/dp/0971577900/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215628038&sr=1-1

Jeff Head's "Dragon fury" series, I got the 1 bound volume of all the book's, part's of it are crazy, over the top and I could have done with out some of the "overly religious" bit's creeping in near the end, but an enjoyable WWIII romp, oh and he has a good working knowlage of modern military gear, so no real ".50 manual phanlanx" type **** up'sp-)


Oh and shock horror us Eurowussies are not protrayed as evi backstabbing non fighting coward's....even the French :) which is a nice touch I though,plus Jeff's a nice guy, BD would know of him.

I read the first one. The guy obviously had an agenda, but at the same time he wrote some pretty interesting stuff. Some bat**** crazy off the wall stuff, but some good stuff too.

Unfortunately, I couldn't stomach reading any of the other books. I think there was a part where the combined Iraqi/Iranian air force annihilated an entire US armored division and a good chunk of the USAF too.

[muttbutt]

Agreed. Excellent book. Got my interested in South Africa.



I read the first one. The guy obviously had an agenda, but at the same time he wrote some pretty interesting stuff. Some bat**** crazy off the wall stuff, but some good stuff too.

Unfortunately, I couldn't stomach reading any of the other books. I think there was a part where the combined Iraqi/Iranian air force annihilated an entire US armored division and a good chunk of the USAF too.Yeah it was mental in part's but at least it was something different to the usual, Tom Clancy has the US winning with 3 guy's in a humvee and some super cool UAV in BATD:roll:

and yeah he has an agenda, but I ignored it, I'm more of the whizz bang techno thriller reader, as long as it's cool and semi plusiblep-)

[Hellfish]

You're right... it was different, which is why I appreciated it. I can't stand Clancy for the same reasons as you - a humvee with four guys can wipe out the nationalist Russian/communist Chinese/terrorist army without a single loss.

I was particularly interested in the merchant ship conversions that the guy had the Chinese building. They're remarkably feasible, especially for the Chinese who have large merchant fleets, operate pirated vessels, and have a significant shipbuilding industry. Nobody'll miss a couple of 40,000 ton container ships if they're in dock somewhere getting fitted with either flight decks, elevators or landing craft.

[James]

I would recommend Vortex, by Larry Bond.

Cuban\African invasion of South Africa, the Saffies respond with nukes and the United States intervenes.

Quite a good read.

That got me thinking about another of his; I believe it was called Red Phoenix and was about a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

As an aside, I am at this very moment reading More Than Courage by Harold Coyle. It's set today more or less, but between it and this thread I want to read Team Yankee and Bright Star again.

[Laworkerbee]

That got me thinking about another of his; I believe it was called Red Phoenix and was about a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

As an aside, I am at this very moment reading More Than Courage by Harold Coyle. It's set today more or less, but between it and this thread I want to read Team Yankee and Bright Star again.

Red Phoenix was an excellent read, I had forgotten all about that one, Team Yankee and Bright Star were great as well.

[Hellfish]

That got me thinking about another of his; I believe it was called Red Phoenix and was about a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

As an aside, I am at this very moment reading More Than Courage by Harold Coyle. It's set today more or less, but between it and this thread I want to read Team Yankee and Bright Star again.

Coyle kinda went the same route as Larry Bond and Tom Clancy - focusing on hyper-competent, uber-Type A personality super agent individuals in their new books instead of good old all aspect war stories that they were famous for in the first place.

I like my book characters to have doubts and flaws. The Ranger commander from Vortex was a good example of this.

The first couple of Jack Ryan books were good (Clear and Present Danger, Patriot Games), but beyond that it got to be too much. Even Patriot Games kinda made my eyes roll...

Especially when the authors use these characters to describe what they wish they could have been (Clancy wants to be Jack Ryan).

[Whitcomb]

That got me thinking about another of his; I believe it was called Red Phoenix and was about a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

As an aside, I am at this very moment reading More Than Courage by Harold Coyle. It's set today more or less, but between it and this thread I want to read Team Yankee and Bright Star again.

I'm reading another of his right now. Titled Cauldron. It's about a European Confederation (EurCon), which is pretty much France and Germany teaming up to take over the majority of Western Europe. US and UK are involved too, highly recommended.

[Hellfish]

Cauldron began Bond's downward slide for me. It was a good story, written well, but the background story was just kind of... meh.

[Laworkerbee]

I'm reading another of his right now. Titled Cauldron. It's about a European Confederation (EurCon), which is pretty much France and Germany teaming up to take over the majority of Western Europe. US and UK are involved too, highly recommended.

I believe the French launch a nuke at a USN battle group in that one, this thread is giving me flashbacks from yesteryear.


Cauldron began Bond's downward slide for me. It was a good story, written well, but the background story was just kind of... meh.

Was it the Ex Hitler youth guy who becomes Germany's president? uses Eastern Germans to push America out of its remaining bases or something like that?

[TR1]

That got me thinking about another of his; I believe it was called Red Phoenix and was about a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

As an aside, I am at this very moment reading More Than Courage by Harold Coyle. It's set today more or less, but between it and this thread I want to read Team Yankee and Bright Star again.
Read it, sucks. very clansy like. Typical "everyting american is superior to anything else" type book. and the convos that the NKs and Soviets have in the book are just idiotic.

[Hellfish]

Read it, sucks. very clansy like. Typical "everyting american is superior to anything else" type book. and the convos that the NKs and Soviets have in the book are just idiotic.

I liked it a lot. And I disagree with your assessment. Americans took heavy losses.

[Lokos]

You know, North Korea re-invading the South is the solitary scenario in which I don't see the US forces as having too many serious problems in wiping the floor with the opposition. The North Korean army is a dream opponent for modern military institutions. Decrepit, poorly supplied and suicidally brave.

How does Clancy manage to inflict serious losses on the Americans in that one?

L.

[Hellfish]

Clancy didn't write it. And yes, mostly from artillery. :)

[Hellfish]

Is there any Russian military fiction like this?

[Laworkerbee]

Read it, sucks. very clansy like. Typical "everyting american is superior to anything else" type book. and the convos that the NKs and Soviets have in the book are just idiotic.

Its true, time to harden up Tovarich :)


Is there any Russian military fiction like this?

Yes, but they are called history books....bada dum, I'm hear all week folks

[Lokos]

Almost certainly - though probably of Clancy (read: bad) quality.


And yes, mostly from artillery.

Ahh, yes. Those '20,000 tubes of doom' unleashed something fierce, did they?

L.

[Hellfish]

Yes, but they are called history books....bada dum, I'm hear all week folks

You spelled here wrong.

[Hellfish]

Ahh, yes. Those '20,000 tubes of doom' unleashed something fierce, did they?

L.

Well it wasn't gonna be the swarms of T-55s and BTR-60s. p-)

[Laworkerbee]

You spelled here wrong.

The Ruskies would never have noticed.

[James]

Read it, sucks. very clansy like. Typical "everyting american is superior to anything else" type book. and the convos that the NKs and Soviets have in the book are just idiotic.

Well go read Red Army you cry baby, the Russians win in that one.

[TR1]

Well go read Red Army you cry baby, the Russians win in that one.p-)
It's not about who won, its about idiotic encounters, factually wrong info, and moronic characters. Basically a book for all you "america **** yeah" people.

I loved the weapons descriptions in the end of the book took.
american stuff- great, reliable, wonderfull, then adds one small critisism to make it look believable
soviet stuff-not so hot, decent, not great compared to american things

now ok, it wasn't HORIBBLE, but many parts I thought were crap. Although the Kilo shooting down the P-3 was humorous.
I'd probablty have difficulty finding a book of this type I'd like, be it Russian, American, or Nigerian.



There's worse though, it could always be the 'Bear and the Dragon". After that, Phoenix looks positively delicous.

[James]

If anyone is interested in a decent read about Afghanistan in the 1980s I suggest Black Tulip by Milt Bearden. As for a classic WWIII scenario in Germany, I can only repeat Red Army. It's written entirely from the Soviet perspective, and it was written by an honest to God U.S. Army intelligence officer, Ralph Peters. I think it (and pretty much everything else he's written) stands head and shoulders above anything from Clancy, Bond, Coyle, or Slater.

[TR1]

Very intersting, I will get a copy at the nearby bookstore when I have the chance, thanks!

[Hellfish]

Even I liked it. Pinko bastard.

[loganinkosovo]

Louis L Amour's book "The Last of the Breed" is another interesting fictional novel on the US-Soviet Cold War.

[Jaeger522]

Was it the Ex Hitler youth guy who becomes Germany's president? uses Eastern Germans to push America out of its remaining bases or something like that?[/quote]

That was "The 10000" by Harold Coyle - not bad but not as good as "team Yankee" imho.

[Laworkerbee]

That was "The 10000" by Harold Coyle - not bad but not as good as "team Yankee" imho.

Thanks man,

I think everyone agrees Team Yankee was a great read.

[Jaeger522]

Yes, that it surely is :)

And although it has been said many times before in this thread - Red Army is still one of my absolut favourites.

[Laworkerbee]

While we are recommending Ralph Peters books then I have to throw out the "The War In 2020". Damned good read, that book.

[Jaeger522]

While we are recommending Ralph Peters books then I have to throw out the "The War In 2020". Damned good read, that book.

Hmm, I didn't like it that much. After Red Army, I felt it was a disappointment. But maybe I just have to re-read it :)

Btw - are still other people around who play tactical/strategic boardgames (not computer) - like "Tac Air" (NATO vs WP in Fulda Gap in an 80's setting) ?

[Laworkerbee]

Hmm, I didn't like it that much. After Red Army, I felt it was a disappointment. But maybe I just have to re-read it :)

Btw - are still other people around who play tactical/strategic boardgames (not computer) - like "Tac Air" (NATO vs WP in Fulda Gap in an 80's setting) ?

C'mon man! The radio-wave weapon was terrifying as was the gas attack on the Russian armored column. I loved the Mexico and Los Angeles chapters, hell surviving Southern Africa after he is shot down and left behind.....**** I'm going to reread it right now you board game playing nerd! p-)

[Jaeger522]

C'mon man! The radio-wave weapon was terrifying as was the gas attack on the Russian armored column. I loved the Mexico and Los Angeles chapters, hell surviving Southern Africa after he is shot down and left behind.....**** I'm going to reread it right now you board game playing nerd! p-)

And let's not forget the Russian Colonel with the bad teeth/gums - still don't really have good memories of it - but then I must have read it more than 10 years ago.

Hey - I am a proud nerd :)

[Laworkerbee]

And let's not forget the Russian Colonel with the bad teeth/gums - still don't really have good memories of it - but then I must have read it more than 10 years ago.

Hey - I am a proud nerd :)

Loved that character.

[Jaeger522]

But there weren't that many good books on that topic anyway, if I remember correctly and it is highly unlikely that more will be written anytime soon.
A pity - those few WW3 books are still amongst my favourites, even today.

[Lokos]

Was 'The War in 2020' the one where Japan uses Muslim extremists to attack Russia's soft underbelly, and it all somehow culminates with an American pilot in an experimental rail-gun armed helicopter destroying no less than ~2,000 AFVs in one sortie? To be honest, I was not a fan of that particular novel.

Lokos

[Laworkerbee]

Was 'The War in 2020' the one where Japan uses Muslim extremists to attack Russia's soft underbelly, and it all somehow culminates with an American pilot in an experimental rail-gun armed helicopter destroying no less than ~2,000 AFVs in one sortie? To be honest, I was not a fan of that particular novel.

Lokos

It was an American cavalry regiment operating in some kind of futuristic rail gun armed V-22 Osprey's, they played a relatively minor role in the book as far as I was concerned. There were several armies attacking Russia, one was rebels from the Caucus region using old Russian gear and an Arab or Persian front using the latest Japanese gear.

Thought of another part of the book I liked, when they capture the Japanese computer and the Soviet guy tortures it, I dream of being able to torture troublesome computers hehehe.

[GDS Starfury02]

Btw - are still other people around who play tactical/strategic boardgames (not computer) - like "Tac Air" (NATO vs WP in Fulda Gap in an 80's setting) ?

I still have all my board games. mostly Avalon Hill stuff and GDW. I dont have Tac Air but I do have Air Cav. p-)

[MichaelF]

I hate Harold Coyle.

For a guy with his resume, he disappoints every time.

He spends half the book setting up these wonderfully intricate apocalyptic clashes...only to defuse them at the last minute so that the Bang is more of a Whimper.

I cannot see the Luftwaffe sabotaging their own planes, so that a US Mechanized Corps can traverse Germany from the Czech border to Bremerhaven, in direct defiance of the Bundestag and the Chancellor. Especially once the US Army starts lobbing shells at the units of the Bundeswehr (mostly evil East Germans, straight from WWII Central Casting) who do try to stop them.

Same thing happens in "Against All Enemies", Idaho seccedes from the Union, but the Idaho NG is sidelined (against all evidence, including the first half of the plot) by....the Militias (fat, greasy people who want automatic weapons), so that the US Army (led by....Harold Coyle, writ large) can slap them aside and win without much collateral damage.

Harold Coyle: all show, no go.

He's also wayyyyy too teary-eyed about the South (read: the Confederacy). To the point where Harold Coyle (or rather GEN Dixon, Coyle's alter ego) takes about 5 pages to make sure that the reader understands that the South was trying to split off from the Union over noble purposes (like Slavery and supporting an agricultural feudalism), while the Idahoans are doing so over petty causes (like Judicial Activism and Federal Encroachment, and the 2nd Amendment)....

[MichaelF]

FYI: there is a third edition of TWILIGHT 2000 coming out this year. TWILIGHT: 2013.

Basically, they try to adjust events so that the Twilight War takes place in the current timeline, instead of (what became) the alternate timeline where the USSR survived into the 90's and the War was fought from 93-2000.

Looks like the War now begins in 2010.

http://www.93gamesstudio.com/site/

[Hellfish]

FYI: there is a third edition of TWILIGHT 2000 coming out this year. TWILIGHT: 2013.

Basically, they try to adjust events so that the Twilight War takes place in the current timeline, instead of (what became) the alternate timeline where the USSR survived into the 90's and the War was fought from 93-2000.

Looks like the War now begins in 2010.

http://www.93gamesstudio.com/site/

Yeah, I saw that. I don't think I can play boardgames anymore, though. I've been too spoiled by computers doing all the mundane stuff for me.

[MichaelF]

The War in 2020....

Odd book. One of the characters has a line something like: "She remembered the last time she had been anally penetrated by him", that just comes out of nowhere, and seems to be there just because Ralph got bored typing all this crap.

[GIJOEJK]

One of the characters has a line something like: "She remembered the last time she had been anally penetrated by him"

Nah, the publisher just wanted some romance "dumped in". They thought it would make the story deeper...

[Jaeger522]

I hate Harold Coyle.

For a guy with his resume, he disappoints every time.

He spends half the book setting up these wonderfully intricate apocalyptic clashes...only to defuse them at the last minute so that the Bang is more of a Whimper.

I cannot see the Luftwaffe sabotaging their own planes, so that a US Mechanized Corps can traverse Germany from the Czech border to Bremerhaven, in direct defiance of the Bundestag and the Chancellor. Especially once the US Army starts lobbing shells at the units of the Bundeswehr (mostly evil East Germans, straight from WWII Central Casting) who do try to stop them.

Same thing happens in "Against All Enemies", Idaho seccedes from the Union, but the Idaho NG is sidelined (against all evidence, including the first half of the plot) by....the Militias (fat, greasy people who want automatic weapons), so that the US Army (led by....Harold Coyle, writ large) can slap them aside and win without much collateral damage.

Harold Coyle: all show, no go.

He's also wayyyyy too teary-eyed about the South (read: the Confederacy). To the point where Harold Coyle (or rather GEN Dixon, Coyle's alter ego) takes about 5 pages to make sure that the reader understands that the South was trying to split off from the Union over noble purposes (like Slavery and supporting an agricultural feudalism), while the Idahoans are doing so over petty causes (like Judicial Activism and Federal Encroachment, and the 2nd Amendment)....


I agree on the comments on "The 10000" !
I found the reaction of many German units to be completly unbelivable.
On Twighlight 2000 or 2013 - cool. I haven't played that in a long time (and I doubt I would actually find people to play now) :)

[Mike Kilo]

Hmm, I didn't like it that much. After Red Army, I felt it was a disappointment. But maybe I just have to re-read it :)

Btw - are still other people around who play tactical/strategic boardgames (not computer) - like "Tac Air" (NATO vs WP in Fulda Gap in an 80's setting) ?

I play another Avalon Hill classic...Advanced Squad Leader...Tactical, squad level board game, set in WWII

[RDH94CT]

This has already been mentioned, and it is a PC game, but I thought World in Conflict, with the backstory written by Larry Bond, had a pretty interesting plot. Set in 1989, it includes a Soviet attack into W. Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, an amphibious assault on France, and an attack on Washington State. It only really covers the French and American theatres, but it's not a bad story, for a video game.

[MichaelF]

This has already been mentioned, and it is a PC game, but I thought World in Conflict, with the backstory written by Larry Bond, had a pretty interesting plot. Set in 1989, it includes a Soviet attack into W. Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, an amphibious assault on France, and an attack on Washington State. It only really covers the French and American theatres, but it's not a bad story, for a video game.

Always amazed me that the Soviets managed to penetrate the Med, all the way to Marseilles, when they don't even have in-Theatre naval parity with the Italians, never mind the French. How they managed to get past the Turks in the first place escapes me.

Ditto with the Seattle Invasion. Crossing the Pacific undetected, even in civilian-marked ships, is.....unpossible. Especially in groups of ships....

They should have gone with Bond's initial scenario of a Soviet invasion across the Berin Straits, into Alaska. That was believable. If most of the US Army and major Guard units are off in Europe, the Soviets (even the second and third-line troops available, stiffened with VDV or Naval Infantry) might have penetrated to the PNW, via BC, before we stopped them.

The South France Invasion was just ridiculous (Operationally and Logistically). Thrace or Yugoslavia are much more reasonable "southern" fronts (IOW, the WARPAC can actually reach them).

[RDH94CT]

Always amazed me that the Soviets managed to penetrate the Med, all the way to Marseilles, when they don't even have in-Theatre naval parity with the Italians, never mind the French. How they managed to get past the Turks in the first place escapes me.

Ditto with the Seattle Invasion. Crossing the Pacific undetected, even in civilian-marked ships, is.....unpossible. Especially in groups of ships....

They should have gone with Bond's initial scenario of a Soviet invasion across the Berin Straits, into Alaska. That was believable. If most of the US Army and major Guard units are off in Europe, the Soviets (even the second and third-line troops available, stiffened with VDV or Naval Infantry) might have penetrated to the PNW, via BC, before we stopped them.

The South France Invasion was just ridiculous (Operationally and Logistically). Thrace or Yugoslavia are much more reasonable "southern" fronts (IOW, the WARPAC can actually reach them).

The Seattle invasion is pretty ridiculous, I agree, but Seattle is a much more interesting city to invade/defend then Anchorage, Alaska. I'm sure that is the only reason why they scrapped the Alaska scenerio; Alaska/Northern Canada dosen't allow you to fight in rural US towns, which is a critical plot point in most US-invasion media, especially after Red Dawn.

[MichaelF]

The Seattle invasion is pretty ridiculous, I agree, but Seattle is a much more interesting city to invade/defend then Anchorage, Alaska. I'm sure that is the only reason why they scrapped the Alaska scenerio; Alaska/Northern Canada dosen't allow you to fight in rural US towns, which is a critical plot point in most US-invasion media, especially after Red Dawn.

Once most of the Regular Army and the Guard E-Brigades were deployed to Europe, I'm betting a Soviet trans-Bering invasion would have gotten into Washington State before it the US/CAN Main Line of Resistance was stabilized.

Seattle would be a likely final battleground, as the Cascades form a pretty solid natural barrier to the East.

[RDH94CT]

Once most of the Regular Army and the Guard E-Brigades were deployed to Europe, I'm betting a Soviet trans-Bering invasion would have gotten into Washington State before it the US/CAN Main Line of Resistance was stabilized.

Seattle would be a likely final battleground, as the Cascades form a pretty solid natural barrier to the East.

The US campaign aside,(I think we can both agree that Bond was right) one thing they should have done with that game that irked me was that they really didn't mention anything about West Germany and the rest of Central Europe. That was supposed to be the mother of all tank battles, and all it got was some passing referances and some overhead shots of the Soviets progress during the loading screen.

But, I'm sure that they'll release an expansion pack/sequel that deals with the US side of things again. Maybe World in Conflict: The Push to Moscow?

[MichaelF]

The other annoying thing is the masses of heavy units (Tanks and Mechanized Infantry) that are available to the Soviets (in the story, not the actual gameplay).

In the two main Theatres shown (Pacific NW and Southern France), they are operating at the end of a supply line that stretches several thousand miles, most of which is water.

Kind of hard to transport Fulda-level tank/IFV concentrations, plus the ammo, parts and POL to operate them, across that kind of MSR. Especially when NATO is bombing the crap out of any ship with the Hammer&Sickle on it.

Most of those forces would be Motor Rifle units, with a reduced BTR presence (probably enough to move 1 Battalion out of every 3, the rest being footmobile) and a small Tank/BMP mobile force.

[RDH94CT]

The other annoying thing is the masses of heavy units (Tanks and Mechanized Infantry) that are available to the Soviets (in the story, not the actual gameplay).

In the two main Theatres shown (Pacific NW and Southern France), they are operating at the end of a supply line that stretches several thousand miles, most of which is water.

Kind of hard to transport Fulda-level tank/IFV concentrations, plus the ammo, parts and POL to operate them, across that kind of MSR. Especially when NATO is bombing the crap out of any ship with the Hammer&Sickle on it.

Most of those forces would be Motor Rifle units, with a reduced BTR presence (probably enough to move 1 Battalion out of every 3, the rest being footmobile) and a small Tank/BMP mobile force.

I agree with you for France, as the other NATO navies in the Med were presumably spared the Third Fleet's virtual destruction, but I think they mentioned something about there being "not much left" of the US Pacific Fleet, and they never really specified how many Ro/Ros the Soviets had in
Seattle Harbor. They could have brought in fleets of ships, not to mention transport aircraft making Trans-Pacific flights into any airports they captured, resupplying the division or two the had for the month and a half they were there. Plus, a giant Chinese fleet was on the way to relieve them, so they may have not anticipated to hold out for that long.

[khalifah]

this has been bothering me for a while, so Im just going to say it...

all these books I see here so far are of Soviet agression, has there been any books talking about, (sigh) NATO invading the USSR?

just saying...

[MichaelF]

this has been bothering me for a while, so Im just going to say it...

all these books I see here so far are of Soviet agression, has there been any books talking about, (sigh) NATO invading the USSR?

just saying...

Due to the Centralized nature of the WARPACT in general, and the USSR in particular, it's much easier to get a war going from that side (Politburo gives the order, the Soviet Army marches and the WARPACT nations probably adhere).
NATO, OTOH, had a bunch of members who, shall we say, weren't as enthusiastic as others. To include the West Germans, who didn't really appreciate the idea of being used as the FEBA for a US/USSR shoving match. Sure, they would have fought brilliantly...on the defense. It's unlikely they would have allowed NATO to initiate an invasion of the WARPACT from West German soil.

Never mind trying to get Canada or the UK on board for a NATO offense. Much less Italy or Holland. Or Norway (another FEBA area).

Lastly, the WARPACT would kick our asses. They would be able to use all that strategic depth, while falling back on their own supply lines (while ours get longer).

[Hellfish]

Twilight 2000 involved the West Germans invading the East Germans, who welcomed them. That kind of dragged the rest of NATO in.

[MichaelF]

Twilight 2000 involved the West Germans invading the East Germans, who welcomed them. That kind of dragged the rest of NATO in.

It also had Italy and Greece leaving NATO and allying with the WARPACT.

Wat?

TW2K had a great timeline. Except for that (and the Mexican Army kicking our asses in Texas).

[Hellfish]

And France and Belgium left NATO too.

I think any of us could come up with more plausible and enjoyable plots than much of the crap out there.

[khalifah]

thanks Michael for the info...

and thanks Hellfish for the story in twilight 2000

[Lokos]

all these books I see here so far are of Soviet agression, has there been any books talking about, (sigh) NATO invading the USSR?

Aside from MichaelF being right about the lack of potential for a decisive military victory for NATO in that scenario, you should also take into account that the Soviets weren't waiting around to fight another bloody, possibly total war on their own territory again. Their doctrine more or less embodied the concept of the preemptive strike. If they felt that war was inevitable (that is not to say that they were looking for it; WW3 was the bogey-man everyone liked to contemplate, but no one wanted to see happen) they would have launched their first tier forces into West Germany and made a break for the Atlantic. They would have fought such a war on NATO's soil - which would have hopefully nonplussed NATO's leadership as to the tenability of utilizing nuclear strike packages on Soviet spearheads. Meanwhile, the Soviets would have had no qualms about tactical nuclear strikes on NATO concentrations.

It's basically another incarnation of 'hugging the enemy' that the Soviets used in Stalingrad to force caution unto the Germans when it came to artillery support.

Honestly, though, any attacker in a WW3 setting faces enormous, enormous difficulties.

L.

[Hellfish]

I've heard it before, that the Soviets were pretty liberal in their doctrine with tactical nuclear weapons, but why were they? Was it a use-it or lose-it mentality with them? The after effects were of no significant consequence compared to the gains they could offer? What about fallout - I believe the prevailing winds would likely blow a lot of that fallout east, right?

[Lokos]

I believe that the potential fallout was not considered a major strategic factor. 10-100kt strikes on airbases, defensive lynch-pins, supply depots and known HQs were to go ahead from zero hour onwards.

L.

[martinexsquaddie]

remember joking with some German tank commander in wales you training to invade Poland?
"Nein Nein Poland very wrong" looking very angry MOSCOW ja:)

[Jaeger522]

I totally disagree. This was the worst series of war books I've ever read - I read two of them five years apart and both made me want to burn the books. Honestly... I'm not disagreeing with you to be a ****, but they're GOD AWFUL books written by an author who never bothered to do basic research.

I really, really, really caution anybody about reading them.

I didn't listen to your advice and paid dearly for it .....
I bought and read the first 2 of them - a total waste of money and (much worse) time.
I shall listen more closely to your advice from now on p-)

[Britboy]

Alright, some very interesting points on this thread of late. Looks like we are venturing more into the realms of potential situations rather than books, which is good, as this is a v interesting conflict, probably the one that was prepared for the most but never happened!

Someone has mentioned W German opposition to tac nuc wpns. In this situ, I can see that NATO's multi-national approach to nuc wpns has the potential to be a great disadvantage. As I understand it, different units from different nations were responsible for different stages of nuclear readiness, from custodianship of the weapons to firing them. However a disagreement from any one member state then surely derails the whole process... Which may very well suit that member state's conviction at that point in time, but may not suit NATO overall. For example, the USSR may well be using tac nucs like they were going out of fashion, with great effect on NATO forces, and including great devastation on the W European lands. If these effects are going to be highly devastating to the localities in any case then surely it is as well NATO employs these weapons rather than the USSR?
Could you even have the situ where theatre nuc release has taken place but govts still object to tac nuc release on their soil? Despite the fact that enemy tac nucs are already ruining the area as well as giving the upper hand to the USSR?

Another point, surely all this nuc release nullifies what is likely to be the motive for the war. War is most often used to secure more land or natural resources, either for their worth or for use as bargaining chips. Scorched earth has little value in either of those categories to my mind, so the only explanation could be due to internal pressures (like Argentina and Falklands 1982) or as a type of preemptive action due to concern over the threat posed by NATO. But if you are concerned by NATO's capabilities (we mainly held the advantage at the nuclear end of the spectrum I understand) then you would hardly attack with conventional forces + tac nucs as your massive opening blow would you...

Another theme that seems to be generally accepted is that the USSR effectively pushes East. What then happens if they push NATO forces back, or destroy them, so that they do reach the Atlantic?

That has got to be the mother of all phase lines.

Does anyone see an invasion of the UK? Of right wing Spain as it was?
Does anyone see the USSR really getting that far - either due to NATO holding out (even if it did mean tac nucs in W Europe), or due to the escalation to theatre/strat nuc release?
As an example, France had an independent strategic nuclear deterrent. Would they restrain themselves to stand by or conform to the overall NATO plan whilst Sov OMGs exploited into their country? After just seeing what happened to W Germany? Not likely...

To the US and the USSR it might have been theatre war that didn't threaten Washington nor Moscow; and hence no strat nuc release may be given. But to people in European capitals a strat nuc release and a theatre nuclear war in your backyard would not be distinguishable at all - it would all be a war for survival!

This is just considering NATO nuclear states. There is also the fact that there were other nations in the world with nuclear capability who would be feeling decidedly uneasy at this time (what would S Africa or Israel be thinking, for example), as well as of course China!

And another interesting factor is what of those countries who had no ready-to-go nuclear deterrent but could conceivably manufacture, acquire or reactivate one in a short period of time; say, a number of months of tension/buildup prior to the conflict. Sweden, anyone?

[Atlantic Friend]

Btw - are still other people around who play tactical/strategic boardgames (not computer) - like "Tac Air" (NATO vs WP in Fulda Gap in an 80's setting) ?

AAh, nostalgia...All the Victory Games wargames, like TacAir, Central America, The Korean War, Flashpoint:GOlan(loved the turn system), the Fleet series...

[Atlantic Friend]

And let's not forget the Russian Colonel with the bad teeth/gums - still don't really have good memories of it - but then I must have read it more than 10 years ago.

Hey - I am a proud nerd :)

It's mandatory to have at least one non-US characters have to have bad teeth in militray techno-thrillers !

The Russian Colonel in "The War in 2020", the French Admiral Gibiergue in Larry Bond's "Cauldron"...

[BAF]

how about "On the Beach", by Nevil Shute?
or "Failsafe" (I don't remember who wrote that one)


or, for a movie, "By Dawn's Early Light"


I saw "on the beach" as a movie, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here already :p

but that movie left a very heavy impression on me, i could not sleep that night, its seemed to be to close to what might really happen :s

[BAF]

today i went out and bought Red Storm Rising written by Tom clancy, after seeing the comments here about that book. i hope its as good as you guys say it is ;)

[SoSo]

today i went out and bought Red Storm Rising written by Tom clancy, after seeing the comments here about that book. i hope its as good as you guys say it is ;)

It's pretty good. Also, try "Red Army" by Ralph Peters.

[BAF]

It's pretty good. Also, try "Red Army" by Ralph Peters.


i have written down the title, i'll see if i can find it anywere :) thanks mate ;)

[Hellfish]

Look for Arc Light by Eric L. Harry too.

[BAF]

Look for Arc Light by Eric L. Harry too.

i've googeld it, and indeed it seems great, i just hope i can buy these books here in belgium, somethimes thats a problem :-|

[SoSo]

i have written down the title, i'll see if i can find it anywere :) thanks mate ;)

Try Amazon.com used books. You can get books for under a dollar. You have to pay for shipping, of course, which is four dollars here in the US. Of course, it'll cost more to ship to Belgium. Maybe there is a European book seller with these books in stock. Good luck.

[Atlantic Friend]

Look for Arc Light by Eric L. Harry too.

I think I have read that one. If that's the one, boy did I hate the goddamn book.

[BAF]

Try Amazon.com used books. You can get books for under a dollar. You have to pay for shipping, of course, which is four dollars here in the US. Of course, it'll cost more to ship to Belgium. Maybe there is a European book seller with these books in stock. Good luck.


yeah, i'll try it out, thanks for the info :)

[orionhawk]

I saw "on the beach" as a movie, dont know if anyone has mentioned it here already :p

but that movie left a very heavy impression on me, i could not sleep that night, its seemed to be to close to what might really happen :s
the book had much the same effect on me, although it didn't interfere with my sleep. only movie that ever did that was "Silent Hill". goddamn little burned baby-things...