Estonians Withdrew from Finno-Ugrics congress

[Alexandr]

http://www.kommersant.com/p907640/r_527/A_scandal_in_Russian_Khanty_Mansiysk/


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Toomas_Hendrik_Ilves_2006.jpg/225px-Toomas_Hendrik_Ilves_2006.jpg


Estonians Withdrew from Finno-Ugrics

// Stalking out of the Khanty-Mansiysk congress

Dialogue in Khanty-Mansiysk turned out a scandal

Yesterday Estonia’s delegation headed by the country’s President Toomas Hendrik Ilves stalked out of the Fifth World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples, which was held in Khanty-Mansiysk. The demarche came in response to a speech of Russian Duma International Affairs Committee Chairman Konstantin Kosachev, who censured the national policy of the Estonian government. It was a development of a scandal that broke out a day before as Toomas Hendrik Ilves in a veiled form urged that the Finno-Ugric peoples of Russia gain independence.

The Fifth World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples, which opened in Khanty-Mansiysk on Saturday, summoned delegations of Russia’s all Finno-Ugric peoples as well as the Presidents of Hungary, Finland and Estonia László Sólyom, Tarja Halonen and Toomas Hendrik Ilves. On the threshold of the forum Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev received each of them. His talk with Ms Halonen, despite recent contradictions between Russia and Finland concerning timber supplies, appeared a meeting of old friends. Tarja Halonen told Dmitry Medvedev that she felt incredibly comfortable in Khanty-Mansiysk and invited him to a hard rock festival which is now held in Finland.

Dmitry Medvedev was so much delighted that he suggested they should set off for the festival immediately, but he had to meet with the Presidents of Hungary and Estonia first. For all that, the meeting of the Russian President with his Estonian opposite number Toomas Hendrik Ilves – one of the rare moments in the post-Soviet history as the leaders of the two states communicate – was held in quite a different atmosphere than the one with Tarja Halonen.

Mutual misunderstanding started with the language.

During the meeting with Dmitry Medvedev the Estonian president spoke English in spite of the protocol (the Presidents of Finland and Hungary had spoken their national languages). PR Chief of the Presidential Chancellery Toomas Sildam explained it by the fact that “there was no interpreter there.”

The Presidents of Russia and Estonia turned out to have spoken different languages. Sergey Prikhodko, Aide to the Russian President, had to acknowledge, “There have been much warmer meetings.” Mr Prikhodko told journalists that in the course of the talk President Ilves supported mitigation in the harsh rhetoric in the relations between the two states. President Medvedev replied that it’s Mr Ilves who often makes harsh statements regarding Russia, whereas he has never permitted himself to speak so about Estonia.

The opening of the forum and its further work caused even a bigger alienation of the parties. Opening the congress, Dmitry Medvedev claimed, “Russia became the initiator of the international Finno-Ugric movement.” He reminded that 1992 Russia hosted the First World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples. Speaking about the Russian community of Finno-Ugric peoples, Mr Medvedev condemned “political speculation” about their life. In his view, “only those who have a superficial image of the life of the Finno-Ugrics in our country engage in it, concealing at the same time the facts of galvanized assimilation in several European states.”

The address of President Ilves that followed the one of Mr Medvedev was the illustration of the approach the Russian leader warned against. The speech of the Estonian leader was not that diplomatic. Russia’s representatives saw a veiled appeal to a dissolution of the Russian Federation. Toomas Hendrik Ilves stated, “Freedom and democracy were our choice 150 years ago. Even poets didn’t dream about state independence at that time. Many Finno-Ugric peoples haven’t made their choice yet.”

Commenting on the address of the Estonian President, Russian Duma International Affairs Committee Chairman Konstantin Kosachev said that the speech “was discordant with what had been said before: the participants of the Congress didn’t make out what he was talking about.” According to Mr Kosachev, you could perceive an appeal to follow the “happy” way Estonia went. “It was an incorrect address,” the Committee Chairman concluded.

The scandal reached its climax during the speech of Mr Kosachev. He poured scorn on the Estonian government because of the national policy it pursued, and the European Parliament, which has often sided with Estonia. He said that as 2005 Chairman of the Russian Public Movement of the Mari people Vladimir Kozlov was attacked, the European Parliament demanded that Russia should conduct investigation of the matter, which was rendered a fact of discrimination of the Mari people in Russia. At the same time as Russians in Estonia were attacked because of their protests against the removal of the Bronze Soldier monument, and one of them (Dmitry Ganin) was murdered – the European Parliament didn’t urge the government of Estonia that it stop the discrimination of Russians. “You can’t address problems so that they could foster escalation of ethnic conflicts,” Mr Kosachev said.

Nevertheless, the demarche of the Estonian delegation happened after Mr Kosachev set off Moscow’s national policy against the measures undertaken by a number of post-Soviet republics. “Unlike the new states on the territory of the former Soviet Union, Russia has no need to pursue a special policy towards different ethnic groups,” said Konstantin Kosachev adding, “We have no problems with co-existence and good-neighborly relations of peoples of diverse nationalities.”

After these words the entire Estonian delegation left the hall, with those gathered there applauding. “I assess your applause as support of the negative estimate of the unfair policy of several the states of the Finno-Ugric world,” Konstantin Kosachev said in a triumphal tone.

The position of the Estonian delegation was supported by Estonian politicians. According to Sven Mikser, Chairman of the International Affairs Committee of the Estonian parliament Riigikogu, the demonstrative leaving “was a relevant response to the slanderous speech of Mr Kosachev.” “Russia lacks good intentions,” summed it up Sven Mikser in his interview to the television of Estonia.

Analysts in Tallinn point to the fact that the window of opportunities opened due to the Estonian leader’s visit to Khanty-Mansiysk, got nailed up.

beein Russian Finno-Ugr myself (Mordvin) i cant understand how the hell Estonia representing themselfs as Finno-Ugric,then Ests(German tribe) destroed last Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud ethics identitys long time ago...
Got a question to our western brothers - Finns and Hungarians - do you reconize Estonians as part of our Family?

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

I sure as hell don't. They may have some **** with Russia like us, but IMO that's our only similarity. They basically do whatever will piss Russia off more, and then run to NATO and the EU to save them.


Anyway, it looks like Russia-Finland relations are improving. I wonder if this means more Russian gear for the FDF.

[Kaapeli]

beein Russian Finno-Ugr myself (Mordvin) i cant understand how the hell Estonia representing themselfs as Finno-Ugric,then Ests(German tribe) destroed last Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud ethics identitys long time ago...
Got a question to our western brothers - Finns and Hungarians - do you reconize Estonians as part of our Family?

Finno-ugric is a language family. The Estonian language is member of the Finnic-branch.
Why on earth wouldn't they be considered Finno-ugric?

[Ordie]

Its all Greek to me.

What goes on at these events? Tuvan Throat singing or Mongolian wrestling?

[kosse]

Say what now?? :roll:

That article is nice piece of propaganda that goes to show that we Finns have always been good at pleasing the Russians. Estonians, on the other hand, don't bend over so easily and hence the harsh rhetoric pointed towards them. It has really nothing to do with Russian minority rights in Estonia. Their life is pretty nice there and they could apply and get Estonian citizenship whenever they wanted.

[asch]

That article is nice piece of propaganda that goes to show that we Finns have always been good at pleasing the Russians. Estonians, on the other hand, don't bend over so easily and hence the harsh rhetoric pointed towards them. It has really nothing to do with Russian minority rights in Estonia. Their life is pretty nice there and they could apply and get Estonian citizenship whenever they wanted.
you have issues.

[tommy00]

The speech of the Estonian leader was not that diplomatic. Russia’s representatives saw a veiled appeal to a dissolution of the Russian Federation. Toomas Hendrik Ilves stated, “Freedom and democracy were our choice 150 years ago. Even poets didn’t dream about state independence at that time. Many Finno-Ugric peoples haven’t made their choice yet.”

Nice example of black PR. Maybe people should read the whole speech, instead to rip one sentence out of the context.....

[Wall]

I wonder if this means more Russian gear for the FDF.
No russian gear for FDF in future.

[asch]

Nice example of black PR. Maybe people should read the whole speech, instead to rip one sentence out of the context.....
full text. take me 2 minutes of google-fu.

President of the Republic of Estonia at the 5th World Congress of Finno-ugric Peoples28.06.2008 June 28th, 2008 in Khanty-Mansiysk
No one is so smart as to dream up a detailed plan of social development in a way that it is immutable. True, that kind of planning has been tried repeatedly throughout history, and although always unsuccessfully, it will probably be tried again.
A plan is good, when its sustainability, the correctness of its chosen path is checked every day, when it is open to criticism and to change. This is the way free and democratic societies function, where those elected must ask the voter every day: am I doing the right thing? Am I going in the right direction, are my decisions understandable, do they satisfy you? This principle works just as well for communities smaller than the nation-state as well as for ones that are larger, such as international organizations.
Daily checks of our goals are also healthy for the world-wide finno-ugric community. And even if the questions might be unpleasant and the answers horrible. Without an internal audit it’s always even worse. Speaking here today I have to admit I do not have prepared answers for all finno-ugric peoples. I have my own personal answers, my own notions, my own preferences. Our joint answers can come only out of joint efforts, from co-operation.
So what is the big idea in finno-ugric common efforts? Are language and a language tree of people’s relatedness drawn long ago in the past enough to be the altar tryptich we bow down to? Is this enough to confirm our faith and provide the cement for remaining true to ourselves everywhere and for everyone? Can they be the inexhaustible source of pride?
Indeed, alongside the finno-ugric people, the indo-european, turkish-tatar, and other linguistic groups hold no language-centered world congresses to speak of. This is a solely Finno-Ugric distinction.
Language, and the preservation and development of languages, are truly important. But this can only occur successfully when we are engaged not in a narrow philological activity or garnishing for avcational ethnography, but a socially encompassing, in other words political, theme.
The three largest finno-ugric peoples have experience with this. After all, in the European Union, the supra-national organization to which Estonia, Finland, and Hungary belong, linguistic diversity, protection of languages and ensuring one’s ability to employ them at all official levels have been treated by all member nations as a political matter they have closely followedd.
The European Union umbrella has given the Estonian, Finnish, and Hungarian languages new guarantees they have never before possessed in their history. In no other continent exist such guarantees or no other international entity takes the health of languages as seriously.
We might thus ask: how can we put all finno-ugric languages under European Union protection to ensure their preservation and development?
In what I have said I have already drawn a line between those finno-ugric peoples who are in the EU and the rest, who aren’t. This distinction raises an important question. Do we draw any distinctions among finno-ugric peoples? Belonging to the EU as countries can be used merely as a formal distinction without implying judgement.
But there are also dangerous emotional, evaluative differences that may not be conducive to cooperation.
Should we and can we even classify our peoples as developed and undeveloped? As bigger and smaller brothers? As native and non-native? As those peoples with a written culture and those without one?
These are vague measures whose use won’t really lead anywhere, though it may boost some egos and sink others. They would seem to imply that some are given more rights and duties while others are freed of responsibility.
Consider indigenousness. Both Estonians and Finns consider themselves quite indigenous to their homes; Estonians have been tilling their fields on the shores of the Baltic for about 5000 years.
Yet we are not indigenous peoples in international parlance. Whenever business suit and cologne-wearing gentlemen in far off palaces and halls of government start talking about the worries of “indigenous peoples”, I always get the feeling that this talk is not fully sincere, but a myopic attempt to secure for the evening entertainment festooned in ethnic costume.
And “valuing indigenous cultures” is nothing but political cover to ensure market success for this branch of the entertainment industry. Or perhaps a belated apology and simulated activity to make good upon previous mistakes and maybe even crimes.
At the same time, if a still stateless people declares its indigenousness to be its sole remarkable characteristic, it thereby conveys a message that, in today’s world, calls upon others to bear responsibility for it. Presumably because of some historic injustice, as such a declaration always has a price tag attached.
If, however, we draw no distinctions, and do not create artificial or emotional divides among ourselves, cooperation will come to rest upon a strong foundation, upon common values. Hungarians, Finns and Estonians have chosen so-called European values, which today manifest themselves in the use of liberal democracy to order society.
Ask yourselves: does this choice necessarily presume an independent state? No it doesn’t. Back when these societies chose to be European, they had no states of their own and Europe, too, was very different from what it is today.
But freedom and democracy also make for good rules of the game in non-state structures. Freedom and democracy were our choice 150 years ago, when not even the poets dreamt of an Estonian state.
Many finno-ugric peoples have yet to make this choice. As a small aside it bears mentioning, particularly in light of the example of Estonia, that once you have tasted freedom, you will realize how much of it is sacrificied in the name of surviving or just ‘getting by’.
The European Union’s critics claim that Estonia, along with Finland and Hungary, have given away part of their sovereignty, their right to make free and independent choices. But, as detailed above, linguistic-cultural guarantees give back to us every day many times what we have given up.
Precisely through the European Union have the finno-ugric languages for the first time in their history developed a truly global reach. Our language rings in the meeting rooms of Brussels and Strasbourg, as I have myself repeatedly witnessed in my previous position as a member of European Parliament.
Here, in Khanty-Mansiysk, which borders Europe’s eastern geographic boundary, it may seem a bit odd to speak of Europe, the European Union, and European values. But still – freedom and democracy are universal values that acknowledge neither national nor geographic borders.
Europe’s understanding of diversity as a value applies to, and must apply to, everyone. Every individual, people, and culture is part of a global balance, an ecological balance, if you will. If one part, however small, is taken out of the system, lost, or extinguished, nobody can predict what kind of catastrophe this might bring about somewhere else.
It is said that the flapping wings of a butterfly can cause a hurricane. The finno-ugric people may indeed be small butterflies among all of humanity, but it is a concern for all of humanity to ensure that these butterflies not flap their wings in the wrong place the wrong time, in a way that might be fatal to those much larger than the butterflies.
The Czech writer Milan Kundera, writing in French, has an essay with a German title, Die Weltliteratur, („Global literature“ in English) in which he writes:
Small peoples differ from large nations not only on quantitative criteria, but also in something deeper. For small peoples existence is not self-evident, an indisputable fact, but a permanent question, a wager, a risk; they are always in a defensive position face to face with History, a force greater than they, which does not take them into account, which does not even notice them.
Kundera goes on to ask what would be the case if the icelandic Sagas had been written not in icelandic, a nation of 300 thousand, but in English.
Quote: „The names of the heroes in the Sagas would be as familiar to us as Tristan or don Quijote. Their esthetic particulars, their chronology and their imaginative intermediaries would have provoked all kinds of theories, people would have argued whether or not to consider them the first European novels.“
Most importantly, argues Kundera, they would have influenced living literature through the ages. But they did not, because there are too few icelanders. But does this mean that they are worth less? That in the pantheon of great creations of the human imagination, that they are of any lesser stature than the creations of large nations. To the contrary, even the smallest peoples can create the greatest literature.
This is why the ecology of cultures and peoples is an issue for all mankind. This is why the European Union cares.
The utility of global balance is well understood in the European Union. If the finno-ugric question has taken on a powerfully international dimension anywhere, it is there. The finno-ugric question has become an inexorable issue on the agenda of partnership talks between the European Union and Russia. Recently, the European Union appropriated 2.5 million Euros for the support of native peoples in Russia.
The European Union and its members are the motor that has driven the harmonization of protections for minority rights in Europe. And, we might now ask, would finno-ugric concerns be on the European agenda if Hungary, Finland, and Estonia were not members of the Union? Hardly. And herein lies the answer to why European values are also useful east of the Urals.
Much is happening on the field of Finno-ugria, of which account has been given and will be given during this Congress.
This is an opportunity primarily for governments, but also for civic organizations and every citizen.
I do not wish to deprive anyone of the joy of telling us what praiseworthy work he has done and intends to do henceforth. Nevertheless, let me emphasize that the more multifaceted the underlying basis of our cooperation, the more securely it rests on common basic values, the more assuredly the finno-ugric wagon will roll in the right direction.
As a start, freedom and democracy, and by extension Europe, are not at all bad basic values. And, to be honest, there’s really no alternative.

[armchairpundit]

Tarja Halonen told Dmitry Medvedev that she felt incredibly comfortable in Khanty-Mansiysk and invited him to a hard rock festival which is now held in Finland.

Dmitry Medvedev was so much delighted that he suggested they should set off for the festival immediately, but he had to meet with the Presidents of Hungary and Estonia firstSay what now?? :roll:
Heavy metal music, not granite and marble. :D

[kosse]

you have issues.

Really? I just read the speech and I still stand behind my notion that the Kommersant article is very biased. C'mon, you'd have to intepret the speech in a very paranoid way and take Ilves' words totally out of context to come to such conclusions as in the article.

Oh, here's the speech in a bit more readable form in case some find it hard to read pasted on the forum: http://halldor2.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/the-field-of-finno-ugria/

[tommy00]

full text. take me 2 minutes of google-fu.

Good. Now, where did you "saw a veiled appeal to a dissolution of the Russian Federation."...

[asch]

Good. Now, where did you "saw a veiled appeal to a dissolution of the Russian Federation."...
listen, i don't give a fvck about some stupid political games. really, no interest, sorry.
thing that bothers me is a clear hostility from most Estonian members of MPnet to everything Russian. yes, politicans have an agenda and always will be. but for me, my feeling about average Estonian or Finn or Monegask or whoever based on my relationship with their representatives such as you. how do you think i feel about you wanking in every thread "Russia suck!"? no, i have no problem with people who don't like me, clear healthy hate, as i hear, leads to many wonderful discoveries, but i will think about you and your nation judging by your own posts. or, for example, articles in your press about Russia. do they ever been positive? hell no.
sorry, no sympathy for this Ilves guy.

[kalkun]

thing that bothers me is a clear hostility from most Estonian members of MPnet to everything Russian. but for me, my feeling about average Estonian or Finn or Monegask or whoever based on my relationship with their representatives such as you. how do you think i feel about you wanking in every thread "Russia suck!"?

Sorry, but I haven't seen those every thread where Estonians are wanking around.For example Russian photos thread looks pretty clean.
Secondly, there can't be no discussion, why? Last time I said something I was told that I am nazi and should put a nazi march on.
And related to this topic: Estonians are Finnic people speaking Finno-Ugric.
PS. Not another flame sh!t, OK?

[MZKT]

Well, calls for separatism isn't something welcomed from an invited guest, especially in a multi-ethhnic country with some painful experiences in this area.
This Ilves' sentence was either very stupid or very provocative. In any context.

[tommy00]

how do you think i feel about you wanking in every thread "Russia suck!"? no, i have no problem with people who don't like me, clear healthy hate

Look, i`vve been here for a while, but haven`t posted that much, so be so kind and show me proof to your words....


thing that bothers me is a clear hostility from most Estonian members of MPnet to everything Russian

and why is it that if someone(doesen`t matter which nationality) opposite the official "Kreml" politics, he will be stamped as anti-Russian or Russophobe or whatever...
Kind a like-"if you not with Bush, then you not a patriot"
And you know Asch, even Lenin said-"a good communist is a objective one"

for example, articles in your press about Russia. do they ever been positive? hell no.

I could ask from you the same thing....

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

No russian gear for FDF in future.
You never know. Last I checked, Finland doesn't produce it's own PKMs, so if there ever was to be a complete change over from the KK 62s, we'd have to buy them from Russia. But that's ultimately a small matter, and most of the gear will come from Western sources, as Finland continues to strengthen its ties with the West, but we could still see some Russian gear in the FDF ranks.

[Somalimafia]

Well, calls for separatism isn't something welcomed from an invited guest, especially in a multi-ethhnic country with some painful experiences in this area.
This Ilves' sentence was either very stupid or very provocative. In any context.

He was calling for a republic for them inside the Russian federation. Just like the rest of the republics that make up the federation. Not an independent nation.

[Somalimafia]

You never know. Last I checked, Finland doesn't produce it's own PKMs, so if there ever was to be a complete change over from the KK 62s, we'd have to buy them from Russia. But that's ultimately a small matter, and most of the gear will come from Western sources, as Finland continues to strengthen its ties with the West, but we could still see some Russian gear in the FDF ranks.

IIRC you are not even from Finland.

We never produced PKM's and never will. We did not even buy them nor did we want them. We got them for free as the standard export equipment with IFV's and tanks and found them a suitable replacement for the KvKK, which wasnt that great to begin with. However, if such a scenario came up that we would need more of them, we would do a modernized and more accurate version of it, just like the RK. Certainly not buy, since during time of crisis, "the threat is always from the east". Right now, about the only major Russian gear we have is the BUK M1 and even that is going to be replaced very soon. Rest are old soviet and they are only around, because they are conscript-proof and there is really nothing quite like it around. However, all new purchases will be from the west or self built. At the Armoured Brigade, the ol' soviet war machines (1S2, 2S5, BMP-2, MT-LB) are drawing their last breaths in terms of being almost completely worn out. At least that's what the staff are cursing all the time.

I keep dreaming of MG4's and modified licence built 7.62/5.56 G36's.

[Flamming_Python]

He was calling for a republic for them inside the Russian federation. Just like the rest of the republics that make up the federation. Not an independent nation.

What makes you think they don't have a republic? Or in fact several; last time I checked Karelia, Komi, Mari El (where in fact the congress was held), Mordovia & Udmurtia were all Finno-Ugric republics in the Russian Federation, not to mention the Khanty-Mansi and Yamalo-Nenets autonomous districts.

[Igor01]

He was calling for a republic for them inside the Russian federation. Just like the rest of the republics that make up the federation. Not an independent nation.

I can only imagine the outrage of Estonian officials should Russian President suggest that ethnic Russians in Estonia require a republic to protect their language and culture. Oh, those meddling, imperialist, provocateur Russians! Or even if he should suggest that ethnic Russians who were born in Estonia before 1990 and their children be given Estonian citizenship? Now that would be an outrageous idea p-)

Overall, the speech is full of paternizing, arrogant allusions that Estonia is in the position to mentor and show the light to the yet unenlightened Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia. The constant references to European Union are sickening too considering the fact the Estonian President unsermoniously awarded himself the right to speak on the behalf of the EU.

This seems to be the modus operandi for some ex-Soviet republics and some former Warsaw pact members, they arrongantly pontificate on how Russia should conduct its affairs and always drag the EU or NATO into anything and everything, while neither EU nor NATO couldn't give a flying frack about their petty grievances and delusions of grandeur. In the end, they end up being an irritant to Russia and a pain in the a$$ for Old Europe. I can't wait for such a time when this idiotic and shameful PR is behind us.

[Basillicus]

I keep dreaming of MG4's and modified licence built 7.62/5.56 G36's.

Yes, they would be nice. I just hope someone would come up with better cartridge than 7.62 or 5.56 NATO before we start buying anything. IMO there's no point changing from 7.62x39 to either of those as there isn't much improvement; the first one is obsolete and the other is hardly optimal cartridge either.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

IIRC you are not even from Finland.
I'm Finnish, and have to do the service. I've never been there beyond vacations unfortunately, since my mom moved to America with my dad before I was born.


We never produced PKM's and never will. We did not even buy them nor did we want them. We got them for free as the standard export equipment with IFV's and tanks and found them a suitable replacement for the KvKK, which wasnt that great to begin with. However, if such a scenario came up that we would need more of them, we would do a modernized and more accurate version of it, just like the RK. Certainly not buy, since during time of crisis, "the threat is always from the east". Right now, about the only major Russian gear we have is the BUK M1 and even that is going to be replaced very soon. Rest are old soviet and they are only around, because they are conscript-proof and there is really nothing quite like it around. However, all new purchases will be from the west or self built. At the Armoured Brigade, the ol' soviet war machines (1S2, 2S5, BMP-2, MT-LB) are drawing their last breaths in terms of being almost completely worn out. At least that's what the staff are cursing all the time.
Yes, the old Soviet gear should go. Out with the old, in with the new. If Finland ever did go to war with Russia, more advanced equipment would be most definitely be a big help. And I guess a modified PKM would be the best choice in the long run, but it would take longer than just buying an new batch.


I keep dreaming of MG4's and modified licence built 7.62/5.56 G36's.
That would indeed be nice. The G36 is already in service with the Border Guard IIRC, so if they give it nothing but praise the G36 might be looked at as a replacement for the Rk.

[Alexandr]

Noot to feed flame,just realy interesting - who is today Estonia friends and allies?
Yeah i know about NATO and EU,but i mean who REALY supports them in theyr politics as indipendent state,not as a part of block,exept of Latvia and USA?
Is that true,that Finland have better relations with us,than with Estonia?

[Mamont]

Noot to feed flame,just realy interesting - who is today Estonia friends and allies? Yeah i know about NATO and EU,but i mean who REALY supports them in theyr politics as indipendent state,not as a part of block,exept of Latvia and USA?You forgot Georgia. :)


Is that true,that Finland have better relations with us,than with Estonia?Quite possible. At least there are fewer tensions between Finland and Russia on the screen. Who knows what's going on behind it.

[Alexandr]

Please elaborate, what do you mean with "german tribe" and "Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud ethics identitys long time ago"???



Ests are german tribe,firstly mixed with finno-ugric ethnics and dominated over them lately with resepted language.
And Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud - ethics that used to have place in Estonia,had been trashed in 1920s-1940s as "untermenshes" ,or in modern ex-soviet baltic term - "people with no rigths to sitizenship"

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Noot to feed flame,just realy interesting - who is today Estonia friends and allies?
Yeah i know about NATO and EU,but i mean who REALY supports them in theyr politics as indipendent state,not as a part of block,exept of Latvia and USA?
Is that true,that Finland have better relations with us,than with Estonia?
Finland is on pretty good terms with everybody.


Also, just because one country's demographic maybe related to another's, that doesn't necessarily mean they will get along well.

[Wall]

Maybe I just dont know anything about politics, but if someone says that Finland have "bad" relationships with Russia, i find it very overstated.
Dunno about Estonia-Russia relationships, but i think that Finland has OK / good relationships with Russia..

[kosse]

I'm Finnish, and have to do the service. I've never been there beyond vacations unfortunately, since my mom moved to America with my dad before I was born.

You might be on paper but I don't even consider you a Finn and I find it insulting when someone who was born and has lived his whole life in some other country speaks for the Finns here using "we". And I'd keep those comments about Estonians also to yourself..in fact most Finns have more in common with Estonians than they will ever have with you.

You're of the same sort as the True Russian Soviet fanboy club (tm) around here that posts from US and thinks they are so Russian when in fact they are Americans living in a fantasy world. Oh, and I think you are better off in US army. That's your real home country after all.

[Kaapeli]

Ests are german tribe,firstly mixed with finno-ugric ethnics and dominated over them lately with resepted language.
And Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud - ethics that used to have place in Estonia,had been trashed in 1920s-1940s as "untermenshes" ,or in modern ex-soviet baltic term - "people with no rigths to sitizenship"

I've looked into the history of Estonia and it's people (including the Finno-ugric tribe Aestii that the name Estonia is derived from) and I have found no mention of the things you describe.
Are you sure it's not old USSR propaganda? That stuff is of very questionable scientific merit.

[Basillicus]

AFAIK we have very deep relationship with the Estonians, after all they are pretty close to us ethnically etc. But we don't support their somewhat hostile policy towards Russia and on the other hand close ties with the USA and NATO. In any case our relationship towards Russia will always be strickly business. With Estonia we are kind of the same family and while we might not agree with everything we are still in the same boat.

Kosse has a harsh way of saying things but I think he has a point somewhere in there. A lot of Americans (i.e. people who have lived most of their lives in the USA) have a sort of overinflated idea of their ethnic/whatever backround, and that sometimes shows as overzealous comments in this kind of threads. You might be partially Finnish depending how well you know the culture, how often you have visited the country etc. but you'll never be fully that unless you have lived most or at least a significant part of your life here. Doing stuff like studying here or serving in the military will get you significantly closer to your roots, but you should still be careful about talking on behalf of people who have actually lived their whole lives in here rather than in the USA.

[tommy00]

Noot to feed flame,just realy interesting - who is today Estonia friends and allies?

You know, you should be more worried about who is todays Russian friends and allies-Batka Luka, Ahmadinejad, Chavez,Kim Jong...and so long....not very encouraging list, is`nt it...
So, don`t worry about us,we keep are friends close,..(are enemys even closer..;).....)

And to Igor01,...Ilves is a bit arrogant fellow, i give you that, but still, after reeding his speech many times ,i still couldn`t find there that...

Overall, the speech is full of paternizing, arrogant allusions that Estonia is in the position to mentor and show the light to the yet unenlightened Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia. The constant references to European Union are sickening too considering the fact the Estonian President unsermoniously awarded himself the right to speak on the behalf of the EU.

no need to be oversensitive....:)

[kalkun]

Wth, Setos destroyed? They live both in south-eastern Estonia (Setomaa) and in Pskov oblast. And their language Seto exist pretty well.

http://www.setomaa.ee/index.php?id=c4ca4238a0b923820dcc509a6f75849b
All sorts of things related to Setos http://www.seto.ee/

[asch]

Look, i`vve been here for a while, but haven`t posted that much, so be so kind and show me proof to your words....
your post history. free to check to everyone.

and why is it that if someone(doesen`t matter which nationality) opposite the official "Kreml" politics, he will be stamped as anti-Russian or Russophobe or whatever...
politics is politics, aside them, i have an impression that if you don't like news from us, it's always immediately become "Kreml politics" whatever it means.

Kind a like-"if you not with Bush, then you not a patriot"
And you know Asch, even Lenin said-"a good communist is a objective one"
sorry, i'm not on short foot with communists and Lenin rhetorics. still this impression is childish, although it have some truth in it (can be applied to certain percent to any "country club" here).

I could ask from you the same thing....
man, we don't playing "same to you" games here (maybe you noticed that no flaming speeches from me in this thread). if you want to change the world - begin from yourself. for me things changed long time ago from pissing contest (arrogant nazi scum vs stupid untermensch bloody idiotic barbarians) to objective (at least i try) point of view. i recommend to taste it yourself.

p.s. i have a question. i know a couple of Estonians (a pair of couples, to be honest) - absolutely amazing pair from Tartu (now friends of my family), free, open people who enjoys their life and overall awesome, and middle-age family of three (mother-father-daughter), who as nazist as some of our silly skinheads be, always ready to demonstrate their "superiority" - which on turn become simply arrogance.
what do you think how much any of them influence public opinion about Estonians here?

peace.

[Sergei]

You know, you should be more worried about who is todays Russian friends and allies-Batka Luka, Ahmadinejad, Chavez,Kim Jong...and so long....not very encouraging list, is`nt it...
So, don`t worry about us,we keep are friends close,..(are enemys even closer..;).....)



Russia has two friends - its Army and Navy, well three now including "Topols".

You have "friends" who find you useful for the time being, as you might find useful a prostitute when you have a funny feeling in your private parts. Once the usefullness is gone your attitude towards Russia will be remembered and let's see where your "friends" will be when estonian economy goes down.

Remember the "Bronze Soldier"? He hasn't spoken his last word yet.

[Kaapeli]

Remember the "Bronze Soldier"? He hasn't spoken his last word yet.

The war memorial was very respectfully moved to a better place as were the remains buried there. What's the problem?

And had Russia moved a foreign war memorial (are there even any?) I bet you'd be screaming here how Russia can do whatever it wants.

Here it is in it's new and more suitable place:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn%2C_2007.jpg

[tommy00]

Oh, what a dreamworld you are living, Serjozka, really.....:(

[Mamont]

You have "friends" who find you useful for the time being, as you might find useful a prostitute when you have a funny feeling in your private parts. Jeez, don't be so negative. Of course people are responcible for the goverment they've elected, but it's a mistake to mix people and a goverment. Our own country is a good example.


The war memorial was very respectfully moved to a better place as were the remains buried there. What's the problem?Dude, it's not the relocation itself that was the problem, it's the words of the politicians that were spoken about the fallen and veterans, and general attitude toward history of WW2 in Estonia.

[Mamont]

Theres a reason to the Estonians attitude agains te Soviets. I might have something to do with the Soviets invading their country, killing, and deportations of tens of thousands of people etc. The same things happened to Ingrians, Karelians and other Finnic peoples too.Don't start this sh*t again.

[Afro-European]

Theres a reason to the Estonians attitude agains te Soviets. I might have something to do with the Soviets invading their country, killing, and deportations of tens of thousands of people etc. The same things happened to Ingrians, Karelians and other Finnic peoples too.
Isn't there a difference between Soviet Union and Russia?
Why should Russia today pay for what Stalin(Georgian),Khrushchev(Ukrainian),Brezhnev(Ukrainian) have done?

[Basillicus]

Isn't there a difference between Soviet Union and Russia?
Why should Russia today pay for what Stalin(Georgian),Khrushchev(Ukrainian),Brezhnev(Ukrainian) have done?

Why do the Russians care about a monument of a Soviet soldier and have big victory day parades if they have nothing to do with Soviet Union? ;)

[Afro-European]

Why do the Russians care about a monument of a Soviet soldier and have big victory day parades if they have nothing to do with Soviet Union? ;)
Good point.What do you want Russia to pay for the Soviet "occupation"?;)

[tommy00]

Moving way off the topic,...let`s stop this....

[Codazo]

The war memorial was very respectfully moved to a better place as were the remains buried there. What's the problem?
It was not moved respectfully!:bash:

[Kaapeli]

It was not moved respectfully!:bash:

Can you explain why?

The remains were dug up behind covers and burried honorably in a cemetary with the utmost respect that any deceased deserve. The memorial monument was also moved in perfect condition to it's new place the cemetary.
The new resting place looks beautiful and well kept. The remains that could be identified were given to their Russian relatives for reburial.

Only thing disrespecful about the operation were the idiots who started a riot there.

The Estonians took care of the situation better than Russians have done with some of their own monuments in Russia. One Russian war memorial was destroyed by the Russian authorities instead of moved to a new place.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

You might be on paper but I don't even consider you a Finn and I find it insulting when someone who was born and has lived his whole life in some other country speaks for the Finns here using "we". And I'd keep those comments about Estonians also to yourself..in fact most Finns have more in common with Estonians than they will ever have with you.
Fine, I apologize and you're entitled to your opinions. My grandfather who fought against the Soviets might have something to say about that, but w/e let's not honor heritage right?


You're of the same sort as the True Russian Soviet fanboy club (tm) around here that posts from US and thinks they are so Russian when in fact they are Americans living in a fantasy world. Oh, and I think you are better off in US army. That's your real home country after all.
Except I don't love or hate Russia. I just don't like how people love to ignore how America is the same as Russia.

[kosse]

Fine, I apologize and you're entitled to your opinions. My grandfather who fought against the Soviets might have something to say about that, but w/e let's not honor heritage right?

While I respect your granpa's sacrifice you are not him and what he did or did not do don't make you any more finn. Basillicus put it quite nicely about the overinflated significance of previous generations' background. Let's leave it at that.


Except I don't love or hate Russia. I just don't like how people love to ignore how America is the same as Russia.I'm not sure if I understand this. Could you clarify?

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

While I respect your granpa's sacrifice you are not him and what he did or did not do don't make you any more finn. Basillicus put it quite nicely about the overinflated significance of previous generations' background. Let's leave it at that.
Alright then, I'm sorry for overstepping my boundaries. Although I never did say "we Finns" in my posts, I referred to myself. The only time I said we I was referring to the world at large. Not that it really matters, I get your point and have learned my lesson.


I'm not sure if I understand this. Could you clarify?
EDIT: nvm, I just realized you were saying I was as inexperienced on the subject as the American Soviets, not that I was a Soviet fanboy. Sorry for the confusion.

[Vympel]

Can you explain why?


Estonians are really slow as jokes says. :D all normal Baltic countries removed Soviet monuments back to 91-93. And funny, why bronze soldier was moved not after ceremony but before? EEeeeestooonnniaaaa?

[Flamming_Python]

Can you explain why?

The remains were dug up behind covers and burried honorably in a cemetary with the utmost respect that any deceased deserve. The memorial monument was also moved in perfect condition to it's new place the cemetary.
The new resting place looks beautiful and well kept. The remains that could be identified were given to their Russian relatives for reburial.

Only thing disrespecful about the operation were the idiots who started a riot there.

The Estonians took care of the situation better than Russians have done with some of their own monuments in Russia. One Russian war memorial was destroyed by the Russian authorities instead of moved to a new place.

Quite true, but hardly the point. It was more the symbolic factor of the move; why do you think it was done so soon before May 9th? The Russians in the country felt that the Estonian government did this purposely to disrespect them, that it takes no consideration of their sensitivities. The Estonian government did it's best to pretend that nothing happened by sprucing up the new memorial real nice, and flipping the attention back on Russia with accusations of cyber-attacks and Kremlin propaganda.

Organisations in Russia may have fanned the flames, but the core of the matter was back in Estonia. How can a people expect to view their government as legitimate if it completely ignores their interests and makes them feel unwelcome in their own country in which they were born in? How old do you think the rioters were, 40-60 year olds who came to Estonia for work back in the days of the USSR? I'm sure there were plenty of opportunists and looters among them, like in any situations of chaos and disorder, but you cannot expect any amount of masterful Western PR tactics will convince the people that they weren't just deeply disrespected and insulted. The culmination of 17 years of discrimination and ethnic nationalism caused a riot amongst the minority... big surprise there.

[Flamming_Python]

listen, i don't give a fvck about some stupid political games. really, no interest, sorry.
thing that bothers me is a clear hostility from most Estonian members of MPnet to everything Russian. yes, politicans have an agenda and always will be. but for me, my feeling about average Estonian or Finn or Monegask or whoever based on my relationship with their representatives such as you. how do you think i feel about you wanking in every thread "Russia suck!"? no, i have no problem with people who don't like me, clear healthy hate, as i hear, leads to many wonderful discoveries, but i will think about you and your nation judging by your own posts. or, for example, articles in your press about Russia. do they ever been positive? hell no.
sorry, no sympathy for this Ilves guy.

You're right its relations between the people not the countries that matter. But judging by internet characters is perhaps not the best way to go about it; needless to say mp.net by & large only represents certain segments of the population.

In real life for example I have discovered that Lithuanians generally get on well with Russians, often speak Russian and are not nearly as Russophobic as some posts on mp.net suggest (lightfire...p-)).

[Vympel]

In real life for example I have discovered that Lithuanians generally get on well with Russians,
Wrong

often speak Russian
nearly correct, but still wrong

[Sergei]

Jeez, don't be so negative. Of course people are responcible for the goverment they've elected, but it's a mistake to mix people and a goverment. Our own country is a good example.


You and I both know this situation in Ukraine is temporary until Washington "obkom" runs out of money to support "rotten oranges" in Ukraine.
They already ask Russia to invest into US economy and now this Kissinger announcement today to leave Russia alone and don't meddle into its nearby politics.

Well let's see, the fun is just beginning. Especially when Estonia's economy is going to tank in the nearest half year.

[Sergei]

Why do the Russians care about a monument of a Soviet soldier and have big victory day parades if they have nothing to do with Soviet Union? ;)

Why do you think only Russians care?
Just because our "bought and paid for leader" USchenko is so used to parade under SS banner doesn't mean people from Ukraine are not condemning that the statue and remains of soldiers (ukrainian included) were removed.

[kosse]

Well let's see, the fun is just beginning. Especially when Estonia's economy is going to tank in the nearest half year.

Why's that? I thought they were doing pretty well with last year's economic growth at 7-8% or something like that. Anyway, we'll see after 6 months :)

[Sergei]

Why's that? I thought they were doing pretty well with last year's economic growth at 7-8% or something like that. Anyway, we'll see after 6 months :)

Last year 7-8%

This year 0,5% for first half of the year, and this is just the beginning because the banks are just beginning to roll off the credit carpet.

[kalkun]

Yeah we already supposed to bankrupt at the beginning of 90's, that didn't happen, then Russia accused Estonia in supporting IRA, flooding Russia with spies, sent women snipers to Chechnya and now we're nazis let's see what's next. :lol:

[Sergei]

Yeah we already supposed to bankrupt at the beginning of 90's, that didn't happen, then Russia accused Estonia in supporting IRA, flooding Russia with spies, sent women snipers to Chechnya and now we're nazis let's see what's next. :lol:

Same situation is happening in Ukraine, as a matter of fact.
The banks are now raising credit rates and forcing even biggest percentage on present borrowers. Sucks to have a credit these days.
The so-called "growth" in all former Soviet republics is achieved through extensive money lending only. Until now.

[Murus]

beein Russian Finno-Ugr myself (Mordvin) i cant understand how the hell Estonia representing themselfs as Finno-Ugric,then Ests(German tribe) destroed last Setos,Votes,Merya,Chud ethics identitys long time ago...
Got a question to our western brothers - Finns and Hungarians - do you reconize Estonians as part of our Family?

Estonians are part in the Finno-Ugr language family. That is a fact.
Some Hungarian parties made even a statemant about they solidarity for Estonia.

[Kilgor]

Same situation is happening in Ukraine, as a matter of fact.
The banks are now raising credit rates and forcing even biggest percentage on present borrowers. Sucks to have a credit these days.
The so-called "growth" in all former Soviet republics is achieved through extensive money lending only. Until now.

What do you think has fuelled the growth in the rest of the world the last decades ?

[Kaapeli]

Why do you think only Russians care?
Just because our "bought and paid for leader" USchenko is so used to parade under SS banner doesn't mean people from Ukraine are not condemning that the statue and remains of soldiers (ukrainian included) were removed.

For the third time the statue was not removed. It was moved to a war cemetary.

See there it is with flowers and everything:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Bronze_Soldier%2C_27_May_2007%2C_portrait.jpg

No one in their right mind see a problem with that. I wouldn't if it was our memorial.
But for ultranationalists it was never about the statue was it (they don't even seem know or care what happened to it). They just need "outsiders" to direct their hatred at and the statue made a perfect excuse to make Estonia a target.

[ostius]

I can only imagine the outrage of Estonian officials should Russian President suggest that ethnic Russians in Estonia require a republic to protect their language and culture. Oh, those meddling, imperialist, provocateur Russians! Or even if he should suggest that ethnic Russians who were born in Estonia before 1990 and their children be given Estonian citizenship? Now that would be an outrageous idea p-)

This is not “outrageous idea”, it is reality. If child is born in Estonia, he/she has a right to have Estonian citizenship… if parents want so. See: no language test, no constitution exam!

Look, fellows, I have read lot of “interesting” rumors and gossips Russians talking about Estonia. For example newspaper “Izvestia” wrote that during Soviet period metro was built in Tallinn. There are no metro in whole Estonia! Where they get all this ridiculous disinformation?

Perhaps I should remind you Radio Armenia anecdote?
Question: “What is the main difference between soviet newspapers “Pravda” (The Truth) and “Izvestia” (The News)?
Radio Armenia: “V “Pravdu” net izvestii I v “Izvestii” net pravdu” (There are no news in The Truth and there are no truth in The News)

:-)

[Codazo]

Can you explain why?

The remains were dug up behind covers and burried honorably in a cemetary with the utmost respect that any deceased deserve. The memorial monument was also moved in perfect condition to it's new place the cemetary.
The new resting place looks beautiful and well kept. The remains that could be identified were given to their Russian relatives for reburial.

Only thing disrespecful about the operation were the idiots who started a riot there.

The Estonians took care of the situation better than Russians have done with some of their own monuments in Russia. One Russian war memorial was destroyed by the Russian authorities instead of moved to a new place.
what about comments from our PM about the dead that were in the grave? don't give me that kanal kaks speach ...

[Igor01]

This is not “outrageous idea”, it is reality. If child is born in Estonia, he/she has a right to have Estonian citizenship… if parents want so. See: no language test, no constitution exam!

Thanks for the info. I have seen some evidence to the contrary, like this article (http://www.coe.int/t/commissioner/Viewpoints/080609_en.asp#(2))for example from the Council of Europe Commissioner for the Human Rights. Here's an except:


For instance, large numbers of residents, including children, remain non-citizens in Latvia and Estonia. I have recommended that steps be taken to grant citizenship automatically to children and to relieve older people from the requirement to go through the tests for naturalisation(2) (http://www.coe.int/t/commissioner/Viewpoints/080609_en.asp#(2)).

Having read your post I've found several references to a change in Estonia's citizenship laws, apparently an amendment was made in 1998 that grants children born in Estonia after 1992 an automatic right to citizenship if both parents are stateless and have resided in Estonia for at least 5 years. If that indeed is the case than what is the Council of Europe on about?

[Flamming_Python]

Perhaps I should remind you Radio Armenia anecdote?
Question: “What is the main difference between soviet newspapers “Pravda” (The Truth) and “Izvestia” (The News)?
Radio Armenia: “V “Pravdu” net izvestii I v “Izvestii” net pravdu” (There are no news in The Truth and there are no truth in The News)

:-)

That must be about the billionth time I heard you baltics make that same joke. While we are on the subject of the USSR of 30 years ago, i'll teach you another joke you can tell to clueless Westerners about modern Russia:

'We pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us!'

[Flamming_Python]

What do you think has fuelled the growth in the rest of the world the last decades ?

Production, investment, industry, etc...

Eastern Europe had just about all of their heavy industry closed down, less profitable service industry developed, and were then given free tickets to live in the Western paradise.

[Flamming_Python]

Also funny how every Esti defender here fails to mention the discriminatory and anti-democratic policies practised by both the Estonian and Latvian states. Namely that 'Russian'/'Russian-speaking' parties are not allowed from participating in ruling parliamentry coalitions.

[tommy00]

Also funny how every Esti defender here fails to mention the discriminatory and anti-democratic policies practised by both the Estonian and Latvian states. Namely that 'Russian'/'Russian-speaking' parties are not allowed from participating in ruling parliamentry coalitions.

What are you, stupid or what....????
There aren`t any "Russian" party in parliament.(first)
And how should someone understand "'Russian-speaking' parties are not ALLOWED from participating in ruling parliamentry coalitions."

The partys who want to cooperat and have enough votes will form a ruling coalition...

[NowPlaying]

Isn't there a difference between Soviet Union and Russia?
Why should Russia today pay for what Stalin(Georgian),Khrushchev(Ukrainian),Brezhnev(Ukrainian) have done?

Why should today's Germany pay for Hitler crimes? Well, they ARE paying.


Namely that 'Russian'/'Russian-speaking' parties are not allowed from participating in ruling parliamentry coalitions.

"Russian" parties are "not allowed" because majority of population (latvians/estonians) don't want to see them in government. That would be a political suicide for "latvian" party to cooperate with "russian" party to form a government. That is how democracy works. Dictatorship of the majority.

[PeterRJG]

Why should today's Germany pay for Hitler crimes? Well, they ARE paying.



They pay because they lost. War reparations are invariably paid by the losing side. The Soviet Union, Stalin and all, actually won in WW2...

Just thought I'd butt into this lovely little discourse and point that out.

[Alexandr]

This tread goes wrong,i didnt mean to make it "Russian-Estonian bites" when started it,for me more interesting place and future of Estonia in modern multi-polar world.Keep it away from simlple virtual @ss-kicking please.

[Igor01]

Why should today's Germany pay for Hitler crimes? Well, they ARE paying.

Ethnic Russians or Soviets if you will were not benefitting from Communist rule in USSR and Eastern Europe, while Germans (while paying the price in human lives of course) were the beneficiaries of the Nazi conquest of Lebensraum for the Master Race. Ethnic Russians (and East Ukrainians who are very close in language and culture) were by far the most numerous victims of the Soviet regime.

The whole matter of alleged Russian Federation responsibility for whatever USSR may or may not have done is a nonsensical farce. Blaming Russia is convenient and strikes the right cord in a Baltic psyche, but going that route can bring up all kinds of inconvenient luggage, like the role of Latvian Riflemen in the Revolution and the Red Terror for example, or the enthusiastic cooperation with the Nazi's, mass executions and "retaliation actions" in Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia resulting in tens of thousands of victims. Or what about the zeal of the Estonian Selbstschutz that turned Estonia completely "Judenfrei" before any other country conquered by Nazis could claim that title.

[tommy00]

Ethnic Russians (and East Ukrainians who are very close in language and culture) were by far the most numerous victims of the Soviet regime.

That is true and therefore it is hard to understand why are these nations the most eager defenders of a Soviet regime(at least here definitely)....???

[Alexandr]

That is true and therefore it is hard to understand why are these nations the most eager defenders of a Soviet regime(at least here definitely)....???

becouse they didnot separate regime from Motherland...fight for country as it was.Can you betray leader and at same time do not betray country?I doubdt it.

[tommy00]

becouse they didnot separate regime from Motherland...fight for country as it was.Can you betray leader and at same time do not betray country?I doubdt it.

In wartime i understand, but before and after....
Does that mean if i don`t support our primeminister Ansip, then i betray my country......
Can`t be that simple...

[Alexandr]

In wartime i understand, but before and after....
Does that mean if i don`t support our primeminister Ansip, then i betray my country......
Can`t be that simple...

Well,i think there a clear difference beetwen "not support" and "fight against with weapons in hands".I think you should understand that as man of a county that been 400 years under ocupation before "russkies ocupators " comes (hello,Livonia,Sweden and Denmark)

[ViruWiking]

Hello Alexandr.
I'm a new member on this forom, i'm estonian.
So let's try to have a talk without the aggression


Well,i think there a clear difference beetwen "not support" and "fight against with weapons in hands".I think you should understand that as man of a county that been 400 years under ocupation before "russkies ocupators " comes (hello,Livonia,Sweden and Denmark)

Firstly: i do not understand why only you (russians) so painfully take the Term " ocupation " when we are speaking about invasion of any country in another one. The Germany was ocuped the France, USA recognized todays ocupation of Irac, becouse the presence of it's force in that country is out of local population's controll.
So it is just an political/tactical term (not a insult) and it works independently on that, if do you like this word or no.

Ok, let us to use another word - colonisation for ex.
So mangols were colonisating the Russia for a long time.
Is talking about it - a some kinde of "mongolofoby" ? :)
Not, that is just a historic fact ! So please do not be a hurt when listen the same facts about you country.
You always insist that you had an EMPIRE !, but this automaticly considers the colonization of the strange territories.

Take this word easy, we do not try to kik you, we just
talk about facts.

Secondary: you are right about another colonizators of our land: Livonia (our fino-ugric brothers :) ), Sweden, Denmark....and you also forgot the Germans and our todays very close friends - Lithuanians. All they and Russia were colonizators for us.
One good question: - then why today Estonia has so bad relations with Russia only ???
The answer is: becouse all communicate with us like with the partner, friend. Nobody pretends at our right to exist as a independent country and only one naber continues to relate to us as to its colony, without being troubled when calling us (халопы, беглые рабы и т.д.)

I hope that one day we will can to be a friends, being free of numerous stupid stereotyps...but today we also have to talk for get it.

[Alexandr]

One good question: - then why today Estonia has so bad relations with Russia only ???
The answer is: becouse all communicate with us like with the partner, friend.

They communicate with you like partners becouse their ethnic relatives not presented in Estionia with huge population.There will be no problems today at all beetwen us if there would not exist such term as "people with no vote rights" wich exist only to russians (counting people who born there) with cap of naturalisation 5 000 per year.
they same EU sitizens,for whole Europe they equal as Estonians,but somhow in middle of modern democratic world heres new Aparteid,separating rights of people by ethnic.
Cant you agree this is wrong?

[Wojtop]

Ethnic Russians or Soviets if you will were not benefitting from Communist rule in USSR and Eastern Europe, while Germans (while paying the price in human lives of course) were the beneficiaries of the Nazi conquest of Lebensraum for the Master Race.

That's a lie. Several thousands of trains with Polish property have been sent to Soviet Union in 1945-1947 and never came back. Most of these were dismantled factories, machinery, mineral resources, furniture, food. Poland has been plundered by Soviets same or more than by Germany. That theft was 100% legal as Polish communist governement was forced to sign an agreement about it. I guess these machines and factories were used to produce stuff for SU citizens. Apart of that Poles were robbed by Russian soldiers (mostly officers) against Stalin's orders. I am greatful to SU and Russians for liberating Poland from horrible German occupation but why they had to rob it from anything valuable afterwards and still deny it 60 years later?
My best toys were bought in Moscow by my father, even if produced in Poland. In Poland these were unavailable, while in Moscow - no problem. That's about SU and its citizens not profiting on it's sattelites in 70s and 80s of XX century.


Ethnic Russians (and East Ukrainians who are very close in language and culture) were by far the most numerous victims of the Soviet regime.
Can't be denied. You know how it hurts to suffer and shoudn't be surprised that other nations may have bad feelings about ethnic Russians who ruled USSR. Note that majority of Poles have nothing against average Russians, they dislike and distrust Russian authorities and Russian state.

[kosse]

^ In addition, ethnic Russians got to exploit (and still do) the "Lebensraum" taken from Finland in aggression. If that's not benefitting from communist policies then I don't know what is.

[Igor01]

^ In addition, ethnic Russians got to exploit (and still do) the "Lebensraum" taken from Finland in aggression. If that's not benefitting from communist policies then I don't know what is.

The post-WWII borders in Europe were recognized by all European countries, including Finland. Russians are no more benfitting from "communist policies" than Ukrainians and Lithuanians who got parts of Poland, or the Poles themselves who got parts of Germany. You cannot use this argument selectively towards present-day Russia only.

[Igor01]

That's a lie. Several thousands of trains with Polish property have been sent to Soviet Union in 1945-1947 and never came back. Most of these were dismantled factories, machinery, mineral resources, furniture, food. Poland has been plundered by Soviets same or more than by Germany. That theft was 100% legal as Polish communist governement was forced to sign an agreement about it. I guess these machines and factories were used to produce stuff for SU citizens. Apart of that Poles were robbed by Russian soldiers (mostly officers) against Stalin's orders. I am greatful to SU and Russians for liberating Poland from horrible German occupation but why they had to rob it from anything valuable afterwards and still deny it 60 years later?
My best toys were bought in Moscow by my father, even if produced in Poland. In Poland these were unavailable, while in Moscow - no problem. That's about SU and its citizens not profiting on it's sattelites in 70s and 80s of XX century.
Can't be denied. You know how it hurts to suffer and shoudn't be surprised that other nations may have bad feelings about ethnic Russians who ruled USSR. Note that majority of Poles have nothing against average Russians, they dislike and distrust Russian authorities and Russian state.

I'd like to see some proof of your statements regarding "robbing Poland as much if not more than Germany". At the Potsdam Conference USSR has undertaken the obligations to settle the matter of German reparations to Poland and it was agreed that 15% of all Soviet reparations would become the Polish share (which Poland was receiving up until 1953 if I remember correctly). No German property was taken from Poland by USSR either, as Stalin understood the strategic importance of Poland to geopolitical situation in Europe.

And Polish toys in the 70s and 80s? Please, anybody who grew up in USSR at that time knew that the best toys come from East Germany, I haven't even heard let alone see any made in Poland back then. It's not a secret that the general standard of living was far higher in the Baltic Republics not to mention the Warsaw Pact countries than in Russia.

[kalkun]

TThere will be no problems today at all beetwen us if there would not exist such term as "people with no vote rights" wich exist only to russians (counting people who born there) with cap of naturalisation 5 000 per year.
they same EU sitizens,for whole Europe they equal as Estonians,but somhow in middle of modern democratic world heres new Aparteid,separating rights of people by ethnic.
Cant you agree this is wrong?

They do have vote rights, they can't elect government but they can vote for local governments. About citizenship's, people must firstly want it, no one is going to knock on your door and offer you a citizenship. For example younger men don't go for Estonian citizenship to avoid being drafted to do their military service.By the way choosing Russian citizenship has increased over Estonian ones.


It's not a secret that the general standard of living was far higher in the Baltic Republics not to mention the Warsaw Pact countries than in Russia.

And you probably think that higher living standards were a sort of gift?

[Kachinjsh]

They communicate with you like partners becouse their ethnic relatives not presented in Estionia with huge population.There will be no problems today at all beetwen us if there would not exist such term as "people with no vote rights" wich exist only to russians (counting people who born there) with cap of naturalisation 5 000 per year.
they same EU sitizens,for whole Europe they equal as Estonians,but somhow in middle of modern democratic world heres new Aparteid,separating rights of people by ethnic.
Cant you agree this is wrong?
If one considers himself a loyal citizen of a country he should learn to respect the local culture, learn the language (some don't understand a word, but yet have managed to live there for more than 50 years). If you do not agree with this, you can pack up and go back from where you or your ancestors came from. Let's remember that during the occupation, USSR flooded Baltics with large numbers of Russians as part of it's rusification plan.

[Shootadelic]

They do have vote rights, they can't elect government but they can vote for local governments. About citizenship's, people must firstly want it, no one is going to knock on your door and offer you a citizenship. For example younger men don't go for Estonian citizenship to avoid being drafted to do their military service.By the way choosing Russian citizenship has increased over Estonian ones.


Pls do not try to disguise real reasons on why estonians of russian origin are going actively for russian citizenship now - it is because in their own contry (Estonia) they are considered to be strangers and occupants. Furthermore, they are being reminded of their status on the regula basis by governing politicians and circles surrounding those politicians. Army service is not the reason, or at least it is for a very very limited and small part of russians living in etsonia.

For many people, going through the humiliating naturalization procedure, while most of them were actually were born on the territory, where republic of Estonia presently residing, was something they could not overcome and Estonia did nothing to change the situation.

Those who went through the naturalisation procedure, are actually getting their citizenship passports with a number, which is very clearly different from the one on "estonian" citizens' documents obtained automatically. Why is this done? Maybe because in case of some severe troubles, it is easier to identify which citizens are "own" and which ones are "new" in large numbers and say take the citizenship away.

Needless to say, that at the end of humiliating procedure, applicants need to give the oath in which they swear to be loyal citizens. I guess some actions by citizens, in case of need, can be interpreted as unloyal (say riots on the streets against active government) and used as an argument proving false oath, thus giving "legitimate"(convenient) reason to take the citizenship away and limit influence in the political life.

[Igor01]

And you probably think that higher living standards were a sort of gift?

Not at all, merely point out the fact that unlike Germans during the Third Reich, Soviets in general and Russians in particular were not enjoying any alleged benefits of Soviet domination in Eastern Europe.

[Kachinjsh]

What's so humiliating about naturalisation?

[ViruWiking]

There will be no problems today at all beetwen us if there would not exist such term as "people with no vote rights" wich exist only to russians (counting people who born there) with cap of naturalisation 5 000 per year.
,separating rights of people by ethnic.
Cant you agree this is wrong?

Hm.. about terms (for make think clear) : certainly i am 100% agree that
separating rights of people by ethnic is wrong !
And about facts: where have you seen it ?
I am realy shoked what kinde of information you get about Estonia.
Or how it transforms, before geveng to population.
Has somebody realy sad you, that we control the nationality of every person at elections, looking at his pass ? And seeing that hi is russian we forbid him to vote ?
I´l add here some dates, please inform me about those ones wich were unknown for you before:
1. We have about 342500 etnic russians in Estonia.
2. majority of them (ab. 73%) are citizens, they have the estonian pass and automatic the right to vote at all elections.
So let us to make a clear difference between "russians in Estonia have not right to vote" and "person with out estonian citizenship have not right to vote"
3. The rest russians do not have the citizenship (ab. 92000 p. it makes ab. 66% from overal 140 000 person without citiznsh. ) even those ho temporary live here for 1 year, have right to vote at municipal elections (for ex: city-administration, city-mar e.t.c. elections)
My question to you: do have persons without russian pass (ho live in Russia temporary, Chinese, the Tadzhiksfor exempl.) right to vote at municipal elections ? If no, than is it the descrimination of etnic Chinese ? or may be just a civil regulas ?


"people with no vote rights" wich exist only to russians
O no... no man ! every person (independently at nationality) ho hasn´t the pass - hasn´t right to vote (only at guvern election)

So we have not problems with right of vote, based on pass (separating by etnics how you sad ) Our vote politic is even more liberal, comparing to another some.
Let´s localize the problem around the large number of persons without citizenship, and quastion: why don´t they have it ?
Agree ?

Here the next fact:
4. Number 140 000 of people without citizenship includes not only etnic russians, there are also ukranians, armenians, moldovians, sweds, germans, canadians...e.t.c.
Every person, ho temporary comes here to live and work, gets in civil statistics as a) - a person ho live in estonia and do not have the citizenship
b) - a person ho do not speak estonian.

From here come one wrong action made by russian MID: All non estonian-speaking they automatic count as russian-speaking people, but it is not corect.
One secret refering my family: my wife is not citizen of Estonia (she arrived from outside, and she is not russian)
Another step: named as russian-speaking they count them in another context as etnic russians.
Finely, when russian MID speaks about descrimination of etnic russians , then is very wrong to use the number 140 000 of people, wich is undertaken directly from statistics ( and includes such peopl as my wife) Dues someone asked them all - dues they all pretend to estonian citizenship ?
And this refer also to many russians.
I have some russians frends. Some of them does not take estonian pass (consciously) even having all possibilities and right for it.
When i ask them - why ?, all you need just to go and take it.
They answer: "Да мне и так хорошо, выборы мне нафиг не сдались, если приспичит, вот тогда пойду да и возьму...." :roll:

How cans Lavrov to talk about 140000 ppl (ущемляемых соотечественников). when not all, but 66 % from them are etnic russians (yes it is to much), but only 25 % from them actively trying to become a citizens ?


I advise you. Do not assume all information coming from TV as a pure gold.

[Kangars]

Why ethnic russians have to go through naturalization even if they are born in Estonia? It like you live in the country for let say 20 years, then revolution happens and you suddenly have to naturilaze just beause you are not pure blood?

[Kaapeli]

Why ethnic russians have to go through naturalization even if they are born in Estonia? It like you live in the country for let say 20 years, then revolution happens and you suddenly have to naturilaze just beause you are not pure blood?

Do ex-Soviet republic citizens living or born in Russia get their Russian citizenship automatically?
No they don't. They have to go through a naturalization process and apply for it.

Do you have double standards in this issue or do you consider the Russian policy also as unfair?

[NowPlaying]

Why ethnic russians have to go through naturalization even if they are born in Estonia?

They were born in Soviet Union. Big difference.

[ViruWiking]

Why ethnic russians have to go through naturalization even if they are born in Estonia? It like you live in the country for let say 20 years, then revolution happens and you suddenly have to naturilaze just beause you are not pure blood?

Sorry... may i ask you: are you ethnic russian ?

[Mamont]

Do ex-Soviet republic citizens living or born in Russia get their Russian citizenship automatically?
No they don't. They have to go through a naturalization process and apply for it.Ahem, BS. Look at the law from 1991, 93 and 2002. Also, check how situation changed in Russia during those years and the reasons behind new laws.


Do you have double standards in this issue or do you consider the Russian policy also as unfair?Dude, the issue is dated back to USSR dissolvement, how non-ethnic residents were treated. You people likes to talk about past very much, why stop the trend now?

[Shootadelic]

What's so humiliating about naturalisation?

Imagine, you are born where you were, went to school, have friends, family, love nature, neighbours, work hard, pay tax, obey law - it is your homeland and yet you have funny "alien passport" which takes away 74 (seventy four) rights comparing to the citizens passport.

The procedure is made unnecessary difficult, for example in Latvia, you will spent months collecting necessary papers from different offices, then you have to pass exams on language and history(!) History is the most arguable subject in the world, I am saying that as a professional historian. In order to pass test, you have to study a special book, which is full of ambiguos incorrect information. I can assure you that as a middle aged man with family and fulltime job you will simply not make it due to lack of time.

And the main humilization: I was born here, this land is mine, why do I need to prove that I belong here?

Difficult to explain... one needs to experience it..

[Shootadelic]

Hm.. about terms (for make think clear) :
How cans Lavrov to talk about 140000 ppl (ущемляемых соотечественников). when not all, but 66 % from them are etnic russians (yes it is to much), but only 25 % from them actively trying to become a citizens ?


Pls do not put your thoughts as a true story. If a person was born on the land, he must have a citizenship. If not, one day that person will dig out machinegun and will make hell.

140,000 in Estonia
400,000 in Latvia

540,000 people without rights in the middle of Europe. Democracy?? Nah..

[Tavisupleba]

I don't see the problem, Estonia asks of it's citizens to know their national language, it is fairly common throughout the European Union that in order to gain a passport you have to know the language of that nation and pass a test. The people who do not want to learn Estonian obviously don't like Estonia all that much and are probably better off in Russia, where they can get a passport on request.

[Shootadelic]

I don't see the problem, Estonia asks of it's citizens to know their national language, it is fairly common throughout the European Union that in order to gain a passport you have to know the language of that nation and pass a test. The people who do not want to learn Estonian obviously don't like Estonia all that much and are probably better off in Russia, where they can get a passport on request.

It is not the language, they speak language, it is a psicological barrier - you need to prove that you have a right to live on a land, where you were born.

[tommy00]

It is not the language, they speak language, it is a psicological barrier - you need to prove that you have a right to live on a land, where you were born.

Nobody is taking anybodys right to live on a land where they were born....
But to get a cityzenship a country you have to do whats demanded by law..
You forget that people(or there ancestrys) werent born in Estonian Republic

[kosse]

..right to live on a land, where you were born.

I wish the Russian government would heed to these principles too. They like to take jabs at Estonia but when it really comes to people's rights - for example Georgians' right of return - UN voting records show crude reality.

[Igor01]

I wish the Russian government would heed to these principles too. They like to take jabs at Estonia but when it really comes to people's rights - for example Georgians' right of return - UN voting records show crude reality.

Any Georgian born in the USSR can get Russian citizenship (and many did). What is your point exactly?

[Kangars]

admit it... in Estonia and Latvia people born before independence are denided citezentship on ethnic background.

[tommy00]

1
admit it... in Estonia and Latvia people born before independence are denided citezentship on ethnic background.

Oh, people should learn a bit..
After RESTORATION of independence in 1991, all citizens of Estonian Republic(1918-1940) and there descendants(no matter what nationality) were automaticly given cityzenship, everybody else must apply it..(if they wish)....
There were a lot of 100% estonians, who didn`t get cityzenship and must apply it...(cos they or there ancestrys weren`t citizens of a 1918-40 republic
It got noting to do with ethnic, more legalissues...

[Tavisupleba]

It is not the language, they speak language, it is a psicological barrier - you need to prove that you have a right to live on a land, where you were born.

Erm what the deal is that the Republic of Estonia isn't a new nation. The annexation of the nation was deemed illegal, and western nations continued to recognize Estonia. Estonia was restored as a nation in 1991. Only people who were a citizen before the Soviet occupation or descended from such a citizen were automatically recognized as a citizen. This has nothing to do with being Russian or not, it's simply the procedure of this nation, which has every right to decide on it's own citizenship policy.

[Shootadelic]

Nobody is taking anybodys right to live on a land where they were born....
But to get a cityzenship a country you have to do whats demanded by law..
You forget that people(or there ancestrys) werent born in Estonian Republic

How come somebody being born on the land not having citizenship? This is a complete nonsense.
So why estonian nationals do not have to do what is "demanded by law"?

And if you go on about ancestors... well, then if you take it from the point of relativity, even estonians do not have right to get citizenship, however it should be granted to dinosaurs..

[Shootadelic]

1

Oh, people should learn a bit..
After RESTORATION of independence in 1991, all citizens of Estonian Republic(1918-1940) and there descendants(no matter what nationality) were automaticly given cityzenship, everybody else must apply it..(if they wish)....
There were a lot of 100% estonians, who didn`t get cityzenship and must apply it...(cos they or there ancestrys weren`t citizens of a 1918-40 republic
It got noting to do with ethnic, more legalissues...

Wrong. I can remind you what happened. In 1991 Estonia and Latvia were heavily populated by russians (army personnel, family members) and if they would have been granted citizenship right away, nobody knows where Baltic states would be now, but definitely not NATO and possibly not EU. So, by denying political rights to a large part of the population, estonians and latvians chose to drive many russians to Russia and for remaining made humiliating naturalization procedure, knowing that many will not accept it.

Dirty games.. It will backfire, wait for proper economic crisis to come, then all the nationalistic feelings go through the rough and you might lose independence as easy as you got it.

[Shootadelic]

Erm what the deal is that the Republic of Estonia isn't a new nation. The annexation of the nation was deemed illegal, and western nations continued to recognize Estonia. Estonia was restored as a nation in 1991. Only people who were a citizen before the Soviet occupation or descended from such a citizen were automatically recognized as a citizen. This has nothing to do with being Russian or not, it's simply the procedure of this nation, which has every right to decide on it's own citizenship policy.

Read history, Estonian and Latvian republics got independence from Russia by ILLEGAL agreement made between Lenin's USSR and Germany. Countries existed only 1920-1940 - 20 years in whole history (!). 20 years do not give you right to chose people by nationality. It is stupid and dangerous.

[Tavisupleba]

In the 1980's 1/3 of all inhabitants of the Estonian SSR was Russian. Nowadays it's almost 26%. Shocking change.

Estonia became independent through the Estonian War of Independence ended by the Treaty of Tartu which Germany had absolutely nothing to do with, except that the Baltic-German Landeswehr fought against Estonia. Furthermore it was recognized by most countries on the world including the Entente and the Soviet Union and was host to the Russian White movement. By the time the Estonian War of Independence took place, Imperial Germany had already collapsed and Germany had more important matters on it's mind then Estonia.

[ViruWiking]

140,000 in Estonia
400,000 in Latvia

540,000 people without rights in the middle of Europe. Democracy?? Nah..

Please dont use the number of 140 000 for Estonia (i dont know how about Latvia)
As i sad it includes representants of different nations, without citizenship, not only russians ! You simply do not have right to speak from name of all them .

Secondary: not all 140 000 were born in Estonia.
Finaly this number is from statistics and it includes also
such persons, who came some month ego, not born here, and even have newer been in Estonia before.

Please dont speculate with **** statistics.

[Shootadelic]

Please dont use the number of 140 000 for Estonia (i dont know how about Latvia)
As i sad it includes representants of different nations, without citizenship, not only russians ! You simply do not have right to speak from name of all them .

Secondary: not all 140 000 were born in Estonia.
Finaly this number is from statistics and it includes also
such persons, who came some month ego, not born here, and even have newer been in Estonia before.

Please dont speculate with **** statistics.
Well, fact remains - 140k in Estonia do not have political rights. Majority of them are russian or russianspeaking. And being one of them I have a right to speak on their behalf, while you can't.

Do not try to fool people here, pls. Months ago?? Who came month ago and went for grey foreigner passport?? What, did you expect foreigner to give away his citizenahip in order to obtain grey book giving you no more rights then a dog?

Majority of apatrids are here from the soviet times.

[Shootadelic]

In the 1980's 1/3 of all inhabitants of the E
Estonia became independent through the Estonian War of Independence ended by the Treaty of Tartu which Germany had absolutely nothing to do with, except that the Baltic-German Landeswehr fought against Estonia. Furthermore it was recognized by most countries on the world including the Entente and the Soviet Union and was host to the Russian White movement. By the time the Estonian War of Independence took place, Imperial Germany had already collapsed and Germany had more important matters on it's mind then Estonia.

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was a peace treaty signed on March 3, 1918, at Brest-Litovsk (now Brest, Belarus) between the Russian SFSR and the Central Powers, marking Russia's exit from World War I.
While the treaty was practically obsolete before the end of the year, it did provide some relief to Bolsheviks who were tied up in fighting the civil war and affirmed the independence of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland.

[kalkun]

Shootadelic wtf? I visited 2 other threads and found out your anti-Baltic countries and anti-Georgia, what else do you hate? Keep the BS that Estonia got it Independence thanks to illegal agreement to yourself.
And don't faking threaten again to start massacreing people here.

(I recommend everybody to eject from the thread)

[ViruWiking]

Read history, Estonian and Latvian republics got independence from Russia by ILLEGAL agreement made between Lenin's USSR and Germany. Countries existed only 1920-1940 - 20 years in whole history (!). 20 years do not give you right to chose people by nationality. It is stupid and dangerous.

Every fight for you freedom is LEGAL if you fight for freedom at you historic land ! our ancestors lived here already 2000 years ago ! And it is absolutely not important how long (and by who) was occupied our land time after time - it is our own !

[Wojtop]

I'd like to see some proof of your statements regarding "robbing Poland as much if not more than Germany". At the Potsdam Conference USSR has undertaken the obligations to settle the matter of German reparations to Poland and it was agreed that 15% of all Soviet reparations would become the Polish share (which Poland was receiving up until 1953 if I remember correctly). No German property was taken from Poland by USSR either, as Stalin understood the strategic importance of Poland to geopolitical situation in Europe.


Oh my friend, you don't know your own history. Hilary Minc, a communist and minister of industry of post-war Poland estimated that 25% of industrial machinery and 6% of whole property on territories taken from Germany and given to Poland has been taken away to SU. You must be aware of existance of "trofiejne" Red Army units, with only purpose to plunder valuable staff in the area of stationment.

Read a book by a Russian historician G. Popov "Great patriotic War 1941-1945". Apart of writing about great victories and amazing efforts by Russian people he also lists plundered goods, thousands of pieces of furniture, pianos, clothes, tons of food, dozens of factories dismantled and taken away from Germany and Poland.

Also Polish IPN (governmental institution) collected recollections of people from 1945 about dismantling factories, taking away whole railways etc. Go to Mazury or Pomerania, you can find there stations dozens of kilometers from the nearest railway - rails were ripped and taken to SU together with trains and equipment. This was directed by Soviet governent and sanctioned by international agreements.

Popov also mentions more than 4000 Soviet officers courtmartialed in 1945 for robbery in Poland and Germany. That was disapproved by Stalin, being just a lot of small but profitable initiatives on soldiers part.

Russian plunders were certainly no better than Geman.

[asch]

Every fight for you freedom is LEGAL if you fight for freedom at you historic land ! our ancestors lived here already 2000 years ago ! And it is absolutely not important how long (and by who) was occupied our land time after time - it is our own !
surprising that you support Taleban, Chechen terrorists and such scum. after all, they "fight for freedom", no?

[Tavisupleba]

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was a peace treaty signed on March 3, 1918, at Brest-Litovsk (now Brest, Belarus) between the Russian SFSR and the Central Powers, marking Russia's exit from World War I.
While the treaty was practically obsolete before the end of the year, it did provide some relief to Bolsheviks who were tied up in fighting the civil war and affirmed the independence of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland.

No, through the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk the Russian SFSR renounced it's claims on these areas. Estonia did not become independent it was occupied by the Germans and when the Empire of Germany collapsed two years later it stood by itself. Immediatly the Bolshevik Russians moved to attack Estonia who had to fight for it's independence, and won it. It was the Treaty of Tartu would affirm Estonian independence and through which the Republic of Estonia was established.

[kosse]

surprising that you support Taleban, Chechen terrorists and such scum. after all, they "fight for freedom", no?
What a retarded analogy.

[Mamont]

Oh my friend, you don't know your own history. Hilary Minc, a communist and minister of industry of post-war Poland estimated that 25% of industrial machinery and 6% of whole property on territories taken from Germany and given to Poland So it was a property of Germany, not Poland i presume.


You must be aware of existance of "trofiejne" Red Army units, with only purpose to plunder valuable staff in the area of stationment. Plunder? You are an insulting idiot. I do like to know how'd you call english, US or french similar units..


Also Polish IPN (governmental institution) collected recollections of people from 1945 about dismantling factories, taking away whole railways etc. Recollections? Idiocy again. There was an official order to observe and take all valuable technical stuff to rebuild what was lost in the war.


This was directed by Soviet governent and sanctioned by international agreements. Dude, learn your history. Especially protocol about reparations signed during Crimean conference. Of course, the enormous losses, inflicted by the war must be replenished by available material.


Russian plunders were certainly no better than Geman.Man, such comment really making me wish that Europe would stay under german thumb and "purified"... So many soviet lives would not have been lost to preserve the life of an ungratefull idiots, procreating today.. The brother of my grandfather is lying somewhere in Poland..

[Igor01]

Oh my friend, you don't know your own history. .... Russian plunders were certainly no better than Geman.

So, your grievance is that while USSR saved your entire nation from disappearing from the face of the Earth (see Generalplan Ost), it also had the liberty of taking some of the German property from the German territory that it gifted to you? Truly amazing, like that guy who was saved from drowning in a lake by a passer-by only to sue the said passer-by for allowing his hat to get lost in the process. I am sure you are aware that Nazis and the fighting have all but destroyed most of Soviet infrastructure, cities and industrial base, not to mention the immense loss of life. Wouldn't you think that taking some German property from German territory (note - German, not Polish) was a very small price for the aggressor to pay? I don't see Germans complaining about that, yet you being a Pole apparently have a problem with that. Outstanding...

Oh, and whatever the goods were transported from Poland into USSR, were not taken or plundered, they were exchanged for Soviet supplies of fuel, coal, flower and cotton. Stalin was paranoidly determined to involve Poland into the Soviet orbit, so the orders to the RKKA to not allow any unlawful interaction with the locals were strictly enforced.

And as for Soviets being "no better than Germans" with respect to Poland, I won't even comment on that. Seriously, it's not worth it.

[ViruWiking]

Look at the globe Shootadelic, you will easy found your historical native land - it very large. But it seems that it is not enough for you and you need also our small point, which is aproximately not evident on the map.
Let us have a talk directly. All todays policy is a war for the territory. And if for you, (Russians), in this game, our Estonia is just a small piece, which you want to add to your large country, then for us (Estonians), this is all that we have.
The right for own it we have, are also unequal: for you
centuries of military presence as in colony, for us - 2000 years our only motherland.

I understand that you will be not agree with me, here in Estonia, when i speak about ethnical security of motherland (we are on the opposing parts). But as russian patriot, you will fill the same, when we will look at this:
Moscow: official population 10 443 000
illegal emegrantes: about 3 000 000 - is it normal ?
What to do ? lets give to all them the citizenship for resolve this problem...why not ?
Ok, it calls stupid for now and i know that we can not to compare them (arrived yesterday) with you (born here)....but what will you do after 20 years, with them children (born in Russia, and not knowing something about another homeland) ?
Problem is not in ethnicity properly , will you want to give them the citizenship if many of them will talk: i do not know who is Pushkin and i do not want to know him !.....
we have our own planes for this country...... you , locatives must learn our language, becouse yours one is to stupid and i do not understand it ......

Is it realy so easy ?

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was a peace treaty signed on March 3, 1918, at Brest-Litovsk (now Brest, Belarus) between the Russian SFSR and the Central Powers, marking Russia's exit from World War I.
While the treaty was practically obsolete before the end of the year, it did provide some relief to Bolsheviks who were tied up in fighting the civil war and affirmed the independence of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland.
Nice copy pasta from wiki. Although the part about Finland is somewhat wrong, Finland became independent in 1917, and the article you go what you pasted from itself says the Russian SFSR recognized Finland before the treaty was signed

[Wojtop]

Mamoth - take your pills and stop insulting me. What is wrong about my sources? If you think history was different than give some reliable sources, otherwise face the truth about your country. Be carefull the idea below may kill you:
Mother Russia is not a virgin :oops:
Tell me why Russia had to be rebuilt using Polish material? Poland was your ally after all. Also - I am talking about agreements between USSR and PKWN (puppet communist government of Poland), not about global agreements. You call me an idiot while you have no clue about the issue being discussed and brain to much filled with propaganda to leave a place for any grey cells. I pity you.

As for plunders - the trouble is that Soviets plundered both territories given to Poland and taken from Poland. Poles moving from the East to the West had no right to take machines/equipment with them, and coming to the West they found industry and agriculture already cleaned from any useful stuff by Soviets. I do not deny Russians saving Polish nation as a whole and am grateful for that. The trouble is that using your comparition it was like saving someone drowning, than taking his documents away (establishing totalitarian regime), taking his last money (plunder), than lend him some money to survive (loans from SU to Poland) and make him repay the loan with hard work (following 40 years). Considering these facts be understanding towards somewhat limiited gratitude towards Russia.

[ViruWiking]

surprising that you support Taleban, Chechen terrorists and such scum. after all, they "fight for freedom", no?
Wrong !

From your absolutic pricing i can to understand, that you found equal the partizans (like Иван Сусанин for exemple) with terrorists ?
And separation by Good/crime gets from We / They ?

No man ! - do not apply this logic to me.
I have another point. It depends on what to do for name of freedom.
I do not support the attaks against civilians - it is terrorism !
I accept the attaks against military units as a war action.

[asch]

Wrong !

From your absolutic pricing i can to understand, that you found equal the partizans (like Иван Сусанин for exemple) with terrorists ?
And separation by Good/crime gets from We / They ?

No man ! - do not apply this logic to me.
I have another point. It depends on what to do for name of freedom.
I do not support the attaks against civilians - it is terrorism !
I accept the attaks against military units as a war action.

i have a question: do attack at supposed "colaborators" can be called an "attack against military unit"?

[Mamont]

Mamoth - take your pills and stop insulting me. Hm, you can read, but you don't understand what's written. So i'll answer in more detail now.


What is wrong about my sources? If you think history was different than give some reliable sources, It's not about history, it's how you treat it.


otherwise face the truth about your country. Be carefull the idea below may kill you: You don't know my country. But you may ask.


Mother Russia is not a virgin :oops: So as Poland. So don't play this trashy victim card here.


Tell me why Russia had to be rebuilt using Polish material? Polish material? What makes that "material" polish? Only the will of soviet goverment.


Poland was your ally after all. No. The old Poland, your goverment claim to be inherited, in the end was not an ally. The new Poland, created with the help by SU was. There is a difference. And a BIG one.


Also - I am talking about agreements between USSR and PKWN (puppet communist government of Poland), not about global agreements. First there were global agreements. Poland was not a major player and didn't decide anything. Also, about what agreement exactly you're talking about? The first one was signed 4 august 1944 about supplying soviet army and polish units, formed in USSR on a newly freed territories of future Poland. Also at 10 october same year the first trade negotiations started, which ended in 20 october by signing agreement about supplying goods. The next agreement was signed 7 july 1945. Also in accordance to Potsdam conference SU agreed to compensate Poland from the reparations from Germany that were allocated to it. And agreement about compensations of losses caused by german occupation was signed 16 august 1945. The first paragraph stated - SU gives all rights to german property and other actives on polish territory, also share of german manufacturing and transportation companies on all polish territory and added territories. Second - a)15% of reparations from the soviet zone of occupation after the Berlin conference, b)15% of all manufacturing equipment, transferred from Germany from western zones of occupation, this part of equipment will be traded for polish goods.c)15% of all manufacturing equipment from western zones of occupation without any price. Also part 2 ended with a special note - Poland was obliged to supply SU with coal under special price during whole term of German occupation. First year 8mln tonnes, next 4 years - 13, after that - 12mln tonns per year. 7 september 1945 - another agreement about transfer to Polish ownership 1987 passanger and freight steam locomotives.. Also in 1946 SU exported over 1,7mln(10%of all reserves) tonns of grain to Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and CS despite the internal shortage. The next batch of agreements was signed in 1947. Please continue.

Since you started talking about loans, let's hear you how Poland payed them. BTW, the first loan of 28,9mln $ in gold was signed in 1947, second ~450mln $ - 1948(to pay for the manufacturing equipment from the SU).


You call me an idiot while you have no clue about the issue being discussed and brain to much filled with propaganda to leave a place for any grey cells. Petty insults is not a good substitution for a answer.


I pity you. Save the pity for your children. I fear they may inherit your views and traits..


As for plunders - the trouble is that Soviets plundered both territories given to Poland and taken from Poland. Hm, as far as situation developed, there were no Poland to speak of. The old Poland was destroyed. The new was created by the SU. So the issue is absent from the beginning.


Poles moving from the East to the West had no right to take machines/equipment with them,I suggest you dig mp.net a bit for a little discussion about how many and how poles relocated after the war. It's in the historical section. Also, read about agrarian reform and nationalisation in Poland. Also as far as the things went before 1950 Poland surpassed the pre-war level of agricultural and heavy manufacturing. I'm kinda interested how, don't tell me poles created all that from the thin air?


and coming to the West they found industry and agriculture already cleaned from any useful stuff by Soviets. Riiight. How did they survive than?


I do not deny Russians saving Polish nation as a whole and am grateful for that. The trouble is that using your comparition it was like saving someone drowning, A better comparison is - bringing the dead to life. Loosing 1/3 of all posessions in general in the proccess.


Considering these facts be understanding towards somewhat limiited gratitude towards Russia.Facts? That's your imagination talking.

[Vympel]

What a retarded analogy.

retarded but true

[ilmakas]

My grandmother is russian. She was Estonian citizen in 1939. In 1991 she got her new passport with no problems at all. Some of my estonian ancestors emigrated to russia before 1917 and came back after 1945 and did have to go trhough the same process as everybody else to apply for Estonian citizenship. So as you see there is no discrimination based on nationality.

And one more thing, the number of people without citizenship is 110k not 140k and this number is getting smaller every year. more info http://www.vm.ee/estonia/kat_399/pea_172/4518.html

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

http://bp2.blogger.com/_mQVMWixtCcw/SGjCESbXqqI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/517hqqvaJew/S214/Map_of_Russian_subjects_recent555.png:petting: This is our secret purpose...

I'm proud that Estonia is biggest fear of Russia! Haaa-haaa-haaaaaa

[pacifist]

http://bp2.blogger.com/_mQVMWixtCcw/SGjCESbXqqI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/517hqqvaJew/S214/Map_of_Russian_subjects_recent555.png:petting: This is our secret purpose...

Can we have Karelia, please?

[Thor]

I'm amazed that the Balts haven't carried out a rightful revenge on the Russians, for this restraint the latter group should be immensely grateful. The whole notion about occupiers' "right" to citizenship after the liberation is ridiculous.


i have a question: do attack at supposed "colaborators" can be called an "attack against military unit"?
Traitors are executed. That has been the standard operating procedure in most countries during wartime.

[Mamont]

I'm amazed that the Balts haven't carried out a rightful revenge on the Russians, for this restraint the latter group should be immensely grateful. If they produced a smallest fart in that direction there would be no more Baltic countries..


The whole notion about occupiers' "right" to citizenship after the liberation is ridiculous.Execute all kids and old ones? And send all capable to uranium mines? Is that your idea? Considering your past statements i would't be surprised if it is..


Traitors are executed. That has been the standard operating procedure in most countries during wartime.Wow, after this comment considering the number of members of various anti-SU organisation in Baltic countries i really think Stalin _was_ a humanist..

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

Can we have Karelia, please?
Of course (http://www.srch-results.com/lm/dir_rxt.asp?k=course)! This is OUR little fenno-ugric family business...:hug:

[asch]

I'm amazed that the Balts haven't carried out a rightful revenge on the Russians, for this restraint the latter group should be immensely grateful. The whole notion about occupiers' "right" to citizenship after the liberation is ridiculous.
Balts was a same part of USSR for a long time, no? and USSR is not an "United Soviet Solidarity of Russkies" there was some other meaning i believe.


Traitors are executed. That has been the standard operating procedure in most countries during wartime.
then define "traitors".
btw, such words pretty much gave an excuse to Taleban fighters murdering Afghan civilians who, by any degree, help coalition troops. got my idea?

[Thor]

If they produced a smallest fart in that direction there would be no more Baltic countries..
You mean like when the mighty Afghanistan drove you out in the 1989, or when the mighty Chechens drove you out in 1995? Or like now when the mighty Georgians mock you?


Execute all kids and old ones? And send all capable to uranium mines? Is that your idea? Considering your past statements i would't be surprised if it is..
That sounds more like exactly what you Russians did to the peoples you subdued.

Why would you hand out citizenships to occupiers after the liberation? It's a ridiculous notion.


Wow, after this comment considering the number of members of various anti-SU organisation in Baltic countries i really think Stalin _was_ a humanist..
To betray the enemy is an oxymoron. Imperialist states always try include those foreigners they see fit into their Empire, and kill or inprison everyone else.


Balts was a same part of USSR for a long time, no? and USSR is not an "United Soviet Solidarity of Russkies" there was some other meaning i believe.
It was merely a new Imperialist Russian State with a bunch of enslaved proxy regions/peoples.

Time has nothing to do with it. If the occupation is prolonged people need to get a chance to continue to live their lives in order to survive, but blatant treason can never be excused.


then define "traitors".
btw, such words pretty much gave an excuse to Taleban fighters murdering Afghan civilians who, by any degree, help coalition troops. got my idea?
Get your idea? It's one of the most idiotic "analogies" I've seen.

[asch]

It was merely a new Imperialist Russian State with a bunch of enslaved proxy regions/peoples.
it's hard to argue with people who don't want to hear anything.


Get your idea? It's one of the most idiotic "analogies" I've seen.

i get a feeling that you don't read my posts, just ramming your point of view wrapped it in a low-grade insults. got a trolling education lately?

[kosse]

I'm amazed that the Balts haven't carried out a rightful revenge on the Russians, for this restraint the latter group should be immensely grateful. The whole notion about occupiers' "right" to citizenship after the liberation is ridiculous.


The way balts have handled the situation is truly repectable. I for sure could not find it in my heart to forgive as easily.


If they produced a smallest fart in that direction there would be no more Baltic countries..

We are all too familiar with this Russian way of handling things. Thanks for reminding us again how you like it. In no other nationality have I seen so much aptitude for violence on this forum as in Georgian threads where Russians are screaming for blood and hoping for war and all it takes is that a few Russians get insulted by Georgian militia..




Execute all kids and old ones? And send all capable to uranium mines? Is that your idea? Considering your past statements i would't be surprised if it is..


Don't be an idiot. Like said we in Europe don't do things as you do in Russia. They would have been just sent to pack their bags and told to move back to Russian federation or be moved in a civilized manner.

[Xaito]

Don't be an idiot. Like said we in Europe don't do things as you do in Russia. They would have been just sent to pack their bags and told to move back to Russian federation or be moved in a civilized manner.
oh you must mean post WW2, yes?
I wonder what you'd be doing nowadays if Russia wouldn't have been involved in that war... sie verstehen, Herr Kosse?

[Mamont]

You mean like when the mighty Afghanistan drove you out in the 1989Hm, if that was an attempt to insult me - you missed, if a serious statement - it shows how full o garbage your head is.


or when the mighty Chechens drove you out in 1995?Hm, another attempt? Look where chechens are now. Funny you didn't mentioned nazis and their baltic helpers in 41. They were the most succesfull "drivers" so far.


Or like now when the mighty Georgians mock you?Mock? I think they're just trying patience and making fools of themselfes while thinking that big daddy will protect their asses in case they overdo something.


That sounds more like exactly what you Russians did to the peoples you subdued."You russians"? Subdued.. Jeez, what garbage..


Why would you hand out citizenships to occupiers after the liberation? It's a ridiculous notion.Yeah, all those women, children are bloody oppressors, running in the streets with assault rifles shooting anyone in sight.. It's almost amusing how none ever mentioned how many goverment executives were members of communist party and loyal supporters.
Also in Estonia they now try to prosecute Arnold Meri, a Hero of Soviet Union, who earned that title with his own blood, fighting for the lives of bastards who now try to execute him..


It's one of the most idiotic "analogies" I've seen.Oh, you just trying to find exuses.


We are all too familiar with this Russian way of handling things. Russian? I can remind you of your own history if you like. Also, there is a good saying i'm sure you're familiar with: "an appetite apears during a meal". First russians, than who?


Thanks for reminding us again how you like it.The pleasure was all mine.


In no other nationality have I seen so much aptitude for violence on this forum This forum is no indicator for russian or anyone else aptitude for violence or anything else. Generalisation is always bad, and it's really sad that many russian haters are infected by it.


Don't be an idiot. Like said we in Europe don't do things as you do in Russia. Don't start with "we in Europe" or you call a sh*tstorm upon you, dear european. You know, the point-finger-game can be played both ways. Also, i can safely say that it was SU that raised and educated you in such manner. After all - you were "subdued" and "indoctrinated". "Forcefully".

[Jippo]

.... Generalisation is always bad, and it's really sad that many russian haters are infected by it.

...

...the point-finger-game can be played both ways.


My opinion exactly

[Sergei]

Like said we in Europe don't do things as you do in Russia. They would have been just sent to pack their bags and told to move back to Russian federation or be moved in a civilized manner.

Oh cut this "I am hollier than you" crap, please. Europe is responsible for some of the worst world wars and genocide in the last 300-400 years. Africa or South East Asia ring a bell?
I would just shut up and pretend that things look better now than 100 years ago.

[perdurabo]

oh you must mean post WW2, yes?
I wonder what you'd be doing nowadays if Russia wouldn't have been involved in that war... sie verstehen, Herr Kosse?
there wouldn't be world war2? there would be Polish-German-French-British war of 1939-1940?

[Mamont]

there wouldn't be world war2? there would be Polish-German-French-British war of 1939-1940?:)Actually it was and we know how things went..:(

[Xaito]

there wouldn't be world war2? there would be Polish-German-French-British war of 1939-1940?

the result of such a war and its consequences?
You living in Poland should know best - the camps are still there for everybody to visit and remember.

[asch]

this thread going nowhere. mutual accusations, "us good you untermensch bad", so fvcking nice. that sort of things is what to make MPnet looks and feels ****ty. i'm off that shyte.

[Arbody]

the result of such a war and its consequences?
You living in Poland should know best - the camps are still there for everybody to visit and remember.


I saw them , the saddest view in my life (Treblinka , Auschwitz-Birkenau )

[CPL Trevoga]

That sounds more like exactly what you Russians did to the peoples you subdued.

Why would you hand out citizenships to occupiers after the liberation? It's a ridiculous notion.


To betray the enemy is an oxymoron. Imperialist states always try include those foreigners they see fit into their Empire, and kill or inprison everyone else.


It was merely a new Imperialist Russian State with a bunch of enslaved proxy regions/peoples.

Time has nothing to do with it. If the occupation is prolonged people need to get a chance to continue to live their lives in order to survive, but blatant treason can never be excused.


Get your idea? It's one of the most idiotic "analogies" I've seen.

Thor your not even Finno-Ugric and on top of that, your people tried to culturally destroy Finno-Ugric people at every turn throughout history. That's why Sweden is small country overran by 3rd world immigrants and Russia is one of the largest federations of different nationalities.

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

Thor your not even Finno-Ugric and on top of that, your people tried to culturally destroy Finno-Ugric people at every turn throughout history. That's why Sweden is small country overran by 3rd world immigrants and Russia is one of the largest federations of different nationalities.
And you think that Rossijastan dont destroy f-ugric people? (Did you know how many fenno-ugric blood you have? A lot...)

What Russia have, is only little pieces of f-ugric peoples. Who survive after centuryes of assimilations and destroyng.

And here Estonia we call Swedish occupation as a "golden swedish age". In that period we have more rights than russian peasant...

http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm

400 Million Years Ago Estonia’s a balmy, equatorial land. Continental plates inch from the tropics to its current locale.
9000 B.C. Glaciers recede north. As they do, boulders laced in the melting ice tumble to the ground, accounting for the many large rocks across the land today.
3000 B.C. Estonian ancestors settle along the Baltic coast.
800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna.
1219 Danes take North Estonia; first foreign occupation.1227 Riga-based German crusaders conquer and Christianize pagan Estonia; the Germans become landed gentry and wield huge influence for 700 years.
1346 Fed up with constant rebellions by natives, Danes sell northern Estonia to the German Teutonic Order for 19,000 silver marks. The Teutonic Order then sells the territory to the German Livonian Order a year later—for a 1,000 mark profit.
1400 Tallinn’s population is 4,000. Estonians make up 40 percent, Germans 30 percent; Swedes, Finns, Danes and Russians are also here. The main languages are Estonian and German; clergy and scholars use Latin.
1523 Reformation; Estonian first used in liturgy. First Estonian book appears in 1525.
1561 Swedes conquer Estonia, repel Russians. Social reforms; Tartu University founded in 1632.
1710 Russia conquers Estonia, though Germans retain local control. The battle with Sweden causes 80 percent of the 100,000 Tallinn population to die—mainly by starvation and the plague.
1816 Age-old system of serfdom is abolished.
1860-1885 Growing national consciousness—followed by a Czarist backlash.
1870 Petersburg-Tallinn railway finished; Tallinn becomes a major Russian Empire port. Tallinn’s population grows from 30,000 to over 100,000 in coming decades.
1905 Poor peasants vent their anger at Czarist police and Baltic Germans, who own more than half the land in Estonia.
1918 Estonians had been pushing mainly for greater autonomy within what they hoped would be a democratically-oriented Russian Empire. But after Soviet Russia’s heavy-handedness, they declare independence. Estonian forces beat back German and Soviet militaries. They’re aided at critical points by Great Britain.
1920 Against all odds, Estonia wins independence. Amid post-war economic misery and destruction, land is taken from German nobility and redistributed to the poor.
1935 Estonia becomes increasingly frantic about the threat from Soviet Russia to the east and Nazi Germany to the west. In the meantime, Estonia prospers, with GDP reaching or surpassing Nordic levels.
1939 Hitler and Stalin carve up Europe, with the Baltics said to be the Soviet sphere. Before, the Baltics were able to play Germany and Russia off each other, but they’re now virtually within the clutches of Russia—with Germany’s acquiescence.
1940 As Germany invades France, the U.S.S.R. grabs Estonia.
1941 June 14 First mass deportations by Stalinist forces, targeting the cream of society. Others dragged out of detention cells and shot.
1941 Germany occupies Estonia. Most of some 4,000 Estonian Jews flee to Russia, though some 1000 who do not are killed. According to German plans, Estonia would be repopulated with Germans and converted into a new Third Reich state stretching as far as Petersburg.
1944 Soviet occupation again; thousands flee West, others head to the forests to resist. Some anti-Soviet forest partisans engage Soviet troops in battle.
1949 More mass deportations to Siberia.
1970s The beginning of the Stagnation Era under Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev; rampant shortages and rule by jowly, gray-faced men. It was, says historian Anatol Lieven, an era of “faceless bureaucrats playing an endless game of musical chairs,” moving from the directorship of one department or factory to another.
1987 First open protests against Soviet rule.
1988 Estonian Soviet legislature declares sovereignty. The independence drive begins in earnest; it’s dubbed the Singing Revolution because rallies are peaceful and usually accompanied by singing.
1990 Soviet Estonian legislature declares a transition to independence.
1991 In January, Soviets crackdown on Baltics.
August 1991 A coup in the Kremlin unravels as quickly as it began. Two days before, it looked like the absolute worst was about to happen. But suddenly, with Moscow’s authority having collapsed, the impossible dream of restoring independence comes true literally overnight.
March 29, 2004 Estonia is accepted into NATO. It's the first time in its history to join a military alliance voluntarily.
May 1, 2004 Estonia joins the European Union.

53859
Fenno-ugrians today (and nearly past).

53860
Her you can see where from russians gome...

http://web-static.vm.ee/static/failid/097/eesti.swf
Modern Estonia

[asch]

a quick couple of questions:
Rossiyastan? do you mean that we have too big muslim populations or same old **** about Asian Tribes?
and whole this passage

And you think that Rossijastan dont destroy f-ugric people? (Did you know how many fenno-ugric blood you have? A lot...)
What Russia have, is only little pieces of f-ugric peoples. Who survive after centuryes of assimilations and destroyng.
interests me much. care to back your statement?

[pacifist]

I once saw a document from Russia where there was this old woman who was only person left in the world who could speak certain finno-ugric language and she was teaching it to some young girl.

Talk about nearly dead language.

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

http://pakana.150m.com/EKART2.HTM

http://pakana.150m.com/Ie-su.gif

http://www.postimees.ee/foto/1/4/137341478d334c2490b_3.jpg

Fenno-ugric blood in russians in North-Russia. C Hg N3 is Y- cromosom fenno-ugric variation.

[Doublethinker]

Thor your not even Finno-Ugric and on top of that, your people tried to culturally destroy Finno-Ugric people at every turn throughout history. That's why Sweden is small country overran by 3rd world immigrants and Russia is one of the largest federations of different nationalities.

... also overran by 3rd world immigrants.

Sweden pretends not to notice the problem and we pretend that that is the way we always wanted it to be and that we have a hell of a friendship between nations here.

But that's a topic for a different thread.

On topic: I don't see where the arguement is going from, since Slavic and Finno-Ugric roots (Slavic tribes of Poljane, Drevljane, Krivichi, Vyatichi and many others, F-Ugric tribes of Mer', Chud', Ves' and others )were predominant in the creation of modern Russian nation.

[Flamming_Python]

And you think that Rossijastan dont destroy f-ugric people? (Did you know how many fenno-ugric blood you have? A lot...)

What Russia have, is only little pieces of f-ugric peoples. Who survive after centuryes of assimilations and destroyng.

And here Estonia we call Swedish occupation as a "golden swedish age". In that period we have more rights than russian peasant...

http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm

400 Million Years Ago Estonia’s a balmy, equatorial land. Continental plates inch from the tropics to its current locale.
9000 B.C. Glaciers recede north. As they do, boulders laced in the melting ice tumble to the ground, accounting for the many large rocks across the land today.
3000 B.C. Estonian ancestors settle along the Baltic coast.
800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna.
1219 Danes take North Estonia; first foreign occupation.1227 Riga-based German crusaders conquer and Christianize pagan Estonia; the Germans become landed gentry and wield huge influence for 700 years.
1346 Fed up with constant rebellions by natives, Danes sell northern Estonia to the German Teutonic Order for 19,000 silver marks. The Teutonic Order then sells the territory to the German Livonian Order a year later—for a 1,000 mark profit.
1400 Tallinn’s population is 4,000. Estonians make up 40 percent, Germans 30 percent; Swedes, Finns, Danes and Russians are also here. The main languages are Estonian and German; clergy and scholars use Latin.
1523 Reformation; Estonian first used in liturgy. First Estonian book appears in 1525.
1561 Swedes conquer Estonia, repel Russians. Social reforms; Tartu University founded in 1632.
1710 Russia conquers Estonia, though Germans retain local control. The battle with Sweden causes 80 percent of the 100,000 Tallinn population to die—mainly by starvation and the plague.
1816 Age-old system of serfdom is abolished.
1860-1885 Growing national consciousness—followed by a Czarist backlash.
1870 Petersburg-Tallinn railway finished; Tallinn becomes a major Russian Empire port. Tallinn’s population grows from 30,000 to over 100,000 in coming decades.
1905 Poor peasants vent their anger at Czarist police and Baltic Germans, who own more than half the land in Estonia.
1918 Estonians had been pushing mainly for greater autonomy within what they hoped would be a democratically-oriented Russian Empire. But after Soviet Russia’s heavy-handedness, they declare independence. Estonian forces beat back German and Soviet militaries. They’re aided at critical points by Great Britain.
1920 Against all odds, Estonia wins independence. Amid post-war economic misery and destruction, land is taken from German nobility and redistributed to the poor.
1935 Estonia becomes increasingly frantic about the threat from Soviet Russia to the east and Nazi Germany to the west. In the meantime, Estonia prospers, with GDP reaching or surpassing Nordic levels.
1939 Hitler and Stalin carve up Europe, with the Baltics said to be the Soviet sphere. Before, the Baltics were able to play Germany and Russia off each other, but they’re now virtually within the clutches of Russia—with Germany’s acquiescence.
1940 As Germany invades France, the U.S.S.R. grabs Estonia.
1941 June 14 First mass deportations by Stalinist forces, targeting the cream of society. Others dragged out of detention cells and shot.
1941 Germany occupies Estonia. Most of some 4,000 Estonian Jews flee to Russia, though some 1000 who do not are killed. According to German plans, Estonia would be repopulated with Germans and converted into a new Third Reich state stretching as far as Petersburg.
1944 Soviet occupation again; thousands flee West, others head to the forests to resist. Some anti-Soviet forest partisans engage Soviet troops in battle.
1949 More mass deportations to Siberia.
1970s The beginning of the Stagnation Era under Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev; rampant shortages and rule by jowly, gray-faced men. It was, says historian Anatol Lieven, an era of “faceless bureaucrats playing an endless game of musical chairs,” moving from the directorship of one department or factory to another.
1987 First open protests against Soviet rule.
1988 Estonian Soviet legislature declares sovereignty. The independence drive begins in earnest; it’s dubbed the Singing Revolution because rallies are peaceful and usually accompanied by singing.
1990 Soviet Estonian legislature declares a transition to independence.
1991 In January, Soviets crackdown on Baltics.
August 1991 A coup in the Kremlin unravels as quickly as it began. Two days before, it looked like the absolute worst was about to happen. But suddenly, with Moscow’s authority having collapsed, the impossible dream of restoring independence comes true literally overnight.
March 29, 2004 Estonia is accepted into NATO. It's the first time in its history to join a military alliance voluntarily.
May 1, 2004 Estonia joins the European Union.

53859
Fenno-ugrians today (and nearly past).

53860
Her you can see where from russians gome...

http://web-static.vm.ee/static/failid/097/eesti.swf
Modern Estonia

As Doublethinker mentioned, where do you see the ancient Slavic tribes that used to inhabit the Volga basin? You don't; they have all been assimilated into a broader identity; Russkij (ethnic Russian), along with most of the Finno-Ugric tribes of the area and quite a few Turkic ones. This process started well over 1000 years ago. Peoples that were added more recently have not been assimilated to that extent (e.g. Tatars), and have thus far preserved their own language and traditions.

[Alexandr]

J.Kuperjanov-The Hero
you are sick
" C Hg N3 is Y- cromosom fenno-ugric variation."
Dr.Mengele would be happy with followers like you.

[kosse]

J.Kuperjanov-The Hero
you are sick
" C Hg N3 is Y- cromosom fenno-ugric variation."
Dr.Mengele would be happy with followers like you.

Oh noes. Slavs and finns share some same genes. Cannot be! Russia for Russians! :roll:

[Kaapeli]

J.Kuperjanov-The Hero
you are sick
" C Hg N3 is Y- cromosom fenno-ugric variation."
Dr.Mengele would be happy with followers like you.

Why would you say that?
Genetics is not sick nor has anything to do with Mengele.

The haplogroup follows very closely the historical spread of the Uralic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29

[kosse]

Why would you say that?
Genetics is not sick nor has anything to do with Mengele.

The haplogroup follows very closely the historical spread of the Uralic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29

It is obviously a preposterous lie that lowly Finnic peoples could have tainted pure and noble Slavic bloodlines. That's impossible! Blasphemy!

[asch]

It is obviously a preposterous lie that lowly Finnic peoples could have tainted pure and noble Slavic bloodlines. That's impossible! Blasphemy!
silly. feel bitter that we have something in common? you, asiatic barbarian, you! p-)

[kosse]

silly. feel bitter that we have something in common? you, asiatic barbarian, you! p-)
Yes, damn Brezhnev eyebrows....I am bitter p-)

[Thor]

Thor your not even Finno-Ugric
Hey, FYI I'm 1/4 Finn.

I enjoy Finnish movies, that's proof enough.

http://youtube.com/v/op68Gh3BVEc

[Alexandr]

Why would you say that?
Genetics is not sick nor has anything to do with Mengele.

The haplogroup follows very closely the historical spread of the Uralic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29

becouse those fycking Y haplogroup equal to Russian Ugro-Finns,Russian Slavics,Russian Caucasians,ect.Genetics screwed.And that "hero"-guy srewed with genetics too with his very Nazi-relative theories.I wonder why he not mention shape of scull as standart of true Finno-Ugric

[kosse]

becouse those fycking Y haplogroup equal to Russian Ugro-Finns,Russian Slavics,Russian Caucasians,ect.Genetics screwed.And that "hero"-guy srewed with genetics too with his very Nazi-relative theories.I wonder why he not mention shape of scull as standart of true Finno-Ugric

Try typing that again in proper English. I couldn't understand any of it and most likely I'm not the only one.

[CPL Trevoga]

Hey, FYI I'm 1/4 Finn.

I enjoy Finnish movies, that's proof enough.

http://youtube.com/v/op68Gh3BVEc

Thanks. Finnish movies are not that bad.

[Basillicus]

Hey, FYI I'm 1/4 Finn.

I enjoy Finnish movies, that's proof enough.

http://youtube.com/v/op68Gh3BVEc

Lulz, I love that pseudo-Finnish they are speaking! Sounds authentic enough when you are not concentrating. rofl

Too bad in reality there are tons of movies like that and nobody likes them (except critics and artists). That happens when artists are given free hands and little economical pressure. I don't know which is worse, this socialist model where these dudes are smoking pot and drinking booze while making artistic movies that are horrible to watch, or Hollywood model where it's all about making money with without any ambitions.

[pacifist]

Lulz, I love that pseudo-Finnish they are speaking! Sounds authentic enough when you are not concentrating. rofl

Too bad in reality there are tons of movies like that and nobody likes them (except critics and artists). That happens when artists are given free hands and little economical pressure. I don't know which is worse, this socialist model where these dudes are smoking pot and drinking booze while making artistic movies that are horrible to watch, or Hollywood model where it's all about making money with without any ambitions.

It's funny how Kaurismäki films get so much praise in foreign countries. I think they suck.

Finns are not very good at making films with good stories or original ideas. There are few exceptions though. There are some good finnish films that i haven't seen getting much praise. And those films that get praise suck in my opinion.

[Basillicus]

I think our war movies are OK, but they suffer from the fact that we have fought only one major war since early 19th century and there isn't much any material left for future movies. Historical war movies like Hornblower or Sharpe series would be nice though, and they should be pretty cheap to do also. All you need is some costumes, horses, swords and gun powder, no need for fancy CGI or tank/aircraft replicas. I want to see men firing volleys in tight formations and cavarly cutting them down with sabers, and a plotline containing honor, valor and beautiful duchesses with big bosoms in distress! woot

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

Oh noes. Slavs and finns share some same genes. Cannot be! Russia for Russians! :roll:
You like vodka? p-) "Finlandia"...

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

J.Kuperjanov-The Hero
you are sick
" C Hg N3 is Y- cromosom fenno-ugric variation."
Dr.Mengele would be happy with followers like you.
Haa-haa-haa!
I know that true makes a pain for russians.
If i tell true about history - then they call me nazi-fascist (btw Nr 1 fascist country is (and was) today Russia http://www.newsru.com/russia/13aug2007/video.html ).
And if i tell to you a fact about North-Russia russians genes, then i,m (and also scientists) sic and dr. Mengele...

PS! Read about True history:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Theodore.N.Kaufman/Germany.Must.Perish.htm

http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20061225.php

http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/new/article20080619_3.php

http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/new/article20080628.php

http://www.pseudology.org/evrei/irving_berlin11.htm

http://www.nazireich.net/ Sieg Gheil! Gheil Ghitler gaspodin! woot

[Mamont]

Haa-haa-haa!
I know that true makes a pain for russians. (verbal diarrhoea skipped)Are you feeling sick, my friend? Seems you had too many blue pills..

[ilmakas]

blah-blah-fukken-blah

kle, võta vähem vaiksemaks, pole mõtet mingeid konspiratsiooni teoreetikute saite linkida ning marurahvuslikku iba ajada.

There is no point for this thread, wild and incorrect BS from both sides. But then again, this is internet.... :roll:

[asch]

Haa-haa-haa!
I know that true makes a pain for russians.
why? feel free to answer my question this time.


And if i tell to you a fact about North-Russia russians genes, then i,m (and also scientists) sic and dr. Mengele...
obsession with genes is cool only if you are genetic scientist. otherwise it can have a bad end. like in Hitler case.



PS! Read about True history:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Theodore.N.Kaufman/Germany.Must.Perish.htm
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20061225.php
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/new/article20080619_3.php
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/new/article2008062.php (http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/new/article20080628.php)
http://www.pseudology.org/evrei/irving_berlin11.htm
http://www.nazireich.net/ Sieg Gheil! Gheil Ghitler gaspodin! woot
posting such links is prohibited by forum rules, i believe.

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

kle, võta vähem vaiksemaks, pole mõtet mingeid konspiratsiooni teoreetikute saite linkida ning marurahvuslikku iba ajada.

There is no point for this thread, wild and incorrect BS from both sides. But then again, this is internet.... :roll:
Uh-oh... Tegid püksi vä? :) Vahi näpp suus vene propagandat edasi, kui tahad. Keegi üritab ka vastu rünnata. Kui see sulle ei meeldi - lülita internet välja, või piirdu ainult Eesti suurima foorumiga :backhand:

Read this! http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bstephens/?id=110010345 You think that WSY is ultranationalists newspaper?

[tommy00]

It is a english-speaking forum, is it hard to understand:(

[Wall]

obsession with genes is cool only if you are genetic scientist. otherwise it can have a bad end. like in Hitler case.

Interested about topic = obession ?

[asch]

Interested about topic = obession ?

pushing your agenda = obsession.

?

[Wall]

Well i dont know is it "pushing your agenda" if someone tells about genetic science.

[asch]

Well i dont know is it "pushing your agenda" if someone tells about genetic science.

all people wanking about genetic purity don't remind me of labcoats working on cancer cure, only of consequences of Friedrich N. work.

p.s. yes, i don't like Russian ultranationalists too.
p.p.s. no, i'm a full blooded Russian.

[ilmakas]

Uh-oh... Tegid püksi vä? :) Vahi näpp suus vene propagandat edasi, kui tahad. Keegi üritab ka vastu rünnata. Kui see sulle ei meeldi - lülita internet välja, või piirdu ainult Eesti suurima foorumiga :backhand:

Read this! http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bstephens/?id=110010345 You think that WSY is ultranationalists newspaper?

Wow, you are an intelligent one :roll:. You sound no better than some russian loonies in this thread. Anyway, you should enable private messaging if you want a proper answer from me (tried to send you one...).

And that article is old news to me, as it is to anyone who has watched/read news about Russia since Putin came to power.

[Blackbeard]

J.Kuperjanov-The Provocateurwoot:hug:p-)

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

J.Kuperjanov-The Provocateurwoot:hug:p-)
So typical reaction. I dont be surprised...

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

Wow, you are an intelligent one :roll:. You sound no better than some russian loonies in this thread. Anyway, you should enable private messaging if you want a proper answer from me (tried to send you one...).

And that article is old news to me, as it is to anyone who has watched/read news about Russia since Putin came to power.
Thank you!
From Estonian history...During soviet deportations when they sending best part of our nations to the Siberia, there were many estonian "intelligents" who were biggest traitors and deporters. This spirit is still a live...
You are in enemy side my friend...sc intelligent. Intelligent is sama like passive homosexsual. He DONT do nothing...

[kalkun]

Thank you!
From Estonian history...During soviet deportations when they sending best part of our nations to the Siberia, there were many estonian "intelligents" who were biggest traitors and deporters. This spirit is still a live...
You are in enemy side my friend...sc intelligent. Intelligent is sama like passive homosexsual. He DONT do nothing...

Wtf is your problem I hope your not a skin or something. And get a new user name, your doing sh!t commercial to Kuperjanov.

Alexandr, maybe it's time to ask a mod to close this thread?

[J.Kuperjanov-The Hero]

HTML clipboard What is your problem? You too dont like truth about history? Oled vist sügaval tiblade p.... pugenud? Laulad täpselt sama laulu, mida vene shovinistid siin. Kui ei meeldi ajalugu ja selle käsitlus - siis tembeldatakse kohe skinniks ja fašistiks...

Wtf you think you are? You have big gun, so you thibk you are some estonian Rambo or even God??? Take your gun man, enter to the WC and push the trigger...

And get a new user name, your doing sh!t commercial to Kuperjanov.
Shut up Kalkun-Turkey! Kuperjanov was estonian patriot. He dont grying like baby for help...Al help, Al help...Your name is brilliant man! Internet Rambo... (käi poisike mõni tõsisem armee läbi, siis tule siin kedagi paika panema. Krdi Kalkuni-Tolkus

[kosse]

Hey stop it Kuperjanov, you are making Soviet fanboy club look good.

[kalkun]

Since when have I stepped into the same box with Russians? None of my posts are indicating this.
My point is, what your doing is useless, it wont, work not in here.

And don't fvcking accuse me in being wannabe rambo. I have probably done more for Estonia than you have and I'll never betray Estonia, I have given the oath.

[CHERK]

"If in Latvia you were passed by Estonian is means you are a Fin."
:lol: