Turkish Chief prosecutor: Close down the governing party [Archive]

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 06:10 AM

And finally;

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/8243/5908243.gif

Turkey's chief prosecutor has appeared before the country's Constitutional Court calling for the governing party to be closed down.

Founded by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Justice and Development Party, the AKP, won a landslide victory in the last election.

But its critics say it is trying to impose Sharia law on the secular state.

The party's attempt to ease a ban on

the wearing of the Islamic headscarf is expected to be central to the evidence.

Prosecutor Abdurraham Yalcinkaya, who has argued that the party has become the focal point of anti-secular activities in Turkey, is appearing before judges in a closed-door session.

"This risk has been increasing every day" reads the 162-page petition submitted to the Constitutional Court by Mr Yalcinkaya.

"The danger is clear and concrete. There is no other way to protect society than to close the party down," it reads.

He is calling for the prime minister, president and 69 other party members to be banned from politics.

The AKP has condemned the case as an assault on democracy. A team representing the party are expected to present their defence on Thursday.

The EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn has warned the case could jeopardise Turkey's bid to join the bloc - arguing such disputes should be resolved through the ballot box, not the courts.

'Plotters' held

The AKP was formed after a previous pro-Islamic party was banned. Its founders have since steered a moderate path, pursuing democratic reforms and directing Turkey towards the EU, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford.

But they spent their political youth in the ranks of an overtly Islamist movement - and ardent secularists do not believe their views have changed.

As the hearing opened, Turkish media said police had made a series of arrests of people believed to be linked to an anti-government network.

Two retired generals and a senior journalist were detained during an early morning swoop which broadcasters said was part of an investigation into an ultra-nationalist grouping called Ergenekon.

The group is reported to have planned political disturbances and is accused of trying to organise a coup against the government. The police have made no official comment on the arrests.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7482793.stm

Now, stock market down, Euro up...There are some ongoing arrests against some secular parties

- Old 1. Army Commander General Hursit Tolon
- Ataturk Counsel Society Chief and Old Gendairme Commander Seref Uygur
- Cumhuriyet Newspaper Ankara Attorney Mustafa Balbay
- Ankara Chamber of Commerce President Sinan Aygün
- Tercuman Newspaper Executive Editor Ufuk Buyukcelebi

and 20 person arrested at same day.

woww....

I hope we will swiftly get out these cases. No way to their so-called Islamic roots, no way to sharia...This country is a secular,laic,democratic,rule of law country.

my warmest,
CDTRF

Herman the II

07-01-2008, 06:20 AM

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 06:24 AM

- Ati Technology Private Healt Service Com.and General Manager Professor Dr. Ercument Ovali arrested at Trabzon, taken to Istanbul...

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 06:28 AM

Let me get that straight: Is the AKP already forbidden now or is that just the beginning of the trail? The ban of the AKP was discussed before, right?

I hope every thing turns out right for your country..

Not forbidden yet. But the chief prosecutor made his verbal statement today.

Thanks for your kindly hope.We hope too. There are some weird things happening here. Some generals,senior newspaper journalists,professor arresting at the same time while prosecutor announces the close down governing party.

Bushranger

07-01-2008, 06:33 AM

As Ataturk decreed if they start pushing the islamic way upon the country send in the Army. Turkey must stay secular.

kosse

07-01-2008, 06:40 AM

Won't this cause huge unrest in the country?

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 07:17 AM

Won't this cause huge unrest in the country?

There are laws that everybody has to obey here. Turkey is not a tribe type country.

Afro-European

07-01-2008, 07:26 AM

Won't this cause huge unrest in the country?
It won't,like the headscarfs thing didn't.

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 08:30 AM

- Old Colonel arrested at Antalya
- Old Brigadier General wanted
- Old Akp Member of Parliment wanted

there is really really strange things occuring here...:-(

Bushranger

07-01-2008, 08:32 AM

- Old Colonel arrested at Antalya
- Old Brigadier General wanted
- Old Akp Member of Parliment wanted

there is really really strange things occuring here...:-(

Who is ordering there detention????

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 08:36 AM

Who is ordering there detention????

it is alleged Istanbul Ergenekon case prosecutor but The prosecutor says "I didn't"....We do not understand what is happenning.

10 bl dollars that stock exchange lost in one day
EURO - USD up and up...

what the hell is doing?

Winger

07-01-2008, 08:41 AM

I hope that Turkey gets back on track with the more secular government it used to have by ridding this party.

Bushranger

07-01-2008, 08:41 AM

Strange Old military are being arrested didnt think they were on the govt side.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 09:44 AM

Strange Old military are being arrested didnt think they were on the govt side.

I think you misunderstood the situation..and you're right to do so..everyone is confused now.

These ex military are being detained with the accusation of conspiracy to throwing the current Islamic Erdogan gov't. They are not the only ones...secular journalists, secular NGO leaders, ex-supreme court judges..even the ex Erdogan gov't MPs who are opposing to them now after figuring out what they're up to...being arrested (all together 60 ppl..only 20 today and more expected). There are ppl in jail w/out trial for 13 months now..all of them have one thing in common...they all are secularists and oppose to the current Islamic gov't and their agenda. Strange enough..all this happenes on the day head judge makes his verbal accusations against Erdogan gov't.

It looks like Islamic gov't started an counter revolution against secular system.

God help us...this is going to get ugly. :(

REACTION - High-profile names detained in Turkeyhttp://www.hurriyet.com.tr/p/english2008/spacer.gifHere are some reactions to the detainment of 20 people, including two retired generals, an anti-AKP journalist and a business leader, under the Ergenekon operation.

YILMAZ ATES - DEPUTY LEADER OF CHP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/CHP/)
"It seems like a campaign has started against those people who support national unity, and the integration of this country as well as a democratic and secular republic. Unfortunately the main actors of this campaign are the government and its supporters. We will pursue this. I hope the indictment is announced as soon as possible."

Zeki Sezer (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Zeki_Sezer/) - LEADER OF DSP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/dsp/) (DEMOCRATIC LEFTIST PARTY)
"This operation took place as the chief prosecutor had been delivering his verbal arguments. The public's attention intentionally had been averted. First the owner of Cumhuriyet daily had been detained in a very nasty way. And now, Mr. Mustafa Balbay. Nobody will benefit from confronting the nation and the judiciary."

TAYFUN ICLI – DEPUTY OF THE DSP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/dsp/)
"The investigation is not being held on June 29, but today, on a day when the top prosecutor of the Court of Appeals would present his claims. They harm the principles of secularism and the social state. Only the principle of the rule of law remained and now they are harming this by attacking the judiciary and bringing society head to head with the judiciary. This is an unacceptable course of conduct."

EMINE AYNA - DTP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/DTP/) PARLIMANTARY GROUP LEADER
"The AKP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/AKP/) has been conducting this operation in line with its political program. Carrying out this operation on the same day as the verbal indictment is given in the closure case against the AKP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/AKP/) has created legitimate question marks in the public opinion. It is impossible to think the choice of the date to implement a court decision, which had been taken days ago, is coincidence."

SUAY KARAMAN – KDD GENERAL SECRETARY
"A civil coup is being implemented by the ruling body in Turkey. And all patriots have started to be detained within the context of this coup. We will see the consequences soon. This operation will be broken at a point and will rebound. The top prosecutor gave his testimony regarding the ruling AKP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/AKP/)'s closure case today. This incident obviously is a move by the ruling AKP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/AKP/) against the testimony of the top prosecutor."

G-9 JOURNALISTS’ PLATFORM:
“Such methods of arrests and forays towards media institutions are perceived as efforts to deter opposition journalists, and also to damage the prestige of the country. The Ergenekon (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/Ergenekon/) operation, of which indictment has not been submitted yet, force society and the media to take a side, revealing itself with another series of detainments particularly at each stage in the AKP (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/index/AKP/) closure case. And unfortunately journalists that take sides in a militant manner may also follow a route targeting each other. We want to state that this situation would further harm confidence in the media.”

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/9325311.asp?gid=244&sz=94596

kosse

07-01-2008, 09:45 AM

There are laws that everybody has to obey here. Turkey is not a tribe type country.

I don't think it's about being tribal or not. You'd propably see riots in every western country if somehow a major party would be banned (which is not possible, luckily).

It won't,like the headscarfs thing didn't.

This is a bit bigger than some meaningless headscarf ban..

Winger

07-01-2008, 09:46 AM

I think you misunderstood the situation..and you're right to do so..everyone is confused now.

These ex military are being detained with the accusation of conspiracy to throwing the current Islamic Erdogan gov't. They are not the only ones...secular journalists, secular NGO leaders, ex-supreme court judges..even the ex Erdogan gov't MPs who are opposing to them now after figuring out what they're up to...being arrested( all together 60 ppl..only 20 today and more exoected). There are ppl in jail w/out trial for 13 months now..all of them have one thing in common...they all are secularists and oppose to the current Islamic gov't and their agenda.

God help us...this is ***** ugly. :(

Extremism of the regional flavor rears its ugly head.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 09:50 AM

Baning a political party, that has won the elections is something extreme either way one might look at it. I mean some MILLIONS voted for this government. One must start asking some serious questions in Turkey about how could a party that has a religious frame (fundamentalist or moderate) come to power and I am not biased because it is a muslim party, I would be equally troubled if a Christian party won the elections in a western country. Religion and politics is by itself dangerous as is any ideology that promotes a dogmatic approach.

Another question one should ask is whether or not the AKP is a radical Islamic party that falls into the same category as Hamas and Hizbolah. Of course it doesn't. Just because we are triggered to jump every time we hear "islam" it doesn't mean that the AKP wants to turn Turkey to Iran.

As Ataturk decreed if they start pushing the islamic way upon the country send in the Army. Turkey must stay secular.

So what if you don't vote like the military overlords command we send in the tanks. WOW now that is superdemocratic.

Turkey should get its **** together and try to evolve into a western type democracy by addressing the issues that push people either to the extreme right or to religion. I hope all evolves well in the end. Peace to us all.

Bushranger

07-01-2008, 09:52 AM

Can some 1 explain, how did this Govt get elected being what they stand for?? why wasnt a more secular driven party elected??

Amateur

07-01-2008, 10:07 AM

Strange Old military are being arrested didnt think they were on the govt side.

They 're not; they were part of a plot called "Ergenekon (http://www.*******.com/article/worldNews/idUSL266078220080126)" staged by the army and the "deep state" in order to overthrow the islamist government, as the BBC story also points out. Looks like Erdogan is striking back at them now.

Now to the main issue: although an islamist government in Turkey is not a rosy prospect for anyone, I don't think banning the majority political party is a good idea. I would put some emphasis on the following parts of the BBC story:

Founded by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Justice and Development Party, the AKP, won a landslide victory in the last election.
...
The EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn has warned the case could jeopardise Turkey's bid to join the bloc - arguing such disputes should be resolved through the ballot box, not the courts.

Banning a political party, particularly an obviously popular one that has recently been elected to government, is not a good step, regardless of the motives. I 'd say let them govern for a term or two, experience the inevitable losses of attrition that governance brings, and come back to the opposition benches. That's what's called democracy.

Afro-European

07-01-2008, 10:08 AM

This is a bit bigger than some meaningless headscarf ban..
The military 'd take care of trouble makers.Can't let Turkey slide into a Islamic state.Back in 1997,the military forced the then Islamist prime minister Necmettin Erbakan to stand down for "islamic tendancies".Nobody protested.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 10:09 AM

Baning a political party, that has won the elections is something extreme either way one might look at it. I mean some MILLIONS voted for this government. One must start asking some serious questions in Turkey about how could a party that has a religious frame (fundamentalist or moderate) come to power and I am not biased because it is a muslim party, I would be equally troubled if a Christian party won the elections in a western country. Religion and politics is by itself dangerous as is any ideology that promotes a dogmatic approach.

They've won 47% of the votes..that sounds enough, but since you're questioning whether their Islamic agenda is true or not, it's important to mention that only 20% of the 47% is their true hard core voters..rest is made out of pro EU liberals/business ppl voting for them due to their false pro EU stand. Most of the liberal wing has figured them out now..they simply don't have their votes any longer.

Another question one should ask is whether or not the AKP is a radical Islamic party that falls into the same category as Hamas and Hizbolah. Of course it doesn't. Just because we are triggered to jump every time we hear "islam" it doesn't mean that the AKP wants to turn Turkey to Iran.

You should not be quick to declare them "democrats"..remember Erdogan directly invited Hamas leader to Turkey..and he came..they don't see them as terrorist organization for sure.

...and I won't even go into why does the Greeks supports/talks on the behalf of this Islamic gov't that's about to demolish Turkey's secular Kemalist system.

Afro-European

07-01-2008, 10:14 AM

Can some 1 explain, how did this Govt get elected being what they stand for?? why wasnt a more secular driven party elected??
The APK didn't run on an "islamic agenda".In fact people prefered this party coz they were tired of the previous ineffective and corrupt government of Bulent Ecevit(the guy was dying back then).So they didn't have a clear choice,i can say.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 10:20 AM

The APK didn't run on an "islamic agenda".In fact people prefered this party coz they were tired of the previous ineffective and corrupt government of Bulent Ecevit(the guy was dying back then).So they didn't have a clear choice,i can say.

Actually..some ppl voted for his Islamic roots and most for their EU membership promisses. As for corruption..you're right to some extend..but this gov't has been so far the most corrupt gov't in the history of Turkish repuplic..but since they have a majority in the parliament..nothing sticks to them.

NathS

07-01-2008, 10:37 AM

Actually..some ppl voted for his Islamic roots and most for their EU membership promisses. As for corruption..you're right to some extend..but this gov't has been so far the most corrupt gov't in the history of Turkish repuplic..but since they have a majority in the parliament..nothing sticks to them.

I also wonder if the severe financial crisis that happened in Turkey in 2001 played a role.
It seems that during troubled times like this, people tend to distrust "mainstream" parties and to support more "extreme" ones (see for example the Europe during the Thirties, with a strong push from either socialists/communists on one side and fascists on the other, most of their voters being neither hardcore Bolsheviks or antisemits).

Just my 2 cents, turkish members are probably better informed than me.

PS : just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that AKP=Hitler=Socialists. I do not want to be misinterpret :)

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 10:45 AM

I also wonder if the severe financial crisis that happened in Turkey in 2001 played a role.
It seems that during troubled times like this, people tend to distrust "mainstream" parties and to support more "extreme" ones (see for example the Europe during the Thirties, with a strong push from either socialists/communists on one side and fascists on the other, most of their voters being neither hardcore Bolsheviks or antisemits).

Just my 2 cents, turkish members are probably better informed than me.

PS : just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that AKP=Hitler=Socialists. I do not want to be misinterpret :)

Of course the 2001 crises had a lot to do with their success..that's the point. They really took an advantage of the situation with saying the correct things back then..i.e EU membership promisses.

Unfortunatelly ppl bought it.

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 10:46 AM

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 11:03 AM

They've won 47% of the votes..that sounds enough, but since you're questioning whether their Islamic agenda is true or not, it's important to mention that only 20% of the 47% is their true hard core voters..rest is made out of pro EU liberals/business ppl voting for them due to their false pro EU stand. Most of the liberal wing has figured them out now..they simply don't have their votes any longer.

You should not be quick to declare them "democrats"..remember Erdogan directly invited Hamas leader to Turkey..and he came..they don't see them as terrorist organization for sure.

...and I won't even go into why does the Greeks supports/talks on the behalf of this Islamic gov't that's about to demolish Turkey's secular Kemalist system.

You should get out of your "the Greeks are gonna get us" train. I can't speak for my nation but I don't like the nationalist-militarist elite that has ruled Turkey since the 1950's junta any more than a possible Islamo-fascist regime. What happens to you affects us. Saying that don't get the impression that makes us best of friends. There are issues to be resolved but that is more likely to happen with a democratic regime and not with what you have right now. Peace and stability is what every sane person wants and that applies for both our people.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 11:11 AM

Banning a political party, particularly an obviously popular one that has recently been elected to government, is not a good step, regardless of the motives. I 'd say let them govern for a term or two, experience the inevitable losses of attrition that governance brings, and come back to the opposition benches. That's what's called democracy.

Not if the ideology in power has no relation with democracy (Erdogan in many speeches has referred to sharia laws).

During the last six years of their rule, they have infiltrated 100.000 like minded ppl into the secular institutions. When they take over these key inst. such as secular judicary, they will have no problems with changing the secular const. with the more Islamic...eventually sharia.

So...there will be no going back to democracy in couple years once they change the const. that is actually the only thing on their way.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 11:15 AM

You should get out of your "the Greeks are gonna get us" train. I can't speak for my nation but I don't like the nationalist-militarist elite that has ruled Turkey since the 1950's junta any more than a possible Islamo-fascist regime.

You actually prove me right with your words. The only thing Erdogan gov't and the Greeks has in common is the secular Kemalist regime that has fought against them in the past.

Your govern. prefers this Islamic gov't to a secular Kemalist regime due to their bitternest against Atatürk.

...and yes.. it is that "nationalist-militarist elite" kept Turkey different from the rest of the countries in whole of the Muslim world.

I still prefer that to any Islamo-fascist regime any day.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 11:26 AM

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 11:35 AM

Bull.... Read first, rant later. That is not what I said. Read the full post, not the stub that suits your fears. Plus I said I am against a possible Islamo-fascist regime, not just the right/ extreme right.

Also a democracy evolves. I does not stay stagnant to the past. Kemal made these reforms as a foundation to built upon, not brood upon. Face it, a true democracy does not need chaperone's and guardians outside its banks. Otherwise it is not a democracy at all. It is "we the people", not "we the people, as long as it is ok with the clergy, military, my left nut".

Not if the ideology in power has no relation with democracy (Erdogan in many speeches has referred to sharia laws).

During the last six years of their rule, they have infiltrated 100.000 like minded ppl into the secular institutions. When they take over these key inst. such as secular judicary, they will have no problems with changing the secular const. with the more Islamic...eventually sharia.

So...there will be no going back to democracy in couple years once they change the const. that is actually the only thing on their way.

So it is either junta or sharia. Both are a catastrophe for everyone and no it is not choosing one of lesser evils. they are equally evil. Dude what have you been doing these decades ?

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 11:35 AM

Bull.... Read first, rant later. That is not what I said. Read the full post, not the stub that suits your fears. Plus I said I am against a possible Islamo-fascist regime, not just the right/ extreme right.

Also a democracy evolves. I does not stay stagnant to the past. Kemal made these reforms as a foundation to built upon, not brood upon. Face it, a true democracy does not need chaperone's and guardians outside its banks. Otherwise it is not a democracy at all. It is "we the people", not "we the people, as long as it is ok with the clergy, military, my left nut".

Bla..bla bla my Greek friend. read my post below and see if democracy being used as a tool here. You know this, I know this..and veryone know it.

You still support this gov't due to your own agenda..not in the name of democracy.

Not if the ideology in power has no relation with democracy (Erdogan in many speeches has referred to sharia laws).

During the last six years of their rule, they have infiltrated 100.000 like minded ppl into the secular institutions. When they take over these key inst. such as secular judicary, they will have no problems with changing the secular const. with the more Islamic...eventually sharia.

So...there will be no going back to democracy in couple years once they change the const. that is actually the only thing on their way.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 11:36 AM

sorry I double posted. Read the post prior to your own.

Also what we support, IF you bothered to actually read my whole posts, is first and foremost our hides. We do it better if you get out of your stupid Islam or extreme right cesspool you call your current political reality.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 11:40 AM

So it is either junta or sharia. Both are a catastrophe for everyone and no it is not choosing one of lesser evils. they are equally evil. Dude what have you been doing these decades ?

You call it "Junta" due to the reasons I've already mentioned...interesting enough though..the only ones agrees with you guys are the pro-sharia Islamists and the current gov't in Turkey...and these ppl have no democray traditions due to their Islamic ideology.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 11:45 AM

If the tanks start rolling what should I call it, "Marti Gra"? Leave the mullahs to their bigotry. The entire E.U and the U.S with their reason want TRUE democracy.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 12:00 PM

If the tanks start rolling what should I call it, "Marti Gra"? Leave the mullahs to their bigotry. The entire E.U and the U.S with their reason want TRUE democracy.

Look my Greek friend,

My counrty is on the edge of major crises and I have no time to satisfy your personal issues with the secular Turkish state. If you're so pro-democracy and pro muslims, start with allowing the Muslim (Turkish) minority in your country choose their own mufti among themselves and stop appointing one from the Greek state. The last thime they chose their own mufti, you guys throw him in jail with the accusations of being Turkish state spy.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 12:08 PM

Whatever. I am not going to reverse your brainwashing. You got a major crisis, the we have a major crisis. Thats it. No more, no less. We want stability and democracy for you because in the end it suits us too. Counter to what you believe we don't stay up at night plotting the destruction of your nation. Want to stay in your hate corner thats fine with me.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 12:09 PM

+1, this situation can not be acceptable. Why all these people has been arrested in one day? what do they plan? what is their intention to arrest all well-known people? professors? generals? journalists?

Bro..It's either the beginning of counter revolution or they're trying to provoke the military with these action. Either way...one thing for sure...they're hoping to benefit fron the any of the options.

Amateur

07-01-2008, 12:22 PM

Not if the ideology in power has no relation with democracy (Erdogan in many speeches has referred to sharia laws).

During the last six years of their rule, they have infiltrated 100.000 like minded ppl into the secular institutions. When they take over these key inst. such as secular judicary, they will have no problems with changing the secular const. with the more Islamic...eventually sharia.

So...there will be no going back to democracy in couple years once they change the const. that is actually the only thing on their way.

Ok, I see your point, but what if this is the will of the people's majority?
You can't just ignore their will. Not only because (a) there is no greater authority to legitimize such curtailing of the people's will, but also because (b) the people will react and there will be crisis.

Turkey is only the tip of the iceberg here; we westerners easily speak about spreading democracy in the muslim world, but we tend to ignore the fact that democracy in muslim countries can easily lead to islamist regimes. What do you do about that? It's a tough question, I admit. But I don't think that banning the governing party is the suitable answer.

Oh, and by the way: it's irrational to think that Greece would prefer an islamist regime in Turkey to a kemalist one. What we want is stability in Turkey, and I don't think any of the two options is preferable; what I would like to see prevail in Turkey is a third option, i.e. a western type democracy. But it seems Turkey has a long way to go before that.

I do hope this ends up well :roll:

Mr.Flint

07-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Vorian

07-01-2008, 01:04 PM

Just one observation....how can a party that tries to get Turkey in EU and promote economy conspiring to implement Sharia?

That's ridiculous. Yes AKP does want to curb the extreme secularism of the country but you guys take it directly to the other opposite.
World ain't black & white. There many stages between secularism and Sharia law.

Amateur

07-01-2008, 01:23 PM

Im curious, would you people allow Nazis to be elected, and kept in power despite the direct violations of the constitution? (this is NOT directed to turks)
Because right now, this is what you are doing, Islamists=Nazis
Well that's the whole problem isn't it?
"Should democracy apply to the foes of democracy too" etc.
A pretty old discussion indeed; my position would be this:
One should definitely accept any party being elected by the people's vote, as the legitimate government; and one should firmly resist its acts once (and if) it would start demolishing democratic institutions. I know it's not easy to stop them once in office; it didn't work for the Germans, that's true. But it could work with a conscious and militant electorate, and I see no other logical solution. You can't just erase the people's vote - where do you get the legitimacy to do that? From which higher authority?

Mr.Flint

07-01-2008, 01:40 PM

Amateur

07-01-2008, 01:50 PM

The Constitution? Constitutional Court? (or similar institution)
Those are the tools that are used to protect minorities from majorities, those are the tools that keep the idiot pleb in line, without those we would have Nazis, or Commies in power, in most western nations.
Protecting minorities from majorities is one thing; annulling the results of fair elections and dictating that the elected government should step down is quite another. "The idiot pleb" have a right to govern themselves as they like, regardless of what you or me think of them and their choices. Within the framework of the constitution, of course - I fully agree with you there. But exactly what violations of the turkish constitution is the islamist government actually being accused of? Allowing headscarfs? Does that legitimize their ousting?

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 01:50 PM

Well that's the whole problem isn't it?
"Should democracy apply to the foes of democracy too" etc.
A pretty old discussion indeed; my position would be this:
One should definitely accept any party being elected by the people's vote, as the legitimate government; and one should firmly resist its acts once (and if) it would start demolishing democratic institutions. I know it's not easy to stop them once in office; it didn't work for the Germans, that's true. But it could work with a conscious and militant electorate, and I see no other logical solution. You can't just erase the people's vote - where do you get the legitimacy to do that? From which higher authority?

Sorry, but yes as Mr Flint says the constitutional court has the authority.
The question is why didn't it intervene before the elections
Another question is why AKP was voted the legitimate government

So in your respective posts you are both right. Every nation has the governments it votes, but the higher law is the constitution.

We tend however to forget that the political establishment in Turkey is by no means simmilar to western standards. In what western country do the politicians have to ask the blessings of the military? And in what western power does the ruling elite have to get the seal of approval by the military?

This is not a democracy Vs Islam battle as we would recognize in the west, but more a military Vs moderate Islam struggle.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 01:51 PM

Just one observation....how can a party that tries to get Turkey in EU and promote economy conspiring to implement Sharia?

Vorian,

I always follow your posts on this forum and I value them..so what I'm about to say is very sincere.

You can not observe the things about these ppl deeply simply just for being on the other side of the pond. These ppl knows that Turkey will never be admitted to EU..so does the 20% hard core Islamist supporters of them..and they don't want to be a member ( Just a two years ago, Erdogan wanted to pass a law that crimilizes adultery..a pro EU person would never try something like this)

Other 27% of the 47% votes they got(which are pro EU all kinds of ppl) still falls for the EU card he uses.(lately persentage of thse ppl also dropped when they saw the real face of this gov't..esp. in the second term)

Turkish Support for Joining EU Plunges, Poll Shows (Update2)

By James G. Neuger

Sept. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Turkish support for joining the European Union is plunging and barely a quarter of the population expects the nation to become a member, a survey showed.
Only 40 percent of Turks think EU membership would be a ``good thing,'' down from 54 percent last year and 73 percent in 2004, according to a poll released today by the German Marshall Fund (http://www.gmfus.org/) of the United States and the Italian foundation Compagnia di San Paolo (http://www.compagnia.torino.it/). European support for Turkey joining the EU stayed at 21 percent

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=az3mrvNAaUFY&refer=europe

After all...it's not about how bad we want to join the club...if it can be stopped with the 51% votes of French and Austrian public, it will not happen. Now..what are the chances of these ppl voting for Turkey's membership?? NON!

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 02:08 PM

Sorry, but yes as Mr Flint says the constitutional court has the authority.
The question is why didn't it intervene before the elections
Another question is why AKP was voted the legitimate government

It is exactly for the same reason as you try to promote on their behalf...Democracy.

If you study their party program, you see there is nothing about what they're doing today..it all looks as legit as any other democratic political party...and in their first term, they generally stuck to it. But now it's their second term and they've come back to power with a greater vote due to their first term actions (which seem ok for most) This time they feel stronger to bring out their real agenda and they put it to works. They've recently tried to change the unchangable articles in the const. which is the secular system..and their up coming trial is based on this move. The cont. court could not try to take an action before they actually tryed to chance the secular system.

This is not a democracy Vs Islam battle as we would recognize in the west, but more a military Vs moderate Islam struggle.

This is excatly what it is..It is the democratic secular sytems struggle agains the political Islam(which is the most dangerous kind)..if the democratic system is being used to destory the very same system they used to come to power..they will be stopped by the inst. which has duty to protect the secular system. If they're left alone, they will change the structure of all the secular inst. that prevents them from doing this. They will be able to pass the laws as they wish when the ppl at these valves changed with like minded ppl as themselves.

GREEK71AIRBORNE

07-01-2008, 02:15 PM

The military 'd take care of trouble makers.Can't let Turkey slide into a Islamic state.Back in 1997,the military forced the then Islamist prime minister Necmettin Erbakan to stand down for "islamic tendancies".Nobody protested.

Im curious, would you people allow Nazis to be elected, and kept in power despite the direct violations of the constitution? (this is NOT directed to turks)
Because right now, this is what you are doing, Islamists=Nazis

Guys please explain to me something.
If i understood correctly the todays government of Turkey is an Islamic Government. So Turkey is an Islamic state, like Iran?
So this Islamic State of Turkey is arresting generals who was ready to make a military coup in order to throw the islamic government, and establish a jounta like Pakistan!
So (again if I understood correctly) Turkey will either have an Islamic Government like Iran or a military Jounta like Pakistan?

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 02:16 PM

It is exactly for the same reason as you try to promote on their behalf...Democracy.

If you study their party program, you see there is nothing about what they're doing today..it all looks as legit as any other democratic political party...and in their first term, they generally stuck to it. But now it's their second term and they've come back to power with a greater vote due to their first term actions (which seem ok for most) This time they feel stronger to bring out their real agenda and they put it to works. They've recently tried to change the unchangable articles in the const. which is the secular system..and their up coming trial is based on this move. The cont. court could not try to take an action before they actually tryed to chance the secular system.

This is excatly what it is..It is the democratic secular sytems struggle agains the political Islam..if the democratic system is being used to destory the very same system they used to come to power..they will be stopped by the inst. which has duty to protect the secular system. If they're left alone, they will change the structure of all the secular inst. that prevents them from doing this. They will be able to pass the laws as they wish when the ppl at these valves changed with like minded ppl as themselves.

By western standards that is nuts. Such a move would be the total collapse of democracy in Turkey. It is a lose-lose situation. Very sad. Hope some kind of miracle emerges or I see really bad days in front of the whole region.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 02:21 PM

Guys please explain to me something.
If i understood correctly the todays government of Turkey is an Islamic Government. So Turkey is an Islamic state, like Iran?
So this Islamic State of Turkey is arresting generals who was ready to make a military coup in order to throw the islamic government, and establish a jounta like Pakistan!
So (again if I understood correctly) Turkey will either have an Islamic Government like Iran or a military Jounta like Pakistan?

You're doing pretty good job by confusing ppl..but no way mate. It's not the same..you can use peoples' lack of knowledge in general about Turkey's secular system..but the situation is not same and ppl here are smarter than that not to fall into your Greek POV of the situation ;)

Peris

07-01-2008, 02:24 PM

The last thime they chose their own mufti, you guys throw him in jail with the accusations of being Turkish state spy.

wasn't he?

deli_dumrul

07-01-2008, 02:25 PM

By western standards that is nuts. Such a move would be the total collapse of democracy in Turkey. It is a lose-lose situation. Very sad. Hope some kind of miracle emerges or I see really bad days in front of the whole region.

Nope, nothing will happen... Democracy would be restored by the military (the only military in the world who had done this over and over). At the end of the day, only the EU wannabees will be the ones crying.

##################

For people who do not know, this is not the first time this is happening.

Here is a similar story of a man (another prime minister who got 52% of the vote) who tried to close the opposing party, and ended up, well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Menderes

Another day, another vendetta.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 02:25 PM

By western standards that is nuts. Such a move would be the total collapse of democracy in Turkey. It is a lose-lose situation. Very sad. Hope some kind of miracle emerges or I see really bad days in front of the whole region.

If the secular Turkey had the same support from EU that Austria had when Jorg Haider became part of the winning side in the elections.-instead of supporting the Erdogan gov't - we would not have to see this day today.

Peris

07-01-2008, 02:30 PM

the Turkish military establishment will not fear to act in order to protect their status quo. Let's hope they will not use a Greek -Turkish clash as a distraction to the current situation.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

the Turkish military establishment will not fear to act in order to protect their status quo. Let's hope they will not use a Greek -Turkish clash as a distraction to the current situation.

Please try not the derail the thread by pulling in the Turkish-Greek issues again. We are trying tho explain ppl what's going on in Turkey right now.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Mr.Flint

07-01-2008, 02:38 PM

Protecting minorities from majorities is one thing; annulling the results of fair elections and dictating that the elected government should step down is quite another. "The idiot pleb" have a right to govern themselves as they like, regardless of what you or me think of them and their choices. Within the framework of the constitution, of course - I fully agree with you there. But exactly what violations of the turkish constitution is the islamist government actually being accused of? Allowing headscarfs? Does that legitimize their ousting?
The part i bolded is exactly what im talking about, the idiot pleb if given the freedom, would wipe their arses with the constitution, and go on a lynching rampage.
as for examples, well there is the headscarf thing, which is merely a symptom, then the attempt to enact adultery laws, then the number of blasphemy cases, etc. and im certain there is much more, that is detailed in the prosecution case.
You see, no one attempts a military overthrow, everything done in legal terms, the prosecution made its case, and its up to the court to decide if those violations of the constitutions are valid grounds for dismissal and banning of the ruling party (who in turn obviously can defend themselves and even appeal)

Sorry, but yes as Mr Flint says the constitutional court has the authority.
The question is why didn't it intervene before the elections
Another question is why AKP was voted the legitimate government
Maybe because the AKP did not provide sufficient reasons for intervention before the election, and that their real agenda showed up only after they were voted in?

I find it amusing that the biggest protectors of islamic democracy here are Greeks...

Is it so hard to understand that, proven in court, violations of the constitution can be sufficient grounds for removal and banning of the ruling party?

Peris

07-01-2008, 02:42 PM

I find it amusing that the biggest protectors of islamic democracy here are Greeks...

of the people's democratic will i would say. You and many others are not familiar with the games played by the generals in Turkey to assist their image as protectors of Turkey and such. Anyway just watch the state of Greek Turkish relations from today and so on if the situation in Turkey becomes worse.

Peris

07-01-2008, 02:43 PM

Please try not the derail the thread by pulling in the Turkish-Greek issues again. .

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 02:48 PM

of the people's democratic will i would say. You and many others are not familiar with the games played by the generals in Turkey to assist their image as protectors of Turkey and such.

These are the generals which kept Turkey secular from the first day of the establishmet of the Turkish republic..the one and the only of its kind in the Muslim world.

Of course they are the same generals who kicked your asses in the last two wars we had in our recent history.

I'm sorry to put it this way..but you're pushing it by hiding behind your own issues with the Turkish state..you're not sincere about this democracy thingy.

Mr.Flint

07-01-2008, 02:54 PM

of the people's democratic will i would say. You and many others are not familiar with the games played by the generals in Turkey to assist their image as protectors of Turkey and such. Anyway just watch the state of Greek Turkish relations from today and so on if the situation in Turkey becomes worse.
Would you equally supportive of the "people's democratic will" if they decide to exterminate/expel some minority? or create an islamic republic in the image of Iran? or even worse, a Sultanate in an image of Saudi Arabia? or to declare war on Greece?

deli_dumrul

07-01-2008, 02:55 PM

GREEK71AIRBORNE

07-01-2008, 03:02 PM

You're doing pretty good job by confusing ppl..but no way mate. It's not the same..you can use peoples' lack of knowledge in general about Turkey's secular system..but the situation is not same and ppl here are smarter than that not to fall into your Greek POV of the situation ;)

So... its not the same? Please explain me why?
Where is the difference? in the Turkey-Iran example or in the Turkey-Pakistan example?
Let me be honest. I don't believe that todays Turkeyis an Islamic State like Iran. But this is what i hear from turks here, that the AKP are Jihadis etc etc
Now some of you believe that banning a political party, that has recently been elected to government with a clear win and great distance from the second, Its a good thing to do!

Excuse me but that is not democracy. That is a Jounta. Or is it not? So what is the difference from Pakistan when General Musharaf made a military coup so that the Pakistani Islamists stay away from the Government?

Peris

07-01-2008, 03:02 PM

These are the generals which kept Turkey secular from the first day of the establishmet of the Turkish republic..the one and the only of its kind in the Muslim world.

Of course they are the same generals who kicked your asses in the last two wars we had in our recent history.

I'm sorry to put it this way..but you're pushing it by hiding behind your own issues with the Turkish state..you're not sincere about this democracy thingy.

These Turkish generals also deprived some 50 minorities in Turkey from their democratic rights and commited some massacres against Greek and Armenian populations but let's stay on topic.

And if you talk about what happened in these two wars open a new thread and we discuss it.

My first post is not related to the core of Greek Turkish dispute but we are affected by inner politics of Turkey.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 03:02 PM

These are the generals which kept Turkey secular from the first day of the establishmet of the Turkish republic..the one and the only of its kind in the Muslim world.

Of course they are the same generals who kicked your asses in the last two wars we had in our recent history.

I'm sorry to put it this way..but you're pushing it by hiding behind your own issues with the Turkish state..you're not sincere about this democracy thingy.

What democracy? The kind when your parliament, and by extend the people, have to ask permission from the military in order to pass their resolutions? Do you see something like that happen in the U.S? How about France, Germany, you name it...?

Ok you are secular... Big applause. But you are secular because someone threatens to put a bayonet on your fellow citizens back if they don't do what they say. That is a benevolent tyranny, not a democracy.

Oh and deli_dumrul since you referred to the Menderes "thingie" lets not forget what happened during that time of upheaval http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

Vorian

07-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Vorian,

I always follow your posts on this forum and I value them..so what I'm about to say is very sincere.

Thanks, appreciated.

You can not observe the things about these ppl deeply simply just for being on the other side of the pond. These ppl knows that Turkey will never be admitted to EU..so does the 20% hard core Islamist supporters of them..and they don't want to be a member ( Just a two years ago, Erdogan wanted to pass a law that crimilizes adultery..a pro EU person would never try something like this)

Perhaps you are right. Indeed I am an outsider. It's just that the hysteria of Erdogan and company implementing Sharia law doesn't persuade me.
Yes, the law for adultery is crazy. The headscarf, I am of the opinion that women should have the right to wear it if they want, but that doesn't matter.

Let's say however that they did try to implement Sharia.

First of all, your generals wouldn't allow it.
Second, they would lose support of many people in Western Turkey that support them right now for their economic policies.
Third, the US would intervene in favor of the secularists. Can't have another Iran and Turkey is very important.

In other words, such attempt would never, never succeed. So I am not worried.Neither should you. Erdogan just pushes for a few moderate laws favoring Islam which is too hard pressed in your country imo. Something to appease his religious voters. Nothing more.

Vorian

07-01-2008, 03:05 PM

At Greek guys here. Just because we had our bad experience with Junta doesn't mean Turkey is the same. They had many coups but every time the army stepped back when things calmed down. Ours didn't. That's why we are so prejudiced against military intervention and they aren't.

They do, go too far with allowing military influence but then again, it's their problem.

Nickchios

07-01-2008, 03:06 PM

There was an interview of Mr Mehmet Ali Birat... the famous journalist of CNN Turk..... before a month and half in a Greek channel and Jimas journalist.

I remember very well that Mr Birat said that after or during the summer the relations between Greece - Turkey will change dramatically because of the political situation in Turkey.

Peris

07-01-2008, 03:08 PM

Would you equally supportive of the "people's democratic will" if they decide to exterminate/expel some minority? or create an islamic republic in the image of Iran? or even worse, a Sultanate in an image of Saudi Arabia? or to declare war on Greece?

like the camel asked: is there any straight road?:)

we hope Turkey will after all join a western type democratic govt. Even with this govt Greek Turkish issues will be issues but there will be more chance for political agreements without military crisis.

Mr.Flint

07-01-2008, 03:11 PM

like the camel asked: is there any straight road?:)

we hope Turkey will after all join a western type democratic govt. Even with this govt Greek Turkish issues will be issues but there will be more chance for political agreements without military crisis.
If the constitutional court decides to dismiss the ruling party on the basis of incriminating evidence, there is no military crisis, unless the ruling party decides to break the law again and refuses to abide with the court decision.

Ulytau

07-01-2008, 03:14 PM

First about democracy..Honestly i check about Western Democracy issues and i can tell very much irony about what they want from Turkiye and in their countries..

First..

I wont support closing AKP or something but there must be serious WARN..

But it is looking like you guys cant get why we been angry..After this issues some media start to blame,insult Turkish Judgment they didnt say NOTHING..

About economical policies..Big brothers are the happy but whats about the simple citizen?

They raise electric TWO times..Why?

Local elections are the coming i am 100% sure they gonna forgive who using electric with illegal things at East.Why i need to pay this then?

When we are making operation aganist terror ''Güneş'' some AKP deputies tried to use this chance?! and tried to change some laws for their rights..

True..

Democracy is important..

But today who saying democracy who cryin to Eu ''Some journalists''

Yesterday was supporting who killed Uğur Mumcu,Bahriye Üçok,Ahmet Taner Kışlalı and more(They were great journalist)

They can solve problem but especially Erdogan need to kick clowns around of him..

When they insult everything about our history,our nation,our tradition freedom of speech..

When we answer to em we beein Junta supporter or anti democratic :)

About Western Democracy issue..

Especially Erdal Sarızeybek ''Turkish Officer also Graduted at France Gendarme School and expert about the Laws'' give many example about this issues..

I believe we gonna solve problem but first we need dialogue between people WITHOUT LETTING FOREIGN ONES..

saladin

07-01-2008, 03:20 PM

Strange Old military are being arrested didnt think they were on the govt side.

I think you misunderstood. It is the government ordering arrests agaists others to save its skin, not the military couping.

Hollis

07-01-2008, 03:20 PM

4X4 Driver made a very reasonable request and asked respectfully. If you feel you can not honor that request, don't post in this thread.

This thread is not for Greeks to flame the Turks or anyone else.

Originally Posted by 4X4Driver http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3358375#post3358375)
Please try not the derail the thread by pulling in the Turkish-Greek issues again. .

Peris

07-01-2008, 03:23 PM

deli_dumrul

07-01-2008, 03:29 PM

What democracy? The kind when your parliament, and by extend the people, have to ask permission from the military in order to pass their resolutions? Do you see something like that happen in the U.S? How about France, Germany, you name it...?

Ok you are secular... Big applause. But you are secular because someone threatens to put a bayonet on your fellow citizens back if they don't do what they say. That is a benevolent tyranny, not a democracy.

Oh and deli_dumrul since you referred to the Menderes "thingie" lets not forget what happened during that time of upheaval http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

Never condoned these kinds of acts... I bet I can find similar crap from your history pages too, but I won't.

The last part of your post is the prime example of the attitude of Greeks on this board. It is just another opportunity to get back at the Turks, democracy is just another fn excuse.

Mess with the constitution and you risk your neck, simple as that. Whether we do not meet the EU standards, well, that is your problem...

Erdogan will be gone and EU bid will end. If we can bring back the death penalty for the rat in Imrali, that would be three birds with a single stone.

Hollis

07-01-2008, 03:32 PM

nobody talked about Greek Turkish issues. and also you should read Nickhios'post . Do you know who Birand is?

I had three members/reports complain about this thread, several also on the Video photo section. Also Look at the first post that establish the topic.

If you made a thread and wanted it to go a certain way, I would try to help you in that. If members came in with off topic post, flame baiting, I think you would not like that either.

Hint of what the topic is:

"Turkey's chief prosecutor has appeared before the country's Constitutional Court calling for the governing party to be closed down."

and one of your posts:

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4X4Driver http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3358375#post3358375)
Please try not the derail the thread by pulling in the Turkish-Greek issues again. .

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

"

Now do we really need to go on,

Let's get back on topic. enough of this nonsense.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 05:08 PM

So... its not the same? Please explain me why?
Where is the difference? in the Turkey-Iran example or in the Turkey-Pakistan example?

Both...the difference lyes in a very important detail; Neither of these countries has a const. that upholds secular system.(I'm sure MG3 will correct me if I'm wrong about Pakistan, but I think we can agree on Iran's system)

Now that's a one helluva important detail..

Let me be honest. I don't believe that todays Turkeyis an Islamic State like Iran.

..and we know why you chose not to believe. It's in the interests of the Greek gov't to have AKP in power.

Now some of you believe that banning a political party, that has recently been elected to government with a clear win and great distance from the second, Its a good thing to do!

Excuse me but that is not democracy. That is a Jounta. Or is it not? So what is the difference from Pakistan when General Musharaf made a military coup so that the Pakistani Islamists stay away from the Government?

When almost the whole world is struggling to detain the radical Islamic movements, what Turkey does in this way will be eventually accepted whether you like it or not.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 05:17 PM

What democracy? The kind when your parliament, and by extend the people, have to ask permission from the military in order to pass their resolutions? Do you see something like that happen in the U.S? How about France, Germany, you name it...?

We haven't seen the Islamic extremists taking over gov'ts in any of the countries you mentioned...but even their presence in these countries worries the people enough. If they were to come to power somehow and try to bring sharia, I'm sure some inst. with the duty of protecting that country's democratic const. will stop them...and I'm pretty sure at that level..it won't be a civillian inst.

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 05:33 PM

We haven't seen the Islamic extremists taking over gov'ts in any of the countries you mentioned...but even their presence in these countries worries the people enough. If they were to come to power somehow and try to bring sharia, I'm sure some inst. with the duty of protecting that country's democratic const. will stop them...and I'm pretty sure at that level..it won't be a civillian inst.

And that is where you simply don't get it. We don't have to fear radical Islam coming to power because here democracy works by itself and has all the democratic, not military, institutions to stop radicals cold. Our constitution upholds rights, it does not oppress them, the political system respects the people as a whole and does not segregate them according to agendas and beliefs. The various political parties, however different, accept the other as servants of the nation. Read a bit about the French and American revolutions and you might get the idea. This democratic tradition, trust in the electorate and its representatives, and last but not least a solid educational system that promotes democratic ideas these are the basic sword and shield of the people. The constitution is a product of this system and not something used by the few to pass their agendas. There is nowhere in the Greek constitution at least anything that forces democracy down the peoples throats. The system endures by suffrage and acceptance.

@deli_dumrul

It saddens me that you believe this was a cheap shot at Turkey. I just wanted to point out that when things go out of hand politically in Turkey, especially this hot that the military takes action, things tend to get out of hand and we get burned also by the fire. Sorry that you took it the wrong way.

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 05:33 PM

arrested;

-Retired General EGE Commander Hursit Tolon
-Retired General GENDAIRME Commander Sener Eruygur
-ATO Cheif Sinan Aygun
-Cumhuriyet Newspaper Ankara Mustafa Balbay
-Tercuman Newspaper Executive Ufuk Büyükçelebi
-Journalist - Writer Erol Mutercimler
-Turkiye Youth Society Founder Cheif Adnan Turkkan
-Prof. Dr. Ercument Ovali
-Kemal Aydin
-Neriman Aydin
-Hamza Demir
-Retired Colonel Atilla Ugur

wanted;

- Former Akp Member Turhan Comez
- Bri.Commander General Levent Ersoz

Ulytau

07-01-2008, 05:39 PM

Then we gonna see when they release..

Especially about Sinan Aygun he was mostly speakin about to current government mistakes about economy..

i laughed so hard to Dengir Mir Firats comment he was saying do not intervention to Judgment..

About this issue he was insultin to Judgment and Chief Prosecutor rofl

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 05:42 PM

Perhaps you are right. Indeed I am an outsider. It's just that the hysteria of Erdogan and company implementing Sharia law doesn't persuade me.
Yes, the law for adultery is crazy. The headscarf, I am of the opinion that women should have the right to wear it if they want, but that doesn't matter.

This is what I mean by "not knowing the details". There is no law against women wearing headscarf in Turkey...it's only not allowed secular state's inst. i.e as judges, teachers etc. other than that, there is no one opposes these ppl. Danmark made a similar decision recently.

Let's say however that they did try to implement Sharia.

First of all, your generals wouldn't allow it.
That's the whole struggle is about now...to prevent them go any further w/out military's intervention.

Second, they would lose support of many people in Western Turkey that support them right now for their economic policies.

Their version of sharia won't be similar to whabbist Saudis. They won't chop heads and arms, but they will refer to Islamic laws dealing with civil Judicary manners. i.e polygomy, no rights for women in divorce, crimilize adultery (only for women of course) How do we know this? most of the AKP members talks about it in the private conversations.

Third, the US would intervene in favor of the secularists. Can't have another Iran and Turkey is very important.

The US needs their support right now with regards to few interests...that's right now. I know if they see that secular Turkey needs their support, they will give it..but now they need them to be in power.

In other words, such attempt would never, never succeed. So I am not worried.Neither should you. Erdogan just pushes for a few moderate laws favoring Islam which is too hard pressed in your country imo. Something to appease his religious voters. Nothing more.

Again...you have no idea of his background..he's more radical that you know...but he's been playing well so far...

Clearday-TRForce

07-01-2008, 05:47 PM

others arrested (totally over 100)

1-Muzaffer Tekin (Retired Captain)
2-Oktay Yıldırım (emekli astsubay)
3-Mahmut Ozturk (Retired petty officer)
4-Fikret Emek (Retired Major)
5-Gazi Güder (Retired Captain)
6-Mehmet Demirtas
7-Muzaffer Senocak
8-Aydın Yüksek (Retired Police Officer)
9-Kuddusi Okkır (Businessman)
10-Bekir Öztürk (Kuvva-i Milliye Inst. Chairman)
11-Nusret Senem (IP General Secreteria)
12-İsmail Yıldız (SESAR Chief)
13 Ergün Poyraz (Writer)
14-Asuman Özdemir (Journalist)
15-Mete Yalazangil
16-Zekeriya OZTURK (Retired Captain)
17-Muhammet YÜCE (old specialist sergeant)
18-Kahraman SAHIN (Kuvay-i Milliye Inst.Authority)
19-Erol OLMEZ
20- Erkut ERSOY
21-Veli KUCUK (Retired Brigadier General)
22-Mehmet Fikri Karadağ (Retired General Staff Colonel)
23-Kemal Kerincsiz (Lawyer)
24-Sami Hostan
25-Huseyin Görüm (Kuvay-i Milliye Inst.Chief)
26-Oğuz Alpaslan Abdülkadir
27-Hüseyin Gazi Oğuz Kuvay-i Milliye Branch Chief)
28-Sevgi Erenerol ( Turk Ortodokc Partriachate Press Speaker)
29- Abdullah ARAPOĞLU (Kuvay-i Milliye Inst. member)
30- Hikmet Cicek (IP Press Office Chief)
31-Umit OGUZTAN (Yazar)
32- Vatan Bolukbasi
33- Habip Ümit Sayın (Istanbul Unv. Asst.Professor)
34- Emin Gürses (Sakarya Unv. Asst.Professor)
35- Orhan Tunç (Balıkesir Unv. retired teacher)
36- Hayrettin Ertekin
37- Vedat Yenerer (Media)
38- Muammer Karabulut (Ayasofya Inst. Chief)
39- Abdulmuttalip Tongar
40- Selim Akkurt
41-Dogu perincek (IP Chief)
42-ferit ilsever (Ulusal Canal Executive)
43-Adnan Akfırat (journalist)
44-Serhan bolluk (Aydinlik Newspaper Executive)
45- Hayati Özcan (Ulusal Canal Izmir Bureu Chief)
46 -Ali yiğit
47 -Behiç Gürcihan (Açık İstihbarat sitesi sahibi)
48 -Rasim görüm
49 -Murat Çağlar( Kuvay-i Milliye Inst. Chief Asst)

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 05:50 PM

And that is where you simply don't get it. We don't have to fear radical Islam coming to power because....

...because your population is not 99% Muslim (although mostly moderate, religion is one delicate issue that can be used differently in the wrong hands)

If you'r population was 99% Muslim and wanted to bring sharia..would you be soooo "democratic"

Hell...you're even putting restrictions to the Muslim Turkish minorty in your country regarding to practicing their religion. Why don't you start being democratic to them first before supporting the ones in Turkey. :roll:

I think you're sounding little stupid with your insisting of refusing to understand. What I'm curious is..do you actually don't get it... or it's something else?? :roll:

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 05:54 PM

Raven_gr

07-01-2008, 06:21 PM

...because your population is not 99% Muslim (although mostly moderate, religion is one delicate issue that can be used differently in the wrong hands)

If you'r population was 99% Muslim and wanted to bring sharia..would you be soooo "democratic"

Hell...you're even putting restrictions to the Muslim Turkish minorty in your country regarding to practicing their religion. Why don't you start being democratic to them first before supporting the ones in Turkey. :roll:

I think you're sounding little stupid with your insisting of refusing to understand. What I'm curious is..do you actually don't get it... or it's something else?? :roll:

So it now its because the population is Muslim. Lame excuse. So what that makes them undemocratic heathens? Where does it say that Islam and democracy are incompatible?
People who thirst in the desert and cannot find water try to drink the sand. Your system has alienated the people and now they turn to whoever they think can lead them forward. It is not that the AKP has such a powerful voice, it is that other voices in your country cannot convince anymore and the most tragic part the few voices that say no to hatred and bigotry are isolated and frightful whispers.

As for the muslim minority in Greece you are just ranting with no clues making false claims. I don't want to turn this in a Greek-Turkish dispute so don't try to derail the thread.

I understand you cannot and will not change your views you have built your life upon. Neither will I. You believe that a nation should be governed with an iron hand by an elite and the people should be feared. Well unless the people participate in the nations governing without puppeteers you are all slaves.

4X4Driver

07-01-2008, 06:26 PM

So it now its because the population is Muslim. Lame excuse. So what that makes them undemocratic heathens? Where does it say that Islam and democracy are incompatible?
People who thirst in the desert and cannot find water try to drink the sand. Your system has alienated the people and now they turn to whoever they think can lead them forward. It is not that the AKP has such a powerful voice, it is that other voices in your country cannot convince anymore and the most tragic part the few voices that say no to hatred and bigotry are isolated and frightful whispers.

As for the muslim minority in Greece you are just ranting with no clues making false claims. I don't want to turn this in a Greek-Turkish dispute so don't try to derail the thread.

I understand you cannot and will not change your views you have built your life upon. Neither will I. You believe that a nation should be governed with an iron hand by an elite and the people should be feared. Well unless the people participate in the nations governing without puppeteers you are all slaves.

As Mr. Flint said;

I find it amusing that the biggest protectors of islamic democracy here are Greeks...

But I'm not amused...your motivations are very obvious and I won't waste my time with you any longer.

Ulytau

07-01-2008, 06:37 PM

An elite? roflI rememberin this word from somewhere too..

Do you want to know we are aganist what about so called democracy supporters?

When they supportin terror,when they insultin our tradition and other issues there is no problem when someone answer to em beeing;

Elite,Junta supporter,anti democratic..I give example about Uğur Mumcu,Bahriye Üçok,Ahmet Taner Kışlalı etc..Yesterday who supportin their murderers today been democratic?

True democracy is important also they need to check seriously about some issues too but not with their style cause easy to see about their agendas..Who supportin em who givin money to em their connections..Minority but they tryin to be effective..

Today we seein how they attackin to army too..Especially we seen what they did do about Ilker Basbug Pasha when he was visitin Israel as a tourist funny thing they didnt interest to see this pic too :)

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/6802/5846802.jpg

They doing only populism..This is why most of people are the angry..

deli_dumrul

07-01-2008, 08:08 PM

And that is where you simply don't get it. We don't have to fear radical Islam coming to power because here democracy works by itself and has all the democratic, not military, institutions to stop radicals cold. Our constitution upholds rights, it does not oppress them, the political system respects the people as a whole and does not segregate them according to agendas and beliefs. The various political parties, however different, accept the other as servants of the nation. Read a bit about the French and American revolutions and you might get the idea. This democratic tradition, trust in the electorate and its representatives, and last but not least a solid educational system that promotes democratic ideas these are the basic sword and shield of the people. The constitution is a product of this system and not something used by the few to pass their agendas. There is nowhere in the Greek constitution at least anything that forces democracy down the peoples throats. The system endures by suffrage and acceptance.

How can an institution uphold a constitution when the accused tampers with it?

or

How can an institution uphold a constitution when the institution is infiltrated by the accused? It is like asking Nazis to prosecute Nazis.

All we are trying to do is the prevent the next step, infiltration of the secular institutions.

That bayonet argument is a bit harsh considering people can do whatever they want "except" when in government institutions. I do not think this is over the limit; I remember a ten commandment discussion in an Alabama court a couple of years ago in the US.

http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/stories/2008/06/27/alabama_judge_commandments.html

@deli_dumrul

It saddens me that you believe this was a cheap shot at Turkey. I just wanted to point out that when things go out of hand politically in Turkey, especially this hot that the military takes action, things tend to get out of hand and we get burned also by the fire. Sorry that you took it the wrong way.

* The pogrom took place because of the Cyprus issue; there was Greek involvement in the issue (i mean it was related to you).
* The military took action after these events.
* The military executed the prime minister responsible for these events.

Nonetheless, the Greek population dwindled after this... As I said, I do not condone these, but accusing the military of stuff that they were not responsible for is just a cheap shot.

saladin

07-01-2008, 09:27 PM

I think there is an impression in some non-Turkish forumers that Ergenekon is a democratic attempt by a legal government against deep Turkish state especially the generals junta. This is mostly thanks to some foreign blogs whose opinion against Turks and Turkey are well known.

Let me clarify this, all of these people listed by CDTRF are from a wide spectrum. Their only common characteristic is their dislike for AKP, the ideology it represents and its unethical tactics. Some are against EU, some are hard-core Kemalists. some wrote books against Erdogan.. Turkish media classified them as nationalist but I don't agree with this classification.

As I said they are from wide spectrum. Some are very hard left wing, some are hard right wing. Now, you want me to believe that people who literally shot at each other a few decades ago now conspiring together? For example, Ilhan Selcuk is the chief editor of daily newpaper Cumhuriyet (he is the personalization of that newspaper). A few years ago his newpaper was bombed. Now we learn that it was Ergenekon that bombed his newspaper, and yet he is also arrested in this conspiracy. Do we believe that? Apparently we are dumb enough to do so.

Another case, Ergün Poyraz wrote a book about Erdogan and his wife. He represented them as two treacherous people. I haven't read the book but it was one of the best sellers. He is a writer for f*cks sake. where were the freedom of expression supporters when he was arrested. Even though he didn't know anybody in the list (proven), he is still in prison. I wonder where is the EU commissioner who was talking about AKP case.

Turan Comez an Ex-AKP parliamenter who is also in the list, was known for his objections to Erdogan. He was a real investigative person. He did things you wouldn't expect to see from a turkish parliamenter whose sole job is to raise his hand when his party leader asks. Of course being independent minded they fired him from AKP. That is the democracy for you.

Turkey today is in a intersection. Finding out that they won't be able capture all institutions in short time , some are now using bullying technique using the institutions they captured. Their previous leader asked wheter their coupe was going to be bloody or bloodless. One important figure in whole this game is Fethullah Gulen, supposed to be a simple priest but who controls 25 billion dollars and whose believers are in key positions in those institutions. According to American Imigration officials, he has strong CIA connections. Go figure who have the Turkish national interest in the top of their list.

We are all living in interesting times...... I just hope one day we will see the people behind such tactics are going to be punished not only for wasting the state resources on political agenda but also for their attempts to mark innocent people. I also hope that we will see the constitutional court, the highest court that can do that, to punish the master minds behind them for treason. Unfortunately, being a logical person I know that these are far fetched hopes and what we will see is actually further marginalization of Turkey.

Clearday-TRForce

07-02-2008, 01:12 AM

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Hurşit%20tolon%20gözaltında/01.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Hurşit%20tolon%20gözaltında/02.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Hurşit%20tolon%20gözaltında/05.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Hurşit%20tolon%20gözaltında/09.jpg

I do not accept to see these photos. This is our ex-top general,how could it be?

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Mustafa%20Balbay%20gözaltına%20alındı/04.jpg

M.Balbay is very well-known journalist/writer all around the Turkey. How? why do they send him like he is a prisoner?

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Sinan%20Aygün%20böyle%20gözaltına%20alındı/06.jpg

How? this guy is Ankara Chamber of Commerce Chief. All of these people are elit,very well-known people. Why?

GREEK71AIRBORNE

07-02-2008, 02:58 AM

@4X4Driver
I said

Let me be honest. I don't believe that todays Turkey is an Islamic State like Iran.

and yoy replyed...

..and we know why you chose not to believe. It's in the interests of the Greek gov't to have AKP in power.

So you are saying that Turkey Is an Islamic State like Iran !
So maybe the West must dealing with you as it is dealing with Iran....
Maybe that coment of yours is the strongest argument against Turkey's candidacy to join E.U!

Clearday-TRForce

07-02-2008, 03:13 AM

@4X4Driver
I said

and yoy replyed...

So you are saying that Turkey Is an Islamic State like Iran !
So maybe the West must dealing with you as it is dealing with Iran....
Maybe that coment of yours is the strongest argument against Turkey's candidacy to join E.U!

Dear Greek-Airborne, hi friend. I am greatly sorry but I do not think you are able to understand what is going on in Turkey after AKP government.There is a simple,understandable think that no ona dare to change our regime which is established by Ataturk and the valued people. It is about modernism,nationalism...We here do not criticize true Islamic values, we criticize fabricated mullah minded religion that is not fitted to true one, and the secularism is the best system,protector which is able to keep religion and system on way.

That is to say, in order to reach their goal they have to show fine face to yours for taking all good comments by you and keep you on their side passionly.

chris450

07-02-2008, 03:42 AM

one thing that puzzles me is why the newly arrested alledged Ergenekon members were not questioned in Ankara and had to be transferred to Constantinople for questioning ..with Ankara beeing the capital and all, and having all the nessesary structures

are those cities the rispective hotbeds of Kemalism and AKP islam ? is this why they were transfered?

its a clear retaliatory act by Erdogan ,he feels strong and will not go away without a fight..i dont blame him ,the last elections showed his popular base is growing..this needs to be defused now before it spirals out of hand, civil war is no joke,the one we've in Greece right after WWII was more destructive than WWI and WWII put together

as far as the support to AKP from foreign spectators -us in this occasion- i dont think an islamic turkey even "moderately" (whatever that means....) is good news to us.people thinking that anything non kemalist=good for us are mistaken ,problems will just multiply with Gulen's disciples in full control.Not to mention that the crisis could escalate and bring down stability in the region with it

4X4Driver

07-02-2008, 04:44 AM

That's what I said;

Originally Posted by 4X4Driver http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3358834#post3358834)

..and we know why you chose not to believe. It's in the interests of the Greek gov't to have AKP in power.

..and this is what you got out of it with your limited capacity;

@4X4Driver
I said

So you are saying that Turkey Is an Islamic State like Iran !
So maybe the West must dealing with you as it is dealing with Iran....
Maybe that coment of yours is the strongest argument against Turkey's candidacy to join E.U!

Your attempts of trying to flame this thread is getting ridiculous.

4X4Driver

07-02-2008, 04:50 AM

Clearday-TRForce

07-02-2008, 04:55 AM

There is no place called constantinople. It is ancient name. This is somehow tricky posts made by well-known some greek members under carpets. And when we write that,we are suddenly finely transformed a paranoic man by you. Istanbul history is about 300 thousands. If you want to send romantic posts, so use other ancient names here and make this thread more unirrelevant,nonsense things while we discuss current event.

I wonder when we see a positive message from your side. Maybe a day...maybe...

now, criticize everything what you see here. Democracy,Akp,Generals,People... Same...

its a clear retaliatory act by Erdogan ,he feels strong and will not go away without a fight..i dont blame him ,the last elections showed his popular base is growing..this needs to be defused now before it spirals out of hand, civil war is no joke,the one we've in Greece right after WWII was more destructive than WWI and WWII put together

as far as the support to AKP from foreign spectators -us in this occasion- i dont think an islamic turkey even "moderately" (whatever that means....) is good news to us.people thinking that anything non kemalist=good for us are mistaken ,problems will just multiply with Gulen's disciples in full control.Not to mention that the crisis could escalate and bring down stability in the region with it

others? +1