Dying woman ignored at New York hospital,dies 1 hour later

[Afro-European]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FOCpOZ4txvs&feature=related
According to many reports,Kings County Hospital has a long reputation as a house of horrors, everybody who has even been there has stories of the bad staff, but seeing the people and guards in the waiting room sit there while she dies is even more horrifying.That's f*cked up how that lady was on floor for almost about an hour and no one did anything.

[Calanen]

US hospitals operate on the basis that the first thing they ask you is, please give me your insurance card? My work self-insured, so I would pay cash, and then get reimbursed. But they were used to people saying 'No insurance' and then defaulting to rush them out the door with security. So I literally had to have to have the cash in my hand to wave at them in response to the question 'Please provide you insurance card' and immediately say 'I am not insured but I will pay cash' waving the cash to avoid the 'bums rush' plan being enacted for the uninsured.

What is pathetic is that the insurers with their bargaining power get a lower rate than the uninsured. So if you pay cash for a consultation as uninsured you might be charged $400. The insurer only has to pay $120.

It is terrible that a country so rich let's so many of its people not have any access to health care. People are literally dying because they have no insurance and that is very sad.

[IDF_TANKER]

Now that is seriously fvcked up.

[meatrabbit]

Horrific and unbelievable. I'm very sorry for her. I wonder why the other patients didn't do anything about her and just sat there watching - over here they'd propably arrested for refraining/omitting first aid - which these people would deserve. I'm ashamed of the other patients and the staff. No words for these people.

[Calanen]

Horrific and unbelievable. I'm very sorry for her. I wonder why the other patients didn't do anything about her and just sat there watching - over here they'd propably arrested for refraining/omitting first aid - which these people would deserve. I'm ashamed of the other patients and the staff. No words for these people.

What could they do as a patient? Likely to get sued for assisting without being properly qualified by the patients family. Better not to do anything, or try and alert staff. If the staff ignored them, then you cant really do anything more.

[IDF_TANKER]

Horrific and unbelievable. I'm very sorry for her. I wonder why the other patients didn't do anything about her and just sat there watching - over here they'd propably arrested for refraining/omitting first aid - which these people would deserve. I'm ashamed of the other patients and the staff. No words for these people.

I think the guy who went away when the woman fell (1:05), went to call the hospital personnel. But I might be wrong.

[meatrabbit]

What could they do as a patient? Likely to get sued for assisting without being properly qualified by the patients family. Better not to do anything, or try and alert staff. If the staff ignored them, then you cant really do anything more.

Giving first aid. Here in europe it is a law in most countries (possibly even in all of europe) to give first aid as good as possible. Everyone has to have a first aid course for getting the driving licence. Also, if something goes wrong no one will sue you over here for giving first aid as you did the best you could. You could/would get arrested for refusing to give first aid when someone needs it and no one qualified is around - this is a good law in my opinion.

[Afro-European]

US hospitals operate on the basis that the first thing they ask you is, please give me your insurance card? My work self-insured, so I would pay cash, and then get reimbursed. But they were used to people saying 'No insurance' and then defaulting to rush them out the door with security. So I literally had to have to have the cash in my hand to wave at them in response to the question 'Please provide you insurance card' and immediately say 'I am not insured but I will pay cash' waving the cash to avoid the 'bums rush' plan being enacted for the uninsured. What is pathetic is that the insurers with their bargaining power get a lower rate than the uninsured. So if you pay cash for a consultation as uninsured you might be charged $400. The insurer only has to pay $120.It is terrible that a country so rich let's so many of its people not have any access to health care. People are literally dying because they have no insurance and that is very sad.
To be honest,i've never understood how the richest,the most powerful country in the world has such a *** healthcare system.Like some one said it:The US has the best healthcare system in the world and it's... too expensive.

[Afro-European]

Giving first aid. Here in europe it is a law to give first aid as good as possible
What kind of aid should they have given her? CPR or what? Calling the medical staff 'd have been the best solution.

[Stonewall71]

US hospitals operate on the basis that the first thing they ask you is, please give me your insurance card?

I had heard that story from an american colleague a couple of years ago...

If you do not have insurance they LITERALLY let you die in the floor...:roll:

[meatrabbit]

What kind of aid should they have given her? CPR or what? Calling the medical staff 'd have been the best solution.

Walking over to her and see what happened - for example. Just trying to help, controll if there she still has breath, if she threw up, if she lost consciousness control if she has a pulse rate (3 Things you always have to do when someone lost his/her consciousness. Trying to make her comfortable

[PrinzEugen]

Now that is seriously fvcked up.

X2. It would of been fvcked up if it had happened on a public street and people ignored it, but in the hospital waiting room no less...

[Stonewall71]

What kind of aid should they have given her? CPR or what? Calling the medical staff 'd have been the best solution.

well they shouldn't have IGNORED HER in the 1st place

[meatrabbit]

well they shouldn't have IGNORED HER in the 1st place

In many countries here in Europe you might get to prison for ignoring someone who needs first aid. The law says that you have to help someone as good as you can if he/she needs first aid.

[pInGu]

I just read about it.

1st. It was a mental health clinic and she was brought there with force(she didn't want to go) and waiting for a bed more than 24 hours before this happened!!

Since it was a metal health clinic you can only partly blame the other patients.


And @ Afro-European: I don't think the U.S. is the richest country and they certanly don't have the best healthcare system in the world... .
But thats another story since the woman here was forced to be there... .

[meatrabbit]

Since it was a metal health clinic you can only partly blame the other patients.


Of course you can blame the other patients. Someone else was in need of first aid - they saw it and ignored it. And were sitting next to a person who lies on the ground who seemed to have lost consciousness. I could throw up - seriously.

[Afro-European]

Walking over to her and see what happened - for example. Just trying to help, controll if there she still has breath, if she threw up, if she lost consciousness control if she has a pulse rate (3 Things you always have to do when someone lost his/her consciousness. Trying to make her comfortable
You are right.I might have done one of the things you suggested but i still blame this sh!t on the medical staff.As someone wrote it here,no insurance,no treatment in the US,so that may explain their attitude.

[meatrabbit]

You are right.I might have done one of the things you suggested but i still blame this sh!t on the medical staff.As someone wrote it here,no insurance,no treatment in the US,so that may explain their attitude.

Yes, the staff has to be blamed in the 1st place for not reacting. They even saw it on video.

[Afro-European]

And @ Afro-European: I don't think the U.S. is the richest country and they certanly don't have the best healthcare system in the world...

I meant it this way:The US health care budget is as big as (or even bigger than)the European,Asian and Australian budgets combined.With all that dough,they could at least be able to provide a basic care coverage to anyone,rich or poor.

[wilhelm]

What kind of aid should they have given her? CPR or what? Calling the medical staff 'd have been the best solution.

In every case, the ABC rule applies. Airway, Breathing , Circulation.

In this ladies case, seeing as she was having a siezure of some sort, some very, very basic actions by the nearest fellow human being would have made all the difference. I would for example have walked over, put her in the recovery position (on her side) and checked her airway for blockages. The reasons for the above is to prevent dentures or tongue from being swallowed and to prevent drowning by vomit. Whilst doing that, I would have raised the alarm. The above actions would have taken about 5 to 10 seconds and very possibly have saved her life.......

What a mean, mean world we live in....:-(

[Connaught Ranger]

Of course, if a non-qualified person was to render assistance and the victim afterwards die, then that person leaves themselves wide open for a court case by the victims family.

Blame it on the ambulance chasing lawyers who specialize in medical malpractice suits not only against qualified doctors, nurses, but good Samaritans.

People are to afraid to get involved.

Connaught Ranger

[meatrabbit]

Of course, if a non-qualified person was to render assistance and the victim afterwards die, then that person leaves themselves wide open for a court case by the victims family.

Connaught Ranger

Maybe it's that way in the US but NOT in Europe.

[Moose]

Well i guess this is how the "ambulance chasing lawyers " came to be.

I wonder how the hospital is trying to explain itself.
Hippocratic Oath, i guess ethic and morals was left out in their preparation to become doctors. I wonder in what other countries you could see this happening in ( not saying its only a problem in the us) im guessing the only place i could think of is the uk, what do you think?

[Calanen]

And @ Afro-European: I don't think the U.S. is the richest country and they certanly don't have the best healthcare system in the world... .
But thats another story since the woman here was forced to be there... .

It may not be the richest country, but I would say it has the best medical treatment and health care in the world, of any country I have been to. They are streets ahead of the doctors in Hong Kong, the UK and Australia. You just have to pay for it....

[Connaught Ranger]

Maybe it's that way in the US but NOT in Europe.

My brother, Anthony, in Ireland, is qualified in First Aid with regards his job as a civil abseiling instructor, at a school of Outdoor pursuits, he has also completed and passed the same course as Ambulance crew in Ireland, he has been told if he stops to administer help in the public domain and the victim dies, he is eligible to be sued in court because he is NOT a doctor.

My wife Adriana, is a trainee Nurse in her 3rd year Medical school in Transylvania, they too, have been warned about rendering assistance to the public for the same legal reasons.

I am sure the same legal reasons are being touted in All E.U. Countries.

We are also required by law to carry First Aid Kits in our cars in case of accident, but, we are not allowed to administer help for legal reasons!!! what a load of legal crap.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Calanen]

Well i guess this is how the "ambulance chasing lawyers " came to be.


1) I've never chased an ambulance in my life.

2) I've primarily practised in commercial litigation and on the employment side of mergers

3) the problems of healthcare are to some extent exacerbated by medical malpractice suits, but the main problem is price fixing by the drug companies, the HMOs, the hospitals. The government needs to take them on. I used to get a bottle of pills for $300 bucks in the states -the same drug in Mexico costs about $20 and its not because the Mexicans are taking sugar pills or they are unsafe. They are the same drugs, from the same manufacturers.

There is not the political will on either side to fix the healthcare mess. Its always been 'user pays' so if you cant pay, you die. The same with dental. Poor people in the US pull their own teeth out with pliars because they can't get dental care.

[IDF_TANKER]

It may not be the richest country, but I would say it has the best medical treatment and health care in the world, of any country I have been to. They are streets ahead of the doctors in Hong Kong, the UK and Australia. You just have to pay for it....

I have an ex-American friend who said that health hare system is much much better than in US. But he might have been referring rather to the accessibility of the services.

[SBL]

To be honest,i've never understood how the richest,the most powerful country in the world has such a *** healthcare system.Like some one said it:The US has the best healthcare system in the world and it's... too expensive.

It's pretty simple: the US is not a welfare state- at least not in the sense that many European countries are.
There are varying degrees of care, and you get what you pay for. Not saying it's the best way, but it is how things operate here. Different set of ideals.

[sct1886]

To be honest,i've never understood how the richest,the most powerful country in the world has such a *** health care system.Like some one said it:The US has the best health care system in the world and it's... too expensive.

Yes, the U.S. health care SUCKS!! It starts with poor education system. Most doctors are very narrow minded and have little time to keep their education current. Many doctors are book smart and dumb as a box of rocks as far as common sense. My father was diagnosed with a inoperable brain tumor and given several months to live. They also noticed spots on his lungs and did a biopsy. The lung would not re-inflate causing him to gasp for air for two weeks before it killed him. The second problem is most doctors here only address symptoms and not the cause. Their answer is to throw drugs at the symptoms. The drugs most often cause more damage than they cure. Most doctors are overworked and only give patients small snippets of time, most often overlooking the obvious. My best friend was recently diagnosed with a non-malignant growth at the base of his spine, It had been overlooked for years on numerous MRI's.
To the doctors defense they are overloaded and doing too many unnecessary test to cover their ass. My doctor was sued over a 93 year old woman dying in a nursing home. Afterwards my bills at his office tripled. A simple case of bronchitis ended up costing me $1000. Many doctors have left my county because of high malpractice insurance. The stinking insurance companies are like a dog with a bone. Most insurance companies have different forms and requirements. All designed to keep them in money and a job. They argue and slow pay on almost every line item on a bill. Lastly are the ******* drug companies, in IMOP generally produce poisons...

[wilhelm]

I must say that it would take an awful lot to convince me that many, many doctors are not a form of pharmaceutical rep.....

[Firetxmi]

To all of ya'll who are talking about getting sued for stopping and assisting, it is only partially true. Most states have a "Good Samaritan Law." This law prevents someone from suing you if you stop and render aid "in good faith." Now as a firefighter/paramedic I am held to a higher standard. In some states I am REQUIRED to stop, or I could loose my license to practice. I also incur more liability though. Since I am trained to a higher standard I am required to give the best medical care with the tools I am given at the time.

As for hospitals not treating someone, here is the law:


EMTALA establishes the following general requirements:

* Medical Screening Examination. A hospital that operates an emergency department must provide a medical screening examination to anyone on whose behalf a request is made for examination or treatment. The purpose of the examination is to determine whether or not the individual is in an emergency medical condition
* Necessary Stabilizing Treatment. If the individual has come to the hospital and the hospital has determined that he or she is in an emergency medical condition, the hospital must provide further medical examination and treatment to stabilize the medical condition.
* Restricting Transfers Until Stabilization. A hospital may not transfer an individual unless:
1. The individual requests transfer having been informed of the hospital's obligation to provide further examination and treatment and of the risks of transfer, or a physician certifies in writing that the benefits reasonably expected from treatment at another facility outweigh the increased risks to the individual and/or the unborn child from effecting the transfer (if the physician is not present in the emergency department, a "qualified medical person" may sign the certification if a physician consulting with that person has made the determination that the benefits of transfer outweigh the risks, and subsequently countersigns the certification); and
2. The transfer is an appropriate transfer.
* Appropriate Transfer.
1. Transferring hospital provides medical treatment to minimize risks to the individual and/or unborn child.
2. Receiving facility has available space and qualified personnel to treat the individual and has agreed to accept transfer of the individual.
3. Transferring hospital sends all medical records related to the emergency condition, including emergency medical records, observations of signs and symptoms, preliminary diagnosis, treatment provided, results of any tests, the informed consent and/or certification provided under EMTALA and the name and address of any on-call physician who has refused or failed to appear within a reasonable time to provide necessary stabilizing treatment.
4. Transfer is effected through qualified personnel and transportation equipment as required, including the use of necessary medically appropriate life support measures during transfer.
5. Meet other requirements imposed by the Secretary.


Link:http://www.acutecare.com/emtala.htm

This is a federal law so all states are bound by this. I occasionally do interhospital transfers of unstable/stabalized patients. I can tell you, for the most part this law is followed because it is strictly enforced.

[Hollis]

Firetx, Problem with the Good Sam law, if you are start to assist then realize it is over you head/ability and stop, at that point you maybe liable. (At least in Oregon).

Reasoning is another person seeing you respond, won't respond. They might have been able to do more, offer more. This is also part of the rescue too.


I have never seen a situation where someone did not offer aid. Sometimes it is amazing who is out there. One night while on our way to climb Mt. Hood. the car in front of us was head-on by a Drunk (over .20) driver. I had a EMT-1, the two other members were EMT-4 and Emergency room Nurse and EMT-2 and nurse. With in moments a few other people with various EMT certs stopped.

Before I go commenting on this incident, I would like to know more.

[oldsoak]

Fair comment. Sometimes there is such a thing as genuine accidents - and in a high pressure environments such as hospitals they do tragically happen.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

US hospitals operate on the basis that the first thing they ask you is, please give me your insurance card? My work self-insured, so I would pay cash, and then get reimbursed. But they were used to people saying 'No insurance' and then defaulting to rush them out the door with security. So I literally had to have to have the cash in my hand to wave at them in response to the question 'Please provide you insurance card' and immediately say 'I am not insured but I will pay cash' waving the cash to avoid the 'bums rush' plan being enacted for the uninsured.

What is pathetic is that the insurers with their bargaining power get a lower rate than the uninsured. So if you pay cash for a consultation as uninsured you might be charged $400. The insurer only has to pay $120.

It is terrible that a country so rich let's so many of its people not have any access to health care. People are literally dying because they have no insurance and that is very sad.

Well you had a very different experience than I did. I recently had to rush a friend to a hospital...he had been in a car wreck the previous week and his back suddenly went out. He was shaking, crying in pain...couldn't even stand up...it was hard to deal with.

But I got him to the hospital, I ran in and a nurse rolled me a wheel chair. Within 15 minutes he was in a room with doctors and urgent care nurses hovering over him. Not a single question about insurance or money - that came after he was stabilized.

I agree that insurance is a massive scam, but I don't think it was the problem here. If you ask me, the culprit here is city life in general and what happens to over-burdened human beings. They're faced with crisis after crisis, they've got mentally ill people wandering around, scammers trying to take advantage, druggies faking problems to get their next fix - it all serves to de-sensitize the staff. I can't envision this kind of thing happening at a hospital in a small town where people are actually connected and know each other.

[Hollis]

Problem, the ER is often used as the regular doctor's office. The patients waiting are in about the same state of Emergency as you would find waiting at any doctor's office.

[Mastermind]

Watching the video, I was totally disgusted. What's the harm in checking on her? Even if she was trying to fake distress to get to the "front of the line", someone, wating patient, security guard...someone, anyone present.... should have checked her condition and immeidately summoned help.

I would have, and I think anyone in here would have. If we, as a society, have become so callous we can't take a few seconds to check on a fallen fellow human being and summon help...we are in serious trouble.

[raoul volfoni]

Problem, the ER is often used as the regular doctor's office. The patients waiting are in about the same state of Emergency as you would find waiting at any doctor's office.
It's the same here. I guess it's a common occurrence in countries with good and/or low cost ER and overworked private doctors (the ones where you have to book an appointment a few weeks in advance).

[SBL]

I agree that insurance is a massive scam, but I don't think it was the problem here. If you ask me, the culprit here is city life in general and what happens to over-burdened human beings. They're faced with crisis after crisis, they've got mentally ill people wandering around, scammers trying to take advantage, druggies faking problems to get their next fix - it all serves to de-sensitize the staff. I can't envision this kind of thing happening at a hospital in a small town where people are actually connected and know each other.

I think this is a really good point.
Most of us like to think we would react differently by offering aid and so on, but then again, a lot of us probably don't have jobs that require us to work with the 'public' on a nightly basis.

[Mastermind]

What does that matter? We live among the public...we work every day with fellow members of "the public"...we ARE the public. We are human beings who really must care much better for each other. Otherwise, what are we really?

[Silent Reader]

3) the problems of healthcare are to some extent exacerbated by medical malpractice suits, but the main problem is price fixing by the drug companies, the HMOs, the hospitals. The government needs to take them on. I used to get a bottle of pills for $300 bucks in the states -the same drug in Mexico costs about $20 and its not because the Mexicans are taking sugar pills or they are unsafe. They are the same drugs, from the same manufacturers.



you are right with this one. The US are the only country in the world which has no price cap for pharmaceuticals. the big companies use the american market to make most their profits. and since the pharma industry has some of the most powerful lobbyists in Washington this isn't going to change.
we recently had an American professor at our university who needed some medication and said she was really surprised that she just had to pay about $10 while she expected to have to pay far more than $100

if the prices for medication would be limited in the US even lower income households could afford good medication and the treatment of patients in general would become much cheaper

[szr]

Agree this has nothing to do with insurance and everything to do with the folks in the waiting room and the security guards who periodically peeked in, not doing the right thing which was to investigate why there is a person laying face-down on the floor. I don't think it helped that this was a psych-ER and not a normal ER.

If someone rolls-up emergent at a hospital in the United States they get emergency care as fast as the hospital, with its resources, is able to render it. Non-emergent folks who use the ER as their PCP (tons of people fall into this category in NYC) often have to wait. Those folks also slow the ER's overall ability to treat all its patients.

[packetloss]

Pretty disgusting. If those people were afraid of legal repercussions - THEY WERE IN A HOSPITAL. SCREAM FOR HELP. They dont have a leg to stand on, in my opinion. They all just sat there watching tv, making calls, doing their own thing - While someone who is CLEARLY a patient flounders on the floor.

As for those who were employed by the hospital - namely the security guards - i hope they rot. The narrated version of the video i saw last night, showed that the first security guard paid her no attention - he was watching the TV. The second guard couldnt even bothered to haul his ass out of a chair.

[meatrabbit]

My brother, Anthony, in Ireland, is qualified in First Aid with regards his job as a civil abseiling instructor, at a school of Outdoor pursuits, he has also completed and passed the same course as Ambulance crew in Ireland, he has been told if he stops to administer help in the public domain and the victim dies, he is eligible to be sued in court because he is NOT a doctor.

My wife Adriana, is a trainee Nurse in her 3rd year Medical school in Transylvania, they too, have been warned about rendering assistance to the public for the same legal reasons.

I am sure the same legal reasons are being touted in All E.U. Countries.

We are also required by law to carry First Aid Kits in our cars in case of accident, but, we are not allowed to administer help for legal reasons!!! what a load of legal crap.

Connaught Ranger:)

I don't know how it works in Ireland. But it is NOT true for Austria and Germany (at least for these two and I'm pretty sure many other european countries have the same laws as we have).

You CAN NOT be sued in court because of assisting first aid. Here in Austria (and also in Germany) you MUST help a person who is in need of first aid - this is a law. If you don't help - then you are sued in court. Also IF something goes wrong and the person dies because of your fault nothing will happen to you because you tried as good as you could.

Here in Austria (and also in Germany) we are also required by law to carry First Aid Kits in our care and we are also required by law to use them if someone needs help.

I said in most european countries you have to give first aid by law if someone needs it. I don't know about all european countries of course.

In Ireland and some countries things might be different.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Complete BS. Sad part is, since she didn't give any insurance card, the docs may get away with it. Hopefully not though.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What does that matter? We live among the public...we work every day with fellow members of "the public"...we ARE the public. We are human beings who really must care much better for each other. Otherwise, what are we really?

Well ideally yeah, we should all care for each other etc...I'm just saying that if you've been punched in the face enough times, you'll get onboard the learning curve. They most likely have drunks, junkies and bums passing out in their lobby every day...especially at night or when it rains.

I worked at the service window of a cellular store for a few years and I swear I'd rather have a job doing artificial insemination on tigers. I started that job as a bright eyed enthusiastic young man, and ended it with a crushed soul and a deeply suspicious nature...always wondering how the person I was talking to was trying to con me. After a while I learned a few things - never address anybody by their first name...always Mr. or Miss - avoid eye contact - ask open ended questions - avoid making commitments - if they're crying, or propping up their ****s on the counter, ignore it and move on - every conversation was a battle.

I hated it - I suspect that the people working these inner-city emergency rooms are bombarded with so much human detritus that they've become immune to caring. I know that sucks, and it shouldn't be that way...I'm just saying that they're not evil bad people- IMO they're just displaying their coping kills, unfortunately. They've got to face disciplinary action....but I think an investigation of conditions/staffing levels at that hospital should also be done.

[Tunasa]

Sad story, similar to the news from last week or two weeks ago where an old man was hit by a car and nobody offers any help and watching.

I don't think the insurance card is the problem. Usually they don't ask for it until later part, and even if you don't have one, you can't be denied help. However, it is true that you have to wait quite a long time. I broke my leg and dislocate my ankel couple years ago. I have to wait for an hour in a wheelchair since the nurse didn't consider my condition as life threatening.

[Hunterhr]

However, it is true that you have to wait quite a long time. I broke my leg and dislocate my ankel couple years ago. I have to wait for an hour in a wheelchair since the nurse didn't consider my condition as life threatening.

Hospitals practicing triage?!!?!?!?!

Madness I say!

[Mastermind]

Well ideally yeah, we should all care for each other etc...I'm just saying that if you've been punched in the face enough times, you'll get onboard the learning curve. They most likely have drunks, junkies and bums passing out in their lobby every day...especially at night or when it rains.

I worked at the service window of a cellular store for a few years and I swear I'd rather have a job doing artificial insemination on tigers. I started that job as a bright eyed enthusiastic young man, and ended it with a crushed soul and a deeply suspicious nature...always wondering how the person I was talking to was trying to con me. After a while I learned a few things - never address anybody by their first name...always Mr. or Miss - avoid eye contact - ask open ended questions - avoid making commitments - if they're crying, or propping up their ****s on the counter, ignore it and move on - every conversation was a battle.

I hated it - I suspect that the people working these inner-city emergency rooms are bombarded with so much human detritus that they've become immune to caring. I know that sucks, and it shouldn't be that way...I'm just saying that they're not evil bad people- IMO they're just displaying their coping kills, unfortunately. They've got to face disciplinary action....but I think an investigation of conditions/staffing levels at that hospital should also be done.
Yeah...the same thing happend to me working in a Prison for 12 years...But...I never let myself get so cynical I could not perform my job. I learned how to make sure every event was real or not...I always kept my eyes moving, checked every corner...and when I saw an inmae get quiet, sullen, sleeping a lot...I never 'avoided" my duty...I developed ways of finding out what was going on. I watched other guards get burned out and it really began to cost in people's misery. I'm just saying, when I saw those security gurads peeking around corners at this woman...this miserable peed-on, sht stained woman...they just crept away and never even approached her....in my book...MM's book of how things should be...that's totally fkd up. If they are that burned down...then they need to get a new job...as you and I both (apparently) did when we saw our limit.

[Maktab]

This actually doesn't have anything to do with being insured or not. Kings County Hospital is a public hospital which offers subsidised or free care to the poor and uninsured. This woman was not kept waiting because she had no medical insurance.

Instead, it's a shocking indictment of the staff at one of New York's largest public hospitals and the extent to which they have allowed themselves to be de-sensitised to the point at which they could leave a woman lying on the ground without even thinking about helping her. Rightly so, all those involved have been fired.

But while there are many valid issues with health insurance in the US and legitimate questions about the entire industry, this particular case had nothing to do with it. Let's not get sidetracked.

[seathru]

KCH is not just another inner city hospital. It is the inner city hospital, located in the worst area of NY metropolitan - Flatbush/East New York. Granted, it is a public hospital, and belongs to New York City. No private hospitals will ever set foot in such locations.

In the U.S., public hospitals only open in poverty-stricken, under-served neighborhoods. Unlike private hospitals, by law, these hospitals must treat every one who comes in, even for non-emergency conditions. These hospitals are not for profit - it is not possible to be profitable to operate in this way. For patients, the trade-off for low cost or free treatment is ultra-long waiting times.

I have my deepest sympathy with the patient, who had 8 children. I also have a little sympathy for the staff: they are under-staffed and overworked. Who would work in such hospitals, if they get a chance to work in rich areas in Long Island or Manhattan?

As a general rule, hospital is a place you should avoid at almost all costs. It is full of germs and human errors. It is hazardous to your health, unless in extremely urgent, life-threatening situations.

I believe the U.S. government should establish national health care, and take over all hospitals. The situation now is that the government is treating the poorest (public hospitals), and government insurance (medicaid and medicare) covers the sickest (disabled, senior citizens), while the private hospital treats only those who have insurance or rich enough to pay out-of -pocket, and private insurance companies cherry-pick their patients, and only insures those who are most healthy (healthy enough to hold a job).

Wonder where your money went? Private insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies.

[LEGEND]

Insurance has nothing to do with it, every one has to be admitted and cared for in the ER. Taxpayers and those who pay for insurance pick up the tab. Bums just give someone else name and never get charged for it. As for the indifference, thats Brooklyn for you.

[Zoomie]

I believe the U.S. government should establish national health care, and take over all hospitals.
Yes! Brilliant idea, since the government runs the DMV, Post Office, and Social Security soooo well and efficiently too! :roll:

[Gulag]

Saw it in news... That's just the way people are these days

[therifleman]

Give it a day before Sharpy or Jesse are all over this one.

[Afro-European]

Give it a day before Sharpy or Jesse are all over this one.
My thought exactly.It wouldn't surprise me if those clowns jump in and turn into a racial issue.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I'm just saying, when I saw those security gurads peeking around corners at this woman...this miserable peed-on, sht stained woman...they just crept away and never even approached her....in my book...MM's book of how things should be...that's totally fkd up.

The bit of video I saw didn't show that. I assumed that other things were going on and the staff was too busy or distracted to notice somebody quietly falling over. If there were employees who actively avoided somebody they observed lying face down on the floor for several minutes...well that goes beyond what I could attribute to burn out.

>edit< damn I wish I'd seen the full youtube vid right off the bat. This wasn't just an emergency room...it's a damn psychiatric emergency room - the waiting room for the loony bin. You would think that they'd be adequately staffed and trained to deal with any possible type of odd behavior. Well of course that also means they get the worst of the worst in there. :(

[Power_serj]

US hospitals operate on the basis that the first thing they ask you is, please give me your insurance card? My work self-insured, so I would pay cash, and then get reimbursed. But they were used to people saying 'No insurance' and then defaulting to rush them out the door with security. So I literally had to have to have the cash in my hand to wave at them in response to the question 'Please provide you insurance card' and immediately say 'I am not insured but I will pay cash' waving the cash to avoid the 'bums rush' plan being enacted for the uninsured.

What is pathetic is that the insurers with their bargaining power get a lower rate than the uninsured. So if you pay cash for a consultation as uninsured you might be charged $400. The insurer only has to pay $120.

It is terrible that a country so rich let's so many of its people not have any access to health care. People are literally dying because they have no insurance and that is very sad.

You seem to be very ignorant on what really what is legal. It is illegal for a hospital to not treat someone on the basis of insurance. We have doctors here to treat people who don't need emergency care but are sick. What people do is not pay for insurance and go to the hospital when they get sick to try to get away without paying. What this does is occupy the hospitals time with non-emergency patients. Therefore, these medical non-emergencies patients have to wait until they are ready.

It is very ignorant to say that people are dying because they don't have care. It is illegal for a doctor to not accept someone on the account of money or insurance. No one in this country dies because of the lack of medical insurance. That's a big problem we have with illegal immigrants who have no documentation. They go to hospitals when they are sick to get care and don't pay a dime. This here is illegal. Do not imply that this is something normal because it is not. Doctors lose their medical license and go to jail for refusing to treat someone.


What could they do as a patient? Likely to get sued for assisting without being properly qualified by the patients family. Better not to do anything, or try and alert staff. If the staff ignored them, then you cant really do anything more.

You're wrong again. We have good samaritan laws in this country. If someone went to go to see if she was okay and flipped her over they would not be allowed to be sued. However, if someone tried something they are not qualified in such as CPR and killed her, then they could be sued.

[Calanen]

Yes, the U.S. health care SUCKS!! It starts with poor education system. Most doctors are very narrow minded and have little time to keep their education current. Many doctors are book smart and dumb as a box of rocks as far as common sense.


I'm sorry about your father, but my experience in the US was you can get the best care anywhere on the planet...you just have to pay a lot for it. I'm not saying that everybody there gets the best care - because most cant afford that sort of treatment. But if you have the cash, US doctors are at the forefront of medicine. Scripps in San Diego where I lived is a leader in just about everything.

[Calanen]

You seem to be very ignorant on what really what is legal. It is illegal for a hospital to not treat someone on the basis of insurance. We have doctors here to treat people who don't need emergency care but are sick.


Yes I am very very ignorant. I practised as an attorney in California and would have no idea what was legal, please edumacate me.......

There are all sorts of things about how hospitals are *meant* to treat people without insurance, but it doesnt mean that they do. And you know it.

[SkyUS]

That's a big problem we have with illegal immigrants who have no documentation. They go to hospitals when they are sick to get care and don't pay a dime. This here is illegal.

Now you seem to be ignorant most illegal aliens, the undocumented ones, won't do that because they are scared that when they will be asked for some documents and when they will be unable to show them they will be at risk with the authorities which may mean deportation. That's at least what they think, they prefer to stay low on the radar.

The ironic thing is that a lot of these aliens pay their taxes, so its not like they don't pay the dime.

[therifleman]

I'm sure it's not the first time a halucinating patient has wretched over in the psychiatric waiting room, so this may be part of why she was ignored.

[packetloss]

Im curious: All of you dudes who are sitting there saying insurance or the many other (terrible) excuses for not helping someone - Would you do the same? Sit there quietly and keep watching TV for the next hour as she wriggles and dies there?

What if that was your mom?

Would ANY of you actually sit there, worry about insurance, while someone dies in front of you getting no help in a hospital waiting room?

[Calanen]

Im curious: All of you dudes who are sitting there saying insurance or the many other (terrible) excuses for not helping someone - Would you do the same? Sit there quietly and keep watching TV for the next hour as she wriggles and dies there?

What if that was your mom?

Would ANY of you actually sit there, worry about insurance, while someone dies in front of you getting no help in a hospital waiting room?

Yes, as I've said before it is NEVER a good idea to help anyone in an emergency unless you are a doctor or an EMT. If the person dies, the family will sue you for negligence. Your thanks will be at the very least a case that goes for a few years, bankrupts you in legal fees, even if you win. If you lose, same result again.

Power_serj think's he's an expert on US tort law despite having neither a law degree nor having passed the bar or worked in the area.

Good samaritan laws vary from state to state, but do not provide absolute immunity - and a sympathetic jury might think, hell yeah, why were you treating this person when you had no medical degree, no license to practice medicine, were not trained as an EMT? Also to get the benefit of a good Samaritan law, you have to have been certified in First Aid.

Something else you might not know - in Vermont and Minnesota its against the law to fail to render assistance. Only a misdemeanour however.

Vermont:

Duty to Aid the Endangered Act (Good Samaritan Law)
Title 12, Chapter 23 ;SS 519:
Emergency Medical Care
(a) A person who knows another is exposed to grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the same can be rendered without danger or peril to himself or without interference with important duties owed to others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person unless that assistance or care is being provided by others.
(b) A person who provides reasonable assistance in compliance with subsection (a) of this section shall not be liable in civil damages unless his actions constitute gross negligence or unless he will receive or expects to receive remuneration.Nothing contained in this subsection shall alter existing law with respect to tort liability of a practitioner of the healing arts for acts committed in the ordinary course of his practice.
(c) A person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than $100.00 -- 1967 No. 309(adjourned session) SS 2-4 effective March 22, 1968.
Limited liability of Volunteer EMS Personnel

Minnesota:

604A.01
Good Samaritan law
Subdivision 1. Duty to assist. A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person. Reasonable assistance may include obtaining or attempting to obtain aid from law enforcement or medical personnel. A person who violates this subdivision is guilty of a petty misdemeanor


If I was in the hospital, I would have alerted the staff, but that's all.

[packetloss]

Im curious: All of you dudes who are sitting there saying insurance or the many other (terrible) excuses for not helping someone - Would you do the same? Sit there quietly and keep watching TV for the next hour as she wriggles and dies there?




If I was in the hospital, I would have alerted the staff, but that's all.

There you have it. I wasnt asking about rendering CPR, i am talking about getting some help/attention - stand in the middle of the room and SCREAM.

The peanut gallery did NONE of that. This isnt a case of 'oh im afraid id be sued' - as stated previously this is disgusting big city american style negligence rolled in detachment with a bigass side of 'not my problem'.

I think of that seinfeld episode where they all go to jail for doing nothing.

[Hunterhr]

disgusting big city american style negligence

:roll:

Quaint.

[therifleman]

Keep in mind that the people in the waiting room where psycyatric patients and may have been incapacitated.

[packetloss]

:roll:

Quaint.

But wrong?

Do you hear about this in small town? Can you not identify with big city american detachment? Do you not understand this hospital (and many like it) have been in this same situation before? Have you ever seen anyone as indifferent as your average brooklyn resident?

[therifleman]

I approve. The world is over-populated anyway.

[LEGEND]

Some info about the hospital:
"Kings County hospital has paid out more than 1/3 of all malpractice claims against the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation (over $60 million). Since there are 11 city hospitals, this indicates that Kings County hospital has a very high amount of malpractice claims compared to other city hospitals. Kings County hospitals has been the most sued hospital of the city's health care system."


As for comparing to little towns, do your hospitals get this honor of having this kind of program set up there by the US Army? People at that place have to deal with "victims" coming shot and cut on a daily basis, so the sight of someone lying on the floor without a pool of blood is not something that will startle them.
"In 2003, the United States Army established a training program at the hospital called the Academy of Advanced Combat Medicine to train reservists in an emergency room that has received 600 cases per year of gunshot and stabbing victims."

[packetloss]

I can imagine there would be some bullet or knife wounds in my region, if that was my mother. :)

Cant say im terribly upset that the army cant deal with combat wounds at my local hospitals, though.

[Christophe]

IMO it has nothing to do with the US health care system or being able to give first aid to someone or not.
It is just the fact that society has come to a point where no one gives a ****; it happens here in Europe as well as in the US.
People get mugged, wounded, whatever,-most people do not react anymore.
Welcome to real world.

[CantGetRight]

such a shame, this event and the other with the man getting hit by a car in the street, shows americans doing nothing to help the victims, watching, standing by, its a cancerous flaw in our society that needs to be addressed

[Power_serj]

Now you seem to be ignorant most illegal aliens, the undocumented ones, won't do that because they are scared that when they will be asked for some documents and when they will be unable to show them they will be at risk with the authorities which may mean deportation. That's at least what they think, they prefer to stay low on the radar.

The ironic thing is that a lot of these aliens pay their taxes, so its not like they don't pay the dime.

Hospitals' business is not to deport people. I've done many papers and it is very easy for them to get health care without paying and without getting in trouble. What gives you the idea that illegal aliens pay taxes. The only taxes they pay are sales tax because that is unavoidable. How would they pay their taxes even if they wanted? There is no possible way for them to taxes even if they wanted.

Now Calanen, you said you're a practicing lawyer in California yet your location is stated as Australia and you misspelled "practicing." Now that's a little curious.

[Ratamacue]

Now Calanen, you said you're a practicing lawyer in California yet your location is stated as Australia and you misspelled "practicing." Now that's a little curious.First, he said he practised. Past tense, not present. Second, look up the spelling differences between American and British English. Hell, I'll do it for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences#-ce.2C_-se

Nouns ending in -ce with -se verb forms: American English and British English both retain the noun/verb distinction in advice / advise and device / devise, but American English has abandoned the distinction with licence / license and practice / practise (where the two words in each pair are homophones) that British spelling retains. American English uses practice and license for both meanings.

[Calanen]

Now Calanen, you said you're a practicing lawyer in California yet your location is stated as Australia and you misspelled "practicing." Now that's a little curious.

You wanna call me out as a poser chump? I said 'practised..' as in past tense.

In that past I was...practising..practising..practising... and you notice my location like you are some super sleuth.

Do you know the difference between American English and Australian English? How about you pour a really large beverage of STFU?

http://www.cald.asn.au/slia/Practising.htm#Practising



Practising throughout Australia
After gaining admission and obtaining a practising certificate, lawyers admitted to practice in one State or Territory can apply and be admitted and obtain a practising certificate in another State or Territory under the mutual recognition scheme. However, under the national practising certificate scheme, this is usually not now necessary.

The national practising certificate scheme provides that lawyers entitled to practise in one State or Territory can practise in another without having to obtain a practising certificate in the latter jurisdiction. It negates the need to incur costs associated with registration in the latter jurisdiction under the mutual recognition scheme. The national practising certificate scheme operates in every State and Territory.

[Hollis]

Now Calanen, you said you're a practicing lawyer in California yet your location is stated as Australia and you misspelled "practicing." Now that's a little curious.



Now slow down, I know Cal, and he is licensed to practise law in Califronia.


BTW, I am a loosy speller too.............. So Chill.

or us bad speller will have our revengay, damn how is that spelt?

[JJC]

Kings County is one of the worst hospitals in Brooklyn, but surprisingly their ER has a reputation for gunshot trauma care. If you will get shot, your ambulance will most likely end up at Kings County.
My mother's uncle died at 65 because of a somewhat similar situation. He came to an ER in Brooklyn (known for best cardiac care), and he had to wait over 45 minutes before a nurse checked him out. His aorta ruptured and he was bleeding internally while he was waiting. When they took him into emergency surgery, it was too late. MONEY TALKS.......

[Calanen]

Now slow down, I know Cal, and he is licensed to practise law in Califronia.


BTW, I am a loosy speller too.............. So Chill.

or us bad speller will have our revengay, damn how is that spelt?

Thanks Hollis.

And one day we will teach you guys that Honour has a U goddamit!

[T3ngu]

Thanks Hollis.

And one day we will teach you guys that Honour has a U goddamit!

Don't forget

- colour
- odour
- s not z :)

I read about that poor lady the other day, not a good thing to happen anywhere, anytime.

[deagle]

that is disturbing.

[DaveDash]

I would agree with Calanen's assesment.

The U.S. health care system is excellent if you can afford it. My friends from Canada are constantly bitching and moaning about the egress of their best doctors to the U.S. where they are paid much better.

Coming from NZ which has a failing public health system (based on the Canadian one)- I'm not so sure the 'pay for what you get' system is all that bad. Most people in Australia/NZ I know get private health care insurance anyway since public is just barely better than none. Hell my understanding is here in Victoria/Australia you have to pay for emergency services and they're not cheap ($700 for a trip to the hospital in an Ambulance I think?). They don't turn you away however.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

You don't have to pay for emergency health treatement in Australia.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Rest IN peace.

[futurepilot2004]

You don't have to pay for emergency health treatement in Australia.

Not here either, still can`t fathom how something like this could be allowed to happen.
I`m fairly sure the staff would be charged if the same thing happened here, even the other patients might be because you are obliged to render assistance to someone in need(so long as it doesn`t put you in grave danger)