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Ordie
07-02-2008, 11:53 AM
Lower East Side Rezoning, in Translation

By Jennifer 8. Lee (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/author/jlee/)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/30/nyregion/zoning_proposed-190.jpg

The proposed zoning map for the Lower East Side. (Map courtesy of New York City Department of City Planning) Enlarge this Image (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/06/30/nyregion/30zone.cityroom.ready.html)
Should Community Boards offer interpreters for their public hearings?
That became a topic of contention (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0821,border-war-in-chinatown,446668,2.html) when a wonky zoning meeting on May 12 about the Lower East Side rezoning erupted into screaming, accusations of racism and an arrest (http://thevillager.com/villager_258/whataboutus.html). (Watch some subtitled footage (http://mnncommunitymedia.blip.tv/file/930207/) of the raucous conflict, as well as an NY1 segment on the meeting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqXmI4QYncI).)
The demonstrators demanded Chinese and Spanish translators for the Community Board 3 (http://www.nyc.gov/html/mancb3/html/home/home.shtml) meeting, but their protests were really pointing to a deeper anxiety about the rezoning process — the exclusion of minorities.
The protesters argued that a 111-block rezoning plan pushed by the Department of City Planning for the Lower East Side (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/evles/evles3.shtml) protects the more affluent and white areas, while excluding the poorer, predominantly Asian-American and Latino neighborhoods.
Using 2000 Census data, the Coalition to Protect Chinatown and the Lower East Side, which was recently formed, points out that while Community Board 3 is 28 percent white, almost three-quarters (73 percent) of that population sits in the rezoned area.
In contrast, Asian-Americans are a greater percentage of Community Board 3, at 35 percent of the population, but fewer than a quarter of that (23 percent) are in the rezoned area. And only 37 percent of Latinos live in the protected area, even though they are roughly the same percentage as the population as whites for the Community Board as a whole.
The area to be rezoned (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/evles/evles3.shtml) is bounded by East 13th Street to the north, Avenue D to the east, Grand and Delancey Streets to the south, and Third Avenue and the Bowery to the west. The protesters claimed that the rezoning would simply shift the high-rise development pressures from inside the protected area into the neighboring areas which are predominantly Latino and Asian-American.
But at the meeting, David McWater, the chairperson of Community Board 3 at the time, denied the zoning plan was anti-minority (http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_262/cb3feels.html) and argued that the rezoning plans to protect Chinatown and other areas could come later. However, give the investment that has already gone into this process it is wiser to move forward.
In May, the full Community Board passed the rezoning plan. In July, it is scheduled to go to the Manhattan borough president’s office for approval. Then, it would go to the City Council.
So what is the city’s policy on translators and public hearings?
Local Law 73 (http://www.nyc.gov/html/imm/html/executive/ll73.shtml) mandates that four city social services agencies — Administration for Children’s Services, Human Resources Administration (which handles and food stamps and other public assistance), the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and the Department for Homeless Services — offered fairly extensive translation services, including translating documents into six languages and having bilingual staff on hand. These agencies also have a contract with Language Line Services, a 24-hour phone translation service. (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904E3D9173AF931A15757C0A9629C8B63)
In addition, the mayor’s office said its Office of Immigrant Services has worked with 31 other city agencies to help provide translation services — by setting up a shared translation contract that agencies can opt into.
As a result, the city does offer translators for public hearings and meetings by held city agencies (like the Department of the Aging and Department of Education), according to the mayor’s office.
“Given the city’s large limited-English proficient population, city agencies offer interpreter services,” said Yvonne Erskine, a spokeswoman for the mayor’s office. The most popular languages offered include Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, Russian, Haitian Creole and Korean.
However, the community boards (http://www.nyc.gov/html/cau/html/cb/place_in_gov.shtml) are not run by the city’s central administration. They fall under the jurisdiction of the City Council and borough presidents’ offices, which together make all the appointments and provide the financing.
Thus, they do not fall into the network of translation services offered by the central administration.
“We don’t have a specific policy,” said Susan Stetzer, the district manager for Community Board 3. “The city has no resources for us. It’s a very difficult problem.”
Each community board this year will get a $189,000 budget, which includes salaries, supplies, repairs but not rent. Ms. Stetzer added: “In our budget request, we have asked for resources to be able to translate. But as you know, the budget is pretty poor shape.”
To cope, she said, sometimes the board members translate and sometimes organized groups will bring their own translators. She said she always asks for city handouts in three written languages: English, Spanish and Chinese. When the city offered automatic translation for Web sites, she asked for a link on the Community Board 3 Web site, and got it immediately.
Ms. Stetzer said: “We try. We don’t have resources. We absolutely try the best we can. We very much understand it’s a problem. We recognize this is a diverse community that speaks many languages. We try very hard to work with our constituents and serve our constituents.”

Source:http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/lower-east-side-rezoning-in-translation/

Mastermind
07-02-2008, 12:10 PM
The trouble is, we refuse to recognize English as the language of the land. Multi-culturalism is the cyanide pill for a cohesive society. Thus divided, we will never succeed in securing a sound future for this nation.

Gfunk
07-02-2008, 02:15 PM
The trouble is, we refuse to recognize English as the language of the land. Multi-culturalism is the cyanide pill for a cohesive society. Thus divided, we will never succeed in securing a sound future for this nation.

Couldn't have said it better myself. One people, one language, one America.

Marshall_Nord
07-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Overt diversity = Overt divisions

Laworkerbee
07-02-2008, 04:01 PM
The trouble is, we refuse to recognize English as the language of the land. Multi-culturalism is the cyanide pill for a cohesive society. Thus divided, we will never succeed in securing a sound future for this nation.

X2 English must come first, every other place in the world operates on the same basis.

Ordie
07-02-2008, 04:07 PM
What if the development in question happened to be a proposed chemical plant located next to a residential neighborhood where English is not the primary language?

Does it violate the EPA's Environmental Justice guidelines if the meetings were conducted with English only liturature and language?

What about accomodations for the deaf and blind?

Laworkerbee
07-02-2008, 04:10 PM
Damn you and your excellent hypothetical question. I'm tired of you making me challenge my assumptions.

Zoomie
07-02-2008, 04:28 PM
What if the development in question happened to be a proposed chemical plant located next to a residential neighborhood where English is not the primary language?

Does it violate the EPA's Environmental Justice guidelines if the meetings were conducted with English only liturature and language?

What about accomodations for the deaf and blind?
So answer this Ordie, if I go to the same neighborhood and they conducted meetings in a non-English language, should I expect them to provide me a translator?

Power_serj
07-02-2008, 04:31 PM
A better idea would to have these people learn English or GTFO.

Adux
07-02-2008, 04:35 PM
X2 English must come first, every other place in the world operates on the same basis.

Though I agree with the above contention that One language is quite important, It is 'not' required for everyone to know Hindi, nor do I agree with that contention. But unlike America, all these languages belong to this nation, while Spanish or anyother is foriegn to America.

seraosha
07-02-2008, 05:14 PM
Since it is impacting these folks lives, I think a Spanish and Chinese translation of the minutes could be provided for those that want to review the proceedings. As well as a braille and English transcript for the sight/hearing impaired.

Those that want to participate in the proceedings should bring their own translators for live-time interaction...even a family member is sufficient for a quick on the fly translation.

This is hardly news.

Ordie
07-02-2008, 05:21 PM
So answer this Ordie, if I go to the same neighborhood and they conducted meetings in a non-English language, should I expect them to provide me a translator?

At minimum, written proposals should be translated in another local language of relevance (Spanish, Chinese, Hindi, Farsi etc...), posted and distributed. It does not cost much and can be converted into a pdf and electronically sent to community based organizations.

Translation services should be offered by request with at least 48 hours notice prior to a meeting. That gives the project managers enough time to get an on-call professional intrepetor.

In most cases the presentations are conducted in English, while the intrepetor is seated with the non native speakers translating.

Any outreach to non-native speaking community would only add credibility and legitimacy to any proposed development.

Andrew Chalmers
07-02-2008, 06:19 PM
If you want a single-language society - enforce it in the schools, not by denying people an opportunity to participate in the democratic process.

Winger
07-02-2008, 10:54 PM
If you want a single-language society - enforce it in the schools, not by denying people an opportunity to participate in the democratic process.

They deny only themselves by not assimilating. Learn the damn language, no excuses.

I think I'll join the Legion and ask them to speak English or Spanish just for me? How well do you think that would go over?

el borracho
07-02-2008, 11:24 PM
Why should the city provide a translator? I guarantee you can find a friend or relative to translate for you. If the ethnic communities cared enough, they could send an informal representative fluent in English to get the information instead of waiting to be spoon-fed.

sir-chimp
07-02-2008, 11:33 PM
Why should the city provide a translator? I guarantee you can find a friend or relative to translate for you. If the ethnic communities cared enough, they could send an informal representative fluent in English to get the information instead of waiting to be spoon-fed.

you intolerant racist

Hellfish
07-02-2008, 11:54 PM
I look at it more practically. The vast, vast, vast majority of people that attend these meetings will speak English. The issue is, they just might not be fluent. An immigrant small business owner, be it a Mexican, Korean, Chinese, Indian, Irish, Pakistani or Greek, might have some conversational English. They can offer you products to sell, order inventory, exchange money, create advertising, talk about the ballgame or the weather, etc.

The problem is when you get into what people talk about in these meetings - legal terms, zoning terms, government-speak, etc. A lot of people might not know what "caucus" or "redistricting" or other forms of archaic vocabulary that is used at these meetings (herein, hereto, hereby, heretofore, whereas, whereby, and wherefore, etc) means. Nevermind those terms that derive from or are original Latin (jurisprudence, prima facie, etc) and Greek (or French/German, etc).

You can't expect people who grew up without native English to know what all this means, yet it is vital for them to understand it when attending or reading minutes from local governmental meetings. Hell, how many native American English speakers can tell you what most of those terms means?

We've all looked at contracts, rental agreements, ballot initiatives, the minutes of meetings, etc., and not had any idea what it meant. We usually get a lawyer or accountant or notary to translate them for us.

This is really no different. If a new zoning law is being debated for your local Chinatown or the primarily Mexican school district or Little Italy, the people have a right to comprehend what is going on. It is their livelyhood at stake, not yours.

You guys are feeling way too threatened by something that is really a non-issue.

Everyone's family came here from somewhere and they all adapt. My grandparents moved here from Sweden and Germany in the early 1910s and when they died in the 80s, they still didn't speak fluent English. My parents did, though. I did too. I remember my parents having to translate some things for their own parents, or family friends would do it.

Hellfish
07-03-2008, 12:00 AM
Why should the city provide a translator? I guarantee you can find a friend or relative to translate for you. If the ethnic communities cared enough, they could send an informal representative fluent in English to get the information instead of waiting to be spoon-fed.

I appreciate what you're saying, but that encourages polarization, IMHO. If you FORCE a community to rely on each other instead of others outside that community, you're just going to strengthen that community.

If y'all are so worried about people not learning English, you need to stop encouraging them to not learn English in the first place. If you're forcing immigrants to live withing their own communities or neighborhoods where they rely on each other, you're just gonna create environments where English becomes totally unnecessary.

By providing translation services at the local level, you're encouraging independence.

Ordie
07-03-2008, 01:04 AM
By providing translation services at the local level, you're encouraging independence.

Hellfish,
Excellent point shipmate.

ren0312
07-03-2008, 02:06 AM
I appreciate what you're saying, but that encourages polarization, IMHO. If you FORCE a community to rely on each other instead of others outside that community, you're just going to strengthen that community.

If y'all are so worried about people not learning English, you need to stop encouraging them to not learn English in the first place. If you're forcing immigrants to live withing their own communities or neighborhoods where they rely on each other, you're just gonna create environments where English becomes totally unnecessary.

By providing translation services at the local level, you're encouraging independence.

Here instructions in most government offices and official government business and proceedings are mainy conducted in English, or in Filipino, but not in other languages, even though we have a sizable Chinese and Korean population in Manila, most immigrants just try to learn both languages.

Calanen
07-03-2008, 03:22 AM
No. I disagree with all this translation stuff. The only people that should get assistance learning the language are those seeking political asylum on refugee grounds. Everyone else, learn the language or put up with not being able to speak it.

Andrew Chalmers
07-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Maybe we should keep all democratic measures in technical jargon - after all, it is the voter's responsibility to get familiarized with the matter; and if they don't put in the effort to learn, well they're not trying hard enough.

:|:roll:

hughdotoh
07-04-2008, 12:58 PM
What's the point of migrating to a country when you're not willing to learn the language? Shouldn't it be a standard for immigration? A whole lot of Europeans take pains to learn Cantonese in Hong Kong, simply because they know it makes for better business and good PR. English is the default in at least 3 SE Asian countries, and you don't even need to learn a native language to immigrate there, not that there's anything worth migrating there for.

Then again, it's INS' fault. Those bureaucrats screen out the wrong people and let in the sort that fly planes into buildings.

Hellfish
07-04-2008, 06:53 PM
What's the point of migrating to a country when you're not willing to learn the language? Shouldn't it be a standard for immigration? A whole lot of Europeans take pains to learn Cantonese in Hong Kong, simply because they know it makes for better business and good PR. English is the default in at least 3 SE Asian countries, and you don't even need to learn a native language to immigrate there, not that there's anything worth migrating there for.

Then again, it's INS' fault. Those bureaucrats screen out the wrong people and let in the sort that fly planes into buildings.

Read what I wrote. The vast majority of them do speak English, yet they might not be familiar with all the English terms used. It isn't easy to be 100% fluent in English when it is your second or third language, but that shouldn't exclude a person from knowing what their adoptive government is doing.

Besides that, I've met plenty of native English speakers/Americans who aren't 100% fluent either. Ebonics, anyone? Trailer talk, anyone?

Hot Lips
07-04-2008, 08:52 PM
The trouble is, we refuse to recognize English as the language of the land. Multi-culturalism is the cyanide pill for a cohesive society. Thus divided, we will never succeed in securing a sound future for this nation.

x10!!!!

Personally I think the expense of such things should fall back on the individual that needs it. Not understanding English isn't the same as being born with a handicap and needing ongoing assistance in order to be a functioning member of society. If I don't understand a legal document I hire a lawyer to explain it. If I move to France, I'm not going to whine to their government about not knowing French. I'm going to learn it and/or pay for translations services until I do. Likewise, legal immigrants in the U.S. have resources for learning English and can subscribe to translation services for themselves. I think the expense should circle back to them or come out of the pocket of the businesses that want them as customers... but not pass along the expense to nor burden consumers/tax payers in general that don't need the services with it.

That said... I'm with Hellfish and Ordie in this instance. In such community matters as in this example, it's important that all participants have a reasonable understanding what is going on. Hellfish is spot on with fluent English speakers not fully understanding legalese most of the time. It could be very easy to dupe an unsuspecting community through language barriers and they know it. With sufficient notice, the developers should have obligations to provide this service (out of their own pockets) or postpone meetings until they can.