Kerry says Bush has mismanaged U.S. military

[J-10]

03 Jun 2004 17:01:06 GMT
(updates with speech, previous KANSAS CITY)
By Patricia Wilson

INDEPENDENCE, Mo., June 3 (*******) - Democratic challenger John Kerry on Thursday accused President George W. Bush of mismanaging the U.S. military, effectively instituting a "back-door draft" and complicating the mission in Iraq.

The decorated Vietnam War veteran said the United States had gone into Iraq with too few troops to prevent looting and crime and had neglected to secure almost a million tons of conventional weapons now being used against them.

"These mistakes have complicated our mission and complicated our objective -- a stable Iraq with a representative government secure in its borders," Kerry said.

The presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, in a speech on modernizing the U.S. military at the Truman Presidential Library, said change was essential now that the old Cold War enemy had been replaced by threats from groups using "terror as a sword and religion as a shield."

Kerry proposed to temporarily add 40,000 troops to the 480,000-strong active-duty Army at an estimated cost of between $5 billion and $8 billion paid for by halting premature deployment of an "unproven" missile defense system.

Kerry, a senator from Massachusetts and a 20-year veteran of the Foreign Relations Committee, also said he would double U.S. Special Forces capability to about 10,000, provide state-of-the-art equipment to all soldiers and transform the National Guard by using it for homeland security.

"We can't meet the threats of this new century with a military from the last one," he said. "The rhetoric of toughness is not enough to make us safe. We need tough decisions to strengthen the American military so we can find and get the terrorists before they get us."

About 20,000 of the two new divisions would be combat troops. The other 20,000 would be individuals with specialties in post-conflict skills, such as civil affairs and the military police in order to relieve the burden on the National Guard and Reserve.

Kerry blasted the Bush administration's order preventing thousands of soldiers designated for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan from leaving the military even when their volunteer service commitment expires.

'BACK-DOOR' DRAFT

He said the move underscored how overextended the U.S. military was as the Pentagon tries to maintain adequate troop levels in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 138,000 American troops are in Iraq and some 13,000 in Afghanistan.

"The administration's answer has been to put band-aids on the problem," Kerry told invited guests in Independence. "They have effectively used a stop-loss policy as a back-door draft."

Extended tours of duty, delayed retirements and overuse of the Guard and Reserves meant the United States was in danger of creating "a hollow Army" with "too few ready to fight," he said.

Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot charged Kerry, who voted for the Iraq war, with failing to support the troops financially by voting against $87 billion for operations. He also cited Kerry's failure to appear in the Senate on Wednesday to vote on Bush's request for an additional $25 million.

"To win the war on terror, America needs a strong and steady leader who supports our troops unconditionally," Racicot said.

Bush and his Republican allies have tried to portray the Democrat as an equivocating liberal, soft on defense and weak on fighting terrorism, but in his speech Kerry vowed: "I will use military force to protect our interests anywhere in the world, whenever necessary."

He also announced a senior military advisory group including former rival and retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, as well as two former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- retired Army Gen. John Shalikashvili and retired Navy Adm. William Crowe.

Locked in a close battle with Bush five months ahead of the Nov. 2 election, Kerry is nearing the end of an 11-day focus on national security as polls show support for the Iraq war dropping and the president's popularity at its lowest level since he took office.


From (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03497472.htm)

[American Patriot]

I hate politicians.

[FallenAngel]

Too few troops?

And who do we have to thank for cutting the Army nearly in half? :roll:

[Secret Squirrel]

Too few troops?

And who do we have to thank for cutting the Army nearly in half? :roll:

Russia for not sustaining the Cold War? :cantbeli:

[Dennis G]

^ how about Clinton

[Tane Angle]

Clinton, of course. Also, both Houses of Congress. But Clinton is no longer in office, and President Bush has had three years and a relatively supporting Congress (and public political atmosphere) to change that fact. Before going into Iraq, we should have made sure we were fully ready. By not completing aqeduate training, and by not having enough equipment and troops, we ran in with out pants still around our ankles.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Merik]

Where the f*$@ is he going to find 40,000 more troops?

[Secret Squirrel]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?

[Beowulf]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait?

[California Joe]

Shinseki told him he needed more troops. He ****canned him. Rumsfeld is an arrogant little CEO kinda Napoleonic prick isn't he.

[Secret Squirrel]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait?

Like in a major occupation of another country after toppling its former regime.

[Trigger]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait?

Like in a major occupation of another country after toppling its former regime.
Panama?

[Secret Squirrel]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait?

Like in a major occupation of another country after toppling its former regime.
Panama?

I thought that there was only 24,000 U.S. troops in Panama, which is hardly a comparison to 135,000 in Iraq. I meant during the period from the first gulf war to now, where the U.S military was reduced to 1/3 of its former size. Arguably, the "road to Baghdad" began in 2001.

[XASA]

The Powell Doctrine simply put was to have the support of the American people, build a coalition, use overwhelming force and have an exit strategy. Rumsfeld felt that was an outdated doctrine and went in on a theory that America's technological advantage didn't require any of the above. Now, brave men and women are paying the price for that arrogance.

To the youngsters who are so adamant in your support for the current Iraqi mess: Do you have any idea what it means to you and your family to be extended in a war zone? Even if you avoid being wounded or killed, it doesn't end once the troops are home. There will be divorces, financial problems and pyschological issues. Let's not forget, too, how fickle the American public can be when it comes to supporting the troops-- just ask a Vietnam Veteran.

Since most of the forum seems to presently made up of adolescents who think war is cool, it isn't. War isn't a video game that you can put on pause when you want to go to the bathroom, or a day playing Airsoft where you can get up after being hit and go out later for a beer.

War sucks, so you better know what the hell you are doing before you start one, which, sad to say, doesn't seem to be the case with Iraq.

[American Patriot]

The Military is doing a damn good job.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Since most of the forum seems to presently made up of adolescents who think war is cool, it isn't. War isn't a video game that you can put on pause when you want to go to the bathroom, or a day playing Airsoft where you can get up after being hit and go out later for a beer.

:roll:

[ibstolidude]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait? or the 40+ k in the balkans or korea or germany or italy or...hey wait a minute!

[Secret Squirrel]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait? or the 40+ k in the balkans or korea or germany or italy or...hey wait a minute!

Hrm...could have sworn i said operating...since the first gulf war when the U.S military was significantly reduced....and occupation....wouldnt that involve military ops... rofl There's been fighting in Germany in the last 10 years? rofl You consider 10,000 U.S troops in the balkans in Oct. 2001 a large occupation?

[Tane Angle]

100_Percent_HOOAH wrote:

:roll:

Was XASA lying? He's right; war is not a game, and it is done too readily these days. I sincerely hope that you and everyone else here never have to bury your loved ones or your men and women. And I sincerely hope that if you do have to, that at the very least the dead were adequately trained, given the best of body armors and helmets available, and died for something necessary and worthwhile, and that the cause they died for was not abandoned soon after their death.

XASA is a very wise and intelligent man. I for one pay attention when he makes a post. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Trigger]

Let's not forget, too, how fickle the American public can be when it comes to supporting the troops-- just ask a Vietnam Veteran.

Why can't we remember how awesome the American public support can be? Let's ask some WW2 Vets instead of pointing fingers all the time. Imagine what we could accomplish.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

It's not that I disagree about his post in it's entirety, or he was lying. I just disagree that a majority of the younger people think that way. I'm sure there is an amount that think war is cool, but I know much better and I know many younger people that do not see war as a game. I am from a military family..I've heard the horror stories and seen the after effects that war causes. My uncle served as a SEAL in Vietnam and he is so mentally f*cked up, I don't even know who he is anymore. I am anything, but blind when it comes to the true nature of war. I don't know, perhaps I'm giving to much credit to the younger ones, but I would assume they would have enough common sense to see war as anything other that horrible. With all the war games and war movies I could see some getting thrown off to the true face of war, and not taking it as serious as it should be.

[Tane Angle]

Very well then. It is unfortunate that you have to be so aware of the horrors.

To be honest, I don't know if it's that some of the younger folks on here think it's a game so much as about half of America thinks it is one. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again: I wouldn't be so frustrated with President Bush and his administration, and I would probably be much more supporting of the idea of going to war in Iraq, if we had taken the necessary measures to intelligently prepare for such a war.

The pre-WWII draft started in what, 1936? Eight years to prepare and we still weren't ready. That's noteworthy.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Very well then. It is unfortunate that you have to be so aware of the horrors.

To be honest, I don't know if it's that some of the younger folks on here think it's a game so much as about half of America thinks it is one. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again: I wouldn't be so frustrated with President Bush and his administration, and I would probably be much more supporting of the idea of going to war in Iraq, if we had taken the necessary measures to intelligently prepare for such a war.

The pre-WWII draft started in what, 1936? Eight years to prepare and we still weren't ready. That's noteworthy.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

I'd rather be aware of the horrors of war then be impervious to them, honestly. I do very much agree with you though, Tane. I support the war in Iraq, but not the timing and preperation. The major short falls that will cost more American's lives, sadly.

[ibstolidude]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait? or the 40+ k in the balkans or korea or germany or italy or...hey wait a minute!

Hrm...could have sworn i said operating...since the first gulf war when the U.S military was significantly reduced....and occupation....wouldnt that involve military ops... rofl There's been fighting in Germany in the last 10 years? rofl You consider 10,000 U.S troops in the balkans in Oct. 2001 a large occupation?
it is okay to be pedantic when you are right - however that is seldom the case with you.

Having worked for NATO as an SSO for various operations to include some commented on, please tell me how many US troops were used in the balkans again??? Also hotshot while you are at it, have we forgotten about operations in the Balkans since early 1990's culiminating in major named operations for the US in 1995 with their crossing of the Sava.

Not to mention named Operations in Somalia, Haiti, Grenada, Panama, GW1, Egypt, Korea, hell I can list over 75 named operations hell, US military operations since 1983 pre 9/11:
Joint Guardian
Allied Force / Noble Anvil
Determined Force
Cobalt Flash
Shining Hope
Sustain Hope / Allied Harbour
Provide Refuge
Open Arms
Eagle Eye
Determined Falcon
Determined Effort
Joint Endeavor
Joint Guard
Joint Forge Bosnia-Herzegovina Jul 1995
DELIBERATE FORCE
Quick Lift
Nomad Vigil
Nomad Endeavor
Able Sentry
Deny Flight
Decisive Endeavor / Decisive Edge
Decisive Guard / Deliberate Guard
Deliberate Forge
Sky Monitor
Maritime Monitor
Maritime Guard
Sharp Guard
Decisive Enhancement
Determined Guard Adriatic Sea Provide Promise
DESERT STRIKE
DESERT THUNDER
DESERT FOX
Shining Presence Israel
Phoenix Scorpion IV
Phoenix Scorpion III
Phoenix Scorpion II
Phoenix Scorpion I
Desert Focus
Vigilant Warrior
Vigilant Sentinel
Intrinsic Action
Desert Spring
Iris Gold
Pacific Haven / Quick Transit
Provide Comfort
Provide Comfort II
Northern Watch
Southern Watch
Desert Falcon
New Horizons
Sierra Leone NEO
MONUC [UN PKO]
Resolute Response
Gatekeeper
Hold-the-Line
Safeguard Texas
Arizona
Golden Pheasant
Alliance
Provide Hope I
Provide Hope II
Provide Hope III
Provide Hope IV
Provide Hope V
Coronet Nighthawk
Coronet Oak Central
Selva Verde Colombia
Badge
Ghost Dancer Oregon
Greensweep
Grizzly California
Wipeout
Ghost Zone
Constant Vigil
Support Justice
Steady State
Green Clover
Laser Strike
Agate Path
Enhanced Ops
Silent Promise
Fundamental Response
Stabilize Timor
Avid Response
Strong Support [Fuerte Apoyo]
Infinite Reach
Shepherd Venture
Asmara, Eritrea NEO
Noble Response
Bevel Edge
Noble Obelisk
Guardian Retrieval Congo (formerly Zaire)
Silver Wake
Guardian Assistance
Assurance / Phoenix Tusk
Quick Response
Assured Response
Zorro II Mexico
Safe Border Peru / Ecuador
United Shield Somalia
Uphold/Restore Democracy
Quiet Resolve / Support Hope
Safe Haven / Safe Passage
Sea Signal / JTF-160
Distant Runner Rwanda NEO
Liberian NEO 22
Provide Relief
Restore Hope
Continue Hope
Provide Transition
Garden Plot
Silver Anvil Sierra Leone NEO 2
GTMO
Safe Harbor
Quick Lift Zaire
Victor Squared Haiti NEO
Fiery Vigil Philippines NEO
Productive Effort / Sea Angel Bangladesh
Eastern Exit
Desert Shield
Imminent Thunder
Proven Force
DESERT STORM
DESERT SWORD / DESERT SABRE
Desert Calm
Desert Farewell
Steel Box / Golden Python
Sharp Edge
Elf One
Arid Farmer
Early Call
Urgent Fury
Bright Star
Classic Resolve
Hawkeye
Nimrod Dancer
JUST CAUSE
Promote Liberty Panama
ERNEST WILL
PRAYING MANTIS
Blast Furnace
EL DORADO CANYON
Attain Document
Achille Lauro
Intense Look
new horizons
korea
shining express
full accounting
balikatan
smiles
balanced piston
Able Vigil

there about 50 missing to include LATAM and counter drug. Wow that would be a ****LOAD of soldiers considering that the OJG/OJE alone would see an excess of 40k troops deplyed at a single time directly involved in the operations, not to include assets that were staged on foreign soils/waters to support the operations.

There is a reason why you have 2 ears, 2 eyes and only 1 mouth - it so you will talk less and learn more.

Keep up the attitude and insults; lets see where they get you - perhaps you should have used those 2 ears and 2 eyes before you go popping off with the suck hole.

[California Joe]

Tell him to shut his cockholster next Stoli. ;)

You all should listen to Tane and XASA, and shrek, and stoli, and Beo and Argyll and Royal....etc. and all the other ones that get shot at.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Bravo ibstolidude woot woot

Secret Squirrel just got schooled.

[Secret Squirrel]

^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas?
Like in Kuwait? or the 40+ k in the balkans or korea or germany or italy or...hey wait a minute!

Hrm...could have sworn i said operating...since the first gulf war when the U.S military was significantly reduced....and occupation....wouldnt that involve military ops... rofl There's been fighting in Germany in the last 10 years? rofl You consider 10,000 U.S troops in the balkans in Oct. 2001 a large occupation?
it is okay to be pendantic when you are right - however that is seldom the case with you.

Having worked for NATO as an SSO for various operations to include some commented on, please tell me how many US troops were used in the balkans again??? Also hotshot while you are at it, have we forgotten about operations in the Balkans since early 1990's culiminating in major named operations for the US in 1995 with their crossing of the Sava.

Not to mention named Operations in Somalia, Haiti, Grenada, Panama, GW1, Egypt, Korea, hell I can list over 75 named operations with 1 year + durations.
hell, US military operations since 1983 pre 9/11:
Joint Guardian
Allied Force / Noble Anvil
Determined Force
Cobalt Flash
Shining Hope
Sustain Hope / Allied Harbour
Provide Refuge
Open Arms
Eagle Eye
Determined Falcon
Determined Effort
Joint Endeavor
Joint Guard
Joint Forge Bosnia-Herzegovina Jul 1995
DELIBERATE FORCE
Quick Lift
Nomad Vigil
Nomad Endeavor
Able Sentry
Deny Flight
Decisive Endeavor / Decisive Edge
Decisive Guard / Deliberate Guard
Deliberate Forge
Sky Monitor
Maritime Monitor
Maritime Guard
Sharp Guard
Decisive Enhancement
Determined Guard Adriatic Sea Provide Promise
DESERT STRIKE
DESERT THUNDER
DESERT FOX
Shining Presence Israel
Phoenix Scorpion IV
Phoenix Scorpion III
Phoenix Scorpion II
Phoenix Scorpion I
Desert Focus
Vigilant Warrior
Vigilant Sentinel
Intrinsic Action
Desert Spring
Iris Gold
Pacific Haven / Quick Transit
Provide Comfort
Provide Comfort II
Northern Watch
Southern Watch
Desert Falcon
New Horizons
Sierra Leone NEO
MONUC [UN PKO]
Resolute Response
Gatekeeper
Hold-the-Line
Safeguard Texas
Arizona
Golden Pheasant
Alliance
Provide Hope I
Provide Hope II
Provide Hope III
Provide Hope IV
Provide Hope V
Coronet Nighthawk
Coronet Oak Central
Selva Verde Colombia
Badge
Ghost Dancer Oregon
Greensweep
Grizzly California
Wipeout
Ghost Zone
Constant Vigil
Support Justice
Steady State
Green Clover
Laser Strike
Agate Path
Enhanced Ops
Silent Promise
Fundamental Response
Stabilize Timor
Avid Response
Strong Support [Fuerte Apoyo]
Infinite Reach
Shepherd Venture
Asmara, Eritrea NEO
Noble Response
Bevel Edge
Noble Obelisk
Guardian Retrieval Congo (formerly Zaire)
Silver Wake
Guardian Assistance
Assurance / Phoenix Tusk
Quick Response
Assured Response
Zorro II Mexico
Safe Border Peru / Ecuador
United Shield Somalia
Uphold/Restore Democracy
Quiet Resolve / Support Hope
Safe Haven / Safe Passage
Sea Signal / JTF-160
Distant Runner Rwanda NEO
Liberian NEO 22
Provide Relief
Restore Hope
Continue Hope
Provide Transition
Garden Plot
Silver Anvil Sierra Leone NEO 2
GTMO
Safe Harbor
Quick Lift Zaire
Victor Squared Haiti NEO
Fiery Vigil Philippines NEO
Productive Effort / Sea Angel Bangladesh
Eastern Exit
Desert Shield
Imminent Thunder
Proven Force
DESERT STORM
DESERT SWORD / DESERT SABRE
Desert Calm
Desert Farewell
Steel Box / Golden Python
Sharp Edge
Elf One
Arid Farmer
Early Call
Urgent Fury
Bright Star
Classic Resolve
Hawkeye
Nimrod Dancer
JUST CAUSE
Promote Liberty Panama
ERNEST WILL
PRAYING MANTIS
Blast Furnace
EL DORADO CANYON
Attain Document
Achille Lauro
Intense Look
new horizons
korea
shining express
full accounting
balikatan
smiles
balanced piston
Able Vigil

there about 50 missing to include LATAM and counter drug. Wow that would be a ****LOAD of soldiers considering that the OJG/OJE alone would see an excess of 40k troops deplyed at a single time directly involved in the operations, not to include assets that were staged on foreign soils/waters to support the operations.

There is a reason why you have 2 ears, 2 eyes and only 1 mouth - it so you will talk less and learn more.

Keep up the attitude and insults; lets see where they get you - perhaps you should have used those 2 ears and 2 eyes before you go popping off with the suck hole.

attitude and insults...hrm...i pointed out your attempt at a clever post in another thread and you start the insults; amusing. But lets see...since 1983...i assume that you read the thread from the inital post? Saw people blaming Clinton for reducing the military? So lets see, the military is now 1/3 of its former size since the first Gulf War, if Clinton (obviously you know the dates his served as president?) reduced the military, where were the doomday people? Did anyone shout and scream that the military was too small? Did anyone envision a U.S force over 130,000 soldiers involved in an extended occupation? Were there warnings or evidence that the U.S military was overstretched before 911? Why have you listed things since 1983 when thats outside the scope of the thread? Ad why hasnt Bush increased the military?

[ibstolidude]

Why have you listed things since 1983 when thats outside the scope of the thread?


^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas? - Again you make statements and choose to adjust their meanings. Your statements is what I responded to. If you think you can make bold and baseless statements about which you have limited knowledge then you are wrong. You made a statement and the statement was false.


So lets see, the military is now 1/3 of its former size since the first Gulf War, if Clinton (obviously you know the dates his served as president?) reduced the military, where were the doomday people? Did anyone shout and scream that the military was too small? Did anyone envision a U.S force over 130,000 soldiers involved in an extended occupation? Were there warnings or evidence that the U.S military was overstretched before 911? - perhaps you knowledge level should be re-valuated. During this time the 2 war doctrine was the norm - that is the ability to maintian 2 distinct fronts in 2 seperate theaters of operation. It remained the militarys standard. Ask around the board, plenty of old timers here; they would hav heard of this. As far as your claim there were no critics of the military downsizings during the Clinton years: guffaw. A simple internet search pulls out HUGE numbers of articles and books both by insiders )("deriliction of duty") and outsiders.
http://www.cdi.org/adm/827/transcript.html
There were many many many critics both inside the military and with out; just as there were critics of the Rumsfield rapid brigades plan. The resources are very abundent, just simply look.

It's as if reality doesn't matter to you? You make comments and expect them to be accepted, despite being false . YOU POSTED the comments about pre-9/11 significant US forces overseas. Sorry. You won't catch me telling CJ how to do his job, or advising JM about technology issues; they are beyond my scope. The stuff you posted was just plain not true.

I am no more pro/anti-Clinton than I am pro/anti-Bush - they both made good and bad moves, moves they thought were best and ended to not be; but that does not make history null, nor allows me to shape it as I see fit.

If you wish to continue this conversation we can do it in PM, it will not further hijack this thread.

[Secret Squirrel]

Why have you listed things since 1983 when thats outside the scope of the thread?


^ how about Clinton

Before 911, could anyone envision a significantly large American force operating overseas? - Again you make statements and choose to adjust their meanings. Your statements is what I responded to. If you think you can make bold and baseless statements about which you have limited knowledge then you are wrong. You made a statement and the statement was false.


So lets see, the military is now 1/3 of its former size since the first Gulf War, if Clinton (obviously you know the dates his served as president?) reduced the military, where were the doomday people? Did anyone shout and scream that the military was too small? Did anyone envision a U.S force over 130,000 soldiers involved in an extended occupation? Were there warnings or evidence that the U.S military was overstretched before 911? - perhaps you knowledge level should be re-valuated. During this time the 2 war doctrine was the norm - that is the ability to maintian 2 distinct fronts in 2 seperate theaters of operation. It remained the militarys standard. Ask around the board, plenty of old timers here; they would hav heard of this. As far as your claim there were no critics of the military downsizings during the Clinton years: guffaw. A simple internet search pulls out HUGE numbers of articles and books both by insiders )("deriliction of duty") and outsiders.
http://www.cdi.org/adm/827/transcript.html
There were many many many critics both inside the military and with out; just as there were critics of the Rumsfield rapid brigades plan. The resources are very abundent, just simply look.

It's as if reality doesn't matter to you? You make comments and expect them to be accepted, despite being false . YOU POSTED the comments about pre-9/11 significant US forces overseas. Sorry. You won't catch me telling CJ how to do his job, or advising JM about technology issues; they are beyond my scope. The stuff you posted was just plain not true.

I am no more pro/anti-Clinton than I am pro/anti-Bush - they both made good and bad moves, moves they thought were best and ended to not be; but that does not make history null, nor allows me to shape it as I see fit.

If you wish to continue this conversation we can do it in PM, it will not further hijack this thread.

If you go back and look, my comment was made while quoting someone who said the reduction in military numbers was due to Clinton. I thought it would have been clear to others what time period i was refering to; i'll try to keep things more clarified in the future. Was there a point before 911 where the U.S military was overstretched either during Clinton's or Bush's terms?

But, what has Bush done to significantly increase the military's numbers? He had 3 years, give or take, to try and make up, for what some people say were Clinton's mistakes. The pre-war planning called for what...30,000 troops to occupy Iraq? Even before this war, there were some who didnt envision the number of troops that are currently deployed in Iraq. Even after the fall of Saddam, 20,000 soldiers (certainly not a small force) had their TOD extended when there was 450,000 (? not sure on the exact number) in Iraq for the invasion and many had left ( i realize that the 450,000 (if that stat is correct) encompasses all brances..etc). Apparently, even during the second Gulf War, an occupation of the current scale wasnt envisioned by the planners.

edit: yep should have clarified my initial statement. :cantbeli:

[budanski]

Talk about mismanagements...
Leftist Activists Mismanages Plan To Commit Voter Fraud (My Title)

Leftists Busted in Voter Registration Fraud
NewsMax (http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/3/161523.shtml)

Gee, the presidential election is still half a year away and Democrat groups are already cranking up their vote fraud. A left-wing organization has fired two employees caught cheating in a voter registration drive in Columbus, Ohio.

After election authorities received fraudulent and duplicate forms, Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (nuttily appropriate acronym: ACORN) agreed today to check its paperwork.

"This just makes it harder for everybody," sighed activist Katy Gall.

Secret Squirrel Version:

Two Ohio voter-registration workers fired over fake forms; drive run by activist group ACORN
SFGate.com (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/06/03/national1457EDT0684.DTL)

Two workers with a community activist group's voter-registration campaign were fired after authorities determined they submitted fraudulent forms to election officials.

The workers were collecting voter registrations for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, when they turned in the forms, which were duplicates or contained false information.

The group agreed Wednesday to perform extra checks on its paperwork. "This just makes it harder for everybody," organizer Katy Gall said. "We definitely are glad we were able to catch it at this stage."

Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, blamed a bonus paid to workers based on the number of new registrations they collected.

"It's not the organization per se that's problematic -- it's the individuals," he said. "I don't believe there's anyone out there masterminding a program to throw an election."

ACORN workers are paid $6.25 an hour and have registered 23,000 new voters in the county since last fall.

I always knew the Democrats raised more dead people than Jesus Christ. ;)

[Secret Squirrel]

Talk about mismanagements...
Leftist Activists Mismanages Plan To Commit Voter Fraud (My Title)

Leftists Busted in Voter Registration Fraud
NewsMax (http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/3/161523.shtml)

Gee, the presidential election is still half a year away and Democrat groups are already cranking up their vote fraud. A left-wing organization has fired two employees caught cheating in a voter registration drive in Columbus, Ohio.

After election authorities received fraudulent and duplicate forms, Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (nuttily appropriate acronym: ACORN) agreed today to check its paperwork.

"This just makes it harder for everybody," sighed activist Katy Gall.

Secret Squirrel Version:

Two Ohio voter-registration workers fired over fake forms; drive run by activist group ACORN
SFGate.com (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/06/03/national1457EDT0684.DTL)

Two workers with a community activist group's voter-registration campaign were fired after authorities determined they submitted fraudulent forms to election officials.

The workers were collecting voter registrations for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, when they turned in the forms, which were duplicates or contained false information.

The group agreed Wednesday to perform extra checks on its paperwork. "This just makes it harder for everybody," organizer Katy Gall said. "We definitely are glad we were able to catch it at this stage."

Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, blamed a bonus paid to workers based on the number of new registrations they collected.

"It's not the organization per se that's problematic -- it's the individuals," he said. "I don't believe there's anyone out there masterminding a program to throw an election."

ACORN workers are paid $6.25 an hour and have registered 23,000 new voters in the county since last fall.

I always knew the Democrats raised more dead people than Jesus Christ. ;)

rofl still reading newsmax? Regardless, if its true its stupid. Everyone knows the way for Kerry to win this election is to have Nader either arrested or shipped to Iraq. woot Of course for dead people to vote wouldnt they have to actually go vote? I dont think anyone could pull a "Weekend at Bernies".

[American Patriot]

Clinton should have overthrown Saddam when the dictator threw out UN inspectors and continued to develop WMD. It would have been the only good decision of his presidency.

[Secret Squirrel]

Clinton should have overthrown Saddam when the dictator threw out UN inspectors and continued to develop WMD. It would have been the only good decision of his presidency.

You mean when the weapons inspectors left in 1998(?) because they were more or less told to do so by the U.S?

[American Patriot]

On August 8th, 1998 when he accused them of being American spies.

[Secret Squirrel]

On August 8th, 1998 when he accused them of being American spies.

But they werent kicked out by Saddam. The inspectors were withdrawn by the UN on the advice of the US prior to the 1998 Desert Fox bombing campaign.

“A few hours before the attack began, 125 UN personnel were hurriedly evacuated from Baghdad to Bahrain, including inspectors from the UN Special Commission on Iraq and the International Atomic Energy Agency.”

Source: ‘Missile Blitz on Iraq’, Julian Borger and Ian MacAskill – 17/12/1998

As someone else pointed out, war isnt a game. It's not as simple as "yea! go in and kick their ass! HAHA Iraq was defeated in a few weeks! that'll teach them!" and then go home.

[BlackRain]

Kerry says Bush has mismanaged U.S. military

Kerry would say his own mother is a whore if he thought it would get him elected.

You must parse his offical ****ouncements through a filter because it is an election year.

[Merik]

To Tane and XASA: You would be really surprised at how many teenagers and young adults know that war is a serious matter and not a game.


To Secret Squirrel: The reason Bush hasnt increased the military is because he cant numnuts. You can get rid of people but you cant make them come to you for a job. All the members of the military are all volunteers so unless we institute a draft, Bush cannot significatly increase the military. So there's your answer.

[Secret Squirrel]

To Tane and XASA: You would be really surprised at how many teenagers and young adults know that war is a serious matter and not a game.


To Secret Squirrel: The reason Bush hasnt increased the military is because he cant numnuts. You can get rid of people but you cant make them come to you for a job. All the members of the military are all volunteers so unless we institute a draft, Bush cannot significatly increase the military. So there's your answer.

You mean you cant attract more people by making a military career more appealing "numnuts"? Or feed off the hatred produced by 911? ...etc. I'm sure you realize that the military markets itself like any company/whatever. And I'm sure you know that no career is forced on anyone, its all volunteer-based chosen by people for various reasons.

[Merik]

What do you want them to do, start advertising hand me outs? Look the military isnt for everyone, you have a lot of people that do try and get it but they either physically or mentally can not make it through MEPS or even BCT. So what do you want them to do SS? Start lowering the bar to get more people that really are not capable of the military to become qualified? Please I'd really like to know what you expect Bush and the military to do in order to increase our forces like it was post- Clinton.

[Secret Squirrel]

What do you want them to do, start advertising hand me outs? Look the military isnt for everyone, you have a lot of people that do try and get it but they either physically or mentally can not make it through MEPS or even BCT. So what do you want them to do SS? Start lowering the bar to get more people that really are not capable of the military to become qualified? Please I'd really like to know what you expect Bush and the military to do in order to increase our forces like it was post- Clinton.

Post-Clinton? Or did you mean pre-Clinton? Honestly, I dont expect Bush to increase the army and, as other members have suggested, fix Clinton's mistake. Bush pushed through with his plans for the Iraq war inspite of not having a broad coalition behind him. He knew he was going to go into Baghdad and not stop until he got Saddam, so he also knew it would mean a long occupation. But, and I know perhaps a lot of people will argue against this, Bush has further pushed the privatization of war with private firms. I'm not saying I disagree with using private firms as it seems perfectly logical given the situation. Also, moving troops from South Korea, in my opinion, is a good move. Are 37,000 troops really needed there? Or could some of them be moved to Iraq to replace some of those troops (if this is possible, ie. if the right troops can be moved to Iraq). As for specifics on trying to increase the size of the army, it would cost money...probably a lot of money. You said that not everyone gets in because of the bar-level, which means you want a certain high standard of person to enter the army. Well, whats the average salary of the standard army soldier? Do you really think its high enough to draw a large amount of the people that the army wants?

[catdat]

I just want to point out that only 16 of the regular Army's 31 active combat brigades are deployed worldwide. Of the two ACR's, both are currently deployed.

In the Army National Guard only 6 of 37 combat brigades are deployed.

[Merik]

I just want to point out that only 16 of the regular Army's 31 active combat brigades are deployed worldwide. Of the two ACR's, both are currently deployed.

In the Army National Guard only 6 of 37 combat brigades are deployed.


There is 3 ACR's bubba. The third is on its way to Iraq in 5 months.

[Stl. boy]

I just want to point out that only 16 of the regular Army's 31 active combat brigades are deployed worldwide. Of the two ACR's, both are currently deployed.

In the Army National Guard only 6 of 37 combat brigades are deployed.


Right, half to be deployed, half resting to replace them. You cant just think about the number deployed as being half and think there are plenty of troops. Those people need to be replaced for a period of time at some point. We were talking about this at work yesterday and being the only one there of drafting age, they did ask me what i would do. I told them i would volunteer in a heartbeat (would see if i could finish school first). This response was met with: oh no, why would you want to do that, you shouldnt do that...you should just try the objector thing or go to jail instead. That pissed me off enough to tell the boss i was sick and went home early. But, most of the people i work with are female and those responses were mostly from them. They probably dont understant the pride that must come with knowing that you are fighting for your country's honor and i guess i kinda wish i could feel that pride. I havent written it anywhere else so i guess it could go here...Thank you to all the troops out there, no matter what country you are from...unless you are an iraqi insurgent (y'all need to go home before you get hurt).

BTW...Catdat, the beginning of my post wasnt a call out, sorry if it came across that way. :hug:

[A Soldier]

I think Kerry is mis-managing his thoughts again, this is starting to get old

[WolverineBlue]

Hate to break the news to you Clinton bashers, but the down-sizing of the military started when Bush was in office, if not earlier. Once we had the USSR on the ropes, it was the only fiscally responsible thing to do.

[BlackRain]

You mean when the weapons inspectors left in 1998(?) because they were more or less told to do so by the U.S?

You sir! Are an idiot. Read and do a little research before exposing your ignorance to the rest of the world!


The Iraq story boiled over last night when the chief U.N. weapons inspector, Richard Butler, said that Iraq had not fully cooperated with inspectors and--as they had promised to do. As a result, the U.N. ordered its inspectors to leave Iraq this morning

--Katie Couric, NBC's Today, 12/16/98/


The chief U.N. weapons inspector ordered his monitors to leave Baghdad today after saying that Iraq had once again reneged on its promise to cooperate--a report that renewed the threat of U.S. and British airstrikes.

--AP, 12/16/98

[BlackRain]

Honestly, I dont expect Bush to increase the army and, as other members have suggested, fix Clinton's mistake.

Correction. The US Army is on track to create as many as 15 additional active-duty combat brigades, which will allow it to maintain the current pace of operations in Iraq and elsewhere indefinitely. The first of those new brigades was created this month in the 3rd Infantry Division, which is preparing for a second tour of duty in Iraq starting late this year.



Do you really think its high enough to draw a large amount of the people that the army wants?

Despite a rising tide of combat deaths and the prospect of deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan for years to come, Americans continue to volunteer for duty and are re-enlisting at record rates.

The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard all met or exceeded their year-end recruiting goals for fiscal year 2003, which ended Sept. 30. The figures continued to climb in the first half of fiscal year 2004, which was reached March 31.

Source: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_numbers_041404,00.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl


Why do we have to keep correcting your biased, inaccurate, inane statements with cold hard facts?

[Tane Angle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was actually Secretary Rumsfeld who specified that those brigades are a restructuring of the AD Army, not a growth, no?

[Secret Squirrel]

You mean when the weapons inspectors left in 1998(?) because they were more or less told to do so by the U.S?

You sir! Are an idiot. Read and do a little research before exposing your ignorance to the rest of the world!


The Iraq story boiled over last night when the chief U.N. weapons inspector, Richard Butler, said that Iraq had not fully cooperated with inspectors and--as they had promised to do. As a result, the U.N. ordered its inspectors to leave Iraq this morning

--Katie Couric, NBC's Today, 12/16/98/


The chief U.N. weapons inspector ordered his monitors to leave Baghdad today after saying that Iraq had once again reneged on its promise to cooperate--a report that renewed the threat of U.S. and British airstrikes.

--AP, 12/16/98





instead of depending on news report "idiot", maybe you should read the reports by the U.N. and the primary documents available surrounding this subject.

[Pooga]

Yes, because the UN is legitimate…

Um.

[mattnwnc03]

Where the f*$@ is he going to find 40,000 more troops? thats been a costly mistake.especially for a all volunteer army.alot of good men and women were forced out of service for small crap ,now were slapping ourselves for it

[BlackRain]

You mean when the weapons inspectors left in 1998(?) because they were more or less told to do so by the U.S?

You sir! Are an idiot. Read and do a little research before exposing your ignorance to the rest of the world!


The Iraq story boiled over last night when the chief U.N. weapons inspector, Richard Butler, said that Iraq had not fully cooperated with inspectors and--as they had promised to do. As a result, the U.N. ordered its inspectors to leave Iraq this morning

--Katie Couric, NBC's Today, 12/16/98/


The chief U.N. weapons inspector ordered his monitors to leave Baghdad today after saying that Iraq had once again reneged on its promise to cooperate--a report that renewed the threat of U.S. and British airstrikes.

--AP, 12/16/98





instead of depending on news report "idiot", maybe you should read the reports by the U.N. and the primary documents available surrounding this subject.

Because you are ignorant and can't read; I guess I must spoon feed you facts now. The UN ordered inspectors out of Iraq not the USA. Read for yourself from the official United Nations Press Release... moron...


IAEA INSPECTORS LEAVING IRAQ
19981111
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIENNA, 11 November (IAEA) -- Upon consultation with the Secretary- General of the United Nations, the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Mohamed ElBaradei, has decided to temporarily relocate all IAEA inspectors currently in Baghdad to Bahrain due to concern for their safety in view of the escalating situation in Iraq.
This decision has been taken in parallel with that of the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), which is also withdrawing its personnel and on whose logistic support the IAEA inspectors are dependent.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/1998/19981111.iaea1328.html

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/1998/19981218.sgsm6845.html

[Secret Squirrel]

You mean when the weapons inspectors left in 1998(?) because they were more or less told to do so by the U.S?

You sir! Are an idiot. Read and do a little research before exposing your ignorance to the rest of the world!


The Iraq story boiled over last night when the chief U.N. weapons inspector, Richard Butler, said that Iraq had not fully cooperated with inspectors and--as they had promised to do. As a result, the U.N. ordered its inspectors to leave Iraq this morning

--Katie Couric, NBC's Today, 12/16/98/


The chief U.N. weapons inspector ordered his monitors to leave Baghdad today after saying that Iraq had once again reneged on its promise to cooperate--a report that renewed the threat of U.S. and British airstrikes.

--AP, 12/16/98





instead of depending on news report "idiot", maybe you should read the reports by the U.N. and the primary documents available surrounding this subject.

Because you are ignorant and can't read; I guess I must spoon feed you facts now. The UN ordered inspectors out of Iraq not the USA. Read for yourself from the official United Nations Press Release... moron...


IAEA INSPECTORS LEAVING IRAQ
19981111
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIENNA, 11 November (IAEA) -- Upon consultation with the Secretary- General of the United Nations, the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Mohamed ElBaradei, has decided to temporarily relocate all IAEA inspectors currently in Baghdad to Bahrain due to concern for their safety in view of the escalating situation in Iraq.
This decision has been taken in parallel with that of the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), which is also withdrawing its personnel and on whose logistic support the IAEA inspectors are dependent.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/1998/19981111.iaea1328.html

So it was just a coincidence they happen to leave a few hours before the bombing? rofl I hope you cant be stupid enough to think that the weapons inspectors would remain there while there was a 70hr bombing campaign...or can you be that stupid? woot

[Pooga]

I can be stupid! Wanna see?

[Secret Squirrel]

I can be stupid! Wanna see?

too late.

[crazyman]

my .02 cents on the topic...i dont really think bush missmanaged the army, just a matter of times changing. when we re-structured the army awhile back, we built it to handle 2 Major Regional Conflicts (MRC's) the idea was to be able to fight in two places, and still be able to keep up our usual presence in korea, germany, etc. This is exactly what we're doing right now, but we're also tied up somewhat in east europe, haiti, and some other places. Personally, i think it's time we re-structured again, with an emphasis on being able to handle multiple peacekeeping AND MRC's at the same time. in a way we've already started, with this whole BCT concept

[Pooga]

I can be stupid! Wanna see?

too late.

Secret Squirrel takes the offensive! :|

http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/villa2.jpg

You are funny man, señor!