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Ordie
07-09-2008, 01:35 PM
Taiwan declares peace on China

Robert Scheer, Creators Syndicate, Inc.
Wednesday, July 9, 2008
You can't trust the Chinese. I don't care if you're talking about those communists on the mainland or the other guys on Taiwan; they just won't follow the war-games script that our weapons hawks had counted on. Their mutual passion runs not to matters of tired politics but rather on the lust of venture capitalists. To the Chinese, irrespective of past allegiances, the prospect of war has come to be viewed as counterproductive, and they now have the confidence to show it.
No longer pretending to be enemies, where they engaged in angry rhetoric while doing much business together on the side, a public love affair has broken out across the Straits of Formosa. On Friday, scheduled direct flights began between the mainland and its breakaway island for the first time in 60 years, and the invasion of tourists clicking their cameras was on.
Not that it was much noticed by the media or presidential candidates, but this long chapter of Cold War conflict has been closed and a new era of peace proclaimed by once strident foes. Taiwanese businessmen already are major investors in the mainland, and the new Taiwan government has recognized that reality by quickly pushing for full normalization of trade and other accommodations.
For years now, the Chinese on both sides of the strait have been acting as if they are members of one nation, with the descendants of those who fled the mainland with Chiang Kai-shek building mansions in their old villages and increasingly preferring that their offspring study in China rather than at American schools. Thus it was not surprising when the leader of the old nationalist Kuomintang Party, which won the recent Taiwan election, quickly went to the mainland to pledge the dawn of a new era. Gone is the prime excuse for a major U.S. military presence in the Pacific, now that the Taiwanese have made their separate peace. What good are our fancy military weapons to people preoccupied with a consumer revolution? The concern over mainland missiles landing on Taiwan has been replaced with a fear that some country cousins from the mainland might be given to spitting on the sidewalks. Those fears were assuaged when over the weekend tourists from both sides conducted themselves with proper comportment while shopping 'til they dropped.
That peace has broken out is a nightmare scenario for America's military hawks in desperate need of an excuse for soaking up more than half of the U.S. government's discretionary budget. There was real panic when Mikhail Gorbachev formally ended the Cold War and George H.W. Bush announced a 30 percent cut in military spending in 1992. Then came the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the wildest peacetime spending spree in history. No one in power noticed that the expensive weapons were designed to defeat an enemy that no longer existed. That's because we were traumatized by something called terrorism, and few questioned the decision to build weapons such as the two new Virginia Class submarines, at a cost of $5 billion, to catch Osama bin Laden, holed up in a cave in a landlocked nation. But submarines obviously have nothing to do with fighting terrorists, forcing Sen. Joe Lieberman, an independent who represents Connecticut, where the subs are built, to play the China card: "If we do not move to produce two submarines a year as soon as possible, we are in serious danger of falling behind China," Lieberman insisted.
Fomenting fear of China is essential to making the case for the whole range of high-tech war toys that no longer have a legitimate military purpose. But it's a sick joke. We are paying the Chinese the interest on the money we borrow from them to build very expensive weapons to counter weapons the Chinese have no intention of building. The latest word from the Pentagon is that "The intelligence community estimates China will take until the end of this decade or later to produce a modern force capable of defeating a moderate-size adversary."
The only adversary that interested China, according to the Pentagon report, was Taiwan, and as recent events have indicated, that game is over. But don't shed tears just yet for the denizens of the military-industrial complex. Why should they doubt our continued willingness to throw money at weapons that have no targets, when few in Congress or the media ever bother to notice?
It took Mikhail Gorbachev, in scathing criticism of President Bush and presidential candidates John McCain and Barack Obama, to note on Tuesday that in the United States, "The subject of military spending has literally been shrouded in the curtain of silence. This taboo must be lifted."

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/09/EDBH11M1I3.DTL&type=printable

Alpheus
07-09-2008, 09:40 PM
That peace has broken out is a nightmare scenario for America's military hawks in desperate need of an excuse for soaking up more than half of the U.S. government's discretionary budget. There was real panic when Mikhail Gorbachev formally ended the Cold War and George H.W. Bush announced a 30 percent cut in military spending in 1992. Then came the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the wildest peacetime spending spree in history. No one in power noticed that the expensive weapons were designed to defeat an enemy that no longer existed. That's because we were traumatized by something called terrorism, and few questioned the decision to build weapons such as the two new Virginia Class submarines, at a cost of $5 billion, to catch Osama bin Laden, holed up in a cave in a landlocked nation. But submarines obviously have nothing to do with fighting terrorists, forcing Sen. Joe Lieberman, an independent who represents Connecticut, where the subs are built, to play the China card: "If we do not move to produce two submarines a year as soon as possible, we are in serious danger of falling behind China," Lieberman insisted.

Ahhh, my daily dose of leftist dribble.

Horsewithnoname
07-09-2008, 10:00 PM
Taiwan wanting peace???lol I would too when a country with 1.6 billion or something close wanted to kill me...

ramthor
07-09-2008, 10:05 PM
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http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5517/chin1qk0.jpg


A restaurant puts up signs reading "refusing Chinese communist bandits" in Kaohsiung, as hundreds of mainland tourists arrive in Taiwan. Taiwan and China launched regular direct flights for the weekends starting July 4, ushering in what Beijing called a "new start" in their tense and testy relations. G**** Images

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1352/chin2ga2.jpg


An Taiwanese veteran dressed in military uniform waves a Chinese national flag to welcome Chinese tourists as a Chinese tourist bus (unseen) drives by in Taipei. The resumption of regular air services between mainland China and Taiwan on marked a "new start" in relations between the long-time rivals, Beijing's top official on Taiwan said. G**** Images

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5766/chin3qg4.jpg


A Taiwanese bank employee displays Chinese banknotes in Taipei. Taiwan opened the exchange of Chinese yuan - the first time in more than five decades.G**** Images
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Rakki
07-09-2008, 10:08 PM
Taiwan wanting peace???lol I would too when a country with 1.6 billion or something close wanted to kill me...

Taiwan wants peace, China wants Anschluss. There's still 1000 plus missiles point in Taiwan's direction and the Chinese diplomatic offensive against Taiwan is running at full speed as usual. The only difference is that the Taiwan's current President thinks he can save the economy by opening Taiwan up to Chinese tourists.... (with lifting of trade and investment restrictions to follow, presumably)

flyforest
07-10-2008, 10:49 AM
Taiwan wants peace, China wants Anschluss. There's still 1000 plus missiles point in Taiwan's direction and the Chinese diplomatic offensive against Taiwan is running at full speed as usual. The only difference is that the Taiwan's current President thinks he can save the economy by opening Taiwan up to Chinese tourists.... (with lifting of trade and investment restrictions to follow, presumably)
The mainland people never want to kill the taiwan people, we are at the same family. I donn't care which government take charge of the country. The people will always being the Chinese people .

Hippo
07-10-2008, 04:52 PM
The mainland people never want to kill the taiwan people, we are at the same family

yet you guys are perfectly content to use force to retake the island and have a ridiculous amount of nuclear weaponry pointed at taiwan, amirite?


I donn't care which government take charge of the country.

What other government do you chinese fanboys even have? Besides of course the totalitarian chinese communist party


The people will always being the Chinese people .

You can stay chinese and ill stay taiwanese


F*cking chinese fanboys

matthew.manhorn
07-10-2008, 05:09 PM
Hi Hippo I hate Chinese too, may I ask you which country are you from?

flyforest
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
yet you guys are perfectly content to use force to retake the island and have a ridiculous amount of nuclear weaponry pointed at taiwan, amirite?



What other government do you chinese fanboys even have? Besides of course the totalitarian chinese communist party



You can stay chinese and ill stay taiwanese


F*cking chinese fanboys
WELL, GUY. If you hate the chinese. It is your business. I don't care what your opinion.
But do you know how to respect a people or a country. I should never F*** others.
Then the last thing I will tell you is that the chinese business should be stolen only by the Chinese. If you want to give advise, you are welcome . But don't always act as the god just order others. Showing your intelligence? I am so sorry just I just find clownery from you.

Shadowstorm
07-10-2008, 11:05 PM
What peace! I kind find it hard their's peace between these two countries if China has over thousand missiles aim at Taiwan which can be launch at them anywhere, anyplace and anytime. Wow, some damn peace they called it.

Ordie
07-11-2008, 01:28 AM
What peace! I kind find it hard their's peace between these two countries if China has over thousand missiles aim at Taiwan which can be launch at them anywhere, anyplace and anytime. Wow, some damn peace they called it.

If memory serves me well, the United States also had a 1000+ missiles aimed at them during the Cold War. In response the US also aimed 1000+ missiles aimed at the Soviet Union. The Mutally Assured Destruction (MAD) concept was to deter a 1st strike. The ROC and PRC are doing the same.

In regards to Taiwanese vs. Mainland Chinese attitudes. I am willing to bet that the majority of ROC residents are pragmatic about the detante between the ROC/PRC. Many ROC people that I talked with wants the island to be left alone and not used as a pawn.

The 2/28 Day incident is akin to Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989. It was a watershed moment of the island history. That being said, the KMT land reform policies had a huge impact in creating economic opportunities for the Taiwanese. Because of this economic power, the Taiwanese was able to influence the ruling KMT to create political reforms including multi-party free elections. The political reforms co-incided with the rapid economic growth.

The ROC on Taiwan is a prime example for the PRC on how a Chinese single party totalitarian state was able to transfrom itself into a dyanmic modern democracy.

Rakki
07-11-2008, 08:06 PM
If memory serves me well, the United States also had a 1000+ missiles aimed at them during the Cold War. In response the US also aimed 1000+ missiles aimed at the Soviet Union. The Mutally Assured Destruction (MAD) concept was to deter a 1st strike. The ROC and PRC are doing the same.

In regards to Taiwanese vs. Mainland Chinese attitudes. I am willing to bet that the majority of ROC residents are pragmatic about the detante between the ROC/PRC. Many ROC people that I talked with wants the island to be left alone and not used as a pawn.

The 2/28 Day incident is akin to Tienanmen Square massacre of 1989. It was a watershed moment of the island history. That being said, the KMT land reform policies had a huge impact in creating economic opportunities for the Taiwanese. Because of this economic power, the Taiwanese was able to influence the ruling KMT to create political reforms including multi-party free elections. The political reforms co-incided with the rapid economic growth.

The ROC on Taiwan is a prime example for the PRC on how a Chinese single party totalitarian state was able to transfrom itself into a dyanmic modern democracy.

There is no MAD policy in Taiwan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million and no nuclear weapons, China has 1.2 billion and god knows how many nuclear weapons.

The 228 Incident in Taiwan is indeed like Tiannamen Square. It killed off most of the island's Japanese-educated elite and gave the KMT a one-party state for the next 50 years, with martial law too boot. Claiming that this allowed the KMT to create ruling reforms and led to multi-party elections FORTY YEARS LATER is like saying the enslavement of black Africans in the USA led to the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King and desegregation.

Ordie
07-12-2008, 12:52 AM
There is no MAD policy in Taiwan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million and no nuclear weapons, China has 1.2 billion and god knows how many nuclear weapons.

The 228 Incident in Taiwan is indeed like Tiannamen Square. It killed off most of the island's Japanese-educated elite and gave the KMT a one-party state for the next 50 years, with martial law too boot. Claiming that this allowed the KMT to create ruling reforms and led to multi-party elections FORTY YEARS LATER is like saying the enslavement of black Africans in the USA led to the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King and desegregation.

Both very good points.

The "MAD" policy in this case is mutually assured deterance. Since we have a third party in the US 7th Fleet.

Many do not know that both the CCP and KMT had similar Lenninist roots in terms of using a "Single-Party Dictatorship" governance model. Chiang Kai Shek son Chiang Ching Kuo (who later became leader of the KMT) spent his formative years in the Soviet Union and was a classmate of Deng Xiao Peng in Moscow. Ironically both were considered as change agents.

rodin_hsu
07-12-2008, 02:44 AM
There is no MAD policy in Taiwan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million and no nuclear weapons, China has 1.2 billion and god knows how many nuclear weapons.

That is true. There is no MAD between Taiwan (ROC) and Mainland China (PRC). PRC can definitely nuke Taiwan killing most of the people on the island if they want, and US 7th fleet can actually do nothing about it. The problem is that they will face serious political and historical repercussion for the following decades or centuries.


The 228 Incident in Taiwan is indeed like Tiannamen Square. It killed off most of the island's Japanese-educated elite and gave the KMT a one-party state for the next 50 years, with martial law too boot. Claiming that this allowed the KMT to create ruling reforms and led to multi-party elections FORTY YEARS LATER is like saying the enslavement of black Africans in the USA led to the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King and desegregation.The 228 Incident is disputably been compared to Tiananmen Massacre in Taiwan. This is basically a political issue; different ideological supporters may have totally controversial viewpoints. The disagreement on this issue is that the Chinese students in Tiananmen Square were peacfully protesting for democracy; however, Taiwanese mob at that time killed many civilian mainlanders and were attacking KMT's fortress. KMT troops also killed thousands of Taiwanese in return.

To me, the 228 Incident is more like the US troop killing Vietnamese villagers in Vietnam War.

rodin_hsu
07-12-2008, 03:07 AM
Many do not know that both the CCP and KMT had similar Lenninist roots in terms of using a "Single-Party Dictatorship" governance model. Chiang Kai Shek son Chiang Ching Kuo (who later became leader of the KMT) spent his formative years in the Soviet Union and was a classmate of Deng Xiao Peng in Moscow. Ironically both were considered as change agents.

Yeah, this is true. I am surprise that you know about Taiwan in that depth.

IMO, Taiwan's democracy evolution is about "time" and "pressure", with a little bit luck. US definitely plays some role in this procedure. US government had been constantly kept the pressure on KMT toward an more open and democratic direction without crushing this dictatorship. That has been proved work (I hope it works for PRC too). And it somehow justifies the role that US has being played in the world. "Patient" is very important. I hope the US administrator and people nowaday can be more patient on world affair.

Rakki
07-12-2008, 05:31 AM
That is true. There is no MAD between Taiwan (ROC) and Mainland China (PRC). PRC can definitely nuke Taiwan killing most of the people on the island if they want, and US 7th fleet can actually do nothing about it. The problem is that they will face serious political and historical repercussion for the following decades or centuries.

Well, that's got to be some kind of consolation.



The 228 Incident is disputably been compared to Tiananmen Massacre in Taiwan. This is basically a political issue; different ideological supporters may have totally controversial viewpoints. The disagreement on this issue is that the Chinese students in Tiananmen Square were peacfully protesting for democracy; however, Taiwanese mob at that time killed many civilian mainlanders and were attacking KMT's fortress. KMT troops also killed thousands of Taiwanese in return.

To me, the 228 Incident is more like the US troop killing Vietnamese villagers in Vietnam War.

The wiki covers the chronology of the 228 massacre in detail. What you'll find is that endemic corruption and abuses by the KMT occupation government (little more than bandits/warlords) seriously pissed off the Taiwanese, and eventually when the KMT troops started shooting civilians, outright rebellion occurred.

The 228 Incident goes far beyond My Lai. It was more like Stalin and Mao's purges - arbitrary arrest and execution of any one who they so much as suspected of being a threat. And there was no court martial afterwards either. Chiang Kai-Shek himself personally ordered executions of political prisoners and the KMT had 40 years of brainwash the Taiwanese population and build up their own version of the ZANU-PF (kleptocracy, as it were).

Unlike East/West Germany, those in charge during the "White Terror" were never brought to account and the files remain sealed/classified or have been deliberately destroyed....