Sanction resolutions on Zimbabwe does not pass, China, Russia veto+

[Fade]

Sanction resolutions on Zimbabwe does not pass, China, Russia veto+

NEW YORK, July 11 (AP) - (Kyodo)—Russia and China exercised their veto powers Friday, voting against a proposed draft resolution calling for sanctions to be slapped on Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe and 13 other officials.

Joining the two permanent members in casting negative votes were South Africa, Libya and Vietnam. Indonesia abstained.

Source.... (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D91RSU803&show_article=1&catnum=0)

[Mu-Meson]

Thanks you China and Russia. Someone remind me again why the west needs to bend over backwards to get these guys onboard for sanctions against Zim, Iran, or anyone? Just more evidence of the UN's at best irrelevance, at worst hinderance.

[Alpheus]

Joining the two permanent members in casting negative votes were South Africa......

No surprise there. Mbeki is such a corrupt midget asshole.

[The Dane]

Thanks you China and Russia. Someone remind me again why the west needs to bend over backwards to get these guys onboard for sanctions against Zim, Iran, or anyone? Just more evidence of the UN's at best irrelevance, at worst hinderance.

X2
This isn't a surprise.
Unfortunely China and Russia isn't rice enough to think of the well-being of common Africans.

No flame intended, just an personal observation :roll:

[Fade]

Wasn't Zimbabwe buying Chinese munitions?

[Laworkerbee]

Wasn't Zimbabwe buying Chinese munitions?

They tried, the South Africans held up the shipment, not sure what happened later on.

[ed316]

Thanks you China and Russia. Someone remind me again why the west needs to bend over backwards to get these guys onboard for sanctions against Zim, Iran, or anyone? Just more evidence of the UN's at best irrelevance, at worst hinderance.

They got intrest just like we got intrest.

[The Dane]

Could we have Russian or Chinese points of view?
Lots of members.

[MZKT]

X2
This isn't a surprise.
Unfortunely China and Russia isn't rice enough to think of the well-being of common Africans.

:cantbeli:Sure. Especially compared to the west which permanently thinks about the well-being of common africans. Everybody in the west knows how effective are sanctions on autoritarian regimes and a travel-ban on Mugabe will immediatly turn him a democrat and his country into a wealthy industrial power. Only stupid chinese, russians and south-africans either don't see this obvious fact or are just inherently evil people which want every african dead.

[The Dane]

:cantbeli:Sure. Especially compared to the west which permanently thinks about the well-being of common africans. Everybody in the west knows how effective are sanctions on autoritarian regimes and a travel-ban on Mugabe will immediatly turn him a democrat and his country into a wealthy industrial power. Only stupid chinese, russians and south-africans either don't see this obvious fact or are just inherently evil people which want every african dead.

I'm just a detonator.
You served my purpose , thanks.

[CyberSpec]

Oh well...I guess the US and it's sidekicks won't have a UN cover for their dirty undeclared war against Mugabe. Maybe they should organise another "coalition of the willing" and give invasion a go.

Just one question....how come no one gives a s.h.i.t. about other african leaders with less then impressive records?

[Calanen]

I support Russia and China for taking a stance against the racist sanctions sought against Mugabe. It's only because he is black they don't like him. Maybe without the threat of sanctions from evil imperialist capitalist lackey dogs, he can get on with the business of running his country oh so very well.

[TeslaN]

Africa has seen enough of European(by and large Western) colonial rule. Good thing that Russia & China are finally putting a stop to that.woot

Africa for Africans.

[The Dane]

Africa has seen enough of European(by and large Western) colonial rule. Good thing that Russia & China are finally putting a stop to that.woot

Africa for Africans.

Could i have some ?
The nice stuff your smoking

[The Dane]

I Hate to bring somethings to an end

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Sure. Especially compared to the west which permanently thinks about the well-being of common africans. Everybody in the west knows how effective are sanctions on autoritarian regimes and a travel-ban on Mugabe will immediatly turn him a democrat and his country into a wealthy industrial power.
If it's at best an attempt to isolate Mugabe and at worst irrelevant, why vote against it?


Only stupid chinese, russians and south-africans either don't see this obvious fact or are just inherently evil people which want every african dead.
How about we say the governments of the aforementioned countries don't necessarily want Africans dead, they just don't care very much if they live.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Africa has seen enough of European(by and large Western) colonial rule. Good thing that Russia & China are finally putting a stop to that.woot Africa for Africans.

Yeah, I'm sure voting against an arms embargo and travel ban is a matter of important priciple :roll:

[Bushranger]

This is bullsh*t Russi & china suck, What is the chance of there ever being an armed uprising against Mugabe... bucklees probably but just wondering.

Just shows the UN is a joke.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

How about a little more consideration given to boycotting the Olympics.

Maybe we should also think about donating a few retired Peacekeeper ICBMs to Taiwan.
If anybody could use an asymmetrical weapon, its Taiwan.

[0rphie]

How about a little more consideration given to boycotting the Olympics.

Maybe we should also think about donating a few retired Peacekeeper ICBMs to Taiwan.
If anybody could use an asymmetrical weapon, its Taiwan.
Unfortunately Taiwan has no use for IBCM, unless if they want to strike us

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Unfortunately Taiwan has no use for IBCM, unless if they want to strike us

Strike us? Taiwan? I think there's a bit of confusion here.
Taiwan's on our side.

I was just proffering a laughable proposition. Something that would undoubtedly infuriate China.

[little icebear]

Africa has seen enough of European(by and large Western) colonial rule. Good thing that Russia & China are finally putting a stop to that.woot


Yeah, because unlike the evil Westerners, Russia and China have only the best intentions for Africa in their minds...

[The Dane]

Strike us? Taiwan? I think there's a bit of confusion here.
Taiwan's on our side.

I was just proffering a laughable proposition. Something that would undoubtedly infuriate China.

Hail the kid, He's cool..

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Hail the kid, He's cool..

I just wasn't sure what he meant.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Wasn't Mugabe the West's (and Easts) favorite at one point of time?

[thscott83]

Thank you Bob, for protecting the rich soil of Zimbabwe from those greedy farmers who wish to grow food on it. Shout out from Mao on the economic policies.

[Ordie]

It's really up to Zimbabwe's neighbors to step up to the plate now. Their political stability, social order and economies are being affected with the crisis.

[vinny_121_ND]

:cantbeli:Only stupid chinese, russians and south-africans either don't see this obvious fact or are just inherently evil people which want every african dead.

Just the governments my friend.

Even if there was sanctions, do you think that will force mugabe to step down? No. It will feed his assumptions that the 'evil west' is out to get him.

[PeterRJG]

It's really up to Zimbabwe's neighbors to step up to the plate now. Their political stability, social order and economies are being affected with the crisis.

Which isn't going to happen. Mugabe is seen as a godfather revered father of his nation figure by his neighbours. The fact that he is exponentially worse as a tyrant, a murderer and a denier of freedoms than the white colonisers he replaced, is all irrelevant.

[Ed Robinson]

The Dirty Half-Dozen: The generals who are even more ruthless and bloodthirsty than Mugabe

By Andrew Malone (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Andrew+Malone)
Last updated at 12:35 AM on 05th July 2008
<LI class=first>http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/furniture/comment.gifComments (0) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031975/The-Dirty-Half-Dozen-The-generals-ruthless-bloodthirsty-Mugabe.html#comments)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/furniture/white_arrow.gif Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031975/The-Dirty-Half-Dozen-The-generals-ruthless-bloodthirsty-Mugabe.html)
His Excellency was perspiring, even though there was frost on the ground. In the palatial gardens of State House, the oak-panelled home of former British colonial rulers, Robert Mugabe's face glistened with sweat as he was declared President of the Republic of Zimbabwe. He pulled at his cuffs and glanced over his shoulder.

After 28 years of bloody rule - and two hours before the election results were announced 'live' on state-controlled TV - Mugabe appeared anxious as he was sworn in for a record sixth term this week. His opponents had been killed or forced at gunpoint to vote in rigged elections.

Yet it wasn't the international outcry over this that worried him. No, beneath the megalomania, what he must know is that he has already lost power, not to the persecuted opposition Movement for Democrat Change (MDC), but to a bloody - and secret - cabal.

Sitting behind Mugabe at the ceremony, as Chinese-built fighter jets screamed overhead, six men glowered and followed their dictator's every move.

Thickset and bursting out of their heavily decorated military uniforms, the watching men were The Generals - a group of cold-blooded killers who have seized power in Zimbabwe and revel in nicknames such as The Butcher and The Son Of God.

Dubbed the Dirty Half-Dozen or The Gang Of Six by Zimbabwe's traumatised people, The Generals have formed a military junta with terrifying plans to 'eliminate all opponents'. They forced Mugabe to hand over power to them at a meeting in State House, his HQ in Harare, the capital, days after he lost the first round of elections on March 29.

In a chilling turn of events, they arrived in a fleet of black Mercedes on April 5 and issued the President with an ultimatum: withhold the election results, stand aside and let them do their work to ensure they never again face a challenge to their lucrative, blood-thirsty rule.

Faced with exile and disgrace after this unthinkable defeat, not to mention the threat of being tried by the UN for war crimes, diplomats say Mugabe could see no way out.

He could agree to the deal in return for staying on as a figurehead president - or face the wrath of men responsible for some of Zimbabwe's bloodiest massacres, where pregnant women have been cut open and their unborn babies thrown down wells.

According to palace insiders, even Grace, Mugabe's wife, has turned against her husband. She was working as a security guard at State House when the President first spotted her and she officially became Zimbabwe's First Lady after Mugabe's first wife died. Grace relished the role, commandeering the country's aircraft for shopping sprees in Paris, London and Milan.

Now, however, she is furious at the prospect of losing the perks of office, which include five mansions and the delivery of boxes stuffed with millions of U.S. dollars to her home each month. She told Mugabe, 40 years her senior, to accept the deal offered by The Generals. Reluctantly, he agreed.

Mugabe ceded power to men schooled in torture and political assassinations at the infamous Chinese military academy in Nanking. At meetings held under their junta - called the Joint Operational Command (JOC), which controls the secret services, army, air force, police and prisons - The Generals decreed 'they will never give up power'.

To keep their promise, they have created a highly sophisticated state terror apparatus to quell future dissent. They are led by Emmerson Mnangagwa, a founding member of the notorious Crocodile Gang, who tortured and murdered white farmers during Mugabe's guerilla war against white rule in the late Seventies.

But Mnangagwa's cruelty was not confined to attacks on whites. He was also notorious for his role as director of intelligence during Operation Gukurahundi ('the rain that washes away the chaff'), a genocidal campaign against a breakaway guerilla faction led by Joshua Nkomo during the war of independence.

After being jailed during the days of white rule for his part in atrocities, he rose through the ranks of the ruling ZANU-PF party following independence in 1980. With an elaborate network of informers, Mnangagwa was responsible for directing the paramilitary Fifth Brigade against black enemy targets, particularly the supporters of Nkomo in Matabeleland in the south-west of the country.

Trained by North Korea and armed with the latest weapons, the Fifth Brigade has been blamed for the deaths of up to 20,000 people during the Matabeleland Massacres between 1982 and 1986. Many were killed at public executions. After being told to dig their own graves, with family and friends forced to look on, the victims were shot. Others were burned alive in their huts. Women and babies were thrown into boreholes used for water.

Along with Grace Mugabe and others in The Gang Of Six, Mnangagwa - who calls himself The Son Of God and claims to be accountable to no one - made millions by ordering troops into the Democratic Republic of Congo during the late Nineties.

In a war that claimed more than three million lives, the soldiers battled for control of the Congo's diamond mines - and Zimbabwe's state airline was used as part of an elaborate gem-smuggling operation that made an estimated £5 billion for those involved.

All this has made Mnangagwa - who has replaced Mugabe as chief of the Joint Operational Command - the wealthiest man in Zimbabwe. He has a magnificent walled palace in Harare with a helicopter pad, and a sprawling ranch.

His chief partner in crime is General Constantine Chiwenga, the head of Zimbabwe's defence forces, who lives in a sparkling white villa with swimming pools and servants' quarters, in splendid isolation on a hill overlooking the squalor of Harare.

Brusque and with a volcanic temper, Chiwenga led the Fifth Brigade during the genocide against Nkomo's Ndebele tribe. Known as The Butcher Of Matabeleland, he is reputed to have thrown suspected Nkomo supporters out of helicopters.

The behaviour of Chiwenga's wife, Jocelyn, a former prostitute, has not done much for his recent mood. She shops with an entourage of soldiers to push the poor out of the way - and once shouted at Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of the opposition, that she would 'take his manhood' when she spotted him in the street. She has also seized two farms from white owners, saying she would 'taste their blood' if they refused to hand over the land.

Along with Augustine Chihuri (head of the police), Paradzai Zimondi (head of prisons), Perence Shiri ( airforce) and Gideon Gono (in charge of funding), these are the men who intelligence sources in Harare say are in control of the country and 'running a regime within a regime.'


And they are as determined as any dictator that they will not give up power. As well as being wanted for war crimes, they suffer none of the hardships faced by millions of Zimbabweans every day. While many are reduced to killing wild animals and living off berries, The Generals live in Borrowdale Brook, an exclusive development in the north of the city.

At their own exclusive supermarket, stocked with goods smuggled in by road and air, the families and relatives of The Generals browse through a selection of fresh seafood, including lobster and tiger prawns, as well as the finest French wines and cheeses.

At a clandestine meeting with one dissident Zanu-PF source, down a dirt track surrounded by elephant grass that had grown to head height, I was shown documents purporting to outline the junta's 'final solution' against enemies of their regime.

In a strategy with chilling echoes of the Matabeleland Massacres, the documents reveal that the killing has only just started - and provide conclusive proof that ballot boxes were stuffed all over the country, 'watched by death squads with orders to kill opposition MPs'.

Of course, we cannot be sure that they are genuine, but they also apparently reveal that if Tsvangirai's MDC had not pulled out over fears of a bloodbath, the election 'results' would not have been released and he would have been charged with treason and hanged.

They state that the killing must continue even after Mugabe has cheated his way to power, 'with terror to be unleashed after the elections . . . [With] voting patterns to be assessed to determine where terror should be unleashed'.

As Tsvangirai remains in hiding at the Dutch Embassy after threats on his life, his supporters are on the run in the face of a brutal new crackdown. With foreign journalists banned and radio broadcasts from neighbouring countries blocked, the strategy is designed to ensure the scale of the onslaught does not reach the outside world.

Doctors at hospitals I visited reported a harrowing new medical phenomenon: the kidneys of victims 'exploding'. 'The blood cells burst during prolonged beatings, clogging the kidneys, which can't cope,' one doctor said, to the background noise of screaming from victims in the wards.

'The kidneys collapse and the patients die. It's horrible. It's ugly and it's getting worse. The Generals have killed and killed and killed. It is crude torture with horrific consequences. It's like there is a war - with only one side fighting it.' Lovemore Zilika, 47, was asleep at home when a gang high on drink and drugs started throwing rocks through his windows.

They pounced when he went to investigate, beating him using crude clubs with nails sticking out. Lifting his dressings to show masses of red, shredded flesh, Lovemore also had both legs broken in 20 places. His legs are in plaster up to his groin and they may have to be amputated.

'These people are killers,' he said. 'They only left me because they thought I was dead. As they beat me, they kept asking why I wanted to support the MDC. These people are not human.'
One woman said she was beaten and taken to a hut in the bush, where she was repeatedly raped. 'There were ten,' she said, weeping.

Another victim, a 42-year- old man who gave his name only as Gudzai, told how he was dragged from his home at night. As his arms and legs were broken with iron bars and rocks, he kept slipping into unconsciousness. 'They would throw water over me to make me come round,' he said. 'Then they started beating me again.'

This has prompted warnings that the people will rise up - and wreak awful revenge on their rulers, with the country sliding into civil war. Yet even the most committed MDC activists were last week in hiding fearing the 'final solution.'

After being called late at night this week, I was taken to a safe house - one of dozens used to hide 'enemies of the regime' before they can be smuggled out of the country. After a raft of elaborate security precautions, I was introduced to three MDC officials whose names are on death lists distributed by the junta.
Kimberley, 26, was held at four torture camps last week. He was forced to simulate *** with a hole in the ground and beaten with logs. He was put in a cell with two rotting bodies for 24 hours and was denounced by fellow opposition supporters, who had been beaten for hours into submission.

'They kept shouting at me that I was a sell-out,' he told me, grinning despite his injuries. 'They burned my home and those of my relatives. They blindfolded and tortured me. I was eventually dumped in the bush. They thought I was dead. I couldn't walk, but villagers helped me.'

The interview was interrupted. A car had been heard. Kimberley told me to go before 'they' came.

Asked if he had a message for the West, he said: 'The world needs to mobilise to get rid of these people. I have a baby daughter and I want her to grow up without fear. That's all any of us want.'

But The Gang Of Six has too much to lose. As one Western diplomat told me before I slipped out of Zimbabwe: 'These men will not give up power. They are in too deep. They have too much blood on their hands. They have shown they will stop at nothing to keep what they have got.'

Pity the brave people of Zimbabwe. For I suspect that even the removal of Robert Mugabe will not be enough to save them.

[Ed Robinson]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031975/The-Dirty-Half-Dozen-The-generals-ruthless-bloodthirsty-Mugabe.html

The afore article should give some idea why the Chinese boycotted the vote.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031975/The-Dirty-Half-Dozen-The-generals-ruthless-bloodthirsty-Mugabe.html

The afore article should give some idea why the Chinese boycotted the vote.

The Chinese didn't boycott the vote, they vetoed the draft resolution.

[LaoSexMachine]

Sanctions don't hurt the people in power. They hurt the average citizen just trying to make it to the next day.

[CPL Trevoga]

Europeans was the reason why Africa is such a mess. US or EU should not be "captains save a ho" a let Africans unf*ck themselves.

[Zoomie]

Europeans was the reason why Africa is such a mess. US or EU should not be "captains save a ho" a let Africans unf*ck themselves.
Because Rwanada and the Sudan are oh so perfect examples of that happening, right?:roll:

[Lt. James Anderson]

Europeans was the reason why Africa is such a mess.

BS! Africa was always a mess ... and always will be a mess ...


US or EU should not be "captains save a ho" a let Africans unf*ck themselves.

Agree hundred percent ...

[Gesher]

Sanctions don't hurt the people in power. They hurt the average citizen just trying to make it to the next day.

The proposed sanctions were a ban on arms shipments and a ban on travel for Mugabe, not that damaging to the people unless Zimbabweans are trying to eat ak's and cram on to Mugabe's planes to get the hell out of there. Even if it was economic sanctions the economy of Zimbabwe is so far out of control it can't get that much worse and leaving mugabe in place to print more bills and kill experienced farmers makes it worse. The inflation is (unofficially) around one US dollar to 18712000000 Zimbabwe dollars according to (not sure how reliable) http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic and by the time you go on the site it probably went up. Even if these sanctions do little it at least would put more pressure on Mugabe to compromise and is unlikely to make it worse for the people.

[LaoSexMachine]

The proposed sanctions were a ban on arms shipments and a ban on travel for Mugabe, not that damaging to the people unless Zimbabweans are trying to eat ak's and cram on to Mugabe's planes to get the hell out of there. Even if it was economic sanctions the economy of Zimbabwe is so far out of control it can't get that much worse and leaving mugabe in place to print more bills and kill experienced farmers makes it worse. The inflation is (unofficially) around one US dollar to 18712000000 Zimbabwe dollars according to (not sure how reliable) http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic and by the time you go on the site it probably went up. Even if these sanctions do little it at least would put more pressure on Mugabe to compromise and is unlikely to make it worse for the people.



Yes. Worked well in Iraq during the 90's.

[Gesher]

Yes. Worked well in Iraq during the 90's.

Unlike Iraq, Zimbabwe isn't sitting on a pile of oil and nerve gas.

[LaoSexMachine]

Unlike Iraq, Zimbabwe isn't sitting on a pile of oil and nerve gas.

We can sanction all we want but it's not going to do crap. Look at Cuba or Burma.

[Gesher]

We can sanction all we want but it's not going to do crap. Look at Cuba or Burma.

Ok, i see your point on that. But this is not just a ecomomic thing, to quote the BBC "The measures proposed in the draft UN resolution had included an arms embargo and a travel ban for President Robert Mugabe and 13 of his key allies." This is meant to isolate Mugabe and limit his key lifeline, the military. Another difference is while Iraq, Burma and Cuba have a somewhat viable economy Zimbabwe has none to speak of. And besides it can't hurt to try.

[Rudolph]

China is desperate for minerals, and that's a problem. They have every right to deal with Zim, but it does the average citizen no good...

[asch]

Ok, i see your point on that. But this is not just a ecomomic thing, to quote the BBC "The measures proposed in the draft UN resolution had included an arms embargo and a travel ban for President Robert Mugabe and 13 of his key allies." This is meant to isolate Mugabe and limit his key lifeline, the military. Another difference is while Iraq, Burma and Cuba have a somewhat viable economy Zimbabwe has none to speak of. And besides it can't hurt to try.
It's not really hurt Zimbabwe military much and not limit their abilities to keep control over state population. And travel ban will not cause Mugabe heart attack. it was low-importance issue that demonstrate alliances and interest protection in UN, as always. don't understand so much interest in this thread. oh, how can i forget, it have "China" and "Russia" names in title.
p-)

[Lerclair]

Because Rwanada and the Sudan are oh so perfect examples of that happening, right?:roll:I am tired of this... you people only seems to knows, as much as, what So-called free Mass news agency chooses to tell you. And I thought the lead up to "Iraqi Freedom", has knock some sense into you that they are simply propaganda networks disguising as news.

Like the coined saying that "We have done nothing in Rawada, and see what happened there".. is nonsense. Both France and USA is deep in the cease-pool for what's happening in Rawanda, and even started the situation in Darfur, by supporting the Rebels thru proxy from Uganda and Chad, to regime change Sudan.

Get this in the head, There is nothing wrong with Legit government fighting foreign supported rebels, who are just as brutal. Every Civil war is nasty. China is just one of seven countries supplying weapons to the legit Sudan government. Sudan is also Africa's third arms producer behind Egypt and South Africa and is self-sufficient in conventional arms and ammunition.

Now who is supplying or financing weapons to the rebels ? Why isn't this questioned ?

[mxiong]

Now who is supplying or financing weapons to the rebels ? Why isn't this questioned ?

How dare you? The rebels are of course good guys since they are called "Justice and Equality Movement". :roll:

[Alexandr]

Now who is supplying or financing weapons to the rebels ? Why isn't this questioned ?

Becouse Saudi Arabia is not exist in Western eyes.Pure magic,isnt it?

[the_hog]

Russia and China have invested interests in Zim. Mbeki, well who knows WTF is happening inside that ostrich sized brain.

[tyovan]

Disgusting - this is one of the most horrible humanitarian crises in the world today and Russia and China support letting the status quo continue. Not like those two countries care much about their own citizens anyway.

[Brute]

Disgusting - this is one of the most horrible humanitarian crises in the world today and Russia and China support letting the status quo continue. Not like those two countries care much about their own citizens anyway.




Sanctioning the elite would've done f*ck all to help the people. Get off your high horse.

[vinny_121_ND]

Disgusting - this is one of the most horrible humanitarian crises in the world today and Russia and China support letting the status quo continue. Not like those two countries care much about their own citizens anyway.

Sanctions don't work whatsoever. Canada imposed sanctions on Burma, and no noticeable change happened.

[kosse]

Sanctions don't work whatsoever. Canada imposed sanctions on Burma, and no noticeable change happened.
Erhm, that would be because Canada is too small a player and can't do sh*t by itself. Decisions made at security council level, however, are binding when it comes to economic sanctions. That means all UN members have to abide by them. It's a bit different matter.

[Alexandr]

Disgusting - this is one of the most horrible humanitarian crises in the world today and Russia and China support letting the status quo continue. Not like those two countries care much about their own citizens anyway.


only way of development for modern Zimbabwe if status quo will removed - democrazy on Somalia examlpe - everyone will have right to express his human rights by bullets to anyone he dislike.Is it better?

[tsuri]

The reason for the veto is the same it has always been. If China and Russia were ever so smart about what should be done in these cases, they would submit their own draft resolutions. But they do not because they want things to remain as they are. Good relations with the President who opresses his own people. Not that Russia where votes are rigged and the Mafia runs the government or China where no politician outside of a village and no party member have ever been held accountable in an election would feel bad about this.

They are afraid that they could be the next ones. They do not want to set a precedence even if it is just the unpopular dictator of a generic backwater country.

[Mr.Flint]

only way of development for modern Zimbabwe if status quo will removed - democrazy on Somalia examlpe - everyone will have right to express his human rights by bullets to anyone he dislike.Is it better?
I dont think its any worser when only one side have the right to express his human rights by bullets to anyone they dislike, and the other side should just roll over and die.

[Alexandr]

So,world needs Somalia N2?
Mugabe is the only one who confronts rising islamic extremism btw.All that "democratic for people" or "socialists for people" movements are woossies,who whant only one thing - take Mugabe's place and rule as he did,or even harshier.
There are only two real powers - Mugabe vs islamists,others too devided sectarian and ethnical.

[Mousepad]

So, why bother, screw UN, if Axis of awesome goodness wish only good for Zimbabwe, they already have uber plan - "ban guns for Mug, ban travel for Mug" just sit and wait, after so complicated a plan, democracy will build itself, and one more thing - absolutely NO Blackhawks, Delta and Rangers in that area, even if Hollywood lobby will ensist.

[Mousepad]

So,world needs Somalia N2?
Mugabe is the only one who confronts rising islamic extremism btw.All that "democratic for people" or "socialists for people" movements are woossies,who whant only one thing - take Mugabe's place and rule as he did,or even harshier.
There are only two real powers - Mugabe and islamists.

damn you fast on keyboard rofl

[Mr.Flint]

So,world needs Somalia N2?
Mugabe is the only one who confronts rising islamic extremism btw.All that "democratic for people" or "socialists for people" movements are woossies,who whant only one thing - take Mugabe's place and rule as he did,or even harshier.
There are only two real powers - Mugabe vs islamists,others too devided sectarian and ethnical.
Oh yay for Mugabe for confronting rising islamic extremism!
Wait where was that islamic extremism before he made a rich country into a piss poor hellhole? Oh thats right, it didnt exist there...
I really cant grasp it who in a right mind can say that such an insane, murderous brute as Mugabe should be kept in place because he is supposedly the lesser of evils.

[kosse]

Oh yay for Mugabe for confronting rising islamic extremism!
Wait where was that islamic extremism before he made a rich country into a piss poor hellhole? Oh thats right, it didnt exist there...
I really cant grasp it who in a right mind can say that such an insane, murderous brute as Mugabe should be kept in place because he is supposedly the lesser of evils.

I was going to say the same. Mugabe has created perfect breeding ground for all kinds of extreme ideologies. But all is not lost yet; it seems that only a few percent maximum of the Zimbabwe's population are muslim.

[Alexandr]

Ok,what your scenarios?Take away Mugabe,and what after?There are tens of tribes who want to establish their brothers to power,and kick other tribes arses.They not united by religion,tens of Christian sects,with totaly different values.And as Kosse said there are few percentage of muslims,but their are stronger anyway,becouse others to splitted.
How handle that situation?

[Mr.Flint]

Ok,what your scenarios?Take away Mugabe,and what after?There are tens of tribes who want to establish their brothers to power,and kick other tribes arses.They not united by religion,tens of Christian sects,with totaly different values.And as Kosse said there are few percentage of muslims,but their are stronger anyway,becouse others to splitted.
How handle that situation?


The majority people, the Shona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shona_people), comprise 60 to 64%. The Ndebele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndebele_people_%28Zimbabwe%29) are the second most populous with 28 to 30% of the population.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu)Bantu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu) speakers of other ethnicities are the third largest with 8 to 10%, including Batonga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batonga) in the Zambezi valley region, Shangaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangaan) in the southeast and Venda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda) in the Limpopo valley.
Other no more that 1.5%

[Alexandr]

Look close to same wiki artcile

Shona is not a tribe,its dialect group
Shona include tribes:
Karanga
Zezuru
Manyika
Ndau
Korekore
" ZANLA was esssentially Shona in composition, while the rival group ZIPRA was drawn from the Ndebele ethnic group, which is separate from, although related to, the Shona.

In late 2004, Mugabe filled every top position in the state with members of his Zezuru clan and pushed out the Karangas."

+add religion separation inside tribes and you will get whole picture.

[Starlight]

The small Islamic community consists of the Asian community of Pakistani origin, they are keeping a low profile in order to not attract unwanted attention to themselves. The Chinese are sourcing raw materials from Zim much of which was processed in the country before Mugabe destroyed the local industries. No repair and maintenece of the infrastructure has taken place, and Chinese nationals iving in the country teat the local people in a contemtuous manner. One "industry" I visited consisted of a clearing in the bush where a staff of ten men made concrete building blocks, has no toilets, no washing facilities, no break room for meals and not even basic shelter for the workers. Under the old Rhodesian labour laws,all these were provided. The country is being exploited as never before. Part of the intention in applying the personal 'sanctions' was to trace and freeze money 'salted' away by senior members of the government, (stolen from public funds) to be used towards the rebuilding of the country when the present regime is finally replaced.

[Ordie]

"Washing hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral".
-Paulo Freire

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose. ~Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist

Morality is a private and costly luxury. ~Henry B. Adams

What is morality in any given time or place? It is what the majority then and there happen to like, and immorality is what they dislike. ~Alfred North Whitehead

I'd rather owe the world than let the world be indebted to me. ~ CaoCao, Romance of the Three Kingdoms

And here is my recent fav...Live for Nothing, die for something. Your call.

[tsuri]

Ok,what your scenarios?Take away Mugabe,and what after?There are tens of tribes who want to establish their brothers to power,and kick other tribes arses.They not united by religion,tens of Christian sects,with totaly different values.And as Kosse said there are few percentage of muslims,but their are stronger anyway,becouse others to splitted.
How handle that situation?

They hold an election, Tsvangirai probably wins. End of story. Civil Society works pretty well in Zimbabwe. Did you bother looking at voter turnouts and the actual makeup of the political system before you went to Wikipedia to look up tribes that have largely no meaning in Zimbabwe today since the cleavages are elsewhere to be found.
It is a bit strange, if not backwards, to assume that all African states will fall apart into a tribal mess once their brutal slave master of a dictator is removed from office....

[Alexandr]

It is a bit strange, if not backwards, to assume that all African states will fall apart into a tribal mess once their brutal slave master of a dictator is removed from office....

Strange?It happens everywhere.Power lost - Anarchy comes in da house.
And you need much more totalitaric power to keep broken pieces together.
Aside of "primitive" African and Asian nations,French Revolutin case rings a bell?Tyrantic Ludovics,and after them insane massacres and bloodbathes in the name of Freedom,and after them Napolen Bounapart,who made Ludovics looks like an innosent kids.

[tsuri]

Aside of "primitive" African and Asian nations,French Revolutin case rings a bell?Tyrantic Ludovics,and after them insane massacres and bloodbathes in the name of Freedom,and after them Napolen Bounapart,who made Ludovics looks like an innosent kids.
300 years ago? Without the UN and the AU to keep watch? You might look at more recent examples. When the people of eastern europe freed themselves of soviet opression, they did not split up into tribes and killed each other. They are among the most peaceful and most developed nations now. Same case can be made for several former colonial states in Africa and Asia that made a peaceful transition.


Strange?It happens everywhere.Power lost - Anarchy comes in da house.

Except there is an actual democratic movement of several parties in this country that would fill the power vacuum. Rhodesia handled the transition pretty well until the rebels turned out to be more authoritarian than the whites they had replaced.

[Rudolph]

SAfrica slams 'unacceptable' US criticism in Zimbabwe row (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080715/wl_africa_afp/zimbabwepoliticssafricadiplomacy;_ylt=AulWluQe6TgXdJfTvOQMpwq96Q8F)

PRETORIA (AFP) - South Africa on Tuesday labelled as "unacceptable" suggestions by a US ambassador at the United Nations that President Thabo Mbeki was "out of touch" regarding Zimbabwe's political crisis.

"The extraordinary and unacceptable statements made will be taken up through diplomatic channels," South African deputy foreign minister Aziz Pahad said.

"A British representative said South African mediation efforts had come to nought and we have achieved nothing," he added.

"The US representative made remarks about Russia not being a worthy member of the G8 and suggested that President Thabo Mbeki is out of touch with his own country.

"These are not acceptable statements and we will take it up with those governments."

The United States on Friday launched a scathing attack on Mbeki after Pretoria's UN envoy voted against targeted sanctions against Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe's regime at the United Nations Security Council.
"We are surprised by what appears as Mbeki appearing to protect Mugabe while Mugabe uses violent means to fragment the opposition," US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said.

"I think he (Mbeki) is out of touch with the trends inside his own country."
China and Russia vetoed the sanctions that would have imposed a travel ban and an assets freeze on Mugabe and 13 of his cronies as well an arms embargo on the Harare regime.

The United States also sharply criticised Russia over its stance.
Mbeki has served as mediator between Zimbabwe's rival political parties, but has faced heavy criticism over his quiet diplomacy approach.
Zimbabwe opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai had previously called for him to be stripped of his role as mediator, while Mugabe's regime has praised the South African leader's efforts.

The crisis in neighbouring Zimbabwe intensified when Mugabe pushed ahead with a one-man presidential run-off on June 27, defying international and regional calls to postpone the poll.

Tsvangirai pulled out of the election five days ahead of the vote, citing rising violence against his supporters that left dozens dead and thousands injured.

Pahad described the South African president's relationship with Tsvangirai as "very good" and said suggestions that the Mbeki-led mediation team should be expanded were a "fake issue, diverting from other more important issues."

Opponents of the sanctions argued mediation efforts should be supported, and that such measures would set them back.

[0rphie]

When the people of eastern europe freed themselves of soviet opression, they did not split up into tribes and killed each other. They are among the most peaceful and most developed nations now. .
I am just curious how come they became developed. did they develop space industry, or advanced military industry, or any medical science advances? What kept them from turning into a chaos was billions and billions western europeans tax dollars. and their peacefulness towards russia is not even worth discussing.

[Havoc345]

Oh well...I guess the US and it's sidekicks won't have a UN cover for their dirty undeclared war against Mugabe. Maybe they should organise another "coalition of the willing" and give invasion a go.

Just one question....how come no one gives a s.h.i.t. about other african leaders with less then impressive records?

Choke yourself, But seriously do you even understand the situation in Zimbabwe ?

[loui_ludwig]

China and Russia will always oppose the US in the UN. The reason is by using their veto power, is that they want to be superpower like the US. Russia was but now is trying to reclaim it. China is trying to become one. Its not that they see that resoslutions are wrong, but they don't want the US to lead on everything.

[Paya]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of the UN economic sanctions, let me assure you that they don't hurt the man in power one bit. It's the people who suffer. And since the people of Zimbabwe already have to buy food with food stamps, there would surely be widespread famine.

So the truth is, Russia and China saved lives with a simple veto at the Security Council. Many lives.

[Revolveri]

I think the Africans should be left to deal with their own problems. A baby will never learn to walk if you always carry it. Europe had its revolutions and wars, millions died and now after so many years of bloodshed we may have finally learnt something. Well alright the Americans got involved in the war after a few years but there's no major war in Africa yet...

Though I guess what made it easier for us is we are culturally more homogeneous than the thousands of little tribes in Africa...

And what comes to the UN, I think it's one of those organizations that aren't needed. Why should China or Russia have a say about US embargoes or vice versa?

[Kilgor]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of the UN economic sanctions, let me assure you that they don't hurt the man in power one bit. It's the people who suffer. And since the people of Zimbabwe already have to buy food with food stamps, there would surely be widespread famine.

So the truth is, Russia and China saved lives with a simple veto at the Security Council. Many lives.

Obviously you dont read, these are targeted sanctions against the leadership caste.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

So the truth is, Russia and China saved lives with a simple veto at the Security Council. Many lives.

Do you even know what the proposed resolution was?

An arms embargo and travel restriction on members of Mugabe's inner circle.

How does that save any lives?

[Paya]

Do you even know what the proposed resolution was?

An arms embargo and travel restriction on members of Mugabe's inner circle.

How does that save any lives?


Obviously you dont read, these are targeted sanctions against the leadership caste.
Obviously. My apologies, gentlemen.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Obviously. My apologies, gentlemen.

No problem.

I do agree with you, if I understand correctly, that economic sanctions cause harm mainly to the populace, not for the leadership of a country.

[Starlight]

No problem.

I do agree with you, if I understand correctly, that economic sanctions cause harm mainly to the populace, not for the leadership of a country.
And yet it was the economic sanctions against Rhodesia which drove the economy toward self-sufficiency, and ultimately, exporting goods which had previously been imported. There were inconveniences such as fuel rationing, but overall the determination of our people to not be defeated by sanctions, made the said sanctions largely ineffective.