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J-10
06-04-2004, 05:52 AM
Pentagon plan pulls troops from Germany, rearranges them.
Article Published: Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 7:47:30 PM PST
By Michael R. Gordon
The New York Times

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon has proposed a plan to withdraw its two Army divisions from Germany and undertake an array of other changes in its European-based forces, in the most significant rearrangement of the U.S. military around the world since the beginning of the Cold War, according to U.S. and allied officials.

Pentagon policy-makers said the aim is to afford maximum flexibility in sending forces to the Middle East, Central Asia and other potential battlegrounds. But some experts and allied officials are concerned that the shift will reduce Washington's influence in NATO and weaken its dip lomatic links with its allies, all at a time of rising anti-American sentiment around the world.

The proposal to withdraw the divisions comes at a time when the Army is stretched thin by deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Pentagon officials said the move, which has been under consideration for some time and involves forces in Asia as well as in Europe, is unrelated to the current fighting.

Who would move

Under the Pentagon plan, the Germany-based 1st Armored Division and 1st Infantry Division would be returned to the United States. A brigade equipped with Stryker light armored vehicles would be deployed in Germany. A typical division consists of three brigades and can number 20,000 troops if logistical units are included, though these two divisions have only two brigades each in Germany, with the other brigade in the United States.

In addition, a wing of F-16 fighters may be shifted from their base in Spangdahlem, Germany, to the Incirlik base in Turkey, which would move the aircraft closer to the volatile Middle East; a wing generally consists of 72 aircraft. Under the Pentagon plan, the shift would be carried out only if the Turks give the United States broad latitude for using them, something that some officials see as unlikely.

The Navy's headquarters in Europe would be transferred from Britain to Italy. Bush administration officials are also discussing plans to remove some F-15 fighters from Britain and to withdraw the handful of F-15 fighters that are normally deployed in Iceland, though final decisions have not made.

Approval needed

Administration officials said Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy, recently briefed German officials on the plan. The Germans were told that the withdrawal plan had yet to be formally approved by President Bush and that the United States would listen to their concerns, a U.S. official said.

Officials said they expected the major decisions on the rearrangement to be made in a month or two. But the main direction of the Pentagon plan appears to be set.

"Everything is going to move everywhere,' Feith said a year ago, as the Bush administration was beginning to develop the details of its plan. "There is not going to be a place in the world where it's going to be the same as it used to be.'

'21st-century' plans

For Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, the reasons for the reshuffling seem clear and compelling: that the purpose of military units is to fight and win the nation's wars, and they should be stationed in locations that enable the United States to use them most efficiently and with minimal political restrictions.

"It's time to adjust those locations from static defense to a more agile and a more capable and a more 21st-century posture,' Rumsfeld told reporters on Thursday on a flight to Singapore.

Proponents of Rumsfeld's plan see little merit in keeping a large number of forces in Germany now that the Cold War is over. They argue that the United States would be better off withdrawing most of them and establishing new bases in southeastern Europe, from which forces could be rushed if there was a crisis in the Caucasus or the Middle East.

"From a strategic point of view, there is more sense in moving things out of Germany and having something in Bulgaria and Romania,' said Joseph Ralston, a retired general and former NATO commander.

But some experts and allied officials are concerned that a substantial reduction in the United States military presence in Europe would reduce U.S. influence there, reinforce the notion that the Bush administration prefers to act unilaterally and inadvertently lend support to the French contention that Europe must rely on itself for its security.

Montgomery Meigs, a retired general and the former head of Army forces in Europe, said substantial reductions in U.S. troops in Europe could limit the opportunities to train with NATO's new East European members and other allies. While U.S. forces can still be sent for exercises from the United States, he said, it will be more difficult and costly to do so.

"You will never sustain the level of engagement from the United States that you can from Europe,' he said. "We will not go to as many NATO exercises or have as many training events.

Damaged alliance?

Other specialists have warned that the greatest risk is the possible damage to allied relations.

"The most serious potential consequences of the contemplated shifts would not be military but political and diplomatic,' Kurt Campbell and Celeste Johnson Ward of the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies wrote in an article published last year in the journal Foreign Affairs, well before the extent of the changes now planned became known.

"Unless the changes are paired with a sustained and effective diplomatic campaign, therefore, they could well increase foreign anxiety about and distrust of the United States.'

Gen. James Jones, the U.S. commander of NATO, has supported the withdrawal of the two divisions from Europe on the understanding that U.S. ground units would rotate regularly through Europe, allied officials say. But some allied officials believe it is less clear that the Pentagon will finance and organize the regular rotation of forces that are central to Jones' vision, especially since so much of the United States' energy and effort is focused on Iraq.

From (http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21474~2191094,00.html)

J-10
06-04-2004, 06:12 AM
I bet French would like to hear this news p-)

Parzival
06-04-2004, 06:16 AM
I bet French would like to hear this news p-)
Yea, We french (europeans) are vevry glad to hear this.

Navy
06-04-2004, 06:28 AM
Oh no! hes back..

Mark Sman
06-04-2004, 06:32 AM
The US established bases in Europe for the purpose of promoting a free and democratic Europe. These aims have been meet. Mission accomplished.

Europe is quite capable of defending itself. Europe can rest assured that the US would participate in any action necessary to defend Europe. NATO specifically states this in the charter.

Of course the US could rely on NATO to help defend it. Right? As specifically stated in the NATO charter.

So why should the US maintian troops or bases in Europe? Interoperability is a good reason. NATO units regulary come to the US to train. Maybe they will have to do more of that. US units would still be welcome in Europe to train, right?

OK. That was simple.

Should the US maintain bases in Europe because of political advantage?

No. The Europeans are quite capable of making up their own minds about politics.

So why should the US have large troop formations in Europe?

Foward deployment? No. The US can get anywhere, anytime. Not to mention the fact that most of the places we may need to go aren't in Europe. Because the Europeans can defend themselves.

Will it create the perception that Europe and the US aren't as allied as they used to be? Maybe. So what.

We have spent enough lives, time and money on Europe. If they need our help again, we will be there.

I'm sure that if we need their help they will be there for us too. Right?

Kilgor
06-04-2004, 06:54 AM
I bet French would like to hear this news p-)
Yea, We french (europeans) are vevry glad to hear this.

Very glad ?

:roll:

Luxembourger
06-04-2004, 07:10 AM
But I think there are many American families in Germany that are established well and don t want to leave so quickly.

oldsoak
06-04-2004, 07:11 AM
The US established bases in Europe for the purpose of promoting a free and democratic Europe. These aims have been meet. Mission accomplished.

Europe is quite capable of defending itself. Europe can rest assured that the US would participate in any action necessary to defend Europe. NATO specifically states this in the charter.

Of course the US could rely on NATO to help defend it. Right? As specifically stated in the NATO charter.

So why should the US maintian troops or bases in Europe? Interoperability is a good reason. NATO units regulary come to the US to train. Maybe they will have to do more of that. US units would still be welcome in Europe to train, right?

OK. That was simple.

Should the US maintain bases in Europe because of political advantage?

No. The Europeans are quite capable of making up their own minds about politics.

So why should the US have large troop formations in Europe?

Foward deployment? No. The US can get anywhere, anytime. Not to mention the fact that most of the places we may need to go aren't in Europe. Because the Europeans can defend themselves.

Will it create the perception that Europe and the US aren't as allied as they used to be? Maybe. So what.

We have spent enough lives, time and money on Europe. If they need our help again, we will be there.

I'm sure that if we need their help they will be there for us too. Right?

Just remember no one loves you as much as when they need you, in that respect most nations are whores.
Frankly, were I the US, I'd start examining exit strategies. Start being real good pals with PRC and get out of Korea entirely and no, you wont come back if theres a war - one less place to worry about for starters.

Midav
06-04-2004, 07:28 AM
The cold war is long over and Europe is more than capable of defending itself.

I say bring the troops home and save some cash there.

Mark Sman
06-04-2004, 07:48 AM
and no, you wont come back if theres a war

That would indicate against US history and our NATO obligations , which we aren't so quick to forget. But I'll tell you what.

Deal.


get out of Korea entirely

You are right. We fought that war, under UN mandate, to prevent the North Korean armies from subjugating ROK. Mission accomplished there as well. Thanks for all your help in defending Korea folks. I'm sure that you will all devote as much effort to defending Korea as you did the last time the UN asked.

Deal.

Mark Sman
06-04-2004, 07:51 AM
But I think there are many American families in Germany that are established well and don t want to leave so quickly.

They can stay then. Germany is a free country.

Freibier
06-04-2004, 07:54 AM
Grafenwöhr without US Army will be like Oktoberfest without beer :|

G1
06-04-2004, 08:56 AM
Agree with mr. Mark Sman, the deployment of U.S troops has served its purpose and a bundle could be saved by sending the troops home.

moughoun
06-04-2004, 10:14 AM
It's time you brought your people home and we started looking after ourselves, if we can't manage that then we had better just shut up shop and move