Finland gives Russia a hand with garbage

[kosse]

Russia has addressed Finnish authorities for help to handle its major problems with garbage.

A two-year joint project has led to the demolishment of dozens of illegal dumps and provided Russia with new waste containers. However, local administrative authorities are not even ready to cover costs for trash bins, Yle News reports.

Still, there seems to be no solution in sight for final waste processing. Waste management is up to six times more expensive in Russia than in Finland, and municipalities do not have the financial capacities to handle the problem.

Nevertheless, Finnish project participants are happy with even minor results. They point to a pilot project located north of Vyborg, in Russian Karelia. The area was once filled with trash. Now dozens of illegal dumps have been turned into playgrounds and summer cottage areas, all equipped with composts and waste containers, Yle News reports.

Source: http://www.barentsobserver.com/finland-gives-russia-a-hand-with-garbage.4498100-16149.html

Why ruin so beautiful region by living like pigs? It's quite incredible that there is no money for trash bins when the state is swimming in oil money. Seems like we Finns care more about the region than Russians themselves when one considers all the aid projects aimed at it. I guess it's the old truth about stolen property: you don't take care of it like you would if you had built it yourself. Or is it just Russian way to live like that?

Discuss.

[Basillicus]

It seems that especially for the current Russian administration it's more important to try to look big rather than really take care of every day business, especially when you can rely on your gullible neighbours to take care of your dirty laundry. New military hardware is sexy, taking care of your own garbage is not.

[pacifist]

It's quite incredible that there is no money for trash bins when the state is swimming in oil money.

Why pay for it when stupid tsuhna will do it?

Russians are laughing at us.

[DRA]

One man's garbage is another man's treasure...

[Revolveri]

Oh dear Finland... We should give up on Karelia already.

[Basillicus]

Why pay for it when stupid tsuhna will do it?

Russians are laughing at us.

While I basically agree, you should ask yourself who looks more stupid in the end: the people who can't run their own country or the people who are trying to help them?

[kosse]

Why pay for it when stupid tsuhna will do it?

Russians are laughing at us.

Aye. They don't build decent sewage treatment facilities or filters in their plants either since we will intervene sooner or later and do it for them. I wonder what we will give/build for them in order to get rid of timber tariffs :roll:

[Revolveri]

While I basically agree, you should ask yourself who looks more stupid in the end: the people who can't run their own country or the people who are trying to help them?

Helping a lost cause who does not want to help themselves is silly IMO. Russia is responsible for their garbage, not Finland.

[pacifist]

I wonder what we will give up/buld for them in order to get rid of timber tariffs :roll:

They don't do that. Their plan is to make our companies to close factories in Finland and move them to Russia.


I don't mind Russia prospering as long as it's not at our expense.

[Rostov]

New military hardware is sexy, taking care of your own garbage is not.

lol, gold.

[Rostov]

Why ruin so beautiful region by living like pigs? It's quite incredible that there is no money for trash bins when the state is swimming in oil money. Seems like we Finns care more about the region than Russians themselves when one considers all the aid projects aimed at it. I guess it's the old truth about stolen property: you don't take care of it like you would if you had built it yourself. Or is it just Russian way to live like that?

Discuss.

the infrastructure in Russia is very poor, take a look at roads they are dirty, unrepaired and cant sustain enough traffic. its like peak hour 24 hours a day in Russia. They've destroyed so much nice property along with trees, just to make enough room for cars, its unbelievable. and with that now there is tons of dirt and polution that came along.

[pekka elo]

I believe the problem is twofold.

First, Russia is a developing country. Building a decent infrastructure would be an important task but money is spent on boosting economic growth instead. Unfortunately the same seems to apply to environmental problems.
Second, Russian administration is inefficient and overcomplicated.

Of course, Karelia obviously isn't Moscow's main point of interest anyways.

[wildcat]

maybe Russia should stop spending on military, and start putting some of it cash on it's self.

Very nice of Finland to help, I would be pissed if I was from there, that my tax dollar at work in a country that should be able to take care of this business for themselves.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

If I had anything to do with the plan, they'd only get the help if they paid for it completely. They have enough money, or atleast I'd think so with the insane amounts or billionaires in the country.

[kosse]

First, Russia is a developing country. Building a decent infrastructure would be an important task but money is spent on boosting economic growth instead. Unfortunately the same seems to apply to environmental problems.
Second, Russian administration is inefficient and overcomplicated.


Waste management is one of the basic functions of a society. Russia isn't some failed African country, or at least it should not be. Most poorer countries can handle their carbage without dumping them randomly all over. Should not be too hard to melt some of their rusting tanks and make some rubbish bins..

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

But then they wouldn't have 23,000 to brag about.

[CPL Trevoga]

Why pay for it when stupid tsuhna will do it?

Russians are laughing at us.

I don't think anybody is laughing. I think it's great that Finland is helping in environmental issues.

[asch]

don't forget that our country is huge. different states of Federation, different situations.
and i agree, shame on Karelians. it's fvcked up that part of a country bordering to Europe can't handle their garbage problems.
cool image they have now. p-)

[Flamming_Python]

Why ruin so beautiful region by living like pigs? It's quite incredible that there is no money for trash bins when the state is swimming in oil money. Seems like we Finns care more about the region than Russians themselves when one considers all the aid projects aimed at it. I guess it's the old truth about stolen property: you don't take care of it like you would if you had built it yourself. Or is it just Russian way to live like that?

Discuss.

Why don't you shut your old, stupid racist mouth kosse. When you're life savings, job, property lies in ruin, I can assure that your last worry would be to save the environment. Not to worry though, i'm pretty sure that a good portion of your economy will be ruined by the Russian wood tariffs, and another part by the credit crisis. Then we'll see how much spare time and money you'll have to take care of your garden.

[CPL Trevoga]

Why don't you shut your old, stupid racist mouth kosse. When you're life savings, job, property lies in ruin, I can assure that your last worry would be to save the environment. Not to worry though, i'm pretty sure that a good portion of your economy will be ruined by the Russian wood tariffs, and another part by the credit crisis. Then we'll see how much spare time and money you'll have to take care of your garden.

Common Flame, we trying to make friends here. Kosse isn't rasist. If white boy hates another boy, it's not racism. It's called, no love.

[Wall]

Then we'll see how much spare time and money you'll have to take care of your garden.
It doesnt take too much time to put garbage into trash bins.

[Alexandr]

Ohh please,stop this "im worring about nature" bs
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1212499026.66/

"EU stands by Finland in Russian wood duty conflict

The Nordic country is one of the world's largest paper and wood product manufacturers and sources much of its raw material from its much larger neighbour.

But Finnish imports have declined after Russia in 2006 started gradually ratcheting up export duties.

Moscow most recently lifted the tariff in April to 25 percent from 20 percent previously, or a minimum of 15 euros (25 dollars) per cubic metre.

"My answer is clear, we will stand by Finland in this issue and we believe the current situation is not acceptable and it is not compatible with the agreement we have with Russia," Barroso told reporters in Helsinki after meeting Finnish Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen.

Barroso added that the European Union and its Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson were trying to work constructively with Russia to find a solution.

The EU and Russia have been in negotiations but have so far failed to strike a deal. The commission has previously said the timber duties could hamper Russia's negotiations to join the World Trade Organization.

Finnish paper companies such as Stora Enso and UPM-Kymmene have closed mills to improve profitability and have warned they would have to make further job cuts if the duty issue is not resolved soon.

"I am really afraid that in the beginning of next year the trade of round timber (from Russia) will end. We don't have much more time," Vanhanen said."


All they want is cheap wood from Karelia and Viborg.We where selling it to them almoast for free for a long time,with Filnland inspectors in places of wood resorce productions,and their didnt really care ont seroius level about forests lefted devastied,UNTIL we announsed increase of wood export duties up to 400 %.And since duty will greatly rise,develpopment of wood and paper production will grown in Russia,and fall in Finland.

I,personally live in Sankt-Peterburg,and have "dacha" (small house) in Lyaipesuo villadge under Viborg,and every week i see trains and trucks with sh!tloads of wood moving towards Finland border.

and more:
http://www.forestindustries.fi/juurinyt/Ajankohtaista/Pages/ImportsofRussianwood-FactsFigures.aspx

"The export duty levied on Russian roundwood timber – excepting birch timber with a diameter less than 15 cm and aspen – was increased from 10 euro to at least 15 euro per cubic metre from April 1, 2008. A further increase to at least 50 euro per cubic meter is scheduled for the beginning of 2009."

[Jippo]

Alexandr, what does all that have to do with garbage? These are two seperate things: buying wood and giving aid are not related.

But if that is how much you appreciate help you are given, just please tell and I will write my representative and ask him to stop such help to Russia. We will keep our money and do something that helps us instead of you. You on the other can by all means keep living in knee deep garbage if you like it, as far as I'm concerned.

[Xaito]

I believe the problem is twofold.

First, Russia is a developing country. Building a decent infrastructure would be an important task but money is spent on boosting economic growth instead. Unfortunately the same seems to apply to environmental problems.
Second, Russian administration is inefficient and overcomplicated.

Of course, Karelia obviously isn't Moscow's main point of interest anyways.

this deserves a quote.
only intelligent post in this thread.

[Alexandr]

Jippo
Look at the main post article close.Its about Karelia region.Region,where forests where totally DEVASTIATED for supplying Finland with cheap wood.
We didnt heard any wories about Karelian nature from Finland - non in Soviet,non in modern Russian times,only from unoficcial "green" organizations,all we heard fron offcial Finland is "more,more,MORE cheap wood!"
And now this 23 000 bins comparing what Finlands and Soviet/Russians together did to Karelian nature?...We both guilty for greedy destruction of beatifull Karelia - we as produser,they as consumer.

[Thor]

Jippo
Look at the main post article close.Its about Karelia region.Region,where forests where totally DEVASTIATED for supplying Finland with cheap wood.
We didnt heard any wories about Karelian nature from Finland - non in Soviet,non in modern Russian times,only from unoficcial "green" organizations,all we heard fron offcial Finland is "more,more,MORE cheap wood!"
And now this 23 000 bins comparing what Finlands and Soviet/Russians together did to Karelian nature?...We both guilty for greedy destruction of beatifull Karelia - we as produser,they as consumer.
Russia is running out of timber? :D

Seriously, if you have a problem you regulate it like all other countries have done i.e. create a sustainable model, or move the production to entirely new regions. However since the Russian government directs it's measures toward foreign companies the indication is clearly that there isn't a problem as long as the timber is used for domestic purposes. Something that doesn't work out in modern day trade.

[Jippo]

Finnish sawmills are independent companies which make profit where they can, if wood is cheap in Russia they get it there. And there have been plenty of critics against the companies in Finland.

Finnish governement is basically worried about the jobs the sawmill industry offers, and thus negotiate about the export tax. That is their job to keep people employed. In itself that does not relate to Karelian woods. Situation is basically so that the factories ****ed up the forest deal with Russia by being greedy, and now government is trying to clean the mess they created and keep the factories up because there is a chance that the taxes now will cause very big economical problems in areas where sawmill industry is strong.

[Alexandr]

Russia is running out of timber? :D

Seriously, if you have a problem you regulate it like all other countries have done i.e. create a sustainable model, or move the production to entirely new regions.

Second of your advice shows how good you know subject - move production of Karelian Birch where?to Mars? :) It called "Karelian" Birch simlply becouse thats unical wood thats taking place only there.
And first your advice we are folloving actually now - dutys will rized from 10 to 50 euro in this year,export will scrumbled,inner development and cleaning dumps for re-production started.
Thanks anyway :roll:

and PS - fvck WTO,we never gonna go to it.Just telling them "yea,fro sure,but come tommorow,guys,we will be ready"

[Alexandr]

And,guys,i must add - you simply dont understand what bins and what dumps this deal about.Thats not little street bins,thats bins mounted on 6x trucks,for cleaning giantic dumps,wich are taking place where forests was.Thats they way to clean thouse oceans of trash,clean land,and re-produce forests on places where dumps was, growing new trees.
And thats smart move from both countries - development wtih long-time profit,aside of what we did earlier.But it has nothing to do about "love to nature",non from our,non from Finland side.
Just smart biusness,Finland will get theyr profits in current trade for sure.If they are so nature-lovers,where they was before with deals like this,before rize of dutyes from 10 to 50 euro was announsed?

[Thor]

Second of your advice shows how good you know subject - move production of Karelian Birch where?to Mars? :) It called "Karelian" Birch simlply becouse thats unical wood thats taking place only there.
And first your advice we are folloving actually now - dutys will rized from 10 to 50 euro in this year,export will scrumbled,inner development and cleaning dumps for re-production started.
Thanks anyway :roll:
1) I doubt birch is an overall major business component 2) I doubt that there are any unique features with karelian birch that can't be find elsewhere in the same or similar types. It for one looks very similar to masur birch. 3) Birch is also a very rapidly growing tree that drains the ground of nutrition from other trees. It can hardly ever create a long-term deforestation problem. In fact birches are often seen as a nuisance here.


and PS - fvck WTO,we never gonna go to it.Just telling them "yea,fro sure,but come tommorow,guys,we will be ready"
Feel free to take an Economics class.

[pacifist]

I guess they have to set up more eucalyptus plantations to Uruguay now.

[Wall]

If they are so nature-lovers,where they was before with deals like this,before rize of dutyes from 10 to 50 euro was announsed?
Finland have been helping Russia in issues like this many years..

[Alexandr]

1) I doubt birch is an overall major business component 2) I doubt that there are any unique features with karelian birch that can't be find elsewhere in the same or similar types. It for one looks very similar to masur birch. 3) Birch is also a very rapidly growing tree that drains the ground of nutrition from other trees. It can hardly ever create a long-term deforestation problem. In fact birches are often seen as a nuisance here.

1) yes it is - in Karelia and Viborg regions (around 80 % of total region budgets) and as part of Finland industry overall.
2)and 3 )There are no such size of birch forests anywhere in world,as in Karelia.And only there massive terretories with ONLY birch trees,not mixed with others.And way they was cutted,and the way land was left,gives no chanse for natural re-production with out serious cleaning of land.
Im driving every week there and see it by my own eyes.

[Jippo]

If they are so nature-lovers,where they was before with deals like this,before rize of dutyes from 10 to 50 euro was announsed?

I wonder where: :roll:

http://www.environment.fi/default.asp?contentid=250908&lan=en

^and that is just one example....

[Jippo]

2)and 3 )There are no such size of birch forests anywhere in world,as in Karelia.

Check out the other side of the border too. It's not like it climate and soil suddenly changes when you cross the border. Actually there is plenty of birch forests in Sweden too. :)

[Alexandr]

I wonder where: :roll:

http://www.environment.fi/default.asp?contentid=250908&lan=en

^and that is just one example....

well,that no altruistic examle,too,becouse holydays in Piter - is a place where hordes of beaslty drunken Finns like to fall to rivers of sity or Finsky Zaliv waters. :)

[Jippo]

Sometimes I really have to wonder why we bother for you lot.

[smalandian]

In fact birches are often seen as a nuisance here.

I'm not so sure..maybe in north Sweden but not in south.

Land-owners down here in småland was a bit too effective in the 70's, to remove all small birch trees for the benefit of pine. (Even in wetlands or at least areas with soil characteristics close to wetlands).The consequence of this has been that there is a shortage of birch here now.