Mixed views on Saudi interfaith forum

[LaoSexMachine]

Mixed views on Saudi interfaith forum


By Christopher Landau
BBC religious arrairs correspondent, Madrid


A major gathering of the world's religious leaders has called on governments to combat the association between religion and terrorism and promote constructive dialogue between those of religious faith. In a communique issued at the end of the conference in Madrid, religious leaders affirmed their shared concern for family life and the environment, and urged the United Nations to hold a special session on dialogue between religions and cultures.
The World Conference on Dialogue was the personal initiative of the King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and organised by the Saudi-based Muslim World League.
Critics have challenged the forum's organisers on the lack of female speakers and the absence of any Jewish delegates from Israel.
'New page'
In spite of such criticisms, the gathering remained unique in its scope, with Catholic priests rubbing shoulders with Buddhist monks, Islamic leaders and Jewish rabbis as well as those of several other faiths.



This conference is a very strong signal, from the top, that the true faith of Islam is about peaceful coexistence
Tony Blair, former UK Prime Minister
King Abdullah began the conference by telling delegates that he brought them a message from a meeting of Islamic leaders last month.
He said it was "a message that declares that Islam is the religion of moderation and tolerance, a message that calls for constructive dialogue among followers of religions, and a message that promises to open up a new page for mankind, in which concord will replace conflict".
Criticism
Also present was former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who recently launched his own inter-faith foundation.
In a BBC interview, Mr Blair said that the conference was of "tremendous significance" given that it was initiated by the Saudi king.
"For many people round the world who are uncertain about what their relationship with Islam should be, who may often think that there are people within Islam who are hostile to those of other faiths who don't believe in peaceful co-existence - this conference is a very strong signal, from the top, that the true faith of Islam is about peaceful co-existence," Mr Blair said.
Some of the great religious divides in today's world were conspicuous in their absence from the conference agenda.
Deliberations were tightly controlled, with some delegates expressing frustration that were was little opportunity for open debate.
There was no formal session dealing with the Middle East peace process - discussions became heated when delegates raised whether there could be effective dialogue between Muslims and Jews.
'Photo opportunity'
Although there were many Jewish delegates present, the published list of those invited to the conference listed no Israeli residents.
Rabbi David Rosen, chairman of the international Jewish committee for inter-religious consultations, was invited in an American capacity - though he is an Israeli citizen.
"If there's to be a serious engagement with the Jewish people then it has to involve Israeli religious leadership substantially and centrally," he said.
The rabbi added that he was attending the conference to support a process, which he hoped would lead to meetings involving Israeli Jewish leaders inside Saudi Arabia.
"If it doesn't do that, it's just another photo opportunity," he said.
Mixed views
The role of women in religious leadership - and at the conference - was also raised.
Of the several hundred delegates, only a tiny proportion were women, and some delegates complained that no women were due to speak from the platform during the three-day meeting.
Dr Mekia Nedjar, a female Muslim delegate from Spain, was a late addition to the conference programme, and her inclusion was met with warm applause.
This conference was unprecedented as a Saudi initiative, and has largely been met with optimism by those attending.
But delegates have mixed views about whether the meeting will lead on to a concrete progress that builds better relationships between the world's religious faiths.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7515495.stm


PDF
http://www.world-dialogue.org/english/english.htm

http://www.world-dialogue.org/english/invities.pdf

[Calanen]

More puff piece and Al-Taqiyaa for the benefit of misguided infidels, like the 'Islamophobia' campaign in the UK.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ndtA-H_-rdA

[wigon]

I fail to see what the problem was with this interfaith dialog program sponsored by the Saudis. Can you be a bit more detailed in why this was bad? It sounds to me like it was a fairly good success aside from a few minor issues.
I think what you fail to understand is that interfaith dialog is about DIALOG and not debate. Anyone going to such a conference has to know this. Only when relations have been established and nurtured with trust and respect in one another can debate occur. It is not for everyone and really only people who are able to control their emotions and religious ferver should go to such conferences. In essence it is something that takes many months to bear fruits and not just one big party over a weekend conference where everyone sings kumbaya together and wave peace signs. It just doesn't work that way.

Wigon

[Calanen]

King Abdullah began the conference by telling delegates that he brought them a message from a meeting of Islamic leaders last month.
He said it was "a message that declares that Islam is the religion of moderation and tolerance, a message that calls for constructive dialogue among followers of religions, and a message that promises to open up a new page for mankind, in which concord will replace conflict".


The reason I see this as Al Taqiyya, is because there is NO tolerance at all within Saudi Arabia of other religions. So it's just more PR spin that we give undeserved credibility to by attending.

[wigon]

Really? I went to church at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. I also went to a church outside the compound that while not officially sanctioned, was not shut down.

Wigon

[Calanen]

Really? I went to church at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. I also went to a church outside the compound that while not officially sanctioned, was not shut down.

Wigon

You could go to Church in a US military base, and found a church somewhere nearby as well. This makes Saudi Arabia the beacon of religious tolerance in the Middle East. You are such an Islamic Apologist - you should get a position on the Saudi Royal PR team.

Did you happen to mention to our readers that the crime of apostasy, carries the DEATH PENALTY in Saudi Arabia?

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=4FBA416ABC8805C2802569A600603109


Or that Christians are arrested for, being Christians?


April 25, 2005, 7:52 a.m.
Kingdom’s Religious Wrongs
The religious tyranny in Saudi Arabia is not just Saudis’ businnes.

By Nina Shea Before boarding his flight to Crawford to meet with President Bush Monday, Saudi Arabia�s Crown Prince Abdullah presided over the arrest of 40 Pakistani Christians on Friday. Their crime? The Pakistanis were caught praying in a private home in the capital Riyadh in violation of the state�s strictly enforced religious law that bans all non-Muslim worship.

As the State Department has determined (http://web.archive.org/web/20060220011744/http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/), there is no religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and everyone there, Muslim or not, must obey the rules of the extreme sharia of the kingdom�s established religion, the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

The Saudi state indoctrinates its nationals from an early age in the Wahhabi ideology of zero tolerance for the �other.� Government textbooks and publications teach that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. The state teaches a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treats the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avows that the Muslim�s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel.

Though the persecution of the Pakistani Christians is a dramatic example, they and the other non-Muslims among the quarter of the kingdom�s population who are foreign workers are not the only ones to suffer from the denial of religious freedom. Saudi Arabia�s nationals, by law Muslim, find that a broad range of their freedoms are limited because of the state�s monopoly on religious expresssion.

For example, Muslims who follow the Sufi and Shiite traditions are viewed as heretical dissidents and viciously condemned and discriminated against by the state. Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi ministry of Islamic affairs explicitly asserts in publications Freedom House has acquired, they �should be killed.� Muslims who object to even particular tenets of Wahhabism, such as advocates of greater religious tolerance, also are viewed as the �other� and condemned as �infidels.�

Under Saudi law, such �blasphemers� and �apostates� from Islam can be sentenced to death.

Political reformers, too, are crushed on religious grounds. Three Saudi professors have now languished for over a year in prison after proposing that the country adopt a written constitution. Among other charges, their terminology was denounced as un-Islamic or �Western.� State publications condemn democracy itself as un-Islamic. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by �infidel� legislated law, rather than Wahhabi-style Islamic law.

A direct consequence of there being no religious freedom is that every Saudi woman is forced by the state to conform to Wahhabi religious edicts restricting dress, transportation, movement, due-process rights, and the ability to participate in civic life.

The expansion of civil and political freedoms in the kingdom, therefore, hinges on religious freedom.

Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks — and the discovery that two thirds of the hijackers were Saudis — Saudi state ideology has become a matter of U.S. national security. As bad as it is that Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia�s state religion, even worse is that it is the Saudi government�s aim to propagate it and have it replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam worldwide, including within the United States. Earlier this year, Freedom House�s Center for Religious Freedom released a report (http://web.archive.org/web/20060220011744/http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/�http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-01-28.htm�) based on a year-long study of the radically intolerant Wahhabi ideology contained in documents spread, published, or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and found in the United States.

In one example, a publication for the �Immigrant Muslim� bearing the words �Greetings from the Cultural Department� of the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, D.C., gave detailed instructions on how to �hate� the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel. The opening fatwa of another a book distributed by the embassy that was published by the Saudi air force responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels.

The Saudi state cleric�s reply emphatically rebukes the Muslim cleric: �He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.�
Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia�s extremist

Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of �freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.�

The Saudi state�s propagation of Wahhabi extremism is more than hate speech; it is a totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence. The fact that this ideology is being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government demands President Bush�s urgent attention in today�s conversations with Prince Abdullah. With his remarkable State of the Union address that challenged Saudi Arabia to democratize, the president turned a new page in U.S. policy. Some in American policy circles argue that religious freedom, however, is too sensitive to raise. It's too important not to; the first topic on the president�s agenda should be the expansion of religious freedom in the kingdom — for Muslims, as well as the captive Christians.

— Nina Shea is the director of Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom (http://web.archive.org/web/20060220011744/http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/).

http://web.archive.org/web/20060220011744/www.nationalreview.com/comment/shea200504250752.asp

[wigon]

Apologist? No. That was just my experience in Saudi a long time ago just as your little article is dated back to several years ago. Is it right what the Saudi government did? No. But hell, alot of "civilized' governments believe that America commits horrific human rights abuses every day. You don't believe me? Check out that same website for Amnesty International and look at the section on the United States. Hint: Its very long. My main point is whether all Muslim countries are like Saudi Arabia. The answer is quite simply: No. Again, if you want to continue to believe that Salafis/Wahhabis are the "TRUE" Muslims and just persist in ignoring the diversity in Islamic thought, then hey that is your right to do so. All you are doing is championing Al-Qaeda as the true reps of Islam. They should pay you for your services. What I advocate is extreme vigilance on such groups and individuals, but while also developing extremely good understandings of Islamic theologies within our intelligence communities. Otherwise we need to openly advocate total war with all of Islam and openly advocate genocide. Why drag it out if that is the ultimate logical conclusion from you seem to advocate? It's only a matter of time before more Muslim countries get nukes. Pakistan may soon go Jihad on us.... why are we waiting? Kill 'em all!!! That's the logical social darwanist approach. You can't argue with science. It is mightier then God if you are an athiest.... much mightier.

Wigon

[INAT]

Apologist? No. That was just my experience in Saudi a long time ago just as your little article is dated back to several years ago. Is it right what the Saudi government did? No. But hell, alot of "civilized' governments believe that America commits horrific human rights abuses every day. You don't believe me? Check out that same website for Amnesty International and look at the section on the United States. Hint: Its very long. My main point is whether all Muslim countries are like Saudi Arabia. The answer is quite simply: No. Again, if you want to continue to believe that Salafis/Wahhabis are the "TRUE" Muslims and just persist in ignoring the diversity in Islamic thought, then hey that is your right to do so. All you are doing is championing Al-Qaeda as the true reps of Islam. They should pay you for your services. What I advocate is extreme vigilance on such groups and individuals, but while also developing extremely good understandings of Islamic theologies within our intelligence communities. Otherwise we need to openly advocate total war with all of Islam and openly advocate genocide. Why drag it out if that is the ultimate logical conclusion from you seem to advocate? It's only a matter of time before more Muslim countries get nukes. Pakistan may soon go Jihad on us.... why are we waiting? Kill 'em all!!! That's the logical social darwanist approach. You can't argue with science. It is mightier then God if you are an athiest.... much mightier.

Wigon

Well Salafis may not be the "true' Muslims that you speak of but when they fight the Jihad the "true" Muslims are nowhere to be heard.Why is Islam not
standing up and saying you Wahabis are nuts and why are they not marginalized in Islamic society.Are "true" Muslims those that attend anti-Western places of worship and listen to the imam go on and on about the West.When we in the West come in cotact with Islam it is the"bad" Islam rather than the "good".The "true" Muslims need to hire a PR firm because they are not standing up and saying we do not accept this.Islam needs to reform itself to modern times just like every other religion has done.

[JJC]

I once heard that U.S. troops stationed in places like Kuwait and Riyad are instructed to avoid showing their crosses in public and even on bases, so not to offend the local populations. Is this true or a false rumor?

[Calanen]

Apologist? No. That was just my experience in Saudi a long time ago just as your little article is dated back to several years ago.

Three years ago, and nothing has changed.


Is it right what the Saudi government did? No. But hell, alot of "civilized' governments believe that America commits horrific human rights abuses every day.

Textbook Al Taqiyaa..oh yeah, well what about YOU THEN HEY! Im dealing with religions intolerance by Saudi Arabia and you wish to change the subject to the United States human rights record. Which is irrelevant in the contex of this discussion, just more obfuscation.


No. Again, if you want to continue to believe that Salafis/Wahhabis are the "TRUE" Muslims and just persist in ignoring the diversity in Islamic thought, then hey that is your right to do so.

That was not my argument at all. Wahabbis do have extensive influence because they fund the creation of mosques throughout the Western world. For every muslim to be anything, is ridiculous however.



All you are doing is championing Al-Qaeda as the true reps of Islam. They should pay you for your services.


I dont see how - more strawman argument. Because I am calling attention to any problem in the Islamic world, that means I have called all muslims Al Quada. Its just another version of the 'It's racist' or 'Islamophobe' argument.


What I advocate is extreme vigilance on such groups and individuals, but ina also developing extremely good understandings of Islamic theologies within our intelligence communities.

It would not be possible. It is really really hard. You seem to believe you have a good understanding, but you have absolutely not a clue. And the overwhelming evidence of jihad and the conquest of infidels by whatever means in textbooks throughout the Middle East, on any amount of Arabic talkshows, preached in mosques, in hidden documents circulated by some in the Islamic community - and you are still going on about how this is just some perversion of islam practised by a few people in Al Quada. The methods may differ - the aim - destruction of the west is far more widespread.



Otherwise we need to openly advocate total war with all of Islam and openly advocate genocide.


We do? And that is what you would like me to say too - so that any real point I have to make is obscured by some reference to the holocaust. Islam is a political doctrine that subordinates all those around it - wherever it holds power - this is what it does. That has really bad consequences for people who are not muslim in the West - but we have to explain away Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, as misunderstanders and not the 'true' Islam.


Why drag it out if that is the ultimate logical conclusion from you seem to advocate?

People love to speak for me. Im quite capable of saying what I want to myself. I believe that you need to keep Islamic immigration low enough in western countries so you do not get a critical mass through either immigration or demographics. Otherwise you will have sufficient muslims resorting to political islam to challenge the stability of the state and those around them. Wherever this has happened, there has been jihad and war. In every single case around the world. Every single one. Once there are sufficient numbers of muslims next to sufficient numbers of christians, hindus, whatever - there is conflict.


It's only a matter of time before more Muslim countries get nukes. Pakistan may soon go Jihad on us.... why are we waiting? Kill 'em all!!! That's the logical social darwanist approach.

You are just being ridiculous. I don't care what Pakistan does in Pakistan, subject to human rights abuses. But I will not have people coming to the West and attempting to subvert western institutions and beliefs, nor in having loyalties to outside influences instead of the state they live in. If muslims reject sharia, reject jihad, and accept the right to live side by side with infidels under infidel law, indefinitely...then they are welcome.



You can't argue with science. It is mightier then God if you are an athiest.... much mightier.



There was nothing scientific about what you said. It was just vitriolic diatribe.

[brainplay]

Again, if you want to continue to believe that Salafis/Wahhabis are the "TRUE" Muslims and just persist in ignoring the diversity in Islamic thought, then hey that is your right to do so. All you are doing is championing Al-Qaeda as the true reps of Islam. They should pay you for your services. What I advocate is extreme vigilance on such groups and individuals, but while also developing extremely good understandings of Islamic theologies within our intelligence communities. Otherwise we need to openly advocate total war with all of Islam and openly advocate genocide.

Why is it so hard for muslim group like the above posted to make declarations against violence for all people not just muslims? Even modern groups only give vague statements? Hopefully some of that "dialogue" will answer those questions. However, this looks more like a grass roots political lobby group which is going to push to make it look like they are the victims and the nasty bad Britons are cursed with Islamophobia. :roll:

[wigon]

Well Salafis may not be the "true' Muslims that you speak of but when they fight the Jihad the "true" Muslims are nowhere to be heard.Why is Islam not
standing up and saying you Wahabis are nuts and why are they not marginalized in Islamic society.Are "true" Muslims those that attend anti-Western places of worship and listen to the imam go on and on about the West.When we in the West come in cotact with Islam it is the"bad" Islam rather than the "good".The "true" Muslims need to hire a PR firm because they are not standing up and saying we do not accept this.Islam needs to reform itself to modern times just like every other religion has done.


Actually believe it or not, there are TONS of moderate Muslim groups standing up against terrorism and it is a damn good question that you ask because you need to divert that question to our media in the United States and the West in general. I am personally involved with several large Islamic organizations that are actively fighting against terrorism.
However at the same time their message is not clear-cut. They can not say that Jihad against Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan is wrong. Those countries were invaded and thus technically speaking Muslims have a duty to defend those lands. However what they argue is that the best offense is through 1. Islamicly appropriate means of military defense (not blowing yourself up or killing innocent civilians with IED's and VBE's) which means only attacking invading military targets .
We may not like it, but it is a valid arguement both according to Islamic Law as well as International Law. Now however what these groups put forth as an even better alternative is that Jihad can be waged in peaceful ways that include dawah towards the invaders (as was done to the Mongol hordes that ravaged early Islamic kingdoms) and the usage of the changed governments and laws to the advantage of Islam.
What they suggest is that Islamic scholars must analyze the intention of the invasion before issueing fatwas on Jihad. Is the intention to destroy Islam or oppress Islam? If not, then it may not be a matter of Jihad especially when the invaders are not intending to stay and colonize the country or make it part of their territory.
So there is alot of flexbility and critical thinking going on these days amongst more progressive Islamic scholars.

Read writings on terrorism in English by Turkey's most popular Islamic scholar, Fetullah Gulen. His organization in the US is called "The Institute for Interfaith Dialog" with another called "The Raindrop Foundation". Then you have the Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA) made up of the Naqushibandis. You've had excellent anti-terrorism messages put forth by the Zaytuna Foundation which has one of the top Islamic scholars in the U.S. (Shaykh Hamza Yussuf), and countless more smaller groups. Most Americans have never heard of these groups simply because the mainstream media refuses to cover their speeches and efforts against terrorism.

You might also read this article regarding even Salafis and former terrorists turning against Al-Qaeda type beliefs:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=138019

I had made a long list of non-US Muslim groups who were speaking out against terrorism, however I'm not sure where it is at the moment. If you like I can research that again and compile a new list.

My arguement is that what really matters more is not how many of these groups there are, but rather how good their arguments are against terrorism. Some do a good job, while others ....well they just plain suck.
That is why it is extremely important to understand the history of the idea of Jihad, how it was practiced early on in the religion of Islam, and how it has developed over many hundreds of years.



Wigon

[wigon]

I once heard that U.S. troops stationed in places like Kuwait and Riyad are instructed to avoid showing their crosses in public and even on bases, so not to offend the local populations. Is this true or a false rumor?

Probably true. It's the same reason why Muslims are told not to walk around wearing traditional Islamic clothing with the exception of women. Those women are not encouraged to wear the full black shadorah but rather just a simple Hijab and loose fitting clothing. Why? Because if Muslim men walked around all decked out in traditional Arab robes and stuff, they'd likely get their asses kicked. I did an experiment once and wore a traditional Iranian whool hat that wasn't Islamic, but looked clearly Middle Eastern while riding a city bus. I was shocked by the huge number of racist and hate filled comments made towards me. That was only a couple of years ago.
Bear in mind that also these are SOLDIERS with weapons.... Would you like Muslim soldiers in your country wearing religious symbols and in full uniform (and fully armed) parading around??? Probably not.
Its jut a matter of respect.
With that said, when I was in Egypt in 1997 with the US Army, they did not tell us to remove religious symbols on our necklaces. However such things are supposed to be under your uniform anyways even if you're here in America.


Wigon

[wigon]

Textbook Al Taqiyaa..oh yeah, well what about YOU THEN HEY! Im dealing with religions intolerance by Saudi Arabia and you wish to change the subject to the United States human rights record. Which is irrelevant in the contex of this discussion, just more obfuscation.


No it is entirely relevant. It puts things into perspective and context.
What I was demonstrating is that all of our countries have human rights issues. I quite clearly said that what they did was NOT right. But you whining about it or Bush whining about it or threating to crush them because they won't let Christians jump for Jesus is... not going to go over so well... People in general don't like larger more powerful nations telling them what they can and can't do. Would you like America telling Australia what you all can and can't do???
Now.... am I saying that we should do nothing and put our heads in the sand? Absolutely not. Again...what you seem to ignore is that I am advocating changing Salafi Islamic doctrine from within and through a good understanding of the people and ideologies we are dealing with rather then just gross assumptions and military threats.




That was not my argument at all. Wahabbis do have extensive influence because they fund the creation of mosques throughout the Western world. For every muslim to be anything, is ridiculous however.


Ah you distort what I said. I didn't say that every Muslim could be anything. There are very central core beliefs that rarely change. But the ciritcal issues of Jihad, women's rights, treatment of Dhimmis, etc... are issues that have extremely diverse ranges of opinions in the Islamic world amongst scholars. I fully acknowledge Saudi funding to Western mosques... But that is not so much the issue...the issue is the religious reading material and educational material (and Imams) that are brought into these mosques. That is where vigilance must be taken and creative means must be found to halt hate filled material from entering our countries.



I dont see how - more strawman argument. Because I am calling attention to any problem in the Islamic world, that means I have called all muslims Al Quada. Its just another version of the 'It's racist' or 'Islamophobe' argument.

Well it sure sounds like you are doing that from all your posts. Hey I call a duck a duck. If I am wrong then quit quacking like a duck and clarify yourself instead of making massive broad general statements about Muslims that are just plain ignorant.




It would not be possible. It is really really hard. You seem to believe you have a good understanding, but you have absolutely not a clue. And the overwhelming evidence of jihad and the conquest of infidels by whatever means in textbooks throughout the Middle East, on any amount of Arabic talkshows, preached in mosques, in hidden documents circulated by some in the Islamic community - and you are still going on about how this is just some perversion of islam practised by a few people in Al Quada. The methods may differ - the aim - destruction of the west is far more widespread.

Ok now my man, you are just sounding paranoid. Do you know what one of the first things I do when I go to a mosque? I ask to go to their library and I check out what they got without giving them a chance to hide anything. I have yet to find any "secret documents" or terrorist materials in any US mosque that I've been to. But maybe you are right. Maybe we're full of sleeper cells just waiting....and waiting.
Oh don't get me wrong...I know there are individuals and small groups that are likely out there waiting to commit an act of terror. But I also know that there are many more homegrown criminals who are doing acts of terror every single day on the streets of my great nation.
America's FBI has increasingly been doing a fine job of keeping tabs on suspected extremists. I got nooooo problem with that at all even if it means them tapping into the emails and phone calls of Americans as long as they got proper court warrants to do so that limits abuses of private information that has no bearing on terrorism.

Please tell me who is making all of these textbooks about conquering the infidels that you say are everywhere? I've found a few and generally they are from 2 countries. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
As far as I'm concerned, that is a managable problem if we target those foreign publishers and organizations responsible. The best way is to have their own governments shut them down. The 2nd best is to invoke economic sanctions if they refuse to halt shipments of such publications.
Laws can be passed banning such reading material entering the country if they are proven to openly advocate terrorist acts. This would likely be challenged, but if so regulations can be made regarding distribution so as to monitor who is buying the literature and how it is being distributed.
Its all about being creative. No need to use a blunt stick when a little brains is all you need to deal with fanatical propaganda.







We do? And that is what you would like me to say too - so that any real point I have to make is obscured by some reference to the holocaust. Islam is a political doctrine that subordinates all those around it - wherever it holds power - this is what it does. That has really bad consequences for people who are not muslim in the West - but we have to explain away Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, as misunderstanders and not the 'true' Islam.

Relax M8. Most "Islamic" countries have mostly secular governments and laws that are only loosely based upon Islamic law.
We don't have to explain away anything. You miss the whole point of what I do. The point is to work to help Muslims refute the extremists themselves. Pure and simple. We just give them a little covert financial help and the usage of our insanely powerful marketing know-how that we typically reserve for selling Coca-Cola and Nike shoes.





People love to speak for me. Im quite capable of saying what I want to myself. I believe that you need to keep Islamic immigration low enough in western countries so you do not get a critical mass through either immigration or demographics. Otherwise you will have sufficient muslims resorting to political islam to challenge the stability of the state and those around them. Wherever this has happened, there has been jihad and war. In every single case around the world. Every single one. Once there are sufficient numbers of muslims next to sufficient numbers of christians, hindus, whatever - there is conflict.

Ok if you say so. If you want you say is true...then the Mexicans are gonna take over America. VIVA LA RECONQUISTA!!! lol!



You are just being ridiculous. I don't care what Pakistan does in Pakistan, subject to human rights abuses. But I will not have people coming to the West and attempting to subvert western institutions and beliefs, nor in having loyalties to outside influences instead of the state they live in. If muslims reject sharia, reject jihad, and accept the right to live side by side with infidels under infidel law, indefinitely...then they are welcome.


That's funny, you seemed to care an awful lot about women's rights in Muslim countries. But no worries m8. We got laws in our Western nations that put people in jail when they do dumb stuff even if its based on their religious beliefs... kinda like terrorists being put in jail. Or Joe- Ahmed getting his ass beat by the police and thrown in jail for beating his wife...just like any other Joe who does the same thing regardless of race or religion.
As for forcing Muslims to essentially reject their relgion...um... sorry not likely to happen. But hey if Australians vote to kick out all the Muslims...whell ya know...that's your guys thing. Don't complain to me why your politicians are too wussy to do that. But what I can tell you is that trying to force Muslims already in our countries to reject their religion.... isn't going to happen. Again... as I repeat OVER AND OVER AND OVER... you don't create change without first showing repsect, and 2nd, learning and understanding their religion first from their spiritual perspective. From that deep understanding is where you can then slowly create change.
But if you want...yeah you can oppress Muslim beliefs in your country and give Al-Qaeda one hell of a fertile recruting ground as you are basically validating everything they are saying about the West oppressing Muslims in the world. Way to go!




There was nothing scientific about what you said. It was just vitriolic diatribe.
[/quote]
No man, not at all. Do you really want to get into a debate on social darwanism with a anthropologist? I promise you that I can give a absolutely rock solid logical defense of Spencerian style social darwanism that falls right into line with Micheavilian style political frameworks.
Now do I believe it? HELL NO! But I can show you quite clearly that, perhaps without even realizing it, that much of your ideas falls squarely into this realm of "might makes right" thinking that is extremely black and white in its logic.

If you like I can go on and on also about various theories concerning "fear of the others" that would describe your rationale and similar styles of thinking all through human history. Your manner of thinking is not new by any means. You follow an ancient manner of thinking and really demonstrate typical human psychology. It is almost amusing to me that in many ways your manner of thinking is quite similar to many Islamic extremists who likewise refuse to try and understand Westerners and Western beliefs. They think that all the knowledge they need comes from their Imams and Shaykhs...and not from independent thinking and outside research. Any outside data they do gather is only for the sole purpose of validating the preconceived answers that they have already decided upon. With such personality types often only powerful life experiences jolt them out of this mode of thinking. If you are lucky you won't need to have such a traumatic experience...but rather just relax and learn about the "other" that you fear... preferably from "the other" themselves.

The world my friend, is definitely not black and white.

Wigon

[Calanen]

No it is entirely relevant. It puts things into perspective and context.
What I was demonstrating is that all of our countries have human rights issues. I quite clearly said that what they did was NOT right.


It is again a variation of the 'Nobody's Perfect' flawed method of argument.




But you whining about it or Bush whining about it or threating to crush them because they won't let Christians jump for Jesus is... not going to go over so well...


Whining? Subject to human rights issues, they can do whatever they like. But setting up a conference which has as its headline that Islam is about religious tolerance, when it is called by the head of Saudi Arabia - is like Stalinist Russia calling for a conference on the benefits of capitalism.

And all this is really about is to present a more benign PR spin as to what they are doing, which some apologists amonst the Western world, are lapping up. As you were intended to do. It is no wonder there is so little respect for us in the Middle East when we are so easily and transparently manipulated.



People in general don't like larger more powerful nations telling them what they can and can't do. Would you like America telling Australia what you all can and can't do???


I don't care what they do - subject to human rights issues. But dont hold an inferfaith conference lecturing the west about religious tolerance, when your own backyard is a mess.


Again...what you seem to ignore is that I am advocating changing Salafi Islamic doctrine from within and through a good understanding of the people and ideologies we are dealing with rather then just gross assumptions and military threats.

This is naive in the extreme. They don't care what you think, or what you say. You are a western infidel.


Ah you distort what I said. I didn't say that every Muslim could be anything. There are very central core beliefs that rarely change. But the ciritcal issues of Jihad, women's rights, treatment of Dhimmis, etc... are issues that have extremely diverse ranges of opinions in the Islamic world amongst scholars.

Really. About as diverse as it gets is with the Turks, the only truly secular country (perhaps not for long) in the Islamic world.


I fully acknowledge Saudi funding to Western mosques... But that is not so much the issue...the issue is the religious reading material and educational material (and Imams) that are brought into these mosques. That is where vigilance must be taken and creative means must be found to halt hate filled material from entering our countries.

Good luck with that. And nobody reads this hate filled material?




Well it sure sounds like you are doing that from all your posts. Hey I call a duck a duck. If I am wrong then quit quacking like a duck and clarify yourself instead of making massive broad general statements about Muslims that are just plain ignorant.



This is ridiculous. If you read my posts, all of them, I have said many times, I dont say all muslims do anything. But you want to push my arguments into the realm of al quada.



Ok now my man, you are just sounding paranoid.

Anthropologist and armchair psychologist.


Do you know what one of the first things I do when I go to a mosque? I ask to go to their library and I check out what they got without giving them a chance to hide anything. I have yet to find any "secret documents" or terrorist materials in any US mosque that I've been to. But maybe you are right. Maybe we're full of sleeper cells just waiting....and waiting.

I can spam up the board with Islamic literature. Jut because you have been acting as Ace Ventura Pet Detective by going into Islamic libraries in mosques, doesnt mean it is not about. Hardly an investigation that the Yard would perform.


Oh don't get me wrong...I know there are individuals and small groups that are likely out there waiting to commit an act of terror. But I also know that there are many more homegrown criminals who are doing acts of terror every single day on the streets of my great nation.

This more strawman reasoning...nobodys perfect, moral relativism. There is a huge culture of jihad within Islam, and its coming for us in the west.


America's FBI has increasingly been doing a fine job of keeping tabs on suspected extremists. I got nooooo problem with that at all even if it means them tapping into the emails and phone calls of Americans as long as they got proper court warrants to do so that limits abuses of private information that has no bearing on terrorism.

Glad to hear it. They do it anyway, whether it is legal to do so or not. Who's going to stop them if nobody knows? And there has been massive support through Islamic charities for terror and terrorist organisations. And what about the Muslim brotherhood's jihad plan?



Please tell me who is making all of these textbooks about conquering the infidels that you say are everywhere? I've found a few and generally they are from 2 countries. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.


And who uses them? Muslims throughout the world. Including England, including in America, and in Egypt. I imagine they are here in Australia too - but we are a bit behind the times with this sort of thing.



As far as I'm concerned, that is a managable problem if we target those foreign publishers and organizations responsible. The best way is to have their own governments shut them down.


The textbooks are just the best examples of what I say the problem is. People like yourself and members of the islamic community say that what I believe is a problem in Islam is just me 'misunderstanding' what Islam actually says. So then I reference the textbook, and show that my misunderstanding as a simple infidel is precisely what the children are being taught in Islamic textbooks - and we move onto the next Al Taqiyaa - oh, thats just a marginal textbook only used in Saudi. Which its not.



The 2nd best is to invoke economic sanctions if they refuse to halt shipments of such publications.


Perhaps. They could bring better economic sanctions against us, re petroleum.



Laws can be passed banning such reading material entering the country if they are proven to openly advocate terrorist acts. This would likely be challenged, but if so regulations can be made regarding distribution so as to monitor who is buying the literature and how it is being distributed.
Its all about being creative. No need to use a blunt stick when a little brains is all you need to deal with fanatical propaganda.


They are not printing bomb manuals. But just that the whole world must be ruled by sharia, that infidels stand beneath muslims as dhimmis, and that infidel governments must be brought down through jihad.



Relax M8. Most "Islamic" countries have mostly secular governments and laws that are only loosely based upon Islamic law.


They do? Really. The only true secular government to my knowledge is Turkey. The rest are secular in name only, not in practice.


We don't have to explain away anything. You miss the whole point of what I do. The point is to work to help Muslims refute the extremists themselves.

No what you are doing is seeking to makereally good excuses for the problem, and being part of the slight of hand Spin Team that wants the West to stop noticing the jihadis or admit its a problem.




Pure and simple. We just give them a little covert financial help and the usage of our insanely powerful marketing know-how that we typically reserve for selling Coca-Cola and Nike shoes.


Im more with Robert Spencers approach.


Ok if you say so. If you want you say is true...then the Mexicans are gonna take over America. VIVA LA RECONQUISTA!!! lol!

The Mexicans might dominate certain areas in terms of population, but so what. No Catholic Mexican is ever going to have a jihad against America. No Mexican wants to install Catholic law as the dominant law of America. No Mexican wants other religions to be second class compared to Catholicism, nor are they willing to kill others in jihad to get there.



As for forcing Muslims to essentially reject their relgion...um... sorry not likely to happen. But hey if Australians vote to kick out all the Muslims...whell ya know...that's your guys thing.


So are you saying that it is their religion to install sharia and take over western governments? And how are you going to 'moderate' that.


Don't complain to me why your politicians are too wussy to do that. But what I can tell you is that trying to force Muslims already in our countries to reject their religion.... isn't going to happen.

We'll see how wussy we are. If you think Australians are 'wussy' - you must not have met many of us.



Again... as I repeat OVER AND OVER AND OVER... you don't create change without first showing repsect, and 2nd, learning and understanding their religion first from their spiritual perspective. From that deep understanding is where you can then slowly create change.


Forget that. The only thing I will respect is them adopting Turkish secularism, no jihad, no sharia, no death to the infidels and jihad. If they do that fine. If its their 'religion' to take over my country and install sharia...then get out.


But if you want...yeah you can oppress Muslim beliefs in your country and give Al-Qaeda one hell of a fertile recruting ground as you are basically validating everything they are saying about the West oppressing Muslims in the world.

Then again, the fear that if we seek to counter any islamic aggression and jihadis - the evil Al Quada boogie man might get us. Al Quada already wants to get us. Muslim beliefs are not oppressed - they can worship any way they want. But dont support jihad, dont support sharia in this secular country, and dont believe in overthrowing western beliefs and governments.


No man, not at all. Do you really want to get into a debate on social darwanism with a anthropologist? I promise you that I can give a absolutely rock solid logical defense of Spencerian style social darwanism that falls right into line with Micheavilian style political frameworks.

The only social darwinism that I see is that practised in the Islamic world, continuous intolerance for anything different from it. And you think that by appeasing them they are going to respect us?.


Now do I believe it? HELL NO! But I can show you quite clearly that, perhaps without even realizing it, that much of your ideas falls squarely into this realm of "might makes right" thinking that is extremely black and white in its logic.

Might makes right huh? Do I care what the Hindus do? Or the Sikhs? If any of them were calling for jihad or the installation of sharia law then they would be on my list too. Any muslim that rejects sharia law, and agrees with the right of infidels to have their infidel government and live side by side with infidels indefinitely - they are welcome here. Anyone who wants to tear down our freedoms, institutions, beliefs, religious tolerance - and have jihad, then get out.



If you are lucky you won't need to have such a traumatic experience...but rather just relax and learn about the "other" that you fear... preferably from "the other" themselves.



That's great. Re-string your guitar and play another kumbaya my lord round, while the jihadis keep recruitng, protesting, subverting.

Your circular argument means that nothing can ever be a problem - because anything that is noticed is a result of irrational fear. That cannot be right. For me, there is not fear - just a fire that has to be put out, or left to burn somewhere else, and not where I live.

[gaijinsamurai]

I once heard that U.S. troops stationed in places like Kuwait and Riyad are instructed to avoid showing their crosses in public and even on bases, so not to offend the local populations. Is this true or a false rumor?

I was in Saudi Arabia in 1991 with the Marine Corps and Kuwait in 2000 with the Army, and based on my experience, it was true then. Also, one of my friends, who was Jewish, was "strongly advised" to change his religion to "Catholic" on his dog tags.

[wigon]

It is again a variation of the 'Nobody's Perfect' flawed method of argument.
Wrong. It is about like I said... putting things into context. Context is kinda important in understanding things don't you agree?




Whining? Subject to human rights issues, they can do whatever they like. But setting up a conference which has as its headline that Islam is about religious tolerance, when it is called by the head of Saudi Arabia - is like Stalinist Russia calling for a conference on the benefits of capitalism.


You know you are absolutely right! GOD DAMN THEM COMMIE ARAB SONSOFBIATCHES! HOW DARE THEY ATTEMPT TO HAVE DIALOG WITH OTHER RELIGIONS!!! WE GOTTA GET TOUGH BEFORE THEY START DOING ANYMORE PEACEFUL THINGS!!!!!
So how we gonna punish them bubba? Make some more cartoons to piss 'em off? Yeah that'll learn'em good! Hells yeah!




And all this is really about is to present a more benign PR spin as to what they are doing, which some apologists amonst the Western world, are lapping up. As you were intended to do. It is no wonder there is so little respect for us in the Middle East when we are so easily and transparently manipulated.


Damn it... again you and Edward Said are right. Oh wait... no I forgot... Edward Said accused anthropologists as being "the hand maidens of imperialism and colonialism." LOL! Do you not think I realize that this is not a form of propaganda? Thats fine with me. What I am more interested in is who the Islamic scholars are who participated. Whatever the official tagline is doesn't matter to me... it's whether something of subtance was accomplished and whether true long lasting dialog was developed which will continue. That my friend is how you make change.





I don't care what they do - subject to human rights issues. But dont hold an inferfaith conference lecturing the west about religious tolerance, when your own backyard is a mess.


You mean kinda like how my country invaded another country and spent billions of money when our country has a collapsing economic infrastructure due to overzelous de-regulation and greed in our banking sector and skyrocketing healtcare and higher education costs???
What's the Bible say? Something like "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

Cast that stone brother! Don't listen to Jesus Christ cuz ya know Muslims respect Jesus as well. That should tell you something.



This is naive in the extreme. They don't care what you think, or what you say. You are a western infidel.


Actually, no they usually quickly stop calling me a kafr when I show respect to their religion and to them. Once I show genuine knowledge and interest in their beliefs, they treat me pretty damn nicely except for a few, who much like yourself, refuse to think about anything I'm saying forcing me to repeat myself over and over.



Really. About as diverse as it gets is with the Turks, the only truly secular country (perhaps not for long) in the Islamic world.

Secular???? Whew... ya need to study up on current Turkish politics. You do know that they have an Islamist party in power right? You do know that they still have a significant number of devout Muslims and a growing rise in Islamic practice right? Yes the founder of their modern country based their current constitution profoundly upon secularism. However that is slowly being chipped away. They have most definitely NOT lost their Islamic identity. Also keep in mind that if anyone says ANYTHING bad about Ataturk, they can be put in prison for a very long time. YAY DEMOCRACY!






This is ridiculous. If you read my posts, all of them, I have said many times, I dont say all muslims do anything. But you want to push my arguments into the realm of al quada.

Yup. Because you keep making their arguements for them regarding how powerful and overwhelming they are and how dangerous the Muslims are to the West in that they are working together to destroy Western democracy and culture.





Anthropologist and armchair psychologist.

Ah well, most psychologists do like arm chairs. Ya know all this time working in interfaith dialog, developing dialog with Salafis, as well as working with troubled teens and being a Vice President on a school board really has allowed my practice of psychology to get rusty. Truth be told I only have a BA in Psychology and can not legally practice as a "psychologist." However its just fine if I use it ever day for free. I won't charge you a penny, I swear!





I can spam up the board with Islamic literature. Jut because you have been acting as Ace Ventura Pet Detective by going into Islamic libraries in mosques, doesnt mean it is not about. Hardly an investigation that the Yard would perform.

Well the lads at Scotland Yard do a fine job I'm quite sure, but I'm not in law enforcement. I'm in the business of understanding people which makes me curious why you are so fearful and hateful towards Muslims.
I can't use the same psychological techniques that I use on Muslims because quite frankly, I have no clue what your core beleif system is. With extremists its Islam. I have a basis from which to develop a dialog. But for you, without knowing your deepest spiritiual (or philosophical) driving core of belief, I can't really get to understand you very well aside from the bantering we're doing now which is actually getting pointless because our debates are getting so damn long that nobody is reading them.
I would actuallly welcome you to post more Al-Qaeda propaganda. That would be more educational for the reader if I can refute who the person is ranting about.




This more strawman reasoning...nobodys perfect, moral relativism. There is a huge culture of jihad within Islam, and its coming for us in the west.


Hahaha. Wow... sorry man but that is really hypocritical. You are using what you yourself call "strawman reasoning".
I said and I quote: "Oh don't get me wrong...I know there are individuals and small groups that are likely out there waiting to commit an act of terror. But I also know that there are many more homegrown criminals who are doing acts of terror every single day on the streets of my great nation."

That my friend is not morale relativism. That is making a risk judgment and value judgement like every human in the world does every day of their life. It is me saying, "Ya know what... street violence is a bigger threat to me then some wacko terrorists blowing me up. I kinda wanna fix my country before trying to fix the whole Middle East."

Hey Australia isn't bankrollling this whole insane war. yeah ya got troops here and there, but overall...not much from your pocket book compared to what Americans are forking out every day while we're currently experiencing a massive roll of bank failures...the latest in which President Bush is bailing out with 300 billion dollars that come from God knows where....oh and without any conditions regarding them cleaning up their insane and illegal usury/predatory lending schemes.
So again... strawman arguement? Morale relativism??? No. Its called context my friend....CONTEXT. Its called making a value judgement about what is important and what is LESS important. I like to think for myself rather then jumping on some asanine "KILL A HAJI FOR MOMMIE!" bandwagon of fear and paranoia. If terrorism is your main concern then hey that is your call and you roll with that. I just happen to think that you are acting out of willful ignorance and engrossed in fear propaganda.
Al-Qaeda apparently has put the fear of Allah into you.
So yeah no Kumbayah for you.




Glad to hear it. They do it anyway, whether it is legal to do so or not. Who's going to stop them if nobody knows? And there has been massive support through Islamic charities for terror and terrorist organisations. And what about the Muslim brotherhood's jihad plan?


Yeah obviously you've never sat in on a debate about charity donations in your local mosque. They are so damn paranoid here about going to prison for sending donations ANYWHERE that they don't send out donations and tell their members that they have to take their own risks if they wish to do that. Cuz apparently you see to know that Islamic charities are linked to terrorism. Correct me if I am wrong, and if so can you please name to me some reputable Islamic charities with no links to terrorist organizations because my Muslim friends want to know.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood... damn which branch are we talking about? That's a massive organizaton. I honestly don't worry about them. Let Egypt take care of that issue. If their corrupt-ass government started providing the same social services that the brotherhood offers, then they probably wouldn't have much of a problem with them.




And who uses them? Muslims throughout the world. Including England, including in America, and in Egypt. I imagine they are here in Australia too - but we are a bit behind the times with this sort of thing.


Yes and I illustrated ways of dealing with that problem. There are other ways but I won't discuss those on a public forum.



The textbooks are just the best examples of what I say the problem is. People like yourself and members of the islamic community say that what I believe is a problem in Islam is just me 'misunderstanding' what Islam actually says. So then I reference the textbook, and show that my misunderstanding as a simple infidel is precisely what the children are being taught in Islamic textbooks - and we move onto the next Al Taqiyaa - oh, thats just a marginal textbook only used in Saudi. Which its not.


So now you're saying that all Muslims are liars and are practicing Taquaiya (or however you want to spell it) ?? Correct me if I misunderstand you.
In tun, I will correct your misunderstanding of what I say. You have a good understanding of typical extreme Salafi teachings. That is what you are concentrating on. What I am saying is that there are ALOT more other interpretations. It is NOT for me to say whether they are right or wrong. I DON"T CARE! All I care about is promoting peaceful and less hate-filled interpretations that can still claim traditional Islamic roots.
With strong theological roots such interpretations can be promoted more readily and Salafism can be countered. Is that too hard to understand?



Perhaps. They could bring better economic sanctions against us, re petroleum.


Let them. It'll be really hard on us, but it will lead to a rapid transition to alternative energies and fuels. In the long run it will hurt them vastly more then it would hurt us. No dependence on their oil = vastly less profits for them. Then guess what? They will have to learn of new ways of making money like the UAE is doing. Ooops wait...they got sanctions against them...hmm...that would be a problem. for them.





They are not printing bomb manuals. But just that the whole world must be ruled by sharia, that infidels stand beneath muslims as dhimmis, and that infidel governments must be brought down through jihad.

Yes sir. I have read those texts and rants....and ya know what? They don't have a single damn organized plan for how they're going to accomplish that great miracle. Apparently Allah will show the way.
I've had lots and lots of debates with Muslims who rant about that stuff...and none of them have a clue on how to take over the world let alone a Western country or their own less-then islamic regimes in their home countries.




They do? Really. The only true secular government to my knowledge is Turkey. The rest are secular in name only, not in practice.


You seem to have money to blow. I recommend that you take a vacation to several Islamic countries within a wide geographic area. Go to Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and then Turkey. That should be a nice little eye opener for ya.




No what you are doing is seeking to makereally good excuses for the problem, and being part of the slight of hand Spin Team that wants the West to stop noticing the jihadis or admit its a problem.


Ah now who is putting words in who's mouth?
So please sir, explain what you suspect me of being. Please illuminate the world about who I truly am. If you can be so kind as to doing this, I can then better undestand the depths of your paranoia.





The Mexicans might dominate certain areas in terms of population, but so what. No Catholic Mexican is ever going to have a jihad against America. No Mexican wants to install Catholic law as the dominant law of America. No Mexican wants other religions to be second class compared to Catholicism, nor are they willing to kill others in jihad to get there.

Wow...you really don't know Mexican Americans do you. lol! Ever hear of MECHA? Or LA RAZA? They scare the bejeebus out of the white man here in America. They are all about taking back power from the white man and have in the past been highly militant with shootings and links to all kinds of criminal acts. But i'm safe cuz I'm brown.
But you are right...Mexicans won't install Catholic Law..however we have tons of politicians of all types who want to bring more Biblical Law into our nation's legal systems.




So are you saying that it is their religion to install sharia and take over western governments? And how are you going to 'moderate' that.
In some of the more radical interpretations of Islam, yes that is the goal. But they have no clue how to go about doing that. Go back and read their propaganda for yourself. They rant and rave, but never go into details. Because its a secret? No...because they have no details.



We'll see how wussy we are. If you think Australians are 'wussy' - you must not have met many of us.


Nah, ya all are just going all soft and liberal. But again that's not my concern. It's your country, so your problem.



Forget that. The only thing I will respect is them adopting Turkish secularism, no jihad, no sharia, no death to the infidels and jihad. If they do that fine. If its their 'religion' to take over my country and install sharia...then get out.

Again Turkey is not some perfect secular state. The military? Yes. The main ruling party? No. The people? They are all mixed but with many very religious people.
Again you need to spend time around Turkish practicing Muslims.




Then again, the fear that if we seek to counter any islamic aggression and jihadis - the evil Al Quada boogie man might get us. Al Quada already wants to get us. Muslim beliefs are not oppressed - they can worship any way they want. But dont support jihad, dont support sharia in this secular country, and dont believe in overthrowing western beliefs and governments.


Well then don't be so fearful and work with your local Islamic community in a respectful manner (as you would at someone's church) in promoting that idea....unless...they are all practicing Taqiyah!!!! (cue sinister music).





The only social darwinism that I see is that practised in the Islamic world, continuous intolerance for anything different from it. And you think that by appeasing them they are going to respect us?.


Who said anything about appeasement. People like yourself always totally misunderstand "Understanding your enemy and thus using that knowledge to coopt their belief systems" with appeasements. I never quite understood that.
but hey man if refusing to understand what I'm advocating is what makes you feel good, then you have that right to do that.



Might makes right huh? Do I care what the Hindus do? Or the Sikhs? If any of them were calling for jihad or the installation of sharia law then they would be on my list too. Any muslim that rejects sharia law, and agrees with the right of infidels to have their infidel government and live side by side with infidels indefinitely - they are welcome here. Anyone who wants to tear down our freedoms, institutions, beliefs, religious tolerance - and have jihad, then get out.

Get out or else what? Ah...thats where the MIGHT comes in. Majority vs. minority. Control over economic/political/military power.
What would you do to them personally if you could?



That's great. Re-string your guitar and play another kumbaya my lord round, while the jihadis keep recruitng, protesting, subverting.


How did you know I play the guitar? Hey that's a good song so don't knock it. Whoever said I ignore Al-Qaeda recruiting, protesting, and suberting. Didn't you mention something about a strawman before?



Your circular argument means that nothing can ever be a problem - because anything that is noticed is a result of irrational fear. That cannot be right. For me, there is not fear - just a fire that has to be put out, or left to burn somewhere else, and not where I live.

Exactly and that's why you call the fire department. When did I ever say that there is no problem and that all is perfect in Islam...and that its all roses with them? I love how you've worked so hard to pigeonhole me into the category of a naive hippie when you refuse to actually listen to what I was saying about directly addressing the very problems with fanatics that you are concerned about.

Instead this has turned into a whole crazy debate in which we are ignoring everything I'm saying and instead seem dead set on demonizing me and trying to delegitimize me by depiciting me as someone that I am not with beliefs that I do not believe. The more I tell you that I don't believe certain things, the more you seem to insist that I do. Fascinating. Almost identical to Islamic extremist behavior.
Anyhoo.... you can post whatever, nobody is reading all of this wasted typing so this particular thread has gotten too long and I'm stopping here as its not going anywhere. I'll respond only to short specific arguements. Oh and in advance I probably left words out misplled stuff, or accidentally typed in the wrong words in spots.... its 1am at night I'm too sleepy to check my response for errors. Good night/Good afternoon.

Wigon

Wigon

[Warlord]

Really? I went to church at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. I also went to a church outside the compound that while not officially sanctioned, was not shut down.

Wigon


Let's assume you're white, or at least European or a US citizen (caucasian). That in itself gets you some degree of respect, police refrain from doing what they normally do to people like you.

Try to be a Christian Indian or Filipino. Even a Christian Arab. You get lots of sh!t over there.

I've worked there for 11 years.

I've been chased by their muttawa for wearing a scapular (that's a Catholic necklace). I've been bombarded in the office for not converting to Islam after all those years.

One time, during prayer time when all the shops were closed, I was waiting outside minding my own business then this muttawa asked my why I wasn't in prayer, I told him I wasn't a Muslim. Then he told why wasn't I? I didn't answer. He asked me where I stayed, I told him I was staying in a hotel. Then he told me to go home. And he waited for me to leave.

11 years working there, I can say I was pretty much TOLERATED. But you were never ACCEPTED. There's a big difference.

Now, you've attended what and how many services outside the base or ARAMCO?

How many services were busted by the police that year?

In my apartment building alone, they busted one flat full of worshippers. Then what they did was raid all the flats belonging to expatriates in that building. Thankfully that time of the raid, I was still on vacation, only arriving two days later.

[Calanen]

Im not going to deal with most of the rubbish that was posted by wigon, except to say that my view on 'moderate' Islam is much the same as this one:



Is it possible for a “moderate” form of Islam to become an alternative to the totalitarian world-view infecting so many Muslims? Perhaps, but let us be clear about what this would mean. This would mean an Islam that is explicitly separated from political power. It would mean an Islam whose clerics renounce all attempts to impose its law by force. It would mean an Islam that (like modern Christianity) is open to critical self-reflection, whose thinkers examine the Koran as a set of stories, compiled and interpreted by men—and not the infallible word of God to be spread by the sword. It would mean an Islam that allows apostates to make their own decisions, and that tolerates no death threats against them. It would mean the explicit rejection—by Muslims—of State Islam, Islamic Law, and the pursuit of jihad. Such “moderate” Muslims will support the obliteration of Totalitarian Islam. The rest must witness the defeat of this poisonous ideology, and grasp the hopelessness of supporting it.


http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-winter/no-substitute-for-victory.asp

Good article, quite long - so not for the ritalin poster children that switch off after reading anything more than a sentence long and then reach for the Xbox.

[wigon]

I would agree that particular paragraph except I think the author is naive about that happening quickly. Look how many hundreds of years it took Christianity to "evolve."
Even today, especially here in the United States (and in growing Protestant fundamentalist movements in Latin America) we are seeing a push back towards literal interpretations of the Bible and the call for more religion in government and in our laws. Australia from my understanding is quite a bit more secular then the United States.
We in America, are still struggling with that issue.
Islam will take a long time to get to that stage as outlined in that paragraph. What I advocate is taking the first steps towards that change. By the way, self-reflection is actually one of the major parts of Tasawuuf (Sufism) doctrine. That is why I recommend that you check out some books by Fetullah Gulen if you are interested in a glmpse of what could be a bright future for the religion of Islam.

Wigon

[Mr.Flint]

Our Turkish members would "love" your admiration of Gulen...

[wigon]

I would hope so. Read his books (plenty translated to English) to see why they admire him. He's not a rabid Turkish Nationalist and is one of the most progressive Islamic leaders in the world today.

I should add that some Turks hate Fetullah Gulen on both sides of the secular/Islamic fence. They accuse him of either being TOO secular or TOO Islamic. Personally I judge him based on his public statements, his books, and his public fatwas... At any rate, there are many secular Turkish nationlists who are just plain idiots and who will go crazy over anyone who dares utter a word of support for the Kurds....nevermind that like 40% of the Turkish population is either Kurdish or half Kurdish.


Wigon

[DS73]

We may not like it, but it is a valid arguement both according to Islamic Law as well as International Law. Now however what these groups put forth as an even better alternative is that Jihad can be waged in peaceful ways that include dawah towards the invaders (as was done to the Mongol hordes that ravaged early Islamic kingdoms) and the usage of the changed governments and laws to the advantage of Islam.


Fantastic. So actually you:
1) comfirmed that there is such thing as jihad against "invaders". (that is "eliberation" efforts are guided not by national but religios instruments).
2) it can be violent (as opposed to peaceful), and violent religion founded straggle can be justified,
3) muslims do separate them self from the rest of the crowd and are looking for law and government advantages for them.
Thank you

I believe such believes you exposed is a clear "no-no" in Europe, and would cost your "permanent leave billet" from any state institution around here.
I wonder how it is in USA.

[DS73]

Wrong. It is about like I said... putting things into context. Context is kinda important in understanding things don't you agree?

Actually, no they usually quickly stop calling me a kafr when I show respect to their religion and to them. Once I show genuine knowledge and interest in their beliefs, they treat me pretty damn nicely except for a few, who much like yourself, refuse to think about anything I'm saying forcing me to repeat myself over and over.

Talking about context, why not to say directly that you have "genuine knowledge" because you re devoted muslim?
Because let admit it, you are.



Well the lads at Scotland Yard do a fine job I'm quite sure, but I'm not in law enforcement. I'm in the business of understanding people which makes me curious why you are so fearful and hateful towards Muslims.
Nice, pleace show examples of "fear" and "hate" towards muslims.
Just remind you Calanen is a lawyer, and as I see he can manage with words.



I can't use the same psychological techniques that I use on Muslims because quite frankly, I have no clue what your core beleif system is. With extremists its Islam. I have a basis from which to develop a dialog. But for you, without knowing your deepest spiritiual (or philosophical) driving core of belief, I can't really get to understand you very well aside from the bantering we're doing now which is actually getting pointless because our debates are getting so damn long that nobody is reading them.
What kind of BS in psychology are you then if you cann't deduce person believes from his words, actions?

Anyway there is no debates because unlike you Calanen actually posts facts.

[wigon]

LOL! Facts? In religion there are no facts. Am I Muslim? Now you are sounding like those damned apostate Salafis I deal with on Mr. Spencer's neocon forums who accuse me of the same thing. I say, PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) after talking about their prophet for the sake of Muslims reading what I type. I know they read what I type because they are supportive. Why? Because I support them in taking over the world? No. Because I am a human being like they are and actually approach them with love and respect as Jesus Christ and Lord Buddah taught. Ah I wish you knew me face to face. If you spent any time arond me, and met the wide range of people I associate with, you would see who I am. But sadly, the internet is very limited as far as getting to know somone. Anyone with ANY psychology degree (I don't care if it's a PhD) who claims to be able to figure someone out over the internet is FULL OF CRAP! Plain and simple. To truly understand someone, you need a wide range of knowledge and their case history to come to a conclusion as far as mental illness (which is what psychologists generally focus on). However even for determining personality type requries a detailed case study of the individual's interactions with others. What I do is quasi-experimental psychology. It is hit and miss and is based upon putting ideas out there and seeing what the reactions are. In such those who I correspond with are guinea pigs of a sort. Questions are tailored to elicity a specific response. Am I doing that now? No becaue Mr. Calanen is not by subject of study.... although he and yourself could be for future research if you are bold enough to tell me about yourself. Even if falsehoods, it still tells me informative data that either does or doesn't correlate with data from similar personality types. Again... it's all context dependent. The context that data is gathered in makes all the difference. If I was doing such a study I would take a very different approach in my dialog with both of you.

At any rate,
Calanen is certainly not a stupid person. I have no doubt that he may be a lawyer. When it comes to the topic of Australian criminal law, he would run me into the ground no doubt. However being a scholar of one particular legal area does not make one a scholar of Islamic law. What it does is make one (most often) highly biased towards a certain mode of legal thought. I am not saying, and never was saying that he is a bad man. I have respect for his intelligence. However we all have strong points and weak points in our areas of knowledge.
What are facts sir? In religion do you believe there are facts? In reality there is only faith!
Faith does not = facts except in the hearts of the believer. My job is to understand those hearts and their faith.

That is why I am a theist, which means I belive in God, but do not believe in organized religion. It allows me to understand people from a wide range of religious persepctives from a spirtiual and emotional viewpoint rather then just a purely academic understanding. That in and of itself seperates me from many fellow anthropologists who quite honestly hate me.

I am not loved by either liberal nor conservative. Only by people with open hearts and mind who are brave and innovative and know what needs to be done if we are to avoid a horrific genocide.


As for your general deductive rationale from my statements yes, you are somewhat correct, but you are looking at them out of context.
The conclusions you reached are no more and no less then most secular political organizations. If Australia's secular constitution is threatened and legal means fail to protect it, would you fight violently to protect it? I know I would do so to protect my American constitution. Why? Because I swore an oath to protect it when I joined the military. That oath does not stop when one leaves the military. It is for life and I uphold that as a patriot of my nation and a firm believer in my nation's constitution.
Now does that mean that much of what Muslims would like to see does not fall within that framework? Not at all. Most of it is compatible with Shariat Law. The rest that is not is again, subject to interpretation depending on the type of Muslim you are. That can range from radical and extremely literal interpretations all the way to very mystical and spiritual general interpretations of the spirit of the law found amongst most Sufi schools of thought. For them the spiritual aspect takes precedence over the literal/legal aspects. There has actually been volumes of texts written by scholars concerning Muslims living abroad.

There is nothing in Hadiths or in the Qu'ran saying that Muslims living in kafr nations must devote themselves to destroying those nations and making them Islamic. Should they do Dawah and try to convert people to Islam? Of coarse. But it is done by example and not by sabotage and terrorism. If Free people choose to become Muslim...then hey that's democracy. Are you afraid of true democracy? If so then you should move to another country. Am I afraid of the world becoming athiest? Nope. Catholic? Nope. Muslim? Nope. Why? Because as an anthropologist I know that the whole world will never become one religon (or non-religion). Culture is like bio-evolutionary science. Always new ideas are formed and challenge the status-quo. That is the nature of cultural evolution. To have fixed views is to be left behind in an ever-changing universe. This I also say to Muslims.

Wa' Salam Alekum

Wigon the Thiest

[DS73]

LOL! Facts? In religion there are no facts.


The thread wasn't about "religions". This thread is about actual hypocrisy of Saudi politics. It is about actual events and obviously all arguments should be supported by facts.

Interesting start would be how did you get into military compound in SA.

I ask because what you said is "strange".
For example trivial search on "cristianity in SA" gives beautiful link:
http://www.meforum.org/article/283
Written there correlates perfectly with stories I heard from engineers working there and in UAE.



Am I Muslim? Now you are sounding like those damned apostate Salafis I deal with on Mr. Spencer's neocon forums who accuse me of the same thing.
This is funny how you try to make my question "accusation".
This question is related to stated by you fact of "freely" visiting Cristian church on that particular military base and some obviously underground church somewhere else.
Your posts are inconsistent.



I say, PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) after talking about their prophet for the sake of Muslims reading what I type. I know they read what I type because they are supportive. Why? Because I support them in taking over the world? No. Because I am a human being like they are and actually approach them with love and respect as Jesus Christ and Lord Buddah taught.
Fantastic.
Especially bringing Buddah here.
I would be very fond if you show quotes of Lord Buddah (actually J.Christ will go too) where he taught "approaching with love and respect" individuals worshiping other religions.



Ah I wish you knew me face to face. If you spent any time arond me, and met the wide range of people I associate with, you would see who I am. But sadly, the internet is very limited as far as getting to know somone.
Lol. Another "Jegova witness". Not here please!!!
:cantbeli:



Anyone with ANY psychology degree (I don't care if it's a PhD) who claims to be able to figure someone out over the internet is FULL OF CRAP! Plain and simple.
? I even had to check it; I do post on the forum called "political discussions and rants", were people do express their believes and political views. You don't have to be Freud to fairly guess national background and believes of MP members.




To truly understand someone, you need a wide range of knowledge and their case history to come to a conclusion as far as mental illness (which is what psychologists generally focus on).
Now I do have to ask where did you get your BS?
For those blissed ones :):

Mental illnesses are study subjects for psychiatry.

Clinical psychology (pretty small branch of modern psychology) studies mental "distresses" and avoids as plague using the horrible ugly word "illness". Psychology is not medical, it is social science and studies not illnesses or even problems as such, but humans interactions. (Huge difference!)



What are facts sir? In religion do you believe there are facts? In reality there is only faith!
Again, keep your elfic preaching somewhere else. Here you would find believers in 1911 and ar15 (with variations) mostly. Pretty real "tools for faith" actually.
Great arguments btw.



That is why I am a theist, which means I belive in God, but do not believe in organized religion. It allows me to understand people from a wide range of religious persepctives from a spirtiual and emotional viewpoint rather then just a purely academic understanding. That in and of itself seperates me from many fellow anthropologists who quite honestly hate me.
Gem.
Actually I doubt that anybody would hate you, to ridicule is another thing.




I am not loved by either liberal nor conservative. Only by people with open hearts and mind who are brave and innovative and know what needs to be done if we are to avoid a horrific genocide.
Fantastic. Now who's horrific genocide you should avoid? and who are these"nor liberal nor conservative" people? Elusive "moderate muslims" that everybody talks about but never sees or hears from?



As for your general deductive rationale from my statements yes, you are somewhat correct, but you are looking at them out of context.
The conclusions you reached are no more and no less then most secular political organizations. If Australia's secular constitution is threatened and legal means fail to protect it, would you fight violently to protect it? I know I would do so to protect my American constitution. Why? Because I swore an oath to protect it when I joined the military. That oath does not stop when one leaves the military. It is for life and I uphold that as a patriot of my nation and a firm believer in my nation's constitution.
Nice. What I quoted and pointed up there is actual and serious threat to your American constitution. Protect it.
Also you are messing up ideological, national and religios issues (actually I find it interesting- are you Pak?).



Now does that mean that much of what Muslims would like to see does not fall within that framework? Not at all. Most of it is compatible with Shariat Law. The rest that is not is again, subject to interpretation depending on the type of Muslim you are. That can range from radical and extremely literal interpretations all the way to very mystical and spiritual general interpretations of the spirit of the law found amongst most Sufi schools of thought. For them the spiritual aspect takes precedence over the literal/legal aspects. There has actually been volumes of texts written by scholars concerning Muslims living abroad.
"

Religion is specifically and explicitly separated from state. That is the right to believe (or not) is the individual right, and no group can impose any religion on anybody else. That a person has right not only to join but also to leave any religious group. Any demand of "precedence" of religious believes over material aspects leads (and any muslim country is great example) to legal mess, social tension and economical instability. For example your son will do something illegal in saria but in a moment of trial he denounces his religion. What should you do?




There is nothing in Hadiths or in the Qu'ran saying that Muslims living in kafr nations must devote themselves to destroying those nations and making them Islamic.
Fantastic. Of course presented examples right in this forum, and most importantly the actions of muslim fundamentalists are pure "misinterpretation".

:roll: "we believe you"



Should they do Dawah and try to convert people to Islam? Of coarse. But it is done by example and not by sabotage and terrorism. If Free people choose to become Muslim...then hey that's democracy. Are you afraid of true democracy? If so then you should move to another country.
1. Muslim society (that is governed by saria laws) is intrinsically not democratic, and cann't become one. Period.

One of major features of democratic society (main strength actually) is the ability to change, to adapt in time to ever changing conditions.
And permanent "conflict of generations" for example is not weakness but it is important bonus for western societies.

2. I wouldn't mind a fair game. Muslims get right to preach here, cristians and C. in arab world. What about equality (the base of democracy remember?) of different religios groups, some compromise?
A? A?

[4X4Driver]

Our Turkish members would "love" your admiration of Gulen...

Of course he'd admire him..after all, he is (Gülen) only practicing al- Taqqiye at its best.

To many in the west (esp. to the Americans) Gülen is a "born again Christian" compared to AQ or the Saudi Wahabism, but for the secular Turkish state..he's worse than AQ cuz he's one sneaky bastard. This is how he gets his support... by continuesly compering himself with AQ..so ppl buys his version quicker.

Let's show wigon the true face of this creature..I'm sure he won't mind cuz these plans he has in his mind is for Turkey..and as long as it's not AQ style and presents no danger to US..he'll be OK with it..but for my country, he's an enemy who should be shot at sight.

This is his video about his plans for Turkey..unfortunately in Turkish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi3Z3qZ7Z4

..but here is the translation of it.

In 1999, footage was aired on Turkish television of sermons delivered by Fethullah Gulen to a crowd of followers, in which he revealed his aspirations for an Islamist Turkey ruled by shari'a as well as the methods that should be used to attain that goal. In the sermons, he said:


"You must move in the arteries of the system, without anyone noticing your existence, until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe, they [the followers] must continue like this. If they do something prematurely, the world will crush our heads, and Muslims will suffer everywhere, like in the tragedies in Algeria, like in 1982 [in] Syria… like in the yearly disasters and tragedies in Egypt. The time is not yet right. You must wait for the time when you are complete, and conditions are ripe, until we can shoulder the entire world and carry it… You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey… Until that time, any step taken would be too early - like breaking an egg without waiting the full 40 days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside. The work to be done is [in] confronting the world. Now, I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to you all - in confidence… trusting your loyalty and sensitivity to secrecy. I know that when you leave here - [just] as you discard your empty juice boxes, you must discard the thoughts and feelings expressed here."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php)


@ Wigon,

I've been reading your posts...I'll admit you're pretty good in the language you're using and I'm sure you impress a lot of ppl here, but when I came to the part that revealed your knowledge about Turkey, its system and demographics, I immediatelly saw how little you knew about my country(yet shamelesly accused others for not knowing enough about Turkey)..so if this is the level about the other things you post here...I say you're full of it and you shouldn't be taken serious.

Btw...I've lived in Saudi Arabia for six years too..so don't try anything on me about that.

[Calanen]

I immediatelly saw how liitle you knew about my country..so if this is the level about the other things you post here...I say you're full of it and you shouldn't be taken serious.

I don't take him seriously either, and neither would most people if I appeared against him in a public debate.

[wigon]

The thread wasn't about "religions". This thread is about actual hypocrisy of Saudi politics. It is about actual events and obviously all arguments should be supported by facts.


Right which involves the topic of religion. Do you thnk the topic has nothing to do with religion or religions?



Interesting start would be how did you get into military compound in SA.

I ask because what you said is "strange".
For example trivial search on "cristianity in SA" gives beautiful link:
http://www.meforum.org/article/283
Written there correlates perfectly with stories I heard from engineers working there and in UAE.


That my friend was in Jeddah which I had only visited once or twice mainly to go the beaches there. Furthermore that article was written 10 years after I was there during a period of great social anxiety in Saudi Arabia due to the sudden massive swelling of foreign troops in that country during and after the first Gulf War. I lived there in the early 80's.
The off-compound church I went to only twice, so as far as I know they may have gotten raided but not while I was there otherwise my friends who went there would have told me and they would have likely been kicked out of the country. The church services on the compound however were totally open and were done at the "Mission Inn" movie theatre in the compound by a Catholic Priest. The Saudis fully knew about this and did not make any attempts to close it down to my knowledge. The only event I did remember was that some officers were kicked out of the country because they were involved in a bible smuggling ring and were distributing bibles to the foreign workers on the compound.
Again, is this right? Is it it hypocricy when they want full rights for Muslims in our countries. Oh hell yeah. You bet it is. But at the same time they have had a very different historical and cultural trajectory then America.
But once again, Saudi Arabia is NOT the be-all-end-all example of how Muslims are supposed to be or of how an Islamic nation is supposed to be behave. At the same time, they have the main holy sights of Islam and thus are really hardcore about anything that threatens the heart of Islam. Somehow I don't think there are many mosques in Vatican City.
But... yeah, a city is understandable...but a whole country being off limits to other religions is indeed a bit paranoid. It is an ultra-conservative nation that simply does not take well to sudden changes that conflict with their religion. Other countries with majority Muslim populations have not had so many issues or problems.
Anyways... if that is your main point (the hypocricy thing) then yeah I agree with you in general. But it doesn't make Saudis horrible people. There are alot of great things about that country that you don't see in the media.



This is funny how you try to make my question "accusation".
This question is related to stated by you fact of "freely" visiting Cristian church on that particular military base and some obviously underground church somewhere else.
Your posts are inconsistent.


Ok so you were not accusing me of being Muslim. I apologize for my assumption. With Muslim extremists I get accused of being a Jew and a Zionist sometimes at first depending on how I engage in dialog with them.

As for being inconsistent,nah I'm not inconsistent at all. What I am saying is only inconsistent with your data coming from a different period of time in the 1990's (and vastly increased anti-Americanism after 9/11 2001).
In the social sciences it is important to not make assumptions from data coming from two different time periods. Mine being the 1980's and yours being the 90's and beyond. Even if you did find individuals who lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia during the time period I lived there, you may still get different perspectives and experiences. To truly understand, you need to get a good random sample (well as random as possible) and not for example just look for people's negative experiences only. For that same reason, I study a pretty wide swath of Islamic cultures and ideologies rather then just seeking out extremists. Likewise I've read your favorite neocon author, Robert Spencer as well as similar books by Bernard Lewis (who is a bit more moderate) and Serge Trifkovic (who makes Robert Spencer look like a pussy cat). You'd love "The Sword of the Prophet" written by Trifkovic).




Fantastic.
Especially bringing Buddah here.
I would be very fond if you show quotes of Lord Buddah (actually J.Christ will go too) where he taught "approaching with love and respect" individuals worshiping other religions.


Read the book of Matthew, especially "The Sermon on the Mount" if you need a refresher. Its speaking about all religions and people. If you'd like I can post that whole sermon. It's an inspiring passage and what personally I believe to be one of the most powerful teachings of Jesus Christ. Even from a secular psychological standpoint, it makes complete sense. Have you ever tried showing sincere love and forgiveness to someone you are in conflict with? Try it. It works miracles in your life and in the lives of the people around you. I may not be Christian but I love that part of the Christian gospels that unfortunately hardly anyone preaches these days.
The Old Testament is much more in vogue at the moment. Much bloodier and warlike.





? I even had to check it; I do post on the forum called "political discussions and rants", were people do express their believes and political views. You don't have to be Freud to fairly guess national background and believes of MP members.


Freud was a quack who just got the ball rolling in psychology with a few lucky insights. I want to kick people's teeth in everytime they think modern psychologists are today still obsessed with Freud (my background was in cognitive/experimental psych). lol!
But you are right... any moron can "guess" as you say. And they would likely be wrong when the peson they are making assumptions about openly tells them that they are wrong and yet... they keep thinking otherwise because they are paranoid and trying to figure out how to fit this person into their preconceived framework (schema) and what category such people are supposed to fall into.
Relax and don't hurt your brain. Pay attention more to what I am saying rather then trying to figure out where I am from. I can assure you, I am not Muslim, was raised Catholic, and am now Theist... and I am a grduate student in cultural anthropology with a BA in psychology. That all that is important. If you wish to not believe me, well that is your choice. We could have fun accusing each other of being secret Al-Qaeda jihadis practicing Taqqiyah!
:P



Now I do have to ask where did you get your BS?
For those blissed ones :):


My Bull****? Well my Dad and Mom taught me pretty well. I got a BA in psychology though. Where is not important. What I say is pretty much on par with anyone who has a BA in that field. It doesn't make me an expert, but gives me a fairly solid general body of knowledge on the field in general. Graduate studies then become more specialized in specific fields of psychology.



Mental illnesses are study subjects for psychiatry.



First of all, a psychiatrist IS a psychologist who has a medical degree in order to prescribe drugs to his patience. In essence, it is one of the sub-fields within general psychology which includes a vast number of specialities ranging from industrial psychology to neuropsychology, all the way to behavioral studies in primatology.




Clinical psychology (pretty small branch of modern psychology) studies mental "distresses" and avoids as plague using the horrible ugly word "illness". Psychology is not medical, it is social science and studies not illnesses or even problems as such, but humans interactions. (Huge difference!)



Actually many of the experiments are highly scientific in nature (and not quasi-experimental) and actually often overlap with the neuro-sciences. These include studies on memory and perception for example.
There are no big giant dividing lines across the subfields of psychology.
Many psychiatrists for example will mix behavioral therapy (non medicinal treatment) with drug therapy. There are also child psychologists for example that specifically deal with behavioral abnormalities in children. Their expertise is mixed with medical knowledge on child development both cognitive and physical.
By the way, the primary handbook for mental health disorders used by both clinical psychologists and psychiatrists is the DSM IV.
However the field of abnormal/clinical psychology is not what I studied much of as an undergraduate as I only took about one class on abnormal child psychology. I remember writing a paper on OCD and similar anxiety disorders.



Gem.
Actually I doubt that anybody would hate you, to ridicule is another thing.


Well yeah that is probably true. I exaggerated using the word, "hate" and yeah, they probably don't hate me. You are right that they probably shake their heads and think, "that poor misguided boy." But ironically what they have serious issues with is the role of anthropologists in doing any type of research that assists the US government. The American Anthropoogy Association has had serious issues with this as it jeapordizes anthorpologists in the field as they may be seen as spies if they're just doing archaeological research or working in delivering/distributing economic aid. Hopefully you won't now start telling me what is and isn't anthropology.



Fantastic. Now who's horrific genocide you should avoid? and who are these"nor liberal nor conservative" people? Elusive "moderate muslims" that everybody talks about but never sees or hears from?

I hear and see them all the time. Maybe I'm schitzophrenic? "Shhhhhh..... I SEE MODERATE MUSLIM PEOPLE!"

Sorry I'm just having fun with ya. Seriously I see them all the time. It would have warmed you heart to see a whole bunch of Muslims working at shelters for Hurricane Katrina victims long after other volunteers had left. And I didn't hear any sermons about Allah punishing them or crazy stuff like that. If you want to stay in a sheltered fearful hole, then that is your right. But really I recommend that you go out and get to know people in your local Islamic community...and NOT ATTACK their religion. Thats like walking into a church and start telling people there that Jesus Christ was a fictional person and that they're all a bunch of loonie morons.
If you're cool with them and ask them questions in a respectful manner (which some people are incapable of doing), then you'll find lots of fine level-headed Muslims.
Go hang out with them and drink some tea and if you smoke, smoke some shisha with them on a lovely night. Before you know it you'll have a bunch of Muslim friends who will start talking to you more openly about their religious beliefs. Usually through them, you'll be encouraged to talk to an Imam, or if you're lucky, an actual Islamic scholar.
Until then however, I'm afraid you will remain dreadfully fearful and no words that I say will EVER remove that fear. Seriously. If you're not willing to do that, then I'm talking to a brick wall and there is nothing that I can say that will remove your fears. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be watchful and alert for extremists starting trouble, but I think you're being way overly paranoid and hateful and really it's just kinda sad.

Did you have some bad experiences with Muslims? That can happen as well. Alot of Iraq War veterans have come back with more then a little bit of hatred for Muslims. Although most seem to generally like Iraqis and know the difference between your average Iraqi and the nutjobs and idiots once they start talking to them.






Nice. What I quoted and pointed up there is actual and serious threat to your American constitution. Protect it.
Also you are messing up ideological, national and religios issues (actually I find it interesting- are you Pak?).


What's a Pak? You mean a Paki? Most Pakistanis I know here in the US see that term as a derogatory term and very offensive. But since I'm not Pakistani I'm not offended. I do love curry though... Hmmmmm hmmmm!
By the way that wasn't an accusation right? Just a question right? Cuz ya know sometimes I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.




Religion is specifically and explicitly separated from state. That is the right to believe (or not) is the individual right, and no group can impose any religion on anybody else. That a person has right not only to join but also to leave any religious group. Any demand of "precedence" of religious believes over material aspects leads (and any muslim country is great example) to legal mess, social tension and economical instability. For example your son will do something illegal in saria but in a moment of trial he denounces his religion. What should you do?

Did you mean shariat? The UAE has a pretty good economy. Turkey is doing fine. Indonesia is doing really well and has a flourishing democracy.
Malaysia seems to be doing fine. Northern Iraq is doing fine (aside from PKK/Turkish problems).
As for your question... I would have no idea what I would do as I'm not Muslim. If I were I might react in a million different ways depending on again....CONTEXT. What form of shariat law was it, what country, etc...
Again, all Muslim countries are not the same and yet you keep implying that they are. You really need to travel more to Islamic countries.
Quit watching so much CNN and FOX. That stuff is rotting your brain. Experience Islamic cultures directly and not just through the Telly.



Fantastic. Of course presented examples right in this forum, and most importantly the actions of muslim fundamentalists are pure "misinterpretation".

:roll: "we believe you"



Well I'm glad that you believe me. As for my examples. Again, read what I said. I said: "There is nothing in Hadiths or in the Qu'ran saying that Muslims living in kafr nations must devote themselves to destroying those nations and making them Islamic."

If there is nothing stating that they must destroy the nations that they live in within the Qu'ran or Hadiths, then its kinda hard to find examples don't you think? Now you are welcome to look for something that says otherwise or that could be interpreted otherwise. Its always possible that I missed something. I just haven't found anything in my research that specifically states that it is the duty of Muslims living in foreign non-Muslim countries to sabotage those countries. They are however required to try and convert people to Islam. Christians are supposed to do the same in non-Christian countries.





1. Muslim society (that is governed by saria laws) is intrinsically not democratic, and cann't become one. Period.

One of major features of democratic society (main strength actually) is the ability to change, to adapt in time to ever changing conditions.
And permanent "conflict of generations" for example is not weakness but it is important bonus for western societies.

2. I wouldn't mind a fair game. Muslims get right to preach here, cristians and C. in arab world. What about equality (the base of democracy remember?) of different religios groups, some compromise?
A? A?

I'm not sure what "saria" is but I'm guess you mean "Shariat."
1. Well it all depends again on how the Shariat is interpreted. Millions of Indonesians and Malaysians seem just fine with democracy and a mixture of secular and Islamic law. Seems to work for them. Likewise in Iraq, we are seeing again a hybrid democratic Islamic nation taking shape although with a hell of alot of blood. Democracy isn't easy.

2 Equality? How about economic equality? How about racial equality? Hey, life isn't fair. But I agree with you that we should try and encourage people to be more fair-minded. Right now I'm less concerned with Christians having the right to to preach in Saudi and more concerned with both Muslims and Christians in Darfur not being allowed the right to eat, or to not be raped and slaughtered in the name of ethnicity and nationalism.
Things like that are a little bit more important in the scheme of things. But hey that stuff...well that's Darfur and America doesn't trust the U.N. So we don't get involved there cuz the Sudanese government is helping us with intel on THE TERRORISTS!!! Well that and the Chinese won't let us. Sudian is one of their biggest suppliers of oil.
Here's a great document going into detail the cozy relationship between the Bush administration and Sudan's government:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/terrorwar/analysis/2005/0429sudan.htm

Counter-terrorism intel is more important then saving hundreds of thousands of Sudanese lives.

But before you say it... yes... I am sure my President (who recently called our Wallstreet as being drunks going through a hangover, and says that God talks to him) believes 100% that this intel will save hundreds of thousands of Americans from horrific Al-Qaeda terrorist attacks.

So I must have "faith" in my commander in cheif.
Besides where would we be in a world without faith?


Wigon

[wigon]

Of course he'd admire him..after all, he is (Gülen) only practicing al- Taqqiye at its best.

To many in the west (esp. to the Americans) Gülen is a "born again Christian" compared to AQ or the Saudi Wahabism, but for the secular Turkish state..he's worse than AQ cuz he's one sneaky bastard. This is how he gets his support... by continuesly compering himself with AQ..so ppl buys his version quicker.

Let's show wigon the true face of this creature..I'm sure he won't mind cuz these plans he has in his mind is for Turkey..and as long as it's not AQ style and presents no danger to US..he'll be OK with it..but for my country, he's an enemy who should be shot at sight.

This is his video about his plans for Turkey..unfortunately in Turkish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi3Z3qZ7Z4

..but here is the translation of it.

In 1999, footage was aired on Turkish television of sermons delivered by Fethullah Gulen to a crowd of followers, in which he revealed his aspirations for an Islamist Turkey ruled by shari'a as well as the methods that should be used to attain that goal. In the sermons, he said:


"You must move in the arteries of the system, without anyone noticing your existence, until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe, they [the followers] must continue like this. If they do something prematurely, the world will crush our heads, and Muslims will suffer everywhere, like in the tragedies in Algeria, like in 1982 [in] Syria… like in the yearly disasters and tragedies in Egypt. The time is not yet right. You must wait for the time when you are complete, and conditions are ripe, until we can shoulder the entire world and carry it… You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey… Until that time, any step taken would be too early - like breaking an egg without waiting the full 40 days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside. The work to be done is [in] confronting the world. Now, I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to you all - in confidence… trusting your loyalty and sensitivity to secrecy. I know that when you leave here - [just] as you discard your empty juice boxes, you must discard the thoughts and feelings expressed here."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php)


@ Wigon,

I've been reading your posts...I'll admit you're pretty good in the language you're using and I'm sure you impress a lot of ppl here, but when I came to the part that revealed your knowledge about Turkey, its system and demographics, I immediatelly saw how little you knew about my country(yet shamelesly accused others for not knowing enough about Turkey)..so if this is the level about the other things you post here...I say you're full of it and you shouldn't be taken serious.

Btw...I've lived in Saudi Arabia for six years too..so don't try anything on me about that.




My knoweldge on Turkey is what it is. I never said I was an expert on Turkish culture nor did I say that I lived there. Only that I have alot of Turkish friends who are followers of Gulen and who I can without a doubt say, are some of the finest human beings I've met as far as helping others in need selflessly. So please excuse me if I admire what seem like incredibly good people who put me to shame. They know I drink alcohol, smoke, party, have pre-marital ***, etc... and yet don't judge me. Hard to find people like that these days who accept me for who I am.

If they are all decieving me then they are actors worthy of the finest hollywood movies! Seriously, it would. Generally I've always been a pretty good judge of character and I have extremely frank and deep theological conversations with these guys. If one of them was a closet terrorist and blew himself up or something, I would be absolutely shocked and horrified. It also would mean that I would probably be accused of being a terrorist collaborator as I am very close friends with them. That would suck. Do you think they're capable of terrorism?
I even went to Turkish Sufi camp where one of Gulen's students/scholars came to teach. The guy cried alot as he preached and refused to kill ants walking across the table near his food as he ate.... although he probably has no problems slaughtering a lamb for Eid Al Fitr. At any rate, don't worry there were no weapons or hate filled speaches against kafr at this camp. Actually local law enforcement are invited to attend the camps. Alot of non-Muslim guests were invited actually. They did their usual effort to convert me and as usual they just get frustrated. But they were never unpleasant or forceful about it The time I spent at those camps was actually wonderful as nobody argued, the food was incredible Turkish food, and it was just an extremely pleasant atmosphere with hiking, fishing, and canoeing. While they did their praying usually I would be out fishing or canoeing but I sometimes would sit in during the prayers and participate in dhiker (chanting the names of Allah) which is quite a beautiful spiritual experience. But... still no conversion to Islam. I know too much about all the complex rules and prohibitions and all the fighting between Muslims over interpretation of Islam to ever become a Muslim. The same goes for any organized religion. The closest religion I am to is I think a Unitarian. I really like Zen Buddhism as well but I fall asleep during meditations.

What's even funnier (or not so funny) is that I am a Vice President on a charter school board (non-Islamic and totally secular school) run by them. It happens to be one of the top performing charter schools in my city mainly thanks to our Turkish teachers that make up half of our staff and who have incredible dedication to teaching. Do you think they're all part of the conspiracy and are secretly teaching Islam to the children???


Maybe they're taking over America as well? But then wait...if they take over Turkey and slam on full hardcore Shariat on the Turkish people.... won't that "break the egg" in front of the rest of the world? Not a single American would EVER trust a Sufi or even a Turk again. Sufism would become synoymous with liars and decievers of the highest order. As for Saudi Arabia, that's fine and dandy. What part of Saudi did you live in? It was a long time ago that I lived there, but I still have very good memories of that country.
But back to Gulen. Ok... educate me please. Where can I find accurate translations of his fatwas regarding the Shariat. His REAL fatwas with documentation on that. Are there videos? Books? Anything? Or is that secret?
At any rate, I have Turkish friends who are not practicing Muslims and who don't associate with the Gulen guys. I'll see if I can get in contact with them to see if they come up with the same translation. Its not that I don't believe you, but often people translate things very very differently.
But somehow I don't think the Gulen movement is going to turn Turkey into a new Saudi Arabia.... not without a horrific bloodbath in which NATO would likely invade to defend Turkish secularists. Putting more Shariat influences in the laws such as in family law, yeah I can see that. More Islamic education programs...yeah I can see that. If they're like his books and those of Said Nursi, then that doesn't scare me very much.
However, if he is preparing for full scale Jihad against secularism and there is evidence... yeah that would scare the hell out of me.


If there are any other topics regarding Islam that you think I'm full of **** on, hey I'm open to it and can take criticisms. If I'm wrong I'll admit that I'm wrong. If this video indeed seems extremely authentic then most definitely that gives me serious grounds for concern and a whole new area of study. By the way, I do actually care about Turkey. From all accounts from non-Muslims who have travelled there, they all seem to love the place and want to go back. It would be sad to see a beautiful country be torn apart by religious conflict.

Do you think that all his talk about religious tolerance is all lies?
Whatever you can give to me on him I'd greatly appreciate it.

Wigon

[deli_dumrul]

Really? I went to church at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. I also went to a church outside the compound that while not officially sanctioned, was not shut down.


I stopped reading this thread at this post.

[4X4Driver]

My knoweldge on Turkey is what it is. I never said I was an expert on Turkish culture nor did I say that I lived there. Only that I have alot of Turkish friends who are followers of Gulen and who I can without a doubt say, are some of the finest human beings I've met as far as helping others in need selflessly. So please excuse me if I admire what seem like incredibly good people who put me to shame. They know I drink alcohol, smoke, party, have pre-marital ***, etc... and yet don't judge me. Hard to find people like that these days who accept me for who I am.

Well..that's what they're all about. They're a sect members and like in all sects, they're brainwashed and trained pretty well to show their best side. I've met people who used to be members of this sect and things they tell is not same as how they present themselves. Best example is the info I posted about him...and it is authentic..I didn't see it on the youtube first time..I saw it on the documentaries about him.


If they are all decieving me then they are actors worthy of the finest hollywood movies! Seriously, it would. Generally I've always been a pretty good judge of character and I have extremely frank and deep theological conversations with these guys. If one of them was a closet terrorist and blew himself up or something, I would be absolutely shocked and horrified. It also would mean that I would probably be accused of being a terrorist collaborator as I am very close friends with them. That would suck. Do you think they're capable of terrorism?

Not against the people who they need and supports them, but they can get pretty ugly when they're cornered.


I even went to Turkish Sufi camp where one of Gulen's students/scholars came to teach. The guy cried alot as he preached and refused to kill ants walking across the table near his food as he ate.... although he probably has no problems slaughtering a lamb for Eid Al Fitr.
:(

Yes..that's typical him and it's all part of the show.


What's even funnier (or not so funny) is that I am a Vice President on a charter school board (non-Islamic and totally secular school) run by them. It happens to be one of the top performing charter schools in my city mainly thanks to our Turkish teachers that make up half of our staff and who have incredible dedication to teaching. Do you think they're all part of the conspiracy and are secretly teaching Islam to the children???

They have schools in all over the world and that's what they're doing. They were kicked out of Russia and from the Turkic states when they were exposed at what they were doing.



Maybe they're taking over America as well? No they won't..they need the US support to achive their goals in Turkey...and reason US supports them is not because they don't see their real face...they know what they're up to but their mission does not present danger for the US society...on the contrary, US thinks they're good for the Americans...how?? I'll explain below. Btw, you probably know that he's in US for the last 10 years and under the FBI protection in Pennsylvania right now.


But then wait...if they take over Turkey and slam on full hardcore Shariat on the Turkish people.... won't that "break the egg" in front of the rest of the world? Not a single American would EVER trust a Sufi or even a Turk again. Sufism would become synoymous with liars and decievers of the highest order. As for Saudi Arabia, that's fine and dandy. What part of Saudi did you live in? It was a long time ago that I lived there, but I still have very good memories of that country.
But back to Gulen. Ok... educate me please. Where can I find accurate translations of his fatwas regarding the Shariat. His REAL fatwas with documentation on that. Are there videos? Books? Anything? Or is that secret?
At any rate, I have Turkish friends who are not practicing Muslims and who don't associate with the Gulen guys. I'll see if I can get in contact with them to see if they come up with the same translation. Its not that I don't believe you, but often people translate things very very differently.
But somehow I don't think the Gulen movement is going to turn Turkey into a new Saudi Arabia.... not without a horrific bloodbath in which NATO would likely invade to defend Turkish secularists. Putting more Shariat influences in the laws such as in family law, yeah I can see that. More Islamic education programs...yeah I can see that. If they're like his books and those of Said Nursi, then that doesn't scare me very much.
However, if he is preparing for full scale Jihad against secularism and there is evidence... yeah that would scare the hell out of me.

Yeah..just like I thought and said "It will be ok for you as long as he doesn't rule the coutry with Taliban/AQ rules and doesn't present a danger for the Americans"..but for us secular Turks what he has in his mind is bad enough..you said somewhere in your posts that "you'd defend the US const. if all the democratic means failed to protect it" well...expect no less from us on the same matter...and we don't just swear by it only when we join the army..we do it while we're civillians also.

Let me start explaining somethings by reminding of the Ayatollah Homeini..he was a guest in France untill the right time for him came in Iran..well, this is what we think they're saving him for in the US. But he won't be as radical as Homeini though. He won't bring sharia like in SA to Turkey..he'll be milder (i.e Malaysia) because that's what he is asked to do.

Here is the catch; The US gov't thinks Turkey has fulfilled it's mission of being a watchpost for Soviets after the cold war, now there is a new mission for Turkey..which is being a role model for the radical Islamic coutries in the Middle East, but there is one major problem... altough Muslim, Turkey is a secular country and the Islamic countries will not look up to it as a role model ( I know..I lived in SA and I know how much they hate Atatürk) So, Turkey has to waterdown it's "rigid" secular sytem and be accepted by the radical states in the ME...

Gülen's mission is just that..to waterdown the Turkey's secular system to "moderate Islam"

Of course that's the agreement (promises he makes) between him and the US gov't..there is always possibility for him to go out of control and put his real goals at work. They (Gülen sect) believes that Turkish state is established by the crypto Jews and it's being ruled by them up do date...and this should be changed at all costs I'm sure this is not known by the US authorities...yet. The US might as well be being used by him to achive his final mission.



If there are any other topics regarding Islam that you think I'm full of **** on, hey I'm open to it and can take criticisms. If I'm wrong I'll admit that I'm wrong. If this video indeed seems extremely authentic then most definitely that gives me serious grounds for concern and a whole new area of study.

I look at it like this. If you sincerely weren't aware of the things I posted so far about him, than the've played good on you and took advantage of your good intentions..but if you're already aware of it all..than I'm sure you'll deniy it all and play innocent...just like they do.



By the way, I do actually care about Turkey. From all accounts from non-Muslims who have travelled there, they all seem to love the place and want to go back. It would be sad to see a beautiful country be torn apart by religious conflict.

Glad to hear that..and if you're sincere about what you say there...you should be concerned..cuz it's pretty close to SHTF in Turkey.


Do you think that all his talk about religious tolerance is all lies?

Like I said..you compare him to AQ and wahabism...we compare him to our secularism...so what is good and sounds logical for you coming from him..is not same for me and the most in Turkey.

Whatever you can give to me on him I'd greatly appreciate it.
Actually shouldn't need to after seeing the video and the translation...that should be enough to show his real face.

Btw, I lived in Dhahran/Al- Khobar.

[wigon]

By the way, quit trying to hack my accounts. Not funny.

Wigon

[Calanen]

By the way, quit trying to hack my accounts. Not funny.

Wigon

Now who's sounding paranoid?

[wigon]

Just got a little message from one of my accounts requesting a password change. I never requested any password change for that account.

Someone's messing with that. That is all. I'm super cautious about being phished so I'm not worried about it, but it is just annoying as hell trying to get all that fixed. I've been hacked before, but I don't keep financial information on my PC so its just frustrating when stuff gets posted under "wigon" and my accounts.

Wigon

[Mr.Flint]

Just got a little message from one of my accounts requesting a password change. I never requested any password change for that account.

Someone's messing with that. That is all. I'm super cautious about being phished so I'm not worried about it, but it is just annoying as hell trying to get all that fixed. I've been hacked before, but I don't keep financial information on my PC so its just frustrating when stuff gets posted under "wigon" and my accounts.

Wigon
One of your accounts? You have multiple accounts here? well isnt it interesting....

[wigon]

I stopped reading this thread at this post.


Well if you find anyone who was stationed in Riyadh at the USMTM compound during the early 80's, they can verify that indeed we had a Catholic Priest do masses every Sunday in the "Mission Inn" movie theatre next door to the Mission Inn dining hall. I can describe the entire compound in great detail. Oh... yeah and we kept beer in the basement of one of the main apartment buildings (there were two buildings in the center of the compound). At the top of the other building was a library. I still remember when the Saudis had a graduation airshow for their F-15 pilots, one of them did a sonic boom that put cracks into the building's pillars. I believe that was in 1982. There were two different phillipino heads of our rec center then and both were named, "Rocky". lol
Anyways little details like that will job anyone's memory who lived there during that time period between 1980-82.
I should also note however, that I don't think the USMTM compound is there anymore. I could be wrong however I think it was handed over to the Saudis and US military personel were moved to other compounds. I also lived for a few months at the SANG compound as well.


Wigon

[wigon]

One of your accounts? You have multiple accounts here? well isnt it interesting....

Billions of 'em.
lol!

Wigon

[deli_dumrul]

I was just mocking your attempt trying to illustrate religious freedom in Saudi Wahhabia with that ludicrous example.

The show you are attending is for political purposes only; anybody who is really all about the next life would not be interested in managing a 25 billion dollar fund in this life, capito?

[Calanen]

Just got a little message from one of my accounts requesting a password change. I never requested any password change for that account.

Wigon

So are you talking about an account on MP.net or some other thing?

[wigon]

Well..that's what they're all about. They're a sect members and like in all sects, they're brainwashed and trained pretty well to show their best side. I've met people who used to be members of this sect and things they tell is not same as how they present themselves. Best example is the info I posted about him...and it is authentic..I didn't see it on the youtube first time..I saw it on the documentaries about him.



Not against the people who they need and supports them, but they can get pretty ugly when they're cornered.



Yes..that's typical him and it's all part of the show.



They have schools in all over the world and that's what they're doing. They were kicked out of Russia and from the Turkic states when they were exposed at what they were doing.


No they won't..they need the US support to achive their goals in Turkey...and reason US supports them is not because they don't see their real face...they know what they're up to but their mission does not present danger for the US society...on the contrary, US thinks they're good for the Americans...how?? I'll explain below. Btw, you probably know that he's in US for the last 10 years and under the FBI protection in Pennsylvania right now.



Yeah..just like I thought and said "It will be ok for you as long as he doesn't rule the coutry with Taliban/AQ rules and doesn't present a danger for the Americans"..but for us secular Turks what he has in his mind is bad enough..you said somewhere in your posts that "you'd defend the US const. if all the democratic means failed to protect it" well...expect no less from us on the same matter...and we don't just swear by it only when we join the army..we do it while we're civillians also.

Let me start explaining somethings by reminding of the Ayatollah Homeini..he was a guest in France untill the right time for him came in Iran..well, this is what we think they're saving him for in the US. But he won't be as radical as Homeini though. He won't bring sharia like in SA to Turkey..he'll be milder (i.e Malaysia) because that's what he is asked to do.

Here is the catch; The US gov't thinks Turkey has fulfilled it's mission of being a watchpost for Soviets after the cold war, now there is a new mission for Turkey..which is being a role model for the radical Islamic coutries in the Middle East, but there is one major problem... altough Muslim, Turkey is a secular country and the Islamic countries will not look up to it as a role model ( I know..I lived in SA and I know how much they hate Atatürk) So, Turkey has to waterdown it's "rigid" secular sytem and be accepted by the radical states in the ME...

Gülen's mission is just that..to waterdown the Turkey's secular system to "moderate Islam"

Of course that's the agreement (promises he makes) between him and the US gov't..there is always possibility for him to go out of control and put his real goals at work. They (Gülen sect) believes that Turkish state is established by the crypto Jews and it's being ruled by them up do date...and this should be changed at all costs I'm sure this is not known by the US authorities...yet. The US might as well be being used by him to achive his final mission.




I look at it like this. If you sincerely weren't aware of the things I posted so far about him, than the've played good on you and took advantage of your good intentions..but if you're already aware of it all..than I'm sure you'll deniy it all and play innocent...just like they do.




Glad to hear that..and if you're sincere about what you say there...you should be concerned..cuz it's pretty close to SHTF in Turkey.



Like I said..you compare him to AQ and wahabism...we compare him to our secularism...so what is good and sounds logical for you coming from him..is not same for me and the most in Turkey.

Actually shouldn't need to after seeing the video and the translation...that should be enough to show his real face.

Btw, I lived in Dhahran/Al- Khobar.


Ah ok cool. Yeah I was in Dhahran for a very short period of time (like a few hours waiting for a MAC flight out of there). I remember the temperature being over 110 with 100% humidity. That place was miserable. Riyadh seemed very pleasant and cool in comparison. lol

No worries I seriously didn't know a whole lot about his background although I am aware that Sufis in general have always faught Jihad. Nevertheless, you are indeed very correct I think about the difference between American and Turkish views towards Gulen. I think I understand where you are coming from. It would be as if a moderate Southern Baptist slowly started putting more laws from the Bible into our Federal laws very slowly. Yeah some Americans would love that President and some would hate him. In fact we have that President now but he and his party don't control the whole system. They tried to and made a strong effort, but ultimately failed.

But yeah, I definitely understand things clearer now and yeah it doesn't really change my opinion of my Fetullah Gulen friends except that they should be straight forward with me. I think what they are more worried about is for the Turkish Intelligence to find out who they are and arrest them when they go back to visit family members or to find a wife.

I also agree with you that Saudis won't listen to Fetullah Gulen. Why? Because most of his teachings are actually very weak theologically.
If you put him side by side with someone like Shaykh Hamza Yussuf (who I regard as one of the most knowledgable US Islamic scholars) there is really no comparison. Hamza Yussuf backs up everything he says with detailed historical and linguistic analysis along with Hadiths that he says are either strong or weak hadiths with commentary on particular issues on those Hadiths that are considered weak.

Fetullah Gulen is more of a philosopher. He is in fact my point of entry into studying Islamic theology. The more I studied however, the more I realized that his interpretations and Sufism in general is not always well accepted in the Arab world. Often it is outright hated especially by Salafis. My Fetulah Gulen friends were a bit disappointed that I was reading stuff like translations of writings by Ibn Tammiyah but I thought it was important to learn more about these big historical scholars that extremists so often mention.

At first I started thinking that maybe indeed, as Robert Spencer believes, that Salafis are indeed the true Islam. But then I started looking at counter-arguements made by such scholars as Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller at Sunnipath.com, Zaid Shakir, and Hamza Yussuf. I've also spoken to a local Deobandi scholar from Pakistan who could answer some very tough questions with again excellent knowledge of the hadiths.
For Americans, this form of Islam is indeed seen as a tool to fight Salafism.
However, I think that the Gulen movement is the wrong tool for that.
Saudis will always be Saudis. Salafism is in my opinion, made up partly from their harsh tribal culture and history.
I think it can change because they will have to change if they want to sell stuff to us Kafr. Threatening us with nukes is very stupid as it would take them many years to develop enough nukes to seriously threaten the U.S. along with ICBM technology. It will only result in their genocide.
For that reason I am not against having to remove Iranian nuclear ambitions or those of other Islamic countries militarily....but ONLY when all other options have failed.

But yeah... I see your point...but at least Gulen probably won't be like Khomeini. There were lots of clear warning signs with him as he had a clear history of extremely radical thought and believed he was the Mahdi.
But who knows...maybe thats what Gulen believes. I actually did know that he was here in the US, although last I heard he was in Philadelphia and didn't know he owned a big place in Pennslyvania. Maybe if I'm lucky I can get a chance to question Gulen personally.

Until then, so far everything's going fine at my school and no complaints from parents about teachers talking about Islam. I get any complaints directly from parents. If we received any such complaints the state would revoke our charter and all funding. So yeah that probably won't be a problem considering that I live in a heavily Southern Baptist community.

At the University level however, they do teach Islam as part of Islamic student organizations but again are not always well qualified to answer tough theological questions that more students are asking from debates on religion in their political science classes and comparative religion classes. They also don't associate much with Arabs and Pakistanis aside for a few more liberal Arab and Pakistani Sufis who hang around them.
But generally these classes are empty and the only people that attend are other Muslims curious about Sufism. Personally I would be overjoyed to see more American Muslims embrace the Sufi perspective.

At any rate, this has been a very useful dialog after all and I have definitely learned quite a bit from you. Things make more sense.


Wigon

[wigon]

I was just mocking your attempt trying to illustrate religious freedom in Saudi Wahhabia with that ludicrous example.

The show you are attending is for political purposes only; anybody who is really all about the next life would not be interested in managing a 25 billion dollar fund in this life, capito?


I'd be happy with just one billion. I'm not greedy. lol
I was never a very good practicing Catholic and just went because I felt guilty if I didn't. Sometimes however I actually liked the sermons and I miss the incense of frankenscense and myr that they would have in the Christmas masses at the various churches I attended (I'm speaking of here in the States).
As for the afterlife... nah I don't worry too much about it. I figure that if I try to be a good man, don't harm others, and try to leave this planet a better place that it'll be a life well lived. If God sends me to hell because I didn't follow one particular religion in this confusing mess of religions we have, then that's no God I want to have. But if there is no God or afterlife, then well... I won't be around to ponder that when I'm dead now will I? None of us will.
I suppose the only certain form of semi-immortality is having kids and passing on those genes....so my offspring can spawn and rule the world! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Wigon

[wigon]

So are you talking about an account on MP.net or some other thing?

I'm talking about email accounts and other forum accounts.
I am legion! Muahahahaaha!
Anyways I only have one account on this forum. Moderators can look at IP's and validate that pretty quick.

Wigon

[Calanen]

I'm talking about email accounts and other forum accounts.
I am legion! Muahahahaaha!
Anyways I only have one account on this forum. Moderators can look at IP's and validate that pretty quick.

Wigon

Well then how would anyone on here (unless you've told) know anything about your other accounts to hack them?

[wigon]

Well then how would anyone on here (unless you've told) know anything about your other accounts to hack them?

Because one used the same name and is fairly easy to find.
Wigon