USA And Britain Responsible For Terrorism In Iran?

[Annihilator9112]

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=148097

is iran lying to turn other countries against usa or is this true???

another but this one is a year old :/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html


EDIT: just found out the article is 2 months old :S why the hell was it on the 1st page then??

[brainplay]

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=148097

is iran lying to turn other countries against usa or is this true???

another but this one is a year old :/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html


EDIT: just found out the article is 2 months old :S why the hell was it on the 1st page then??

Why would Iran lie about this kind of stuff. I mean if they lied about it then they would just make their rivals look bad or at least attempt to make them look bad. Iran isn't like that. They ship pink teddy bears to the US and the pres. like every 2 days. I mean who else would have the money to funding terrorist training camps and logistics? Only the US has the monies to by like 1000 machine guns. Do you know how many goats thats worth? p-)

[Alfacentori]

Although it has been done in the past, ie in Soviet Afghanistan and Cuba and the US/UK etc might provide some support to dissident Iranian movements I doubt it amounts to bomb training, secret bank accounts and weapons etc.

You have to remember too that these "confessions" have come from people caught and most probably interrogated by the IRG, who

A: Suspect every dissident as being part of a western plot

and

B: Will not stop until they get the answer they want

Alfa

[Henry's Fork]

^Thanks for the LOL, Brain.

Seeing that there are loads of evidence that Iran has been supplying terrorists in Iraq(to name just one country), i would love to see the evidence Iran has on the UK/US.

But....i highly doubt it.

[Euroamerican]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran

Not like the West hasn't been ****ing around with their country in the past.... Naturally suspicious? I would not blame them.

[Billy No Mates]

I would like to think we would be as a tit for tat response to their aid to the insurgents in Iraq but i really doubt the current British government would risk an escalation in Iran while it is desperate to wriggle out of Iraq .

[Mastermind]

I only wish we could visit upon them what they have visited upon us and our allies....I doubt very seriously they could take it. They would whine all the way to the surrender table.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I wonder why the US never took any action against the M-e-K even though the organization is?/was on their list of terrorist groups.

[Mastermind]

Yah...good question. Also, why are we negotiating and supplying thousands of tons of food and petroleum to/with N. Korea if we don't negotiate with terrorists?

[INAT]

Operation Ajax comes to mind.

[welshmann]

Yah...good question. Also, why are we negotiating and supplying thousands of tons of food and petroleum to/with N. Korea if we don't negotiate with terrorists?

because its for the people not the goverment!,look at bandaids effort,it all the money raised went to the people..

Wheres my Sarcasm button????

[Buffalo_soldier]

I only wish we could visit upon them what they have visited upon us and our allies....I doubt very seriously they could take it. They would whine all the way to the surrender table.

You should revisit the last 50 years and see if you come to the same conclusion.

Over 500,000 Iranians died in the Iran-Iraq war. Is that toll not enough?

What about the thousands who were tortured and killed during the Shah's rule?

Or the 300 people shot down in a civilian airliner?

srsly?

[Winger]

You should revisit the last 50 years and see if you come to the same conclusion.

Over 500,000 Iranians died in the Iran-Iraq war. Is that toll not enough?

What about the thousands who were tortured and killed during the Shah's rule?

Or the 300 people shot down in a civilian airliner?

srsly?

First, we supported the Iranians as much if not more than we supported the Iraqis during that war.

Second, the amount of tortured and killed really hasn't changed, just the regimes. At least the Shah was friendly and not shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

Third, the civilian airliner was not purposely shot down for being a civilian airliner. As to why an airliner is cruising through a hotzone is the million dollar question.

Srsly?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

First, we supported the Iranians as much if not more than we supported the Iraqis during that war.

Oh rly? What alternate reality was that in?


Second, the amount of tortured and killed really hasn't changed, just the regimes. At least the Shah was friendly and not shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

Fcuk yeah - at least he was OUR bastard:roll:


Third, the civilian airliner was not purposely shot down for being a civilian airliner. As to why an airliner is cruising through a hotzone is the million dollar question.

It was nowhere near a warzone at the time it was a scheduled flight from Iran across the Straits of Hormuz IIRC. The question to ask is why the USN thought an Airbus A330 was a fighter plane?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

First, we supported the Iranians as much if not more than we supported the Iraqis during that war.

Second, the amount of tortured and killed really hasn't changed, just the regimes. At least the Shah was friendly and not shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

Third, the civilian airliner was not purposely shot down for being a civilian airliner. As to why an airliner is cruising through a hotzone is the million dollar question.

Srsly?Fail. You need to check your facts.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Fail. You need to check your facts.

true

Not only has he not refuted anything i've said. He's tried to justify it :cantbeli:

[Winger]

Oh rly? What alternate reality was that in?

An alternate reality in which people are no longer mislead on this issue. We supported BOTH sides. OMG, we're such bastards! This fact should play nicely into your America evil viewsp-)




Fcuk yeah - at least he was OUR bastard:roll: Don't be ignorant. It's not like that part of the world was ever governed by saints. Take a look at every leader in that region at the time and tell me who wasn't a bastard.




It was nowhere near a warzone at the time it was a scheduled flight from Iran across the Straits of Hormuz IIRC. The question to ask is why the USN thought an Airbus A330 was a fighter plane?

Yeah, you need to read up on this some more. Specifically between 1984-1988. This is what happens when you get complacent:

http://usscoontz.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ffg31_acc8.jpg (http://usscoontz.tripod.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://usscoontz.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ffg31_acc8.jpg&target=tlx_new)

http://usscoontz.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/ffg31_acc1.jpg.w300h206.jpg (http://usscoontz.tripod.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://usscoontz.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ffg31_acc1.jpg&target=tlx_new)

The Airbus shootdown was a tragedy for sure. But considering the hostilities that led up to that point one can begin to understand how the mistake was made. Read up on it. Storm Center is a good account. Other good books out there.


true

Not only has he not refuted anything i've said. He's tried to justify it :cantbeli:

No need to refute facts. Read the post again. It's not about refuting, it's about context.

[Mastermind]

Okay...I've read up on the facts of that era...and I don't see anything erronious about Wingers post...so you guys come up with the contrary facts...go ahead...show how the crew knew they were shooting down an airliner filled with innocent people? Prove the AL was not in a war zone. Show how the Shaw was shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

I don't know about the US support for either side in the Iran/Iraq war. But, clandestine action to dampen the Saddam regime would be in the practicality deck.

Instead of just calling names or accusing someone of being in another reality...back up your belief system.

[Winger]

Okay...I've read up on the facts of that era...and I don't see anything erronious about Wingers post...so you guys come up with the contrary facts...go ahead...show how the crew knew they were shooting down an airliner filled with innocent people? Prove the AL was not in a war zone. Show how the Shaw was shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

I don't know about the US support for either side in the Iran/Iraq war. But, clandestine action to dampen the Saddam regime would be in the practicality deck.

Instead of just calling names or accusing someone of being in another reality...back up your belief system.

Here is another tidbit of fact concerning this incident:


three Iranian Boghammar gunboats fired on a helicopter that had flown off the Vincennes on a reconnaissance mission. The helicopter flew back to the cruiser unscathed. The Vincennes and a smaller warship, the frigate USS Elmer Montgomery, a half-hour later closed on the gunboats and put them under fire with 5-inch guns, sinking two and damaging the third.

The shootdown occurred within one hour later. This is supported by multiple sources.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Okay...I've read up on the facts of that era...and I don't see anything erronious about Wingers post...so you guys come up with the contrary facts...go ahead...show how the crew knew they were shooting down an airliner filled with innocent people? Prove the AL was not in a war zone. .

It was a scheduled flight FFS - the Straits of Hormuz are at the other end of the Gulf from where the Iran Iraq war was going on :cantbeli:

And how exactly was America backing both sides in the Iran Iraq war? Winger hasn't said what backing America was giving Iran.

They gave Saddam plenty of critical intel - what did the Iranians get (apart from hardware courtesy of Oliver North that the US was forced into giving to them)?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Here is another tidbit of fact concerning this incident:



The shootdown occurred within one hour later. This is supported by multiple sources.

A big so what? Some of your boats were nasty to one of my helicopter crews so I'm going to shoot down one of your airliners? :cantbeli:

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Okay...I've read up on the facts of that era...and I don't see anything erronious about Wingers post...so you guys come up with the contrary facts...go ahead...show how the crew knew they were shooting down an airliner filled with innocent people? Prove the AL was not in a war zone. Show how the Shaw was shooting off at the mouth about attacks of armageddon.

I don't know about the US support for either side in the Iran/Iraq war. But, clandestine action to dampen the Saddam regime would be in the practicality deck.

Instead of just calling names or accusing someone of being in another reality...back up your belief system.Nobody (except Iran) said the USN intentionally shot down a civilian airliner, but rather that the USN mistook an airliner on a routine flight well within it's normal flightpath for a threat and downed it. Paint it whatever way you want, it was a major f-up.

[Winger]

It was a scheduled flight FFS - the Straits of Hormuz are at the other end of the Gulf from where the Iran Iraq war was going on :cantbeli:

I'm glad you at least know your geography concerning the Straights. So, tell me this, why were we being shot at? Because there was a shooting war going on that's why. The flight should not have been allowed to take place, IMO. I for one am not of the belief of many that Iran purposely flew it to create an incident or am I of the belief that the we shot it down on purpose. Mistakes happen, on both sides.


And how exactly was America backing both sides in the Iran Iraq war? Winger hasn't said what backing America was giving Iran. They gave Saddam plenty of critical intel - what did the Iranians get (apart from hardware courtesy of Oliver North that the US was forced into giving to them)?[/

I can't do all your research for you Stabp-) During the conflict Iranians were provided with through proxy since we were at odd with the regime. Iran-Contra scandal was just an inkling. A more direct side conflict was eventually developed between us and the Iranians after minings and Silkworm hits. Remember the reflaggings of tankers? From that point our support of Iran ceased. I was in middle school at the time and I remember all too well the incidents ongoing in the Gulf.

At the time only 7% of our supply was coming from the region but after it was threatened it was enough for us to step in, especially because of heightened Soviet presence, we had to show our capability to exert order on the open seas. And, because it would affect prices.


A big so what? Some of your boats were nasty to one of my helicopter crews so I'm going to shoot down one of your airliners? :cantbeli:

Stab my friend you keep missing the point and are out of context. Had they known for certainty that it was an airliner, it would not have been shot at. And even then, what if they thought it was a decoy? Terrible things happen to the mind and senses during combat. Be thankful you never learn what that's like.

Again
three Iranian Boghammar gunboats fired on a helicopter that had flown off the Vincennes on a reconnaissance mission. The helicopter flew back to the cruiser unscathed. The Vincennes and a smaller warship, the frigate USS Elmer Montgomery, a half-hour later closed on the gunboats and put them under fire with 5-inch guns, sinking two and damaging the third. The shootdown occurred within one hour later. This is supported by multiple sources.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I'm glad you at least know your geography concerning the Straights. So, tell me this, why were we being shot at? Because there was a shooting war going on that's why. The flight should not have been allowed to take place, IMO. I for one am not of the belief of many that Iran purposely flew it to create an incident or am I of the belief that the we shot it down on purpose. Mistakes happen, on both sides.

Yes mistakes happen. I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I take the view that c0ck ups are the more likely explanation and the shooting down of the airliner was a massive c0ck up which has colored Iran-American relations ever since. It's strange that other countries including mine had a significant naval presence in the region at the time and somehow managed to:

1. Not get any of their ships 'exoceted'
2. Not shoot down any civvie airliners.




I can't do all your research for you Stabp-) During the conflict Iranians were provided with through proxy since we were at odd with the regime. Iran-Contra scandal was just an inkling. A more direct side conflict was eventually developed between us and the Iranians after minings and Silkworm hits. Remember the reflaggings of tankers? From that point our support of Iran ceased. I was in middle school at the time and I remember all too well the incidents ongoing in the Gulf.

Clearly that qualifies you for something - I cannot imagine what though :cantbeli:

[Mastermind]

Still have not shown a thing to counter Winger's facts. Just your own specualtions Stab...and usual personal opines.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Still have not shown a thing to counter Winger's facts. Just your own specualtions Stab...and usual personal opines.

Winger still hasn't specified what help America was giving Iran in the Iran Iraq War.

Until he comes up with so called 'facts' it's a bit hard to talk about them isn't it?

You seemed to conveniently miss these facts.


It's strange that other countries including mine had a significant naval presence in the region at the time and somehow managed to:

1. Not get any of their ships 'exoceted'
2. Not shoot down any civvie airliners.

[Winger]

Winger still hasn't specified what help America was giving Iran in the Iran Iraq War.

Until he comes up with so called 'facts' it's a bit hard to talk about them isn't it?

You seemed to conveniently miss these facts.

You are one lazy bastard you know that? p-)

Dig this up and read, The Tower Commission. Read ALL of it before posting on this subject ever again please. It addresses much more than the scandal it was formed to investigate. Highlight the important lines like the one on page 279 for example. By the way, that's a nice way of me throwing you a bone on your quest for self-help.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, show how to fish and you feed him for life.

Other good book to read is Iran-Iraq War:1980-1988 by Cordseman & Wagner. But like, who has time to read books nowadays and dig up old reports? We got the net dude! :roll:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You are one lazy bastard you know that? p-)

Dig this up and read, The Tower Commission. Read ALL of it before posting on this subject ever again please. It addresses much more than the scandal it was formed to investigate. Highlight the important lines like the one on page 279 for example. By the way, that's a nice way of me throwing you a bone on your quest for self-help.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, show how to fish and you feed him for life.

Other good book to read is Iran-Iraq War:1980-1988 by Cordseman & Wagner. But like, who has time to read books nowadays and dig up old reports? We got the net dude! :roll:

Unlike you 'dude' I have a life outside Mp.net

I know about the Tower Commission and the Iran Contra affair. As I said earlier in the thread - what help was the USA giving Iran apart from what was forced out of them in order to get hostages back?

You were implying earlier in the thread that the 'USA was backing both sides' like it was some kind of voluntary thing.

Oh I forgot you're an expert on the subject - you were in middle school at the time :roll:

[Mastermind]

You know...I don't think you are ex-Stab. Ex-Stab has a very dry, witty sense of humor and a much more in depth view of things. He seldom resorts to direct attacks...he has a clever twist on just about everything and will do the research when challenged. In my opinion, you are not him.

[Winger]

Unlike you 'dude' I have a life outside Mp.net

I know about the Tower Commission and the Iran Contra affair. As I said earlier in the thread - what help was the USA giving Iran apart from what was forced out of them in order to get hostages back?

You were implying earlier in the thread that the 'USA was backing both sides' like it was some kind of voluntary thing.

Oh I forgot you're an expert on the subject - you were in middle school at the time :roll:

Knowing about it and reading/studying it are two different things. Assistance was no all completely forced. If you knew about the Soviet threat of influence in that region at the time you'd know that there was a bipolar effort on our part. One side wanted to stear them from Soviet influence and the other worked against the regime due to having been displaced with the fall of the Shah and the maintaining of balance. Weapons were provided, not just attempted to be provided.

Although I'm not an expert on the subject, some are better read and schooled than most. :roll: Some of "us" actually have degrees like a Bachelors in History or Masters in History. Some of "us" belong to geeky assocations like the American Historical Society or even do some side work for think tanks like Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Also, you can go ahead and insult some of our more prominent experts on WWII or the Korean War because they were in middle school when it happened. Dumbass.
:bash:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Knowing about it and reading/studying it are two different things. Assistance was no all completely forced. If you knew about the Soviet threat of influence in that region at the time you'd know that there was a bipolar effort on our part. One side wanted to stear them from Soviet influence and the other worked against the regime due to having been displaced with the fall of the Shah and the maintaining of balance. Weapons were provided, not just attempted to be provided.

Although I'm not an expert on the subject, some are better read and schooled than most. :roll: Some of "us" actually have degrees like a Bachelors in History or Masters in History. Some of "us" belong to geeky assocations like the American Historical Society or even do some side work for think tanks like Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Also, you can go ahead and insult some of our more prominent experts on WWII or the Korean War because they were in middle school when it happened. Dumbass.
:bash:


Wow! Comparing yourself to 'prominent experts'
That's some ego trip.

ROFLrofl

[martinexsquaddie]

considering the us/uk forced the murderous tryant the shah on the iraninans and then supported him to the bloody end .
the shooting of the airliner was just a minor add odd to the amount of iraninan bllod we spilled.
uk gov nikced the tracked rapier and challenger one tanks iran paid for as well:)

[Mastermind]

Apparently, I was right...that's not the Ex-Stab I know. This has happened before in these forums. It would seem Ex-Stab has a roomee who gets on occassionally.

[Winger]

considering the us/uk forced the murderous tryant the shah on the iraninans and then supported him to the bloody end .
the shooting of the airliner was just a minor add odd to the amount of iraninan bllod we spilled.
uk gov nikced the tracked rapier and challenger one tanks iran paid for as well:)

Can't argue there. We don't and haven't always supported the more saintly regimes because, well, sometimes they don't exist.

As to Stab, well, Japanese Captains in WWII were also known to go down with their ship instead of abandoning them even though all was lost.

[deagle]

i'm pretty sure they're terrorizing themselves. hard to explain what weird things they do.