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View Full Version : 'They have no humanity. They didn't even give us two minutes



ariweiner
06-04-2004, 10:12 PM
Last month, Israeli troops swept into the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza, bulldozing hundreds of homes and leaving around 60 dead. Israel says it was looking for terrorists, but by the time the army withdrew, 1,600 people were homeless. What happens to the people whose houses are destroyed? Chris McGreal asked six families to show him what they salvaged from the rubble

Friday June 4, 2004
The Guardian

The Al-Akhras family

There is nothing left of the Akhras' family's home. Even the cloths blowing in the breeze above their heads, providing a pathetic, makeshift tent to the once nomadic Bedouin family, are borrowed from luckier neighbours. A large round metal bowl is all that they recovered from the rubble of their house after it was bulldozed by the Israeli army.

"There were 10 rooms here," says the 50-year-old patriarch, Ghazi. "Thirty-three people lived in the house. There was me, my wife, my seven brothers and their wives, and all our sons and daughters."

It was 10pm when the bulldozers came. "All the people were fleeing their houses, but one of my brothers is handicapped and was trapped in the house. We had to carry him out as the bulldozer was hitting the building."

All that remains of the house is a mound of concrete and dirt. The destruction by the bulldozer was so complete that some of the walls have been ground to a rubble reminiscent of the rocky desert beyond the fence.

Like many other families in Rafah, the Akhras family has been made homeless before. Ghazi came from Yibna after the Israeli army, under the command of Ariel Sharon, then military governor of Gaza, bulldozed his home in 1971. "We bought the house here from the Israelis. We had the documents to show it. We saved nothing, not even the documents," he says. "This is more than the catastrophe of 1948 for us. In 1948 there were no Apaches shooting at us."

Akhras, who worked as a builder in Israel before the intifada, cannot afford to rebuild. "I have no money to do it. Now we are all homeless, living in houses of relations. During the day we come and sit on the rubble, under the tent, because the relations do not want us in their house all day. At night we go there just to sleep."

The Abu Ghali family

Aziza Abu Ghali is exhausted by her fury and can barely stand. "My husband is 90 years old and has nowhere to sleep. The Jews are just demolishing our houses. I was shouting at the bulldozer driver: 'Don't you have children?' They kill our sons and put us in the morgue. We are praying to Allah to show them the suffering that they show us."

Aziza is one of the few in her street who remember how they all ended up in Rafah in 1948, just as the Israeli state was being created. She was born in the now extinct village of Yubna, which was erased and replaced with the Israeli town of Yavne. Four of her children - three sons and a daughter - were born there also. "The Jews used their guns to make us go away. They tell lies about this now, saying we ran away on our own. Who would leave their home unless they had to? We only left to save the lives of our children. I was a young woman then. I never imagined that the Jews would still be doing this to me."

When the bulldozers came this time, Aziza was asleep. Her husband, Yousef, was in a bed in a neighbouring room. Their son and his family lived across a small yard in two other rooms.

All that was recovered from the wreckage was Yousef's wheelchair. The corner of his bed sticks out from the rubble. Their fridge is tossed on top, wrecked. A metal ceiling fan, its blades buckled like a withering flower, hangs from a surviving wall.

Yousef's son, Sobhi, a nurse in a UN clinic, says his father was lucky to escape. "All day there was shooting. There was a tank near our house and I was afraid to even put my head out of the door. There were Israeli snipers on the top of the buildings. It was dangerous just to show your face.

"I was awake the whole night. I could hear sounds of houses being demolished. At first light I could hear my father knocking at my mother's room saying he wanted to go to dawn prayers. He is almost totally deaf. I wanted to call to him and tell him to stay indoors because they might shoot, but he came out and I had to rush to rescue him."

The family sheltered for a few more hours until the bulldozer's attention turned to their own house, home to 13 people. "I saw the house was about to be demolished. I just picked up my son and my father and dragged them away. We ran out into where the shooting was. The bulldozer driver was indifferent to us. They saw us and knew we were inside. We had just a few minutes to get away. We were crying and shouting at them. I was carrying my father on my shoulders. I don't think he even understood what was happening."

The Al-Wawi family

Mousa Joma al-Wawi has a long history with Ariel Sharon. "We call him 'the bulldozer'. This is not the first time he's done this to us. The first time was in 1971," says the 54-year-old grandfather, standing amid the rubble of his home in the al-Brazil neighbourhood in Rafah.

Like many in Rafah, the latest round of mass demolitions was not the first time that Wawi had been bulldozed out of his home. He counts off the times he has had to flee his house.

"I was a refugee before I was even born. My mother was pregnant when she fled our village, Zarnuga, when the Jews came in 1948. The house is still standing. There's a Jew living in it. My mother moved to a tent in Khan Younis (a little north of Rafah) and then to Rafah, where I was born."

Wawi's introduction to the bulldozers came in the 70s, when General Sharon, as he then was, bulldozed about 20,000 people from their homes in the Gaza Strip to widen roads as part of his strategy against the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

"Sharon destroyed our house. The UN and Israelis built us new ones in Yibna [a Rafah neighbourhood]. They sold the house to us. I have all my documents. The house had a tiled roof and two rooms. It was 1.5m high and 3m long by 2.5m wide. When we became a bigger family, we expanded it."

But the bulldozers were back in 1997, as the Israeli army destroyed the very homes it had built for Palestinian refugees about 25 years earlier. The Wawi family fled to the al-Brazil neighbourhood of Rafah and, over the years, built up a new home.

There were about 20 men, women and children crammed into the back room of Wawi's home on the corner of an al-Brazil street when the demolition squads arrived. They had not dared to venture out because of the bullets flying round the street, but now they had to escape.

"My brother lives next door," says Wawi. "We were all in this room and my brother came with a hammer and smashed a hole in the wall. The bulldozer was hitting the house. We carried nothing at all. We were just trying to escape by ourselves ... Some of the pigeons survived."

Among the rubble lies the water tank, pierced by bullets, a broken bedside table and the remnants of a wardrobe. A hanging basket of red flowers magically survived unscathed, and the family pulled some blankets, pillows and a child's toy plastic bike from the rubble.

Where will they go now? "This is still my home," says Wawi. "We will clean it and we will bring tents in. If they want to shoot me in my home - shoot me, my sons, my grandchildren - we cannot stop them. We are staying, no matter what."

The Mikkawi family

Rula Abu Abid grips her doll as if it is all she has left in the world. It is called Larla and its head is buried in the rubble of her home. Rula asked her grandfather, Hassan Mikkawi, if they would ever find it. The 61-year-old motor mechanic - "the most famous mechanic in Rafah" - reassured the five-year-old that one day they would have the strength to sift through the rubble to look.

One building in the family compound, which provided homes for two of his sons and their families, has been completely demolished. The armoured bulldozer ripped the front out of his own home, crushing furniture, destroying much of the living room and wrecking the bedroom. The surviving furniture is battered and splintered. Not much else was saved: a toolbox, a crate of onions, a large metal bowl, a bedside table, some blankets. Mikkawi's car was flattened by the massive bulldozer.

"I lived in America illegally for more than a year. It was 1996," he says, pulling out an Alabama driving licence to prove it. "I had good work as a motor mechanic, but I came back here. I often wonder why, but I could not take my family to America. When I came back, we thought things would be peaceful. We thought there would be no more demolitions."

Hassan Mikkawi was six years old when he fled his own village, Zarnuga, as it was seized by the fledgling Israeli army in 1948. There were about 2,500 Arabs living there, many of whom ended up in Rafah.

"I remember the garden and the mosque. At that time there were no tanks, but I remember the shooting. I remember my mother and my father and my brother weeping. And I remember us running away and my father carrying some food and some clothes. It was the same then as it is now.

"We arrived in Gaza in 1948 and came to Rafah a year later. In 1967 the Israelis crushed our home and they wanted to send us to Sinai or the West Bank but we refused. My father built a house here. Two rooms with a bathroom. You can see we made it much bigger, much grander."

There were 16 people living in the house when the bulldozers arrived for the most recent demolition. The family ran, waving white headscarves. When they returned, the parts of the house that were not destroyed teetered precariously. A forest of scaffolding is all that keeps it standing.

The Abu Hasaneen family

Raesa Khalel Abu Hasaneen has 10 children. Their small home was always a little cramped; the boys sleeping in one room, the girls in another. But all that is left now is the kitchen, where some of the children bed down next to a piece of netting where once there was a wall, and the bathroom.

"We didn't expect this to happen here. The Israelis say they are looking for [weapons-smuggling] tunnels but we are too far away from the border to have tunnels.

"We heard the bulldozer and we saw the walls shaking. I put my children in one room and I went to the bulldozer and said there were children in the house. The children were all crying. The driver kept bulldozing. I was crying and shouting and begging and waving a white flag.

"The men smashed a hole in the wall to the neighbour's house. They had pieces of wood and they were hitting and hitting. They all came to help us."

The family escaped, but not much was recovered from the rubble. A couple of kerosene lanterns and many of the children's schoolbooks survived, as did the kitchen furniture and fridge. But all the beds and clothes are gone.

"The children don't want to go to school in these clothes. They have been wearing them for days. They are ashamed," she says.

"This was my home for 22 years. I moved here when I married my husband. There's nothing better than this home. I am sleeping on the stone floor now, but I'm staying here for my dignity. I have no idea how we will rebuild it. My husband used to be a builder in Israel but he is not allowed to work there anymore. We have no money to rebuild.

"They only have malice against all Palestinians because the Jews don't want to see Palestinians as people. They just want to destroy us."

The Abu Masod family

Mohammed Abu Masod says the graffiti on the shell of his home and factory was nothing to do with him, but he sympathises with its sentiment. Sprayed on to what had been one of the building's floors, now sloping precariously after an army bulldozer ripped the supporting wall away, is a Star of David next to a Nazi swastika. The equation deeply offends almost all Israelis, and Palestinians know it. But Abu Masod, sitting in the rubble of the business that fed his extended family, sees what he describes as a common lack of humanity between the two.

"They do not see us as human beings. They have no humanity. Look at the Jewish settlers: they live so well and we live so badly because of it. And then what little we have the Jews destroy. They didn't give us two minutes to get out. They were slapping us in the face. They called us terrorists. Who are the terrorists now?"

One in three buildings in Masod's street were demolished by the armoured bulldozers. All that emerged from what had been his factory, which made car carpets and seat covers, is a couple of ruined sewing machines, a few blankets and a battered car seat.

The Abu Masod family came from Wadi Hanin, a village that no longer exists inside Israel. Wadi Hanin was razed; Mohammed came to Rafah as a baby in 1948. He was living in Yibna in 1973 when his home there was demolished by Sharon's bulldozers in what was then, too, called an anti-terrorist operation. He moved to al-Brazil. "We were six brothers when we built this place. Now we are 40 people living in this building," he says. "This little factory, all the family lived off it. We made carpets for cars and chairs. We got nothing out of the building: the machines, our clothes, the furniture, our gold, food - nothing. We didn't even get the needles."

"There are about 20 sewing machines in the rubble. I lost tens of thousands of dollars. We bought all the machines from Italy. They were all new a few years ago."

When the bulldozers arrived, Abu Masod was in the house with two of his older sons, Jabr, 20, and Masod, 16. There were also five of his brothers and their 12 children, including six babies. "We were all in the house. We waved white flags and we were talking to the bulldozer driver. We said we had children in here. The army gathered all of the men, handcuffed us, covered our eyes and took as to the border for interrogation. The children were sheltering in a neighbour's house."

The destruction was thorough. One building was entirely destroyed and another, built above the ground-floor sewing shop, was partially collapsed and most of the contents smashed. On top of the rubble lies a sycamore tree that has been ripped from the ground.

"Now I am homeless in the street. I sleep here, in the rubble. The children sleep with the neighbours. I don't have money to buy food for the children so the neighbours are feeding them. I can't afford to rebuild. The clothes I'm wearing are all I have."

rokus2595
06-04-2004, 10:33 PM
Poor people. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians would make Hitler proud. Way to go Israel.

cut
06-04-2004, 10:50 PM
I think that israel is being heavy handed but comparing them to hitler is out of order

Hawaii_Light
06-04-2004, 10:52 PM
I think that israel is being heavy handed but comparing them to hitler is out of order

precisaly

usa320
06-04-2004, 10:58 PM
I agree.

But i also understand why they are making these efforts.

How many suicide bombings have their been since Israel started bombing terrorist leadership directly...none.

To be the leader of Hamas right now means being a deadman walking.

cut
06-04-2004, 11:19 PM
I agree.

But i also understand why they are making these efforts.

How many suicide bombings have their been since Israel started bombing terrorist leadership directly...none.

To be the leader of Hamas right now means being a deadman walking.

that's true but do ordinary palestinians have to suffer so israelis don't? does it have to be one or the other?

Michael RVR
06-04-2004, 11:58 PM
that's true but do ordinary palestinians have to suffer so israelis don't? does it have to be one or the other?

Apparently yes. Or alternatively it can be both.
:|

SOG
06-05-2004, 12:49 AM
well thats a interesting article with one sided accounts and stories. ill wait till i hear more information and two accounts before taxing my lobe and putting together 2+2.

stateofequilibrium
06-05-2004, 12:50 AM
You know the sad thing is, I doubt this will end until one side is completely wiped out or some earth-changing/shattering event occurs. Each side is sure, and perhaps rightfully so, that violence begets violence. To forgive and forget means to have an even bigger gun waiting the next time.

AirZone
06-05-2004, 03:50 AM
that's true but do ordinary palestinians have to suffer so israelis don't? does it have to be one or the other?

Apparently yes. Or alternatively it can be both.
:| Probably it is like that, if so...I prefer that they will suffer and my my people won't. Sad but thats life :| (but we are pulling gaza anyway so it will be over soon)

and one that said we are like hitler...I heard to many of you that are ignorace and dont have a clue what happens with this conflict... we are both wrong and we are both right...

ZIEG HAIL !!! go to troll in some one else.

S'13
06-05-2004, 04:33 AM
Poor people. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians would make Hitler proud. Way to go Israel.

Actually the fact that Palestinians use suicide bombings in their campaign of terror in order to kill children just because they are Jewish would make him proud, makes more sense. However I'd probably get more sense out of a rock than from a person like you.

Javehn
06-05-2004, 07:21 AM
Poor people. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians would make Hitler proud. Way to go Israel.

Let me tell you a little story . It's story from the 1992 , the first gulf war . In those days , IDF was still in Gaza . During those days , Scuds were falling in Israel and Saudi Arabia . One day , after a friday prair demonstration started to form in Rafah , and they astarted to shout in favor of Saddam , blessed the falling of Scuds and so on ... On the Egyptian Rafah they saw what is going on in Israeli side , and they started to mass the same way , shouting "bless Saddam , send more Scuds on Israel" , started to throw rocks and so on . On Israeli side , soldiers came , and when situation started to get hot , they used tear gas . On Egypt side , there were 3 Egyptian soldiers (or Policemen) . They looked at that rally , and radio their headquarters . After several minutes a Geep came , with a machine gun . Machine gun fired . Instantly , everybody got quiet and organised , and went home .

Learn your own lesson from this , idiot , and don't dare to call us Nazies .

You are from Canada ? Better find out why your government financed the civil war in Sudan and it's war crimes without sounding a peep (look for Talisman company and it's investment in Sudan ) ,and then come back to me , allrighty ?

OB Kenobi
06-05-2004, 07:42 AM
I think that israel is being heavy handed but comparing them to hitler is out of order

How about to Milosevic?

UoUo
06-05-2004, 08:17 AM
Last week two americans invade my house and raped my wife and force me to drink oil...and sing thier the mational antem...and then they orderd me to kiss thier shoes...and then they shoot my 2 years baby in the head.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Holy...how much stupiad people can be.

ExtraT
06-05-2004, 09:10 AM
One can always trust the Guardian to spit out some antisemitic crap.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-05-2004, 09:22 AM
One can always trust the Guardian to spit out some antisemitic crap.
The Guardian is anti-Semitic? This is a new one on me, they have however rightly or wrongly taken a hard line against the current Israeli administration and their policies. I don't think race hate is part of Guardian's editorial policy.

tooms
06-05-2004, 09:31 AM
One can always trust the Guardian to spit out some antisemitic crap.
The Guardian is anti-Semitic? This is a new one on me, they have however rightly or wrongly taken a hard line against the current Israeli administartion and their policies. I don't think race hate is part of Guardian's editorial policy.

It's trendy to call someone anti-semitic if he doesn't agree with Israel foreign policy.

UoUo
06-05-2004, 09:36 AM
You have douts to call someone that belive every thing that the pal' says...and not beleving to anything that the Israelis saying antisemtic?

S'13
06-05-2004, 09:42 AM
One can always trust the Guardian to spit out some antisemitic crap.
The Guardian is anti-Semitic? This is a new one on me, they have however rightly or wrongly taken a hard line against the current Israeli administartion and their policies. I don't think race hate is part of Guardian's editorial policy.

It's trendy to call someone anti-semitic if he doesn't agree with Israel foreign policy.

Not as trendy as actually been Anti-Semitic and then camouflage it as been Anti-Israeli/Zionst...

ZeroPositive
06-05-2004, 10:59 AM
sorry to see anyone's house destroyed...

oldsoak
06-05-2004, 11:05 AM
In fairness to the Guardian, it has bever been one for racial hatred. There is a definite difference between saying a particular policy pursued by the Israeli government is wrong ( and there are Israelis who might agree with this ) because it goes against certain values - and saying the same thing because everything the Israelis do is wrong for no better reason that they are Israelis. Yes there are the wolves in sheeps clothing but they soon show themselves. What needs to be seen more often are the undoubted efforts being made to minimise collateral damage, because until that happens the PR for the Israelis does not look good.

fdt
06-05-2004, 12:34 PM
Taken from:

http://www.havurahshirhadash.org/rebzalmanarticle6.html


You know well the oft-quoted story of Hillel and Shammai. The Greek goes to Shammai and wants to learn the whole Torah while standing on only one foot. Shammai beats him with a builder's rod. The Greek leaves and goes to Hillel. He responds: "What you don't want to be done to you don't do to someone else. All the rest is commentary; go and learn to the finish." And the Greek became a Jew.

Confronting this story to the actual events, everyone knows who is supposed to be a Greek and who is supposed to be Shamai... but will anyone tell me where/who is Hillel? Without Hillel all this story WILL NOT have a happy end...

cut
06-05-2004, 12:45 PM
One can always trust the Guardian to spit out some antisemitic crap.
The Guardian is anti-Semitic? This is a new one on me, they have however rightly or wrongly taken a hard line against the current Israeli administartion and their policies. I don't think race hate is part of Guardian's editorial policy.

It's trendy to call someone anti-semitic if he doesn't agree with Israel foreign policy.

Not as trendy as actually been Anti-Semitic and then camouflage it as been Anti-Israeli/Zionst...

the guardian is not anti-semitic but is anti-israel from what I have read. there are one or two political organisations in Britain that could be described as anti-semitic, but using it for newspapers does nothing but diminish the meaning of the word, surely you don't want to turn the accusation of anti-semitism into a blunt one?

after all the BBC here is unfairly accused of being anti-semitic because it referrs to palestinians that attack soldiers as militants and not terrorists, which is perfectly correct in terms of the true meaning.

Javehn
06-05-2004, 01:06 PM
Taken from:

http://www.havurahshirhadash.org/rebzalmanarticle6.html


You know well the oft-quoted story of Hillel and Shammai. The Greek goes to Shammai and wants to learn the whole Torah while standing on only one foot. Shammai beats him with a builder's rod. The Greek leaves and goes to Hillel. He responds: "What you don't want to be done to you don't do to someone else. All the rest is commentary; go and learn to the finish." And the Greek became a Jew.

Confronting this story to the actual events, everyone knows who is supposed to be a Greek and who is supposed to be Shamai... but will anyone tell me where/who is Hillel? Without Hillel all this story WILL NOT have a happy end...

That famous story .... The house of Hillel , and the house of Shamay were 2 different Torah interpriting houses 2200+ years ago , while usually Shamay was the hard liner , while Hillel house was softer one . Most of rules made accordingly to Hillel house line , and very few set accordingly to Shamay stricter line . The line that Hillel said to Greek goes "Al taase lehavereha na shesanuy aleyha" , means - Don't make to your friend what is hatefull upon you . But the people was guns and big explosives not friends ;) . On them there is "Rodef" judgement , which says "Kill the one who raises a knife on you , before he kills you" .

hey
06-05-2004, 01:12 PM
cut wrote:

after all the BBC here is unfairly accused of being anti-semitic because it referrs to palestinians that attack soldiers as militants and not terrorists, which is perfectly correct in terms of the true meaning.

The problem is when they refer to palestinians that get in a civilean bus and explode themselves as militants and not terrorists. the problem is when theres a terror act they saying its all the fault of Israel, the problem is that they accept the terror as a legetimte tactic for the palestinians, basicly what they are saying is that the pal' have every right to kill any Israeli they see. And if you can make 1+1 you understans that what they are saying is that Israelis desreve to die.

and with concetion to BBC or without it, just for you to know, threwout history the antisemic people always said that they kill jews because they deserve it.

fdt
06-05-2004, 01:21 PM
I love happy ends... Despite all "buts" (just as the Greek's will to learn ;) ) I still hope that maybe me maybe my son will live to see the Shammai+Hillel in action...

pozdrawiam

Javehn
06-05-2004, 01:22 PM
I don't think it will happend soon :( :( :|.
As some say : "It's going to be much worse , before it get's any better"...

fdt
06-05-2004, 01:25 PM
I don't think it will happend soon :( :( :|My son is 4 years old... p-)

cut
06-05-2004, 01:39 PM
cut wrote:

after all the BBC here is unfairly accused of being anti-semitic because it referrs to palestinians that attack soldiers as militants and not terrorists, which is perfectly correct in terms of the true meaning.

The problem is when they refer to palestinians that get in a civilean bus and explode themselves as militants and not terrorists. the problem is when theres a terror act they saying its all the fault of Israel, the problem is that they accept the terror as a legetimte tactic for the palestinians, basicly what they are saying is that the pal' have every right to kill any Israeli they see. And if you can make 1+1 you understans that what they are saying is that Israelis desreve to die.

and with concetion to BBC or without it, just for you to know, threwout history the antisemic people always said that they kill jews because they deserve it.

Sorry no, I find highly insulting, Suicide bombers are not referred to as militants, hamas might be referred to as a militant group but then so are the FARC, this bull**** about the BBC wanting israelis/jews dead is a foul and disgusting accusation, if you believe that you are delluded.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-05-2004, 01:46 PM
and with concetion to BBC or without it, just for you to know, threwout history the antisemic people always said that they kill jews because they deserve it.
Boy oh boy do you know so little about the BBC's history, its worth noting that the extreme right in the UK call the BBC the "Jewish voice".

hey
06-05-2004, 01:58 PM
cut:

Suicide bombers are not referred to as militants

I once heard a BBC report where suicide bombers refered as militants.


this bull**** about the BBC wanting israelis/jews dead

I didn't say that. Don't twist my words.
I said BBC saying things that can indacte they think terror and killing of innocent Israelis is a legetime way of fighting for the palestinians. meaning - israeli innocents dead is ok.

hey
06-05-2004, 02:06 PM
Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

Boy oh boy do you know so little about the BBC's history, its worth noting that the extreme right in the UK call the BBC the "Jewish voice".

This fact doesn't make things better, only worse. :|

cut
06-05-2004, 02:08 PM
cut:

Suicide bombers are not referred to as militants

I once heard a BBC report where suicide bombers refered as militants. I watch or read BBC news everyday and it must be a very rare occurance





this bull**** about the BBC wanting israelis/jews dead

I didn't say that. Don't twist my words.
I said BBC saying things that can indacte they think terror and killing of innocent Israelis is a legetime way of fighting for the palestinians. meaning - israeli innocents dead is ok.

well that is exactly the same whether you think that the BBC want israelis dead or simply think they deserve is equally as bad and frankly disgusting.

the BBC reffers to the mehdi army as militants or the remains of the taliban as militants I supposed that according to you that the BBC believe that when they attack british soldiers or officials that is ok? anti-semitism my arse.

gilgoul
06-05-2004, 02:09 PM
Poor people. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians would make Hitler proud. Way to go Israel.

Let me tell you a little story . It's story from the 1992 , the first gulf war . In those days , IDF was still in Gaza . During those days , Scuds were falling in Israel and Saudi Arabia . One day , after a friday prair demonstration started to form in Rafah , and they astarted to shout in favor of Saddam , blessed the falling of Scuds and so on ... On the Egyptian Rafah they saw what is going on in Israeli side , and they started to mass the same way , shouting "bless Saddam , send more Scuds on Israel" , started to throw rocks and so on . On Israeli side , soldiers came , and when situation started to get hot , they used tear gas . On Egypt side , there were 3 Egyptian soldiers (or Policemen) . They looked at that rally , and radio their headquarters . After several minutes a Geep came , with a machine gun . Machine gun fired . Instantly , everybody got quiet and organised , and went home .

Learn your own lesson from this , idiot , and don't dare to call us Nazies .

You are from Canada ? Better find out why your government financed the civil war in Sudan and it's war crimes without sounding a peep (look for Talisman company and it's investment in Sudan ) ,and then come back to me , allrighty ?

It was exaCLTLY THE SAME SCENARIO IN 1988 when the first intifadah saterd, riot in israeli occupied GAza, and egyptian rafiah and al arish.
for two days you would hear the MG on the egyptian side, no official kill record, but for the list quiet.

cut
06-05-2004, 02:12 PM
Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

Boy oh boy do you know so little about the BBC's history, its worth noting that the extreme right in the UK call the BBC the "Jewish voice".

This fact doesn't make things better, only worse. :|

if the was trully anti-semitic then real anti-semites would be calling them the jewish voice now would they?

the fact that there are anti-semites is no suprise there is a small number in all countries. And it is a small number, any political success of the likes of the BNP does not represent an increase in anti-semitism, if anything it's islmophobia and xenophobia directed towards immigrants.

AirZone
06-05-2004, 02:21 PM
You know I saw in the news about our Apache pilot's and you see couple of scenrios when some terrorists lights up a Kasam and fires it while some kids played not far away from it and you hear and see in the communcation and in the Apacha cross they are not shooting or targeting it or nothing (with 30MM canon they could take them out) and just waiting.. or in another one when they target a Jihad house they are watching for any civilan activies and when they want to shot they abord it because some car drived not far from it and when it gone they shot it...more aggersive and unhuman than some other Apache pilots that shot the **** outta people that they suspected they are terrorists in Iraq...but of course ****s happen :roll:

and the Israelis/Jews/Devils/Evil Doers/Terrorists/Nazi (call your pick) killing inoccent people because they love to :roll:

cut
06-05-2004, 02:25 PM
You know I saw in the news about our Apache pilot's and you see couple of scenrios when some terrorists lights up a Kasam and fires it while some kids played not far away from it and you hear and see in the communcation and in the Apacha cross they are not shooting or targeting it or nothing (with 30MM canon they could take them out) and just waiting.. or in another one when they target a Jihad house they are watching for any civilan activies and when they want to shot they abord it because some car drived not far from it and when it gone they shot it...more aggersive and unhuman than some other Apache pilots that shot the **** outta people that they suspected they are terrorists in Iraq...but of course ****s happen :roll:

and the Israelis/Jews/Devils/Evil Doers/Terrorists/Nazi (call your pick) killing inoccent people because they love to :roll:

what news?

AirZone
06-05-2004, 02:34 PM
You know I saw in the news about our Apache pilot's and you see couple of scenrios when some terrorists lights up a Kasam and fires it while some kids played not far away from it and you hear and see in the communcation and in the Apacha cross they are not shooting or targeting it or nothing (with 30MM canon they could take them out) and just waiting.. or in another one when they target a Jihad house they are watching for any civilan activies and when they want to shot they abord it because some car drived not far from it and when it gone they shot it...more aggersive and unhuman than some other Apache pilots that shot the **** outta people that they suspected they are terrorists in Iraq...but of course ****s happen :roll:

and the Israelis/Jews/Devils/Evil Doers/Terrorists/Nazi (call your pick) killing inoccent people because they love to :roll:

what news?

Channel 22 news (Israeli) it was about the Apache pilots and how they feel about thier job each..

hey
06-05-2004, 02:36 PM
cut wrote:

if the was trully anti-semitic then real anti-semites would be calling them the jewish voice now would they?

To answer this qeustion I need to know the reasons why they call them the jewish voice.


Anyway I just wanted to point the problems that i see in BBC. I didn't decide that they are antisemic and I didn't decide that they are not.

cut
06-05-2004, 02:45 PM
cut wrote:

if the was trully anti-semitic then real anti-semites would be calling them the jewish voice now would they?

To answer this qeustion I need to know the reasons why they call them the jewish voice.


Anyway I just wanted to point the problems that i see in BBC. I didn't decide that they are antisemic and I didn't decide that they are not.

so according to you it is a problem that the BBC reffers to palestinans or the taliban as militants? It is not using the word terrorism lightly as I said before terrorism is referred to as terrorism with the BBC attacks against armed forces are very rarely called a terrorist attack, I think the marine barracks bombing in Beirut was quite rightly. But this is not limited to Israel even in Northern Ireland it was the case.

edit: btw I don't know why the BBC is called the Jewish Voice by anti-semites, a guess would be that a number high profile people in the media happen to be jewish and I'm sure the BBC is no exception.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-05-2004, 04:03 PM
To answer this qeustion I need to know the reasons why they call them the jewish voice.
There has always been a significant number of Jewish folk in the BBC and the extreme right in the UK has picked up on this on occasion.

Javehn
06-05-2004, 05:01 PM
I don't know much about BBC , and the only program there that I watch from time to time there is "Hard talk" , but what they did to me (or rather some blond mother ****ing reporter) I will never forget . I lost respect for reporters in general , and for BBC .

hey
06-05-2004, 06:59 PM
cut wrote :

so according to you it is a problem that the BBC reffers to palestinans or the taliban as militants? It is not using the word terrorism lightly as I said before terrorism is referred to as terrorism with the BBC attacks against armed forces are very rarely called a terrorist attack, I think the marine barracks bombing in Beirut was quite rightly. But this is not limited to Israel even in Northern Ireland it was the case.

Hamas is a terror organization. I believe we all agree about it.
When the Hamas send people to kill innocent civilens this people are terrorists. we all agree about it. When this people are being stoped by Israeli soldiers then they are militants? hard question? I don't think so.
All the members of a terror organization are terrorists. that the concept of the thing.
All palestinien armed organizations conducted attacks against Israeli civiliens. Non of them have the right to be called militants.


btw I don't know why the BBC is called the Jewish Voice by anti-semites, a guess would be that a number high profile people in the media happen to be jewish and I'm sure the BBC is no exception.

Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

There has always been a significant number of Jewish folk in the BBC and the extreme right in the UK has picked up on this on occasion.

Thanks for the answers.

acorrding to this the fact that BBC are called the Jewish Voice doesn't have any connection to the way they cover the Israeli-palestinien conflict. So this fact not helping you with your case.

SeanAshi
06-05-2004, 09:11 PM
If the Palestinian Authority would do their job then Israel wouldn't have to resort to these methods.

cut
06-05-2004, 10:08 PM
I don't know much about BBC , and the only program there that I watch from time to time there is "Hard talk" , but what they did to me (or rather some blond mother f*** reporter) I will never forget . I lost respect for reporters in general , and for BBC .

what happened?

cut
06-05-2004, 10:17 PM
cut wrote :

so according to you it is a problem that the BBC reffers to palestinans or the taliban as militants? It is not using the word terrorism lightly as I said before terrorism is referred to as terrorism with the BBC attacks against armed forces are very rarely called a terrorist attack, I think the marine barracks bombing in Beirut was quite rightly. But this is not limited to Israel even in Northern Ireland it was the case.

Hamas is a terror organization. I believe we all agree about it.
When the Hamas send people to kill innocent civilens this people are terrorists. we all agree about it. When this people are being stoped by Israeli soldiers then they are militants? hard question? I don't think so.
All the members of a terror organization are terrorists. that the concept of the thing.
All palestinien armed organizations conducted attacks against Israeli civiliens. Non of them have the right to be called militants.


btw I don't know why the BBC is called the Jewish Voice by anti-semites, a guess would be that a number high profile people in the media happen to be jewish and I'm sure the BBC is no exception.

Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

There has always been a significant number of Jewish folk in the BBC and the extreme right in the UK has picked up on this on occasion.

Thanks for the answers.

acorrding to this the fact that BBC are called the Jewish Voice doesn't have any connection to the way they cover the Israeli-palestinien conflict. So this fact not helping you with your case.

simple as this:

attacks soldiers=>militants (except in certain cases, such as Beirut)
attacks civilians=>terrorists

accept it or not that is the english language definition and that is how the BBC will report it.

Also people that are part of a terrorist organisation can be called militants for example foreigners brought in to fight with the Mehdi army even if they are brought in by al qaeda are militants if they fight coalition troops.

Also the fact that the BBC is called the jewish voice by anti-semitist does indicate that the BBC is not anti-semitic but objective as it is required to be by the government.

seruriermarshal
06-05-2004, 10:20 PM
cut wrote :

so according to you it is a problem that the BBC reffers to palestinans or the taliban as militants? It is not using the word terrorism lightly as I said before terrorism is referred to as terrorism with the BBC attacks against armed forces are very rarely called a terrorist attack, I think the marine barracks bombing in Beirut was quite rightly. But this is not limited to Israel even in Northern Ireland it was the case.

Hamas is a terror organization. I believe we all agree about it.
When the Hamas send people to kill innocent civilens this people are terrorists. we all agree about it. When this people are being stoped by Israeli soldiers then they are militants? hard question? I don't think so.
All the members of a terror organization are terrorists. that the concept of the thing.
All palestinien armed organizations conducted attacks against Israeli civiliens. Non of them have the right to be called militants.


btw I don't know why the BBC is called the Jewish Voice by anti-semites, a guess would be that a number high profile people in the media happen to be jewish and I'm sure the BBC is no exception.

Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

There has always been a significant number of Jewish folk in the BBC and the extreme right in the UK has picked up on this on occasion.

Thanks for the answers.

acorrding to this the fact that BBC are called the Jewish Voice doesn't have any connection to the way they cover the Israeli-palestinien conflict. So this fact not helping you with your case.

simple as this:

attacks soldiers=>militants (except in certain cases, such as Beirut)
attacks civilians=>terrorists

accept it or not that is the english language definition and that is how the BBC will report it.

Also people that are part of a terrorist organisation can be called militants for example foreigners brought in to fight with the Mehdi army even if they are brought in by al qaeda are militants if they fight coalition troops.

Also the fact that the BBC is called the jewish voice by anti-semitist does indicate that the BBC is not anti-semitic but objective as it is required to be by the government.

If support attacks civilians then = ?

cut
06-05-2004, 10:22 PM
cut wrote :

so according to you it is a problem that the BBC reffers to palestinans or the taliban as militants? It is not using the word terrorism lightly as I said before terrorism is referred to as terrorism with the BBC attacks against armed forces are very rarely called a terrorist attack, I think the marine barracks bombing in Beirut was quite rightly. But this is not limited to Israel even in Northern Ireland it was the case.

Hamas is a terror organization. I believe we all agree about it.
When the Hamas send people to kill innocent civilens this people are terrorists. we all agree about it. When this people are being stoped by Israeli soldiers then they are militants? hard question? I don't think so.
All the members of a terror organization are terrorists. that the concept of the thing.
All palestinien armed organizations conducted attacks against Israeli civiliens. Non of them have the right to be called militants.


btw I don't know why the BBC is called the Jewish Voice by anti-semites, a guess would be that a number high profile people in the media happen to be jewish and I'm sure the BBC is no exception.

Bacilluspolymyxa wrote:

There has always been a significant number of Jewish folk in the BBC and the extreme right in the UK has picked up on this on occasion.

Thanks for the answers.

acorrding to this the fact that BBC are called the Jewish Voice doesn't have any connection to the way they cover the Israeli-palestinien conflict. So this fact not helping you with your case.

simple as this:

attacks soldiers=>militants (except in certain cases, such as Beirut)
attacks civilians=>terrorists

accept it or not that is the english language definition and that is how the BBC will report it.

Also people that are part of a terrorist organisation can be called militants for example foreigners brought in to fight with the Mehdi army even if they are brought in by al qaeda are militants if they fight coalition troops.

Also the fact that the BBC is called the jewish voice by anti-semitist does indicate that the BBC is not anti-semitic but objective as it is required to be by the government.

If support attacks civilians then = ?

what would you call people who supported the IRA in the US? I would not call them terrorist, terrorist sympathisers maybe.

SOG
06-05-2004, 11:59 PM
what would you call people who supported the IRA in the US? I would not call them terrorist, terrorist sympathisers maybe.

the friends of my enemy are my enemy. who will give them shelter, training, funds, meals, praise and resources? a sympathiser is a wannabe, and if he was in a different place then he just may become a somebody.

so if OBL attacked a non supportive afghan army he would be a militant not a terrorist?

if a rapist changes his MO and begins to murder, it no longer makes him a rapist?

nah. justs adds to the christmas list of reasons to kill em.

RavenW
06-06-2004, 12:06 AM
Jews, look at the people you're talking with...

ASSASSIN
06-06-2004, 12:35 AM
And people wonder what drives men to fight back any way they can by blowing themselves up in suicide bombings. If someone did all that to my family/house/neighborhood, i would fight back any way i could too.

This post has allready turned into a stupid flame war about which media organization is anti semetic/zionist. But why has no one asked what the hell israeli armored bullzoders were doing plowing down homes of innocent outcasts of society, and that troubles me the most. What possible excuse could there be for demolishing REFUGEE camps. The sad thing is that it happens so often that im surprised no one has coined a term for it.

RavenW
06-06-2004, 12:40 AM
innocent outcasts of society

...

RavenW
06-06-2004, 12:46 AM
Wouldn't it be great if all these "humanists" were just gently picked up and lowered slowly into Gaza?

Kinda like that scene with a cow in first "Jurassic Park"... :)

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/564_1086497377_jurassic.gif http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/564_1086497634_jurassic2.jpg

SeanAshi
06-06-2004, 12:53 AM
Humanity is in deep ****.

fdt
06-06-2004, 04:54 AM
Kahane was right?

Javehn
06-06-2004, 05:43 AM
Kahane was right?

Kahane is asshole . His newphew serving in the IDF by the way , as a brigade commander , and he is an excellent officer . Really different from his uncle . So close , but so different .

gilgoul
06-13-2004, 11:34 AM
Kahane was right?

Kahane was a shame, a real asshole, but WTF his "theories" have to do with the grounding of buildings sheltering terrorist or smuggling activities?