Arabs would voluntarily leave Israel?

[rwak9]

I know I'm treading on thin ice here, and someone is probably going to accuse me of flame bait. But here goes:

Do you think that the eventual resolution of the demographic threat posed to Israel by the millions of unloyal Arabs within its borders might someday be resolved by them all simply leaving in droves as many did in 1948? In such a situation, perhaps a league of Arab nations will surround Israel and doom would look imminent for Israel. Or perhaps, they will just take financial compensation at some point - but that seems unlikely to even be proffered.

[Holycrusader]

Do you think that the eventual resolution of the demographic threat posed to Israel by the millions of unloyal Arabs within its borders might someday be resolved by them all simply leaving in droves as many did in 1948?

And how would you convice them to leaving their life in Israel?

[LRPV]

Ok, I'll say this is somehow serious. Though I am somewhat bemused by your question. I will assume you (makes an ASS out of U and ME) refer to the so-called demographic time-bomb.

The Israeli prediction is that in 2050-60 20% of the population will be Arab. 20% will be Orthodox Jewish. That leaves a lot of scope for growth in other areas, especially secular Jews.

Unless the 2 State solution is enacted AND the new State of Palestine becomes economically more attractive than Israel, why would Arabs leave?

You are indeed treading on thin ice if you suggest a "departure bonus" for emmigrating Arabs. However on a personal level I don't find this unpalatable. Remember its a choice issue with incentives. The problem arises if it becomes a forced move to the new State.

How this will be handled is anyones guess.

[Moledet]

And how would you convice them to leaving their life in Israel?
You offer them money.
Right now most Arabs won't leave but in a few years when the elders die they might choose to emigrate to North America or Europe.
I guess that before such a law is passed they will first try to limit the Arab growth by not allowing more than one wife (it's allowed for non Jews) and also drop the huge sums of money given to families with over 5 children.

[rwak9]

And how would you convice them to leaving their life in Israel?

Well, in the first situation, they would leave so as to get out of the way of conquering Arab armies that would attempt to destroy Israel. They did so in 1948. In the second situation, the financial incentive would suffice. There are numerous studies already that show that most Arabs would leave if offered compensation - and not even as much as whats supposed to go to the Jews expelled from Gush Katif in Gaza.

[rwak9]

I will assume you (makes an ASS out of U and ME) refer to the so-called demographic time-bomb.

No, that's a whole other issue. Even without the time-bomb scenario, the status-quo of having a fifth-column is a time-bomb in it of itself.


You are indeed treading on thin ice if you suggest a "departure bonus" for emmigrating Arabs.

That is certainly an incentive I support offering but it is not the purpose of my post.

[LRPV]

Ok, then I'm either a bit thick (very likely) or I miss your point...

What is it you wish to discuss?





NB: 2nd bottle of port...you've been warned. :)

[Ordie]

San Francisco already has the highest population of Arab Christians outside of Israel. A local cafe owner claims his former home is part of Lod Airport. Ironically the local Israeli Consul General is Arab.

Many are US Citizens and travel back and forth freely. I had the honor of serving with Saheeb Erekat's (PA Negotiating Team) cousin in the US Navy. Good people.

[LRPV]

Somehow I don't think Christian Arabs are the population in discussion....p-)

[rwak9]

Ok, then I'm either a bit thick (very likely) or I miss your point...

What is it you wish to discuss?


NB: 2nd bottle of port...you've been warned. :)

I thought I was clear that the issue I wish to and am discussing is how the demographic threat to Israel might eventually be resolved.

I didn't understand your last statement.

[LRPV]

I thought I was clear that the issue I wish to and am discussing is how the demographic threat to Israel might eventually be resolved.

I didn't understand your last statement.


1. Obviously not clear enough for a pissed Aussie.

2. Warning. Do not get in a debate with a pissed Aussie. Logic can be defeated.:)

[Moledet]

San Francisco already has the highest population of Arab Christians outside of Israel. A local cafe owner claims his former home is part of Lod Airport. Ironically the local Israeli Consul General is Arab.

Possible but the Brits built the airport (RAF Lydda).

[tanks_alot]

Two things:

1. The demographic issue does not take into account the constant immigration of Jews into Israel. if we ignored the immigration issue then according to similar demographic speculations in 1949, when the Jewish - Arab population margin was far smaller then today, then i'm probably late for paryer in the local mosque.

2. If we go into science fiction for a second, then if some day Israel and the Palestinians will sign a peace treaty and a Palestinian state would rise, then we could do a land swap, the Palestinians get Arab - Israeli towns and villages which are geographically consistent and Israel officially annexes the West Bank settlement pockets.

The Israeli Arabs might not like it because they enjoy the Israeli economy, education and freedom of speech, but we don't like it that they don't do military service and refuse to even do national service, have more children then they can support and then have the state support them instead and openly support our enemies. so they might as well join them.

[IDF_TANKER]

Vote Lieberman.

[Moledet]

Vote Lieberman.
More like Feyglin or Marzel.

[NowPlaying]

Arabs would voluntarily leave Israel?


Why would they want to leave their land? How about Israel leaving Palestine?

[Moledet]

Why would they want to leave their land? How about Israel leaving Palestine?
Because they will get a lot of money and that way dramatically improve their economic status and will go on to suck on the **** of socialist Europe or Canada.

[rwak9]

Why would they want to leave their land? How about Israel leaving Palestine?

Simply put, because its not their land. The Arabs flocked to Israel only when the Jews arrived in the early 19th century and began to make the land prosper. They came for the jobs. Also, until 1948, the majority of Jerusalem, including the old city, was Jewish.

Also, where and what is "Palestine"? Until 1948, Jews were called Palestinians. "Palestine" is a name given to Israel by the Romans to obscure the Jewish connection to the land. Does all your history begin in '48? We have been there for thousands of years.

[Ordie]

Simply put, because its not their land.

It's God's land.

[Ordie]

The Israeli Arabs might not like it because they enjoy the Israeli economy, education and freedom of speech, but we don't like it that they don't do military service and refuse to even do national service, have more children then they can support and then have the state support them instead and openly support our enemies. so they might as well join them.
It's sound like a similar privilage given to the Ultra Orthodox who do not serve in the military, have more children, and the state support them and throw rocks and kick out women at fellow Israelis from public buses.

The existing system of government allocates resources based more on partisan concerns rather than parochial needs. That is to say, representatives do not represent districts or municipalities. Thus it is not surprising to see limited funding and allocation towards Arab/Palestinian municipalities as compared to Mea Sharim for example.

If Israel were to switch to a district/constituency representation, it would be a major paradigm shift. Israeli politicians would need to work for votes and deliver goods/services across confessional, ethnic, and religious lines.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Simply put, because its not their land. The Arabs flocked to Israel only when the Jews arrived in the early 19th century and began to make the land prosper.There is no basis for that claim.

When the european jews started arriving in late 19th century the constituted an insignifikant fraction of the population. Even in 1922 the jewish immigrants constituted only 1/10 of the population.

So sorry to say it. It is the jews that are the newscomers, or maybe returnees if you take romans times into account.

So the the arab popluation that was left over after the 1948 etnic cleansing, have every rigth to be where they are.

I think Israel should focus on giving incitaments to israelis living in the occupied east jerusalem and the west bank to return to israel, rather than worry about the israeli arabs.

Once a just peace have been concluded with the palestinians, im sure that there won't be much problems with the israeli arabs as long as they are treated equally, and israel takes responsibility for it's past actions.

[IDF_TANKER]

More like Feyglin or Marzel.

No, thank you.

[Moledet]

The existing system of government allocates resources based more on partisan concerns rather than parochial needs. That is to say, representatives do not represent districts or municipalities. Thus it is not surprising to see limited funding and allocation towards Arab/Palestinian municipalities as compared to Mea Sharim for example.

If Israel were to switch to a district/constituency representation, it would be a major paradigm shift. Israeli politicians would need to work for votes and deliver goods/services across confessional, ethnic, and religious lines.

The government allocates resources to towns that prove that they are trying to get better. When a town generates almost no tax, has tons of illegal building, doesn't pay electricity and water bills and is constantly in deficit the government will naturally won't give it as much as it might give to others.
Mea Sharim isn't a town, it's a neighborhood in Jerusalem. I guess you mean Ultra Orthodox in general, well the reason they get a lot of funding is current and former coalition deals. The Arab parties refuse to be in the coalition so they get no deals.

What you might get from such a system is zero representation of many sectors in the Israeli society. Arabs will have almost no representation same with Ultra Orthodox Jews, Russian immigrants, etc... You will get a Knesset made of almost exclusively Ashkenazi Jews.

P.S. there seem to be a shift in the Ultra Orthodox community, more of them discontinue their yeshiva studies and go to university. They realize themselves that not everyone can be great Torah scholars and it's actually better to become a successful lawyer than to teach Torah in an unknown yeshiva.

[Ordie]

The government allocates resources to towns that prove that they are trying to get better. When a town generates almost no tax, has tons of illegal building, doesn't pay electricity and water bills and is constantly in deficit the government will naturally won't give it as much as it might give to others.

From a public administration view point, there are ground to allocate more funding to marginal areas vs. penalizing them with limited funds. Just as you sow so shall you reap.

[Moledet]

From a public administration view point, there are ground to allocate more funding to marginal areas vs. penalizing them with limited funds. Just as you sow so shall you reap.
The government tends to help developing cities, but it requires that for the funding it gives there will be results when there are no results it refuses to allocate more money. The government can go as far as removing the mayor and installing a committee instead of him so the city will start producing results. It was done in Lod that is a mixed city but in Arab cities it's more complicated.

[Ordie]

The government tends to help developing cities, but it requires that for the funding it gives there will be results when there are no results it refuses to allocate more money. The government can go as far as removing the mayor and installing a committee instead of him so the city will start producing results. It was done in Lod that is a mixed city but in Arab cities it's more complicated.

Thanks for the explaination.

[rwak9]

There is no basis for that claim.

When the european jews started arriving in late 19th century the constituted an insignifikant fraction of the population. Even in 1922 the jewish immigrants constituted only 1/10 of the population.

So sorry to say it. It is the jews that are the newscomers, or maybe returnees if you take romans times into account.

So the the arab popluation that was left over after the 1948 etnic cleansing, have every rigth to be where they are.

I think Israel should focus on giving incitaments to israelis living in the occupied east jerusalem and the west bank to return to israel, rather than worry about the israeli arabs.

Once a just peace have been concluded with the palestinians, im sure that there won't be much problems with the israeli arabs as long as they are treated equally, and israel takes responsibility for it's past actions.

First of all, I don't know where you get your statistics but we have been there continuously for at least 3000 years. We are the only ones that have ever been sovereign over the land and the only people to EVER make Jerusalem their capital.

And there was no ethnic cleansing, as much as you'd like to believe so so as to justify your hatred of Israel. In '48, Ben Gurion implored the Arabs to stay in the new state, but the arabs let in droves because their leaders wished to make way for genocidal arab armies to push the Jews into the sea so that the Arabs would then return and take everything.

Israel treats Israeli Arabs equally, such as the term implies. Arabs living in Israel - including Jerusalem - have equal rights, ID card, voting rights and freedom of movement. And yet in most terror attacks, an Israeli arab is used for the abuse of his freedoms that is possible. For example, both tractor terrorists were gainfully employed Israeli Arabs with full right and freedom of movement. They chose to murder Jews regardless.

[rwak9]

It's sound like a similar privilage given to the Ultra Orthodox who do not serve in the military, have more children, and the state support them and throw rocks and kick out women at fellow Israelis from public buses.

Yes, but the Charedim are Jews who are part of the same nation. Not to mention, they don't blow up buses, aid and abet terrorism and commit other acts of high treason as is so commonplace among their Arab co-nationalists. Not to mention that Chareidim pay taxes as well as contribute socially, humanitarily and spiritually to the entire nation.

So any attempt to obfuscate the differences between Chareidim and fifth-columnist Arabs is absurd.

[sinophile]

Because they will get a lot of money and that way dramatically improve their economic status and will go on to suck on the **** of socialist Europe or Canada.

It works both ways... secular Jews who can get their paperwork (and even some who can't) are heading the US (mostly) and elsewhere as fast as El Al can fly them there. I've often thought the only thing holding back a mass exodus of secular Israelis to the US is America's immigration laws.

[Ordie]

It works both ways... secular Jews who can get their paperwork (and even some who can't) are heading the US (mostly) and elsewhere as fast as El Al can fly them there. I've often thought the only thing holding back a mass exodus of secular Israelis to the US is America's immigration laws.

There are many Israelis here in Silicon Valley. The key in the high tech business is to be near the source of funding (i.e. Sand Hill Road , Palo Alto) and talent in San Jose, Mtn. View, Stanford and UC Berkeley.

The joke here is to pitch your idea to a VC firm over breakfast, get the money before lunch, rent a 'plug & play' office space after lunch, and raid workers from other firms before dinner.

[iLikeFlickerstick]

Because they will get a lot of money and that way dramatically improve their economic status and will go on to suck on the **** of socialist Europe or Canada.

Why don't they stay and suck Israeli ****. Europe doesn't need more problems. I side with Germany and France & UK over Israel.

[Moledet]

It works both ways... secular Jews who can get their paperwork (and even some who can't) are heading the US (mostly) and elsewhere as fast as El Al can fly them there. I've often thought the only thing holding back a mass exodus of secular Israelis to the US is America's immigration laws.
Most of them return at the end because they prefer to grow the kids here.
Apart of a few years in history Israel always had more immigrants than emigrants.

[Qandil]

The way I know the Arabs, this not gonna happen, they think ISRAEL has been taken from them, and they want it back, besides, they dont have any other where to go to dude, you know what I mean?

[rwak9]

The way I know the Arabs, this not gonna happen, they think ISRAEL has been taken from them, and they want it back, besides, they dont have any other where to go to dude, you know what I mean?

They also want Spain back. Anywhere Arabs have ever been, they consider holy land. And Dude, its the Jews that have nowhere else to go, not the Arabs - they have at least 22 countries.

[frenchy]

Why would they leave ?

If the trend continues they will be more numerous than jews in Israel.:|
Once this is done, they can put their laws or more.

It's a statistic fact in almost all western countries : arabs are making more babies than westerners.

In europe, it's more problematic yet, because they come with immigration in addition.

[rwak9]

Why would they leave ?

If the trend continues they will be more numerous than jews in Israel.:|
Once this is done, they can put their laws or more.

It's a statistic fact in almost all western countries : arabs are making more babies than westerners.

In europe, it's more problematic yet, because they come with immigration in addition.

You definitely raise a serious issue, however, I think the demographic threat to Israel is a bit overrated. Even though, the status-quo is dangerous and unsustainable as it is.

[frenchy]

I just see what happens. Look at Kosovo, when arabs became a majority, what did they do ?

I think that, for israelis, if arabs become more numerous, it will be more difficult to control the situation.