Salim Mansur: Muslim Men and the Roots of Anger

[Adux]

Salim Mansur: Muslim Men and the Roots of Anger

Posted: July 29, 2008, 2:15 PM by Kelly McParland Full Comment (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/tags/Full+Comment/default.aspx), Salim Mansur (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/tags/Salim+Mansur/default.aspx)

Before resting its recent case against Mohammed Momin Khawaja under Canada’s Anti-Terrorism Act, the prosecution presented Momin’s former fiancée, Zeba Khan, as the final witness via a video link from Dubai. Ms. Khan reportedly stated in her testimony: “You will not meet a young Muslim man in the world who is not angry about something. Anyone who watches the news, if he wasn’t mad then, a) there’s something wrong with him, or b) he’s ignorant.”

Obviously, not all angry young Muslim men are engaging in violence — nor, of course, are all Muslims terrorists. But many terrorists are found to be Muslims. Ms. Khan’s remark purports to explain the linkage.

It is perhaps no coincidence that Mr. Khawaja has Pakistani roots. In recent years, Pakistan has become a haven for al-Qaeda terrorists. For longer than that, jihadis have recruited Pakistani boys and men to fight in Kashmir and Afghanistan. These brainwashed men may be volunteers headed out to fight infidel “invaders” and “occupiers” of Muslim lands, but it cannot be said that they are acting entirely on their own initiative.
These Muslims are responding to the political values and religious ideology promoted and financed by influential radicals. These values — reflected in Ms. Khan’s comment — provide the framework for the wider political discourse in Pakistan and across much of the Arab-Muslim world, as well.

I know Pakistani society quite intimately from studying and living among the Pakistani people. The Pakistani culture is based on collective loyalty to faith, history and politics. This makes it difficult for the country to keep up with the demands of the modern world.

I have also travelled in various other Muslim nations — from Algeria to Indonesia. Many of these societies, I’ve come to understand, are essentially failed states. Their cultures are mostly closed, authoritarian and patriarchal. While Muslim men of all ages can be genuinely friendly to strangers, theirs is a culture of boasting and quick tempers.

But when one engages them individually (especially younger men) in polite discussions of politics and history — even in a place such as Qom, Iran, whose most famous product is the late Ayatollah Khomeini — the mask falls and there is much sorrow expressed over how greatly the Muslim world has degenerated into a pathetic shadow of its past.

What is privately admitted cannot be publicly affirmed or discussed. The character of Muslim society is exemplified by the mosque culture, whereby the authority of the man on the pulpit is final and public dissent is disallowed.

Similarly, inside of homes, most discussions flow in one direction from the patriarchal centre of power and influence downwards. Any critical review or independent examination of controversial subjects is frowned upon, if not repressed. Anger in such circumstances is mostly an effect of the pent-up resentment bred of life in a society without any sort of freedom.

Khawaja Momin’s former fiancée is likely just as immersed in this culture as are the angry young Muslim men she speaks of. These men are their parents’ “jewels,” and given special care by mothers as their future protectors in a male-dominant society — while their fathers and imams angrily condemn the world around them for corrupting their faith and way of living.

This culture has been exported to Muslim immigrant enclaves in the West, including parts of our own country. In a very revealing book, The Islamist, Ed Husain — a former jihadi born and raised in Britain by parents from Bangladesh — discusses the culture of such enclaves in the making of angry young Muslim men. In the end, some head out to kill innocent civilians, as did the 2005 London suicide bombers.
This sort of disaster has not happened in Canada — yet. But it may, if we are not careful to monitor the rise of radicalism amongst the likes of Mohammed Momin Khawaja.

National Post

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/07/29/salim-mansur-muslim-men-and-the-roots-of-anger.aspx

[MG 3]

I, I want AK........ Blood..... Kill...... Aaaaarh!

[Adux]

I, I want AK........ Blood..... Kill...... Aaaaarh!

MG3,

There are some serious questions raised there, Living in 200 million muslim society i know the article holds water quite well. I was expecting some serious response from you, other than brushing aside the article, or is muslims devoid of problems at all uber-alles

[MG 3]

My G3 where? WHERE??????? Kill!! anger cant control.


On a more serious note it is without a doubt linked to Islam. For a Muslim to be killed a 1000km from here it pains me to death, so when Muslims are oppressed it causes us pain. As you can see by looking around the top oppressive conflicts today are being faced by Muslims.
In addition to that it is compounded by radicals that have taken root as a consequence of proxy wars that are sooooo vital to global affairs these days.

[Hollis]

My G3 where? WHERE??????? Kill!! anger cant control.


On a more serious note it is without a doubt linked to Islam. For a Muslim to be killed a 1000km from here it pains me to death, so when Muslims are oppressed it causes us pain. As you can see by looking around the top oppressive conflicts today are being faced by Muslims.
In addition to that it is compounded by radicals that have taken root as a consequence of proxy wars that are sooooo vital to global affairs these days.


Part of the interesting side effect, is that Muslims see Islam as being monolithic. Those Muslims who talk about Islamaphobia, will say non Muslims see Islam as being monolithic.

Seems they spend a lot of time on the pretense to hate or to justify their anger. Maybe pick up a book on the codependent family and the cycle of abuse.

It seems to me the only ones that are oppressing Muslims are other Muslims.

[MG 3]

Part of the interesting side effect, is that Muslims see Islam as being monolithic. Those Muslims who talk about Islamaphobia, will say non Muslims see Islam as being monolithic.

Seems they spend a lot of time on the pretense to hate or to justify their anger. Maybe pick up a book on the codependent family and the cycle of abuse.

It seems to me the only ones that are oppressing Muslims are other Muslims.

We definitely need to work on a few things before we blame the world but yeah we muslims are really bad in Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, blah blah.

[Erik Sleivöks]

Not being a Muslim myself, I am however looking at their religion and culture from a very close point of view, and I find the article quite good.

One of the main problems is probably that deep inside they know very well that they are on the wrong track, but blocked in a religion, a culture, and traditions that are “unfortunately” not very well adapted to life in the world of today, they often expresses anger and frustration against a society (western and occidental) that finally is working (functioning) much better than their own. In addition this western “enemy” society has cultural and moral references that are in some cases completely against their own (archaic) references that cannot be modified, even if deep inside they would like to.
All this together with a genuine belief in their religion that is constantly confronting everything they in reality would like to have or do.

It is enough to see the behavior of an Iranian business man while traveling in London or Paris and compare it with his behavior once back in Iran.

In Iran I am often confronted with finally “small” issues like the Islamic dress code (my wife is Iranian) or the “patriarch” structure of family relations.
Many Iranians are completely confused over the obviously completely outdated and ridiculous Islamic “scarf”, and their attachment to their religion and culture. Whenever I confront an Iranian man on this issue, he has only two options; either admit that his religion and culture is archaic and completely “silly”, or (since no modem and logic explanation is possible) burst in to an angry self-defense attitude that quickly becomes arrogant and menacing.

Needless to say that I avoid the subject as much as possible with strangers:roll:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

There's no point in trying to overanalyse this too much.

Basically their problem is that in islamic societies it's just not too easy for them to get a sh@g (especially the younger poorer guys).

[SoSo]

There's no point in trying to overanalyse this too much.

Basically their problem is that in islamic societies it's just not too easy for them to get a sh@g (especially the younger poorer guys).

That's exactly the problem: inequitable distribution of resources. A few rich older men have all the women to themselves, while the younger poor guys have none. ****** frustration is driving them crazy! Some of them (and the women too) turn to each other for release, as they have no other outlet. Islam forbids homo******ity, of course. But some Muslim societies turn a blind eye to discreet homosex among the young because they think it's a worthwhile price to pay for being able to segregate the sexes and preserve the virginity of unmarried girls, opon which familial honor depends.

[sikh_warrior]

i must say these days lots of things are being talked about related to islam.

from cats and dogs, ***, anger management, number of wives, etc

also i have seen that all over the world people are rushing to find stuff that makes them understand islam better. i say why doesnt muslims try to adjust and live with infidels and why its always the other way around?

MG3 bhaaji.....tusi vi kuch kahi yaar!

[Kaapeli]

also i have seen that all over the world people are rushing to find stuff that makes them understand islam better. i say why doesnt muslims try to adjust and live with infidels and why its always the other way around?

Understanding isn't same as liking and accepting.

[wigon]

i must say these days lots of things are being talked about related to islam.

from cats and dogs, ***, anger management, number of wives, etc

also i have seen that all over the world people are rushing to find stuff that makes them understand islam better. i say why doesnt muslims try to adjust and live with infidels and why its always the other way around?

MG3 bhaaji.....tusi vi kuch kahi yaar!


It is the other way around as well. 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims here in America seem pretty much assimilated into American culture. However they still practice their religion. Assimilation does not mean abandoning one's religion. Must Sikh's give up their religion and get rid of their turbans when they live in Western countries? No. Before you get angry about Muslims not assimilating, you might take a look at your own people. In America, we haven't had many problems with Muslims since 9/11 aside from a handful of nutjobs.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

thanx for the enlightment on this subject.

im against anyone asking for benefit on the basis of religion! wether sikhs or muslims or anyone else.

if sikhs are required to remove turbans for security reasons, im all for it. if a sikh is innocent and he is required to remove his turban for security reasons, he should go to a room ( to avoid embarsment in public view) with the security people and remove his turban and let it be searched.

using religion for owns benefit is wrong and whoever does is degrading their religion.

there you go!

[wigon]

Personally I think this article is horrible. The generalizations it makes are ALL BASED ON RADICALS! The only angry Muslims I've met are the ones who were Wahhabi/Salafi fundamentalists constantly yellling "BIDAH!!! HARRRAAAAAAAM!!!!" at every other Muslim.
Yet this author generalizes all Muslims like that. He claims to have travelled to Indonesia and lumps them in with the Arab countries by saying that they are failed states, authoritarian, patriarchal, and boastful. I lived in Indonesia for 2 & 1/2 years. Indonesia was a totalitrian regime under Suharto but is now a thriving democracy with the main ethnic group, the Javanese, being extremely non-boastful overall. Women also have tremendous political power at every level in their government and at home. I witnessed our grounds keeper (who lived in our servants quarters with his wife) get his ass beat by his wife. Javanese women are often as strong as the men and can hold their own.
To throw them in the same group as Algerians to me is insane.

Hollis, you are right that its mostly Muslims oppressing other Muslims. The ones doing the oppressing just like to use the West and the Jews as a scapegoat. However Muslims do not all believe Islam is monolithic. They will tell you that Islam IS one religion but if you ask them about the 4 Sunni madhhabs (schools of thought), Sufism, and Shi'a, then they admit that indeed Islam is far from united. Wahhabis (which is what this article focuses on exclusively) will tell you that there is only one type of Islam and that is Salafism. Many of them reject the idea of madhhabs and believe that they are the protectors of the true pure Islam and reject any innovation. This always amuses me when in fact do a tremendous amount of innovation (bidah) all the time in their interpretations and simply cherry pick what they like and don't like. They get really upset for example if you remind them that Mohammad (PBUH) worked for an older WOMAN before he married her. Even then she was his #1 advisor. Even worse, remind them that Aisha was the #1 narrator of hadiths amongst Sunnis (although she is hated by Shia). She was a teacher to men and played a powerful political and religious role in Islam's formation.
But nah, they don't want to hear that...

The reason such people are so angry is because they have refused to accept the other half of Islam which is Tasawuuf (sufism). They reject it because they misunderstand what it is or if they do apply it (such as the deobandi of Pakistan), they fail to implement one of the most important concepts in Tasawuuf which is conquering one's nafs (carnal desires/ego). Part of this is done through constant self-reflection and honesty towards one's self with the knowledge that Allah knows better then themselves who they are. These nafs are controlled by discipline, prayer, and the constant struggle in doing what is good towards those around you. Even the great Salafi scholar Ibm Tammiyah acknowledged this, but his writings on Tasawuuf are often completely removed from modern publications and translations into other languages. The Salafis only concentrate on what Ibn Tammiyah wrote against Sufi extremists who became hermits and who go a bit overboard. From those rants, they say that Islam rejects all Sufism. Because of this, they oppress Sufis on the grounds that Sufis are corrupters of their religion. Shi'a extremists likewise oppress Sufis in Iran.

My main point is that, if you, like this author, start generalizing all Muslims by using extremists as your example... well then of coarse you're going to think that all Muslims are raving mad lunatics that are beasts foaming at the mouth and calling for blood. But if you take time to study the diversity within Islam and with the Islamic cultures, you will find that they are far from monolithic.

(By the way I say Peace Be Upon Him or PBUH after mentioning their prophets name out of respect for the Muslims on this thread. I am not Muslim myself).

Wigon

[Erik Sleivöks]

Well… I can surely agree to that not all Muslims are extremists and that we should not generalize, but for some “unknown” reason it is only the Muslims that are hyper sensitive and susceptible about anything related to their religion.

I completely agree with Sikh Warrior and I think that it is time for the Muslims (in general and generalized) to put an effort in to understanding the other religions and cultures. If they could have been able to just a minimum of flexibility and understanding for other people, this world would have been a much better place.

[wigon]

Well… I can surely agree to that not all Muslims are extremists and that we should not generalize, but for some “unknown” reason it is only the Muslims that are hyper sensitive and susceptible about anything related to their religion.

I completely agree with Sikh Warrior and I think that it is time for the Muslims (in general and generalized) to put an effort in to understanding the other religions and cultures. If they could have been able to just a minimum of flexibility and understanding for other people, this world would have been a much better place.


You are right. But before asking this of others, we should ourselves do this. For the most part I have only seen non-stop ranting against Islam on this forum... and the same people wonder why Muslims get so defensive and offended when they are characterized as all being terrorists and deceivers practicing taqqiyah.

If BOTH non-Muslims and Muslims did this, you are right, the world would be a much better place. But it's much easier to simply hate and fear what we don't know. Hatred of "the other" and natural competition is at the root of human warfare. We just don't want to admit that at the core of our humanity, we are animals bound by natural laws of survival. The special gift we have as humans is that we can rise above that and overcome this through love and patience for even those who are different then us. The question is... Should we?

Wigon

[Hollis]

We definitely need to work on a few things before we blame the world but yeah we muslims are really bad in Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Iraq, blah blah.


Well… I can surely agree to that not all Muslims are extremists and that we should not generalize, but for some “unknown” reason it is only the Muslims that are hyper sensitive and susceptible about anything related to their religion.




MG3 maybe compare the two quotes. What does it mean to say "WE".........

As a Non-Muslim I find this a interesting paradox. Reportedly there is something around 1 billion Muslims. The only commonality is that they call themselves Muslims. Now what about Apostates. According to Islam, apostates are not Muslims. When we have sects of Islam declaring other sects of Islam as non-Muslim, that 1 billion in numbers decreases.

When Muslims declare like you have, All Muslims as in "WE Muslims" are the same, it is normal for non-Muslims to group all Muslims into the same group, that means all those who comment terror, murder, etc are now the same as the innocent, law abiding, moderate Muslims. In a way you are playing right into AQ hands and those who are "Islamaphobic".

I don't believe Islam is monolithic (meaning all Muslims are the same).

[wigon]

Its no real mystery. Just like good and bad Christians, there are good and bad Muslims. Technically speaking, if they took the Shahada (the declaration of faith) then they are Muslims. The declaration of Takfir upon another Muslim is meant for Muslims that completely pervert the religion by doing such things as declaring a new prophet (like the Nation of Islam in the United States). NOI members are not Muslims even though they call themselves that because they essentially reject half of the Shahada that Mohammed(PBUH) is the messenger of Allah.

MG3 can correct me if I am wrong, but yes Islamic terrorists are still Muslims. They are however extremely bad Muslims in some ways (but often good in others such as praying 5 times of day and giving to charity). The major problem is their ignorance of basic rules of Islamic warfare that do not allow for the killing of innocent people. There are also many books by historical Islamic scholars regarding proper behavior for Muslims living in non-Muslim countries and they do not suggest sabotage, assassination, or any other such actions to destroy the country they live in.
When Jihad was waged in the past, it was army vs army.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

While Saudi king promotes interfaith dialogue, Saudi textbooks still teach hatred and intolerance of everything -- and everyone -- non-Islamic
True enough. For all the Saudi king's "gestures" of peace and goodwill, what Saudi children are being taught on a daily basis says it all. “New Report Shows Saudi Ministry Textbooks Still Teach Extreme Intolerance,” from Market Watch, July 15:

Today the Center for Religious Freedom of the Hudson Institute released a 90-page report (http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/textbooks_final_for_pdf.pdf), 2008 Update: Saudi Arabia's Curriculum of Intolerance, with a foreword by R. James Woolsey. It was prepared in consultation with the Washington-based Institute for Gulf Affairs.

This report compares the 2007-2008 textbooks that are currently posted on the website of the Saudi Ministry of Education with those analyzed in our 2006 study, and shows that the same violent and intolerant teachings against other religious believers noted in 2006 remain in the current texts.

They assert that unbelievers, such as Christians, Jews, and Muslims who do not share Wahhabi beliefs and practices, are hated "enemies." Global jihad as an "effort to wage war against the unbelievers" is also promoted in the Ministry's textbooks: "In its general usage, 'jihad' is divided into the following categories: ...Wrestling with the infidels by calling them to the faith and battling against them." No argument is made here that such references to jihad mean only spiritual and defensive struggles.

Lessons remain that Jews and Christians are apes and swine, Jews conspire to "gain sole control over the world," the Christian Crusades never ended, the American universities of Cairo and Beirut are part of the continuing Crusades, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are historical fact, and on Judgment Day "the rocks or the trees" will call out to Muslims to kill the Jews.

They teach that it is permissible for a Muslim to kill an "apostate," an "adulterer," and those practicing "major polytheism." Shiites are among those identified as "polytheists." One lesson states that "it is not permissible to violate the blood, property, or honor of the unbeliever who makes a compact with the Muslims," but is pointedly silent on whether security guarantees are extended to non-Muslims without such a compact. Other lessons demonize members of the Baha'i and Ahmadiyya groups.

A lesson from a tenth grade text now posted on the Saudi Ministry's website sanctions the killing of homo******s and discusses methods for doing so.

In the lessons examined in this report, the Saudi government discounts or ignores passages in the Qur'an to support tolerance.

All of these textbooks have been reissued at least once and all but two of them reissued twice, yet overall the changes to the passages in question have been minimal, and the degree of substantive change has been negligible. Taken together, the report concludes, revisions in the currently-posted texts amount to moving around the furniture, not cleaning the house.


Posted by Raymond at July 16, 2008 8:01 AM
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[sikh_warrior]

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080715/PAGETHREE/289414589/1119

Having faith in tolerance

Craig Nelson and Caryle Murphy

Last Updated: July 15. 2008 10:35PM UAE / July 15. 2008 6:35PM GMT
http://adimg.sv.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AD&Date=20080715&Category=PAGETHREE&ArtNo=289414589&Ref=AR&Profile=1119&Maxw=300&Maxh=200 Left to right, Abdullah al Turki, the secretary general of the Muslim World League, King Abdullah, the ruler of Saudi Arabia, and King Juan Carlos I of Spain will meet for an interfaith forum in Madrid. AP, AP, AFP

MADRID and RIYADH // When the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia made a state visit to Britain in 1987, he was decorated by Queen Elizabeth II with a medallion that bore, among other symbols, a Christian cross.

The hue and cry back home was immediate, said Mustafa Alani, director of Security and Terrorism Studies at the Gulf Research Centre in Dubai. “They made him out to be a sinner.”

How times have changed.

In November, his successor and half-brother, King Abdullah, was the first Saudi monarch to hold talks with Pope Benedict XVI. He was widely seen back home warmly shaking hands with Christianity’s most influential leader in the heart of Christendom’s most exalted enclave, the Vatican.
“Most people in Saudi Arabia believed in what he was doing. Some didn’t,” said Hassan al Ahdal, a spokesman for the Muslim World League, which is based in Mecca.

Today, in another first for a Saudi leader, King Abdullah will convene Muslim, Christian and Jewish clerics in the Spanish capital for talks aimed at reducing religious intolerance, improving Islam’s image and restoring respect for religious values.
Juan Carlos I, the king of Spain, is to join him in opening the three-day forum, to which nearly 250 religious figures have been invited.

The Saudi king’s choice of Madrid as the location to discuss how to defuse interfaith tensions was no coincidence, League officials here said. Between 711 and 1492, Spain boasted one of the great Muslim civilisations, with a caliphate centred in Cordovain, now Corboda. Under Islamic rule, Muslims, Christians and Jews managed to live alongside each other peaceably, if not always equally.
Interfaith discussions during the heyday of ecumenism in the 1970s and 1980s focused on such theological issues as the nature of God, the individual and society before lapsing into a word-induced stupor. “Theological fiddling while Rome burned,” said Paul Kintner, a Roman Catholic professor of world religions at Union Theological in New York.

The September 2001 attacks in the US ended the lull. A series of bombings by Islamic militants in Saudi Arabia two years later intensified efforts by the country’s leaders to reckon with their home-grown extremists.
King Abdullah’s interfaith initiatives are one result, although this time the focus is not on theology but on ethics and issues of common concern, such as terrorism, human rights violations and environmental degradation.

“We live in a world that’s a small village. You have to have mutual understanding and co-operation, or perish,” Mr Ahdal said.

For all of this high-mindedness, this interfaith initiative represents something of a political test for King Abdullah at home, as he juggles his evident desire for more openness with fears of upsetting hardline Wahhabis, who make up an influential sector of the religious establishment. This sector has traditionally regarded Shiite Muslims as heretics and shunned contact with non-Muslims out of fear that their religious and cultural identity would be diluted.
So far, however, this group has been muted in its criticism of the Madrid gathering.

Their most public display of disagreement came on the eve of the Mecca Conference last month, when 22 hardline Wahhabi clerics issued a statement accusing Shiites of destabilising Muslim countries and humiliating Sunnis.

More than 80 Shiites responded with their own statement, reproaching the Wahhabis for attempting to spoil the king’s dialogue initiative.
“How could you let your statement … coincide with the interfaith dialogue that the King has called for and exerted much effort into?” they asked. “Would it not have been better … of you to have called for unity?” Your approach, they said, “has absolutely no bearing on the principles and morals enjoined by Islam”.

Hassan al Maliki, a Sunni religious scholar who was fired from the Saudi education ministry after clashing with hardliners over references to non-Muslims in school textbooks, said in a recent interview that opponents of the king’s outreach could not undermine his initiative.
“The opposition is not strong; if the ruler wants it to happen, it will,” Mr Maliki said.

“Some in the Wahhabi establishment are saying in sermons and on the internet that this is a concession, but their logic is sectarian … We should not be afraid of this movement and others should not stop any dialogue because of this minority.”

Khalid al Dakhil, a sociologist at King Saud University, said one of the reasons for King Abdullah’s Madrid initiative is that he “does realise the danger that fundamentalism and terrorism represent for the region as a whole, and for relations between the kingdom and the rest of the world”.
Mr Dakhil added: “There are those against this move … but they are not vocal.

“It’s not fashionable to take [an anti-dialogue] position … They seem to represent now a small minority.”

Mr Dakhil said that in addition to external outreach, Saudis also need to nurture more dialogue at home.

“I know one thing,” he said. “We in Saudi Arabia also need to take care of dialogue” among the “different trends – religious, cultural and intellectual – inside Saudi Arabia”.
More broadly, supporters of the Madrid conference and other interfaith conversations need positive reactions from each other to assuage critics in their own camps, participants and observers said.

A test for Saudi representatives will no doubt come when they are asked why they continue to ban the construction of churches in Saudi Arabia and the worship by Christians in the kingdom.

For their part, many Muslims still recall the pope’s lecture at the University of Regensburg in Germany in Sept 2006, when the pope quoted a Byzantine Christian emperor saying the Prophet Mohammed brought “things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”. The comments came 14 months before he met with King Abdullah.
A test for non-Muslims will be their ability to head off any repetition of this or the Danish cartoon controversy and their reaction to it if it happens, Dr Alani said.

“King Abdullah is putting his neck on the line … These insults will undermine him and any leader who is trying to open society.”

[sikh_warrior]

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia had a good idea in convening an interfaith conference in the Spanish capital, Madrid, earlier this month. The meeting brought together some 200 representatives of the three monotheistic faiths - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Representatives of several Asian religions also came, including Sikhs, Hindus and Taoists, as well as a swami who said he did not belong to any organized faith and asserted that religion divides rather than unites people.

King Abdullah's initiative was not without its detractors, who accused the Saudis of monopolizing the debate. One American newspaper described the interfaith dialogue at the conference as a "Saudi monologue."

And more than one observer questioned why the conference was held in Spain and not Saudi Arabia.

Those who ask such questions clearly do not understand the intricate workings of a country like Saudi Arabia. While there is no doubt that an interfaith conference on that scale would have had far greater impact if it were held in Saudi Arabia, the reality is that to have done so would have been somewhat premature.

If nothing else, the mere fact that rabbis would be openly invited to the kingdom, a country where in principle Jews are not permitted to visit, would have constituted a turning point in relations between Judaism and Islam.

It must be remembered that King Abdullah's initiative to seek rapprochement among Muslims and Christians and Jews is not a sentiment necessarily shared by all of his countrymen.

As it stands, the Saudi monarch took a double gamble.

On a personal level, he met for the first time with representatives of the Jewish faith, including an Israeli, (although one who holds dual citizenship and was registered at the conference as an American).

King Abdullah is certain to come under heavy criticism from the hard-core Wahabi orthodoxy back home who are unlikely to welcome any rapprochement with those they consider to be "nonbelievers."

Indeed, the Saudi king is putting more than his reputation on the line. Given the kingdom's history, King Abdullah may be gambling with his life.

[Adux]

Good to see you contributing Sikh warrior. Good.

[sikh_warrior]

Saudi King threatened by al Qaeda (http://pecanpii.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/saudi-king-threatened-by-al-qaeda/)

Posted on July 29, 2008 by pecanpii

al Qaeda is against the idea of King Abdullah holding meetings for interfaith dialog and believes it amounts to heresy against Islam.


DUBAI (http://www.iht.com/articles/*******/2008/07/28/europe/OUKWD-UK-QAEDA-INTERFAITH-SAUDI.php): A key al Qaeda figure has said Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah should be killed for calling for an interfaith dialogue that amounted to joining a Western crusade against Islam.
“Hurrying to kill this wanton tyrant (King Abdullah) who has announced himself to be a leader of atheism would be among the most pious acts,” Abu Yahya al-Libi said in a video posted on Monday on Islamist websites often used by al Qaeda supporters.
The message followed a groundbreaking Saudi-sponsored interfaith conference in Spain this month in which King Abdullah called on followers of the world’s major faiths to turn away from extremism and seek reconciliation.http://www.iht.com/articles/*******/2008/07/28/europe/OUKWD-UK-QAEDA-INTERFAITH-SAUDI.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/*******/2008/07/28/europe/OUKWD-UK-QAEDA-INTERFAITH-SAUDI.php)

[sikh_warrior]

Good to see you contributing Sikh warrior. Good.

well i got inspired by you and calanen.

[gayarabianman]

thanx for the enlightment on this subject.

im against anyone asking for benefit on the basis of religion! wether sikhs or muslims or anyone else.

if sikhs are required to remove turbans for security reasons, im all for it. if a sikh is innocent and he is required to remove his turban for security reasons, he should go to a room ( to avoid embarsment in public view) with the security people and remove his turban and let it be searched.

using religion for owns benefit is wrong and whoever does is degrading their religion.

there you go!
This guy deserves a round of applause from everyone.
Spot on on everything you said there mate.
Why can't everyone in religion be as helpful as you.
Me being none religious, I've always found the sheik faith to be very good and mix with all other communities.
It's defiantly a problem at the Muslim end if you ask me.
Everything you ask them (or the law asks them) to do, it's constantly "an infringement" against there beliefs.
Basically we should ignore their beliefs and if the law says whatever needs to be do, to be done, do it.
Simple.

[sikh_warrior]

thanx for the comments. i really appriciate that very much.

its rightly said " give respect.....earn respect"

respect cant be asked for or imposed upon. its not the religion islam which is a problem, its the preachers of islam who are a problem!

i have had good muslims as my friends, well they all have been indian muslims, which are not true muslims according to pakistanis!

i have had the privilage of knowing indian muslims as indian army officiers who were first to die for india against the wars and battles with pakistan. some of those indian muslims were shouted upon as infidels by pakistani soldiers to give up and cross over! none did!

law of the land is supreme.

[wigon]

(sigh). Again spot on if you are refering to Saudi Arabia. However, Saudi Arabia does not = Islam. They are sadly, the guardians of the heart of Islam, but that does not make them the only true practictioners of all Islamic belief and interpretations. But if you guys want to insist on this, then continue and you only encourage non-Salafi Muslims to believe that they indeed are mistaken in their beliefs and should become Salafi if they are to be "true" Muslims. So keep doing Al-Qaeda's ministry for them. Refute every moderate Muslim you find and keep telling them that they are apostates and misguided. Preach it brothers.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) spend more money for the spread of islam worldwide, its more than some countries GDP!

countries like pakistan, banglades, a-stan look upon KSA as the centre of islam.

islamic countries follow KSA to follow islam.

how can you take out islam our of KSA??

[wigon]

If you have an open mind and want to hear the voice of one of the top Islamic scholars in the United States, please watch this documentary. However if you are convinced that its all taqqiyah and refuse to hear the voice of moderate Muslims speaking against terrorism, then don't waste your time watching it.
This video called "Who Speaks for Islam?" shows much more clearly what I've been saying far better then anything I could say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEUUtHAaTto&feature=related


Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

I agree, when they say Peace, it means peace to Muslims only, in the Sharia, all non Muslims who living with Muslims, must pay to stay in peace, and that pay is either money, land, or ppl(slaves), and if we let them go like this, we will go back to the dark ages in no time fellas, breeding like mice.
Well you'd be wrong, and you are ignoring jihad that has been going on with little respite since 700AD.
ISLAM AS A SYSTEM

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat.

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.
Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called "religious rights."
When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to "the reasonable" Muslim demands for their
"religious rights," they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply.

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car burnings, etc.). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel". -- Leon Uris, "The Haj"

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.
(Contribution from Calanen, a fellow MP member)

[Lazy Lob]

.............. but that does not make them the only true practictioners of all Islamic belief and interpretations.........

Please, a thousand condoms but where you base this knowledge?

A) One muslim sez that all the others are crap and his version is the very, very rright one.

B) Then the other comes along and says, "No, beleef me, I say the trooth. I keel the others"

C) What is a trooth?

D) Who's the bigger nutter?

E) I can't be buggered to learn Arabic.

[wigon]

KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) spend more money for the spread of islam worldwide, its more than some countries GDP!

countries like pakistan, banglades, a-stan look upon KSA as the centre of islam.

islamic countries follow KSA to follow islam.

how can you take out islam our of KSA??


You can not take Islam out of Saudi Arabia. They are Muslims. Likewise the entire Islamic world does not follow Salafism. Do they have a lot of influence? Certainly. But the largest Islamic nation in the world is not Salafi (Indonesia), a country in which I have first hand experience living in. Sufism is
Ask ANY Wahhabi this simple challenge. Ask them to find ANY Qu'ran or Hadith verse that justifies killing civilians. If they can't then ask them what justifies suicide bombings against Jewish civilians or against Shi'a in Iraq (or Sunni if you're talking to a Shi'a extremist). Ask them what justifies blowing up schools in Iraq and killing civilians?

Wigon

[wigon]

Please, a thousand condoms but where you base this knowledge?

A) One muslim sez that all the others are crap and his version is the very, very rright one.

B) Then the other comes along and says, "No, beleef me, I say the trooth. I keel the others"

C) What is a trooth?

D) Who's the bigger nutter?

E) I can't be buggered to learn Arabic.



BINGO!!! Thank you! You hit the nail RIGHT on the head. That is the problem we are now seeing in the Islamic world. Nobody has one voice of authority. On top of that Islam is an incredibly complex and quite frankly, contradictory religion when you look at the 40,000 plus hadiths. Even abrogation theory does not get rid of all these contradictions. What we need to be doing is supporting voices of moderation and tolerance within the Islamic world who have a solid track record of moderation (and not some Shaykh who has a history of speaking out of both sides of his mouth). Only by supporting such voices will be cause people like Osama Bin Laden to lose their legitimicy in the eyes of the Islamic world.
It must be stated publicly as loudly as possible by our future President that we are not at war with Islam. Every chance should be made to capitalize on propaganda showing the massive amounts of foreign aid that go to Islamic countries and that past aid that we have given to Muslim nations such as during the horrible earthquake in Pakistan and the Tsunami in Aceh, Indonesia. In addition to that we must constantly remind the Muslim world that we were the first to defend the Bosnians against Serb attrocities (and yeah I know the pro-Serbian people here are gonna jump in and scream at me). Regardless of how you feel about that, American was the first to help them and we stuck by the Muslim people of not only Bosnia but also Kosovo.
The same can be said for the people of Kuwait who owe us one hell of a debt for saving their nation from becoming part of a greater Iraq. But do you see such commercials? Do you see such propaganda splashed all over You Tube and on Arabic satellite TV? No. Why is that? Can someone tell me please?

Wigon

[Adux]

Wigon,

I hope you know what Salafi's are doing to Sufi mosques.

[wigon]

By the way, Mr. Sikh, good job cutting and pasting Calanen's posts, but repeating distortions of truth over and over still doesn't make them right.
You list Indonesia as a nation who committed genocide because they are Muslim. Well I talked to people who lived through that reign of terror during the 1960's and I talked to ethnic chinese who have been the victims of Javanese racism against them (which continues today). They indeed did a commit a horrific genocide following the aborted communist coup there in 1965. Following that for many years hundreds of thousands of people were jailed and disappeared. However never ONCE in any of my conversations with Indonesians and Indonesian ethnic-chinese, nor in any of my research on that genocide did I hear anyone say that it was done in the name of Islam. This genocide was largely done with American applause (and some say direct support) in the name of killing communists during the height of the Cold War. That's why you don't read about this genocide in Word History books at American schools.
Anyone who has lived on Java knows that many Javanese harbor extreme dislike for Chinese regardless of what religion they are.
It's these gigantic generalizations that you people make without knowing the context in which they happened that frustrates me. It's willful ignorance done in the name of fear and suspicion.
You guys always say, "It's so CRYSTAL CLEAR!" Well of coarse it is when you think in black and white terms. That is why I play "devil's advocate" on threads sometimes. When I role play as a conservative, indeed everything is INCREDIBLY CLEAR and straightforward. It is liberating in fact to be able to order and organize the world so easily. However my life experience and training to understand reality through the eyes of others shows me a very different complex world full of grey areas and contradictions. That is the difference between myself and those of you who see the world so clearly. Believe me... I totally believe you when you say that you see Islam with total clarity.

Wigon

[khukuri]

"Angry muslims men"

What the hell is that?

Are the men in palestine throwing stones and blowing themselves, and the ones i kashmir and phillipes doing it for the same reason as young guys are burning up cars i paris or flying in buildings a la 9 11.

The generalisation of this article is ridiculous.

[wigon]

Wigon,

I hope you know what Salafi's are doing to Sufi mosques.

Yeah I know. Nobody supports the Sufis and more and more yourself, and all of those here who insist that Wahhabis are the true Muslims indreictly are supporting what is happening to Sufis and other moderate Muslim groups around the world.
Nobody is supporting the moderate Muslims. Its just a gun to the head and a call to "TAKE SIDES" on this war on terrorism by both sides of this war.


Wigon

[wigon]

By the way just for the record, I was never in support of the war in Iraq, however I do support how things are being handled there now (finally). Alot of the success there is based mainly on the stupidity and shear brutality of Al-Qaeda forcing wahhabism down people's throats. The rest is based upon the hard work of some magnificent US Army soldiers and Marines working in civil affairs, intel, and Psychological Operations units who risk their lives to "understand their enemy" and defeat them in intelligent ways using a solid understandng of the local cultures and beliefs.
God willing, I hope we can do the same in Afghanistan. The key that is missing however is mass counter-propaganda against Al-Qaeda and Wahhabism in general. Nobody is doing it. Here America is with the most powerful economy in the world and the most powerful marketing force the world has ever seen (not to mention we control most global communications).... and yet we have not used our marketing power against Al-Qaeda.
That to me is shere stupidity in the extreme when you can win a war without firing a shot.

Wigon

[Adux]

I dont know who the true muslims are, since I am not well-versed in Islamic nor am I a Muslim. I really dont care when I have nearly 16 bombs exploding in two days and 23 found unexploded. When it comes to the war on terror there are is a true side, that is our side. Our country's, our culture, and our Constitution makes it so.

[wigon]

I dont know who the true muslims are, since I am not well-versed in Islamic nor am I a Muslim. I really dont care when I have nearly 16 bombs exploding in two days and 23 found unexploded. When it comes to the war on terror there are is a true side, that is our side. Our country's, our culture, and our Constitution makes it so.


I have no doubt. But if you wish to stop these terrorists, you need to figure out smart ways of getting the locals from not supporting them and actively defending against these terrorists. Show them that it goes against everything in the Qur'an & Hadiths to kill innocent people and that they will burn in eternal hellfire for using Allah's name to commit such horrific acts.

Wigon

[Mastermind]

The problems within the world of Islam are far deeper and manifold than this article even begins to cover...but, it does have a good start on addressing a few of the larger problems.

First of all, if you take Islam on face value, that is, what their codec calls for all loyal Muslims to adopt as their belief system and life morality, you find it simply can not work. This is the same as the codec for Christainity and for Judiasm. However, both Judiasm and Christianity developed asides from within thier leadership that re-established reasonable clauses, rather a kind of religous "bill of rights" that moderated the conflicts between perfection and real life.

Unfortunately, Islam has failed to go through any sort of transformation. It is wide open to cultists and fanatics.

[Erik Sleivöks]

You are right. But before asking this of others, we should ourselves do this. For the most part I have only seen non-stop ranting against Islam on this forum... and the same people wonder why Muslims get so defensive and offended when they are characterized as all being terrorists and deceivers practicing taqqiyah.

If BOTH non-Muslims and Muslims did this, you are right, the world would be a much better place. But it's much easier to simply hate and fear what we don't know. Hatred of "the other" and natural competition is at the root of human warfare. We just don't want to admit that at the core of our humanity, we are animals bound by natural laws of survival. The special gift we have as humans is that we can rise above that and overcome this through love and patience for even those who are different then us. The question is... Should we?

Wigon

I don’t really think so… I am living in close contact with Islam every day, and I am obliged to follow “their” rules. Something that I accept, after all, I am the “guest” in an Islamic country. I am just slightly disappointed that the same rule does not apply to Muslims when they come to my country where they claim the same rights as in their home countries.

Islam is not a very tolerant religion and when questioned or other ways challenged, it always (yes always) quickly becomes very violent.

I think that it is completely normal that one should be able to “challenge” a religion that is intolerant and violent. After all, they are just following a belief and have no whatsoever right to impose this “belief” or rules upon other people.

[wigon]

The problems within the world of Islam are far deeper and manifold than this article even begins to cover...but, it does have a good start on addressing a few of the larger problems.

First of all, if you take Islam on face value, that is, what their codec calls for all loyal Muslims to adopt as their belief system and life morality, you find it simply can not work. This is the same as the codec for Christainity and for Judiasm. However, both Judiasm and Christianity developed asides from within thier leadership that re-established reasonable clauses, rather a kind of religous "bill of rights" that moderated the conflicts between perfection and real life.

Unfortunately, Islam has failed to go through any sort of transformation. It is wide open to cultists and fanatics.


Yeah I'd say that's a pretty fair analysis. The question is... what do we do to change that? Do we oppress all Muslims because of the minority fanatics (and thus increase fanaticism through oppression) or do we support the moderate and liberal Muslims de-legitimize the fanatics through a massive onslaught of counter-propaganda?
It can be done and is VASTLY cheaper then invading more countries and trying to start a total against Islam that may cost not only millions of lives but also the fundamental civil rights that we now enjoy in the Western World.

Wigon

[Arvin]

Erik most Iranians are Muslim only by name? Myself my parents are Muslim only by name they never go to mosque and even eat pork.But they celebrate Persian holidays then any muslim holiday like Ramadan.

[wigon]

I don’t really think so… I am living in close contact with Islam every day, and I am obliged to follow “their” rules. Something that I accept, after all, I am the “guest” in an Islamic country. I am just slightly disappointed that the same rule does not apply to Muslims when they come to my country where they claim the same rights as in their home countries.

Islam is not a very tolerant religion and when questioned or other ways challenged, it always (yes always) quickly becomes very violent.

I think that it is completely normal that one should be able to “challenge” a religion that is intolerant and violent. After all, they are just following a belief and have no whatsoever right to impose this “belief” or rules upon other people.

Erik, what country are you refering to that you live in? I may have lived there or travelled to that country. Things differ quite a bit depending on what Islamic country you live in. But I don't disagree that you have a bit (or sometimes ALOT) less religous tolerance in most Islamic countries compared to Western countries. I don't agree with that practice in those countries and I hope that will change. But again, the level of intolerance varies dramatically from country to country. Saudi Arabia for example is very harsh... Indonesia... fairly mild with overall fairly good tolerance for other religions... but still not like a Western country.
Even here in America...if you disobey the law, things can get violent awfully quick if you give attitude to a police officer. I've seen that more then enough times in my low-income neighborhood. If I walked around in a Saudi traditional outfit (which I actually own), I'd get my ass kicked very quickly. Why? Because those are very very direct symbols of Islam and of what people perceive as terrorist clothing.

Wigon

[Erik Sleivöks]

Erik most Iranians are Muslim only by name? Myself my parents are Muslim only by name they never go to mosque and even eat pork.But they celebrate Persian holidays then any muslim holiday like Ramadan.

100% Arvin,

I am talking about the “real believers” that I happen to know.
As I have said before, Iran is the less Islamic country I have ever been to.

However there is little in between, either they are completely fanatic (or pretending so), or they don’t care at all.

[Mastermind]

Yeah I'd say that's a pretty fair analysis. The question is... what do we do to change that? Do we oppress all Muslims because of the minority fanatics (and thus increase fanaticism through oppression) or do we support the moderate and liberal Muslims de-legitimize the fanatics through a massive onslaught of counter-propaganda?
It can be done and is VASTLY cheaper then invading more countries and trying to start a total against Islam that may cost not only millions of lives but also the fundamental civil rights that we now enjoy in the Western World.

Wigon
There simply is nothing to be done...nothing can be done from the non-Muslim world. Would Christians change because of heathen demands? Certainly, we can not expect Muslims and Islam to change because of infidel demands.

Islam must change from within and that simply is not going to happen mainly because there is no Islamic holy See. There is only the book...the written way of Islam and it is being interpreted at will.

The West has left Islam behind by centuries...and due to the modern world of instant and irresistable communications, a great many people within Islam are being exposed to the truth about that. It is a disaster for the religion and the adherents are fighting back. As the fanatics resist the sudden changes that are not being adapted to by the relgion, they try overwhelming fear tactics to force the masses to remain loyal...thus we see the beheadings, the stonings and the amputations and the slaughter.

This modern cruelty we are seeing...this angry, fierce face of Islam, we are reminded of the exact same fierceness of both Christianity and Judaism as they clawed their own ways through their transformations into moderation.

Christains, burning heretics alive for hundreds of years, hanging witches and horribly torturing suspected heretics to confessions...and Jews have only relatively recently abandoned their own horrid customs.

The only problem questions are, will the rest of the world tolerate base Islam for much longer or will base Islam tolerate the rest of the world for much longer? As weapons of mass destruction become more and more prevalent, will we have another firey holy war that will result, this time, in the total demise of one cult or the other?

Regardless of what the future holds, we civilized human beings fully grasp the danger to our ways of life...and that heightened sense of fear will create a constant mesh of confusion and threat that could tip the world to a really horriffic time to come. And it seems, right now, to be inevitable and soon.

[Ulytau]

at World War 1 times two Arabian young going near by Turkish officers and saying this words;

You Turks can find leader for saving your country but here,here first they start to fight aganist themselves for beeing leader..

Still we need to see that and especially need to understand women importance for future of a country.Biggest problem is the formalism..

Today i seen from off topic it was about a so called Sheikh and his Lamborgini issue..Extravagance really big sin can i ask to em what was that then?

For solving all problems Women need to be effective at Arabian Peninsula but same time when goverments show serious&hard reaction to radicals who keep saying democracy need to shut up and same time intellectual people need to speak about problem of the people..

Honestly interest to write serious letter to Organisation of the Islamic Conference i hope many people can remember their responsibility as soon as possible..
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Conference)

[Erik Sleivöks]

Erik, what country are you refering to that you live in? I may have lived there or travelled to that country. Things differ quite a bit depending on what Islamic country you live in. But I don't disagree that you have a bit (or sometimes ALOT) less religous tolerance in most Islamic countries compared to Western countries. I don't agree with that practice in those countries and I hope that will change. But again, the level of intolerance varies dramatically from country to country. Saudi Arabia for example is very harsh... Indonesia... fairly mild with overall fairly good tolerance for other religions... but still not like a Western country.
Even here in America...if you disobey the law, things can get violent awfully quick if you give attitude to a police officer. I've seen that more then enough times in my low-income neighborhood. If I walked around in a Saudi traditional outfit (which I actually own), I'd get my ass kicked very quickly. Why? Because those are very very direct symbols of Islam and of what people perceive as terrorist clothing.

Wigon

I live in Iran.

Iran is not a very tolerant country (the official side) when it comes to Islamic rules.
It is not as bad as Saudi Arabia (I have lived there too), but still quite rigid.

I don’t think that you can compare common law (attitude with US police) and the application of Islamic rules. As said earlier, they just represent a belief (a completely personal one) and should not be “imposed” as the common laws.

Regarding the rest, well… I completely agrees with Mastermind and I would just be copying him if I where to express myself further in this matter.

[MG 3]

MG3 maybe compare the two quotes. What does it mean to say "WE".........

As a Non-Muslim I find this a interesting paradox. Reportedly there is something around 1 billion Muslims. The only commonality is that they call themselves Muslims. Now what about Apostates. According to Islam, apostates are not Muslims. When we have sects of Islam declaring other sects of Islam as non-Muslim, that 1 billion in numbers decreases.

When Muslims declare like you have, All Muslims as in "WE Muslims" are the same, it is normal for non-Muslims to group all Muslims into the same group, that means all those who comment terror, murder, etc are now the same as the innocent, law abiding, moderate Muslims. In a way you are playing right into AQ hands and those who are "Islamaphobic".

I don't believe Islam is monolithic (meaning all Muslims are the same).

Yes there are a sect or two that we consider non-muslim but as for the majority when faced the WE stands true. Remember these minorities number well below the 1 or 2mill.

Well than too bad. I can not hide my identity only because AQ uses the same ID to further enhance their filthy objectives. What the west needs to understand is that there is no moderate or radical Islam. Islam is Islam. What AQ propagates is not Islamic from any angle and that is they reason why you do not have a billion terrorists today. Muslims follow the Quran to the line. What Im getting at is if the Quran really meant what AQ says it does could I/WE have gone against the teachings of god, NO but truthfully the Quran has a much more subtle meaning which at times is closer to Buddhism than others. I have read the quran in Arabic, Urdu and English and no where did I find a green light on killing Non-Muslims preemptively.
I am from that school of thought that believes that we need to take Islam back from the long beards. It is a rising movement and we have lost many scholars over the past 2 yrs but its never reported in the media.

[seraosha]

There's no point in trying to overanalyse this too much.

Basically their problem is that in islamic societies it's just not too easy for them to get a sh@g (especially the younger poorer guys).

Yup, thats really a significant part of the problem, poor bastards.

[Mastermind]

Yes there are a sect or two that we consider non-muslim but as for the majority when faced the WE stands true. Remember these minorities number well below the 1 or 2mill.

Well than too bad. I can not hide my identity only because AQ uses the same ID to further enhance their filthy objectives. What the west needs to understand is that there is no moderate or radical Islam. Islam is Islam. What AQ propagates is not Islamic from any angle and that is they reason why you do not have a billion terrorists today. Muslims follow the Quran to the line. What Im getting at is if the Quran really meant what AQ says it does could I/WE have gone against the teachings of god, NO but truthfully the Quran has a much more subtle meaning which at times is closer to Buddhism than others. I have read the quran in Arabic, Urdu and English and no where did I find a green light on killing Non-Muslims preemptively.
I am from that school of thought that believes that we need to take Islam back from the long beards. It is a rising movement and we have lost many scholars over the past 2 yrs but its never reported in the media.
I find this post to be highly encouraging. We hardly ever hear of efforts toward constructive reform from within Islam.

[Hollis]

I find this post to be highly encouraging. We hardly ever hear of efforts toward constructive reform from within Islam.


I don't remember his name, a DR. who was a progressive Muslim in the 70's, who challenged, as MG3 says, "long beards" faux teachings. His writings were pretty famous, in that he was known in the West. Not sure what happened to him.

[ggk]

MG3,

There are some serious questions raised there, Living in 200 million muslim society i know the article holds water quite well. I was expecting some serious response from you, other than brushing aside the article, or is muslims devoid of problems at all uber-alles

mm i thought previously you said 180 million muslims?

[Adux]

mm i thought previously you said 180 million muslims?

I stand corrected, 180 million and fast procreating!!!!

[Adux]

Yes there are a sect or two that we consider non-muslim but as for the majority when faced the WE stands true. Remember these minorities number well below the 1 or 2mill.

Well than too bad. I can not hide my identity only because AQ uses the same ID to further enhance their filthy objectives. What the west needs to understand is that there is no moderate or radical Islam. Islam is Islam. What AQ propagates is not Islamic from any angle and that is they reason why you do not have a billion terrorists today. Muslims follow the Quran to the line. What Im getting at is if the Quran really meant what AQ says it does could I/WE have gone against the teachings of god, NO but truthfully the Quran has a much more subtle meaning which at times is closer to Buddhism than others. I have read the quran in Arabic, Urdu and English and no where did I find a green light on killing Non-Muslims preemptively.
I am from that school of thought that believes that we need to take Islam back from the long beards. It is a rising movement and we have lost many scholars over the past 2 yrs but its never reported in the media.

Good luck with your effort, but as far as I am concerned devil is in the details!!!
Pakistan was formed with all that talk, and we all know what happened to the minorities there.

[wigon]

There simply is nothing to be done...nothing can be done from the non-Muslim world. Would Christians change because of heathen demands? Certainly, we can not expect Muslims and Islam to change because of infidel demands.

Islam must change from within and that simply is not going to happen mainly because there is no Islamic holy See. There is only the book...the written way of Islam and it is being interpreted at will.

The West has left Islam behind by centuries...and due to the modern world of instant and irresistable communications, a great many people within Islam are being exposed to the truth about that. It is a disaster for the religion and the adherents are fighting back. As the fanatics resist the sudden changes that are not being adapted to by the relgion, they try overwhelming fear tactics to force the masses to remain loyal...thus we see the beheadings, the stonings and the amputations and the slaughter.

This modern cruelty we are seeing...this angry, fierce face of Islam, we are reminded of the exact same fierceness of both Christianity and Judaism as they clawed their own ways through their transformations into moderation.

Christains, burning heretics alive for hundreds of years, hanging witches and horribly torturing suspected heretics to confessions...and Jews have only relatively recently abandoned their own horrid customs.

The only problem questions are, will the rest of the world tolerate base Islam for much longer or will base Islam tolerate the rest of the world for much longer? As weapons of mass destruction become more and more prevalent, will we have another firey holy war that will result, this time, in the total demise of one cult or the other?

Regardless of what the future holds, we civilized human beings fully grasp the danger to our ways of life...and that heightened sense of fear will create a constant mesh of confusion and threat that could tip the world to a really horriffic time to come. And it seems, right now, to be inevitable and soon.



I respectfully strongly disagree. Muslims do not act in a vaccuum. Neither does America. American actions (or lack of action) has vast effects on the perception of Muslims towards the Western world. America simply does not take advantage of the opportunities of strong counter-propaganda. No I am not saying, "It's all America's fault and Muslims are just reacting". What I am saying is that you have elements in the West and the Islamic world that are, for lack of better words, drama queens who like to stir the beehive. Osama bin Laden is one of them. Bush is another although probably more by accident and shere stupidity. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell his name) of Iran is another great example. They all do this for political reasons mixed with personal beliefs. And like stupid sheep, many people follow these cults of personality.
America and the West in general can POWERFULLY change the dynamics of this by stealing the thunder from Islamic extremists through the use of counter-propaganda chellenging them to validate the killing of innocent people within the teachings of the Qur'an. They can fund strong moderate Islamic leaders and institutions (with known track records) to distribute publications using authentic Islamic teachings that de-legitimize fanatical violent Islamic radical beliefs.

But instead what do we see? We se the majority on Western political forums (and Washington D.C. Think Tanks) INSISTING that these terrorists are THE TRUE MUSLIMS and that all moderate Muslims are essentially in denial of their true faith. THere is absolutely NO trust or friendship given to moderate Muslims who are trying to take back their religion and no appreciation for the work that they are doing aside from a few obscure covert programs here and there.

To me this is insanity and the epitomy of human arrogance that we could be so stupid and so single minded in our suspicion and willfull ignorance towards another religion. They are there, shouting, screaming, and sometimes dying in their efforts to take back Islam, and nobody in the West really cares.

That must change otherwise, we must face the logical alternative which is genocide of all Muslims. Even Mg3 here, would be a target for murder in the name of freedom and civilization. While I am not Muslim, what if I converted to Islam? Who here wishes to kill me? Would you do it with a bomb? A nuke? That would be hard if I lived in your country. Maybe you would prefer to do it up front and personal with a bullet or a knife to my heart and see my life slip away as the light fades from my eyes? Here I am... a human being on this forum...flesh and blood. Who here behind the assumed anonymity of his keyboard says that he will be the one to kill me and other Muslims if I were Muslim and we refused to renounce faith in Allah and the religion of Islam? I think most of you assume that such decisions and dirty deeds will be left to men and women in uniform. Some of you here perhaps have been those men and women who had to make that awful decision to take a life. As you know its not pretty...its horrific, brutal, savage, and can mess you up psychologically the rest of your life. But.... its easy... its instinctual... its "us or them" fight time and you know what the decision would be if ordered to do it.

The rest of you think about what you would do if you were that man or woman in uniform and ordered to wipe out as many Muslims as possible if all diplomacy ended and more and more Muslims began launching attacks against the West from within and without. How could you tell good Muslims from Bad Muslims? How could you tell if they were practicing Taqqiyah (deception)? Taqqiyah is fully allowed in all interpretations Islam if they are in fear for their lives or the lives of their family. So if you can't trust them and know that they will carry out revenge eventually, what are you to do but kill them all?

All of that can be avoided but politicans are too damn chicken **** of losing precious votes to do what needs to be done to end the war on terror peacefully. Oh no...they don't want to be seen "talking to terrorists" God forbid that! They don't want to try understanding them and what motivates them. They don't want to understand the diversity of Islam. They (and many of you here) don't want to see the powerful forces and theology within the Islamic traditions that can be rallied against these extremists with our help, support, and respect.

Islam needs a hero... who it will be? Osama bin Laden and his extremist supporters or the champions for peace and tolerance amongst the Ummah? That ultimate question will be up to Muslims indeed. But we can support the champions of peace by understanding them, and echoing their views rather then echoing and regurgitating the arguements of the extremists every time a voice for peace in Islam tries to be heard above the calls for war, fear, and hatred.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

I respectfully strongly disagree. Muslims do not act in a vaccuum. Neither does America. American actions (or lack of action) has vast effects on the perception of Muslims towards the Western world. America simply does not take advantage of the opportunities of strong counter-propaganda. No I am not saying, "It's all America's fault and Muslims are just reacting". What I am saying is that you have elements in the West and the Islamic world that are, for lack of better words, drama queens who like to stir the beehive. Osama bin Laden is one of them. Bush is another although probably more by accident and shere stupidity. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell his name) of Iran is another great example. They all do this for political reasons mixed with personal beliefs. And like stupid sheep, many people follow these cults of personality.
America and the West in general can POWERFULLY change the dynamics of this by stealing the thunder from Islamic extremists through the use of counter-propaganda chellenging them to validate the killing of innocent people within the teachings of the Qur'an. They can fund strong moderate Islamic leaders and institutions (with known track records) to distribute publications using authentic Islamic teachings that de-legitimize fanatical violent Islamic radical beliefs.

But instead what do we see? We se the majority on Western political forums (and Washington D.C. Think Tanks) INSISTING that these terrorists are THE TRUE MUSLIMS and that all moderate Muslims are essentially in denial of their true faith. THere is absolutely NO trust or friendship given to moderate Muslims who are trying to take back their religion and no appreciation for the work that they are doing aside from a few obscure covert programs here and there.

To me this is insanity and the epitomy of human arrogance that we could be so stupid and so single minded in our suspicion and willfull ignorance towards another religion. They are there, shouting, screaming, and sometimes dying in their efforts to take back Islam, and nobody in the West really cares.

That must change otherwise, we must face the logical alternative which is genocide of all Muslims. Even Mg3 here, would be a target for murder in the name of freedom and civilization. While I am not Muslim, what if I converted to Islam? Who here wishes to kill me? Would you do it with a bomb? A nuke? That would be hard if I lived in your country. Maybe you would prefer to do it up front and personal with a bullet or a knife to my heart and see my life slip away as the light fades from my eyes? Here I am... a human being on this forum...flesh and blood. Who here behind the assumed anonymity of his keyboard says that he will be the one to kill me and other Muslims if I were Muslim and we refused to renounce faith in Allah and the religion of Islam? I think most of you assume that such decisions and dirty deeds will be left to men and women in uniform. Some of you here perhaps have been those men and women who had to make that awful decision to take a life. As you know its not pretty...its horrific, brutal, savage, and can mess you up psychologically the rest of your life. But.... its easy... its instinctual... its "us or them" fight time and you know what the decision would be if ordered to do it.

The rest of you think about what you would do if you were that man or woman in uniform and ordered to wipe out as many Muslims as possible if all diplomacy ended and more and more Muslims began launching attacks against the West from within and without. How could you tell good Muslims from Bad Muslims? How could you tell if they were practicing Taqqiyah (deception)? Taqqiyah is fully allowed in all interpretations Islam if they are in fear for their lives or the lives of their family. So if you can't trust them and know that they will carry out revenge eventually, what are you to do but kill them all?

All of that can be avoided but politicans are too damn chicken **** of losing precious votes to do what needs to be done to end the war on terror peacefully. Oh no...they don't want to be seen "talking to terrorists" God forbid that! They don't want to try understanding them and what motivates them. They don't want to understand the diversity of Islam. They (and many of you here) don't want to see the powerful forces and theology within the Islamic traditions that can be rallied against these extremists with our help, support, and respect.

Islam needs a hero... who it will be? Osama bin Laden and his extremist supporters or the champions for peace and tolerance amongst the Ummah? That ultimate question will be up to Muslims indeed. But we can support the champions of peace by understanding them, and echoing their views rather then echoing and regurgitating the arguements of the extremists every time a voice for peace in Islam tries to be heard above the calls for war, fear, and hatred.

Wigon

dude are you a convert to islam?

[wigon]

dude are you a convert to islam?


If you read what I posted you would have seen that I said: "While I am not Muslim, what if I converted to Islam?" That should answer your question. I am Theist meaning that I believe in a higher power but do not believe in any organized religion. If anything, I am a "Poohist" in that I follow the teachings of Winnie the Pooh. You see, the teachings of Winnie the Pooh are all you need to live as a good human being. It is innocence that we forget so often in what can be a very cruel world.

Wigon

[Adux]

Wigon,

I agree with you one thing, we have to differntiate between the terrorist(quite low % of population), terrorist sympthaizers disguised as moderates(overwhelming majority) and the true moderates(minute even lesser than the terrorist). 1 billion people are not going to vanish. Whatever said and done it shouldnt be appeasement, and we shouldnt compermise on democracy, secularism and human rights.

But the question, are they willing to listen?

[sikh_warrior]

thanx for the write up about yourself, wigon. i got it now!

a western lady travelling to an islamic country was told to cover up since its an islamic country and follow the local society. a similar case of a muslim lady doesnt follow the western standards of life on a trip to a western country and still covers herself and says its as per her religion!

isnt it FUNNY?

it was very rightfull of the french judge to dismiss the application for french citizenship to a morocan women!

Anyway what doesnt anger muslim men?

[Erik Sleivöks]

Anyway what doesnt anger muslim men?

Tall, blonde Scandinavian girls... especially if no other Muslim is present.

What a hypocrite bunch of …………..:cantbeli:

Great avtarwoot

[sikh_warrior]

thanx for the comment on the avtar!

i was looking for something with "infidel" written on it and i got it!

arabic writing was a bonus along with the ****ytrap blonde!

[wigon]

thanx for the write up about yourself, wigon. i got it now!

a western lady travelling to an islamic country was told to cover up since its an islamic country and follow the local society. a similar case of a muslim lady doesnt follow the western standards of life on a trip to a western country and still covers herself and says its as per her religion!

isnt it FUNNY?

it was very rightfull of the french judge to dismiss the application for french citizenship to a morocan women!

Anyway what doesnt anger muslim men?

Not really. It's a matter of respect towards another's culture.
If I was a woman, I wouldn't go to those countries unless I was prepared to deal with such inconveniences.
As far as France is concerned, they have that right to do what they do. I see it as a social experiment. It is their culture, their country, and thus their right. The hijab makes sense in a Muslim country but does not make any sense theologically in a Western country anyways. Better if they simply dress modelestly. It pisses me off when I see Muslim women wearing hijabs but also wearing tight jeans and low cut blouses. That defeats the whole point of the hijab which is modesty. In Muslim countries however, for some reason, women's hair is seen as something erotic. I have no clue why, but traditionally that seems to be the case. Covering the hair was actually a tradition of modesty for women in Christianity and Judaism as well long before Islam.


When you talk to Muslims like the way you are talking (in an extremely condescending manner) of course they're going to get mad unless they are exceptionally patient. Some Muslims talk the same to non-Muslims in order to provoke the exact same type of anger. That way both you and them can sit smuggly with each of you believing that each other is superior to the other. Again self-fullfilling prophecy. It's like when you get me riled up and I start going into the sarcasm stuff (which I try to tone down but can't help sometimes). You probably think I'm a bastard. Just like most human beings I fall for it because I have human emotions.

I do not defend abuses of human rights in Muslim lands or the lack of rights for women in some Islamic countries.
All I am saying is that there are better ways of getting them to change and that does not include appeasement. It includes patience, the nurturing of mutual understanding and emphasis on common goals and causes, along slow and steady steps towards change that must come as much as possible from within traditions found in their religion and cultures.

Wigon

[Hollis]

I do not defend abuses of human rights in Muslim lands or the lack of rights for women in some Islamic countries.
All I am saying is that there are better ways of getting them to change and that does not include appeasement. It includes patience, the nurturing of mutual understanding and emphasis on common goals and causes, along slow and steady steps towards change that must come as much as possible from within traditions found in their religion and cultures.

Wigon


Well said, if a person is forced to change, the force must always be there or they will change back.

[wigon]

Well said, if a person is forced to change, the force must always be there or they will change back.


Actually, no, it's quite the opposite. If people do not change on their own free will, the change is generally temporary. The West changed because free people WANTED change. Those that didn't were killed or simply lost power and faded away. This is the reason for the bloody centuries following the Catholic reformation (not to mention the genocide of pagans all over Europe that mainstream history books fail to talk about). Pagan worshipers of various pre-Christian religions in Europe, were killed by the millions. This reached a peak during the Catholic inquisition period that was not just in Spain, but all over Europe. Why were they killed? Because they did not want to change rightly or wrongly.
Could it be that Europeans have a higher degree of secularism because of having Christianity shoved down their throats for centuries?

I would recommend that you look up the literature on cognitive psychological experiments regarding positive vs. negative feedback. This isn't quack science. These are rigidly scientific experiments held under tightly controlled environments.
Over and over and over, it is found that negative feedback tends to be very good at achieving short term behavioral changes, but fails miserably when it comes to long term change in behavior. Positive feedback (rewarding someone when they do something "good") however tends to have much greater results in achieving long term behavioral change. The trade-off is that in the short-term it does not always show immediate results. Most of these studies were done with children and short term tends to equal a week or two weeks while long term usually is operationalized as meaning two months to a year.

That, is one reason why Japan is one of our greatest allies. Not because we blew the living crap out of them with nukes. But because we followed up with the Marshall plan. In contrast Hitler took advantage of the tremendous anger of the German people towards the rest of Europe. Why? Because the rest of Europe had raped Germany after WWI and they lived in a humiliated society with a ruined economy. Muslims in the Middle East generally live in nations that have been utterly humiliated and put down constantly by Western colonial powers. The latest example is Iraq. Do you not think that this has a sociological impact upon the human psyche? This is why some Middle Eastern Muslims cheer when they see an American military vehicle blowing up on TV. They are looking for a hero to lift them up out of that humiliation. We can be that hero and we're trying, but its a totally different cultural/historical context compared to Japan. That is why we have to look at the context and strive to understand Islam and how it is practiced in the regions in which we are involved in warfare. Along with that we have to understand the broader traditions of Islam as well as the local cultures in order to tear apart culture from Islam. With that understanding you can begin to craft new programs to change the society towards a more moderate and respected Islamic society that believes in itself and that has hope for their future rather then just blind faith in radical wahhabi style Islam.

If there is someone who is a real bastard/bitch in your life, try this experiment. Tell them something really nice when they insult you or talk down to you. Spend an entire day doing nothing but speaking kindly and respectfully to them in a genuine fashion. Generally most of the time, such actions will have a remarkable effect on that person's behavior.
The hard part however is maintaining that behavior over the long term.
That requires serious patience that is extremely hard to develop, but not impossible.

Wigon

[Hollis]

Wigon, though my statement was very simply said, it sounded as I said the same as you.


Maybe read about narcissistic sociopathic behavior. While most people might respond to a gentle touch, some will not.

[wigon]

Wigon, though my statement was very simply said, it sounded as I said the same as you.


Maybe read about narcissistic sociopathic behavior. While most people might respond to a gentle touch, some will not.


Yes I have read about such people and I have met such people. They are the exception, not the rule. If the positive feedback is done right in the Middle East, the majority will take care of the minority sociopaths themselves. We have seen this work in Anbar province and it can work elsewhere in the Middle East. Sadly our idiot politicians have not caught on so quickly as our military.

Wigon

[Adux]

Wigon,

The fact is, the religion has been hijacked by the hardliners; somehow the all others see the hardliners version as the true one(maybe it is) all the while hardliners who frequent the mosques have attained the power to throw people out or call them 'not a real muslim' if they dont follow thier version. As far as my experience goes, most are silent supporters of the hardliners and agree to their talks of Yehudi, Christain and Hindu crap, and the real moderates are, let me tell you they are outcasts. I know a group educational institutions here, run by truely patriotic secular muslims, who are finding it hard to find funding, as nobody from India-Saudi arabia would give'em that. It is not as simple as you say it. The majority dont believe in our values, and that is fact.

[sikh_warrior]

if its a matter of respecting eachother's culture while visiting or living in other countries, then why do muslim women take off their hijab and burkha when they visit western countries?

why do muslims living in west demand islamic sharia law, instead of following the law of the land?

why do muslims deman halal meat while living in west?

why do they go to the west in the first place leaving their islamic pure countries which has freedom of halal meat, sharia law, separate swimming pools, cinemas, schools, mosques, beach etc for women and girls?

why is it that, the other religions who have to understand islam and why not islam who is still living in sands of saudi arabia not get to know other religions?

90% of canadian citizens who were evacuated during israeli-hezb war in 2006 from lebanon were of lebenese origin who after getting canadian citizenship were back in lebenon and getting benefits from canadian govt while not paying a single cent in tax!

pakistanis living in west still send their kids to get "knowledge" about their cuture and religion from so called religious schools in pakistan and come back to blow up things in west!

when will these so called western open free societies will WAKE UP to the islamisation of their countries?

west is going to pay very heavily about the mistakes they are making by allowing muslims to live in "free" world!

[Ulytau]

sikh_warrior maybe you interest with this news too ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3403775.stm

[ggk]

west is going to pay very heavily about the mistakes they are making by allowing muslims to live in "free" world!


sigh ...another muslim hater...

[ggk]

sikh_warrior maybe you interest with this news too ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3403775.stm

thanks for article.




"Ultimately, if I have to choose between further studies or my turban, I will keep the turban." Fourteen-year-old Vikramjit Singh, who lives in suburban Paris, says giving up his studies would perhaps ruin his material life.

[Ulytau]

ggk..

My point is the first there is many mistakes from two sides families etc...Also if someone living in another country ''also you know about Prophet he was warning Muslim for example about fasting when you going to someones house who is Christian or Jew (You need to respect to owner of the house or you need to tell her/him before visiting) ''

I will give many examples about mistakes but this mistakes were directly aiming Muslim countries before i was kid but i rememberin clearly how some idiots were making propaganda aganist Turkish Secular System..

But honestly nobody can critize someone about what they wanna eat cause people have different enjoyment especially about food..

Today who going to another countries still wanna see meal from their national kitchen and we can insult em cause they wanna see that?

One smiley can explain everything i think ''rofl''

[Adux]

I am with France on this one, They have their ideals and concepts. If not get out of that country. I dont go to "Gulf" to work, one: I dont need to, second: I dont like being a second class citizen.

[sikh_warrior]

sikh_warrior maybe you interest with this news too ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3403775.stm


Law of the land prevails!

and one more thing.....sikhs in france are not burning cars on the streets or blowing up people with bombs! they are rioting or killing people in the name of Sikhism!

if you want to live in a foreign land, go by the rules and law of the land.

anything else Ulytau??

[sikh_warrior]

sigh ...another muslim hater...

think of me as an Infidel, not muslim hater. its islam that hates me and i m giving it back!p-)

The difficulty is -what is 'radical' islam? Is radical islam just using IEDs and RPGs to destroy the West, while just subverting its beliefs and practices through infiltration is less radical?

There seem to be enough muslims believing in the jihad, either the armed one, or the stealth jihad to slowly takeover through population growth. The islamic religion has views and beliefs that are entirely opposite to western values and this is demonstrated by every islamic sovereign state on the planet.
Anger poverty and ignorance - when the biggest pusher of Wahhabi Islam, is the one of the richest states on the planet - Saudi Arabia, that has spent $100 Billion on building mosques, charities and front groups throughout the Western world to push its view of Islam. Poverty - when Osam Bin Laden is worth billions. Ignorance - when the 9/11 bombers were nearly all Western educated graduate students? Ignorance when Osama Bin Laden's right hand man is a specialist Egyptian doctor?

Islam has no tolerance for anyone else, or anything else. Shari'a must be the law of the land, and must overrule infidel law. And if the infidels will not accept shari'a law, then it must be taken by force. That is islam. Whether people choose to follow that belief or not, is up to them. But that is what it says. And enough muslims follow this interpretation of Islam, so that it is a real problem for us infidels.

Now for me as a kuffir, I don't want muslim no go enclaves. I dont want mosques on every corner. I dont want a group of people brought into this country that want to take it over, get rid of democracy and install a medieval legal code. And I will fight to ensure that this does not happen..and also, to let the majority of people know what is going on and who wants this.

Forget all you know about religion, Islam is different. And until people understand how different, they wont know what a significant threat it poses to the entire free world.

[ggk]

well .....i dont hate you.....to say islam are not tolerance are not true...its us human that are not tolerance, not religion....for example , you are not tolerance..... i will not blame your religion, but i blame you.

[Stan187]

well .....i dont hate you.....to say islam are not tolerance are not true...its us human that are not tolerance, not religion....for example , you are not tolerance..... i will not blame your religion, but i blame you.

But he is speaking for himself, he does not claim to speak for his religion. As opposed to the radicals that he talks about, who do in fact claim to speak in the name of the religion that they represent. It is a subtle but noticeable and important difference. Osama Bin Laden does not claim that he just speaks for himself.

[ggk]

even if their religion are spaghetti (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyCOvJVIa5MAZBVXNyoA/SIG=15s23a716/EXP=1217859086/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fei=UTF-8%26fr=yfp-t-501%26fp_ip=MY%26p=spaghetti%26SpellState=n-2439003226_q-U1K21gPQKZY9.z7wjpsGUAAAAA%2540%2540%26fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top) ,those radicals can say their spaghetti (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyCOvJVIa5MAZBVXNyoA/SIG=15s23a716/EXP=1217859086/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fei=UTF-8%26fr=yfp-t-501%26fp_ip=MY%26p=spaghetti%26SpellState=n-2439003226_q-U1K21gPQKZY9.z7wjpsGUAAAAA%2540%2540%26fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top) god instruct them to do this and that...in reality its us, human...huuuuuman being.

[Adux]

Good to see you Stan here....not having fun at WAB anymore...lol ;)

[wigon]

Wigon,

The fact is, the religion has been hijacked by the hardliners; somehow the all others see the hardliners version as the true one(maybe it is) all the while hardliners who frequent the mosques have attained the power to throw people out or call them 'not a real muslim' if they dont follow thier version. As far as my experience goes, most are silent supporters of the hardliners and agree to their talks of Yehudi, Christain and Hindu crap, and the real moderates are, let me tell you they are outcasts. I know a group educational institutions here, run by truely patriotic secular muslims, who are finding it hard to find funding, as nobody from India-Saudi arabia would give'em that. It is not as simple as you say it. The majority dont believe in our values, and that is fact.


Yeah that is because the majority in those mosques who were silent most likely believe that these guys get their authority from big name Shaykhs in Saudi Arabia, and so must be true Muslim scholars. In addition, to be quite honest, alot of Indian Sufi theology is very very mixed with Hinduism and Buddhism and so it is easily ripped to shreds by Salafi scholars. On top of that, you have in India tremendous influence from the powerful radical Pakistani scholar Abul Ala Mawduudi. So in India in particular you have a different sort of dynamics going on. Again, this is where non-Muslims need to step in and support moderates against the overwhelming financial/marketing power of the Saudi and Pakistani Salafis.
Moderate Indian Shaykhs with strong theological arguements need to be given a platform and marketed strongly as true patriotic Indian Muslims with the Salafi movement depicted as Pakistani corrupters seeking to destroy India's unity.

But I may be completely wrong as I don't have much expertise regarding the details and history of Hindu/Sikh/Muslim relations in India other then just basic general historical knowledge.

Wigon

[Ulytau]

Law of the land prevails!

and one more thing.....sikhs in france are not burning cars on the streets or blowing up people with bombs! they are rioting or killing people in the name of Sikhism!

if you want to live in a foreign land, go by the rules and law of the land.

anything else Ulytau??

Still Sikhs in UK they want to work with their own turban as a police too..Can i ask who killed Indira Gandhi?

Your comment wasnt about the riots or anarch ''Also after seriously checking police seen their own citizens join to this riots too for anarchy''

About what they wanna eat etc. anyone can blame to people cause what they wanna eat? If i know true Indian people seriously care about their own kitchen especially about the spices :)

Terrorism?

I am aganist EVERY terrorism mate..

But still remember who supported em seriously too..

[ggk]

a Hindu practicioner dont eat cow or meat...so if they dont want to eat meat in US, is it wrong? does the law of the land prevail?

[Hollis]

a Hindu practicioner dont eat cow or meat...so if they dont want to eat meat in US, is it wrong? does the law of the land prevail?


?? there are no dietary laws in the US per se. Personally I think the issue of religious dress, especially if it more conservative than norm, is not much of a issue. Obviously the term is reasonable accommodation is appropriate, the key word is "reasonable".

[ggk]

Law of the land prevails!

and one more thing.....sikhs in france are not burning cars on the streets or blowing up people with bombs! they are rioting or killing people in the name of Sikhism!

if you want to live in a foreign land, go by the rules and law of the land.

anything else Ulytau??

im sorry hollis, im replying sikh_warrior statement,,, i knew there were no dietery law in US.

[Adux]

Bull****, Hindu's dont eat cow. It is scared to some, not for most others. Its food. I used to love it when I was Hindu practioner, and I love it now when I am not.

[Adux]

a Hindu practicioner dont eat cow or meat...so if they dont want to eat meat in US, is it wrong? does the law of the land prevail?

And moreover it is a personal Choice akin what kind of underwear he likes to wear, which hand he likes to write with. And he is not hurting anyone.

He is when he doesnt let other people eat or kill cow. That is something Hindu's dont do, atleast in some foreign countries.Apples and Oranges.

[Adux]

Defernetiate between practices that effect society, human rights, laws of land, nation-state and which dont

[wigon]

if its a matter of respecting eachother's culture while visiting or living in other countries, then why do muslim women take off their hijab and burkha when they visit western countries?

why do muslims living in west demand islamic sharia law, instead of following the law of the land?

why do muslims deman halal meat while living in west?

why do they go to the west in the first place leaving their islamic pure countries which has freedom of halal meat, sharia law, separate swimming pools, cinemas, schools, mosques, beach etc for women and girls?

why is it that, the other religions who have to understand islam and why not islam who is still living in sands of saudi arabia not get to know other religions?

90% of canadian citizens who were evacuated during israeli-hezb war in 2006 from lebanon were of lebenese origin who after getting canadian citizenship were back in lebenon and getting benefits from canadian govt while not paying a single cent in tax!

pakistanis living in west still send their kids to get "knowledge" about their cuture and religion from so called religious schools in pakistan and come back to blow up things in west!

when will these so called western open free societies will WAKE UP to the islamisation of their countries?

west is going to pay very heavily about the mistakes they are making by allowing muslims to live in "free" world!

Why do some Muslim women in Islamic countries refuse to wear hijab?
In the West they wear hijab because they choose to and becase they can. It's not seen as disrespectful to wear the hijab as the West has a tradition of Catholic nuns wearing a form of hijab. In contrast however, Muslim men rarely wear their long tunics here in America. If they do, they almost always get severe harrassment if not outright violence. Maybe thats not true in more tolerant Western nations in Europe. But again, its not a big deal in my opinion.
Likewise Helal meat is not a big deal. I've never heard Muslims in America demanding Helal meat. Ironically Salafi teach often teach to just say "Bismillah" before eating non-helal meat and that its ok as long as its not pork and does not have alcohol in it. Alot of Muslims also believe its ok to eat kosher meat which is readily available in most Western supermarkets. In addition they can always become vegitarian.

What IS a big deal is them demanding Shariat law. But what you need to look at is who is doing the demanding. Because one mosque demands Shariat does not mean the entire Muslim community supports them or even most of that community. Now...if you saw ten thousand Muslims on the streets demanding Shariat law... then yeah...that would be worrisome. But again, these are things that can easily be handled by simply marketing a scenario on national television depicting life under the Shariat law and the destruction of all European culture and Western technology that they are currently enjoying. Ask them, "Why did your people come to our country in the first place if your home countries are Islamic? Do you wish to turn this country into the home country that your families fled from?" If you speak to a fanatic individually, ask them what a Shariat based government would look like. Ask them of ONE scholar who has outlined what a modern Shariat based government would look like. To my knowledge no Islamic scholar has done this and very few use Saudi Arabia as a good example of a shariat based government.
Ask them then how they would force other non-Muslim countries to trade with them after taking over even one Muslim country? How would they avoid bloody mass murder and invasion by non-Muslim countries if they attempted to force Shariat law upon non-Muslims?

So what I'm trying to say is that you have to role play with these fanatics in order to show them what the logical conclusion to shariat law would be. If extremist groups don't budge and begin to gain serious wide support despite the best efforts at counter-propaganda, thats when stronger measures have to be enforced to control the situation. If things got bad enough that may mean arresting and striping citizenship from radical leaders so that they can be deported. Like in many Muslim countries, it may be necessary only for state sponsored Imams to preach.
But before things get to that stage, again, serious counter-propaganda must be done. In most cases, I think that such efforts, if done properly, can diffuse such extremists.
As far as kids going off to Pakistan to study, I know that here in the U.S., the FBI is rapidly developing its ability to monitor any such people and the schools that they are being sent to. Some are much more radical then others. There are still reputable moderate deobandi schools that lay off the politics and teach straight Islam and emphasis on learning Arabic, memorizing the Qur'an, and learning basic Islamic law and scholarship within their particular madhhab.
At any rate, again its not an impossible problem to deal with. If it becomes a major problem, then sending children off to those schools can be made illegal if they are identified as terrorist propaganda centers.

Wigon

[Adux]

Wigon,

Why does Honor killings happen in Western muslim socieites. These woman are scared and worried about being shunned by their communities. Not all of them wear it because they believe in the religion. You are being naive here about Asian Family values and culture.

And, Sharia which is practiced in domestic issues in my country is far far from being something that is acceptable in an modern-humanisitic societies, I can easily give you links from my own home country which would make a normal human being hang his head in shame. And I am, because of this in my country. It is shameful and it is hateful. No to Sharia.

Rest assured, I agree to your view point that we shouldnt shun Islam or its people. When we do generalize in that way, there is whole lot of good people in there too. If 1 innocent person is hurt because of our actions on 99 bastards, we have failed. We cannot wish away a 1 billion people.

[ggk]

Bull****, Hindu's dont eat cow. It is scared to some, not for most others. Its food. I used to love it when I was Hindu practioner, and I love it now when I am not.

in my country a hindu praticioner dont eat cows....theres no need to be rude, if you were not a good hindu and eat meat. (or ex hindus)

...

[Adux]

in my country a hindu praticioner dont eat cows....theres no need to be rude, if you were not a good hindu and eat meat. (or ex hindus)

...

You underestimate the complexity of Hindu(I dont call it a religion, rather a culture), its undercurrents, its utterly bigoted parts. Its way too complex.

[MG 3]

Wigon,

Why does Honor killings happen in Western muslim socieites. These woman are scared and worried about being shunned by their communities. Not all of them wear it because they believe in the religion. You are being naive here about Asian Family values and culture.

If Im not wrong honor killings are popular amongst Sikhs and Hindus living abroad too. I blame the regional culture. Islam doesnt prohibit women from marrying who they will or impose punishment on how the dress. My mom being a Rajput I can say that most of these perverted believes are pre-Islamic.

[wigon]

Wigon,

Why does Honor killings happen in Western muslim socieites. These woman are scared and worried about being shunned by their communities. Not all of them wear it because they believe in the religion. You are being naive here about Asian Family values and culture.


Honor killing is not Islamic. That is a tribal practice that you find all over the Middle East and S.E. Asia and has been done in the West not just by Muslims, but by Hindus and Sikhs as well. Actually a bunch of them here in the US have been done by Buddhists from Cambodia and Laos.
Maybe in your country things are different, but in America I have yet to talk to any Muslim woman who says that she wore the hijab because she was forced to. I am not saying that it never happens, but that is not very common. With that said, those that don't wear the hijab do face pressure to do so. But it is done more in the name of Islamic unity more then for religious reasons. I don't agree with that and I've had good face to face debates with salafis about that issue in regards to its purpose and the lack of shariat laws that say a Muslim woman can be forced to wear a hijab or full abaya. It is more of an issue in the Middle East where traditinally a woman's hair is a symbol of her ******ity. This practice of covering the hair is found in Judaism and Catholicism and predates Islam by hundreds if not thousands of years.

If anything, it is Muslim women in the West that have more fear wearing it then not wearing it because of the harassment and discrimination that they receive in public. Again, in your country it may be different, but here in America, if you spend a day with a Muslim woman and go shopping and riding public transportation with her, you are guaranteed to hear racist or hateful remarks against her (and yourself as well if they assume you are her husband).

Wigon

[Adux]

So Arabs dont do honour killings, really? And I agree with your assesment that Hindu's have also done that, heck they even had a utterly deplorable practice called Sati. Now here is the difference : ITS OUTLAWED and SHUNNED UPON. Honour killings in Islam. NO.


Every religion ancient especially had violent and un-humanistic parts it. The Difference is, most have been reformed and are not practiced today in this day and age, IS it the same case with Islam. Nope.

[Adux]

Actually when we come back to the topic,

Do you think the lack of reformation and freedom is the reason behind the anger of the Islamic faith.

[ggk]

Now here is the difference : ITS OUTLAWED and SHUNNED UPON. Honour killings in Islam. NO.


it is outlaw too in islam adux... and shunned upon too... get your fact right. Some retard do it because of some dumb tradition...in my country those men were not protected, even more so everyone will condemned them.

murder and killing is one of the biggest sin in islam. If a moronic retarded idiot say he can kill, in the name religion....well thats because he (the retarded who kill in the name of honor killing) are dumb...in islam there were no such thing as honour killing.

[ggk]

even the topic title are wrong...and silly

[sikh_warrior]

Still Sikhs in UK they want to work with their own turban as a police too..Can i ask who killed Indira Gandhi?


there are some sikhs who didnt "IMPOSE" their religion on others, they won the right to wear turban by winning in a court.

one sikh ost his right to wear a turban while riding his motorcycle in canada, he was refused by the court! i guess u didnt read this one!

it were sikh bodyguards of indira gandhi who killed her and im ashamed of their act as a sikh. i was in delhi when riots took place after her murder.

[sikh_warrior]

a Hindu practicioner dont eat cow or meat...so if they dont want to eat meat in US, is it wrong? does the law of the land prevail?

hindus or non meat eater from india dont force anyone to stop eating meat or provide them with non meat food.

vegetarian food is healthy food and available freely in the "free world"p-)

they simply eat a vegetarian burger or eat a garden salad!p-)

[sikh_warrior]

honour killing is NOT islamic, it does takes place in punjab, haryana, UP, bihar....indian states!

[Adux]

it is outlaw too in islam adux... and shunned upon too... get your fact right. Some retard do it because of some dumb tradition...in my country those men were not protected, even more so everyone will condemned them.

Actually not in Pakistan nor in Saudia.


murder and killing is one of the biggest sin in islam. If a moronic retarded idiot say he can kill, in the name religion....well thats because he (the retarded who kill in the name of honor killing) are dumb...in islam there were no such thing as honour killing.

Well it seems, Islam has more of the retards.

South East-Asian people of Islamic faith, and Pakistani/Middle eastern people of Islamic faith are two different beasts.

[sikh_warrior]

well .....i dont hate you.....to say islam are not tolerance are not true...its us human that are not tolerance, not religion....for example , you are not tolerance..... i will not blame your religion, but i blame you.

kafir or infidel is an islamic word and its used for those who muslims considers outsiders/non belivers in islam.

in islam there is no religion but islam, no god but allah. that means they dont belive on others and in turn others have no right to live.

thats what i am and thats what your religion says....to hate an infidel!

this message is for GGK!

[wigon]

So Arabs dont do honour killings, really? And I agree with your assesment that Hindu's have also done that, heck they even had a utterly deplorable practice called Sati. Now here is the difference : ITS OUTLAWED and SHUNNED UPON. Honour killings in Islam. NO.


Every religion ancient especially had violent and un-humanistic parts it. The Difference is, most have been reformed and are not practiced today in this day and age, IS it the same case with Islam. Nope.


Again if you read what others posted, there is no such thing as honor killings in Islam and never did I say that Arabs don't do it. I very clearly mentioned that it was a practice in the Middle East but that is tribal in origin. Furthermore I have not heard that it was endorced by any government in the Middle East. If it is, then that is quite un-Islamic.
Even in America, such killings were done in the not-so distant past by white Amreicans who didn't want their daughters to marry a black man. There was a Mexican American NCO in my old Army unit that told me he would kill his daughter if she married a black man. He was dead serious.
So to bring it up as something that represents Islam is a very misleading arguement. What it represents is a sad cultural relic that still exists today and that usually stems from ethnic hatred mixed with highly patriarchal societies.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

so guys the question is:

what makes muslim men angry??

i know for some time madhuri and karishma made pakistani men drool! they asked for madhuri in kargil 1999.

what say MG3?

[Persian Snipers]

Religion is Religion, ive seen many different reason for religions, not just Islam.

Some religions are rooted inside cultures, and are sorta Secular. (Zoroastrianism)

Some religions are for Control and power(Islam)

Some religions are for money, and an easier hold on its followers.(Christianity)

Ive seen Bribes being taken in Christianity for people to get into heaven, I.E. do this and you will go into heaven, do this and you wont etc.

Islam is a more Violent religion, however all Religions are Religion in the end. They're Bull****.


As for Judaism, its just like Islam, not as violent, but both religions have their roots because Arabs and Jews are related. Also, they have the same restrictions, like pork.

[wigon]

kafir or infidel is an islamic word and its used for those who muslims considers outsiders/non belivers in islam.

in islam there is no religion but islam, no god but allah. that means they dont belive on others and in turn others have no right to live.

thats what i am and thats what your religion says....to hate an infidel!

this message is for GGK!

Nothing in Islam says that non-Muslims don't have a right to live. Again... its all in how you interpret Islam and there are some who do believe such things in Islam. But there is also extreme ignorance in Islam of the differences in the types of shariat law (levels) and the history of interpretations within various madhhabs. Shariat was originally meant as legal guidelines and not "You're not a Muslim if you don't believe in the Shariat" radicalism.

Wigon

[Adux]

Nothing in Islam says that non-Muslims don't have a right to live. Again... its all in how you interpret Islam and there are some who do believe such things in Islam. But there is also extreme ignorance in Islam of the differences in the types of shariat law (levels) and the history of interpretations within various madhhabs. Shariat was originally meant as legal guidelines and not "You're not a Muslim if you don't believe in the Shariat" radicalism.

Wigon

Wigon,

What is Jizya? Some of things you are defending, is in reality indefensible(which exist in every culture, religion etc). Which is diluting your credibility. I believe you have some good points, which I ascribe to.

[wigon]

Religion is Religion, ive seen many different reason for religions, not just Islam.

Some religions are rooted inside cultures, and are sorta Secular. (Zoroastrianism)

Some religions are for Control and power(Islam)

Some religions are for money, and an easier hold on its followers.(Christianity)

Ive seen Bribes being taken in Christianity for people to get into heaven, I.E. do this and you will go into heaven, do this and you wont etc.

Islam is a more Violent religion, however all Religions are Religion in the end. They're Bull****.


As for Judaism, its just like Islam, not as violent, but both religions have their roots because Arabs and Jews are related. Also, they have the same restrictions, like pork.


Not quite that simple. Religion serves far more sociological/psychological needs and have been used for both good and evil all through human history. Furthermore, secularist belief systems have taken on the exact same forms of social control to manipulate the masses into committing horrific acts of violence (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the entire Cold War).

When it comes down to it, religion is an ideology with the difference in that they claim legitimacy from divine non-human sources that can not be challenged. The fallacy of this (and why I do not believe in organized religions) is that even if such messages were the pure words of divinity, the fact of the matter is that they come through the lips and words of human beings in languages that are immediately ****e to mis-interpretation. Anyone who understands the symbolic nature of language and why such symbols are often mistranslated then understands why absolute faith and a literal belief in a written religion can be so dangerous.

That does not mean that wisdom can not be found in religion and it does not mean that genuine psychological needs can not be met by religion.
Many humans need to believe that there is some form of existence after this life. The alternative is horrifying. Furthermore science does not give a very satisfying answer for why bad things happen in the world.
So religion is essentially a comfort blanket in a world full of doubt, chaos, and fear. Religion is supposed to never change and remain like a rock in a stormy sea of change.
That basically is the appeal.

Wigon

[Adux]

It is fact, the rest of the religions are seen as second class. When you are told you are worlds perfect religion, true followers of god almighty. Yet, Your life is nothing or even as good as the infidels or kaffirs. How does that effect a person's mind who ascribe to that ideology called Islam.

[wigon]

Wigon,

What is Jizya? Some of things you are defending, is in reality indefensible(which exist in every culture, religion etc). Which is diluting your credibility. I believe you have some good points, which I ascribe to.


Jizya was the practice of collecting money from non-believers in a Islamic country. I'm not aware of any Muslim countries that still do this practice. A good explanation of Jizya can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

By the way, the practice of collecting tribute from conquered nations was standard practice back then. In some cases Islamic empires did not want people to convert as that hit their treasuries hard and reduced their ability to wage wars. Furthermore, the level of Jizyha changed alot during various periods of Islamic history.
Today, we are forced to pay taxes (and high ones at that) here in America and thus support wars and liberal social programs whether we like it or not. Regardless of who we vote for, we have to pay taxes or we lose our freedom and go to jail.

Wigon

[Adux]

so guys the question is:

what makes muslim men angry??

i know for some time madhuri and karishma made pakistani men drool! they asked for madhuri in kargil 1999.

what say MG3?


http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk20/jamesall4u/2.jpg (http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk20/jamesall4u/?action=view¤t=2.jpg)



And we gave'em exactly what they asked!!!! Courtesy of the Indian Airforce!!!lol:)

For all of you who dont know, Who Raveena Tandon is


http://mimg.sulekha.com/raveena-tandon/stills/rt47.jpg

[sikh_warrior]

wigon read what the t-shirt in my avatar says?

i wish there were more like you!p-)

[Adux]

Jizya was the practice of collecting money from non-believers in a Islamic country. I'm not aware of any Muslim countries that still do this practice. A good explanation of Jizya can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

By the way, the practice of collecting tribute from conquered nations was standard practice back then. In some cases Islamic empires did not want people to convert as that hit their treasuries hard and reduced their ability to wage wars. Furthermore, the level of Jizyha changed alot during various periods of Islamic history.
Today, we are forced to pay taxes (and high ones at that) here in America and thus support wars and liberal social programs whether we like it or not. Regardless of who we vote for, we have to pay taxes or we lose our freedom and go to jail.

Wigon

But Collections of taxes is not based on your religion is it? Or is it like that in America. This kind of arguments is counter-productive to your true intentions, Which I believe is noble. Never defend, indefensible,
Jizya, is still being collected in Pakistan. Islamic countries dont allow non-muslims to become their heads of state by LAW.

[wigon]

It is fact, the rest of the religions are seen as second class. When you are told you are worlds perfect religion, true followers of god almighty. Yet, Your life is nothing or even as good as the infidels or kaffirs. How does that effect a person's mind who ascribe to that ideology called Islam.

So far I've rarely been treated disrespectfully by any Muslim who saw that I had some knowlege about their religion and who I was respectful to. When I treated them with respect, they treated me with respect. Once at a local masjid a Saudi man attempted to insult me by giving me his left hand to shake as he saw me in the back of the mosque not praying.
I refused and just told him "Wa' Salam Alekum brother" with my right hand over my heart as is traditional in some parts of the Middle East. He sneered and walked away. However almost immediately several Muslims came up to me and apologized for his behavior.
So generally speaking I've experienced mutual respect from Muslims who I have spoken to face to face and online. Like in all cultures there are always a few a**holes that are impossible to get along with.

Wigon

[Persian Snipers]

Not quite that simple. Religion server far more sociological/psychological needs and have been used for both good and evil all through human history. Furthermore, secularist belief systems have taken on the exact same forms of social control to manipulate the masses into committing horrific acts of violence (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the entire Cold War).

When it comes down to it, religion is an ideology with the difference in that they claim legitimacy from divine non-human sources that can not be challenged. The fallacy of this (and why I do not believe in organized religions) is that even if such messages were the pure words of divinity, the fact of the matter is that they come through the lips and words of human beings in languages that are immediately ****e to mis-interpretation. Anyone who understands the symbolic nature of language and why such symbols are often mistranslated then understands why absolute faith and a literal belief in a written religion can be so dangerous.

That does not mean that wisdom can not be found in religion and it does not mean that genuine psychological needs can not be met by religion.
Many humans need to believe that there is some form of existence after this life. The alternative is horrifying. Furthermore science does not give a very satisfying answer for why bad things happen in the world.
So religion is essentially a comfort blanket in a world full of doubt, chaos, and fear. Religion is supposed to never change and remain like a rock in a stormy sea of change.
That basically is the appeal.

Wigon


Well said my friend. Well Said.

[wigon]

But Collections of taxes is not based on your religion is it? Or is it like that in America. This kind of arguments is counter-productive to your true intentions, Which I believe is noble. Never defend, indefensible,
Jizya, is still being collected in Pakistan. Islamic countries dont allow non-muslims to become their heads of state by LAW.


Really? Hmm.. I had not heard that. I don't agree with that, but to me its not a big deal unless its excessive. But if it's some token amount...not a big deal to me. As far as non-Muslims not allowed to become heads of state, yeah I don't defend that or agree with it, but there are alot of stuff that other countries do that I don't agree with. Again its not something we can expect to change overnight but that we may change over time.

Wigon

[Adux]

Saudi Arabia
In Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia), when a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the prescribed blood money rates are as follows[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya#cite_note-cgijedda-6):

100,000 riyals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyal) if the victim is a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya


I rest my case.

[Stan187]

Good to see you Stan here....not having fun at WAB anymore...lol ;)

You know, why give away one pleasure for another? I'd call this a eating the cake and having it too situation.p-)

[Adux]

You know, why give away one pleasure for another? I'd call this a eating the cake and having it too situation.p-)

Well my regards to OoE, Dreadnought and other fine gents over there. :)
Hope they are not missing you too much, or do they know that you have crossed over to the dark side. A place where you can freely express your views...with no consequence from the dark lords.woot

[wigon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya


I rest my case.


Yeah that is Saudi Arabia we're talking about....and also Iran. Two of the most fanatical Islamic regimes in the world. I'm sure you'll find a few other like that, but not many. Yemen probably has something similar although things have been changing there.
Also according to Shariat law blood money can ONLY be asked for if the family of the victim asks the court for mercy upon the accused. It is not up to the court to decide if the accused is found guilty.
At any rate, you will not find me defending Saudi Arabia's or Iran's application of the Shariat. You will find me however, heavily debating how they apply it both on this forum as well as on Islamic forums. That is why I suggest that you study the Shariat for yourself from multiple sources and not just neocon "Islamic experts" like Robert Spencer who basically just regurgitates the theology from a Salafi persepective.

Wigon

[Ulytau]

Adux mate example from Saudi Arabia?

Isnt Sarkozy said thank you to him personally about human rights after when he have chance sell something to em?

If you check from their history their ancestors tried to be problem for Ottoman Sultan and his uncle etc. executed cause they destroyed grave of the Prophet relatives..I can say really interesting rules from them today vahabism feedin radical terrorism ideology and most of em thinking people are infidel who wont think like em..

My point is the some things can chance difference at different cultures and characters..

Today honour killings;

Someone raping to someones daughter and girl relatives raping to girl before killing anyone can explain to me what is that?

Pure generalization wont help anything..

[Persian Snipers]

Yeah that is Saudi Arabia we're talking about....and also Iran. Two of the most fanatical Islamic regimes in the world. I'm sure you'll find a few other like that, but not many. Yemen probably has something similar although things have been changing there.
Also according to Shariat law blood money can ONLY be asked for if the family of the victim asks the court for mercy upon the accused. It is not up to the court to decide if the accused is found guilty.
At any rate, you will not find me defending Saudi Arabia's or Iran's application of the Shariat. You will find me however, heavily debating how they apply it both on this forum as well as on Islamic forums. That is why I suggest that you study the Shariat for yourself from multiple sources and not just neocon "Islamic experts" like Robert Spencer who basically just regurgitates the theology from a Salafi persepective.

Wigon


There is a big and important difference between those two countries.

Iranians dont support thier government.

Saudi Arabia doesn't have much defiance in their system.

All in all, Islam still has control....

[Adux]

Ulyatu,

I have said this before to you, There is difference in how I view Turkish Muslims, and Middle Eastern-South Asian Muslims.

[wigon]

There is a big and important difference between those two countries.

Iranians dont support thier government.

Saudi Arabia doesn't have much defiance in their system.

All in all, Islam still has control....


That is true. Almost all the Iranians I've talked to who either recently were in Iran or who I've talked to in Iran over the internet, hate their government. Most are secularists or athiests because they hate Islam being shoved down their throat. Ironically most of them also have excellent educations in part because of the good university systems developed during the Shah's reign. This fortunately was not destroyed by the Guardian Council. Because of this Iran is ranked #1 in "brain drain" because of all of their unversity graduates looking for jobs in other countries.
There are some good moderate Shi'a scholars who have spoken out against the regime, but most of them are in jail. :(
Genieve Abdo (who I've corresponded with and met personally) wrote an excellent book on the complex political situation in Iran called: "Answering Only To God: Faith & Freedom in 21st Century Iran. She and her husband documented the situation there for several years until they were kicked out by the Iranian government. For anyone who wishes to learn about Iran's political system and problems, I highly recommend that book as well as her other books on Islam. She is of Christian Lebanese descent by the way. The book can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Only-God-Freedom-Twenty-First-Century/dp/0805075143/ref=cm_syf_dtl_txt_7

Wigon

[wigon]

Ulyatu,

I have said this before to you, There is difference in how I view Turkish Muslims, and Middle Eastern-South Asian Muslims.

Still huge categories with vast differences within each group. Check out Indonesia Muslims. Some of the best years of my life were spent living amongst them.

Wigon

[Ulytau]

Ulyatu,

I have said this before to you, There is difference in how I view Turkish Muslims, and Middle Eastern-South Asian Muslims.

And my point is the it can show difference at characters too :)

Maybe you guys know sometimes Ramadan beeing in summer times when people fasting foreign people who living here was drinking beer ''Especially Germans sometimes i thinking beer coming from their tap'' and same time nobody was lookin to em but at Festival time after fasting same people were giving sweets to kids :)

Seems ancestors solve problem years ago;

Your religion is for you..

My religion is for me..

rofl

Bout myself of course i have sensitivity like every people but same time i am a metal head too p-)

[Adux]

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Aug ... 282455.asp (http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Aug32008/national2008080282455.asp)

Man beheaded for marrying Muslim girl
From Prasanta Paul, DH News Service, Kolkata:
In a gruesome incident, a Hindu man who married a Muslim girl, was beheaded after a kangaroo court ordered his "execution" at a village in Murshidabad district of West Bengal, reports reaching here said on Saturday.

Quote:
He was prompty awarded a “death sentence”, after the members unanimously agreed that he “offended” Islam by marrying a Muslim girl and concealing the same, reports said.




Man set on fire for marrying Muslim girl

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... trParentID (http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=India&id=d8485384-7a2a-4dba-abef-70e289861a52&&Headline=Man+set+on+fire+for+marrying+Muslim+girl&strParent=strParentID)

Quote:
Press Trust Of India
Kolkata, August 02, 2008
First Published: 21:47 IST(2/8/2008)
Last Updated: 21:52 IST(2/8/2008)

Close on the heels of the beheading of a man for marrying a girl outside his religion at a village in Murshidabad district, another man was set on fire by his in-laws on Friday at Anarpur village under Baduria PS in North 24-Parganas district for the same reason.

With severe burns, Arka Banerjee (22), a resident of Barasat's Chowdhurybagan, is now struggling for life in Barasat district hospital, Superintendent of Police of North 24-Parganas district, Supratim Sarkar, said in Kolkata on Saturday.

Arka met Rehana Sultana during frequent trips to Baduria where his uncle stayed. Later they fell in love and got married in 2006 at a marriage registrar's office.

Apprehending opposition from his family, Arka rented a house at Haora, away from his parents, and did odd jobs to earn his living.

However, the girl's family members traced the couple to Haora after a year and brought Rehana and her one-year-old son to Anarpur, while Arka was threatened with dire consequence if he returned to Baduria.

Early Friday, when Arka tried to enter his in-laws' house to get his wife and baby back, he was severely beaten up. Later Rehana's brother Monirul allegedly took out a tin of kerosene, poured it on him and set him on fire.

Some local people later rescued him by pouring water to douse the flames. He was then admitted to a local hospital and subsequently shifted to Barasat district hospital.

Arka's brother in-law Monirul was on Saturday arrested by the police on the basis of a statement by Arka at the hospital bed, the SP said.


Then, there are wierd dikats on how a woman should spend a night with another man for one day, only then can she remarry her already divorced husband etc. This and all above are from INDIA. Sadly

The Sharia is not compatible with modern times. Period.

[wigon]

And my point is the it can show difference at characters too :)

Maybe you guys know sometimes Ramadan beeing in summer times when people fasting foreign people who living here was drinking beer ''Especially Germans sometimes i thinking beer coming from their tap'' and same time nobody was lookin to em but at Festival time after fasting same people were giving sweets to kids :)

Seems ancestors solve problem years ago;

Your religion is for you..

My religion is for me..

rofl

Bout myself of course i have sensitivity like every people but same time i am a metal head too p-)


LONG LIVE SLAYER!!!
LOL! I'm a metal head too. lol! I play guitar and played in many metal bands in the 90's. My main guitar is a Washburn Dimebag 333 electric guitar...but I also have 11 guitars. lol!

At any rate, yeah I agree with the mainstream Turkish beliefs about religion. It is normally a good healthy tolerance and I hope Turkey continues to be the example for other Muslim countries.

Wigon

[wigon]

Then, there are wierd dikats on how a woman should spend a night with another man for one day, only then can she remarry her already divorced husband etc. This and all above are from INDIA. Sadly

The Sharia is not compatible with modern times. Period.


Please find where in the Shariat that you are supposed to kill someone if they marry a Muslim woman (or kill the woman). This is a case of people just acting barbaric and according to traditional tribal customs.

Wigon

[Adux]

Triple talaq issue : SC warns: India is secular, behave



Triple talaq issue
SC warns: India is secular, behave

Press Trust of India
Posted online: Friday, April 21, 2006 at 1513 hours IST
Updated: Friday, April 21, 2006 at 1604 hours IST

New Delhi, April 21: The Supreme Court on Friday directed the Orissa government to provide police protection to a Muslim couple who were forced to separate after local clerics issued a fatwa that they were divorced even though they wanted to live together.

The husband of petitioner Nazma Biwi had ****ounced triple talaq in an inebriated condition in 2004 but later realizing his mistake, he decided to live with his wife and three children.
However, local clerics at Bhadrak issued a fatwa that they were divorced and hence could not live together. Thereafter the couple was forced to live separately by the community. "No one can force them to live separately. This is a secular country. All communities---Hindus or Muslims should behave in civilised manner", a bench of Justice Ruma Pal, Justice C K Thakker and Justice Markandey Katju observed.

The observation came after the petioner's counsel complained that the couple continue to be ostracised by the Muslim community at Bhadrak in Orissa.
Orissa government counsel Shibo Shanker Mishra sought two weeks to file reply to Nazma's petition and the court obliged.
Earlier Nazma had approached the High Court against the fatwa and had sought police protection from her community men who were allegedly harassing the couple.
The incident had created a nation-wide controversy with various women organisations and civil society groups taking up cudgels on behalf of the harassed couple.
The clerics had said that if Nazma wanted to live with her husband, she must perform 'halala' (she must marry another man and the marriage must be consummated, after which she can get a divorce and then re-marry her first husband).
However, Nazma refused to do so, and instead knocked at the doors of the court.

http://muslimwatch.blogspot.com/2006/04/triple-talaq-issue-sc-warns-india-is.html

[Adux]

Leaving Islam is interpreted as punishable by death is it not, or should I find you a link for that too.
A girl marrying a boy, in customs here means, the girls takes on the religion of the boy. And not to mention Hindu's are not from the Abrahmic Lineage.

[wigon]

Leaving Islam is interpreted as punishable by death is it not, or should I find you a link for that too.
A girl marrying a boy, in customs here means, the girls takes on the religion of the boy. And not to mention Hindu's are not from the Abrahmic Lineage.


In the shariat yes. Apostates can be punished with death if again you follow the shariat literally. However, this woman was not giving up her religion and again there is still nothing that says that the family must kill the man she wants to marry. I challenge you to find anything in Hadiths that says that.
As far as the whole apostate thing, if they are so insecure about their religion, they should follow the Balinese Indonesian example in which the families completly disown anyone who converts from Hinduism to any other religion. This strategy has worked for hundreds of years in Bali despite the efforts of Christian and Muslim miissionaries.
A good Islamic scholar should understand that the spirit of the law is vastly more important then the literal letter of the Shariat. There are hadiths to support this. I need to look them up again as I need to write a paper on that subject. I just need to make sure that they are authentic hadiths and cross check them with Islamic scholars. Furthermore, Shariat law was designed to be applied with mercy with the harshest punishments difficult to carry out without enormous proof of guilt. Unfortunately today, it is carried out in a vigilante form with PUNISHMENT driving the interpretations rather then mercy.

Wigon

[ggk]

Leaving Islam is interpreted as punishable by death is it not, or should I find you a link for that too.
A girl marrying a boy, in customs here means, the girls takes on the religion of the boy. And not to mention Hindu's are not from the Abrahmic Lineage.

leaving islam is not punishable by death Adux, in some hadith it does sigested that, but that hadith were pointing issues during the early islam....no muslim take that literally as a teaching.... denouncing faith (murtad) were punished by god...not us.

yeah girl marrying boy.....i dont know your country were that backwards,,,nowadays love decided the marriage...not parents..

yeah and i heard even a Hindu or Christian family practiced that in India..(forced marriage)

[ggk]

Triple talaq issue : SC warns: India is secular, behave


do you understand what is talaq?....its a divorce annoncement by the man (husband) and fasakh are the divorce announcement by the wife (yes Adux islam allowed woman to divorced their husband)

[ggk]

Man beheaded for marrying Muslim girl
From Prasanta Paul, DH News Service, Kolkata:
In a gruesome incident, a Hindu man who married a Muslim girl, was beheaded after a kangaroo court ordered his "execution" at a village in Murshidabad district of West Bengal, reports reaching here said on Saturday.

Quote:
He was prompty awarded a “death sentence”, after the members unanimously agreed that he “offended” Islam by marrying a Muslim girl and concealing the same, reports said.



this have nothing to do with islam Adux...that retarded members of the village decided that from their hate...not from islamic teaching....yes in islam there is no such thing as "beheading because offending Islam"...what a moronic excuse to kill a indu man just because his religion.

[Hollis]

do you understand what is talaq?....its a divorce annoncement by the man (husband) and fasakh are the divorce announcement by the wife (yes Adux islam allowed woman to divorced their husband)


I think part of the problem people will mix culture and religion together. They will change aspect of their religion to support their culture. Problem for the outsiders what part is religion, what part is culture and what part is a combination of the two.

[ggk]

Originally Posted by sikh_warrior http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3436488#post3436488)
kafir or infidel is an islamic word and its used for those who muslims considers outsiders/non belivers in islam.


yes it is..even catholic christian call us muslims kaffir too.


in islam there is no religion but islam, no god but allah. that means they dont belive on others and in turn others have no right to live.


that is dumb. others have no right to live? where the frakk you get that? Thats the weirdest thing i ever heard in my life? hello? im a muslim and i dont even realise there is such teaching...in other words it is ridiculous.


thats what i am and thats what your religion says....to hate an infidel!

yes you are an infidel....and no sikh warrior...muslims are not thought to hate infidel or tp treat them as second class. We were thought all persons are equal infront of god..no caste, no rich and poor, etc...and we were thought that Iman or faith his His job not our job.


this message is for GGK!

yes thank you...and unlike you..i dont simply hate people because of their religion...unless if you hate metallica and black sabbath...then i hate you.

[makavelli]

leaving islam is not punishable by death Adux, in some hadith it does sigested that, but that hadith were pointing issues during the early islam....no muslim take that literally as a teaching.... denouncing faith (murtad) were punished by god...not us.

yeah girl marrying boy.....i dont know your country were that backwards,,,nowadays love decided the marriage...not parents..

yeah and i heard even a Hindu or Christian family practiced that in India..(forced marriage)

Its more toward culture instead of religion...

[Adux]

do you understand what is talaq?....its a divorce annoncement by the man (husband) and fasakh are the divorce announcement by the wife (yes Adux islam allowed woman to divorced their husband)

You didnt understand, the context. Read how it was handled by the clerics. I am not talking about Talaq per se, but how sharait is bad concept for modern world.

[Adux]

this have nothing to do with islam Adux...that retarded members of the village decided that from their hate...not from islamic teaching....yes in islam there is no such thing as "beheading because offending Islam"...what a moronic excuse to kill a indu man just because his religion.

I am sorry It is a sin punishable by death for marrying anyone outside the Muslim society, the only some clauses exist by which you can marry people of the Books(Jews and Christains).

Heck I have shown you the concept of Diyya, I might agree with it in some context just for the sake argument, however unethical it might be yet it goes again to differentiate people by religion and ***. Fair?

[Adux]

In the shariat yes. Apostates can be punished with death if again you follow the shariat literally. However, this woman was not giving up her religion and again there is still nothing that says that the family must kill the man she wants to marry. I challenge you to find anything in Hadiths that says that.

You answered your own question. Do check on the Sharia and Hadiths who are allowed to be married without conversion. Answer: Only the people of 3 faiths :Abrahamic.



As far as the whole apostate thing, if they are so insecure about their religion, they should follow the Balinese Indonesian example in which the families completly disown anyone who converts from Hinduism to any other religion.



But the temples dont release fatwa's to behead them. Islamic Clergy do.




This strategy has worked for hundreds of years in Bali despite the efforts of Christian and Muslim miissionaries.


Yet, Today Indoensia is a islamic country, and along with Malaysia the future Pakistan, if the bali bombings is anything to go by.



A good Islamic scholar should understand that the spirit of the law is vastly more important then the literal letter of the Shariat. There are hadiths to support this. I need to look them up again as I need to write a paper on that subject. I just need to make sure that they are authentic hadiths and cross check them with Islamic scholars. Furthermore, Shariat law was designed to be applied with mercy with the harshest punishments difficult to carry out without enormous proof of guilt. Unfortunately today, it is carried out in a vigilante form with PUNISHMENT driving the interpretations rather then mercy.

Check the Hudood laws. Sharia is impossible from a human rights perspective, prespecution of minorities in Islamic country is beyond anything. It is on the face discrimination based not on skin colour but your faith. Islam has to reform. Democracy and Secularism has to be followed.

[Adux]

leaving islam is not punishable by death Adux, in some hadith it does sigested that, but that hadith were pointing issues during the early islam....no muslim take that literally as a teaching.... denouncing faith (murtad) were punished by god...not us.



Well Lot of Mosque's are doing god's work for him/her.


yeah girl marrying boy.....i dont know your country were that backwards,,,nowadays love decided the marriage...not parents..

My country has quite lot of people of conservative nature, where marriage's arranged.



yeah and i heard even a Hindu or Christian family practiced that in India..(forced marriage)



That is true. it is punisable by law, but it mostly remain unreported, if reported the Police will take action. It is a societal problem. As law in this country, a man and woman can get married to each other after the age of 21 and 18 respectively, of any religion, any region, any whatever. It doesnt matter. That is the most important part, I am legally protected. Though I might be shunned by the society in some conservative areas.

[sikh_warrior]

i havent seen even a single muslim condeming all the murders, bombings and jehadis running amok killing innocent people as infidels, in MP forums!!

any specific reaons?

[Mastermind]

this have nothing to do with islam Adux...that retarded members of the village decided that from their hate...not from islamic teaching....yes in islam there is no such thing as "beheading because offending Islam"...what a moronic excuse to kill a indu man just because his religion.
You know, I would buy this excuse if it werenot for so many of these kinds of reports coming out of just about every Muslim community. Honor killings are a routine, behadeings seem to be an accepted way of dealing with even the most mundane problems, and there seems to be a mass stoning to death event at least once a month. Retarded...? From everywhere?

[wigon]

.

You answered your own question. Do check on the Sharia and Hadiths who are allowed to be married without conversion. Answer: Only the people of 3 faiths :Abrahamic.


That wasn't the question I challenged you with. I said find where it says that you can can kill anyone who marries outside their faith. It doesn't.



But the temples dont release fatwa's to behead them. Islamic Clergy do.

And there are lots of idiot Imams who are not scholars and have no business issuing fatwas based on their tribal traditions.



Yet, Today Indoensia is a islamic country, and along with Malaysia the future Pakistan, if the bali bombings is anything to go by.


Ah again... you are using that terrorist attack to judge all Muslims when it was done by one radical Al-Qaeda organization (Jemaah Islamiyah) that had very little support amongst Indonesian Muslims except for the small Salafist minority. One of Indonesia's biggest industries is tourism and not just in Bali. As such, the attacks devestated that industry and only now they are barely recovering from that. Both Bali and the city of Yogyakarta in central Java are seen as living museums to thousands of years of Indonesian culture that Indonesians are very proud of. It's only the radicals that want to make Indonesias take on Arab customs and Salafi shariat laws. Today Indonesia faces the threat of becoming radicalized through the millions of dollars being pumped into the mosques by Saudi Arabia along with massive amounts of extremist literature. However there are several Indonesia organizations that are working to stop that. The Indonesia government is beginning to recognize this as a major threat to their democracy and to their nation.

Hard core Salafi forms of government and laws would rip Indonesia apart in horrific bloody civil war as they have hundreds of ethnic groups and a very large population of non-Muslims.
Also... Indonesia is NOT a Shariat based government. Aside from the autonomous region of Aceh, shariat is only used in family courts for such things as divorce.




Check the Hudood laws. Sharia is impossible from a human rights perspective, prespecution of minorities in Islamic country is beyond anything. It is on the face discrimination based not on skin colour but your faith. Islam has to reform. Democracy and Secularism has to be followed.

The Hudood laws are insanely unIslamic. How the hell they could claim those are Islamic just blows my mind. Those are PAKISTANI laws that more tribal then Islamic. They stretch the interpretations such as saying that rape is the same as adultry when there is NOTHING in hadiths that say anything like that. Seriously look up everything regarding rape. There is no punishment specified for it in the Qur'an or Hadiths. That left Islamic communities to develop their own interpretations of shariat which as in the case of the Hudood laws, incorporated traditional tribal values regarding women. As an example of how far off they are, here is what the Qur'an says about women forced into prostitution (and essentially raped):

“But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)” (Qur'an - Al-Nûr: 33)

That verse shows how far off the Hudood laws are in such contravercial areas. They also do stuff like cutting off the hands and giving lashes for drinking alcohol. There are so many hadiths against such things and even one of the Sahaba had a drinking problem. But today radicals have blown such acts WAY out of proportion.

Is Islam still partial to men however? Yes absolutely. I'm not defending that. But the Hudood laws are a grotesque distortion of traditional shariat rulings inspired buy such Pakistani radical scholars as Mawdudi.
Furthermore, you can not force countries to change by threatening them or putting down their religion. That just reinforces the claims by the extremists that they are the true representatives of Islam and it helps to unite Muslims against secularists.
These efforts to modernize Islamic nations must be done through economic incentives to encourage them to change their laws as well as through working with moderate Islamic scholars to issue fatwas calling for more modern interpretations of Shariat based upon the most merciful applications found in Sunnah and in the Qur'an. Once that step is taken, gradually, more secular laws will take hold. But without setting the right climate for change, it is not up to the West to go invading countries over such things unless we're willing to commit genocide against Muslims. That is the logical conclusion to violent military action to halt the spread of Islam. Likewise we must change all of our constitutions and laws regarding freedom of religion.

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

if ggk publicly denounces the jehadi, either he will have to take refuge in an infidel country or face the sword!

what ggk?

[wigon]

You know, I would buy this excuse if it werenot for so many of these kinds of reports coming out of just about every Muslim community. Honor killings are a routine, behadeings seem to be an accepted way of dealing with even the most mundane problems, and there seems to be a mass stoning to death event at least once a month. Retarded...? From everywhere?


Its because you're glued to watching CNN and FOX news. Who are all these countries where such things are routine?
Honor killings are not routine by any means in Muslim countries. We probably have more killings of women by jealous men here in the United States per capita then the honor killings per capita in Islamic nations.
Beheadings? Only a few Islamic nations do that and they use a sword, not a knife to saw off heads like Al-Qaeda does. Here in America we execute criminals as well and violence is a way of life for much of our population....hence one of the largest prison populations in the world.
Stoning to death by the way is fairly rare in the Islamic world. Only the countries with the most extremist governments do that.

Wigon

[MG 3]

do you understand what is talaq?....its a divorce annoncement by the man (husband) and fasakh are the divorce announcement by the wife (yes Adux islam allowed woman to divorced their husband)

And apart from the assets the Husband has to pay the woman Khula too.

[MG 3]

i havent seen even a single muslim condeming all the murders, bombings and jehadis running amok killing innocent people as infidels, in MP forums!!

any specific reaons?

Want me to make a vid of me saying FVCK AQ in the middle of a mosque cause it wont be a problem.

The thing is that some orgs we call freedom movements are termed by the west/india as terrorists. So we cant put them all in the same frame.

[ggk]

if ggk publicly denounces the jehadi, either he will have to take refuge in an infidel country or face the sword!

what ggk?

no i will not take refuge anywhere! lol you are paranoid are you..nobody are going to do anything to me. I already denounce terrorist so many times in this forum...all you have to do are search for it.

Yeah and guess what? i have been debating this issues with retarded muslims too...yeah thank god most of them realise their mistake and return to the basic and being moderate.

and did i hate you sikh warrior? no..while it seems from your post you hate me and all muslims so much....its ridiculous to even think of the reason...

some terrorist bomb some places...WHAM! ALL MUSLIM ARE TERRORIST! LOL!

yes so funny...have you ever being generalise? i mean ridiculously generalise like that...yep...let me tell you sikh warrior.

generalising a race or religion like that are one of the most favorite human desease ever..yes. The reality is we human like to generalising people..you call it what ever name you can call....but i call it racism.

jews have been generalise for centuries, being call this and that....and they suffer for that...even Indian have been historically generalise and supress (you should know that) ...and here we are..what you did? here after all we learn about the suffering and humiliation that people..inocent people will and has suffer from this humiliation..here you did exactly the same thing....

how can you say you are civilised if your mentality were the same of those who make this mistake in history?

im unsubscribing this topic....you and adux make me sick.

[sikh_warrior]

me and adux make you sick!

well we are infidels, remember?p-)

[Adux]

GGK,

I have put forth my arguments, Now it might not be convenient for you. So I do understand. Bad part side of the Indian history"the subjugation" and all happened only in the past 400-500 years or so. We were here far far before that 7000 years infact.

Adux

[Mastermind]

Its because you're glued to watching CNN and FOX news. Who are all these countries where such things are routine?
Honor killings are not routine by any means in Muslim countries. We probably have more killings of women by jealous men here in the United States per capita then the honor killings per capita in Islamic nations.
Beheadings? Only a few Islamic nations do that and they use a sword, not a knife to saw off heads like Al-Qaeda does. Here in America we execute criminals as well and violence is a way of life for much of our population....hence one of the largest prison populations in the world.
Stoning to death by the way is fairly rare in the Islamic world. Only the countries with the most extremist governments do that.

Wigon
Whjat possible difference could it make who reports these acts of savagry? They either happened or they didn't. And, since much of the footage comes from within the Islamic regime, I have to assume they happened. Also, how can you excuse such savagry as , It dosen't happen very often" or "Only withn a few of the most extremists governments do that."

My god, man, do you not read what you wrote? Do ytou not realize these barbaric acts are supported by Islamic regimes and are justified by the Quoran? The largest and most vitrolic of the Islamic states heavily relys on savage brutality justified by the state sponsored religion to keep the people supporessed and in a state of terror.

Can you imagine the outcry if the United States government allowed some people, just a few, to keep and torture slaves? Well, it is justified becasue there is not that much of it going on?

That's like saying someone is just a little bit pregnant...there is no such thing. It either is or it is not.

As long as there is a single Islamic state practicing terror and horror and justifying it by the holy book of the religion, and the mass majority of the adherents of Islam do not insist that be stopped, then all of Islam is at risk and poses a dire threat to all civilized human beings.

[wigon]

Whjat possible difference could it make who reports these acts of savagry? They either happened or they didn't. And, since much of the footage comes from within the Islamic regime, I have to assume they happened. Also, how can you excuse such savagry as , It dosen't happen very often" or "Only withn a few of the most extremists governments do that."

My god, man, do you not read what you wrote? Do ytou not realize these barbaric acts are supported by Islamic regimes and are justified by the Quoran? The largest and most vitrolic of the Islamic states heavily relys on savage brutality justified by the state sponsored religion to keep the people supporessed and in a state of terror.

Can you imagine the outcry if the United States government allowed some people, just a few, to keep and torture slaves? Well, it is justified becasue there is not that much of it going on?

That's like saying someone is just a little bit pregnant...there is no such thing. It either is or it is not.

As long as there is a single Islamic state practicing terror and horror and justifying it by the holy book of the religion, and the mass majority of the adherents of Islam do not insist that be stopped, then all of Islam is at risk and poses a dire threat to all civilized human beings.

Wow. You totally missed my point. It is EXTREMELY important to look at how often such things happen. You can't judge an entire religion or nation by a few acts of savagery. If you did, then America must be the most savage nation on earth as we have hundreds of violent crimes happening every day in this country.
So please again explain to me how you arrive at your conclusion based upon a few reports of such incidents every month?

I've also spent the last few pages refuting that all of this comes from the religion of Islam and you either are not reading what I say or simply decided not to believe me. That is your choice but please don't make me repeat over and over the same arguements and refuse to challenge the theology I put forth. To say, "Well if the wahabis do it, then it must be what Islam is all about" is again simply saying that they are the true representatives of Islam and that all other interpretations are not Islamic. So if you wish to believe the fundamentalists and radicals of Islam, then again you are free to do so. Al-Qaeda would be pleased to hear that as such attitudes are exactly what they were hoping to build not only amongst Muslims but amongst the Western academic "experts" on Islam.
I am not saying Islam is some peaceful religion or that we should not be wary. I am not even saying that we should compromise. All I am saying is that we need to understand that what we fear. Otherwise we become victims of hype, fear-mongoring, and refuse to acknowledge Muslims who are trying to do the right thing. The only problem is that what they may consider being the "right thing" may not be entirely what you want. People don't change their religion overnight. Alot of people do things I don't like including my own government. But that's life and you just have to deal with it and work through it to a solution without causing unecessary drama and hostility.

If they all become the enemy, then we have only one choice...that is to exterminate them.

Wigon

[Mastermind]

Now, you're talking my talk...that's what I personally think will eventually happen.

[wild_wild_wes]

Either that, or mount a campaign to destroy ALL their infrastructure, of any and all kind, and return them to the 7th century they so fervently idolize. Then the rest of the world can finally have peace as their population levels implode over a few decades.

But the threat MUST be dealt with before thay get nukes and something unfortunate happens.

[sikh_warrior]

If they all become the enemy, then we have only one choice...that is to exterminate them.

Wigon

who gives you the right to say those harsh words against innocent unarmed muslims? the fight is against the jehadis and radicalls, not women childern and innocent!

i have opinion againt radicallised jehadi muslims, but never against innocents!

sad to hear such a statment from you wigon, i really liked your earlier posts!

[wigon]

who gives you the right to say those harsh words against innocent unarmed muslims? the fight is against the jehadis and radicalls, not women childern and innocent!

i have opinion againt radicallised jehadi muslims, but never against innocents!

sad to hear such a statment from you wigon, i really liked your earlier posts!


I don't remember if I said it earlier, but I have Sikh friends and I admire them for their knoweldge on Islam (plus they taught me some kick ass martial arts stuff). If you look at your fellow anti-Muslim friends, they answer the question for you. They have claerly indicated that they are more then willing to kill Muslim women and children. You are NOT them. They will just as happily kill you off if you dare pose a theat to them. They generalize and are more then willing to have innocent women and children killed. That is what I am trying to emphasize. There are peaceful means to be tried before such horrific genocide is used. I have outlined the means of working with moderate Islamic groups. But I have very little support from those who hate ALL Muslims. Fortunately I do have some support from within the US Army and they are readily putting what I preach into practice with positive results in Iraq. But my larger concern is with politicians and major neocon anti-Islamic leaders like Robert Spencer. I have had good results speaking with neocons like Dinesh D'Souza (who I gave a copy of my counter-terrorism proposals personally) and I hope to eventually have a face to face meeting with Robert Spencer unless he's afraid of me. I'm more then happy when such people use my ideas with no credit towards me. For me it is a life's work to have my ideas put into practice on a large scale. If nobody remembers what I did it really doesn't matter. What matters to me is that I left this world a better place because I was here. That for me is a life well lived.


Wigon

[wigon]

Either that, or mount a campaign to destroy ALL their infrastructure, of any and all kind, and return them to the 7th century they so fervently idolize. Then the rest of the world can finally have peace as their population levels implode over a few decades.

But the threat MUST be dealt with before thay get nukes and something unfortunate happens.


And you speak for all Muslims who reject extremists? You are willing to kill all of them as well? You are willing to hunt down and kill every American or citizen of a Western nation who is a Muslim? Are you ready to put a bullet into a Muslim kid's brain? How about a woman? Are you ready to execute a Muslim woman as she screams "Allah'u Akbar" at you?
Have you thought about how you would do it? Knife or bullet? Knife is more personal and slow? You might want to savor the kill if you lust for blood in such a way.
If you fear Muslims so much...then man up and be ready to kill as their extremists kill innocent people. Surely you must lower yourself to their tactics do you not? How about gas chambers? You know the Nazis had problems with SS soldiers becoming de-moralized shooting Jews (not to mention bullets were expensive) so they developed the gas chambers. It was seen as a more "clean" way of killing Jews. Would that be better for you? You do realize that 8+ million Muslims live in the U.S.A not to mention many more millions in Europe do you not? Who will execute them all?

Mastermind, this question goes for you as well.

May God forgive you and all like you if it comes to that.


Wigon

[Adux]

Wigon,

There are couple factual errors in your posts, Diya, Jizya, Taqqiyah and killing of apostates is all given in the haddiths. The haddiths are in use today, so calling them tribal would be a factual error. Though I might agree with you that those are not found in Quran. Now, the history of Islamic countries through out the world, including south east asian country like Malaysia, which uses such abhorent policies like Bhumiputra, and societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim etc. I agree, that such evil practices are there in every religion. But the difference is non of them agree or practice that, atleast not in the scale of Islamic countries.

Calling any religion in its core peaceful is a factual error. My best friend is Islamic, but he is secular. I LIVE in a Mixed society of greater proportions than you, Every other person who I come into contact with is Islamic. There is a self-ghettoisation wether you like it admit it or not.

I cannot provide you the links, where I have told couple of my islamphobe countrymen, that we cannot wish away 200 million Indian Muslims. Iron hand in a velvet glove would be in my opinion the right approach. We should protect the people who are with us. But mind you, they are miniscule. Most people of Islamic faith sympathize with terrorist in one way or other labelling them "reactionary, blame West, Zion, Hindu etc; misguided youths etc. Every muslim looks up to KSA, now their racist bigotted behavior in some many ways inspires these people to be violent to other religions? Why are you not looking into that?

I aint religious by a mile, but isnt democracy, secularism(stalin, saddam and all, had other ideas) and human values more important to co-exist in this tiny blue planet. How will you attain that, when what you have for non-muslims is utter contempt for their beliefs.

[nasiru]

Now, the history of Islamic countries through out the world, including south east asian country like Malaysia, which uses such abhorent policies like Bhumiputra, and societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim etc.

Im sorry but you need to read more and understand about bumiputera policies,its more race based than religion based . There are also social prejudice in India but you have already said its illegal , but there are people that don't care about the law .Also you want to back your "societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim" with some source ?

[Adux]

Im sorry but you need to read more and understand about bumiputera policies,its more race based than religion based .

Somehow all this race and religion based valuing of humans always happen in Islamic countries. Coincidence?


There are also social prejudice in India but you have already said its illegal , but there are people that don't care about the law


Simple thing, I am originally from the so called 'lower caste', say something about me in dergotary manner. 1 complaint and I can fry his ass.


Also you want to back your "societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim" with some source ?

Oh, it is easy visit Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the middle east. Look at salary structures.

[nasiru]

Somehow all this race and religion based valuing of humans always happen in Islamic countries. Coincidence?


Well ,i can say the same for india with its caste system and hinduism , coincidence ?




Simple thing, I am originally from the so called 'lower caste', say something about me in dergotary manner. 1 complaint and I can fry his ass.
YOU can but what do you think about the other so called "lower caste" people when they complaint ? I hope the authorities do their job .



Oh, it is easy visit Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the middle east. Look at salary structures.I asked for some source because of your post earlier saying my country (malaysia) dont give jobs to non muslim . However maybe there are cases in the middle east or other country .I hope you dont assume muslim countries are all same .

including south east asian country like Malaysia, which uses such abhorent policies like Bhumiputra, and societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim etc

[wigon]

Wigon,

There are couple factual errors in your posts, Diya, Jizya, Taqqiyah and killing of apostates is all given in the haddiths. The haddiths are in use today, so calling them tribal would be a factual error. Though I might agree with you that those are not found in Quran. Now, the history of Islamic countries through out the world, including south east asian country like Malaysia, which uses such abhorent policies like Bhumiputra, and societal prejudices where man doesnt give jobs to non-muslim etc. I agree, that such evil practices are there in every religion. But the difference is non of them agree or practice that, atleast not in the scale of Islamic countries.


You are misunderstanding or misquoting me. I never said that all of those things were not in the Hadiths. I only said that about honor killings. I don't think I even said anything at all about Diya. You may be confusing me with one of the Muslim posters.
What I argued about was that the interpretations of many of those things has changed tremendously over the centuries and that many of them are open to a wide range of interpretation in order to fit the times.
I know nothing about Bhumiputra so I can't comment on whether it is Islamic or not without doing more research on it. If its only found in Malaysia chances are that it is some distorted mixture of traditional Malaysian cultural practices and Islam.



Calling any religion in its core peaceful is a factual error. My best friend is Islamic, but he is secular. I LIVE in a Mixed society of greater proportions than you, Every other person who I come into contact with is Islamic. There is a self-ghettoisation wether you like it admit it or not.

I cannot provide you the links, where I have told couple of my islamphobe countrymen, that we cannot wish away 200 million Indian Muslims. Iron hand in a velvet glove would be in my opinion the right approach. We should protect the people who are with us. But mind you, they are miniscule. Most people of Islamic faith sympathize with terrorist in one way or other labelling them "reactionary, blame West, Zion, Hindu etc; misguided youths etc. Every muslim looks up to KSA, now their racist bigotted behavior in some many ways inspires these people to be violent to other religions? Why are you not looking into that?

I aint religious by a mile, but isnt democracy, secularism(stalin, saddam and all, had other ideas) and human values more important to co-exist in this tiny blue planet. How will you attain that, when what you have for non-muslims is utter contempt for their beliefs.

Again I can't comment about Muslims in India as I've never been there and have not done much research on India in particular. If what you say is accurate, then that is very sad. But I don't see how oppressing 200 million people will make things better. If anything it is likely to increase violence between Hindu's and Muslims. How can you tell apart the nice ones from the bad ones? You said yourself they are a tiny minority.
What can be done however is for the Indian governement to do what I suggested which is to support moderate Islamic centers in India to publish counter-propaganda to combat all of the extremists crap coming from Saudi Arabia. That means counter-propaganda on TV, newspaper, radio, and internet. If the government is that worried, they should give a good effort at doing this before implementing harsh oppressive measures.

That essentially is all I am advocating. Fighting radical Islam with Islam itself.

Wigon

[Adux]

[QUOTE]
Well ,i can say the same for india with its caste system and hinduism , coincidence ?



What about ILLEGAL, dont you understand.


YOU can but what do you think about the other so called "lower caste" people when they complaint ? I hope the authorities do their job

They do, find out how reservation has empowered the previous oppresed classes..


I asked for some source because of your post earlier saying my country (malaysia) dont give jobs to non muslim . However maybe there are cases in the middle east or other country .I hope you dont assume muslim countries are all same .

I do think they are the same, South East Asian Muslim countries were better off. But they are going down the slippery slope now.

[Adux]

You are misunderstanding or misquoting me. I never said that all of those things were not in the Hadiths. I don't think I even said anything at all about Diya. You may be confusing me with one of the Muslim posters.
What I argued about was that the interpretations of many of those things has changed tremendously over the centuries and that many of them are open to a wide range of interpretation in order to fit the times.
I know nothing about Bhumiputra so I can't comment on whether it is Islamic or not without doing more research on it. If its only found in Malaysia chances are that its not very Islamic
.


See that is my bone of contention. Reformation,




Again I can't comment about Muslims in India as I've never been there and have not done much research on India in particular. If what you say is accurate, then that is very sad. But I don't see how oppressing 200 million people will make things better. If anything it is likely to increase violence between Hindu's and Muslims. How can you tell apart the nice ones from the bad ones? You said yourself they are a tiny minority.
What can be done however is for the Indian governement to do what I suggested which is to support moderate Islamic centers in India to publish counter-propaganda to combat all of the extremists crap coming from Saudi Arabia. That means counter-propaganda on TV, newspaper, radio, and internet. If the government is that worried, they should give a good effort at doing this before implementing harsh oppressive measures.


So what do you want to do, Appease. I am sorry that only gives them strength. We have tried that and failed. It will only create a bigger demon, as it has been found by stroking the Muhajideen against Soviet Union. I am not ready to tread that path anymore. I never said oppersive, nor do I agree with it, You are the expert, Tell me how we can make the nutjobs from the sea of people, how we can get them to give us the people that are creating the problem. I am not a islamophobe at the same time I am not naive to underestimate or appease the greatest threat now to Human rights, democracy and secularism.

[Adux]

Reformation of Islam should start at Saudi Arabia.

[wigon]

[quote=nasiru;3440725]

What about ILLEGAL, dont you understand.



They do, find out how reservation has empowered the previous oppresed classes..



I do think they are the same, South East Asian Muslim countries were better off. But they are going down the slippery slope now.


All I know is that alot of Americans and Europeans are making HUGE $$$$ salaries working in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, and Oman.
But if you're brown skinned and don't have college degrees...then yeah..you end up with crap jobs in those countries without much chance to move up.

Wigon

[Adux]

[quote=Adux;3440751]


All I know is that alot of Americans and Europeans are making HUGE $$$$ salaries working in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, and Oman.
But if you're brown skinned and don't have college degrees...then yeah..you end up with crap jobs in those countries without much chance to move up.

Wigon


2 of my friends from my MBA course in UK married to each other, The girl is white and the man is an Indian, Working in the same company in dubai at the same level. Their Salary difference is 45% from each other.

Indians who work abroad in most cases are not Uneducated, poor maybe but not uneducated.

[wigon]

Reformation of Islam should start at Saudi Arabia.


I agree. But its easier to do counter-propaganda in India where Hindus are still the dominant group in the population and government.
Changing Saudi values is more of a long term project that will take serious effort on the part of powerful nations like the United States. But so far the U.S. has been unwilling to get serious as they're afraid of oil being cut off. Hopefully I can get the State Department to try applying some of my ideas. Really a dedicated covert government organization needs to be created to coordinate covert counter-propaganda in hardline Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Pakistan where most of the terrorism is coming from. Some of it can be done diplomatically if the host nations are convinced that it's better for their ruling regime. Other types of counter-propaganda can be smuggled in and done via the internet and radio broadcasts from offshore ships or neighboring countries willing to accept such radio stations.
The internet however is one of the best avenues of conducting mass counter-propaganda.

Wigon

[wigon]

2 of my friends from my MBA course in UK married to each other, The girl is white and the man is an Indian, Working in the same company in dubai at the same level. Their Salary difference is 45% from each other.

Indians who work abroad in most cases are not Uneducated, poor maybe but not uneducated.

They are working the same job as well? That makes a big difference in salary. And I never said Indians working abroad were uneducated. However in general take a look at all the people doing the construction work in Dubai. You won't see any Arabs and you won't see anyone who is white working those jobs where the workers face horrific working conditions.

Wigon

[Adux]

They are working the same job as well? That makes a big difference in salary. And I never said Indians working abroad were uneducated. However in general take a look at all the people doing the construction work in Dubai. You won't see any Arabs and you won't see anyone who is white working those jobs where the workers face horrific working conditions.

Wigon

They are both Financial advisors. Ofcourse most of the construction works are from South Asia, and their conditions are horrible,

[sikh_warrior]

guys guys guys guys....cut it out.

we are here not to HATE each other, we are here to co-exist! so we should be talking and finding solutions to each other's problems.

so lets co-exist and find some lasting solutions to co-exist with love rather than hate.

peace to all.

[Adux]

Wigon,

Regardless, Muslims anywhere in the world look upto Saudia. As the holder of the twin holy cities. Unless and until the keepers of religion changes, the followers wont.

[nasiru]

What about ILLEGAL, dont you understand.
A lot of things are illegal but some people do it anyway :roll:



They do, find out how reservation has empowered the previous oppresed classes..
lets hope it can last .



I do think they are the same, South East Asian Muslim countries were better off. But they are going down the slippery slope now.

all Muslims look the same to you ? then, no matter how other people try you cant be convinced otherwise anyway .

[sikh_warrior]

hey guys how about we take a break from the heated debate of this topic and have some beer and sausages to cool down the tempers?

[wigon]

.


See that is my bone of contention. Reformation,




So what do you want to do, Appease. I am sorry that only gives them strength. We have tried that and failed. It will only create a bigger demon, as it has been found by stroking the Muhajideen against Soviet Union. I am not ready to tread that path anymore. I never said oppersive, nor do I agree with it, You are the expert, Tell me how we can make the nutjobs from the sea of people, how we can get them to give us the people that are creating the problem. I am not a islamophobe at the same time I am not naive to underestimate or appease the greatest threat now to Human rights, democracy and secularism.


Appeasement??? Depends on how you define appeasement. Some people define appeasement as anything you do that is nice towards Muslims.
I would say no. I don't advocate appeasement to such things as demands for shariat law in non-Muslim countries, nor appeasement towards giving Muslims the right to advocate publicly killing innocent people in the name of any religion.

Now again, I am not an expert on India and this is not a detailed plan, but rather a general outline of the type of counter-propaganda efforts that can be done.

Here is what a well-funded Indian counter-extremist organization could do:

1. Begin by identifying well known moderate Muslim leaders and or organizations who have a known track record of speaking out against extremists and preaching tolerance. Approach these Imams and organizations to see if they were willing to take part in a counter-propaganda program. They must be vetted thoroughly as to their attitudes towards Salafism and Saudi Arabia. If they have libraries that are open to the public a good look in there or taking a good look at the books in their offices will usually give you a good idea as well of their interests. It is here were intelligence agencies are also important as far as vetting such organizations and individuals to insure that they have no ties to Islamic extremists.

2. Gather information identifying the most radical mosques in India, who their leaders are, and what organizations they sponsor. (Indian intelligence agencies likely have much of this information already).

3. Identify the manner in which they distribute their propaganda and the forms of media used.

4. Identify the most important messages in the wahhabi propaganda that is most threatening to India's national security and secular government. You must not get sidetracked on waste time on non-critical issues. The focus must be on the areas that the Salafis are theologically the weakest as well.

5. With the assistance of the moderate Islamic leaders develop counter-arguements against the radical Wahabi messages. These must be based on solid theology. Research can be done to collect counter-arguements from notable Islamic scholars from around the world who have refuted Salafi and Al-Qaeda doctrine in order to form a comprehensive compilation of counter-arguements that are thoroughly backed up with authentic Islamic sources. Research must also be done to find the best Salafi responses to these challenges so that such responses can be met and dealt with.

6. A top marketing agency is then contracted to then place the moderate Islamic counter-arguements against Salafism into a format that is best suited for the target audience. This includes ensuring that the message evokes Islamic symbolism and that any music is voice only (no instruments as that is haram in Salafi beliefs). The Salafis must be portrayed as hypocrits creating chaos in Pakistan and India as agents of Shaitan. The moderates must be shown as leaders of the Ummah uniting Muslims and leading by example in India. Nobility, honor, and virtue must be emphasized. Emphasis must also be made on the history of flexibility within the shariat and show the commonalities between some of the Shariat laws and Indian secular laws. The important thing is to remember that the target audience is salafi Indian Muslims.

If there are constitutional laws preventing such programs publicly, then such an organization must be covert and work as the shadow coordinator of actual Islamic organizations using covert funding practices.

7. If those methods are not working, there are other strategies that can be employed but those are not for public posting. I can send you a PM if you are interested.

Wigon

[wigon]

hey guys how about we take a break from the heated debate of this topic and have some beer and sausages to cool down the tempers?



HARAM!! HARAM!!! wait... hmm... that actually sounds pretty good.
Hmmm....beeeeeeer!!!!!
:)

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

nice points mentioned by you wigon. but alas! indian politicians are too much vote centric!

muslims in india are only cared for when elections are round the corner and looked upon as only, i say only as vote banks, and nothing else!

belive me when i say this, thats the sad part of the democracy in india and thats the state of muslims in india considering they ruled india for few hundred years!

nobody cares for muslims in india, but come elections and every political party is busy appeasing them!

anyway who's in for beer and sausages besides wigon? they are chicken n beef , no pork. i dont want to hurt any one's feelings or sentiments!

[Adux]

Appeasement??? Depends on how you define appeasement. Some people define appeasement as anything you do that is nice towards Muslims.
I would say no. I don't advocate appeasement to such things as demands for shariat law in non-Muslim countries, nor appeasement towards giving Muslims the right to advocate publicly killing innocent people in the name of any religion.


Any Special privalages. Do You know the Indian Government blacked out Killing of Hindu pandits in Kashmir, Nobody knew in India for sometime. The prepatators where never caught. 60 people were killed by Muslims by burning the godhra train, resulting in the 2002 Gujarat Riots. Nothing there either. Muslims have their special laws etc, which makes them a special in front of the majority community.
When they are treated the same as any other Indian, I would call that fair. Funny, how muslims call that their community is somehow shortchanged and poor. Fine. So 200 million muslims are all poor, so who are the rest of the 600 million poor in India? Aliens?


Now again, I am not an expert on India and this is not a detailed plan, but rather a general outline of the type of counter-propaganda efforts that can be done.

Here is what a well-funded Indian counter-extremist organization could do:



1. Begin by identifying well known moderate Muslim leaders and or organizations who have a known track record of speaking out against extremists and preaching tolerance. Approach these Imams and organizations to see if they were willing to take part in a counter-propaganda program. They must be vetted thoroughly as to their attitudes towards Salafism and Saudi Arabia. If they have libraries that are open to the public a good look in there or taking a good look at the books in their offices will usually give you a good idea as well of their interests. It is here were intelligence agencies are also important as far as vetting such organizations and individuals to insure that they have no ties to Islamic extremists.


KSA has money, and those money are easily trasffered to India through Indian Muslims working in Middle eastern countries, you have to understand the taxation structure for Non-Resident Indian to understand what I am talking about. Indian Government cannot match them in terms of funds.
And you are talking about Imams who are only versed in Islamic Education and nothing else. Their views are far more narrower than their western counterparts.



2. Gather information identifying the most radical mosques in India, who their leaders are, and what organizations they sponsor. (Indian intelligence agencies likely have much of this information already).



Agreed, but our intelligence agencies are the worst, and the muslim communities are tight knit.



3. Identify the manner in which they distribute their propaganda and the forms of media used.


Liberal Media, Use our own laws against us. This is their main mode of operation.


4. Identify the most important messages in the wahhabi propaganda that is most threatening to India's national security and secular government. You must not get sidetracked on waste time on non-critical issues. The focus must be on the areas that the Salafis are theologically the weakest as well.

How are Salafi's weakest theological. I know Indian High Court Judges who are Salafist. This is not easy. The situation is grim and intertwined.



5. With the assistance of the moderate Islamic leaders develop counter-arguements against the radical Wahabi messages. These must be based on solid theology. Research can be done to collect counter-arguements from notable Islamic scholars from around the world who have refuted Salafi and Al-Qaeda doctrine in order to form a comprehensive compilation of counter-arguements that are thoroughly backed up with authentic Islamic sources. Research must also be done to find the best Salafi responses to these challenges so that such responses can be met and dealt with.



The problem is those Islamic Scholars will be killed or thrown out first.



6. A top marketing agency is then contracted to then place the moderate Islamic counter-arguements against Salafism into a format that is best suited for the target audience. This includes ensuring that the message evokes Islamic symbolism and that any music is voice only (no instruments as that is haram in Salafi beliefs). The Salafis must be portrayed as hypocrits creating chaos in Pakistan and India as agents of Shaitan. The moderates must be shown as leaders of the Ummah uniting Muslims and leading by example in India. Nobility, honor, and virtue must be emphasized. Emphasis must also be made on the history of flexibility within the shariat and show the commonalities between some of the Shariat laws and Indian secular laws. The important thing is to remember that the target audience is salafi Indian Muslims.


Most of the people here are uneducated, A Urban-centric marketing agency can only do so much.


If there are constitutional laws preventing such programs publicly, then such an organization must be covert and work as the shadow coordinator of actual Islamic organizations using covert funding practices

Possible, but the problem is penetration into our target audience.



7. If those methods are not working, there are other strategies that can be employed but those are not for public posting. I can send you a PM if you are interested.



I am always ready to learn, not that I am in a position to do anything.

[Adux]

Sikh Warrior,

Muslims never ruled India for 1000 years? Where did you dig that from. That is the usual Pakistani propaganda.

[Adux]

Sikh Warrior,

Start Counting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

;)

Islamic Sultanates of Deccan 106 years (1490 - 1596)
Islamic Sultanates of Delhi 320 years (1206 - 1526)
The Mughal Empire 332 years (1526- 1858)

These are overlapping years. NO WAY, at most, and I stretch it. They can say ruled for 650 years (1206-1858) Which in itself is fallacy, because ruling a small piece of real state in North doesnt meant they ruled in the South too, which were ruled by Southern Kingdoms. So they NEVER EVER RULED INDIA. They ruled a part present day India.

Do understand that by 1858, Mughal Empire was smaller than Harayana(can you imagine that). It was the Sikh Empire which ruled the north while the Middle India was ruled by Maratha. From here on Brits took over. No Empire Except for Ashoka's Empire contained the full extend of Present day India.

[sikh_warrior]

my reply edited, it was just a way of saying islam ruled india at some point!

im glad british didnt hand back india in islamic hands during independence.

[Adux]

my reply edited, it was just a way of saying islam ruled india at some point!

im glad british didnt hand back india in islamic hands during independence.

You really have to learn your History, Read through the link I posted

Brits conquered our lands from the Maratha's and Sikhs and other Kingdoms. The Mughal Kingdom was came to its peak(physical sense) under Auragazeb and died a sudden death on his death. The lesser kings of Mughals ruled after that (14 Kings in 110 years), so imagine the turmoil and decline of authority. By 1862 Bahadur Shah Zafar ruled just Delhi and its outskirts. Then came the Maratha and Sikh Kingdom. As a Sikh this is one of your golden ages, you should know better 1799-1858. See how the timelines overlap between different empires. That is because Maratha, Sikh and Mughal Empire were together ruled parts of present day India. Mughal Empire, existed as an Empire only till 1640

[wigon]

KSA has money, and those money are easily trasffered to India through Indian Muslims working in Middle eastern countries, you have to understand the taxation structure for Non-Resident Indian to understand what I am talking about. Indian Government cannot match them in terms of funds.
And you are talking about Imams who are only versed in Islamic Education and nothing else. Their views are far more narrower than their western counterparts.


The good thing about such programs is that they do not necessarily have to cost alot of money. If you remove TV propaganda, you would save alot of money as that usually is the most expensive. It still could be done effectively without TV. As for finding moderate Islamic scholars, I would suggest Sufis but the problem with that is that some Sufis have mixed up Islam so much with other religions that their theology is weak and so they rarely argue much with Salafis. Such a program might require Islamic scholars from other countries that could be hired to do such work.
For example, if I was hired by the US government to do such work, I could come up with the basic arguements using my own research, however I would run the arguements through a respected scholar and have him paid as a consultant.




Agreed, but our intelligence agencies are the worst, and the muslim communities are tight knit.


That would be a problem. You would need to find a high ranking intelligence officer with some talent and some vision within the the intelligence agencies who is able to develop a group of informants.
Some may be recruited from the ranks of Muslim apostates who could easily pass for any other worshipper at a radical masjid.
They however should not have knowledge of the full program as they tend to be the most rabidly anti-Muslim from my experiences with apostates. They would probably try to sabotage the program.



Liberal Media, Use our own laws against us. This is their main mode of operation.

True, but media follows $$$$. Media rarely is a problem if you know what motivates them. Use them correctly and they can be your best friend. The laws can't be changed and probably don't need to be for now. Yes I know they are a problem, but that comes later once relations are improved and the climate is right to equalize the law for all.




How are Salafi's weakest theological. I know Indian High Court Judges who are Salafist. This is not easy. The situation is grim and intertwined.


That high court judge is not a very good Salafi if he administers the secular laws. lol They are weakest when it comes to such issues as Jihad where they support Muslims who openly kill fellow Muslims and civilian non-Muslims in horrific ways. Often they will justify killing other Muslims by delcarling Tafir on them without knowing how serious such a declaration is in Islam and how rarely it was used. Also such issues as Taqqiyah are also easily dealt with when you look at how that concept was used over the centuries by scholars in which it was generally applied on a personal level when one's family was threatened and they had to hide their faith or in warfare between nation states. It was never meant to be applied in the sense that Muslims could lie to any non-Muslim about anything. Sadly that's how its often interpreted today. I could go on and on, but I have lots of research I can dig up to back all that stuff up. But my main point is that it is possible to give very strong theological arguements against them.




The problem is those Islamic Scholars will be killed or thrown out first.


Ah...here is the beauty of such programs. If they are convert nobody will know the specific scholars as the arguements will be backed up by respected scholars in Islamic history who are long dead. The living scholars are only needed as researchers and experts to double check the arguements and messages being produced. If violence is expected even the publications of the propaganda can be done at a secret printing location through ghost Islamic organizations that only have websites but no physical address. Speakers do not need to show their face. Images of pious Indian Muslim saints and Islamic heroes like Saladin can be shown or with just verses from the Qu'ran shown. The speaker must also have a good strong voice with a sound of authority and be able to ****ounce Arabic words clearly and correctly. The voice can also be altered digitally to sound a bit lower without sounding unnatural.





Most of the people here are uneducated, A Urban-centric marketing agency can only do so much.


Now that is a serious issue. This is where an anthropologist or sociologist with years of experience working within poor Indian Muslim communities may be of great help if any exist. Any such program would really need someone who is tune with these communities and understands their day to day experience. That way the marketing can be custom tailored to fit that target audience based upon that intimate knowledge.



I am always ready to learn, not that I am in a position to do anything.

Well I'm not expecting you to carry out these programs, but only suggesting that they can be done. It only requires individuals with a vision of what needs to be done and who are passionate for peace, equality, tolerance, and Indian unity. It also requires tremendous patience, creativity, and the ability to try and see through the eyes of those who consider you their enemy.
The creativity aspect is important because such a program must be extremely flexible and be able to make rapid shifts in strategies.
The problem with government organizations is that they are slow to change and adapt. In my research I am creating an organizational structure based off various business organizational systems that can rapidly change in order to adapt to changing political realities that can shift rapidly due to events and crisis.

Right now I'm looking into getting private companies contracted to the US government to possibly help me develop such an organization. The US military is beginning to do such things, however they are still slow and suffer from constant rotations of personnel and leadership which often ends successful programs.

If I am successful such a company would likely branch out to do contract work for other nations or to at least work as consultants for other nations in developing these alternative strategies of counter-terrorism.
So right now I'm just working on attracting the funding from either private or government sources.

Wigon

[crayola]

why do muslims deman halal meat while living in west?

mistakes they are making by allowing muslims to live in "free" world!

CF made sure I got halal food.....and I didn't demand it, i requested it, and they were more than happy to provide it, just as i was happy to commit my time training and serving with the CF....so, it's a give and take situation.

I would argue that most muslims living in other countries are trying to make a living, not a killing.....as citizens, immigrants and workers, they contribute to the country's economy, no doubt....again, it's sybmiotic.

[wigon]

CF made sure I got halal food.....and I didn't demand it, i requested it, and they were more than happy to provide it, just as i was happy to commit my time training and serving with the CF....so, it's a give and take situation.

I would argue that most muslims living in other countries are trying to make a living, not a killing.....as citizens, immigrants and workers, they contribute to the country's economy, no doubt....again, it's sybmiotic.


Thank you for representing moderate Muslims who know the difference between true jihad and blatantly political terrorism that undermines Islam in the name of religion.
By the way, I try to heat Helal/Kosher food simply becase generally it is organic and/or range fed and tastes MUCH better then regular factory farmed meats.
The US Army even makes vegan MRE's for vegitarians and for Muslim and Jewish soldiers who object to standard MRE's.
Overally they taste really good. When I was in the Army, I often requested the vegitarian MRE's just because they tended to taste better and be healthier.

However with that said, I must point out, that their are more humane ways of killing animals today IF they practiced correctly. The compressed air-powered cattle rod to the base of the cow's skull for example is very efficient. Unfortunately regulations at slaughter houses are often not well enforced so often cows and other large animals are slaughtered before they are dead. Also the blood is always drained from slaughtered animals. If it is not, the blood congeals and spoils the meat. Any hunter knows this, as it is traditional in America to drain the blood of a deer (or other wild game) by cutting its juglar vein and hanging it from a tree by its rear legs.
So basically, the methods of more humanely killing an animal today for food were not available until recently in history. That part is not un-Islamic. Likewise everyone drains the blood. So that part is not un-Islamic. What is un-Islamic is allowing other animals to see other animals being slaughtered and keeping them confined to tiny spaces their entire lives while they are force-fed corn mash and anti-biotics until they are fat enough for slaughtering. That is not just un-Islamic but is bad for human health (but good for industrial meat production revenues) $$$$$$.

So basically both Jewish and Muslim dietary laws have something important to offer to the rest of humanity. (Jewish dietary laws are more strict by the way).

:)

Wigon

[sikh_warrior]

you guys had your experiences of living with muslims and i had mine.....you enjoy your ways. simple!

[Zathras]

Yeah im just raging with anger, cant wait to go to my corner shop pick up some explosives and bomb something, erm I dont know anything just bomb bomb bomb...

:roll:

[Zathras]

Actually looking at the topic its quite ironic that the ones who are really angry here are the non muslim ones, ie look at sikh warrior he's foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog. behave boy, they mite mistake u for a mooslim in some places with that turban and ur anger. p-)

[Zathras]

Wigon,

Regardless, Muslims anywhere in the world look upto Saudia. As the holder of the twin holy cities. Unless and until the keepers of religion changes, the followers wont.

No we dont look upto Arabia, the government is a dictatorship propped up by american petrodollars, the only thing they care about is themselves. As for the people many of them are ignorant and some blatantly racist.

[Mastermind]

It is that word, "most" that kind of gives me the creeps about them...considering how many we have among us. Even if 99% are the "good kind" that leaves thousands that are the "bad kind"....dosen't it?

[California Joe]

All I know is, I'm shooting every sonofabitch that shows up on my property for a jihad.

wigster, I think the whole point is that the "moderate" muslims don't say a f*cking thing because if they did, some asshole would cut their heads off or kill their kids.

[Mastermind]

^^Not quite as diplomatic as I would have put it...but my sentiments, exactly. Thanks Joe.

[Hollis]

you guys had your experiences of living with muslims and i had mine.....you enjoy your ways. simple!


Your condescending attitude will not help you remain on this forum.

I am not going to try say I know anything about you or that my experiences are better than yours. Seems you are making that mistake about some of the members here. I would suggest curing your rectal cranial inversion, there are members here that have not spent their complete existence living way in the back waters of bayou living off of frogs and fighting off crocks. Some of us actually have color TVs and eat TV diners, so there!!

[Mastermind]

Uh...Hollis? I eat frogs.....Haven't fought off crocks lately, though...but have played some slot machines that were pretty gnarly.

[Ali Baba]

Jesus, Me Playing Arma For the Last week made me miss a @#!$load.

Hey Wigon :hug:Lol.

Either Way, I just had time to read 7 Pages, ill continue the rest after i come home and after I eat Ilfitar. Ill try to Give you a Canadian-Egyptian Muslim whos joining the CF Opinion p-).

[Mastermind]

Then God Bless ya Motaal...MM

[Hollis]

Uh...Hollis? I eat frogs.....Haven't fought off crocks lately, though...but have played some slot machines that were pretty gnarly.

That works, those slot tend to be hungrier than crocks.


It was in response to several posts of his in several threads.