Crew on King Henry VIII's ship sunk in 1545 didn't understand orders: B.C. study

[Fade]

Crew on King Henry VIII's ship sunk in 1545 didn't understand orders: B.C. study
By THE CANADIAN PRESS

VANCOUVER - New forensic evidence uncovered by a B.C. criminologist suggests the crew aboard King Henry VIII's favourite warship sank in 1545 because the mostly Spanish crew didn't understand the captain's orders.

Lynne Bell, an associate professor at Simon Fraser University, says she examined teeth from a sample of human remains at a museum in England to determine the dietary habits of those who died aboard the "Mary Rose."

Bell says she was shocked when her research revealed the mariners and soldiers who'd perished were not from Britain, as always believed, but from a more southern part of Europe.

Story continued....
(http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/08/01/6332926-cp.html)

[superbuzzmetal]

Well it's not that surprising, being a mercenary is one of the oldest professions in the world, lot's of people have the wrong idea that it's a recent thing.
Still contracting parts of crew that don't speak the captain's language might be not such a bright idea, good communication is one of the most important assets on a ships crew.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I've got an extensive book on maritime archeology and the causes of the vessel sinking were due to gunports being opened whilst sailing in a cross wind. Because vessels at the time had extensive upperworks, on a narrow beam they were quite top heavy and had a tendency to roll very badly.

When sailing in a cross wind or tacking the wind picks up the sales and causes the ship to list to one side. Open gun ports cause water to rush in flooding the vessel and causing it to capsize and sink.

The same fate caused the Vasa to sink. Again extremely narrow hull, made worse by Swedish designs which favoured a shallow draft. Gun ports are open, ship gets caught in a cross wind and by by the Vasa .

Peter Throckmornton was the author of this book and these causes are quite common. It's one of the reasons when you see a yacht race on tv and all the crew a sitting to one side. And a problem that still effects massive bulk carriers (Pasha Bulka)

Even now the most massive bulk carriers, ocean liners and aircraft carriers will always avoid strong cross winds.

I highly doubt based on what I have read that a language barrier would have caused the Mary Rose to sink. A few points.

1. Spain was the foremost naval power of the time. in the Atlantic and as such Spanish crews would have been readily available for hire to the highest bidder.

2. Whilst the Royal Navy predates Henry the VIII and the Mary Rose the RN was pretty much a laughing stock at the time. It would be many decades before the Royal Navy could boast experienced seafarers.

[el borracho]

I agree with Min, if these Spaniards were veteran sailors they'd know how to perform routine procedures like that. I suspect either the French actually did take down the ship with cannon, or the vessel was maneuvering wildly during battle and pitched over unexpectedly. I don't think it was as simple as a miscommunicated order. Also, it's highly likely that at least one of the 600 crewmen could speak English. If there was no way to communicate, the ship wouldn't have made it very far out of port in the first place.

She even says here:


She said her research has helped her revise her take on medieval Europe, realizing it was a place where people didn't just stay in their own countries and war with one another.

"They were involved in a lot of moving around and there was trade and particular nationalities were fighting as mercenaries for different countries," she said.

If that was the case, then they probably spoke several languages as well.

[oldsoak]

Had they been Portuguese ( Englands oldest European ally ) I'd have found it easier to beleive.
Mind you, the Spanish and the French were often fighting each other in that era, so hiring Spanish sailors to fight the French may not have been suprising - the Spanish might have even thought it a good thing to embarass their main rival in Europe.

[AROUETLJ]

Story continued....
(http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/08/01/6332926-cp.html)

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, talk about circumstantial evidence and joined-up theories. What a crankpot. Did it ever cross this cretin's pea-sized brain that an international crew could have understood English? Or that the English could speak Spanish? Or that there was such a thing as an international "sailor's language"? Why, it's even got a Spanish name: sabir.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, talk about circumstantial evidence and joined-up theories. What a crankpot. Did it ever cross this cretin's pea-sized brain that an international crew could have understood English? Or that the English could speak Spanish? Or that there was such a thing as an international "sailor's language"? Why, it's even got a Spanish name: sabir.

Meh it's just typical yankee bull**** thinking they can explain everything with science and DNA ****ing idiots.

I repeat the Mary Rose was lost due to sailing in a cross wind with it's gun ports open as was the Vasa in Sweden and last year something similar caused the Pasha Bulka to run aground in Newcastle.

Any mariner will tell you sailing in a cross wind no matter what boat your in is a recipe for disaster.

I also highly doubt that the English flagship under the watchful eye of the Monarch would have been sailed by inexperienced Spanish guys. As I said Spain was the foremost naval power at the time, controlled the Atlantic, practically controlled the Med and was the largest European nation at the time would have had more then enough mariners to be used as mercenaries.

[SBL]

I know the Spanish-speaking crew at MacDonalds doesn't understand a lot of orders, either.

[Mastermind]

I have also wondered about "shouted orders" on any ship. It has been my experience and also knowledge based on study that sailors used other means of communications, especially in bad weather...hand signals and horns. Bugle calls were used extensivly on larger vesels since way back to the days of Rome. Wind in the ear will simply not allow you to hear things clearly and so amplified sounding systems (bugles and bells) and hand signals were quite common for just about every coordinated ship crew task .

Besides, it would hardly matter if you were Spanish speaking on an English speaking vessel...the common commands are easy to learn, and practically universal. Also, if the Spaniards of the article were really the experienced seafarers the article suggests, they would have known by their own experience what was needed for just about any maneuvering event.

Only neophyte sailors would have stood idly by while their ship was in need of
trimming.

A language barrier could have caused some slightly amusing moments, I am sure. But, the best of the Kings Navy, almost surely was not sent out without some pretty detailed group coordination drills at the dock. To sail a large complex vessel to sea without proper team selection and training would have been known even then to be suicide.

I say the vessel sank in a twist of freakish weather mixed with poor judgement on the part of the commanding officer.

[wasser]

Ms Bell seems to be making a bit of a stretch in this article. Sounds like she's hyping it up to sell the story and the show. :p


Meh it's just typical yankee bull**** thinking they can explain everything with science and DNA ****ing idiots.

Sir, are you taking a shot at Americans? If you are then you should note that America has yet to complete it's annexation of Canada and Great Britain. ;)

[big_les]

So one person has worked out that medieval European countries weren't isolated from each other. What does she want, a medal?

I agree it's a hell of a reach to blame the sinking on a language barrier that may or may not have existed, and may or may not have had a bearing on matters of routine seamanship. Why not just say "we've found out that the crew were from Spain - isn't it cool?". Isn't that enough? Why push beyond the evidence?

You might as well say - well, we found rat bones amongst the timbers - the sinking must have been caused by sailors tripping over rats.

[AROUETLJ]

So one person has worked out that medieval European countries weren't isolated from each other. What does she want, a medal?

I agree it's a hell of a reach to blame the sinking on a language barrier that may or may not have existed, and may or may not have had a bearing on matters of routine seamanship. Why not just say "we've found out that the crew were from Spain - isn't it cool?". Isn't that enough? Why push beyond the evidence?

You might as well say - well, we found rat bones amongst the timbers - the sinking must have been caused by sailors tripping over rats.

I like your style, Big Les. I think our "scientist" has watched one too many episodes of Fawlty Towers.

[Andy S]

Being shot by the french during battle?

The Mary Rose went down 200m from Portsmouth harbour mouth!

The local theory was the crew all went to the port side to wave to the king and it went over in the wind.