DHS: We can seize laptops for an indefinite period

[Evil Scientist]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10004646-38.html (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10004646-38.html)
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has concocted a remarka
ble new policy: It reserves the right to seize for an indefinite period of time laptops taken across the border.
A pair of DHS policies from last month say that customs agents can routinely--as a matter of course--seize, make copies of, and "analyze the information transported by any individual attempting to enter, re-enter, depart, pass through, or reside in the United States." (See policy No. 1 (http://www.cdt.org/security/20080716_CBP%20Search%20Policy.pdf) and No. 2 (http://www.cdt.org/security/20080716_ICE%20Search%20Policy.pdf).)
DHS claims the border search of electronic information is useful to detect terrorists, drug smugglers, and people violating "copyright or trademark laws." (Readers: Are you sure your iPod and laptop have absolutely no illicitly downloaded songs? You might be guilty of a felony (http://news.cnet.com/2010-1071-982121.html).) ..........


Yeah I think bussiness people are gonna be real glad when DHS retains their laptop. I'm quite sure my company doesn't like it when sensitive information is copied and then lost ( or sold) by some goverment agency.

Also the hollywood/music corp how did they get DHS to look for mp3'/dvds.
I know you can make money with illegal copies, but surely in this day and age, counterfeit dvd isn't the biggest moneymaker for AlQ et al.

[Paddy51]

You might find this of interest:


Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause

A controversial customs practice creates a legal backlash

By Alex Kingsbury (http://www.usnews.com/Topics/tag/Author/a/alex_kingsbury/index.html)
Posted June 24, 2008


Returning from a vacation to Germany in February, freelance journalist Bill Hogan was selected for additional screening by customs officials at Dulles International Airport outside Washington. Agents searched his luggage, he said, "then they told me that they were impounding my laptop."


Shaken by the encounter, Hogan examined his bags and found the agents had also inspected the memory card from his camera. "It was fortunate that I didn't use [the laptop] for work," he said, "or I would have had to call up all my sources and tell them that the government had just seized their information." When customs offered to return the computer nearly two weeks later, Hogan had it shipped to his lawyer.


More... (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/06/24/seizing-laptops-and-cameras-without-cause.html)

[WarDancer]

You can have my laptop when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!

[gayarabianman]

Jesus christ.
Imagine in a few years around the globe?
Nobody will be able to do a single thing, It's getting beyond the point all the "surveillance" madness.

[Macs.]

Oh yeah, terrorist and drug smugglers are really ****ed now. In the past they used laptops to transfer their computer data. But what now ? It's not like there is somekind of global net where they could share their data.

Searching for MP3's and copyright material in the name of FREEDOM, what a ****ing joke.

All hail the mighty Dollar.

[Straker]

It is becoming a real issue in terms of commercial espionage for some of the bigger companies (not saying that is what its for but once somebody has physical access to the hardware it becomes a moot point.)

By all accounts a lot of executives in large companies are no longer taking any form of storage device with them (or travelling with "clean" ones which are only used for low level work).

Bit sad really, I can imagine it getting to the point that people routinely wipe their laptops etc. on the flight over.

[Thor]

Don't know if you have heard about this, most likely you haven't. Same thing happening in EU and pretty much everywhere else. The difference is that things here are lousy to begin with, which makes it even worse. What is just as scary is that everything is being worked out in the shadows and behind closed doors. No media reports, nothing.

Oh, and let's not forget the whole fingerprinting deal that sure enough is going to be implemented when travelling in and out of EU.

On the other hand I don't think people are as inclined to obey EU regulations.


The Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) is a proposed plurilateral trade agreement that would impose strict enforcement of intellectual property rights related to Internet activity and trade in information-based goods. The agreement is being secretly negotiated by the governments of the United States, the European Commission, Japan, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, and Mexico.[1][2] If adopted at the 34th G8 summit in July 2008, the treaty would establish an international coalition against copyright infringement, imposing strong, top-down enforcement of copyright laws in developed nations. The proposed agreement would allow border officials to search laptops, MP3 players, and cellular phones for copyright-infringing content. It would also impose new cooperation requirements upon Internet service providers (ISPs), including perfunctory disclosure of customer information, and restrict the use of online privacy tools. The proposal specifies a plan to encourage developing nations to accept the legal regime, as well.

The European Commission, the Office of the United States Trade Representative, the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and other government agencies have acknowledged participating in ACTA negotiations, but they have refused to release drafts of the treaty or to discuss specific terms under discussion in the negotiations. Public interest advocates in Canada filed an access to information request but received only a document stating the title of the agreement, with everything else blacked out.[2] On May 22, 2008, a discussion paper about the proposed agreement was uploaded to Wikileaks, and newspaper reports about the secret negotiations quickly followed.[3][4][2][5]

ACTA is part of a broader "forum shifting" strategy employed by the trade representatives of the U.S., E.C., Japan, and other supporters of rigid intellectual property enforcement: similar terms and provisions currently appear in the World Customs Organization draft SECURE treaty.[6]

..............

Border searches

Newspaper reports indicate that the proposed agreement would empower security officials at airports and other international borders to conduct random ex officio searches of laptops, MP3 players, and cellular phones for illegally downloaded or "ripped" music and movies. Travelers with infringing content would be subject to a fine and may have their devices confiscated or destroyed.[2][5]

Some countries already conduct border searches of electronic devices without probable cause. In July 2008, the United States Department of Homeland Security disclosed that its border search policies allow U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents to conduct random searches of electronic devices for "information concerning terrorism, narcotics smuggling, and other national security matters; alien admissibility; contraband including child ****ography, monetary instruments, and information in violation of copyright or trademark laws; and evidence of embargo violations or other import or export control laws."[7][8] Senator Russell Feingold called the policies "truly alarming" and proposed to introduce legislation to require reasonable suspicion of illegality and to prohibit racial profiling.[7] The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has previously upheld the constitutionality of laptop searches without reasonable suspicion at border crossings.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement

[Pille1234]

By all accounts a lot of executives in large companies are no longer taking any form of storage device with them (or travelling with "clean" ones which are only used for low level work).

Since a few month this is standard procedure at my company. Whoever travels to the US has to hand over his notebook to the IT department for cleaning first. All company data is available only through network log-on. Has created quite a few problems in the past when sitting at a customer's meeting room and not being able to connect to your company network due to firewall- /network issues.

[NYCDweller]

Oh yeah, terrorist and drug smugglers are really ****ed now. In the past they used laptops to transfer their computer data. But what now ? It's not like there is somekind of global net where they could share their data.

Searching for MP3's and copyright material in the name of FREEDOM, what a ****ing joke.

All hail the mighty Dollar.

Totally ridiculous and outrageous, I agree. And don't worry soon you'll be entering a government watched and sponsored Internet, built by some corporation in order to prevent terrorism.

[gaijinsamurai]

Hasn't this been happening for a while? When my wife and I were en route from Japan to Guatemala in 2005, we had to change planes in Houston, which meant going through US customs/Immigration (even though we weren't even leaving the terminal). There was a loud-mouthed whitetrash, near-minimum wage-earning TSA thug yelling at all the travellers, bragging about all the confiscated laptops in his collection. It was a big change from the courtesy we were shown by Japanese security personnel (even with my replica MP40 ad katana/wakaizashi set i my checked luggage!)

[Son of Damian]

The 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

If this mentality of well if you ain't got nothing to hide bullsh*t, and more policies such as this one are started don't be surprised when the biggest terror threat isn't from foreign extremists but Americans seeking to restore the liberties this nation was founded on!!!

[Macs.]

Hasn't this been happening for a while? When my wife and I were en route from Japan to Guatemala in 2005, we had to change planes in Houston, which meant going through US customs/Immigration (even though we weren't even leaving the terminal). There was a loud-mouthed whitetrash, near-minimum wage-earning TSA thug yelling at all the travellers, bragging about all the confiscated laptops in his collection. It was a big change from the courtesy we were shown by Japanese security personnel (even with my replica MP40 ad katana/wakaizashi set i my checked luggage!)

I've been at a few airports around the world, and Airport "Security" personnel is sometimes made up of the worst possible Wannabe-STASI people, you really gotta wonder where they find these people. The worst were people from some kind of security sub-contractor who puts everyone who can write 5 words into a uniform and gives them authority they never in their life felt before.

[gaijinsamurai]

^ Guatemala is like that, as far as being incompetent morons. Cuba is like that, for being full of themselves and loving their authority.

[BloodyTalon]

Oh yeah, terrorist and drug smugglers are really ****ed now. In the past they used laptops to transfer their computer data. But what now ? It's not like there is somekind of global net where they could share their data.

Searching for MP3's and copyright material in the name of FREEDOM, what a ****ing joke.

All hail the mighty Dollar.
x2. I can totally imagine some quota-mad, egotistical TSA douche taking my laptop in case, you know, i have plans to blow up the Sears Tower in my word folder with my term papers, and then happening to "stumble upon" some ISOs and MP3s. My God, whatever happened to the 4th Amendment?

[Laconian]

The 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

If this mentality of well if you ain't got nothing to hide bullsh*t, and more policies such as this one are started don't be surprised when the biggest terror threat isn't from foreign extremists but Americans seeking to restore the liberties this nation was founded on!!!

There is a HUGE difference legally, and from a constitutional standpoint, when it comes to expectations of privacy for things (papers, residences, persons, conveyances, etc.) already in the US versus things being brought into the US from abroad (or returning to the US). It may seem more intrusive (and it is), but that in no way implies these seizures are illegal or unconstitutional. Customs has always had a great deal of leeway on what cleared and what didn't.

[Power_serj]

I bet that if they tried to actually apply this law, the DHS will laugh it off when explaining it to the Supreme Court as a misunderstanding.

IIRC the Supreme Court already ruled on a case saying with slavery (where slaves were considered property at the time) that a slave could not be free if moved to another state because the property still belongs to the owner. The Supreme Court ruling can be used as a precedent, that regardless if it is moved elsewhere, the object (the laptop in this case) still belongs to the owner.

[gaijinsamurai]

Good point, Laconian.

I guess my major bitch is the fact that I, and other travellers, get treated with quite a lack of respect when going through airport security, by idiots who are often much lower on the foodchain than ourselves.
Well, I guess they can enjoy their power while they have it. It will probably be the high point of their lives, and they can tell their grandkids about the time they made a Marine honor guard strip down to their skivvies or a Microsoft executive take off his Rolex, Italian loafers, and Christian Dior shirt, during the glory days, before they got fired for getting caught stealing or failing a urinalysis.

[Laconian]

I admit that I am very ignorant of security procedures and dealing with TSA contractors in airports because I bypass that whole scene.

serj, yes your property is still your property is still your property traveling interstate, international it is still yours but it must meet customs standards for import/export, or departure/re-entry that are way, way different than search/seizure standards in the US.

[Templar@Large]

Oh yeah, terrorist and drug smugglers are really ****ed now. In the past they used laptops to transfer their computer data. But what now ? It's not like there is somekind of global net where they could share their data.

Searching for MP3's and copyright material in the name of FREEDOM, what a ****ing joke.

All hail the mighty Dollar.

Ya gotta love the stupity of it .........Laptops today ! Tampons tommorrow !

[Hispeed1]

What a coincidence-something like that happened to me, but on the way into fruitc@g3 Canada. So as I flew into Manitoba from the US, Canadian customs looked thorough my stuff and saw my laptop. The officer in charge asked for me to turn it on and to log in. He sat there and got on my laptop, looking through my files, etc. I didn't think Canadian customs could do that or am I wrong? Maybe they have the right to do that now? Can Canadian members enlighten with the laws there?

[Thor]

In the future I will definitely travel with a clean drive, and have whatever I need encrypted, and zipped down on blueray disks and just have it all sent by regular mail to wherever I'm going. Or simply use a server and download it when I get there.

Another option is encrypted and hidden partitions with an extra OS for show. I'm not so sure I wan't to take that risk though since there isn't really a solution based on true steganography around. Even though it's perfectly legal it might make you a suspect if discovered, and going through cavity searches etc. doesn't sound tempting.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Conveniently have a flat battery and forget a power cord (buy a new one)

[Kilgor]

I posted on this a while ago.

The complete bastardry of the MPAA and RIAA

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=135383

[Russian_dude]

The worst is that it's going to do nothing to the real terrorists and criminals who will find easy ways around this. Only the common people will suffer.

[Evil Scientist]

Conveniently have a flat battery and forget a power cord (buy a new one)



Which will make them seize it for sure.

[frenchy]

This government is becoming mad.:|

[Sand Man]

Oh yeah, terrorist and drug smugglers are really ****ed now. In the past they used laptops to transfer their computer data. But what now ? It's not like there is somekind of global net where they could share their data.

Searching for MP3's and copyright material in the name of FREEDOM, what a ****ing joke.

All hail the mighty Dollar.

You just made the list, buddy. p-)

[z0rr0101]

Can anybody here explain how are they supposed to prove that MP3s on my Ipod are illegal. Does burden of prof lays on my me and I am guilty until proven otherwise. Interesting concept if you ask me?

[hank]

I bet that if they tried to actually apply this law, the DHS will laugh it off when explaining it to the Supreme Court as a misunderstanding.

IIRC the Supreme Court already ruled on a case saying with slavery (where slaves were considered property at the time) that a slave could not be free if moved to another state because the property still belongs to the owner. The Supreme Court ruling can be used as a precedent, that regardless if it is moved elsewhere, the object (the laptop in this case) still belongs to the owner.

Jesus Christ you are simple, aren't you. Choke yourself and promise never to read or mention a SCOTUS case again. And get that slave out of your can right now.

hank

[TallGuy]

Good point, Laconian.

I guess my major bitch is the fact that I, and other travellers, get treated with quite a lack of respect when going through airport security, by idiots who are often much lower on the foodchain than ourselves.
Well, I guess they can enjoy their power while they have it. It will probably be the high point of their lives, and they can tell their grandkids about the time they made a Marine honor guard strip down to their skivvies or a Microsoft executive take off his Rolex, Italian loafers, and Christian Dior shirt, during the glory days, before they got fired for getting caught stealing or failing a urinalysis.
They're just doing their jobs. It doesn't matter if it's a Marine Honor guard or an old lady with a walker, everybody is treated equal, well, almost. I've had to do body searches on random people. It wasn't because I was on a power trip, it was because I was following procedure. Almost every week or two there some new regulations e.g. liquids in carry-on luggage etc. Most of us thought it was stupid but rules are rules.

[Templar@Large]

In the future I will definitely travel with a clean drive, and have whatever I need encrypted, and zipped down on blueray disks and just have it all sent by regular mail to wherever I'm going. Or simply use a server and download it when I get there.

Another option is encrypted and hidden partitions with an extra OS for show. I'm not so sure I wan't to take that risk though since there isn't really a solution based on true steganography around. Even though it's perfectly legal it might make you a suspect if discovered, and going through cavity searches etc. doesn't sound tempting.

Humm ! Seems you might be spending sometime to get to know the Boys at DHS LoL .....rofl

[hank]

Tallguy, ever flown to/from LaGuardia? Before you make any reps about "just doing their job" you might want to experience the love from the folks at La Guardia. And Hartsfield Jackson here in the ATL is not great either I might add. Its better than MYLG because of the volume but the people are rude and clueless.

Lac - I agree with you that the 4th's protections are not as stringent when you are getting back in the country, but IIRC they still must either choose you randomly or have a particularized suspicion to do things like 1) detain/question you longer than momentarily or 2) keep your stuff. Am I all wet on that? I don't think choosing to keep all laptops would pass muster but I could be wrong. This kind of thing will create a stir and THS will stop doing it for that reason probably.

hank

[Paddy51]

They're just doing their jobs. It doesn't matter if it's a Marine Honor guard or an old lady with a walker, everybody is treated equal, well, almost. I've had to do body searches on random people. It wasn't because I was on a power trip, it was because I was following procedure. Almost every week or two there some new regulations e.g. liquids in carry-on luggage etc. Most of us thought it was stupid but rules are rules.

I travel a lot and believe me I don't mind the searches and the checks. To me it is just part of staying safe in the world we live in. However, taking my laptop off me for no good reason is quite another. I don't mind showing that my computer is a computer and booting it up but taking it away begins to smack of invasion of privacy and frankly industrial espionage of some kind.

[khukuri]

I travel a lot and believe me I don't mind the searches and the checks. To me it is just part of staying safe in the world we live in. However, taking my laptop off me for no good reason is quite another. I don't mind showing that my computer is a computer and booting it up but taking it away begins to smack of invasion of privacy and frankly industrial espionage of some kind.

Exactly I travel very often but this is getting stupid.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

What gets me is that approached business travelers are taking is exactly the same type of approach terrorists will take anyway and as we all know major criminal/terrorists organisations do not like to have any paper trail either through traditional and or electronic means.

We are losing our freedoms so we can live in a free society. ****ing crazy.

Another thing to which people seem to forget a lot. This might irk some people to.

The governments that are introducing these measures are also the ones that are directly and indirectly the cause of Islamic extremism. Conservative governments are the ones that keep supporting corrupt, intolerant and generally autocratic governments to keep the oil flowing. These governments who don't flinch for a second when they stone a women to death for adultery are a product of the Wests desire to maintain control.

The extremists see the Wests support of these regimes as the cause of having no say in government, no democracy, no freedoms, no economic prospects and no education.

Just maybe why don't we look at measures where we the West instead of cramping down on our own freedoms to make us safe look at the above causes why extremists appear in the first place. It's exactly the same reasons that lead to the rise of facism and communism.

We need to be exerting pressure on Saudi Arabia, Syria, Israel, Pakistan, Iran and the other Arab states to ensure the economic wealth that is flowing into the region is shared by all not just the select few in power.

With economic prosperity comes, education as people are not as pressured to leave school early, with prosperity comes consumerism which leads to a happy society.

We keep these repressive governments in power to keep our energy sources open. Thats fine and all. But what about if by making the populations of these nations enjoy the same economic prosperity? A happy population, an employed population is not a population that is going to resort to terrorism against the people they think are responsible for their poverty and poor economic and cultural prosperity.

We are simply going about it the wrong way. Arabs are historically a very business orientated people. A people that have historically provided some of the worlds most renowned thinkers, artists and significant people in the world. We need to tap into this tradition, improve their living standards, and foster democracy and freedom for us to enjoy the freedoms we in the West have always enjoyed.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

In a nutshell we in the West have already lost and are being extremely hypocritical about it. We rant and rave about freedom and democracy but it is we the west that support some of the most corrupt and intolerant regimes on Earth.

[Briggs]

I can understand that there is some control but this is getting out of hand. Under no circumstances will I allow anyone to look into my computer files without my authorization and certainly no DHS or any AP Security. Can't clean what I need to show, I'll have to find another way or simply not travel to the US. What's next automatic cavity searches just in case?!

[sct1886]

You can have my laptop when you pry it from my cold dead fingers!
They hire people with little or no hope of finding a real job in the real world. Hence they will be happy to pry it from your cold dead fingers. I attended a airport security job fair with my wife, we walked out. They were predominately little better than pond scum, useful idiots with a badge.

[Thor]

Humm ! Seems you might be spending sometime to get to know the Boys at DHS LoL .....rofl
Huh? My intention (unlike others) was and is to comply with everything and not try to hide anything at airports. It's a place where you want to avoid even the slightest form of deviation from the norm.

For honesty's sake I must say that I have always been treated very respectfully at every airport around the world that I have visited. I have found a similarity pattern in regards to "clubbing". Many people have stories to tell about bouncers et al who threw them out, beat them up, didn't let them in, looked at them the wrong way etc. I have never had any trouble, and I have no answer to why that is.

All this however does not negate a person's right to protect his privacy within the limits of the law, and nor should a person's will to do so serve as a ground for suspicion.

[duhblow7]

This is an example of the degradation of rights for nothing. Bad part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety. What is even worse is that if you try to use encryption to maintain a level of privacy and security, that will just mean they'll keep it longer while they try to crack it.

Honestly, I'm more afraid of my own government than I am of Al-Qaeda.

[BonesBrigade]

This is an example of the degradation of rights for nothing. Bad part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety. What is even worse is that if you try to use encryption to maintain a level of privacy and security, that will just mean they'll keep it longer while they try to crack it.

Honestly, I'm more afraid of my own government than I am of Al-Qaeda.

Frankly I feel the same way. If the U.S ever recovers from all the pure **** the government has done after 9/11 it will be a Miracle

[Firefly26]

What they need to do is take out this stupid politically correct "random" crap and do these searches for a reason. Base it on probable cause and prejudice. Otherwise, it is just an annoying pointless measure that is deprieved of its intended aim and effectivness. That said, I still say the gov't doesn't need all this access to do its job. Out of all the countries I have traveled to, the US is the most unpleasant to fly into already, and this crap hurts tourism and our economy.

[marktigger]

amazing what effect legislation can be turned to.

[Calanen]

What gets me is that approached business travelers are taking is exactly the same type of approach terrorists will take anyway and as we all know major criminal/terrorists organisations do not like to have any paper trail either through traditional and or electronic means.

Hmm...professionals always have a trail. You cant do business without paper, or emails of some kinds. Bigger the business, the bigger the paper trail. It is sometimes just well hidden..encrypted, encoded, water soluble paper, or sometimes just plain in the open.


We are losing our freedoms so we can live in a free society. ****ing crazy.

Its mostly for PR - to show the public they are doing something.


The governments that are introducing these measures are also the ones that are directly and indirectly the cause of Islamic extremism.

Really? So the current day governments were what prompted muslims to rampage into Spain and France during the Middle Ages? How prescient of them.

What causes islamic extremism is islam. Got nothing to do with what Western governments do, other than they are at the top of the list of infidels to slay because of their power.


Conservative governments are the ones that keep supporting corrupt, intolerant and generally autocratic governments to keep the oil flowing.

Well - Saudi Arabia to some degree this is correct. The preference of the US is to keep the strong man type governments in power rather than islamic fundamentalists - see say, Saddam before he fell out of power, the Baath party in Syria, Mubarek in Egypt.


These governments who don't flinch for a second when they stone a women to death for adultery are a product of the Wests desire to maintain control.

That's Islam - not really the government. If the government were to stop that sort of thing, the clerics would lead an uprising against the government. Musharaf is reasonably secular, but he walks a knife edge appeasing the fundies just enough.


The extremists see the Wests support of these regimes as the cause of having no say in government, no democracy, no freedoms, no economic prospects and no education.

Oh come on - that's just sillines. Democracy is infidel bs to them - there are two types of government in the Middle East -strong men with guns, and religious men with guns. Democracy is considered western idiocy. The majority of the people in those islamic countries (save Turkey) want sharia law, with no tolerance, no freedoms, and no democracy.


Just maybe why don't we look at measures where we the West instead of cramping down on our own freedoms to make us safe look at the above causes why extremists appear in the first place. It's exactly the same reasons that lead to the rise of facism and communism.

The 'extremists' appear because there is a long history of slay the unbelievers and jihad in islam. That will not change, no matter what new fangled appeasement policy the west develops. The only thing they understand in response is overwhelming force and eventual annihilation. Anything else is like trying to reform any extremist policy - wasted effort.


We need to be exerting pressure on Saudi Arabia, Syria, Israel, Pakistan, Iran and the other Arab states to ensure the economic wealth that is flowing into the region is shared by all not just the select few in power.

And how exactly are we going to do that? America knows that our friends the Saudis are pushing fundamentalist Islam all around the world, but it plays a game of the Emperors New Clothes by saying Islam is the religion of peace, to keep the oil flowing.


With economic prosperity comes, education as people are not as pressured to leave school early, with prosperity comes consumerism which leads to a happy society.

Rubbish. The people leading these jihadi movements are often well educated, and richer than you and I. There religion, or there interpretation of it, commands them to kill us. No matter how much money or education that is given to them, will not change that.


We keep these repressive governments in power to keep our energy sources open. Thats fine and all. But what about if by making the populations of these nations enjoy the same economic prosperity? A happy population, an employed population is not a population that is going to resort to terrorism against the people they think are responsible for their poverty and poor economic and cultural prosperity.

Yeah right. Plenty of people with money in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, supporting the jihadis. Its the philosophy of jihad, not poverty that makes these people lead attacks against us. What about all the so called home grown jihadis in France, Spain, UK? People who have grown up in the West and still want to kill us. What stays the same - Islam.


We are simply going about it the wrong way. Arabs are historically a very business orientated people. A people that have historically provided some of the worlds most renowned thinkers, artists and significant people in the world. We need to tap into this tradition, improve their living standards, and foster democracy and freedom for us to enjoy the freedoms we in the West have always enjoyed.

Too much kumbaya Min. We need to keep islam in islamic countries, and not elsewhere. And let anyone within the West know that there will be zero tolerance for political islam within the West. As well as continuing to find, fight, and crush all who would take up arms in the name of Islam. If we waiver in this to any extent - the West will be lost.

[Macs.]

With economic prosperity comes, education as people are not as pressured to leave school early, with prosperity comes consumerism which leads to a happy society.

We keep these repressive governments in power to keep our energy sources open. Thats fine and all. But what about if by making the populations of these nations enjoy the same economic prosperity? A happy population, an employed population is not a population that is going to resort to terrorism against the people they think are responsible for their poverty and poor economic and cultural prosperity.

If you look at some of the most prominent Terrorist you will notice that is has absolute nothing to do if they are well educated, poor educated, rich or poor.

Osama Bin Laden himself comes from a family that literally has Billions, and he himself is or atleast was a Millionair. Mohammed Atta came from a well eduacted and wealthy family. The list continues.

[deagle]

i tink thats bs. if they inconvenience you for "an indefinite period", i'd ask for compensation, like $1000 per day. maybe they'll take 1 day turnaround for their "inspections" or you get alot of money. or you can sue. you're the owner, so its your right to your property.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

@ Calanen and Macs

I agree that it's the wealthy that do lead these organisations, but it's generally the poor who make up the numbers. They use this poverty as a tool to recruit members.

Thats the point I'm making.

[seraosha]

@ Calanen and Macs

I agree that it's the wealthy that do lead these organisations, but it's generally the poor who make up the numbers. They use this poverty as a tool to recruit members.

Thats the point I'm making.

You would think that thats the case, but it's just not what's going on Min.
But thats off topic...as for laptops and additional security, you folks have no idea...I've been wanded, swabbed, and taken aside the last 19 times in a row when I've gone to the airport.

Walking an unaccompanied minor to the gate, and then picking her up...FTW.

[NicNZ]

Thankfully, new air routes through Hong Kong are opening up from Australia and New Zealand so that those of us in those regions can more easily avoid travelling through the US, which is fast changing from being the main transit route to Europe to "the one to avoid unless you absolutely must go through it".

This new policy pertaining the laptops is only the latest in a long string of policy changes that have made travelling through the US a nightmare for business persons and holidaymakers alike. Long and arbitrary detentions, quasi-interrogation interviews in back room offices, and drawn-out background checks are becoming more and more widely reported too, and these are the experiences of white people dressed in business atire, on their way through the US, not even seeking to leave the airport!