Mechanics of a living bomb

[Sayeret]

http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/parade.jpg

Hamas' suicide bombers during a demonstration in Gaza

PREPARATION OF A SUICIDE BOMBER

Contrary to popular opinion claiming that for suicide terrorist act just one terrorist is enough, there are several people involved in the process of preparing the human bomb for explosion. Usually, they make up a team for serial production of living bombs.

First of all, there is a Recruiter that finds and selects suitable candidates for journey to "paradise".

In the nineties, when religious terrorist organizations, such as the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, were the primary sources for suicide bombers, the main pool of future suicide-bombers was a mosque, and a recruiter was a person that was connected to that mosque in one way or another. Now, when the secular terrorist organizations, such as Arafat's FATAH/Tanzim or People's Front for Liberation of Palestine, employ suicide bombers too, the recruitment can take place anywhere, from hospitals or restaurants to schools and even kindergartens - the youngest suicide bomber arrested by Israeli security services is just 13 years old, the youngest who blew up was 16. Also, palestinian militants often use small children to ferry weapons and explosives, for example in Jenin a 6 year old boy stopped by IDF soldiers had several grenades, AK magazines and other ammunition in his backpack.

Further on down the chain, there is an Agent, who has to select the target of a terrorist act and to collect information about it. Again, contrary to popular opinion, terrorist's choice of their objective is far from random. The Agent is usually a Palestinian Arab with a work permit in Israel, or less often an Israeli Arab. The Agent often works or had worked in the target location - such as a restaurant, a hotel or a banquet hall.

The Engineer prepares the bomb and its separate components.

The Mule,who brings the terrorist closer to his target is sometimes an Israeli Arab, more often a Palestinian with work permit. Usually he is not a member of a terrorist organization, but an experienced car-thief, well familiar with the Israeli society. A car with an Israeli number makes all movements in the country much easier. Such thief also knows all the roads very well and is experienced in escaping from the police.

The Planner, who commands the operation is the leader of the group, an active member of a terrorist organization (Hamas, Fatah etc.) who is the "field captain" of the terrorists. In addition to him, there is often another person who deals with the finances of the operation.

Of course, it is not a hard and fast structure. Often a single person performs several tasks, for example, recruitment and command, or, vice versa several terrorists work on the same task. The bomb is usually constructed by two or three people - the head "engineer" and his assistants.

THE EXPLOSIVE

http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/lights_out.jpg

Trigger of a suicide bomber, that was discovered by IDF soldiers in a secret laboratory in Shchem (Nablus)

Palestinians use two main types of explosive: "home-made" TATP (triacetone triperoxide) and TNT (trinitrotoluene) which is taken out of old mines and shells or brought in illegally from abroad.

Acetone peroxide is an explosive most widely available and the simplest in preparation. Its components can be easily bought in any household store without provoking suspicion - hydrogen peroxide is used for bleaching hair, acetone is used for nail polish, as a solvent or (in a solution with sulfur acid) as electrolyte. But preparation of acetone peroxide is rather dangerous, besides it must be compressed for better detonation, which can cause an explosion by itself. The plastification of acetone peroxide ("cooking" the explosive to form it as needed when it becomes cold) is a very dangerous process, too.

That's why there are always burns on Palestinian "engineers'" bodies, and sometimes body parts - fingers, hands - are missing.

But with all the disadvantages of a dangerous (for the terrorist) preparation, acetone peroxide has one definite advantage over other types of explosives - it cannot be discovered by dogs. Specially trained dogs (including dogs that were recently bought by Israel in USA) can discover explosives such as ammonal, plastic explosives, hexogen - but not acetone peroxide.

Sometimes Palestinian terrorists use acetone peroxide as an initiating explosive, and ammonal, which is simpler and less dangerous in preparation as the main explosive. "Homemade" ammonal is actually ammonia nitrate mixed with coal and aluminum powder. The ammonal, compressed and mixed in proper quantities, is a simple explosive that can be detonated by acetone peroxide. That way, less of the hazardous acetone peroxide is required, or the same quantity can be used for several bombs.

Palestinians use simple light bulbs as detonators - it is enough to break the glass and coat the wire with any easily flammable material. When the light bulb is turned on, the wire is instantly heated and the bomb detonates. It was recently mentioned in the media that a certain English doctor who worked in Jenin discovered Palestinian bombs with detonators made out of light bulbs. From this he concluded that the Palestinians were trained by IRA fighters. In fact, a light bulb is the simplest and the most widely available type of detonator and there is no need to be an IRA fighter to prepare it.

TNT or other industrially manufactured explosive comes to Palestinians in several ways, mostly by smuggling: from Jordan by land, from Lebanon to Gaza by sea, or via underground tunnels from Egypt to Rafah. Other sources of explosives are old mines, shells and bombs that are found on firing ranges and old Israeli mine fields. Finally, there are stolen explosives from Israeli stocks, though they are much harder to get then for example small arms.

Though TNT is stronger than acetone peroxide, it has a serious disadvantage - it cannot be plastified in home conditions, which is why it is much less convenient for the suicide-bomber. Often, when using tolite, terrorists don't wear belts, but take a sack or a suitcase. With TNT real detonators must be used.

Sometimes terrorists get a hold of even stronger explosives, such as C4 or other plastic explosives. C4 is significantly stronger than acetone peroxide and some 20% stronger than TNT. By its consistency C4 resembles Play Dough, so it is easy to make a bomb of any form out of it, and to hide it under the clothes. Luckily, plastic explosives are more difficult to obtain than others of the abovementioned types, which is why terrorists seldom have the opportunity to use it.

For illustration on the captured "Karin-A" ship there were more than two tons of explosives, TNT and C4.

THE BOMB

http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/fake_bomb.jpg

A Palestinian with fake Shaheed belt

A primitive bomb usually consists of several cylinders, often cut parts of metallic water pipes, filled with explosives and fragments , that are connected by a wire to a trigger, the "red button", that is usually located in the suicide bomber's pocket, or on his chest. The cylinders are hung or packed in an inner lining of a jacket, that is worn under the clothes. It is a very simple and effective device.

A more sophisticated kind is made out of plastified explosive, and consists of "plates" of explosive, that are packed into a jacket or into a lining of a coat.
The "fragmentation jacket" consists of steel balls, screws, nuts and pieces of thick wire.

THE SHRAPNEL

http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/pellets.jpg

The shrapnel elements, which were discovered by IDF forces in a secret laboratory in Shchem (Nablus)

The main killing power of any bomb is not the explosion itself (the shock wave is rather small because of small quantity of explosives used) but the fragments of its jacket, which are launched in all directions by the explosion. In air force bombs and in many types of artillery shells the pieces are formed out of the steel casing, which is split into small pieces in an explosion.

In anti-personnel tank shells and in some kinds of artillery shells part of the internal payload is dedicated to shrapnel- such a shell is filled with several thousand of needles ("flechettes"). Sometimes these flechettes are made of plastic, which do not show up on x-rays. Palestinian terrorists realized this principle long ago and use it widely. More than 90% of the victims injured are hit by the bomb shrapnel.

The most widely used and the most dangerous shrapnel consists of ball bearings 3-7 millimeters in diameter. In the most severe terrorist acts - in the Delfinarium, Sbarro, in the banquet hall in Netania - the bombs of the suicide-bombers were filled with steel balls

http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/pellets-2.jpg

In an explosion, the balls are launched with such speed, that their power is close to a bullet's. You could say that in an explosion the suicide-bomber shoots several hundred bullets in a single moment.

Aside from steel balls, nails, screws and so on, nuts and washers are also used. Nuts are easily glued together to form tiny plates that can be pressed in, or even tied by a tape to the plates of the explosive to hide it better. Likewise, nuts are also stringed on a thread or on a piece of wire, as shown on the photographs.

WARNING this link is graphic

X-ray picture of a 17-old girl, who was killed by a suicide-bomb's nail that penetrated her skull.







http://www.waronline.org/terror/suicide/rengen.jpg

[RavenW]

So it's finally translated into English.

I wished someone translated this
http://www.waronline.org/news/news.php#provoke

[born_to_love]

Bump

[American Patriot]

Why not kick out all the non-Jews and seal off Israel to prevent this from happening? More work for the Jews, Palestinians can go **** themselves.

[Moledet]

Why not kick out all the non-Jews and seal off Israel to prevent this from happening? More work for the Jews, Palestinians can go f*** themselves.
And who will make Pitot and Humus and tasty roasted meat in restaurants?
Every Israeli arab that is loyal to Israel can stay, the rest, off to Jordan.

[Zarathustra]

F*ck Hamas, they must pay for their crimes :fork:
Shalom Al Yisrael!

[Sayeret]

Why not kick out all the non-Jews and seal off Israel to prevent this from happening? More work for the Jews, Palestinians can go f*** themselves.

A lot of israeli-arabs, druze, and christians are also loyal to Israel.

[ariweiner]

As horrific as this is, it is NOTHING compared to the day in day out oppression perpetrated by Israel and it's occupation. The Israeli's can at least be grateful for the fact that their homes which they saved up for 30, 40, 50 years to build are not being demolished. They cannot travel a few miles due to roadblocks manned by sadists. Their women are not giving birth at checkpoints in cars because these same sadists don't let them pass. Their grandmothers, aunts and kids who need emergency medical attention aren't dying at checkpoints which are in full view of the hospital but occupational soldier sadists aren't letting them through. They are not being shot at by rabid hate-filled settlers who come from halfway round the world to delight in their suffering and steal more land. They don't have their fields and crops and livelihood systematically uprooted day after day after day. Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

[Hydro]

As horrific as this is, it is NOTHING compared to the day in day out oppression perpetrated by Israel and it's occupation. The Israeli's can at least be grateful for the fact that their homes which they saved up for 30, 40, 50 years to build are not being demolished. They cannot travel a few miles due to roadblocks manned by sadists. Their women are not giving birth at checkpoints in cars because these same sadists don't let them pass. Their grandmothers, aunts and kids who need emergency medical attention aren't dying at checkpoints which are in full view of the hospital but occupational soldier sadists aren't letting them through. They are not being shot at by rabid hate-filled settlers who come from halfway round the world to delight in their suffering and steal more land. They don't have their fields and crops and livelihood systematically uprooted day after day after day. Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

Well, I never saw that coming(!)

[Sayeret]

ariweiner could you just shut the hell up for once?

[ariweiner]

No I will not sthu for once. There is a fundamental underlying root cause of the M.E conflict and this is exactly Israels problem because starting from the very beginning, they have been perpetrating injustice after injustice. People, do you realize where exactly do terrorists come from? Where do most of the suicide bombers in Israel come from? From the Jenin REFUGEE CAMP! Why are they refugees? Because they were kicked out from their homes which are in modern day Israel!

http://www.electronicintifada.net/forreference/briefings/jenincamp.html

Israel is for the most part STOLEN LAND. Stolen from the inhabitants who were driven out of their homes through a combination of co-ercion and massacres. Please remember that when you judge the Palestinians.

[Hydro]

Israel isn't always an angel, but you just tell me when they start strapping TNT to their 13 year old children, OK?

[Sayeret]

ariweiner have you ever thought that maybe there is a reason that only you and Geezah support the Palestinians on this site?

[born_to_love]

Ariweiner I never knew killing woman and children at Disco's, Supermarkets, Schoolbusses in the most brutal way possible is worse than destroying an empty house

[MEGR]

Probably something you can't put on your resume...

[Kilgor]

Israel is for the most part STOLEN LAND. Stolen from the inhabitants who were driven out of their homes through a combination of co-ercion and massacres. Please remember that when you judge the Palestinians.

There have been many cultures and people who are being oppressed, had land stolen and treated unjustly. But we only see Islamic extremists blowing themselves up in busses, shops, cafe's full of children.

Dont blame others for whats happening.

We dont hear of buddist monks blowing themselves up because of chinese occupation.

[ariweiner]

Israel isn't always an angel, but you just tell me when they start strapping TNT to their 13 year old children, OK?
This isn't about being an angel. It is about correcting injustices that have been going on for 50 years!!! The Palestinians have been living this for decades! And so suicide bombings are really no surprise. It is to be noted that terrorist attacks are for the most part perpetrated in countries which are occupied or invaded.

ariweiner have you ever thought that maybe there is a reason that only you and Geezah support the Palestinians on this site?
There's a reason for everything. In this case it is due to the fact that there are more people here who are ignorant about the situation and are judging the issue by single events such as suicide bombings and this occupies their whole perspective. Suicide bombings are horrible and to be condemned but it in no way negates the injustices that Israel is and has been perpetrating against an entire non-Jewish population of millions for the past few decades.

Ariweiner I never knew killing woman and children at Disco's, Supermarkets, Schoolbusses in the most brutal way possible is worse than destroying an empty house
Blowing up empty houses? Haven't you been reading about what's going on? Are all the published articles on the tens of thousands made homeless by Israeli demolitions myths (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/427462.html)?

[Kilgor]

It is to be noted that terrorist attacks are for the most part perpetrated in countries which are occupied or invaded.


You would find those attacks would be against a military target.

& dont recall suicide bombings against civilians in ww2.

Come on.. just admit the truth.

[Sayeret]

ariweiner you must have some kind of screwed up perception of morality if you somehow justify what the Palestinian terrorist attacks.

Also why didn't you ever reply when I gave you mainstream sources, regarding Palestinian terrorist camps for kids?


I didnt post stuff from biased sources using photos from God knows where. I used mainstream sources. Give us some independent verification of the claims made in the initial post.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16659

[ariweiner]

You would find those attacks would be against a military target.

And isn't a military target a legitimate target?
===


ariweiner you must have some kind of screwed up perception of morality if you somehow justify what the Palestinian terrorist attacks.

I did not justify terrorism perpetrated by Palestinians. I stated that Israeli state terrorism is much much worse than Palestinian terrorism and that the two should not be equated in Israel's favor.


Also why didn't you ever reply when I gave you mainstream sources, regarding Palestinian terrorist camps for kids?

I apologise. I read it but I didn't have time to reply. First of all the pics of the Hamas rally. I see no kiddy terrorist camp in the images or story shown.

Secondly, about the "child suicide bombers." Look at the evidence. It is extremely clear to me that this is an Israeli manufactured incident. No Mujahid that I have ever heard of uses the "72 virgins" claim. I have heard this ONLY from Israeli's and their supporters. Along with the ridiculous claim that burying mujahideen in pigs skin somehow prevents them from going to heaven, again something that I have only heard from Israeli's and their supporters. And lastly, according to an Al Jazeera interview with the boys family, the family stated that the boy said that Israeli's had given him the explosives vest and forced him to do it.

As for the final MSNBC link. That is Abrams opinion based on news coverage and is consequently not mainstream.

[Kilgor]

You would find those attacks would be against a military target.

And isn't a military target a legitimate target?
.

yeah.. and where are the majority of suicide attacks ?

soft civilian targets.

Busses, cafes, nightclubs..

Hardly military targets. Cowards.

[Kilgor]

You would find those attacks would be against a military target.

It is extremely clear to me that this is an Israeli manufactured incident. .

Just like the Saudis saying their terrorists attacks were commited by zionists. :roll:

half the problem is people like you cant accept the truth.

[Sayeret]

ariweiner believe whatever the hell you want. You can believe that Zionists are taking over the world for all I care but I'm done arguing with you because all the stuff you post is pure crap. You support Islamic terrorists no matter where the come from and or what kind of crap they spew out.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15828&highlight=ariweiner

Here you post some anti-American crap which claims that the US set Nick Berg up

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12647&highlight=ariweiner

Here you support the "Chechen Resistance"

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9426&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=algeria+terrorists&start=16

Here you post your support for the terrorists in Algeria

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16435&highlight=ariweiner

crap you posted about the Israelis

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=64

Here you post that the French are stupid for not allowing Muslim women to wear headwear.

Why don't you go live in your imaginary land in which Imperalist powers are always going around picking on the "poor defenseless" muslim extremists who just want to live in peace.

[jizzmonkey]

all this CRAP ' ohhh the israelis are occupying palestinian land" BULL**** is as old as old gets, Israel has always belonged to the JEWSISH people, they have been the most conquered and dissplaced people in history, they claimed what biblically belonged to them in the first place, the Palestinians have NO heritage, they are ARABS, just as the jordanians, egyptians etc...ARABS.

LONG LIVE ISRAEL!!!


SCREW THE PALESTINIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fork:

[Javehn]

HAhahaha , that was the funniest **** ever , Arik . So now El-Jazeera and Kavkazcenter are legitimite information sources , while everything other is not ? You are perverted idiot , the Kavkazcenter is excellent example for Arabic menthality of over exadurating everything , and making themself looking heroic and brave .
If you would live in the 60's , probably you would listen to the Radio Cairo telling everybody that Egypt troops braking threw to Tel-Aviv and "killed" 90 Israeli planes , while Israeli troops washed their legs in Suez canal . That was the case , and that will be the case , sence it is the only thing you and your kind good at , babbling . So shut the hell up . There are helicopter shoots from Rafah i brought here , they are in direct condradiction with the bull**** said , or you bellieve that the type is edited .


I apologise. I read it but I didn't have time to reply. First of all the pics of the Hamas rally. I see no kiddy terrorist camp in the images or story shown.

You appologise ? It seams you have more then enough replies in this thread . What stoped you to answer there as well ? Or is it more convinient not to answer the questions , but only to accuse someone ? Defenetly Ari wainer , go waine in other place .

[born_to_love]

all this CRAP ' ohhh the israelis are occupying palestinian land" BULL**** is as old as old gets, Israel has always belonged to the JEWSISH people, they have been the most conquered and dissplaced people in history, they claimed what biblically belonged to them in the first place, the Palestinians have NO heritage, they are ARABS, just as the jordanians, egyptians etc...ARABS.

LONG LIVE ISRAEL!!!


SCREW THE PALESTINIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fork:

Not even the arabs want the palestinian! they are nothing but trouble makers, they disgrace the arabs.

thasts why they are being tortured in jordan and syria everyday with no rights or anyything and jordan kill 25000 of them in the 1970's, yet the world doesnt hear ****, but when we kill one or we make them have special license plates the whole world condemns us

[jizzmonkey]

all this CRAP ' ohhh the israelis are occupying palestinian land" BULL**** is as old as old gets, Israel has always belonged to the JEWSISH people, they have been the most conquered and dissplaced people in history, they claimed what biblically belonged to them in the first place, the Palestinians have NO heritage, they are ARABS, just as the jordanians, egyptians etc...ARABS.

LONG LIVE ISRAEL!!!


SCREW THE PALESTINIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fork:

Not even the arabs want the palestinian! they are nothing but trouble makers, they disgrace the arabs.

thasts why they are being tortured in jordan and syria everyday with no rights or anyything and jordan kill 25000 of them in the 1970's, yet the world doesnt hear ****, but when we kill one or we make them have special license plates the whole world condemns us

no condemning from me!!


how do I join the Israeli army?

Do I have to convert to Judaism?, or will the IDF take a Gentile?

[Javehn]

no condemning from me!!


how do I join the Israeli army?

Do I have to convert to Judaism?, or will the IDF take a Gentile?

Trust me , you don't want to :) . You will be forced to polish some shoes and wrap daily rations .

A little something to Arieweiner who don't know **** :

People, do you realize where exactly do terrorists come from? Where do most of the suicide bombers in Israel come from? From the Jenin REFUGEE CAMP! Why are they refugees? Because they were kicked out from their homes which are in modern day Israel!


They were kicked out of their homes ...... I am looking out from my window now . You know what i see ?
I see Nazareth , huge city ! I see Shfaraam . I see Kafar Kana . All those are Arabic Israeli towns . They live excellent , oh my , every house here have 2 shiny new Mercedess while i can't afford poor Shkoda to myself :) . And the most important for you , they are here . Somehow you missed that ? Those are no refugees , and they are arabs !! They live exactly where they lived . In Haifa , Arabis living next to Jews , they are good naighbours , and they lived in the same houses that they lived 50 or 60 years ago .

How your perverted logic answers that ? They were forced to stay , idiot ?

Jenin refugee camp . You know what is the real reason ? Not the one you ****ed from your brains . The reason is that if i take up some binoculars , i can see it from my window . This is the perfect example of how much closeness Palestinian city has to Israel . This is the easiest place to perform suicide acts . And not your bull**** .
Always the easiest way to fight . Like having to use small kids and women because they can pass on checkpoints . And now your idiocy wonder why the soldiers act the way they act . Choosing the way of terror , instead of fighting , because it's easier . Lying their ass off , because it's easier .
How about your favorite Jenin residents who lied their ass off ? Like the menager of Jenin main hospital ? One can think it's respectable person . Person that will not lie and say that Israelies bombed the **** out of his hospital wing , while this wing didn't even existed .
Always the easiest way .

[jizzmonkey]

no condemning from me!!


how do I join the Israeli army?

Do I have to convert to Judaism?, or will the IDF take a Gentile?

Trust me , you don't want to :) . You will be forced to polish some shoes and wrap daily rations .

Even with 10 years in the US army and combat expierience?

I'll polish some boots!!, start the life of a private all over again!

and I can polish the **** out of some boots!

[Javehn]

We have people here with an experience of 20 + years in Soviet Army (like my father) , and they can't do many with that ...

[jizzmonkey]

We have people here with an experience of 20 + years in Soviet Army (like my father) , and they can't do many with that ...

yeah, but I'm still in the army,

cant I just put on a yamahcah and transfer over?

I kill iraqi terrorist just as good as palestinian!!

[Javehn]

You will have to cut the tip of your ***** as well ;) . Be crefull , many doctors those days miss the target .


I kill iraqi terrorist just as good as palestinian!!

I don't think this line will work in reqruitment center . I assume that you heard the word "Meshugine" , and you will hear it in action from the doctor ;) .

[born_to_love]

In 1948 when Israel was ours, we offered the palestinians to stay.. most of them left thinking that the big bad 6 arab armys can destroy little Israel and they can come back after the war.,

the plan backfired, the arabs lost (how the **** did they lose?!) and the palestinians were refugee's, the arab neighbors dont wnat them, why the hell should we take them?

and Israeli arabs have just as much rights in Israel as any other israeli, they have better quality of life in israel than in arab countrys!

They can hate israel ( which alot do) and still be free to do what they want, live succesful, run in the government etc etc...

so stfu btich

[jizzmonkey]

You will have to cut the tip of your ***** as well ;) . Be crefull , many doctors those days miss the target .


I kill iraqi terrorist just as good as palestinian!!

I don't think this line will work in reqruitment center . I assume that you heard the word "Meshugine" , and you will hear it in action from the doctor ;) .

heeeeey....The Tip of my *****????

this is the 21st century, I'm allready circumsized, if you mean additional cutting then there is a problem.

but other than that what else would disqualify me?

I'm serious, My wife is Jewish, we have discussed this before. I would like to move to Isreal to live, but being in the army so long, in the Infantry I dont have many job skills other than that.

[Javehn]

If you are serious , then it will be a very big problem to fit it inside the army . Inpossible is most correct . If you are not in your 18-23 , then you missed the train , and all you will get is ****y reserves couple of times in the year .
I think the same about Police , you would have to wait some "cooling" period of 5 years if i am not mistaken , and i assume that you will be allready to old to enlist (if you said you were 10 years in infantry , it makes you in your older 20's ? While the last age of enlist is 35 without many options to carrier advancement ) .

It'sa terrible waist of human resources , but that's the way it is .

[jizzmonkey]

If you are serious , then it will be a very big problem to fit it inside the army . Inpossible is most correct . If you are not in your 18-23 , then you missed the train , and all you will get is ****y reserves couple of times in the year .
I think the same about Police , you would have to wait some "cooling" period of 5 years if i am not mistaken , and i assume that you will be allready to old to enlist (if you said you were 10 years in infantry , it makes you in your older 20's ? While the last age of enlist is 35 without many options to carrier advancement ) .

It'sa terrible waist of human resources , but that's the way it is .

I'm 28, so I guess i'll stay in the US army till I retire , my next enlistment in November is "Indefinate" which will make it difficult to get out, not to mention we are "stop-lossed" so I couldnt get out now If I wanted to.

That sucks

I even bought an IDF t- shirt!
I think I'll wear it in Iraq later this summer..... I'm sure the arabs wouldnt think I had alternate motives! :D

[born_to_love]

www.mahal2000.com

For volunteer's..

[Javehn]

www.mahal2000.com

For volunteer's..

That's something very different from what he neads , dude

[born_to_love]

sorry i read the first and last line of what someone writes and make my assuimptions.

but dude whatever u want , theres always exceptions the IDF will make just talk to people in charge and ****.

goodnight yakov

[ariweiner]

ariweiner believe whatever the hell you want. You can believe that Zionists are taking over the world for all I care but I'm done arguing with you because all the stuff you post is pure crap. You support Islamic terrorists no matter where the come from and or what kind of crap they spew out.
I don't believe that zionists are taking over the world nor do I support terrorists of any kind, Muslims or Jews.


Here you post some anti-American crap which claims that the US set Nick Berg up
Take the trouble to read that article and you will see that all it notes is that Nick Berg was not alive when he was decapitated.


Here you support the "Chechen Resistance"
So what? They are fighting a tyrannical imperialistic terrorist state and they have my full support.


Here you post your support for the terrorists in Algeria
Noting that Algerian security services are perpetrating massacres disguised as terrorists is "supporting terrorism"?


crap you posted about the Israelis
Again, please take the trouble to read the article. These are Israeli soldiers themselves stating how they torture and abuse ordinary Palestinian civilians.


Here you post that the French are stupid for not allowing Muslim women to wear headwear.
I said that the move to ban hijab is a stupid move for a "democracy." We claim that as democracies, we give people their rights but apparently we only mean people who wish to be immoral and irreligious.
===


Israel has always belonged to the JEWISH people
Get this straight. It was not the Muslim Arabs who kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem. It was Christian Romans who did that because the Jews were in their minds, the "killers of Christ." When the Caliph Umar peacefully conquered Jerusalem, he allowed the Jews back in and cleaned up the Haram Al Sharif (Temple Mount) which was being used as a garbage dump and public toilet by the Romans. Any beef that the Jews might have, they better settle it with the Romans.
===


So now El-Jazeera and Kavkazcenter are legitimite information sources
Aren't they? Why are the illegitimate? Because they show 5 year old Iraqi girls (http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_child_3.jpg) (WARNING: Graphic image) with their legs blown off by American bombing? And that is "inciting terrorism" as far as the "civilized world" is concerned?
===

Not even the arabs want the palestinian! they are nothing but trouble makers, they disgrace the arabs.
This attitude is typical amongst Israelis so far as I can see. If it were said about Jews, there'd probably be a US Congressional Inquiry and a public condemnation by world leaders of anti-semitism.


thasts why they are being tortured in jordan and syria everyday with no rights or anyything and jordan kill 25000 of them in the 1970's, yet the world doesnt hear ****, but when we kill one or we make them have special license plates the whole world condemns us
Is this the excuse for Israel's atrocities? As for the special license plates, they are pretty equivalent to Nazi Germany making Jews wear Stars and giving them "special treatment" accordingly. Apartheid about sums it up.
===


I see Shfaraam . I see Kafar Kana . All those are Arabic Israeli towns . They live excellent
So the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians refugees are undoubtedly a myth and figment of world imagination no doubt... :roll:
=====


In 1948 when Israel was ours, we offered the palestinians to stay.. most of them left thinking that the big bad 6 arab armys can destroy little Israel and they can come back after the war.
Or maybe they left due to being terrorised by incidents like Deir Yassin (http://www.deiryassin.org/)?


the palestinians were refugee's, the arab neighbors dont wnat them, why the hell should we take them?
Because a thief returning what he stole is the right thing to do.

[Javehn]

Because a thief returning what he stole is the right thing to do.
Arieweiner , where do you live ? In USA ? Get the **** out of there now !! Return the land for it's rightfull owners . Hebron was jewish city and only Jewish for 2000 years . I don't see you getting excited to return it . Part if Jerusalem was jewish for 2000 years , the same part that was occupied from 1948 to 1967 . Your point will be ?


Or maybe they left due to being terrorised by incidents like Deir Yassin?

Or maybe not .


Aren't they? Why are the illegitimate? Because they show 5 year old Iraqi girls (WARNING: Graphic image) with their legs blown off by American bombing? And that is "inciting terrorism" as far as the "civilized world" is concerned?


Learn to read , idiot . Because your friends have strong tendency to lie and over react everything . I bellieve i wrote that was the reason . To lasy to read , asholio ?



So the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians refugees are undoubtedly a myth and figment of world imagination no doubt...

And the 600,000 Jews that were kicked from their lands without any right to take anything is a pegment of mine imagination ? :roll:



Is this the excuse for Israel's atrocities? As for the special license plates, they are pretty equivalent to Nazi Germany making Jews wear Stars and giving them "special treatment" accordingly. Apartheid about sums it up.
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Does your menthal clinic still looking for you ? You know that in Russia for example there are different lisence plates for different areas ? You know that government plates have different colors ? You know that it's what Palestinians want as part of their own attributes, homo moronicus ? Hooly **** ,that is the most redicolous **** you ever wrote , do you expect to be taken seriously ? Ha , what a dumbass . You know , one of my good Arabic friends named "Yussuf" , it's something like hebrew Josef . ****en jews , they made Arabs take their names rofl rofl . What a looser you are .

Hre you go :
http://www.hevre.co.il/images/photos/438094_212998.JPG

[Javehn]

Is this the excuse for Israel's atrocities? As for the special license plates, they are pretty equivalent to Nazi Germany making Jews wear Stars and giving them "special treatment" accordingly. Apartheid about sums it up.

Check this out Arielooser . This is a Palestinian gunmen shooting with Israeli given M-16 , back on Israelies . How those Jewish dare to force Palestinians to take the M-16 ????? This is Apartehid !!!! Sharmuta kalb inaal tizak . You are pathetic , you are perfect example of the disinformation . Go to your precious Kavkaz center , they will make you more fantasy stories , idiot .

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album43/pales39.jpg

[big80a2]

Ariwiener here is a story for you:
This is wat happend to a palastinian girlfriend of mine.

She was riding on a bus in the evening and she was sitting next to a orthodox jew (yep palies are allowed to choose where they sit in the bus)

Suddenly the bus got shooted at and bullets hit the windows and sides.
The jewish man graps here and put here down so she is covered, He himself above her (yep he was protecting her with his own body!!).
the bus drove on fast. And nobody was injured.

She was verry thankfull she was not harmed and thanked the jewish man.

A couple of day's later she went to her familly and told them the story.
Her uncle answerd her and said: "to bad you didn't die, than you would have been a marthyr".

See this terror thing aint about stopping ocupation this is about destroying Israel. What is your land worth if you have send your chilldren to death.

[ariweiner]

Arieweiner , where do you live ? In USA ? Get the f*** out of there now !! Return the land for it's rightfull owners.
The land I am living on 300 years ago was owned by the Ohlone Indian tribe. The difference between us and the Israelis is that WE did not steal the land! The people who came before us stole it and I am not responsible for the vile actions of others perpetrated several hundred years ago. But in Israel, the original thieves are still living in the land and this is the difference.


Hebron was jewish city and only Jewish for 2000 years . I don't see you getting excited to return it . Part if Jerusalem was jewish for 2000 years , the same part that was occupied from 1948 to 1967 . Your point will be?
It may have been a Jewish city for a million years, the point is that the Palestinians DID NOT steal the land from them and consequently them kicking out Palestinians who have lived there for hundreds of years and occupying their land is nothing more than theft.


And the 600,000 Jews that were kicked from their lands without any right to take anything is a pegment of mine imagination ?
Huh? Are you talking about Nazi Germany? Why don't the Jews go settle in Germany then?


You know that in Russia for example there are different lisence plates for different areas ? You know that government plates have different colors ? You know that it's what Palestinians want as part of their own attributes, homo moronicus ?
http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html

What's with the name calling? Did I call you names?


This is a Palestinian gunmen shooting with Israeli given M-16 , back on Israelies . How those Jewish dare to force Palestinians to take the M-16 ?????
Israeli given or Israeli bought? Don't you know that Israeli soldiers have sold their weapons to Palestinians because they realize that they are perpetrating injustices and they want Palestinians to defend themselves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2138155.stm

===

big80a2, I have no way of confirming or denying your story. I will assume that it is true however. In any case, applying the Right of Return will not destroy Israel nor will serving justice destroy Israel.

[Javehn]

What's with the name calling? Did I call you names?

Don't start dinosaur tears here , ok ? Your tears not impress me . Maybe it's because of this , idiot :


Israeli given or Israeli bought? Don't you know that Israeli soldiers have sold their weapons to Palestinians because they realize that they are perpetrating injustices and they want Palestinians to defend themselves?

From what Anderson fairy tail you came from , idiot ? Do you have any idea what the hell you are writting about ? You have droped on your head one time to much ? Israeli soldiers solled their weapons to Palestinians ? Arieweiner , excuse me , but you are trully an idiot . That was one single case of criminals , army is not free of them .
But i see that you are working on Kavkazcenter style , when one dead soldier becoming an army of 1000 troops and 200 tanks vanished from earth by brave Muslim fighters .



Huh? Are you talking about Nazi Germany? Why don't the Jews go settle in Germany then?


And on top you don't know history for **** , or perhaps your revised one . 600,000 Jewish refugees from Arabic land .

Stupid prick , you wonder why you get treated that way ? Because you are an idiot , living on revised history books .

[Fox2]

It may have been a Jewish city for a million years, the point is that the Palestinians DID NOT steal the land from them and consequently them kicking out Palestinians who have lived there for hundreds of years and occupying their land is nothing more than theft.

Those who fled did so of their own free will. They were not forced out when Israel achieved statehood. Many Arabs infact stayed and are now Israeli citizens because they chose to stay in their homes instead of run away.

Have you ever been to the Middle East, ariweiner? The question has no attachments to it, just curious.

[Javehn]

No , offcorse not . In Israel ? You can take my balls off if this prik stepped outside the plane . He has no idea what he is talking about .

Look at the sources he bringing , i have never read so many bull**** . Lisence plates as a means of Apartehid . Only idiot can write that , and only pure idiot can bellieve it , and then have insulence to say other people bring biased pictures (pictures , not text) , from biased site . It's not all about depressing Palestinians , you know , we have other things to think besides them .

I am not talking about the fact that this report from 1995 , and entire system is different now . On my car it was written Israel . Military cars had different colors , Police cars had different plate colors . Really , from what fairy tail you falled upon us ?

Oh , i forgot , also UN and Diplomats have different plates coor . Oh yea , this is also for the Apartehid rofl rofl . You should think twice of that **** you post .

[Javehn]

The land I am living on 300 years ago was owned by the Ohlone Indian tribe. The difference between us and the Israelis is that WE did not steal the land! The people who came before us stole it and I am not responsible for the vile actions of others perpetrated several hundred years ago. But in Israel, the original thieves are still living in the land and this is the difference.

Very original :roll: . And , this is not double standart ?
You understand what you are saying ? Because of the fact that people before you stolled that land , makes perfectly ok for you to live there on stollen land . Makes perfect Arielooser sence .

Tell me , you always been so idiot , or it become with an age . Uskut , ya kalbuka .

[Javehn]

Arie sweiner , i also didn't saw your crododile tears over people that was beaten and shot to death by Lebanon police . People that wanted to liberate their friends that locked up in Syrian jails . Where are your crocodile tears on that subject ? Why you don't raise your voice over that matter ? Something wrong here ? Eri fik .

http://www.lfpm.org/

[AirZone]

Ari, Heared about the massacre of Hevron ?
Dir Yassin ? WTF?! it was a bloody fight, only massacre i know off is Kfar Kassem. (and every jew condem it...mabye not the ultra right minor extreme ones but theres so little of them)


Anyway you dont know ****... dont waste our time nor javenh time.. azov oto ahi lets just buy him a one way ticket to gaza and see how brave he is...

jerk :roll:

[ariweiner]

That was one single case of criminals , army is not free of them .
This is one case that was found out. There are undoubtedly many others. There was an article on this a few weeks back, let me try dig it up.

And on top you don't know history for **** , or perhaps your revised one . 600,000 Jewish refugees from Arabic land .
Ok. Lest we forget they were kicked out in retaliation for over hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being kicked out of their homes by Israel.
===

Those who fled did so of their own free will. They were not forced out when Israel achieved statehood. Many Arabs infact stayed and are now Israeli citizens because they chose to stay in their homes instead of run away.
They "ran away" as you call it due to the terrorist activities of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern gang. And by International Law, they have the right to return to their homes.

Have you ever been to the Middle East, ariweiner?
Yes, many many times.
===

Lisence plates as a means of Apartehid . Only idiot can write that , and only pure idiot can bellieve it , and then have insulence to say other people bring biased pictures (pictures , not text) , from biased site . It's not all about depressing Palestinians , you know , we have other things to think besides them .

Read the article man. It clearly shows that the license plates are issued on a race basis. Apartheid 101.

I am not talking about the fact that this report from 1995 , and entire system is different now . On my car it was written Israel . Military cars had different colors , Police cars had different plate colors . Really , from what fairy tail you falled upon us ?
From what I am aware, Palestinians are still issued license plates based on race. I think Israel got the idea from the Nazi's.

Oh , i forgot , also UN and Diplomats have different plates coor . Oh yea , this is also for the Apartehid
This is not about different color license plates and who gets what. It is specifically about Palestinians being issued specific license plates and those "special" license plates are used to discriminate against them. This is called apartheid.

Very original icon_rolleyes.gif . And , this is not double standart ?
You understand what you are saying ? Because of the fact that people before you stolled that land , makes perfectly ok for you to live there on stollen land . Makes perfect Arielooser sence .
Errr, I did not steal the land. I am only responsible for my own actions. And the land was stolen 3-4-500 years ago and not with my approval. But in Israel, the land is still being occupied by the thieves and justice can still be done.

[AirZone]

Hmm... so how you can explain that Israeli Arbs have the same Yellow plates that the Jews have ? aye ?

dont spit your garbage in here it doesnt make sense and wasting our time and comparing us to the Nazi shows your true nature :bash:


יאאאאאא עוזב אותך צ'צ'נים חותכים ראשים, הייתי לוקח סכין גילוח וחותך לו את הביצים לאט לאט
המזדיין הזה מתחיל לעצבן אותי :D

[Moledet]

למה אתם מתווכחים איתו? הוא יצא אדיוט מושלם עם הקטע של הלוחיות רישוי, זה היה אחד הקטעים המצחיקים ביותר שקראתי ואני לא חושב שאני היחיד שחושב ככה. לפני מה שאני ראיתי בזמן המועט שהייתי פה הוא לא בדיוק אהוד פה ואף אחד לא חושב שהדעות שלו נכונות או הגיוניות. אל תגיבו לאף" כתבה" או תגובה שהוא יפרסם ובסוף הוא יתייאש ויפסיק לפרסם אותן.

[Javehn]

Errr, I did not steal the land. I am only responsible for my own actions. And the land was stolen 3-4-500 years ago and not with my approval. But in Israel, the land is still being occupied by the thieves and justice can still be done.

Hmm ... Stupido , wher are the crododile tears of Syria stealing Lebanon country ? Kurds ? Shut the **** up then , uskut ya kalb . Those thiefes and robers where the people of 600,000 jew , while more then milion Palestinian and 5 armies of the world against them . And the jews were poorly armed , do you really think that all they cared was to steal someone's land ? Think again , stupido .


This is not about different color license plates and who gets what. It is specifically about Palestinians being issued specific license plates and those "special" license plates are used to discriminate against them. This is called apartheid. [q/uote]

Don't bull**** the bull****er , aye ? They just want to feel special . And this article is bull**** , no more no less . There are more then 6 types of plates in Israel , so every one of them is is formed for Apartehid ? You are really dumbass , don't you ? I don't care less about that article , that was the strangest piece of **** i read for a long time .


[quote]From what I am aware, Palestinians are still issued license plates based on race. I think Israel got the idea from the Nazi's.


And i think of buying the ticket for USA and **** you up for good , for saying that .



From what I am aware, Palestinians are still issued license plates based on race. I think Israel got the idea from the Nazi's.


You know , how i know that you are a stinking bull****er ? Guess where i live , it's not Mars .

[ariweiner]

Arie sweiner , i also didn't saw your crododile tears over people that was beaten and shot to death by Lebanon police . People that wanted to liberate their friends that locked up in Syrian jails . Where are your crocodile tears on that subject ? Why you don't raise your voice over that matter ? Something wrong here ? Eri fik .
Every matter in it's turn. The threat of the enemy invaders is much more serious than internal abuses. Both are to be condemned, however one is much more serious and life-threatening than the other.

Ari, Heared about the massacre of Hevron ?
1929? Yes I have but I have been unable to garner any information except those that come from right wing sites and I am not willing to trust their veracity..

Dir Yassin ? WTF?! it was a bloody fight, only massacre i know off is Kfar Kassem. (and every jew condem it...mabye not the ultra right minor extreme ones but theres so little of them)
Not according to this site which quotes Israeli sources: http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

Anyway you dont know ****... dont waste our time nor javenh time.. azov oto ahi lets just buy him a one way ticket to gaza and see how brave he is...

jerk
I am somewhat puzzled by the name calling. I can only assume that it is used to cover up for the lack of an answer.

Hmm... so how you can explain that Israeli Arbs have the same Yellow plates that the Jews have ? aye ?
I don't because I am not talking about Israel "proper." I am referring to the Occupied Territories.

[AirZone]

למה אתם מתווכחים איתו? הוא יצא אדיוט מושלם עם הקטע של הלוחיות רישוי, זה היה אחד הקטעים המצחיקים ביותר שקראתי ואני לא חושב שאני היחיד שחושב ככה. לפני מה שאני ראיתי בזמן המועט שהייתי פה הוא לא בדיוק אהוד פה ואף אחד לא חושב שהדעות שלו נכונות או הגיוניות. אל תגיבו לאף" כתבה" או תגובה שהוא יפרסם ובסוף הוא יתייאש ויפסיק לפרסם אותן.

בחיית, תן לי 5 דקות וסכין גילוח מאך3... rofl

[big80a2]

ariwiener,

yep the story I told you is true and I was quite shocked by it and the other story's.
Also the rathional thinking you(we) aply in the west aint the thinking jused in Arab/muslim culture. So maybe you have explenation for everything, but hey a palie only needs the words 72 virgins to change his mind...

Also tell me why are pali terrorist promised 72 virgins?
If the hardship of there live is so hard that it makes it worth blowing themselfs up, why do they need the propaganda of the 72 virgins?? hmmmz...

I will never say Palies have nice lives they never had before israel in the terretories and not after. But you are pointing the vinger to Israel all the time.
I'm lucky to know palies and there story's, the way they live (hardship), and I'm able to talk to them without the brainwashing stuff.

About right of return. IMO this could only happen when there is a seperate palie state. Also only the palies that have fled in the past (before 1967) can go back. It where there plans to leave and there children can't be acounted for there parents actions... so they have no right of return. That's quite acording to you stance on your own situation.

[Javehn]

טוב , צודק , יותר אני לא עונה לחזרזיר הארי הזה .
חי באגדות . דפוק לגמרי . חבל שאני מבקש ממנו את הכתובת שלו , והוא לא נותן , כי תכננתי לטוס מתישהו לארה"ב ....

[ariweiner]

do you really think that all they cared was to steal someone's land ? The best excuse I could come up with for them is that maybe they weren't thinking of stealing land but that is what they undoubtedly ended up doing.

Think again , stupido .
So tell me why instead of calling me names!

There are more then 6 types of plates in Israel , so every one of them is is formed for Apartehid ?
Again I am talking about the license plates in the Israeli-occupied territories.

Quote:
From what I am aware, Palestinians are still issued license plates based on race. I think Israel got the idea from the Nazi's.

And i think of buying the ticket for USA and f*** you up for good , for saying that .
What? Why? Because a clear link between Israel and the Nazi's(identification of a particular group to single them out for different treatment) was made?

[AirZone]

Arie sweiner , i also didn't saw your crododile tears over people that was beaten and shot to death by Lebanon police . People that wanted to liberate their friends that locked up in Syrian jails . Where are your crocodile tears on that subject ? Why you don't raise your voice over that matter ? Something wrong here ? Eri fik .
Every matter in it's turn. The threat of the enemy invaders is much more serious than internal abuses. Both are to be condemned, however one is much more serious and life-threatening than the other.

Ari, Heared about the massacre of Hevron ?
1929? Yes I have but I have been unable to garner any information except those that come from right wing sites and I am not willing to trust their veracity..

Dir Yassin ? WTF?! it was a bloody fight, only massacre i know off is Kfar Kassem. (and every jew condem it...mabye not the ultra right minor extreme ones but theres so little of them)
Not according to this site which quotes Israeli sources: http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

Anyway you dont know ****... dont waste our time nor javenh time.. azov oto ahi lets just buy him a one way ticket to gaza and see how brave he is...

jerk
I am somewhat puzzled by the name calling. I can only assume that it is used to cover up for the lack of an answer.

Hmm... so how you can explain that Israeli Arbs have the same Yellow plates that the Jews have ? aye ?
I don't because I am not talking about Israel "proper." I am referring to the Occupied Territories.

Look deeper about Hevron massacre... I'm sure you will find about it (but of course you dont care so you dont look about it) with more "proper leftish" websites.

Well I called you a jerk.. because...well...you are a jerk?
Javenh already explained why.

About Kfar Kasem, every Jew (and Arbs.. i live in haifa and i have some good friends that live near me) that have some senses and he's not extreme lunatic (like you) says it was worng and condemn it.

[Ars Moriendi]

Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

Word. You are not alone ariweiner, continue with your excellent posts.

[Fox2]

They "ran away" as you call it due to the terrorist activities of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern gang. And by International Law, they have the right to return to their homes.

That may be the case for some, but many just left because, as mentioned previously, they thought the surrounding countries would quickly destroy Israel, and they could return anyway. Regardless, the point is that the Israeli government did not force them to leave. Perhaps a group of Israelis forced some out, but the Israeli government itself did not. Perhaps all white Americans should pay for the injustices of the Klu Klux Klan? Because that is quite analagous to the Jewish terrorist groups and the Israeli government.


Errr, I did not steal the land. I am only responsible for my own actions. And the land was stolen 3-4-500 years ago and not with my approval. But in Israel, the land is still being occupied by the thieves and justice can still be done.

This is contradictory to your statements on Israeli "injustices." If one is only responsible for one's own actions, then today's working generation in Israel is a generation or two after those who were first around in '48. So, why should most of today's Israeli citizens, who weren't around to do what you accuse them of, be brought to justice for something they did not do? Using that logic, shouldn't all Americans also be brought to justice for the atrocities committed against the Native American people?

[AirZone]

Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

Word. You are not alone ariweiner, continue with your excellent posts. good for you !!!!!!!!!! now what ? condemn us ? tell us we are nazis? only words and you do nothing... demagogues !

and if you are saying god... well dont you forget we are jewish ? god picked us from all the others we are the chosen ones ! ZIG HAIL... all those semite palastines should die in the hand of a pure and beautiful aryan jewish soldiers :roll: (sarcasm if you demagogues dont understand)

ah f00k it... they dont want to hear facts nor reality... just check the video of the helo, i will be happy to translate it for you and you will understand what really happens in there

and before you say another of your garbage compering us to the nazi i suggest you will fly now to israel/palastine and see what really happens in here... and dont get yourself brainwashed from the website because reality is very different from the internet...

[big80a2]

Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

Word. You are not alone ariweiner, continue with your excellent posts.

If your are speaking on christian behalf than read the bible!!!

...those who bless you will be blessed and those who curse you will be cursed...

so whatch your mouth! not for me for yourself

[ariweiner]

Also the rathional thinking you(we) aply in the west aint the thinking jused in Arab/muslim culture.
Really? A few months ago in the area that I live in a 20 year old pulled out a handgun and shot some 14 year old kid dead. The reason given: he did not like the color of his shirt (which was red). Is this an example of Western rational thinking? Could I apply this example to all of the West and tell you that all westerners think like this? That's how you seem to regard the Arabs.

So maybe you have explenation for everything, but hey a palie only needs the words 72 virgins to change his mind...
Go through all the Jihadi sites (Listed here: http://www.haganah.us/jihadi/pij.html) and find me where they talk about 72 virgins as a reason to commit suicide.

About right of return. IMO this could only happen when there is a seperate palie state. Also only the palies that have fled in the past (before 1967) can go back. It where there plans to leave and there children can't be acounted for there parents actions... so they have no right of return. That's quite acording to you stance on your own situation.
I'm not sure that I follow you. I know Palestinian refugees who still have the keys to their homes which used to be in Israel. The land and houses is still theirs. They have documentary evidence to prove it including land deeds. So the situation that you mention does not apply since ownership can easily be proved.

[Javehn]

Ars Moriendi wrote:
ariweiner wrote:
Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....


Word. You are not alone ariweiner, continue with your excellent posts.

Comming from a Muslim (You are Muslim , right ?), that doesn't sounds so scary :) . Yes , "Israeli have no might , Allah will punish them , and turn them into the darkness darker then night" :) , 1967 ,Israeli soldiers wash their legs in Suez canal .
Wonder really on who's side God is here .... ;)

And why i am calling you names , Ari sweiner ? Well , you called us , what thieves ? Killers , what else , gangsters ? You come to someone's house and starts to insult him , what do you think you will get back , idioto ?
Done your annual head checking lately ? Well , now you can discuss it between yourself and Ars moderni :) ערס מודרני אלק

[AirZone]

טוב , צודק , יותר אני לא עונה לחזרזיר הארי הזה .
חי באגדות . דפוק לגמרי . חבל שאני מבקש ממנו את הכתובת שלו , והוא לא נותן , כי תכננתי לטוס מתישהו לארה"ב ....

המממ.... אלוהים מה הייתי עושה לבן זונה הזה. נאצי מסריח...

[Fox2]

Really? A few months ago in the area that I live in a 20 year old pulled out a handgun and shot some 14 year old kid dead. The reason given: he did not like the color of his shirt (which was red). Is this an example of Western rational thinking? Could I apply this example to all of the West and tell you that all westerners think like this?

How often do you hear about incidents similar to the scenario you described? How often do suicide bombings happen? Compare.


That's how you seem to regard the Arabs.

I believe the correct term is Palestinian. Not all Arabs act like the Palestinians. No, the only people the Israelis are generalizing here are the terrorists. Arabs are just as welcome in Israel as Jews or Christians are. Terrorists however, are not.

[ariweiner]

Look deeper about Hevron massacre... I'm sure you will find about it (but of course you dont care so you dont look about it) with more "proper leftish" websites.
When I look up something I like to know BOTH sides to the story. In this case I can only find Israeli sources only and I have read them. Until I can find some way of balancing this, I really don't feel like commenting. However, if it happened in the exact way described by Israeli sources(that Arabs went on a rampage for little or no reason), then it is to be condemned totally.

About Kfar Kasem, every Jew (and Arbs.. i live in haifa and i have some good friends that live near me) that have some senses and he's not extreme lunatic (like you) says it was worng and condemn it.
Good for you and good for your friends. As for the extreme lunatic comment...
===

That may be the case for some, but many just left because, as mentioned previously, they thought the surrounding countries would quickly destroy Israel, and they could return anyway.
Give me some proof of this please. I have it from first hand sources(Palestinians who fled) that this was not the case.

This is contradictory to your statements on Israeli "injustices." If one is only responsible for one's own actions, then today's working generation in Israel is a generation or two after those who were first around in '48.
It is not contradictory because the Palestinians from whom land was stolen from are still alive! The Ohlone Indians whose land was stolen from them are no longer alive. And secondly, their descendants have been compensated for the land lost.

and before you say another of your garbage compering us to the nazi i suggest you will fly now to israel/palastine and see what really happens in here... and dont get yourself brainwashed from the website because reality is very different from the internet...
The truth can be gleaned from the internet due to eyewitness accounts. (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/diaries.shtml)
==================


And why i am calling you names , Ari sweiner ? Well , you called us , what thieves ? Killers , what else , gangsters ? You come to someone's house and starts to insult him , what do you think you will get back , idioto
I called those who stole the land, thieves. Those who murder, murderers. Those who are living in the illegal settlements and those who sponsor such illegal settlements are thieves. Who sponsors the settlements? The Israeli government! So they are thieves. They are State-thieves and a State sponsor of terrorism since the ultimate goal of their thievery is to terrorise all the Palestinians out of their homes.

[Javehn]

I believe the correct term is Palestinian. Not all Arabs act like the Palestinians. No, the only people the Israelis are generalizing here are the terrorists. Arabs are just as welcome in Israel as Jews or Christians are. Terrorists however, are not.

Naa , dude , let it go . I don't think he is able to do that separation . Just look at his comparing posts . He is not able to differ between single private case of someone , and the actions that almost like national doctrine . Or he is able , when it works for his point favor .

I agree about Arabs . Hell , one of my best friends is Arab(Yussuf) , and he is a hell smarter then some of the jews i know :) .

[Ars Moriendi]

Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....

Word. You are not alone ariweiner, continue with your excellent posts.

If your are speaking on christian behalf than read the bible!!!

I am a science student, an atheist and after death, I believe we are just plain dead. No gods or virgins. I have read the Bible several times as I have worked for the (christian) church for several years, so I know that book.

First, I support ariweiner as he is trying to look at the problem from another point of view than the usual far right angle.

Second, I did not use those lines because of religion, but I liked the last part: "and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done". And I think this is not only for the Isarael's, the same goes for the palestinians, the americans, the swedes, and so on.

[Javehn]

Because that you new in here , i will explain you something about Arieweiner . Soon you will not take him so seriously , because he tend to overreact very seriously to one side , competelly neglecting other .
I am good to take critic , more then welcome from member One that is Lebanonian in root , but Arieweiner posts are just plain old nonsence .

[ariweiner]

How often do you hear about incidents similar to the scenario you described? How often do suicide bombings happen? Compare.
There are plenty of such incidents happening all over the US. In addition to various massacres in schools perpetrated by young kids. But I was asking a rhetorical question since we will not judge Westerners by the actions of a few, why judge hundreds of millions of non-Westerners by the actions of a few? And this includes "Palestinian suicide bombers." How many such bombings have happened? 50? 100? So we will now judge hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by the actions of a 100? Come on..

[Ars Moriendi]

Comming from a Muslim (You are Muslim , right ?), that doesn't sounds so scary :) .


No, you might have to open your mind. I am from sweden and non-religious. There are other people than muslims that have the opinion that the Israel government is doing some bad stuff right now.

[ExtraT]

...


Why don't you do everybody a favor and finally shut the f*ck up, you nazi piece of ****?

[Javehn]

No, you might have to open your mind. I am from sweden and non-religious. There are other people than muslims that have the opinion that the Israel government is doing some bad stuff right now.


If you would read more carefully , you would understand that i adressed this to ariesweiner . I don't know nothing about you ,really , what made you think that i think you are Muslim ?
Read what i wrote again , Ariesweiner views are hardly balanced (they balanced to one side ) .

And trust me , i realised the Swedish part after couple of your posts :) .

[ariweiner]

If you would read more carefully , you would understand that i adressed this to ariesweiner
Actually, I also thought that you were addressing Ars Moriendi.

Ariesweiner views are hardly balanced (they balanced to one side )
Balanced to the side of truth and justice, yes.

[Javehn]

So , something about the article itself ? Some questions about the article anyone ?
It was posted for reason before someone hijacked it to "the side of truth and justice allahu akbar let's crash some planes and call it historical justice " .

[Ars Moriendi]

If you would read more carefully , you would understand that i adressed this to ariesweiner . I don't know nothing about you ,really , what made you think that i think you are Muslim ?
Read what i wrote again , Ariesweiner views are hardly balanced (they balanced to one side ) .

And trust me , i realised the Swedish part after couple of your posts :) .

Ok now I am confused :|
You quoted my message and called "someone" a muslim, so I just assumed you were talking to me.

Of course Ariesweiners views are not balanced, my opinions are not balanced, neither are yours, but he is trying to show you the "other" side. Instead of flaming him, you should read his messages and try to see the problem from his side of view. Thats whats democracy is all about, to let everyone share his/hers/its opinion. But democracy is not just the right to express yourself its the responsibility to listen to other peoples opinions.

[Javehn]

As i said , his views are way behind the other side , try to search for archives about his name sence you are new member here , and don't forget that I said , critic is welcome , but not from him .
Some of the articles he posted are beyond redicolous.

[ariweiner]

Some of the articles he posted are beyond redicolous.
Please give me an example of a "ridiculous" article that I posted.

[S'13]

But I was asking a rhetorical question since we will not judge Westerners by the actions of a few, why judge hundreds of millions of non-Westerners by the actions of a few? And this includes "Palestinian suicide bombers." How many such bombings have happened? 50? 100? So we will now judge hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by the actions of a 100? Come on..

When a majority of Palestinians support suicied bombings (68%) and belive the goal of the so called "Intifadah" is the destruction of Israel (51%), then that says something about their society.

BTW these results came from a survey conducted by Arabs.

[Fox2]

There are plenty of such incidents happening all over the US. In addition to various massacres in schools perpetrated by young kids. But I was asking a rhetorical question since we will not judge Westerners by the actions of a few, why judge hundreds of millions of non-Westerners by the actions of a few?

Well, my meaning was, how many follow the same MO? How many murderers commit their crime because they don't like the color of the victim's shirt? There is not much variation in the MO of a Palestinian suicide bomber. Different targets, perhaps, but same motives, same MO.


And this includes "Palestinian suicide bombers." How many such bombings have happened? 50? 100? So we will now judge hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by the actions of a 100? Come on..

I think you are underestimating the number of bombings, not to mention the amount of support within the Palestinian circles for the terrorists.



That may be the case for some, but many just left because, as mentioned previously, they thought the surrounding countries would quickly destroy Israel, and they could return anyway.
Give me some proof of this please. I have it from first hand sources(Palestinians who fled) that this was not the case.

My family fled from Jaffa because of Palestinian/Muslim threats of violence. Before that, my grandfather worked as a community leader, working to strengthen the Arab and Jewish relationship. In the course of my life I've met Palestinians, Israelis, Arabs, Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. I've been on both friendly and not-so-friendly terms with people from each and every group. My opinions and thoughts are derived from my experiences, nothing more, nothing less. I cannot offer any proof to you but my own experience. You can only offer the same to me, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, as it is obvious neither of us will budge from our views. ;)

Have a good one.

[Ars Moriendi]

and don't forget that I said , critic is welcome , but not from him .
Some of the articles he posted are beyond redicolous.

This is very interesting as his opinions (in this thread) are shared with the average student in sweden (from my experience). His opinions are more or less the same thing I will hear if I turn on the television and watch a documentary.

[ariweiner]

When a majority of Palestinians support suicied bombings (68%) and a belive the goal of the so called Intifadah is the destruction of Israel (51%), then that says something about their society.
BTW these results came from a survey conducted by Arabs.
This would be obvious even without a survey. How long can an entire people endure collective oppression. Especially since it is quite obvious that there is no political or peaceful solution with the only power influencing Israel being the US and the US goes out of it's way to deny every possible voice to the Palestinians, vetoing UN resolutions and the like. Most Palestinians are feeling "something MUST be done" and since suicide bombings are the only real things being done, they support this as an expression of what they feel. When there is a real peaceful solution, the support for suicide bombings will drop rapidly but currently there is no peaceful solution especially with the attitude that Israel is taking amid the continued building and expansion of illegal settlements, house demolitions, extra-judicial killings and the like.

My family fled from Jaffa because of Palestinian/Muslim threats of violence. Before that, my grandfather worked as a community leader The proof that I was asking for was about why Palestinians fled their lands. You said that it was due to an assumption that the neighboring countries would destroy Israel which I was disputing.

[bayul]

המממ.... אלוהים מה הייתי עושה לבן זונה הזה. נאצי מסריח...

agreed - these liberal bastards are all the same, he is just looking for another cause, no amount of reality and truth will change this fckers mind.
also i have nominated ariweiner for biggest douche in the universe and i think that tembel has a chance of winning!

[S'13]

[quote]
This would be obvious even without a survey. How long can an entire people endure collective oppression. Especially since it is quite obvious that there is no political or peaceful solution with the only power influencing Israel being the US and the US goes out of it's way to deny every possible voice to the Palestinians, vetoing UN resolutions and the like. Most Palestinians are feeling "something MUST be done" and since suicide bombings are the only real things being done, they support this as an expression of what they feel. When there is a real peaceful solution, the support for suicide bombings will drop rapidly but currently there is no peaceful solution especially with the attitude that Israel is taking amid the continued building and expansion of illegal settlements, house demolitions, extra-judicial killings and the like.


Did I read your post correctly?! Did you write: "no political or peaceful solution"?!

It seems as though you have taken denial up to new levels in order to maintain your suppourt of Palestinian terrorists.


What were the details of the Oslo Accords?

On September 13, 1993 representatives of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) signed the "Declaration of Principles On Interim Self-Government Arrangements", a document also known as the "Oslo Accords". They were signed at a Washington ceremony hosted by US President Bill Clinton on September 13, 1993, during which Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin ended decades as sworn enemies with an uneasy handshake. This agreement was the fruit of secret negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, represented by the PLO, following the Madrid Conference in 1991.

The Oslo Accords contain a set of mutually agreed-upon general principles regarding a five year interim period of Palestinian self-rule. So-called "permanent status issues" are deferred to later negotiations, to begin no later than the third year of the interim period. The permanent status negotiations were intended to lead to an agreement that would be implemented to take effect at the end of the interim period.

The main points of the Oslo Accords (or Declaration of Principles = DOP):

1) Transfer of Powers to the Palestinians:

The DOP features an agreement in principle regarding a transfer of power and responsibilities to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, so they may have control over their own affairs.


2) The DOP does not prejudge the Permanent Status:


The DOP specifically states that permanent status issues, such as Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements and borders are to be excluded from the interim arrangements and that the outcome of the permanent status talks should not be prejudged or preempted by the interim arrangements. During this period, the Israeli government retains sole responsibility for foreign affairs, defense and borders. Israel's position on Jerusalem remains unchanged. When the DOP was signed, Prime Minister Rabin stated that "Jerusalem is the ancient and eternal capital of the Jewish people." An undivided Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty, with religious freedom for all, is and remains a fundamental Israeli position.


3) Security remains an Israeli responsibility:

-In the DOP, Israel and the PLO agree that during the interim period, Israel will remain responsible for security along the international borders and the crossing points to Egypt and Jordan. Israel will also retain responsibility for and the overall security of Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza, the Israeli settlements in those areas, and freedom of movement on roads.
Implementation of the DOP was specified to involve the following phases:

-Gaza-Jericho: Self-rule in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area, including a withdrawal of Israeli forces from those areas (the "first redeployment"), is to serve as a first step in the implementation of the DOP. The details of the Gaza-Jericho aspect of the DOP were negotiated and concluded in an agreement signed in Cairo between Israel and the PLO on May 4, 1994.


-Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities: In the rest of the West Bank, five specific spheres -- education and culture, health, social welfare, direct taxation and tourism -- are to be transferred to Palestinian representatives through early empowerment. Additional spheres may be transferred as agreed by the sides. The DOP proposed that this transfer of powers take place immediately following the implementation of the Gaza-Jericho agreement.


-The Interim Agreement and Elections: A modalities agreement regarding the election of a Palestinian Council and a comprehensive Interim Agreement specifying the structure and powers of the Council will be negotiated. The Interim Agreement will detail the self-government arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza. Concurrent with the elections, Israeli forces are to be redeployed outside populated areas to specified locations. The Palestinian Council will have a strong police force in order to guarantee public order and internal security. Central to the DOP are two economic annexes which outline economic cooperation between Israel and the Palestinians, both bilaterally and in the multilateral context.


-The Permanent Status: Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the permanent status will commence as soon as possible but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period (May 1996). These talks will determine the nature of the final settlement between the two sides. It is understood that these negotiations will cover remaining issues including Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest. Under the DOP, the permanent status will take effect 5 years after the implementation of the Gaza-Jericho agreement, namely May 1999

A letter on key issues of the PLO and Israel, addressed to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, was signed by Yasser Arafat on September 9, 1993. The letter says specifically that:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.


The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338


The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process... all outstanding issues ... will be resolved through negotiations


... the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators


... those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid


... the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Rabin gave a letter in exchange to Arafat, also dated September 9, saying:

... Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process"

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_oslo_accords.php


What took place at Camp David Summit in 2000?

The timeline of the 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum called for final status negotiations to be completed by September 13, 2000. Talks during late 1999 and the first half of 2000 led to President Clinton's invitation to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat for a summit at Camp David, Maryland to be convened July 11, 2000.

Barak requested that Clinton call the meeting, feeling that it was important to show that Israel was committed to the Peace Process and that Israel was ready to make the necessary concessions. Barak also felt that the summit was the best place for this, rather than a public exchange of ideas that might be politically hard to constrain. The objective of the summit was to make enough progress on the final status issues so that an agreement could be put together by the September target date.

The meetings were difficult and almost ended prematurely, but President Clinton kept the parties at the negotiating table. The final status issues were the most difficult to resolve: Jerusalem, security, borders and refugees. Sessions lasted late into the nights. Under intense pressure from President Clinton, in an effort to reach a final agreement, and with promises of American support and security guarantees, Prime Minister Barak offered the most substantial concessions and far reaching proposals, going beyond all the long-standing Israeli "red lines", especially as regards Jerusalem. The US team called Barak "courageous" for these offers. When these terms were later revealed in Israel, people were stunned at the extent of the concessions Barak offered and it is unclear whether the Israeli public were prepared to support the deal. However they were never given the opportunity to endorse or reject the proposals; Arafat rejected them out of hand.

The details were not disclosed formally, but according to media reports Barak's offer included:

Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967
In return Arafat had to declare the "end of conflict" and agree that no further claims on Israel could be made in the future. Despite the considerable concessions by Israel, Arafat chose not to negotiate, not to make a counter-offer but to just walk out. This was typical of the Palestinian leader's style: offer nothing, just say no and wait for more concessions. In fact, the Palestinian negotiating team did make concessions during the negotiating process, but Arafat himself never agreed. It was not the specific terms that caused the summit to collapse, but rather the lack of a counterproposal. In addition, Arafat continued to insist on the Palestinian demand for a "right of return" of refugees to Israel, a demand that Israel cannot accept under any peace plan since it would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

The summit ended on July 25, without an agreement being reached. At its conclusion, a Trilateral Statement was issued defining the agreed principles to guide future negotiations. An optimistic summary of the event would be that difficult issues were attacked for the first time and progress was made. But, what really happened at Camp David is that Barak offered astounding compromises in an effort to close a deal while Arafat stuck to the traditional Palestinian positions. The Israelis and Palestinians both lost faith in the process: if there is no deal in this favorable environment, when could there be?

After the close of the meeting, Barak said:

Israel was ready to reach agreement at a painful price but not at any price.

Arafat made no major statement before leaving the United States, because anything he would say would force him to disagree with Clinton’s assessment that Arafat was at fault for the summit's failure. In the following weeks, the Palestinians, having lost patience with the diplomatic approach, launched the al-Aqsa intifada (September 2000).

During the fall of 2000, with the al-Aqsa intifada raging, there were several more attempts to follow-up on the Camp David negotiations, in Washington and Taba, Egypt in January 2001. Israeli and Palestinian negotiators met again in Washington, but there was no progress for the same reason: Arafat and his team said no to the US-brokered Israeli proposals and had no proposals of their own to offer.

President Clinton, and others who participated, put the blame for the failure of hte talks squarely on Arafat and the Palestinian negotiators. In 2001, Clinton told guests at a party at the Manhattan apartment of former UN ambassador Richard Holbrooke that Arafat called to bid him farewell three days before he left office. "You are a great man," Arafat said. "The hell I am," Clinton said he responded. "I'm a colossal failure, and you made me one."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php

Before the Palestinians started their campaign of terror, they had self-rule and were the closest they ever were to getting a state of their own, but just like every opportunity handed to them... Well today we see the results.

[M_S]

As horrific as this is, it is NOTHING compared to the day in day out oppression perpetrated by Israel and it's occupation. The Israeli's can at least be grateful for the fact that their homes which they saved up for 30, 40, 50 years to build are not being demolished. They cannot travel a few miles due to roadblocks manned by sadists. Their women are not giving birth at checkpoints in cars because these same sadists don't let them pass. Their grandmothers, aunts and kids who need emergency medical attention aren't dying at checkpoints which are in full view of the hospital but occupational soldier sadists aren't letting them through. They are not being shot at by rabid hate-filled settlers who come from halfway round the world to delight in their suffering and steal more land. They don't have their fields and crops and livelihood systematically uprooted day after day after day. Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....



Well said, its funny how the Pro-israelis always try to compare one wrong doing from their side with suicide bombings thus trying to make israel look like the victim :roll:

Its just hilarious when jews say that "israel is our land" those who moved to europe/afrika and changed in their ethniticy shouldn't even be considered as ethnic jew, they are jews in religion, yes, but not ethnically "gods people". And even "real" jews have no right to return just becuase they are jews, its just unlogical considering that most ethnic groups around the world moved from one place to the other, were in time should we put a line?...who lived in israel before the jews?.... :roll:

A big part of the terrorism in the middle east is israels fault, israel are creating terrorism right now.....

This is not a flame war post, give logical answers back.

[AirZone]

As horrific as this is, it is NOTHING compared to the day in day out oppression perpetrated by Israel and it's occupation. The Israeli's can at least be grateful for the fact that their homes which they saved up for 30, 40, 50 years to build are not being demolished. They cannot travel a few miles due to roadblocks manned by sadists. Their women are not giving birth at checkpoints in cars because these same sadists don't let them pass. Their grandmothers, aunts and kids who need emergency medical attention aren't dying at checkpoints which are in full view of the hospital but occupational soldier sadists aren't letting them through. They are not being shot at by rabid hate-filled settlers who come from halfway round the world to delight in their suffering and steal more land. They don't have their fields and crops and livelihood systematically uprooted day after day after day. Yes, the Israeli's should be grateful that they haven't been punished by God yet for all these injustices and that there is still time to rectify the wrongs done....



Well said, its funny how the Pro-israelis always try to compare one wrong doing from their side with suicide bombings thus trying to make israel look like the victim :roll:

Its just hilarious when jews say that "israel is our land" those who moved to europe/afrika and changed in their ethniticy shouldn't even be considered as ethnic jew, they are jews in religion, yes, but not ethnically "gods people". And even "real" jews have no right to return just becuase they are jews, its just unlogical considering that most ethnic groups around the world moved from one place to the other, were in time should we put a line?...who lived in israel before the jews?.... :roll:

A big part of the terrorism in the middle east is israels fault, israel are creating terrorism right now.....

This is not a flame war post, give logical answers back.

Uhhh....NO!

kthxbye

(btw - we stopped the terrorism.. BOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA so go annoy some one else)

[Moledet]

בבקשה, אבל בבקשה לא להגיב, לשכנע שונאים לאהוב אותנו זה בלתי אפשרי, הם מיעוט מגעיל וחבל על הזמן של כולנו.
Please, brothers do not respond to this people hate provoking messages, you can't make a hater your friend, it's just a waste of time.

[AirZone]

בבקשה, אבל בבקשה לא להגיב, לשכנע שונאים לאהוב אותנו זה בלתי אפשרי, הם מיעוט מגעיל וחבל על הזמן של כולנו.
Please, brothers do not respond to this people hate provoking messages, you can't make a hater your friend, it's just a waste of time.

דוגרי... לנאצים האלה זה בסדר להשטיח את אפגניסטן ועיראק
או לחסל שבטים שלמים של אידיאנים אבל להגן על עצמנו זה לא טוב
ולמה ? כי אנחנו יהודים..

[M_S]

Wow, ofcourse you put forward the anti-semite card, i hate no one, but you seem to feel different or what? :roll:

Ignorance is the best cure against logic eh?

[S'13]

Well said, its funny how the Pro-israelis always try to compare one wrong doing from their side with suicide bombings thus trying to make israel look like the victim :roll:


Israel, not like the Palestinians, has the moral high ground since it doesn't deliberately targets civilians. And don't try to compare an army fighting terrorists in an urban setting in which civilians can be harmed very easily to a terrorist who enters a restaurant with explosives strpped to his body and blows himself up in order to kill as many Jews as possible.


Its just hilarious when jews say that "israel is our land" those who moved to europe/afrika and changed in their ethniticy shouldn't even be considered as ethnic jew, they are jews in religion, yes, but not ethnically "gods people". And even "real" jews have no right to return just becuase they are jews, its just unlogical considering that most ethnic groups around the world moved from one place to the other, were in time should we put a line?...who lived in israel before the jews?....

I don't have the energy to go on and an on about this (even though I could), so i will refer to this in one sentence.

The existence of Israel as a Jewish state is an undeniable fact so the dispute over weather Israel has a right to exsist isn't relevant (your 56 years late).


A big part of the terrorism in the middle east is israels fault, israel are creating terrorism right now.....

Terrorist wish to destroy Israel so it's Israel's fault because it exsists... Very logical. :roll:

You don't seem take any notice of the fact that the routes of Islamic-terrorsm were planted long before Israel was established and that what drives most terrorists is their hatred towards western influence in the Middle-East, which is one of the main reasons they hate Israel, since it's a western democracy.

[M_S]

Israel, not like the Palestinians, has the moral high ground since it doesn't deliberately targets civilians. And don't try to compare an army fighting terrorists in an urban setting in which civilians can be harmed very easily to a person who enters a restaurant with explosives strpped to his body an blows himself up in order to kill as many Jews as possible.

Israel have no moral high ground due to the fact that they are the ones with the total control, and still doing the things airweiner mentioned


I don't have the energy to go on and an on about this (even though I could), so i will refer to this in one sentence.

The existence of Israel as a Jewish state is an undeniable fact so the dispute over weather Israel has a right to exsist isn't relevant (your 56 years late).


Thats one pathetic answer



Terrorist wish to destroy Israel so it's Israel's fault because it exsists... Very logical. :roll:

You don't seem take any notice of the fact that the routes of Islamic-terrorsm were planted long before Israel was established and that what drives most terrorists is their hatred towards western influence in the Middle-East, which is one of the main reasons they hate Israel, since it's a western democracy

The wish to destroy israel by the terrorists is to a large part due to the israeli treatment of the palestinian people

[Fox2]

The proof that I was asking for was about why Palestinians fled their lands. You said that it was due to an assumption that the neighboring countries would destroy Israel which I was disputing.

Sorry, I should've clarified. The only proof I have is personal, first-hand experience and accounts from those I've met, and the things I've seen when in the country myself. I obviously can't give hard evidence, such things are impossible outside of seeing it for yourself. Essentially, I am saying, you will believe what you will believe, and I will believe what I will believe. Neither of us is going to take each other's word for proof, evidence, or truth. So, let's just leave it at that. ;)

[Zarathustra]

http://reborn-by-design.com/if-20.jpg

:) :) :)

[AirZone]

Israel have no moral high ground due to the fact that they are the ones with the total control, and still doing the things airweiner mentioned
So you say we should just sit and wait for the **** to hit the fan ? are you sane or some thing? :|





The wish to destroy israel by the terrorists is to a large part due to the israeli treatment of the palestinian people And again you show us your lack of knowledge...or you are just naive

[M_S]

So you say we should just sit and wait for the **** to hit the fan ? are you sane or some thing? :|

I say that its ovious that israel is terrorising the palestinan people




And again you show us your lack of knowledge...or you are just naive

So you mean that they ONLY want to kill you because you are jews?...that they are natural born nazis? who is naive? :roll:

[AirZone]

I say that its ovious that israel is terrorising the palestinan people
Mabye...but it stopped the death of Israeli citizens (Arbs/Jews) but again did we kill/shot civilans for porpuse or only because its war there? and we are doing some thing the palastine police should do.


So you mean that they ONLY want to kill you because you are jews?...that they are natural born nazis? who is naive? :roll: no, because we are zionists... because they studied from day 1 we are evil and we dont want peace... that we stole the land (check pervious posts about Israel history and see how much land we bought and made it better...they lost their land in a war their lost, people who stayed didnt lose any house/area and they live VERY good with full democratic rights than any other arb in the muslim world) and yeah becuase we are jews (check the Koran about the place where it talks about jews/christians)

[Moledet]

So you say we should just sit and wait for the **** to hit the fan ? are you sane or some thing? :|

I say that its ovious that israel is terrorising the palestinan people

I say that US killed at least 5,500 Iraqi civilians intentionaly, prove that I'm wrong.
It's just a stupied argument, we explain things, we show facts but you stay in your own biased opinion.

[ExtraT]

....



And what do ya know, yet another addition to The Local Zoo!

Really, if you keep up with this we'll run out of cages!

[M_S]

....



And what do ya know, yet another addition to The Local Zoo!

Really, if you keep up with this we'll run out of cages!

I know of a rooster that is out of its cage rofl

[Sayeret]

M_S your the one is is making people accuse you of anti-semitism. So maybe you should watch what you say because even if you don't mean it to be anti-semitic it might be. Your saying that your just being called anti-semitic because your arguing with Jews but not even ariweiner was accused of being one.

[SeanAshi]

I say that its ovious that israel is terrorising the palestinan people The Palestinians are suffering because of a incompetent and impotent Palestinian Authority.

[S'13]

Israel have no moral high ground due to the fact that they are the ones with the total control, and still doing the things airweiner mentioned


Total control? :lol: If we had total control we wouldn't be in this mess. And as I wrote before, Israel does not harm civilians deliberately. On the other hand the Palestinians have made harmig civilians a strategy.


Thats one pathetic answer

Why, because it's true and that annoys you :)

At least explain why it's pathetic, for now the only thing that looks pathetic on this thread is you.


The wish to destroy israel by the terrorists is to a large part due to the israeli treatment of the palestinian people

Treatment of the Palestinian people? Strange, since Palestinian terrorism has existed long before Israel was even born and the latest campaign of terror known as the "Intifadah" came after a period in which the Palestinians had self-rule and were about to have a state of their own.

[M_S]

Total control? :lol: If we had total control we wouldn't be in this mess. And as I wrote before, Israel does not harm civilians deliberately. On the other hand the Palestinians have made harmig civilians a strategy.

Well you ARE harming the palestinian people both directly by mass punishments and indirectly by roadblocks and as airweiner put it, sadistic soldiers letting people suffer at roadblocks



Why, because it's true and that annoys you :)

At least explain why it's pathetic, for now the only thing that looks pathetic on this thread is you.


Well "S'13" it was a pathetic answer because it was no answer at all ;)
Only a statement with no explenations.



Treatment of the Palestinian people? Strange, since Palestinian terrorism has existed long before Israel was even born and the latest campaign of terror known as the "Intifadah" came after a period in which the Palestinians had self-rule and were about to have a state of their own.

Well if you haven't noticed i said a big Part of the terrorism excists due to israels treatment of the palestinian people, trying to say that they want you dead just because you are a jew is hilarious :cantbeli:

[M_S]

I say that its ovious that israel is terrorising the palestinan people The Palestinians are suffering because of a incompetent and impotent Palestinian Authority.

The authority is incompetent and impotent, as you put it, because it has no real power, arafat who is considered the president by the palestinian authority is locked up...

But i also think that the arab authority is traditionally corrupt and traditionally not suited for democrasy.

Both these factors makes the palestinian authority incompetent..

[AirZone]

Well you ARE harming the palestinian people both directly by mass punishments and indirectly by roadblocks and as airweiner put it, sadistic soldiers letting people suffer at roadblocks You may dont know but there is Israeli civilians observers that is recording everything and try to give the palastines any help they can and if stopping an ambulance with a pregnant woman because the terrorists used couple of times ambulances to transfer weapons is sadistic, well...theres reality and theres "good story" for the media :roll:
and reality means "I stop an ambulance so next day I wont hear about a terrorist act that killed some one I know"
but of course you feed your info from the beloved media..



Well if you haven't noticed i said a big Part of the terrorism excists due to israels treatment of the palestinian people, trying to say that they want you dead just because you are a jew is hilarious :cantbeli: Naaa it just shows how ignorant you are and how you have lack of knowledge about the Israeli-Palastine conflict that started years before we even declared Israel as a country...there are some good posts about this conflict in the forum i suggest you should run a search.

Oh and it also shows how well you "know" the "arabic" mentality and their way of life.. :|

[M_S]

M_S your the one is is making people accuse you of anti-semitism. So maybe you should watch what you say because even if you don't mean it to be anti-semitic it might be. Your saying that your just being called anti-semitic because your arguing with Jews but not even ariweiner was accused of being one.


It should be enough with me saying that im not antisemetic.
If people finds it comfertable to first accuse me for being antisemetic and afterwards put forward loose arguments then what are you supposed to think about such people?....i think of them as people with no will to put forward good arguements, or maybe people with no good arguements.

[M_S]

You may dont know but there is Israeli civilians observers that is recording everything and try to give the palastines any help they can and if stopping an ambulance with a pregnant woman because the terrorists used couple of times ambulances to transfer weapons is sadistic, well...theres reality and theres "good story" for the media :roll:
and reality means "I stop an ambulance so next day I wont hear about a terrorist act that killed some one I know"
but of course you feed your info from the beloved media..


You have the military power there, its your duty to make sure no civilians suffer, the palestinians authority is a joke, they have no real power thanks to terrorist organisations such as hamas and israelis incursions


Naaa it just shows how ignorant you are and how you have lack of knowledge about the Israeli-Palastine conflict that started years before we even declared Israel as a country...there are some good posts about this conflict in the forum i suggest you should run a search.

Oh and it also shows how well you "know" the "arabic" mentality and their way of life.. :|

You can shout all "ignorant" you want, put forward your intellectual arguements then :roll:

And i dont have to know about arab mentality to have my Own thoughts about that conflict.

[Javehn]

You know something ?
Your opinion do something to us . They make me act the way you bull****ing . In millitary days of mine many people risked their lifes just not to harm civilians . Just to make them feel a little better about us . Just to make them understand we are doing our job and nothing more , we don't take any special enjoyment out of it . The purity of arms .
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16708&highlight=purity
One brigade commander was shot dead by sniper trying to evacuate kids from under fire . I was shot ut myself when a Palestinian Ambulance is in very close proximity to me . Soldier that went to secort old women for the food got shot . Restrictions was eased to make Palestinian life easier , and they used it to shoot my good friend . In a working zone where Israel gives them food and work . They used kids and women to pass explosives , because they knew we will not check kids and women . Then they used Ambulances because we started to check those . Heard about expression "Attitude causes attitude ? " Where in sane world it heard that they are using our good qualities against us , and then people like you have a problems with it ? Then you write about soldiers that mistreated bad ??? Offcorse they would do that , how one can be sane working in such conditions , when people try to take advantage on your qualities against you ?
6 years ago passing checkpoint would take no more then 20 second (Yes , i also did it , exactly the way that Palestinians did it , when my family drove from Jerusalem to my city we were checked as well in checkpoint on 60 road ) . Today it takes more then 5 minutes . And you have the insulence to ask why ?


I am reading some of the remarks , and i am starting to think . "**** it !!! Why should we try to act morally , when people in the world don't give a **** about it . Why bother ? Why let our soldiers get killed , when people do't give a **** about our own suffery . No one gives a **** about it . So we will . Why not to go and rampage now , and level every Palestinian town to the ground ? It's not going to change what Arieweiner and his gang will think about us " . It surtainly will not change any attitude in the world about us , sence i have trouble belliving that people like you will get anything in their lifes ;) , except perhaps being 5 stars generals on Militaryphotos forum .

Soldiers published their feelings in order that the attitude will get better , to show Israeli people the suffery of Palestinians . You know what you do , M_S , Ariesweiner , and all the gang ?? You make me say " **** it . I don't care about their suffery . No one in the world care " . Why i should take any moral high ground then , if in your eyes it worth less then dirt ?
Don't worry , i will keep my moral to myself , because unlike you , militaryphotos generals i have been on that war , and i know who am I from it . So I will remain who I am , and many people like me , because our self moral is what counts , and not your crocodile fake tears . I don't even know how much you really care .
Infact , i am shure 200 percent i care more about them then all of you . So , discust it good amongst yourself , don't forget to bring your fake crocodile tears from time to time .
If i am not mistaken some of you just do it because of their overall bellieves like Anti globalists , pacifists , liberals , i don't know who you are (or just college students with problem to everything on the world ) . You really have no interest in it , except of that fact . There will be a day when me and Muhamad from Nablus will spit on people like you together .

יאללה , מספיק , חלאס , באמת גמרנו עם זה חברה . בוא לא נבזבז את הזמן שלנו עליהם . פשוט תכתבו איזה נאום יפה דפקתי :) , ובוא נגמור עם זה .

[AirZone]

You know something ?
Your opinion do something to us . They make me act the way you bull****ing . In millitary days of mine many people risked their lifes just not to harm civilians . Just to make them feel a little better about us . Just to make them understand we are doing our job and nothing more , we don't take any special enjoyment out of it . The purity of arms .
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16708&highlight=purity
One brigade commander was shot dead by sniper trying to evacuate kids from under fire . I was shot ut myself when a Palestinian Ambulance is in very close proximity to me . Soldier that went to secort old women for the food got shot . Restrictions was eased to make Palestinian life easier , and they used it to shoot my good friend . In a working zone where Israel gives them food and work . They used kids and women to pass explosives , because they knew we will not check kids and women . Then they used Ambulances because we started to check those . Heard about expression "Attitude causes attitude ? " Where in sane world it heard that they are using our good qualities against us , and then people like you have a problems with it ? Then you write about soldiers that mistreated bad ??? Offcorse they would do that , how one can be sane working in such conditions , when people try to take advantage on your qualities against you ?
6 years ago passing checkpoint would take no more then 20 second (Yes , i also did it , exactly the way that Palestinians did it , when my family drove from Jerusalem to my city we were checked as well in checkpoint on 60 road ) . Today it takes more then 5 minutes . And you have the insulence to ask why ?


I am reading some of the remarks , and i am starting to think . "f*** it !!! Why should we try to act morally , when people in the world don't give a f*** about it . Why bother ? Why let our soldiers get killed , when people do't give a f*** about our own suffery . No one gives a f*** about it . So we will . Why not to go and rampage now , and level every Palestinian town to the ground ? It's not going to change what Arieweiner and his gang will think about us " . It surtainly will not change any attitude in the world about us , sence i have trouble belliving that people like you will get anything in their lifes ;) , except perhaps being 5 stars generals on Militaryphotos forum .

Soldiers published their feelings in order that the attitude will get better , to show Israeli people the suffery of Palestinians . You know what you do , M_S , Ariesweiner , and all the gang ?? You make me say " f*** it . I don't care about their suffery . No one in the world care " . Why i should take any moral high ground then , if in your eyes it worth less then dirt ?
Don't worry , i will keep my moral to myself , because unlike you , militaryphotos generals i have been on that war , and i know who am I from it . So I will remain who I am , and many people like me , because our self moral is what counts , and not your crocodile fake tears . I don't even know how much you really care .
Infact , i am shure 200 percent i care more about them then all of you . So , discust it good amongst yourself , don't forget to bring your fake crocodile tears from time to time .
If i am not mistaken some of you just do it because of their overall bellieves like Anti globalists , pacifists , liberals , i don't know who you are (or just college students with problem to everything on the world ) . You really have no interest in it , except of that fact . There will be a day when me and Muhamad from Nablus will spit on people like you together .

יאללה , מספיק , חלאס , באמת גמרנו עם זה חברה . בוא לא נבזבז את הזמן שלנו עליהם . פשוט תכתבו איזה נאום יפה דפקתי :) , ובוא נגמור עם זה .

כפרה הבאת לי דמעות חחחח... אחלה בחלה של נאום
Javehn>0wnz j00 4LL woot

יאללה בגרות באזרחות מחר סעמק =\

[S'13]

Well you ARE harming the palestinian people both directly by mass punishments and indirectly by roadblocks


Could you give me examples of the so called "mass punishments". As for the roadblocks, these are one of the only ways we can protect ourselves from suicied bombers who murder women and children. There woudn't be any roadblocks if it hadn't been for Palestinian terrorsm in the first place.


Well "S'13" it was a pathetic answer because it was no answer at all
Only a statement with no explenations.

Your argumentation isn't relevant. Israel has existed for over 56 years as a Jewish state and the debate over weather it has a right to exist does not matter. What's so hard to understand?


Well if you haven't noticed i said a big Part of the terrorism excists due to israels treatment of the palestinian people,

Treatment of the Palestinian isn't even a big part of why Palestinian terrorism exists. The majority of Palestinians belive that the goal of the "Intifadah" terror camping is the destruction of Israel, are you now going to argue with Palestinian people over this :cantbeli: :lol:


trying to say that they want you dead just because you are a jew is hilarious

I wonder if your whole family was murderd in a suicied bombing you would think of it to be hilarious... :roll:

Here is a littile something which explains the goals of Hamas.


The Genocidal Hamas Charter

September 26, 2002, 9:05 a.m

By David G. Littman

Hamas claims that the jihadist bombing that killed and wounded over 50 civilians in Tel Aviv on September 19 was carried out by its Izzedine al-Qassem Brigades.

Two years ago, an alliance was forged between Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority and Hamas that resulted in the freeing of their convicted terrorists. This tacit alliance still exists, and could prove fatal for the future of both the Palestinian Authority and the "peace process."


The 1988 Hamas charter (an acronym for "Islamic Resistance Movement" in Arabic) is both political and genocidal — yet the United Nations has never denounced it. It claims to be a wing of the International Muslim Brotherhood, an organization founded in Egypt in 1922. Hamas is against any Middle East peace process: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavors" (Article 13).

And then there is the Hamas slogan, which has inspired countless jihadist bombers: "Allah is its goal, The Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Charter, jihad its path, and death for the cause of Allah its most sublime belief" (Article 8).

Hamas is committed to continuing jihad against "the Jews" until Allah's victory is implemented. The land of Palestine, it affirms, must be cleansed from their impurity and viciousness. Muslims are obligated by order of the Prophet to fight and kill the Jews wherever they find them. This call to genocide is justified by a hadith which concludes article 7 of the charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to implement Allah's promise, whatever time that may take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until the Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them), until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! Oh Abdullah!, there is a Jew behind me, come on and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

This controversial hadith — related by the eminent compiler al-Bukhari in the 9th century — has since become a commonplace belief among Islamists. For example: On April 12, 2002, the Palestinian Authority's Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi delivered a Friday sermon at the Sheikh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on Palestinian Authority television. Madhi quoted from this hadith — including the curious reference to the "Jewish" Gharqad tree — and then stated: "We believe in this hadith. We are convinced also that this hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the lands... 'from the ocean to the ocean...'"

Sheikh Madhi concluded his sermon with: "Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heaven... Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day... Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters... Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land... Oh Allah, forgive our sins..." (Credit to <a href=www.memri.org>MEMRI</a> for the translation.)

Another characteristic of the Hamas charter is the frequent references it makes to conspiracy theories, in order that adepts might better understand events in the dar al-harb (region of war), as distinct from the dar al-Islam (region of Islam). On "Jews" and "Zionists" — called "the enemies" — the charter follows in Hitler's footsteps by appealing to the crudest of forgeries (rightly called a Warrant for Genocide by Norman Cohn): "Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion ... The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates..." Article 22 states that "the enemies" have long since taken over the world's financial centers, controlling the world's media: "agencies, press, broadcasting, publications, etc.... With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions, and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests." Indeed, "they" have been stirring up revolutions since the one in France in 1789 — including Communist revolutions.

This fixation continues:

They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they that instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without them having their finger in it.

Unlike speeches and newspaper articles, which may change with the winds, a written charter is an essential, binding document. Hitler understood this when he wrote in the preface to Mein Kampf ("My Struggle"): "The unity and uniformity of a doctrine can only be safeguarded if it has been fixed forever in a written text." After his release from an Israeli prison and return to Gaza in October 1997, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder and spiritual head of Hamas, declared that Israel must "disappear from the map." He added: "We have an aim and an enemy, and we shall continue our jihad against the enemy. A nation without a jihad is a nation without a purpose." The root meaning of jihad means "struggle."

After the first female jihadist bombing, by 28-year-old Wafa Idris on January 27, 2002, Sheikh Yassin insisted that women were not needed as "martyr" bombers because there were plenty of male candidates. He further suggested that a female combatant, or a candidate for martyrdom, should be accompanied by a man — either her husband, or a member of her family — if the task required that she be absent for longer than a day and a night.

In December 1998, in the presence of President Clinton (who came to Gaza to attend the event), the PLO's national charter was amended at a special session of its national congress. Should the Palestinian Authority continue its alliance with Hamas — and if Hamas refuses to scrap its genocidal charter and renounce the ideology of jihad-war — there can be no possibility of serious progress toward a Middle East peace, with two states coexisting side by side.

There are voices of reason in the Middle East working for secular goals to be achieved through compromise and cooperation. It will be hard enough to strive for the creation of stable, democratic states in the Middle East even without widespread conspiracy theories and the Hamas genocidal charter — a charter denounced neither by Muslim spiritual and political leaders nor by the United Nations.

— David G. Littman is a historian and an NGO representative of the Association for World Education to the United Nations in Geneva, where he has been active on many human-rights issues since 1986.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-littman092602.asp

[M_S]

You know something ?
Your opinion do something to us . They make me act the way you bull****ing . In millitary days of mine many people risked their lifes just not to harm civilians . Just to make them feel a little better about us . Just to make them understand we are doing our job and nothing more , we don't take any special enjoyment out of it . The purity of arms .
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16708&highlight=purity
One brigade commander was shot dead by sniper trying to evacuate kids from under fire . I was shot ut myself when a Palestinian Ambulance is in very close proximity to me . Soldier that went to secort old women for the food got shot . Restrictions was eased to make Palestinian life easier , and they used it to shoot my good friend . In a working zone where Israel gives them food and work . They used kids and women to pass explosives , because they knew we will not check kids and women . Then they used Ambulances because we started to check those . Heard about expression "Attitude causes attitude ? " Where in sane world it heard that they are using our good qualities against us , and then people like you have a problems with it ? Then you write about soldiers that mistreated bad ??? Offcorse they would do that , how one can be sane working in such conditions , when people try to take advantage on your qualities against you ?
6 years ago passing checkpoint would take no more then 20 second (Yes , i also did it , exactly the way that Palestinians did it , when my family drove from Jerusalem to my city we were checked as well in checkpoint on 60 road ) . Today it takes more then 5 minutes . And you have the insulence to ask why ?


I am reading some of the remarks , and i am starting to think . "f*** it !!! Why should we try to act morally , when people in the world don't give a f*** about it . Why bother ? Why let our soldiers get killed , when people do't give a f*** about our own suffery . No one gives a f*** about it . So we will . Why not to go and rampage now , and level every Palestinian town to the ground ? It's not going to change what Arieweiner and his gang will think about us " . It surtainly will not change any attitude in the world about us , sence i have trouble belliving that people like you will get anything in their lifes ;) , except perhaps being 5 stars generals on Militaryphotos forum .

Soldiers published their feelings in order that the attitude will get better , to show Israeli people the suffery of Palestinians . You know what you do , M_S , Ariesweiner , and all the gang ?? You make me say " f*** it . I don't care about their suffery . No one in the world care " . Why i should take any moral high ground then , if in your eyes it worth less then dirt ?
Don't worry , i will keep my moral to myself , because unlike you , militaryphotos generals i have been on that war , and i know who am I from it . So I will remain who I am , and many people like me , because our self moral is what counts , and not your crocodile fake tears . I don't even know how much you really care .
Infact , i am shure 200 percent i care more about them then all of you . So , discust it good amongst yourself , don't forget to bring your fake crocodile tears from time to time .
If i am not mistaken some of you just do it because of their overall bellieves like Anti globalists , pacifists , liberals , i don't know who you are (or just college students with problem to everything on the world ) . You really have no interest in it , except of that fact . There will be a day when me and Muhamad from Nablus will spit on people like you together .

יאללה , מספיק , חלאס , באמת גמרנו עם זה חברה . בוא לא נבזבז את הזמן שלנו עליהם . פשוט תכתבו איזה נאום יפה דפקתי :) , ובוא נגמור עם זה .


Look there are good and bad people all over the world, though i havent seen any noble act done by israeli soldeiers, i do belive they excist. But in order to see how sick the situation is in israel look at the palestinian towns and areas, they are warzones, most people live under the poverty line, they are beeing terrorised. If you claim the moral high ground and if you dont wanna get accused for beeing sadistic and cruel than you should do something about it, you have the power, do something. You are destroying everything palestinian with no consience, and by "you" i mean the israeli state.

[AirZone]

You know something ?
Your opinion do something to us . They make me act the way you bull****ing . In millitary days of mine many people risked their lifes just not to harm civilians . Just to make them feel a little better about us . Just to make them understand we are doing our job and nothing more , we don't take any special enjoyment out of it . The purity of arms .
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16708&highlight=purity
One brigade commander was shot dead by sniper trying to evacuate kids from under fire . I was shot ut myself when a Palestinian Ambulance is in very close proximity to me . Soldier that went to secort old women for the food got shot . Restrictions was eased to make Palestinian life easier , and they used it to shoot my good friend . In a working zone where Israel gives them food and work . They used kids and women to pass explosives , because they knew we will not check kids and women . Then they used Ambulances because we started to check those . Heard about expression "Attitude causes attitude ? " Where in sane world it heard that they are using our good qualities against us , and then people like you have a problems with it ? Then you write about soldiers that mistreated bad ??? Offcorse they would do that , how one can be sane working in such conditions , when people try to take advantage on your qualities against you ?
6 years ago passing checkpoint would take no more then 20 second (Yes , i also did it , exactly the way that Palestinians did it , when my family drove from Jerusalem to my city we were checked as well in checkpoint on 60 road ) . Today it takes more then 5 minutes . And you have the insulence to ask why ?


I am reading some of the remarks , and i am starting to think . "f*** it !!! Why should we try to act morally , when people in the world don't give a f*** about it . Why bother ? Why let our soldiers get killed , when people do't give a f*** about our own suffery . No one gives a f*** about it . So we will . Why not to go and rampage now , and level every Palestinian town to the ground ? It's not going to change what Arieweiner and his gang will think about us " . It surtainly will not change any attitude in the world about us , sence i have trouble belliving that people like you will get anything in their lifes ;) , except perhaps being 5 stars generals on Militaryphotos forum .

Soldiers published their feelings in order that the attitude will get better , to show Israeli people the suffery of Palestinians . You know what you do , M_S , Ariesweiner , and all the gang ?? You make me say " f*** it . I don't care about their suffery . No one in the world care " . Why i should take any moral high ground then , if in your eyes it worth less then dirt ?
Don't worry , i will keep my moral to myself , because unlike you , militaryphotos generals i have been on that war , and i know who am I from it . So I will remain who I am , and many people like me , because our self moral is what counts , and not your crocodile fake tears . I don't even know how much you really care .
Infact , i am shure 200 percent i care more about them then all of you . So , discust it good amongst yourself , don't forget to bring your fake crocodile tears from time to time .
If i am not mistaken some of you just do it because of their overall bellieves like Anti globalists , pacifists , liberals , i don't know who you are (or just college students with problem to everything on the world ) . You really have no interest in it , except of that fact . There will be a day when me and Muhamad from Nablus will spit on people like you together .

יאללה , מספיק , חלאס , באמת גמרנו עם זה חברה . בוא לא נבזבז את הזמן שלנו עליהם . פשוט תכתבו איזה נאום יפה דפקתי :) , ובוא נגמור עם זה .


Look there are good and bad people all over the world, though i havent seen any noble act done by israeli soldeiers, i do belive they excist. But in order to see how sick the situation is in israel look at the palestinian towns and areas, they are warzones, most people live under the poverty line, they are beeing terrorised. If you claim the moral high ground and if you dont wanna get accused for beeing sadistic and cruel than you should do something about it, you have the power, do something. You are destroying everything palestinian with no consience, and by "you" i mean the israeli state. You dont see becuase you look in the wrong places... thats all :roll:

[M_S]

Could you give me examples of the so called "mass punishments". As for the roadblocks, these are one of the only ways we can protect ourselves from suicied bombers who murder women and children. There woudn't be any roadblocks if it hadn't been for Palestinian terrorsm in the first place.

Deporting families of of suicide bombers to gaza is one example of mass punishments


Your argumentation isn't relevant. Israel has existed for over 56 years as a Jewish state and the debate over weather it has a right to exist does not matter. What's so hard to understand?


Maybe its not relevant for you, but its relevant for me.



Treatment of the Palestinian isn't even a big part of why Palestinian terrorism exists. The majority of Palestinians belive that the goal of the "Intifadah" terror camping is the destruction of Israel, are you now going to argue with Palestinian people over this :cantbeli: :lol:


Well there have been several"Intifadah" and the last one started due to sharons excellent political skill :roll:

Not even the palestinians think they can crush israel, so fighting with the knowledge of not beeing able to win makes me wonder why otherwise they fight, well becausre of the miserble situation they are in, caused mainly by israel and the palestinian aithority



I wonder if your whole family was murderd in a suicied bombing you would think of it to be hilarious... :roll:


Ask yourself why people are willing to blow themselve up, palestinians are humans too, they also want to live, but when life itself has been made a nightmare then some weakminded people do these things, there are people that commit suicide in the USA because they are misereble

And as for hamas, i hold them also responsible fot the situation in israel. The thing is that you and other pro-israeli members here try to escape from ALL responsibility for the conflict and that is just sad.

[mi35d]

Mass Punishment would be bulldozing an entire Palestinian village because some teenagers violated curfew or threw rocks at IDF soldiers.

Then of course, you're free to start building a new Israeli settlement the next day...

I love the juvenile crap that is thrown at Ariweiner. I don't particulary support his more radical views but if all you can do is call him a Nazi or drop the F-Bomb half a dozen times, go back to playing your PS2.

This is a massively complex issue with varying viewpoints. Pull your heads out of your ass and have a civil discourse.

[Shadow]

lol
Palestinians use two main types of explosive: "home-made" TATP (triacetone triperoxide) aka. APEX

I would never try to make more than 5g at once. THAT is suicide. ;)
btw that stuff smells horrible when it detonated (but only when it detonates)

[big80a2]

Also the rathional thinking you(we) aply in the west aint the thinking jused in Arab/muslim culture.
Really? A few months ago in the area that I live in a 20 year old pulled out a handgun and shot some 14 year old kid dead. The reason given: he did not like the color of his shirt (which was red). Is this an example of Western rational thinking? Could I apply this example to all of the West and tell you that all westerners think like this? That's how you seem to regard the Arabs.
I think you don't undrstand what I mean. What I mean is the way of thinking like western culture and the arab culture. Western thinking is the so called "Greek" thinking an Arab have "Arabic"thinking. The greek way tries to rationelise everything and everything has to be proved (a verry good example of that is you ;) ) The arabic way has a more on the feeling thinking.. like 10 good things done 1 thing done bad afterwarths your bad but sometimes it's also 10 bad things 1 good and you'll get coffee :)

So maybe you have explenation for everything, but hey a palie only needs the words 72 virgins to change his mind...
Go through all the Jihadi sites (Listed here: http://www.haganah.us/jihadi/pij.html) and find me where they talk about 72 virgins as a reason to commit suicide.
well you are a funny guy, giving me links that for the biggest part don't work and those who do are in arabic so how am I supposed to scroll them. And it's quite common logic; if they muslimextremist say you will become marthyr when blowing yourself up and the coran states you will be rewared 72 virgins than that's the same :roll:

About right of return. IMO this could only happen when there is a seperate palie state. Also only the palies that have fled in the past (before 1967) can go back. It where there plans to leave and there children can't be acounted for there parents actions... so they have no right of return. That's quite acording to you stance on your own situation.
I'm not sure that I follow you. I know Palestinian refugees who still have the keys to their homes which used to be in Israel. The land and houses is still theirs. They have documentary evidence to prove it including land deeds. So the situation that you mention does not apply since ownership can easily be proved.well most of the indians are no more. There is enough documetery prove you live on stolen land, anyway go blame the germans that they in the first place murderd 6 million jews and after that there was this great need for a jewish homeland. And bythe way jews where forced from there land and often forced back to the land in the past centuary.

[big80a2]

Ask yourself why people are willing to blow themselve up, palestinians are humans too, they also want to live, but when life itself has been made a nightmare then some weakminded people do these things, there are people that commit suicide in the USA because they are misereble
well why are they promised 72 virgins than??? :roll: :roll: why do they kill fellow palies?? :roll: why do they kill christians? :roll: hmmz because mizerable lives. History and other points have proven that wrong.
The Palies have mizerable lives but as history has proved it's easy to point the finger and continue to opress your own people.
And as for hamas, i hold them also responsible fot the situation in israel. The thing is that you and other pro-israeli members here try to escape from ALL responsibility for the conflict and that is just sad.
Israel has responsebility's and in my eye's they doing better than other country's on there responsebillity's!! But ariwiener point's the finger toward israel all time... and that itself is getting antisemitic in a way.. :roll:
As long as you can balance your view it's oke
As long as you remind that the palies themself are opressed by there own leaders and that israel actions are in a way a katalysator in the conflict for the palies. so are the israeli actions nesecarry to endure israeli securety.
So it's about loosing on both sides. And when you lived there you would know what that means.

[alexjulian]

There have been many global conflicts around world where people suffer horrendously but they dont then go and blow themselves up and kill civilians.

If you follow that logic then for example the Jews would be blowing up Germans for the next 1000 years. Millions of Jews died in WWII but did you see Jews call for Germany to be eradicated.

[M_S]

There have been many global conflicts around world where people suffer horrendously but they dont then go and blow themselves up and kill civilians.

If you follow that logic then for example the Jews would be blowing up Germans for the next 1000 years. Millions of Jews died in WWII but did you see Jews call for Germany to be eradicated.


Considering the complexity of the situation in the middle east, your comparision is just ... :cantbeli: .....